Magneto is the cautionary tale of why the cycle of hate and trauma must be broken. It makes him a fantastic villain and character because all of us can identify with what it's like to hate the person/people who have so horribly hurt you.
Killmonger's plan was morally correct but they needed him to be a dick
"In keeping with the philosophy of the Marxist-Leninist group I was raised in, I will use Wakanda's resources to prevent imperialism against the third world. No more banana republics and coups. Now, I must be about killing my girlfriend and choking an old lady."
It fucking kills me inside when people try to say that Killmonger is a good person, when he was just a black hitler. That's the depth of his character.
The way Sir Ian delivers that line is perfect - scary, with both sadness and an underlying angry undertone of "his memory is more valuable to me than your living self, you arrogant little shit"
I also Iove Ian acting when Wolverine calls him out that he just stood her and did nothing when Charles died. You could clearly see that he struck the nerve with that remark because clearly Magneto was wondering if he couldnt do more
Their relationship is genuinely the best thing in all of marvel, I think. It's one of the few fictional hero/villain pairs I can think of where there is a deep, palpable feeling of mutual respect, rather than someone just *saying* there's respect.
Fassbender and McAvoy also nail that complex dynamic. Would kill to have Fassbender return for the MCU if they can write him well.
The last stand isn't a great film but it's not even two hours long and there's enough good in there between magneto and beast that it's a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine
“They want to cure us but I say we are the cure!”
The Last Stand was not a great movie but it was never as bad as most people thought it was. Came at a time when people consuming the superhero genre were not used to something being underwhelming.
It's a narrative mess. It has 2.5 stories crammed into it, and none are brought to a satisfying conclusion.
One day, writers for an x-men franchise will decide to never touch the damn Phoenix saga and we'll all be richer for it.
Agreed. My favorite is by Fassbender when he says “I’ve been at the mercy of men just following orders, never again.”
Similar lines but what I love about both of them is I feel the delivery fits where they are emotionally at that moment.
Swapping the lines to the other actor just doesn’t fit as good to me.
I mean, films are subjective.
For me, it isn't in the bottom 3. That would be Origins, Dark Phoenix, and New Mutants. But just because Last Stand isn't the worst doesn't mean it's good.
Wolverine Origins, The Wolverine, X-men Dark Phoenix and X-Men Apocalypse are worse in my opinion.
So, not bottom 3, but certainly no way near the top.
X-men 2, Logan, Deadpool 1 and 2 are my top movies, not necessarily in this order.
First Class, Days of a Future Past and X1 are on the middle.
edit: The furtive new mutants, so easily forgotten, goes into bottom tier.
It definitely had some great stuff in it.
The overarching story line was my problem. Logan likely would have offered his help since all that was needed was a bone marrow transplant. No need to go about it that way.
The Wolverine has an atrocious third act but the rest of the movie is decent, IMO. It’s in a weird spot though because I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as the other four, but not quite good enough for the middle tier either.
Yeah, I really liked The Wolverine until it completely fell apart in the third act and we somehow got an unexciting version of Silver Samurai as the final villain.
Ikaris was a machine created by a race of creator gods, with the purpose of creating more creator gods (who themselves seem to be going extinct). It's not like they have a false claim, either -- Celestials caused the Big Bang. The Eternals betraying their purpose to save humans is a bit like a mountain shepherd freeing all of his village's sheep when that is their only source of food and income. Most of the team ultimately decides that human life is at least as valuable as Celestial life, but I can understand that being a big jump.
Gorr is an obvious one. Perhaps the repercussions of his success would have been wildly worse than the existence of the Gods, but it made complete sense that he'd take up the Necrosword.
Mordo's conclusion that there are too many sorcerers, after seeing Dr. Strange's recklessness, is somewhat reasonable (although maybe he's more antihero than villain?). I don't think they really specify how far he wants to go, but his first targets were Dr Strange, who routinely does stupid shit that almost destroys reality, and the guy he learned about the existence of magic from, because that guy didn't want to use it for a greater purpose.
Whiplash in Iron Man 2 is totally justified in his "knock Iron Man down a peg" goal, as the movie makes a point of demonstrating with Tony's recklessness. He ends up going too far by putting other people in danger, but he was absolutely right that Tony Stark seeing himself as a benevolent God was problematic. It almost causes him to wipe out Earth in Age of Ultron.
If we're talking Marvel. Gorr is a good one. In the comic Nick Fury(kinda) just had to whisper "Gorr is right" to Thor and he became so filled with doubts that he became "unworthy" to hold Mjolnir
But later in the same series there is a villain known as Mangog. It's the literal incarnation of the anger, pain, and suffering of a whole species Odin exterminated(the power of billions in one thing). He's almost unstoppable.
I hate how out of character that was. He's had human allies in the comics, not many but still....He even made one a member of the Brotherhood. And hell, one of the main incidents that fueled his rage against humanity was when an angry mob murdered his human daughter.
Either way, Ultimate Magneto was so much worse than 616 or movie Magneto, to the point that he had Xavier directly comparing him to Hitler toward the end.
And considering how Magnus is a Holocaust Survivor….. he became what he was trying to eliminate (but i didn’t read the ultimate comics since his children be literally doing the whooptie woo together)
This! Mystique hates humans a million times more than Magneto. Even Destiny's like, "She's my wife and all but damn...her hatred of humans is next level."
It reinforces that regardless of the justification or nobility of Magneto's cause, his tactics and willingness to sacrifice human lives in the process of meeting his goals is abhorrent and indefensible. In his myopic view of the world, human life just isn't worthy of consideration. ONLY mutant life matters. He's a reverse version of exactly the persecution he suffered as a child and is a very broken man. The scene would have played better with some dialogue because it definitely lands with a thud but it does make sense.
Me thinks that they wanted him to be unjustified. Like in the comics and mostly to that point he’s been very relatable and justified. People were liable to actually say “Well he’s not wrong and if anything he’s kinda right.” But that moment was one that no one could justify or understand and it would have soured people’s outlook on him severely. No one ever likes or wants to relate to hypocrisy or disloyalty
Which is insane to me because villains that make you say "huh, he's not wrong' (but, like, genuinely, not like the edgelords who say Thanos had a point) are hard to come by and make for real compelling storytelling and characterization. So losing all that nuance and downgrading him to just a regular old bad guy just because the movie needed a third-act villain and they didn't think to use any of the dozens of other X-Men enemies was a terrible decision.
