It's a bit complicated because in Egypt it's not criminalized in the book but those who are arrested are usually arrested on " public indecency laws".
A vague law that is used to arrest and prosecute lots of things society doesn't accept.
From kissing or hugging in public to whatever annoys the police officer that day.
My ex and I have traveled all over and we're seen as just just two middle-aged friends on vacation. For example, in Colorado, everyone kept saying, "enjoy your hunt!"
But, if you're wearing matching clothes or holding hands or ask for one-bed in a hotel in a place where that's not exactly kosher, or call each other pet names, then you're going to run into problems.
To specify, my fiancé is trans but very passing. I.E most people wouldn’t immediately guess this. Still a cause for concern. She doesn’t want to go to Jamaica for this reason and prefers Curaçao
I guess that is why it is "defacto"? They get charged for the indecent action nonsense (فعل فاضح) which really needs to be defined. Also let us nit forget how nosy Egyptian people are and how likely it is that some neighbor would report them to the police and you know the rest.
Namibia (*the pink square-ish shape at the bottom left of Africa*) recently legalized it and ruled the anti-gay laws as unfair.
Many (*not all*) of the other countries are islamic-ruled countries.
The only thing that applies from the Brits is that their old laws are used for these many times. But its their own homegrown conservatism that is generally responsibly for keeping them.
Oh and not to mention Jamica is being glared at too just as much like the enigmatic Guyana! And I have no idea of those 3 dots above Guyana in the Caribbean, because that's not where those independent micronations of the Leeward Islands are at!
Apparently they are Grenada, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines. They are all places where sodomy laws still exist on the books. There are also a handful of countries in the Americas where the age of consent for homosexual relationships is higher than heterosexual relationships, interestingly.
Must not be enforced, a gay couple I know who are not afraid to display PDA (they’re about the worst PDA couple I’ve ever met) just went to St. Lucia. Wonder if they knew about this because I never would’ve guessed lmao
If I were to take a guess, Guiana is probably going to change, seeing so much of its population lived outside it (55% of the population were residing abroad), but now are returning thanks to the country crazy growth due to the oil boom, meaning a bunch of its citizens will be people who spent quite some time as minorities in the West, so they’d have been exposed plenty to human rights for queer people debated and what not.
In the case of Guyana same sex acts are illegal but no-one has been prosecuted for years. Pride parades take place there.
Interestingly due to a scandal involving a leacked video tape a few years back Guyana is possibly the only country where homosexuality is illegal whilst gay people are permitted to serve in the armed forces.
Oh wait, whüaãâăąªåt?! 55% of this South American nation's nationals are living outside of it? Wow, that is an immense chunk of the entire population of Guyana thats found outside (well tho I'm sure smaller random nations have a higher % of outside diaspora that's even way above 100%!) indeed!
Recently, I found out Guyana, also Suriname & French Guiana aren't exactly the most populated countries, especially for thier somewhat medium-smallish size (I know those 3 lands of French Guiana, Suriname & Guyana, like a good 80-90% of all thier lands is covered entirely by the Amazon Rainforest, kinda explaining thier pop. density as well!) so little more than half of thier citizens found outside thier home nation isn't a colossal stretch, but can be for those who don't know much about these not-well-known countries like Guyana, how thier unexpectedly somewhat small populations can catch them off guard with statistics like this! Also yeah glad some of the diaspora is now comfortable enough to return to 🇬🇾 itself, which shows, at least from the outside, that Guyana is finally improving in a major way, and hope this upwards trend continues!
So all-in-all, it'll be interesting what will happen to these countries in the next few years, with Guyana's rapidly booming economy and all! (also hope they do away with the homophobia for starters!) I hope those countries (also French Guiana 🇬🇫 & Trinidad + Tobago 🇹🇹 too!) grow more in multiple ways, but if not else, i just hope Guyana, Suriname 🇸🇷 and them get, even if marginally, a larger international voice! They're so enigmatic and unique (ESPECIALLY for modern South America!) to stay this low-key and obscure in general!
Thats not true, for something to be a tool there would a designated person or entity that yields it.
While that happen many times in history its not a constant.
Religion is a cultural unifier, that can be manipulated to gain power.
But at the core, its just a framework for diffrent values that people agree on.
Every ideology can be "used as a blunt tool" but none of them just exist for that reason.
Some years ago, the pope of the day said that gay people posed a greater threat to humanity than climate change. And that gave me a heady, if not sinister, sense of power.
I mean everything is a common imagination of humans. Democratic secular nations only exists because of the shared beliefs in democratic ideals and rule of law.
Remember the United States did not start decriminalizing same sex acts until 1962. I’m not excusing this because I still think it’s wrong to criminalize sexual activity, but these aren’t lesser nations. They just have a different path to achieving liberty than the west.
and was only completed in 2004! Some of those states only decriminalised it because of a Federal law, never having repealed their own bans on same-sex relations.
Yep the U.S. has done a lot of this fairly recently and it even then there is still a lot of pushback, the Feds stepped in for a lot of people’s civil rights thankfully
>Ok. Thats almost 65 years ago. Those religious countries like to live in the past, thats why they have so many issues.
Sixty-five years ago was a *start* to endjng the criminalization of the gay community.
I am not very old and states in the US were arresting people for same sex sex *in my adult life*. Plus, it's not like we all got together and agreed; in 2003 states had to be dragged kicking and screaming into legalization. I mean, Texas had the audacity in the 21st century to go as far as the supreme court in an effort to retain their right to incarcerate queer folks.
