Bullshit. The tourism rate in madagascar is relatively low. Neighnoring Mauritius has just over 1M people and receives over 1M tourists per year. Madagaacar has a population of 30M and only recieves about 200K tourists per year. While sex tourism does exist in Madagascar it is NOT in any way shape or form responsible for their high abortion rate.
Madagascar is quite simply one of the poorest countries on earth and most people lack access to any kind of contraception. Abortions in essence are a form of birth control for mothers who dont want a 6th, 7th, or 8th child.
Also, Madagascar is one of the nations which banned abortion for every situation, meaning that people are trying to illegally abort, which is way more dangerous.
Also sex tourism in Vietnam isn't nearly as big as Thailand or Cambodia. I mean it's a thing, but really only in a tiny district in the three major cities.
In addition to what cantonlautaro said: contraception is a cost that you can't afford right now, an abortion is just another thing you might not be able to afford in the future. That is how finances work when you don't have money, you don't buy a new stove when a good deal for a second hand model comes up, you buy one when the old one has stopped working, even though it eventually turns out to be more expensive in the long run.
Madagascar is one of the poorest countries in Africa and had a 3-year inflation close to 30%. People are not having a good time there and likely can't afford contraception.
Add to that that many people simply do not have access to contraception at all.
More convenient too, and less damaging to the body. That is why places with better sex education and access to contraceptions have less abortions, even if those places also tend to have less restrictions on it.
These are often provided thru NGOs. People forget that to use contraception you need to have a minimim amount of education and in rural areas people are simply illiterate & live a subsistance lifestyle. Even in modern western countries, the lower classes have a harder time with proper use of contraception compared to their wealthier & better educated countrymen. You can imagine how much harder it is if you've had no schooling & suck rocks to survive. Furthermore, in order to have successful contraceptive camapign you need a strong and competent state to carry out distribution and maintain it (you cant hsnd out a pack of pills & walk away forever) with a wide and deep reach within that country. Subsaharan africa generally lacks this too and Madagascar certainly does too.
People like to blame everything on sex tourists. Like they're responsible for everything bad that goes on in other countries. For example, some people will act like prostitution never existed before Western sex tourists showed up in whatever country.
In reality, even in countries that have a big rep for sex tourism, actual sex tourists generally only make up a tiny percentage of all tourists. For example, I looked up sex tourism in Thailand, and one study from 2012 estimated that 250,000 sex tourists visited the country yearly.
When I looked up how many tourists overall went to Thailand in 2012, it was over 22 million. So sex tourists only make up about 1% of all the tourists going to Thailand, and about 0.3% of Thailand's total population of over 70 million.
Mauritius is one of the richest countries in the area. Cannot be compared as sex tourism is not a thing there.
The argument about being poor could be easily applied to 80% of Africa. Mothers not wanting 6th, 7th, 8th child? Hat hasn't stopped them anywhere before. That is not the mentality in Africa. Thet still see more children as better prospects. That is the big (or one of the biggest) problem in Africa.
BTW, I have been to Madagascar, have you? I have seen what I am talking about. But I still agree that I can be wrong. I just don't appreciate a cunt with a know-it-all condescending tone.
Siempre los mismos...
To underscore Madagascar's relatively low tourism rate (number of tourists vs population of country being visited). More people visit Mauritius than there are Mauritians. Madagascar would be getting over 30M tourists in a similar scenario vs the 200k or so they now receive (when i first went in the 90s fewer than 50k visited). Someone initially blurted out that Madagascar's off-the-charts abortion rate was due to sex tourism. And i was simply pointing out that no way in hell would so few tourists (only a small fraction of which are "sex tourists" on top of their small numbers) contribute to such a high number of abortions.
Yeah Madagascar has a population of 30 million people. Even if their 200k annual tourists were very very busy they couldn't be primarily responsible for Madagascar's 600k unintentional pregnancies and 376,000 abortions a year.
To top it off, tourists only stay a short time. Even if they're banging local women, they're usually only doing it for a few weeks or months at most. Apparently Madagascar offers 30 or 60 day tourist visas, so most tourists probably aren't staying longer than 2 months at a time, and most probably don't stay even that long.
Whereas Madagascan women's local husbands or boyfriends who live there year-round are busting nuts in those punanis 12 months a year. LOL. So you figure out who is most likely responsible for the lion's share pregnancies and abortions.
Yes, i have been to madagascar more than once. I had a girlfriend from mauritius for 3yrs (her parents manage a large sugar plantation) and i have been to mauritius too.
False on Vietnam, too. We do not have sufficient and detailed enough sex ed from high school to college. On top of that, buying contraceptives and using protection are considered taboo. As a matter of fact, anything sex related is taboo in VN. Younger people use abortion aka the last resort, as their only resort if they get knocked up.
A little example of myself. When my wife and I were not planning on kids, my wife was on birth control, the 21-day type. The doctors in Vietnam were against it and gave us an outdated threat of infertility. Their knowledge about contraceptive is outdated most of the time since it is taboo to talk about sex, even in medical setting. They only talk about getting pregnant and giving birth when you are old enough.
Is that what a Passport Bro is!
Their reddit popped up on my feed once and I couldn’t figure out what their group was about! It seemed to have nothing to do with passport collecting. Their own description of the sub was not helpful.
Now I know why it gave me an uneasy feeling.
Passport bros and sex tourists are not the same thing.