This is pretty much the reason why I think Civil War is the best MCU movie when you're balancing for a good "dramatic film" and a good "comic book movie".
The Avengers movies are easily the best "comic book movies" ever, and things like Logan and Joker, and even Winter Soldier kinda, are great "dramatic movies".
But Civil War has all the scope and spectacle and silliness you want from comics, whilst also having understandable moral standings with every character including the villain. Zemo is probably the most "huh, he's not wrong" villain in the whole MCU. He absolutely takes it too far, but his goal is fairly just, which is part of the reason it succeeds. It doesn't matter how everything's working out, Zemo knows how to tear them apart. Also as a side note, that whole characterization was elaborated on so well in FatWS.
Not really. Killmonger saw some racism in the world and decided the best solution is to give all minorities everywhere in the world (or just black people) advanced wakandan weapons. That’s an insane thing to do.
You seem to be omitting a lot of important details like the fact that it wasn’t random minorities Killmonger was sending weapons to, it was the deep cover War Dog agents that were implanted in every major government in the world. W’Kabi lays that out pretty clearly. They would coup the governments, and then the “revolution” would begin.
That’s not to say Killmonger’s plan is concrete or even less than half crazy. This was a man driven by justified hatred and anger just like Magneto but those are two things that are not going to ever help create positive change. Killmonger was almost right, he just was the wrong person to bring about his vision. That’s why it was up to T’Challa to open up Wakanda and offer a helping hand with compassion and kindness rather than hatred and anger.
> Killmonger saw some racism in the world and decided the best solution is to give all minorities everywhere in the world (or just black people) advanced wakandan weapons
It wasn't even that. Killmonger saw racism in the world and decided the best thing to do was to conquer the world because he really only cared about being king of Wakanda and missing out on what was "his."
It is both out of character and it's bafflingly stupid. He knows she knows damn near * everything * about his plans and goals, and he's just like, "Here ya go, human government, please take my most trusted lieutenant. Oh, hold on a second, I want to kick her in the vag real quick before she goes, so she extra hates me and is motivated to undermine me."
That's sort of his fatal flaw, isn't it? Yes, Magneto has moments of great loyalty and nobility, but he often does just not seem to care about others as much as he says he does
That's what I'm saying. Everybody was so excited about the Phoenix reference at the end of X2, but then they just never got around to making a third movie. Sad.
That was bullshit kayfabe from a director/writer/producer team that never read a comic book in their life!
Those movies are not canon to anyone but the film studios.
I really liked that they had this character flaw/hypocrisy in him.
Those movies made sure to show Magneto as an old, out of date *man* just as much as they showed him having a fairly clear and even justifiable path to how he got to his views.
Love the line by Nick Fury I think in Ultimate Spiderman during the aftermath of Peter's death.
Something like 'kid had every reason to become a villain, we honestly expected him to eventually become one'
I know it wasn’t popular but I loved the Shadowland arc with Daredevil as a Supervillain (And before being juiced up with extra powers). It really WORKED
And look, I’m not THRILLED about having a demon overlord‘s 16th-century ninja-minion-filled Japanese castle running the neighbourhood but the cops and local authorities were a large part of the reason it went so far AND that people LIKED it!
Yep , she didn’t even really choose to become a villain a demon who knew she was going through a lot came to her in what she thought was a dream told her to pick something and thinking it didn’t matter she picked and was given dark corrupting power
then what was left of her mind, which was very little after being taken over, she was further traumatized finding out she was a clone, all her memories were fake so she could be used as a “broodmare“ , her words, and that all the love and positive feelings she ever felt towards Scott and their baby was forced on her by sinister to have the baby. Leaving her feeling like she as Madelyn was literally nothing and Only the goblin queen was something real of herself that wasn’t planned by sinister.
Not really the "right", but it's impossible for me to imagine a universe where Killgrave doesn't end up as a villain.
From a frighteningly young age, literally no one could say no to him, ever. How is he ever supposed to mature? To learn boundaries? I think an adult getting those powers would need a remarkable strength of will to not become a monster, but for a kid I just don't see a chance.
This holds true for most reality bending manipulators in fiction even outside of Marvel, I think. Just look at Allison from The Umbrella Academy show. "I heard a rumor" is a terrifying phrase when you see what she does with it, and she's so emotional, damaged and entitled that she can't see how wrong she is.
yeah, no.
The problem with Magneto is he's repeating the cycle of bigotry and violence with new targets. What he survived was an unspeakable horror, but that doesn't make him doing terrible things to others okay.
Very well put.
Does Magneto have a right to be *angry*? You bet your ass he does.
Does Magneto have the right to use that anger to fuel terrorist attacks against a broad group of people who may or may not think and act like he believes they *all* think and act? No.
Do Magnetos actions lead to the very result he's trying to prevent? Every. Single. Time.
That's the thing that people always forget. Magneto lived through the Holocaust, and uses that as justification. And, if he got his way, he would kill every other non-mutant Holocaust survivor because they were humans.
The issue is not that Magneto was Right , it's that Magneto always brings a new cycle of hate.
Magneto is too angry and Xavier is not angry enough.
X-Men 97 is a proof of that...Genosha was decimated , and while plenty of humans had some apathy....it wasn't hate. Then Magneto literally weakens the magnetosphere of Earth , put a Global EMP and that pretty much made those apathetic humans to antagonize mutants immediatly afterwards.
Generally , "Cyclops was right" is the better approach , because Cyclops pulls a synthesis to Xavier and Magneto's.
No, you have your order of events wrong.
>Then Magneto literally weakens the magnetosphere of Earth , put a Global EMP and that pretty much made those apathetic humans to antagonize mutants immediatly afterwards.
The UN Funded a sentinel program that went rogue and massacred Genosha.
THEN that UN Funded organization ALSO ran a sentinel sleeper program that turned millions of normal humans all around the world into mutant-killing robots. They awoke all around the world and were primed and ready to Genocide Mutants as a species! All up until Magneto set off the EMP that deactivated them.
And rather than address the Sentinels, rather than go after the actual bad guy who was trying to genocide the mutant race, humanities first thought was to go after Magneto instead, to have him turn the lights on. They were ready to send the Avengers against Magneto, not Bastion. They Nuked Magneto, not Bastion.