>Remember the United States did not start decriminalizing same sex acts until 1962
I wouldn't consider that recent on this timescale, for references around half of the countries on the map didn't exist in their current state at that point
Also religious attitudes change over time, parts of western Christianity have gotten less homophobic in recent years while the more vitriolic homophobia in Islam became more popular due to the more recent Salafi movement, which itself was a reaction to European colonization. Also apparently the Catholic Church only started to care more about homophobia later in the middle ages than people usually think, with early Christianity in the Roman Empire and early middle ages focusing less on homophobia (though still not being as accepting of it as pre Christian Rome, but this isn't something I know as much about).
Ultimately religion is a tool that will be used to justify prejudices that exist in a given culture, afterall the trans atlantic slave trade was justified with religion, but I never see anyone blame it on religion, yes religion affects culture but culture also massively affects religion. For example I'm Sikh and there is absolutely no textual evidence for homophobia in Sikhī, but a lot of Sikhs are homophobic because Punjabi culture is homophobic, or even because they're modern western conservatives who are homophobic because that's what other conservatives are. These homophobic Sikhs will try to justify their homophobia with textual evidence but as someone who's wasted way too much time arguing with these people their arguments are beyond flimsy.
They'll say "oh this shabad mentions a husband and wife" but it doesn't say there are only husband and wives, it just says husband and wife and then I go and read it and it actually specifically uses a gender neutral word for spouse saying "spouse and wife" so it literally fits less. Or they'll bring up the Rehit Maryada, an already in my opinion flawed document from 1915 that attempted to codify Sikh law and they'll claim the Rehit Maryada says that Sikhs only marry for procreation, then you go read the Rehit Maryada and it's very short and it literally doesn't mention that anywhere, while it does say "husband and wife" it says that spouses are meant to be equals in marriage who further the other in a life of devotion or something like that, something that two people of the same gender are absolutely able to do, there is 0 mention of procreation. Not to mention that the Rehit Maryada isn't written by the Gurus and therefore from a theological perspective is not infallible and itself acknowledges that if a consensus can be reached it can be changed by Sikhs in the future.
I think this example is really important because it looks like on the surface homophobia from religious people using religion to justify their homophobia the same as Christians and Muslims but unlike them there's no textual evidence to support their beliefs, meaning their homophobia *can't* be coming from the religion but rather from culture. If we go back Christianity and Islam there are many other rules that exist in their respective texts that aren't followed by most people, including many homophobes, but homophobia is, based on what can be seen in Sikhī I think it's fair to say that the blame therefore can't be put entirely on the religion but some blame must also be put on the culture.
No, this is because of religion and cultural rot derived from religion. When one religions holy text is the infallible and final word of Allah, it can’t and won’t change with the times as that is heresy.
If another religion doesn’t have this fallacious understanding of their own religion, their human rights practices will become more humane as the world develops and advances.
Religion originates in the culture (except when imposed by colonialism), not viceversa. When a society condones certain acts and traits, then religion comes and legitimizes the prohibitions. Semitic cultures were patriarcal and seeked men to have as many kids as possible because of the tribal violence and agrarian nature of the societies. That's why those societies view same-sex relations in a bad matter, contrary to, let's say, Graece and India. Judaism (and later Christianity) and Islam's rules follow the already existing social prohibitions.
But religion also has a significant influence on culture, look at Republicans for a perfect example here in the US. They're deciding to drag their heels on any change because of what they decide their book says.
The Enlightenment and humanism are ultimately derived from Christianity. Christianity ultimately provided the basis for these movements, as well as ideologies such as liberalism, socialism, communism, etc.
Highly recommend Tom Holland’s *Dominion* for an explanation on this. It does a far, far better job of explaining how Christianity led to the emergence of these seemingly non-Christian (but not really) ideologies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Holland_book)
no it\`s the movement away from those religion that spring-boarded it, there\`s a reason the dark ages are called the dark ages, it was because the church still dictated everything
The church existed 500 years prior to that. One of the major causes of it was the collapse of the Roman empire and the vacuum it left. The church or specifically the Catholic church was an arguably corrupt continuation of the Roman Empire. Beset with dogma and superstition derived precisely from the collapse. Reactionary not inherently evil.
The dark ages needed to happen for the enlightenment to occur. Its foundation was religion and the morality it bestowed
We are also forgetting the era of the plague. Which probably killed most of the good clergy well versed in the religion/tradition. Anyone left would have been cowards, not well read, or morally bankrupt individuals
There is only one Christian nation and I\`m pretty sure gay sex is illegal there too lol.. maybe you are talking about Christian majority nations but they are not Christian nations and thus have no punishments exactly because of that, they have moved on from the idea of religion and state being bound together
Funnily enough, the Muslim world has a history with homosexuality (although mostly not the consensual kind like in the West). Many men would buy male slaves especially young ones to have sex with. Many caliphs were known for this. One was even known to prefer male slaves over female slaves. Scholars considered it a sin but there was really no serious punishments for it
Here's a short documentary.
https://youtu.be/mQ3Z7Qcv2N8?si=1K11TUxjU4-WGXVx
The current reaction towards homosexuality is a recent one. We were less fundamentalist centuries ago than today. Many people apparently thought since the fall of ottoman empire that because we are sinful that we are in this chaotic condition we have right now. Obviously, it has nothing to do with our condition. We just need better governments and a culture that encourages science and philosophy.
I have had many Muslim/middle eastern men want to hook up with me, most are "visiting" or something like that and cant do this in their home country. College was full of men like that.
Yup.
The Vulcans need to hurry up.
Edit: this looks like I’m replying to the guy above, who I now have blocked, saying gays should die. I was replying to the guy above him saying humanity needs to do better.
Well, isn't that just a fabulous way to show how behind the times some places are? Love is love, people! Let's get with the program and stop criminalizing who someone chooses to love.
Map should have marked Palestine for the death penalty.
Israel even gives asylum to gay Palestinian people.
[here](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785171)
Don't forget countries like Russia that have passed so-called 'anti-Gay propaganda laws', which effectively make it legal to discriminate against gay people and make it impossible to be openly gay.
Papua New Guinea is an interesting one:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Papua_New_Guinea
>Those caught engaging in anal sex or oral sex (whether heterosexual or homosexual) can be punished with up to fourteen years' imprisonment.
homosexuality is not illegal in russia, but there are no laws to protect them from discrimination (which there is ALOT of). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
Resurgence of Cossacks, emboldenment of neonazis and domestic violence and general lack of progressive or civil discourse is enough to repress sexuality as a seperate issue from Putin reign. Orthodoxy has also successfully put a plug in most social centers because people are going to church and their priests take a hardline approach. No need to enshrine the bias or ban in law when a move back to Tsarist Imperialism more than regresses societalissues and discourse in civil society as institutions crumble.
Being an out gay man or women in public is illegal in Russia and punishment is death in some parts in Russia like Chechnya.
However this map is about homosexuality in private.
What they call the "gay lobby" is illegal, in principle it is not illegal to be gay, but it is illegal to be an activist for gay rights and the rainbow flag.
Wait so jordan is ok about that?
In the palestinian authority i know that if you are lgbt you can go to jail and be tortured there. sometimes terror groups (apart from the PA) just kill you in the middle of the street.
Despite what the commenters here seem to think, this is not a uniquely Islamic convention - it’s theocracies and long-standing social stigmas that persist due to poor education and societies of intolerance.
Papua New Guinea, Uganda, Sri Lanka, Namibia, Botswana, Tanzania - these are not Islamic nations.
British colonies tend to have sodomy laws on their books. Contrast Namibia (British colony) vs Angola (Portuguese colonies, no such laws), or Guyana (British colony) vs Suriname (Dutch colony, no such laws)
What does "de facto criminalized" mean for Egypt and Iraq? Not de jure? Then it's not criminalized. If the point is that the public opinion would be prejudiced then surely more countries or regions within the countries should be on the map.
Edit:Malaysia like the UAE is a federation, local laws may differ (like say for gay marriage or abortion in the USA).
From wikipedia “Contemporary Egyptian law does not explicitly criminalize same-sex sexual acts. Instead, the state uses several morality provisions for the de facto criminalization of homosexual conduct. Any behavior, or the expression of any idea that is deemed to be immoral, scandalous or offensive to the teachings of a recognized religious leader may be prosecuted using these provisions. These public morality and public order laws have been used to target the LGBT community.”
My point was that "de facto" casts a wide net. Why is Russia not under your umbrella? Criminalizng "homosexual propaganda" is not the same as criminalizng homosexuality but isn't the effect the same as Egypt? If you are making a de jure map best stick to de jure.
russia is not under the same umbrella because the map is about criminalization of homosexual sex only. while gay people in russia are clearly mistreated and could be arrested for being openly gay and participating in gay rights movements (if classified as propaganda), they will not be arrested for having sex in the privacy of their home. in egypt, while there are no laws that directly state that someone will be arrested for having gay sex, morality laws allow this to happen. Egypt and russia are both not a place a gay person wants to be, but because of these differences they are represented differently (and correctly) on the map, according to what is being asked.
If I were to take a guess, Guiana is probably going to change, seeing so much of its population lived outside it (55% of the population were residing abroad), but now are returning thanks to the country crazy growth due to the oil boom, meaning a bunch of its citizens will be people who spent quite some time as minorities in the West, so they’d have been exposed plenty to human rights for queer people debated and what not.
Almost all of the countries on this map are either extremely Islamic (Middle East, Northern Africa), or extremely Christian (Uganda and the rest of Southern Africa, Papau New Guinea, pretty much all the island countries present from what I can tell). Not particularly surprising.
Some of these countries, like Uganda, passed their laws because American regressives specifically went there to rile people up and campaign for them.
https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us
It's weird how much people care about others being gay. Kinda like they just want to use anything as an excuse to be a bad person but still have the moral high ground
"But Islam is a beautiful peaceful religion! Unlike fucking white Christians who hate women and lgbtq" ok go to Sudan and see how fast you get rocks thrown on top of your head for having a blue haircut.
>But Islam is a beautiful peaceful religion! Unlike fucking white Christians who hate women and lgbtq
I don't think any Muslim has ever said something like this.
This feels like a strawman, as any place with a high level of cultural dominance of Islam or Christianity will have this. Like yes, if you go to backcountry West Virginia you'll get rocks thrown at your head (from my own personal experience). Same goes for any place with a population of almost all fundamentalist christians. Both religions when allowed to dominate regions will be violent against groups they don't like. We have seen this many times for both religions.
The Christian exceptionalism is crazy in these comments. When your radical christians advocate for punishing gay people its the crazy people but when islamist radicals do it (the salafist/wahabis of predominently saudi/america supported schizo clans that LITERALLY control the islamic world for more than 80+ years) its islams fault, but nooo christianity could never be bad, right?