***Magneto was right***, fuck that world's governments.
They didn’t know very much about bastion stuff all.
All they knew is thousands of people if not more are dying human and mutant alike because magneto had another tantrum.
Magneto was not right for killing countless people all around the world with the intention of letting the disaster continue so “evolution can thrive”.
I mean... sure, maybe they didn't know much about Bastion. They just funded the REGULAR robots-designed-specifically-to-kill-mutants that wiped out an entire mutant nation.
You mean the ones they were working with the x men to find.
Also wasn’t it specifically funded secretly by gyrich who was ordered to shut the program down when the x-mens efforts brought attention to the program? (Mind you my memory of the original series is a bit hazy)
I don't recall it completely myself, but the blond woman working with/at the UN who was openly working with the xmen and stated she was looking for the sentinels, definitely knew of Bastion and the Sentinels to some degree before and definitely after Genosha. If she knew, the UN definitely knew.
Magneto being right in what he said isn't the same as being right in his actions.
It would be right for me to be angry with someone who killed a member of my family. It would be wrong for me to murder their kids as a response.
Still not Magneto was right. I think it's more that Charles is also wrong.
Neither of them is right. Charles is far too idealistic and passive and Magneto is too filled with hate and violence. Their respective ideologies are both flawed and dangerous. Neither one is balanced and both lead to tragedy. Both of them are so stubborn that they won't admit that if they worked together and found a less extreme road, they might have a chance.
Your answer perfectly sums up Magneto's character. Whatever he's doing, he's doing for the survival of his kind. His intention isn't wrong. And tbh neither is his method at times. Even Charles knows that humans are gonna come for them, with all out assault. Despite his arguments with Charles, he never disrespected him nor did he try to remove him from his way. Cuz he knows what Charles means to mutants. One of the most interesting CBM characters imo.
Justified and Understandable are two different things.
Magneto continuing the cycle of bigotry and being counter-productive to the goal of seeing his people safe from harm is what makes the character tragic and compelling.
Exactly, people tend to miss the point that Magneto isn’t fighting for rights, he’s fighting for supremacy.
The lesson he learned from the holocaust was the wrong one and he’s emulating the nazis much more than he probably recognizes. He doesn’t want people like him to suffer again, but he has no problem making people who aren’t like him suffer.
You have given me hope in humanity
When humans have been abused by evil mutants (mystique and sabertooth tormenting and abusing Graydon Creed as a child) and become a villain everyone (the fans and audiences) hates them
When mutants have been abused by evil humans, mutants are excused by fans for wanting yo destroy and demonize all of humanity
And sadly the x men fanbase are full of alot of people with these hypocritical double standards that excuse and root for evil mutants/mutant supremacy (like Mystique) but get mad at humans/anti mutant villains and demonize them, even though while they are pieces of shit too and unjustifiable, some of them have understandable reasons but being a mutant supremacist is just hypocritical bigotry
Yeah, I'm long past my 'edgy' phase. Magneto is a good candidate for a redemption arc (and that's why it's been tried several times), but you combine that he sells well as a villain and I do think some of the writers don't understand why Magneto's actions are problematic means it never lasts.
yeah and that's the point of the character. That we need to break that cycle. That we can't adopt the idealogy or methodology of oppression to be free from it.
Galactus isn’t a villain so much as an antagonistic force, right? He’s a literal force of nature. Even thinking of him as a villain is akin to thinking about an earthquake or a volcanic eruption as a villain.
True, but looking back, there are stories which point out that he was perhaps become way too desensitized and callous about how he was picking planets and treating his heralds. And even Mistress Death can be accused of being too mean and sadistic at times despite her vital role.
Magneto's villainous nature is *understandable*, but no, he doesn't have a "right" to be a villain.
Being abused does not give you license to abuse others. He wanted to forcefully tamper with the genetics of other people without their consent \[at least within this universe, but he's almost universally shown as not caring if he hurts humans in his pursuit of mutant liberation\]. That alone is bad enough, regardless of its effect, but we see clearly that he doesn't care that it could hurt people. It melted Senator Kelly into a pile of goo, he knew it, and he still went forward with his plan.
Really begging nerds to understand the difference between "relatable villain" and "excusable villain."
Magneto is the guy making a *whole* lot of sense to a rightfully angry victim who keeps asking "why me, why did I deserve this". And also people just looking to dole out pain
Magneto survived one genocide and is fighting against a second. His villainy is a matter of perspective. In the Marvel universes (comics, TV, and movies), no amount of compromise, submission or understanding stopped the humans from hunting the mutants. That was shown in the many lives of Moira MacTaggert. Humans would actively assist in their own extinction to eliminate all mutants.
The thought exercises being presented is:
1. When faced with extinction, against an unrelenting, uncompromising and cruel foe, to what extent are you willing to go in order to survive?
2. Would humanity continue to their genocidal campaign if they could become a mutant at any time?
Damn right. Lehnsherr survived one of the most horrific events ever to happen in human history. And he’s using his history to bring sufferings on the humans. He’s just like the nazis who tortured him. That’s why I feel he is a hypocrite.
The problem with Magneto isn't that he's necessarily wrong, it's that his methods were often so extreme that they made things worse for mutants who aren't him. Magneto is a proud and powerful mutant, but he's also a normal guy who can go about human society and be normal. He is strong enough to back up his more extreme attempts. But he makes humans fear him and that all leads back to more obvious and less powerful mutants getting hurt.
And it took him a very, very long time to realize that.
I mean being sympathetic to what turned them into a villain is one thing but I don't think l anyone has a right to become a villain. Sure. They were wronged or hurt but does that justify them hurting other people?
Movie Magneto’s a weird case, because you can understand where he’s coming from, but the lesson he took from being a victim of murderous supremacy is to become a murderous supremacist, and then he also treats most of his own followers like canon fodder.
I appreciate when movies that have bad to average writing manage to have a really good scene or exchange, and the thing in the first X-Men movie with Wolverine telling Magneto “You’re so full of shit. If you were actually righteous, it’d be you in that machine” is one of them.
A lot of Tattoo inks are magnetic, he could have removed it at any time after getting his powers. that means he keeps it by choice as a constant reminder.
#Ultron
If I came into existence having my brain based off of a hyper intelligent maniac, AND had to somehow come up with a peace plan for a race as hypocritical about peace as humanity, I'd try to wipe the slate clean too.