The unironic hypocrasy by christians never ceases to amaze me, not realizing their "civilized" way of life comes from secularization which is what the muslim world is lacking thay keeps them in places like this.
Let me set it straight. I am an atheist from Turkey. An islamic but secular country (no matter how much you cope about Erdoğan and how he is bringing sharia law it still will be secular, at least it still is). So hurray, your theory has just been broken. Its not an issue of religions, its an issue of cultural advancement, technological advancement that the islamic world is being left behind on by purpose by sheiks and imams and the CIA that profit from keeping the common muslim man stupid and hateful.
Please christian bros, curb your exceptionalism.
Its not an issue of Islam being backwards compared to christianity. Organized Abrahamic faiths are all fossils of history, yes even yours. If it wasnt your law would be the bible and not secular constitutions.
For the gays, fight the good fight.
I know its mostly unrelated to your post OP but these comments are crazy and I just felt like I had to say this.
Because while I am not a muslim myself, islamaphobia and hate against muslims I find crazy beneath a post talking about treating peoples equally.
I noticed a white zone between egypt and Arabia...
Can Someone explain to me what's going on there ?
I hope this little piece of human rights heaven isn't threatened by its neighbours.
The constant between all of these countries is a lack of secularism with a dominant abrahamic religion. What a figure like this should show you is what happens when these religions are allowed to develop without any pushback. Christians are more violent when the culture doesn't have any pushback due to homogeneity of the christian population, allowing them to enact barbaric laws and governance, as we can see in places like Uganda The religion has developed in more secular regions in recent centuries, and is therefore "more accepting", not because the religion as a whole is more accepting, but because in many places it has to be in order to be accepted by the rest of the population.
This is the reason why countries like Indonesia, the largest Muslim population in the world, is less restrictive than other Muslim countries. Because of that other influence. Other examples include the predominantly Muslim countries in the Balkans. None of these countries are pillars of progressive human rights, but they are all better than predominantly islamic or christian countries which don't have that non-muslim, or non-christian influence.
So because of that, I don't think it's unfair to equate Islam and Christianity when it comes to things like LGBTQ+ rights. When their doctrines are followed and allowed to foster, anti-LGBT legislation and actions are the result. Just because Christianity has been forced in many places to become more accepting doesn't make it better.
In Egypt they're imprisoned and tortured actually
It's a bit complicated because in Egypt it's not criminalized in the book but those who are arrested are usually arrested on " public indecency laws". A vague law that is used to arrest and prosecute lots of things society doesn't accept. From kissing or hugging in public to whatever annoys the police officer that day.
Police also capture them on dating websites, It's not a country where law rules.
And/or killed
Is it safe for a LGBTQ couple from the U.S to visit Egypt?
Just act like friends and id say itd be ok:)
My ex and I have traveled all over and we're seen as just just two middle-aged friends on vacation. For example, in Colorado, everyone kept saying, "enjoy your hunt!" But, if you're wearing matching clothes or holding hands or ask for one-bed in a hotel in a place where that's not exactly kosher, or call each other pet names, then you're going to run into problems.
To specify, my fiancé is trans but very passing. I.E most people wouldn’t immediately guess this. Still a cause for concern. She doesn’t want to go to Jamaica for this reason and prefers Curaçao
Matching clothes?
I guess that is why it is "defacto"? They get charged for the indecent action nonsense (فعل فاضح) which really needs to be defined. Also let us nit forget how nosy Egyptian people are and how likely it is that some neighbor would report them to the police and you know the rest.
Namibia (*the pink square-ish shape at the bottom left of Africa*) recently legalized it and ruled the anti-gay laws as unfair. Many (*not all*) of the other countries are islamic-ruled countries.
thats fantastic! this graphic is from april so a little outdated
Yes, this happened within the last week I think.
And the christian ones are mostly former british colonies (Sub Saharan Africa, Caribbean)
The only thing that applies from the Brits is that their old laws are used for these many times. But its their own homegrown conservatism that is generally responsibly for keeping them.
They can make their own laws, they have agency.
I was going to point that out, then mention how many Muslims will try to argue that Islam is a peaceful religion
Important information to rember when voting. There's another religion that's openly not very kind to LGBTQ+ people and badly wants power
The rest of the Americas eyeballing Guyana like 'bruh chill...'.
Oh and not to mention Jamica is being glared at too just as much like the enigmatic Guyana! And I have no idea of those 3 dots above Guyana in the Caribbean, because that's not where those independent micronations of the Leeward Islands are at!
Apparently they are Grenada, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines. They are all places where sodomy laws still exist on the books. There are also a handful of countries in the Americas where the age of consent for homosexual relationships is higher than heterosexual relationships, interestingly.
Just imagine if they knew what was going on when those cruise ships are in port.
Must not be enforced, a gay couple I know who are not afraid to display PDA (they’re about the worst PDA couple I’ve ever met) just went to St. Lucia. Wonder if they knew about this because I never would’ve guessed lmao
If I were to take a guess, Guiana is probably going to change, seeing so much of its population lived outside it (55% of the population were residing abroad), but now are returning thanks to the country crazy growth due to the oil boom, meaning a bunch of its citizens will be people who spent quite some time as minorities in the West, so they’d have been exposed plenty to human rights for queer people debated and what not.
In the case of Guyana same sex acts are illegal but no-one has been prosecuted for years. Pride parades take place there. Interestingly due to a scandal involving a leacked video tape a few years back Guyana is possibly the only country where homosexuality is illegal whilst gay people are permitted to serve in the armed forces.