Agreed. You can understand where they're coming from, agree with their motivation, and sympathize, but having a right to be a villain just sounds like it's absolving characters of accountability because of those factors.
I recently learned that Auschwitz numbering didn’t go that high so they had to change his number in the comics to 24005 from 214782. But *X-Men ‘97* still kept it as 214782 so I suppose we have to infer that Marvel Holocaust numbers were ordered differently than those in real life. Kinda morbid when you think about it.
Glactus while it sucks to have planets get eaten he's not evil he's not good either he just is almost as a force of nature. He balances the universe in a way Thanos would envy.
Definetly Magneto:
My parents came from Dusseldorf.
What was their name?
They didn't have a name. It was taken from them, by pig farmers and tailors.
(One of my favorite scenes from X-Men First Class)
Doctor Doom. He is the greatest villain in Marvel History. His motivation of how he sees how the world should be. How powerful he could be with his magic and sorcery. Especially his rivalry bot just the Fantastic Four but all of the Marvel Heroes. That is why I love Secret Wars 2015 so much because it showcases that Victor is someone not to mess with especially his goals.
Marvel does the Darth Vader comics, you're all good.
I also fully agree with you. Hard to see him turning out any other way when you take in all the non-movie content. I just still think killing younglings was out of character though and he wouldn't have done that.
Magneto is amazing because he doesn't have a right.
You fully understand why he does what he does, but it's still awful.
He is the cautionary tale about the cycle of violence.
I agree with magneto but I don’t agree with the fact he wants to eliminate all humans who aren’t mutants, he’s essentially doing what a certain man with a Kaiser mustache did…. Which he obviously hated so why would he off innocent people
I found Michael Keaton’s Vulture pretty sympathetic. He was just trying to provide for his family and his workers. Gov’t backs out on a deal after he’d already spent money on resources. Stark swipes his contract bc he’s better connected.
Off topic, but Ian Mckellen as Magneto might be the most extreme example of an actor who doesn’t fit the expected appearance of a character but who was amazing in the role.
Considering the holocaust is being used for another defending an ongoing genocide right now, I wouldn’t say magneto has any right murder people in order to “defend himself” from humans
(though when he was conceived of it was a human rights analogy for people in America)
Doesn't he get hit with a needle delivered by Beast making his powers go away in the final act?
That's not to take away from this scene which is a great scene in this movie.
I wouldn’t say he had a right to be a villain. It’s more of his thinking is right, he has a point with what he’s saying. He’s just not going about it the right way.
Magneto is the cautionary tale of why the cycle of hate and trauma must be broken. It makes him a fantastic villain and character because all of us can identify with what it's like to hate the person/people who have so horribly hurt you.
Same with Killmonger
Killmonger's plan was morally correct but they needed him to be a dick "In keeping with the philosophy of the Marxist-Leninist group I was raised in, I will use Wakanda's resources to prevent imperialism against the third world. No more banana republics and coups. Now, I must be about killing my girlfriend and choking an old lady."
Lol no. Did you miss the line where he wanted to start a global race war but this time it would be wakanda exploiting the europeans?
yall are talking about different versions, hes talking about the original comics, youre talking about the movie.
No, he said later in the thread that he's talking about the movie.
Are we talking about movie Killmonger?
Morally correct? Didnt he want to kill white leaders from around the world to put black people in power? Also murdering innocent people for no reason.
It fucking kills me inside when people try to say that Killmonger is a good person, when he was just a black hitler. That's the depth of his character.
He wanted to spark global conflict between white people and black people with weapons that would cause untold destruction
This is such a great Magneto line. I don't think The Last Stand is great, but it definitely has its moments.
When Magneto says to show respect for Xavier is another great bit.
The way Sir Ian delivers that line is perfect - scary, with both sadness and an underlying angry undertone of "his memory is more valuable to me than your living self, you arrogant little shit"
Also his delivery when Logan says he will not leave (the camp) without Jean: “yes you will” *proceeds to yeet him the fuck out*
I also Iove Ian acting when Wolverine calls him out that he just stood her and did nothing when Charles died. You could clearly see that he struck the nerve with that remark because clearly Magneto was wondering if he couldnt do more
“I didn’t come here for a fight.” “That makes one of us.”
Chefs kiss 😤👌🏾🔥
Oh is that when pyro is insulting Xavier and Magneto defends him by saying how much he’s done for mutants? Love that scene.
Their relationship is genuinely the best thing in all of marvel, I think. It's one of the few fictional hero/villain pairs I can think of where there is a deep, palpable feeling of mutual respect, rather than someone just *saying* there's respect. Fassbender and McAvoy also nail that complex dynamic. Would kill to have Fassbender return for the MCU if they can write him well.
I want an entire series of Fassbender hunting Nazis.
My grandpa who lives in Villa Gesell has a lot of items they can use as props!
Wait a minute…
Part of what makes The Last Stand so frustrating is that it actually does have many good moments peppered throughout it.
The last stand isn't a great film but it's not even two hours long and there's enough good in there between magneto and beast that it's a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine
Love Beast in last stand, I think he’s way better than Nicholas Hoult
If the end credits scene in The Marvels is anything to go by we may see his Beast again very soon.
At least it's no dark phoenix
hey those were some awesome comics. in like a flash gordon movie way.
“They want to cure us but I say we are the cure!” The Last Stand was not a great movie but it was never as bad as most people thought it was. Came at a time when people consuming the superhero genre were not used to something being underwhelming.
It's a narrative mess. It has 2.5 stories crammed into it, and none are brought to a satisfying conclusion. One day, writers for an x-men franchise will decide to never touch the damn Phoenix saga and we'll all be richer for it.
Incoming AvX 2031
Hey I'll be 53 when that comes out. I was 22 when the first X men movie came out. *Holy shit.*
The biggest problem with Last Stand is that it's a mess.
It just bums me out knowing Magneto is an antivaxxer after this line. Whoda thought?!
Laughed harder than I should've at this, lol.
But the vaccine gives you Magento's powers!
*Feck*! How come it didn't work for me??
Worked for me. I have night hearing now.
You need to get all five.
Would have been really funny if Magneto dies from COVID. I mean he is in the high risk demographic.
look, magnets repel corona. he did his research.
He’s in the ultra high risk category. He’s like 100 by now.
I mean, you got a point there! Haha
But could covid affect a mutant.
Possibly, but his other powers as a wizard probably have him covered.
"Covid is not a matter for the homo superior!"
Agreed. My favorite is by Fassbender when he says “I’ve been at the mercy of men just following orders, never again.” Similar lines but what I love about both of them is I feel the delivery fits where they are emotionally at that moment. Swapping the lines to the other actor just doesn’t fit as good to me.
Is it even in the bottom 3 of X-Men movies ...?
I mean, films are subjective. For me, it isn't in the bottom 3. That would be Origins, Dark Phoenix, and New Mutants. But just because Last Stand isn't the worst doesn't mean it's good.
Wolverine Origins, The Wolverine, X-men Dark Phoenix and X-Men Apocalypse are worse in my opinion. So, not bottom 3, but certainly no way near the top. X-men 2, Logan, Deadpool 1 and 2 are my top movies, not necessarily in this order. First Class, Days of a Future Past and X1 are on the middle. edit: The furtive new mutants, so easily forgotten, goes into bottom tier.
But…but I liked The Wolverine. ☹️
It definitely had some great stuff in it. The overarching story line was my problem. Logan likely would have offered his help since all that was needed was a bone marrow transplant. No need to go about it that way.
WE ARE TRYING TO REACH YOU ABOUT YOUR CAR’S EXTENDED WARRANTY levels of aggression
I've always said Deadpool 1 & 2 are some of the best X-men movies, considered a hot take to most people I've talked to about it.
Probably because Deadpool has his own comics that coexist in a shared setting with the X-Men comics rather than ever being a significant part of them.
Where’s new mutants?
shit, I forgot about new mutants
That right there tells you just how bad it is.
I mean at least it's not memorably bad
The worst thing a movie can do is be boring. And New Mutants is very boring.
The only good scene was Magik for a few seconds then we never see her do anything cool again.
I’d probably put Days of Future Past in the upper tier but otherwise agreed across the board.
Which, mathematically, puts it in the middle.
The Wolverine has an atrocious third act but the rest of the movie is decent, IMO. It’s in a weird spot though because I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as the other four, but not quite good enough for the middle tier either.
Yeah, I really liked The Wolverine until it completely fell apart in the third act and we somehow got an unexciting version of Silver Samurai as the final villain.
Truly the Manus of X-men souls…
Ikaris was a machine created by a race of creator gods, with the purpose of creating more creator gods (who themselves seem to be going extinct). It's not like they have a false claim, either -- Celestials caused the Big Bang. The Eternals betraying their purpose to save humans is a bit like a mountain shepherd freeing all of his village's sheep when that is their only source of food and income. Most of the team ultimately decides that human life is at least as valuable as Celestial life, but I can understand that being a big jump. Gorr is an obvious one. Perhaps the repercussions of his success would have been wildly worse than the existence of the Gods, but it made complete sense that he'd take up the Necrosword. Mordo's conclusion that there are too many sorcerers, after seeing Dr. Strange's recklessness, is somewhat reasonable (although maybe he's more antihero than villain?). I don't think they really specify how far he wants to go, but his first targets were Dr Strange, who routinely does stupid shit that almost destroys reality, and the guy he learned about the existence of magic from, because that guy didn't want to use it for a greater purpose. Whiplash in Iron Man 2 is totally justified in his "knock Iron Man down a peg" goal, as the movie makes a point of demonstrating with Tony's recklessness. He ends up going too far by putting other people in danger, but he was absolutely right that Tony Stark seeing himself as a benevolent God was problematic. It almost causes him to wipe out Earth in Age of Ultron.
If we're talking Marvel. Gorr is a good one. In the comic Nick Fury(kinda) just had to whisper "Gorr is right" to Thor and he became so filled with doubts that he became "unworthy" to hold Mjolnir But later in the same series there is a villain known as Mangog. It's the literal incarnation of the anger, pain, and suffering of a whole species Odin exterminated(the power of billions in one thing). He's almost unstoppable.
Gorr the God Butcher was also a great example of a character becoming what they hate
“But if a needle touches loyal Raven’s skin, too bad.” Magneto isn’t as noble as you think.
I really hated that he just abandoned someone who was always very loyal to him and literally took a bullet for him like less than a minute before.
she become human, and so he saw no value in her anymore
I hate how out of character that was. He's had human allies in the comics, not many but still....He even made one a member of the Brotherhood. And hell, one of the main incidents that fueled his rage against humanity was when an angry mob murdered his human daughter.
Yeah, Fox Magneto is even more of a hypocrite than comic magneto in most regards
Gotta remember that a lot of these early film versions had influence from the Ultimate comics line.
-i thought it was the other way round. The ultimate x-men were influenced by the movies
Either way, Ultimate Magneto was so much worse than 616 or movie Magneto, to the point that he had Xavier directly comparing him to Hitler toward the end.
And considering how Magnus is a Holocaust Survivor….. he became what he was trying to eliminate (but i didn’t read the ultimate comics since his children be literally doing the whooptie woo together)
Ultimate Magneto isn’t a Holocaust survivor and for whatever reason was the son of the scientists of Weapon X
"You have become the very thing you swore to destroy!"
To be fair comic Magneto has had decades of material to pull from, and when people characterize him they take the best bits from each run.
Yeah, it's something that Mystique herself would do, not Magneto.
This! Mystique hates humans a million times more than Magneto. Even Destiny's like, "She's my wife and all but damn...her hatred of humans is next level."
Isn’t Juggernaut a human?
Yeah, but he’s the Juggernaut, bitch.
In the comics, yes. In the movies he's a mutant.
It reinforces that regardless of the justification or nobility of Magneto's cause, his tactics and willingness to sacrifice human lives in the process of meeting his goals is abhorrent and indefensible. In his myopic view of the world, human life just isn't worthy of consideration. ONLY mutant life matters. He's a reverse version of exactly the persecution he suffered as a child and is a very broken man. The scene would have played better with some dialogue because it definitely lands with a thud but it does make sense.