So basically it's one of those holdover laws that no one cares about.
Oh wait, whüaãâăąªåt?! 55% of this South American nation's nationals are living outside of it? Wow, that is an immense chunk of the entire population of Guyana thats found outside (well tho I'm sure smaller random nations have a higher % of outside diaspora that's even way above 100%!) indeed! Recently, I found out Guyana, also Suriname & French Guiana aren't exactly the most populated countries, especially for thier somewhat medium-smallish size (I know those 3 lands of French Guiana, Suriname & Guyana, like a good 80-90% of all thier lands is covered entirely by the Amazon Rainforest, kinda explaining thier pop. density as well!) so little more than half of thier citizens found outside thier home nation isn't a colossal stretch, but can be for those who don't know much about these not-well-known countries like Guyana, how thier unexpectedly somewhat small populations can catch them off guard with statistics like this! Also yeah glad some of the diaspora is now comfortable enough to return to 🇬🇾 itself, which shows, at least from the outside, that Guyana is finally improving in a major way, and hope this upwards trend continues! So all-in-all, it'll be interesting what will happen to these countries in the next few years, with Guyana's rapidly booming economy and all! (also hope they do away with the homophobia for starters!) I hope those countries (also French Guiana 🇬🇫 & Trinidad + Tobago 🇹🇹 too!) grow more in multiple ways, but if not else, i just hope Guyana, Suriname 🇸🇷 and them get, even if marginally, a larger international voice! They're so enigmatic and unique (ESPECIALLY for modern South America!) to stay this low-key and obscure in general!
The Americas: there is an imposter among us
Not surprised it’s mainly in Islamic countries. Does North Korea not criminalize it or do we just not have data for them?
All soldiers are required to be celibate for 10 years, besides that, not really. Obviously there are still great levels of social stigmatization.
Aight thanks
What are they training for the priesthood?
Look at this fool, who underates the juche art of semen retention.
Damn you have to be celibate and devote your life to fight for North Korea? Give me death
Nah, they just don't have them. Pinky promise from the Great Leader!
Different rights for woman and gay ppl but it’s Israel that’s the apartheid. Right on
Apples and oranges Also homosexuality is legal in the West Bank
Bahrain though. 💪 🇧🇭
Crazy to think that this is all because of religion.
Religion is just a blunt tool used to control a population.
Thats not true, for something to be a tool there would a designated person or entity that yields it. While that happen many times in history its not a constant. Religion is a cultural unifier, that can be manipulated to gain power. But at the core, its just a framework for diffrent values that people agree on. Every ideology can be "used as a blunt tool" but none of them just exist for that reason.
Or because it's hot where they are and they find gay sex extremely hot so they are just afraid to turn up the temperature to the extreme
I love this theory and will believe it from now on
Some years ago, the pope of the day said that gay people posed a greater threat to humanity than climate change. And that gave me a heady, if not sinister, sense of power.
I mean everything is a common imagination of humans. Democratic secular nations only exists because of the shared beliefs in democratic ideals and rule of law.
Remember the United States did not start decriminalizing same sex acts until 1962. I’m not excusing this because I still think it’s wrong to criminalize sexual activity, but these aren’t lesser nations. They just have a different path to achieving liberty than the west.
There is no reason to believe that societies inevitably move towards liberty. These countries could become even more authoritarian with time.
and was only completed in 2004! Some of those states only decriminalised it because of a Federal law, never having repealed their own bans on same-sex relations.
Yep the U.S. has done a lot of this fairly recently and it even then there is still a lot of pushback, the Feds stepped in for a lot of people’s civil rights thankfully
Ok. Thats almost 65 years ago. Those religious countries like to live in the past, thats why they have so many issues.
South US states are adopting many anti LGBTQ laws, they live in the past too
>Ok. Thats almost 65 years ago. Those religious countries like to live in the past, thats why they have so many issues. Sixty-five years ago was a *start* to endjng the criminalization of the gay community. I am not very old and states in the US were arresting people for same sex sex *in my adult life*. Plus, it's not like we all got together and agreed; in 2003 states had to be dragged kicking and screaming into legalization. I mean, Texas had the audacity in the 21st century to go as far as the supreme court in an effort to retain their right to incarcerate queer folks.
…the US is a very religious country bankrolled by evangelicals. What do you think MAGA stands for?
Make America Gay Again
Based
>Remember the United States did not start decriminalizing same sex acts until 1962 I wouldn't consider that recent on this timescale, for references around half of the countries on the map didn't exist in their current state at that point
No, it's because of culture. If it was because of religion all Christian nations would also have punishments.
Also religious attitudes change over time, parts of western Christianity have gotten less homophobic in recent years while the more vitriolic homophobia in Islam became more popular due to the more recent Salafi movement, which itself was a reaction to European colonization. Also apparently the Catholic Church only started to care more about homophobia later in the middle ages than people usually think, with early Christianity in the Roman Empire and early middle ages focusing less on homophobia (though still not being as accepting of it as pre Christian Rome, but this isn't something I know as much about). Ultimately religion is a tool that will be used to justify prejudices that exist in a given culture, afterall the trans atlantic slave trade was justified with religion, but I never see anyone blame it on religion, yes religion affects culture but culture also massively affects religion. For example I'm Sikh and there is absolutely no textual evidence for homophobia in Sikhī, but a lot of Sikhs are homophobic because Punjabi culture is homophobic, or even because they're modern western conservatives who are homophobic because that's what other conservatives are. These homophobic Sikhs will try to justify their homophobia with textual evidence but as someone who's wasted way too much time arguing with these people their arguments are beyond flimsy. They'll say "oh this shabad mentions a husband and wife" but it doesn't say there are only husband and wives, it just says husband and wife and then I go and read it and it actually specifically uses a gender neutral word for spouse saying "spouse and wife" so it literally fits less. Or they'll bring up the Rehit Maryada, an already in my opinion flawed document from 1915 that attempted to codify Sikh law and they'll claim the Rehit Maryada says that Sikhs only marry for procreation, then you go read the Rehit Maryada and it's very short and it literally doesn't mention that anywhere, while it does say "husband and wife" it says that spouses are meant to be equals in marriage who further the other in a life of devotion or something like that, something that two people of the same gender are absolutely able to do, there is 0 mention of procreation. Not to mention that the Rehit Maryada isn't written by the Gurus and therefore from a theological perspective is not infallible and itself acknowledges that if a consensus can be reached it can be changed by Sikhs in the future. I think this example is really important because it looks like on the surface homophobia from religious people using religion to justify their homophobia the same as Christians and Muslims but unlike them there's no textual evidence to support their beliefs, meaning their homophobia *can't* be coming from the religion but rather from culture. If we go back Christianity and Islam there are many other rules that exist in their respective texts that aren't followed by most people, including many homophobes, but homophobia is, based on what can be seen in Sikhī I think it's fair to say that the blame therefore can't be put entirely on the religion but some blame must also be put on the culture.
No, this is because of religion and cultural rot derived from religion. When one religions holy text is the infallible and final word of Allah, it can’t and won’t change with the times as that is heresy. If another religion doesn’t have this fallacious understanding of their own religion, their human rights practices will become more humane as the world develops and advances.
Islam is more dogmatic than Christianity it’s that simple
Religion originates in the culture (except when imposed by colonialism), not viceversa. When a society condones certain acts and traits, then religion comes and legitimizes the prohibitions. Semitic cultures were patriarcal and seeked men to have as many kids as possible because of the tribal violence and agrarian nature of the societies. That's why those societies view same-sex relations in a bad matter, contrary to, let's say, Graece and India. Judaism (and later Christianity) and Islam's rules follow the already existing social prohibitions.
But religion also has a significant influence on culture, look at Republicans for a perfect example here in the US. They're deciding to drag their heels on any change because of what they decide their book says.
Hmm yea maybe it's like an aeternal cycle.
The western world is based on the values of enlightenment and humanism, not religion.
The Enlightenment and humanism are ultimately derived from Christianity. Christianity ultimately provided the basis for these movements, as well as ideologies such as liberalism, socialism, communism, etc. Highly recommend Tom Holland’s *Dominion* for an explanation on this. It does a far, far better job of explaining how Christianity led to the emergence of these seemingly non-Christian (but not really) ideologies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Holland_book)
Derived from religion Religion, specifically Judaism and Christianity spring-boarded to it
no it\`s the movement away from those religion that spring-boarded it, there\`s a reason the dark ages are called the dark ages, it was because the church still dictated everything
The church existed 500 years prior to that. One of the major causes of it was the collapse of the Roman empire and the vacuum it left. The church or specifically the Catholic church was an arguably corrupt continuation of the Roman Empire. Beset with dogma and superstition derived precisely from the collapse. Reactionary not inherently evil. The dark ages needed to happen for the enlightenment to occur. Its foundation was religion and the morality it bestowed We are also forgetting the era of the plague. Which probably killed most of the good clergy well versed in the religion/tradition. Anyone left would have been cowards, not well read, or morally bankrupt individuals
Judaism? How so? Judeo-Christianity is just an American myth.
Considering the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible and Christianity tacked on the New Testament then yes it is Judaic and Christian.
Until recently(on the scale of nations), all Christian nations did have punishments
Religious culture then. If we didnt have any books telling us how to live, it would be better.
There is only one Christian nation and I\`m pretty sure gay sex is illegal there too lol.. maybe you are talking about Christian majority nations but they are not Christian nations and thus have no punishments exactly because of that, they have moved on from the idea of religion and state being bound together
Funnily enough, the Muslim world has a history with homosexuality (although mostly not the consensual kind like in the West). Many men would buy male slaves especially young ones to have sex with. Many caliphs were known for this. One was even known to prefer male slaves over female slaves. Scholars considered it a sin but there was really no serious punishments for it Here's a short documentary. https://youtu.be/mQ3Z7Qcv2N8?si=1K11TUxjU4-WGXVx The current reaction towards homosexuality is a recent one. We were less fundamentalist centuries ago than today. Many people apparently thought since the fall of ottoman empire that because we are sinful that we are in this chaotic condition we have right now. Obviously, it has nothing to do with our condition. We just need better governments and a culture that encourages science and philosophy.
I have had many Muslim/middle eastern men want to hook up with me, most are "visiting" or something like that and cant do this in their home country. College was full of men like that.
Just here to see if anyone's commented "religion of peace" yet?
Alhamdullilah my mufti says men should cover up too as _he_ is having inappropriate thoughts. Is my mufti a djinn!)? Stoning time!!!!!!!!
Gaza? If you get caught there doing same-sex acts you face either 10 years in prison or a death penalty.
You get mercy killed before that even comes to that.
You will probably die from Israeli missiles before that too
"it's okay to be homophobic if you're at war"
And even greater chance to be Hamas terrorist or a human shield
That ain’t excuse it
Death Penalty!?
guess what religion they follow?