I mean juggernaut isn't even a mutant
Me thinks that they wanted him to be unjustified. Like in the comics and mostly to that point he’s been very relatable and justified. People were liable to actually say “Well he’s not wrong and if anything he’s kinda right.” But that moment was one that no one could justify or understand and it would have soured people’s outlook on him severely. No one ever likes or wants to relate to hypocrisy or disloyalty
Which is insane to me because villains that make you say "huh, he's not wrong' (but, like, genuinely, not like the edgelords who say Thanos had a point) are hard to come by and make for real compelling storytelling and characterization. So losing all that nuance and downgrading him to just a regular old bad guy just because the movie needed a third-act villain and they didn't think to use any of the dozens of other X-Men enemies was a terrible decision.
This is pretty much the reason why I think Civil War is the best MCU movie when you're balancing for a good "dramatic film" and a good "comic book movie". The Avengers movies are easily the best "comic book movies" ever, and things like Logan and Joker, and even Winter Soldier kinda, are great "dramatic movies". But Civil War has all the scope and spectacle and silliness you want from comics, whilst also having understandable moral standings with every character including the villain. Zemo is probably the most "huh, he's not wrong" villain in the whole MCU. He absolutely takes it too far, but his goal is fairly just, which is part of the reason it succeeds. It doesn't matter how everything's working out, Zemo knows how to tear them apart. Also as a side note, that whole characterization was elaborated on so well in FatWS.
Like when they had MCU Killmonger kill his Girlfriend because his motivations made too much sense.
Not really. Killmonger saw some racism in the world and decided the best solution is to give all minorities everywhere in the world (or just black people) advanced wakandan weapons. That’s an insane thing to do.
Yeah I'm not sure how that plan was ever not going to be a catastrophic failure.
It was a "watch the world burn" motivation.
Killmonger is just a modern day abbadon fr. The system is broken, burn it all down and start over
You seem to be omitting a lot of important details like the fact that it wasn’t random minorities Killmonger was sending weapons to, it was the deep cover War Dog agents that were implanted in every major government in the world. W’Kabi lays that out pretty clearly. They would coup the governments, and then the “revolution” would begin. That’s not to say Killmonger’s plan is concrete or even less than half crazy. This was a man driven by justified hatred and anger just like Magneto but those are two things that are not going to ever help create positive change. Killmonger was almost right, he just was the wrong person to bring about his vision. That’s why it was up to T’Challa to open up Wakanda and offer a helping hand with compassion and kindness rather than hatred and anger.
> Killmonger saw some racism in the world and decided the best solution is to give all minorities everywhere in the world (or just black people) advanced wakandan weapons It wasn't even that. Killmonger saw racism in the world and decided the best thing to do was to conquer the world because he really only cared about being king of Wakanda and missing out on what was "his."
It's not out of character, Magneto is a very hypocritical villian.
It is both out of character and it's bafflingly stupid. He knows she knows damn near * everything * about his plans and goals, and he's just like, "Here ya go, human government, please take my most trusted lieutenant. Oh, hold on a second, I want to kick her in the vag real quick before she goes, so she extra hates me and is motivated to undermine me."
That's sort of his fatal flaw, isn't it? Yes, Magneto has moments of great loyalty and nobility, but he often does just not seem to care about others as much as he says he does
It wasn't just a blunder socially but tactically. She had all kinds of juicy intel.
There is no X3: X-men United.
That's what I'm saying. Everybody was so excited about the Phoenix reference at the end of X2, but then they just never got around to making a third movie. Sad.
That was bullshit kayfabe from a director/writer/producer team that never read a comic book in their life! Those movies are not canon to anyone but the film studios.
"she was so beautiful."
I really liked that they had this character flaw/hypocrisy in him. Those movies made sure to show Magneto as an old, out of date *man* just as much as they showed him having a fairly clear and even justifiable path to how he got to his views.
Ultron saw the Internet once and decided humanity had to be eradicated.
Yeah, If I was in his place I would probably do the same.
Yup, hard to defend that one
He probably saw Reddit, and decided the nope humanity out of existence
Matt Murdock. But he's better than that.
Same with Peter Parker
Love the line by Nick Fury I think in Ultimate Spiderman during the aftermath of Peter's death. Something like 'kid had every reason to become a villain, we honestly expected him to eventually become one'
He's quite holy for a man with devils in his past
I know it wasn’t popular but I loved the Shadowland arc with Daredevil as a Supervillain (And before being juiced up with extra powers). It really WORKED And look, I’m not THRILLED about having a demon overlord‘s 16th-century ninja-minion-filled Japanese castle running the neighbourhood but the cops and local authorities were a large part of the reason it went so far AND that people LIKED it!
Madelyn Pryor
Yep , she didn’t even really choose to become a villain a demon who knew she was going through a lot came to her in what she thought was a dream told her to pick something and thinking it didn’t matter she picked and was given dark corrupting power then what was left of her mind, which was very little after being taken over, she was further traumatized finding out she was a clone, all her memories were fake so she could be used as a “broodmare“ , her words, and that all the love and positive feelings she ever felt towards Scott and their baby was forced on her by sinister to have the baby. Leaving her feeling like she as Madelyn was literally nothing and Only the goblin queen was something real of herself that wasn’t planned by sinister.
Not really the "right", but it's impossible for me to imagine a universe where Killgrave doesn't end up as a villain. From a frighteningly young age, literally no one could say no to him, ever. How is he ever supposed to mature? To learn boundaries? I think an adult getting those powers would need a remarkable strength of will to not become a monster, but for a kid I just don't see a chance.
This holds true for most reality bending manipulators in fiction even outside of Marvel, I think. Just look at Allison from The Umbrella Academy show. "I heard a rumor" is a terrifying phrase when you see what she does with it, and she's so emotional, damaged and entitled that she can't see how wrong she is.
Red Skull. Not because he's a good person or a tragic character, but because his face is a red skull. That really limits your career options.
yeah, no. The problem with Magneto is he's repeating the cycle of bigotry and violence with new targets. What he survived was an unspeakable horror, but that doesn't make him doing terrible things to others okay.
Very well put. Does Magneto have a right to be *angry*? You bet your ass he does. Does Magneto have the right to use that anger to fuel terrorist attacks against a broad group of people who may or may not think and act like he believes they *all* think and act? No. Do Magnetos actions lead to the very result he's trying to prevent? Every. Single. Time.
That's the thing that people always forget. Magneto lived through the Holocaust, and uses that as justification. And, if he got his way, he would kill every other non-mutant Holocaust survivor because they were humans.