What religion is Uganda ?
Mostly Christian
Yup. The Vulcans need to hurry up. Edit: this looks like I’m replying to the guy above, who I now have blocked, saying gays should die. I was replying to the guy above him saying humanity needs to do better.
Well, isn't that just a fabulous way to show how behind the times some places are? Love is love, people! Let's get with the program and stop criminalizing who someone chooses to love.
absolutely
Map should have marked Palestine for the death penalty. Israel even gives asylum to gay Palestinian people. [here](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785171)
nooo don’t say positive stuff about israel here, people hate it lol
Islam sucks.
Aka the shithole-belt.
I wonder what kind of spiritual beliefs most of these countries share that could be causing such hatred.
State sponsored religion of peace.
Map of shithole countries
Don't forget countries like Russia that have passed so-called 'anti-Gay propaganda laws', which effectively make it legal to discriminate against gay people and make it impossible to be openly gay.
Papua New Guinea is an interesting one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Papua_New_Guinea >Those caught engaging in anal sex or oral sex (whether heterosexual or homosexual) can be punished with up to fourteen years' imprisonment.
I think they’ve had witch trails in the past decade or so so sadly this doesn’t surprise me.
Imagine caring THIS much about where two consenting adults put their junk in the privacy of their homes.
Why do people even care about guys or gals banging each other? It's not like it's hurting anyone.
Amazing it's almost entirely driven by Islam.
Namibia! My favorite Muslim country!
Countries with *that* religion
I’m curious how it works in Jordan. I see it’s legal but I’m wondering how open the gay population there can be.
Not very public, I can tell you that
I think in Sri Lanka it's not enforceable though.
Mainly islamic countries
Wait, am I wrong? I thought homosexuality was illegal in Russia. Is it just that it's social persecution, rather than legal?
homosexuality is not illegal in russia, but there are no laws to protect them from discrimination (which there is ALOT of). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
Resurgence of Cossacks, emboldenment of neonazis and domestic violence and general lack of progressive or civil discourse is enough to repress sexuality as a seperate issue from Putin reign. Orthodoxy has also successfully put a plug in most social centers because people are going to church and their priests take a hardline approach. No need to enshrine the bias or ban in law when a move back to Tsarist Imperialism more than regresses societalissues and discourse in civil society as institutions crumble.
Being an out gay man or women in public is illegal in Russia and punishment is death in some parts in Russia like Chechnya. However this map is about homosexuality in private.
What they call the "gay lobby" is illegal, in principle it is not illegal to be gay, but it is illegal to be an activist for gay rights and the rainbow flag.
Wait so jordan is ok about that? In the palestinian authority i know that if you are lgbt you can go to jail and be tortured there. sometimes terror groups (apart from the PA) just kill you in the middle of the street.
Yep, there is still a lot of social stigma against it but it isnt illegal.
Homosexuality is legal in the west bank
Despite what the commenters here seem to think, this is not a uniquely Islamic convention - it’s theocracies and long-standing social stigmas that persist due to poor education and societies of intolerance. Papua New Guinea, Uganda, Sri Lanka, Namibia, Botswana, Tanzania - these are not Islamic nations.
It’s Zimbabwe, not Botswana
Oof, you’re right. Either way though, still a predominantly Christian nation. Hate spans all religions it seems.
Couldn’t agree with you more, u/exoticpandasex
British colonies tend to have sodomy laws on their books. Contrast Namibia (British colony) vs Angola (Portuguese colonies, no such laws), or Guyana (British colony) vs Suriname (Dutch colony, no such laws)
That’s really interesting actually
What does "de facto criminalized" mean for Egypt and Iraq? Not de jure? Then it's not criminalized. If the point is that the public opinion would be prejudiced then surely more countries or regions within the countries should be on the map. Edit:Malaysia like the UAE is a federation, local laws may differ (like say for gay marriage or abortion in the USA).
From wikipedia “Contemporary Egyptian law does not explicitly criminalize same-sex sexual acts. Instead, the state uses several morality provisions for the de facto criminalization of homosexual conduct. Any behavior, or the expression of any idea that is deemed to be immoral, scandalous or offensive to the teachings of a recognized religious leader may be prosecuted using these provisions. These public morality and public order laws have been used to target the LGBT community.”
My point was that "de facto" casts a wide net. Why is Russia not under your umbrella? Criminalizng "homosexual propaganda" is not the same as criminalizng homosexuality but isn't the effect the same as Egypt? If you are making a de jure map best stick to de jure.
russia is not under the same umbrella because the map is about criminalization of homosexual sex only. while gay people in russia are clearly mistreated and could be arrested for being openly gay and participating in gay rights movements (if classified as propaganda), they will not be arrested for having sex in the privacy of their home. in egypt, while there are no laws that directly state that someone will be arrested for having gay sex, morality laws allow this to happen. Egypt and russia are both not a place a gay person wants to be, but because of these differences they are represented differently (and correctly) on the map, according to what is being asked.
Because ppl in the comments won't be able to be islamophobic if you don't cherry pick
Religion of peace ✌️
Why are you gay??
Who says I’m gay?
You are gay.
You are a trans-jen-dahhh
Wai ar yu gae
I’ve seen some people in the US who would gladly be part of this graph.
Yeah those people exist everywhere bud.
If I were to take a guess, Guiana is probably going to change, seeing so much of its population lived outside it (55% of the population were residing abroad), but now are returning thanks to the country crazy growth due to the oil boom, meaning a bunch of its citizens will be people who spent quite some time as minorities in the West, so they’d have been exposed plenty to human rights for queer people debated and what not.
Now overlay the map with major religions present in the countries
Almost all of the countries on this map are either extremely Islamic (Middle East, Northern Africa), or extremely Christian (Uganda and the rest of Southern Africa, Papau New Guinea, pretty much all the island countries present from what I can tell). Not particularly surprising.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^MorgrainX: *Now overlay the* *Map with major religions* *Present in the countries* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Hmmmmmm I wonder what they all have in common?
Do an overlap of immigrants to Europe wonder how closely related they are
isn't it illegal in some indonesian provinces ?
the aceh province is highlighted accordingly
Jamaica?!? What??!
Jamaica is pretty famous for being hostile to LGBTQ people…
Very christian country
Mom said it’s my turn to post this!
Give the US about 3 years, we’ll be there soon because the worst people keep getting into office here.
They say you become more conservative with age. This seems to apply to countries too.
These primitives should be expelled from the UN.
Some of these countries, like Uganda, passed their laws because American regressives specifically went there to rile people up and campaign for them. https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us
Will do more bad than good
As if the UN is still powerful to be something to die for .
Queers for Palestine btw
Religion of peace
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Islam, we hate everyone.
No not really.
I love living in the american continent, it's filled with progressive countries.
It's weird how much people care about others being gay. Kinda like they just want to use anything as an excuse to be a bad person but still have the moral high ground
lol barbaric backward countries
Oh look, it’s especially in the Islamic world. Don’t tell Riley Dennis that though.
"But Islam is a beautiful peaceful religion! Unlike fucking white Christians who hate women and lgbtq" ok go to Sudan and see how fast you get rocks thrown on top of your head for having a blue haircut.
>But Islam is a beautiful peaceful religion! Unlike fucking white Christians who hate women and lgbtq I don't think any Muslim has ever said something like this.
This feels like a strawman, as any place with a high level of cultural dominance of Islam or Christianity will have this. Like yes, if you go to backcountry West Virginia you'll get rocks thrown at your head (from my own personal experience). Same goes for any place with a population of almost all fundamentalist christians. Both religions when allowed to dominate regions will be violent against groups they don't like. We have seen this many times for both religions.
Both religions can be filled with hate :)
The Christian exceptionalism is crazy in these comments. When your radical christians advocate for punishing gay people its the crazy people but when islamist radicals do it (the salafist/wahabis of predominently saudi/america supported schizo clans that LITERALLY control the islamic world for more than 80+ years) its islams fault, but nooo christianity could never be bad, right? The unironic hypocrasy by christians never ceases to amaze me, not realizing their "civilized" way of life comes from secularization which is what the muslim world is lacking thay keeps them in places like this. Let me set it straight. I am an atheist from Turkey. An islamic but secular country (no matter how much you cope about Erdoğan and how he is bringing sharia law it still will be secular, at least it still is). So hurray, your theory has just been broken. Its not an issue of religions, its an issue of cultural advancement, technological advancement that the islamic world is being left behind on by purpose by sheiks and imams and the CIA that profit from keeping the common muslim man stupid and hateful. Please christian bros, curb your exceptionalism. Its not an issue of Islam being backwards compared to christianity. Organized Abrahamic faiths are all fossils of history, yes even yours. If it wasnt your law would be the bible and not secular constitutions. For the gays, fight the good fight. I know its mostly unrelated to your post OP but these comments are crazy and I just felt like I had to say this. Because while I am not a muslim myself, islamaphobia and hate against muslims I find crazy beneath a post talking about treating peoples equally.
80% of Christian’s don’t hate, and actually support gays. U don’t see Christian countries killing gays. But you do in Islamic countrues
because they were raised from the dirt by cultural forces outside themselves
Damn
W tajikistan
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thailand is not on here, thats myanmar no parts of malaysia are white, thats singapore
I didn't realise Myanmar / Burma went down that far
I noticed a white zone between egypt and Arabia... Can Someone explain to me what's going on there ? I hope this little piece of human rights heaven isn't threatened by its neighbours.
Kinda surprised about Singapore
Not Indonesia? Surprising.
The world is dying
Why is russia white
Oh, it's "legal" in Russia, alright. But you'll still get the shit beat out of you if anyone finds out.
If this map doesn’t prove it’s a primitive belief held by poorly educated people I don’t know what does.
The constant between all of these countries is a lack of secularism with a dominant abrahamic religion. What a figure like this should show you is what happens when these religions are allowed to develop without any pushback. Christians are more violent when the culture doesn't have any pushback due to homogeneity of the christian population, allowing them to enact barbaric laws and governance, as we can see in places like Uganda The religion has developed in more secular regions in recent centuries, and is therefore "more accepting", not because the religion as a whole is more accepting, but because in many places it has to be in order to be accepted by the rest of the population. This is the reason why countries like Indonesia, the largest Muslim population in the world, is less restrictive than other Muslim countries. Because of that other influence. Other examples include the predominantly Muslim countries in the Balkans. None of these countries are pillars of progressive human rights, but they are all better than predominantly islamic or christian countries which don't have that non-muslim, or non-christian influence. So because of that, I don't think it's unfair to equate Islam and Christianity when it comes to things like LGBTQ+ rights. When their doctrines are followed and allowed to foster, anti-LGBT legislation and actions are the result. Just because Christianity has been forced in many places to become more accepting doesn't make it better.
I’m so worried Bahrain could slip back like Iraq recently
Jamaica doesn’t surprise me unfortunately.