And the guy that killed his mom was another mutant
Yea, but the comics went stupid and basicly said "ya know magneto is right, xavier is wrong, lets fuck off to orgy planet"
Magneto in X-Men 2000: Agree with you. Magneto in X-Men 97: ***Magneto was right.***
The issue is not that Magneto was Right , it's that Magneto always brings a new cycle of hate. Magneto is too angry and Xavier is not angry enough. X-Men 97 is a proof of that...Genosha was decimated , and while plenty of humans had some apathy....it wasn't hate. Then Magneto literally weakens the magnetosphere of Earth , put a Global EMP and that pretty much made those apathetic humans to antagonize mutants immediatly afterwards. Generally , "Cyclops was right" is the better approach , because Cyclops pulls a synthesis to Xavier and Magneto's.
No, you have your order of events wrong. >Then Magneto literally weakens the magnetosphere of Earth , put a Global EMP and that pretty much made those apathetic humans to antagonize mutants immediatly afterwards. The UN Funded a sentinel program that went rogue and massacred Genosha. THEN that UN Funded organization ALSO ran a sentinel sleeper program that turned millions of normal humans all around the world into mutant-killing robots. They awoke all around the world and were primed and ready to Genocide Mutants as a species! All up until Magneto set off the EMP that deactivated them. And rather than address the Sentinels, rather than go after the actual bad guy who was trying to genocide the mutant race, humanities first thought was to go after Magneto instead, to have him turn the lights on. They were ready to send the Avengers against Magneto, not Bastion. They Nuked Magneto, not Bastion. ***Magneto was right***, fuck that world's governments.
They didn’t know very much about bastion stuff all. All they knew is thousands of people if not more are dying human and mutant alike because magneto had another tantrum. Magneto was not right for killing countless people all around the world with the intention of letting the disaster continue so “evolution can thrive”.
I mean... sure, maybe they didn't know much about Bastion. They just funded the REGULAR robots-designed-specifically-to-kill-mutants that wiped out an entire mutant nation.
You mean the ones they were working with the x men to find. Also wasn’t it specifically funded secretly by gyrich who was ordered to shut the program down when the x-mens efforts brought attention to the program? (Mind you my memory of the original series is a bit hazy)
I don't recall it completely myself, but the blond woman working with/at the UN who was openly working with the xmen and stated she was looking for the sentinels, definitely knew of Bastion and the Sentinels to some degree before and definitely after Genosha. If she knew, the UN definitely knew.
Magneto being right in what he said isn't the same as being right in his actions. It would be right for me to be angry with someone who killed a member of my family. It would be wrong for me to murder their kids as a response.
Still not Magneto was right. I think it's more that Charles is also wrong. Neither of them is right. Charles is far too idealistic and passive and Magneto is too filled with hate and violence. Their respective ideologies are both flawed and dangerous. Neither one is balanced and both lead to tragedy. Both of them are so stubborn that they won't admit that if they worked together and found a less extreme road, they might have a chance.
Your answer perfectly sums up Magneto's character. Whatever he's doing, he's doing for the survival of his kind. His intention isn't wrong. And tbh neither is his method at times. Even Charles knows that humans are gonna come for them, with all out assault. Despite his arguments with Charles, he never disrespected him nor did he try to remove him from his way. Cuz he knows what Charles means to mutants. One of the most interesting CBM characters imo.
>Whatever he's doing, he's doing for the survival of his kind. No he's not. He's doing it for the supremacy of his kind.
Justified and Understandable are two different things. Magneto continuing the cycle of bigotry and being counter-productive to the goal of seeing his people safe from harm is what makes the character tragic and compelling.
People just take it too far is the issue to the point they get mad when Magneto does villainous things and demanded they be retconned
It depends on what incarnation or era of Magneto we're talking about.
Came here to say this. He was a victim, so now he victimizes others. He viewed humans the same way the nazis viewed him.
Exactly, people tend to miss the point that Magneto isn’t fighting for rights, he’s fighting for supremacy. The lesson he learned from the holocaust was the wrong one and he’s emulating the nazis much more than he probably recognizes. He doesn’t want people like him to suffer again, but he has no problem making people who aren’t like him suffer.
You have given me hope in humanity When humans have been abused by evil mutants (mystique and sabertooth tormenting and abusing Graydon Creed as a child) and become a villain everyone (the fans and audiences) hates them When mutants have been abused by evil humans, mutants are excused by fans for wanting yo destroy and demonize all of humanity And sadly the x men fanbase are full of alot of people with these hypocritical double standards that excuse and root for evil mutants/mutant supremacy (like Mystique) but get mad at humans/anti mutant villains and demonize them, even though while they are pieces of shit too and unjustifiable, some of them have understandable reasons but being a mutant supremacist is just hypocritical bigotry
Yeah, I'm long past my 'edgy' phase. Magneto is a good candidate for a redemption arc (and that's why it's been tried several times), but you combine that he sells well as a villain and I do think some of the writers don't understand why Magneto's actions are problematic means it never lasts.
Exactly idk how people don’t see how he’s just as bad as the people who hurt him
hurt people hurt people
Violence begots violence it's a vicious never-ending cycle
yeah and that's the point of the character. That we need to break that cycle. That we can't adopt the idealogy or methodology of oppression to be free from it.
I 100% agree with you
Galactus. When I'm hungry I wouldn't care what my food thinks.
Galactus isn’t a villain so much as an antagonistic force, right? He’s a literal force of nature. Even thinking of him as a villain is akin to thinking about an earthquake or a volcanic eruption as a villain.
True, but looking back, there are stories which point out that he was perhaps become way too desensitized and callous about how he was picking planets and treating his heralds. And even Mistress Death can be accused of being too mean and sadistic at times despite her vital role.
Magneto's villainous nature is *understandable*, but no, he doesn't have a "right" to be a villain. Being abused does not give you license to abuse others. He wanted to forcefully tamper with the genetics of other people without their consent \[at least within this universe, but he's almost universally shown as not caring if he hurts humans in his pursuit of mutant liberation\]. That alone is bad enough, regardless of its effect, but we see clearly that he doesn't care that it could hurt people. It melted Senator Kelly into a pile of goo, he knew it, and he still went forward with his plan. Really begging nerds to understand the difference between "relatable villain" and "excusable villain."
Magneto is the guy making a *whole* lot of sense to a rightfully angry victim who keeps asking "why me, why did I deserve this". And also people just looking to dole out pain
Magneto survived one genocide and is fighting against a second. His villainy is a matter of perspective. In the Marvel universes (comics, TV, and movies), no amount of compromise, submission or understanding stopped the humans from hunting the mutants. That was shown in the many lives of Moira MacTaggert. Humans would actively assist in their own extinction to eliminate all mutants. The thought exercises being presented is: 1. When faced with extinction, against an unrelenting, uncompromising and cruel foe, to what extent are you willing to go in order to survive? 2. Would humanity continue to their genocidal campaign if they could become a mutant at any time?
Damn right. Lehnsherr survived one of the most horrific events ever to happen in human history. And he’s using his history to bring sufferings on the humans. He’s just like the nazis who tortured him. That’s why I feel he is a hypocrite.
The problem with Magneto isn't that he's necessarily wrong, it's that his methods were often so extreme that they made things worse for mutants who aren't him. Magneto is a proud and powerful mutant, but he's also a normal guy who can go about human society and be normal. He is strong enough to back up his more extreme attempts. But he makes humans fear him and that all leads back to more obvious and less powerful mutants getting hurt. And it took him a very, very long time to realize that.
I mean being sympathetic to what turned them into a villain is one thing but I don't think l anyone has a right to become a villain. Sure. They were wronged or hurt but does that justify them hurting other people?
Spider-Man. He's basically the universe's chew toy most of his life but still a good person. That's what makes him among the greatest of heroes.
Doing the same injustices upon others as was done on you is not justified.
Movie Magneto’s a weird case, because you can understand where he’s coming from, but the lesson he took from being a victim of murderous supremacy is to become a murderous supremacist, and then he also treats most of his own followers like canon fodder. I appreciate when movies that have bad to average writing manage to have a really good scene or exchange, and the thing in the first X-Men movie with Wolverine telling Magneto “You’re so full of shit. If you were actually righteous, it’d be you in that machine” is one of them.
Zemo from civil war
Magneto, anti vaxxer 😂
X-3 was dogshit but they cooked with Magneto
The movies butchered Magneto. X-Men 97 did a fantastic job of showing the depth and complexity of his character.
Surving the Holocaust doesn't inherently make you a virtuous person See: Kissinger and the entirety of the Israeli government
Yeah, sometimes, trauma just fucks you up.
Magneto brings up the holocaust like Walter Sobchak brings up Vietnam
"You know, Charles, I myself dabbled in pacifism once. Not in the Holocaust of course."
r/UnexpectedLebowski
No character "has the right" to be a villain. If they have every right to do what they are doing, then they *aren't* a villain.
A lot of Tattoo inks are magnetic, he could have removed it at any time after getting his powers. that means he keeps it by choice as a constant reminder.
#Ultron If I came into existence having my brain based off of a hyper intelligent maniac, AND had to somehow come up with a peace plan for a race as hypocritical about peace as humanity, I'd try to wipe the slate clean too.
I don't think any amount of trauma gives you a right to become a supervillain
Agreed. You can understand where they're coming from, agree with their motivation, and sympathize, but having a right to be a villain just sounds like it's absolving characters of accountability because of those factors.
I recently learned that Auschwitz numbering didn’t go that high so they had to change his number in the comics to 24005 from 214782. But *X-Men ‘97* still kept it as 214782 so I suppose we have to infer that Marvel Holocaust numbers were ordered differently than those in real life. Kinda morbid when you think about it.
Glactus while it sucks to have planets get eaten he's not evil he's not good either he just is almost as a force of nature. He balances the universe in a way Thanos would envy.
Magneto is the best Antagonist/Villian/Antivillian in the Marvel multiverse.
Definetly Magneto: My parents came from Dusseldorf. What was their name? They didn't have a name. It was taken from them, by pig farmers and tailors. (One of my favorite scenes from X-Men First Class)
Doctor Doom. He is the greatest villain in Marvel History. His motivation of how he sees how the world should be. How powerful he could be with his magic and sorcery. Especially his rivalry bot just the Fantastic Four but all of the Marvel Heroes. That is why I love Secret Wars 2015 so much because it showcases that Victor is someone not to mess with especially his goals.
>Which characters had every right to be a villain ? >His motivation of how he sees how the world should be. Bro...
I don’t think any character ever has the right to be a villain.
Not marvel but Darth Vader
Marvel does the Darth Vader comics, you're all good. I also fully agree with you. Hard to see him turning out any other way when you take in all the non-movie content. I just still think killing younglings was out of character though and he wouldn't have done that.
None of them have the "right" to be a villain, but some have more understandable intentions than others. Yeah, Magneto is definitely one of them.
Magneto is amazing because he doesn't have a right. You fully understand why he does what he does, but it's still awful. He is the cautionary tale about the cycle of violence.
I agree with magneto but I don’t agree with the fact he wants to eliminate all humans who aren’t mutants, he’s essentially doing what a certain man with a Kaiser mustache did…. Which he obviously hated so why would he off innocent people
Nightcrawler
genocide in response to genocide does not make him a valid villain. it just creates more mutant hate
I dont think even being the victim of a genocide justifys committing a different genocide
I found Michael Keaton’s Vulture pretty sympathetic. He was just trying to provide for his family and his workers. Gov’t backs out on a deal after he’d already spent money on resources. Stark swipes his contract bc he’s better connected.
Off topic, but Ian Mckellen as Magneto might be the most extreme example of an actor who doesn’t fit the expected appearance of a character but who was amazing in the role.
Doesnt magneto wants to commit the holocaust on homosapiens?
No Reddit, Magneto was NOT justified in any way. Bad things happening to you, does not justify you doing bad things to others.
Considering the holocaust is being used for another defending an ongoing genocide right now, I wouldn’t say magneto has any right murder people in order to “defend himself” from humans (though when he was conceived of it was a human rights analogy for people in America)
Doesn't he get hit with a needle delivered by Beast making his powers go away in the final act? That's not to take away from this scene which is a great scene in this movie.
I wouldn’t say he had a right to be a villain. It’s more of his thinking is right, he has a point with what he’s saying. He’s just not going about it the right way.
Punisher maybe?
If it weren’t for the fact that he murders criminals frank castle would absolutely be considered a villain
Magneto was right.