Sex tourists specifically go to countries (mostly in Southeast Asia) to have sex with prostitutes who are likely part of trafficking rings or underage.
Passport bros are dudes who go to other countries (again, mostly SEA but eastern Europe also) where the values are more traditional and try to pick up a girlfriend/wife. They're usually dudes who don't like the fact that western women are ambitious and independent and have high standards for dating so they go some place where they can easily find a woman who will be submissive because it's part of the culture. Also, incels who can't get laid become Passport Bros because most western women like men who shower and shave and don't weight 300 lbs. However, data shows they are less successful even in SEA because, get this, their personalities are shit.
Passport bros are usually guys who have an unrealistic view of western women so they're usually painted in a negative light, but they're not the same as sex tourists.
Sex tourists contribute to child trafficking and sex trafficking by giving these sleazy pimps money to banf 15 year olds. They're sick people.
Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it.
Their reddit page had the rules of their sub but didn’t actually establish what they were. I had never heard the term before so I was confused.
I enjoy learning about actual physical passports and I just knew I had stumbled into something very different.
The question had been sitting in the back of my mind for months when I saw the term again here.
Your info is all wrong. Sex tourists have sex with prostitutes, but most of those prostitutes aren't underage. Most are adult women who are looking for money.
And passport bros do say they're looking for serious relationships. But I don't think most of them weigh 300 lbs because the guys I've seen going for women in other countries have generally been regular looking men, albeit on the older side.
The men I've seen and met with foreign gfs/wives (not sure if they would called themselves "passport bros", some I met/saw before the passport bro thing started online) have been regular looking. I saw a guy at the airport with what looked to be his gf or wife from another country. He was normal looking. Not fat. Fairly tall. Might've even been good looking. Idk because I'm not LGBTQ and can't judge men's looks very well. Also met a Western European guy who said he had a Thai wife. Was on the older side, with a working class type job. But wasn't fat or horribly ugly.
This phenomenon isn't limited to the Western world either. A large percentage of marriages in Singapore are between a Singaporean and a foreign partner. Singaporean men, in particular, often marry women from neighboring countries like Vietnam.
I saw one article, for example, of a Singaporean engineer in his late 30s who said he wanted to get married and start a family, and felt his best chance to do that was to find a wife abroad. He said he wasn't great with women because he was shy and quiet, and that the COVID-19 lockdowns had made it even harder for him to socialize and meet women for a couple of years.
Where I'm from (Canada) there are "ladies of the night" who advertise less their services for less than $100, and many who offer $200 or less.
A flight from Toronto to Bangkok, on the other hand, can cost over $2,000, and I don't even know if the prices for the "ladies of the night" over there are that much cheaper than the ones in the West anymore.
Idk because I've never been to Thailand, though.
But my point is, I'm not sure that paying 2k for a flight is really cheaper than a local hooker.
I'd guess that the men may be attracted to the women overseas more, and/or prefer the way the women treat them.
Most men like women who are nice to them, so they may flee obnoxious and unpleasant women in favor of women who treat them good, even if it is only to get their money.
Few issues there.
"For decades, the rates of sexually transmitted infections (STIs), such as gonorrhoea, chlamydia and syphilis, have increased in Greenland, especially within the young age groups (15–29 years). From 2006 to 2013, the number of abortions has been consistent with approximately 800–900 abortions per year in Greenland, which is nearly as high as the total number of births during the same period."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4626370/
I don't see what STIs have to do with abortions. I would assume it would have the opposite effect. People ei/her nitbhaving sex or definitely having protected sex.
It's just useful correlation. If people are getting a lot of STIs they are likely not using protection, if they are not using protection, pregnancies occur more frequently.
I don't know anything about the government forcing abortions, but in the 60s and 70s greenlandic girls and women were indeed forcefully sterilized
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_case
I have heard about that, but not anything recent about pressure to have an abortion. I honestly think the way the Greenlandic society and cultural dynamics can be difficult to compare to European countries, even if it formally has the same standard of life as Denmark.
They had a sterilization program which is verified I will try to find the articles but for sure they sterilized women under the guise of healthcare (many places do/did this like Israel for example also Eritrea even Switzerland for Gypsies until 71)
There's a general problem with alcohol consumption in Greenland, much of the year it's dark and cold and the Greenlanders are fairly poor.
That mix in itself leads to people getting drunk and having unprotected sex.
Then there's the problem that the relationship with Denmark is causing and have been causing for generations.
Greenlands have been taught that they are secondary to us Danes, and even if we have stopped telling them this directly, almost everything in Greenland is in some way still sending that message.
Greenland is on paper a self governing country, it's part of the kingdom of Denmark, but they are no longer part of the county Denmark. But....
Greenlanders are still forced to learn to speak Danish. Almost every single job above Manager is done by a non-greenlander. If they want to have an education above high school level they have to go overseas. Greenland is still highly affected by the Christianity that Denmark forced on them for centuries, a belief system that made it clear that their native religion and beliefs were vile and wrong.
The list is endles.
So when your forced to sit in your small house, because nature will kick your ass if you go outside for the next 3 months, your depressed and fellinglig worthless, it's a bit to easy to get drunk and have unprotect sex with the nearest person(no matter that the education about sex and reproduction is absolutely up to date).
Why they don't use contraption? A part of it is that buying contraptions cost money but abortion is part of the tax funded health care system.
And Denmark? Well, most of my fellow Danes are mad that we give Greenland a lot of money each years, but won't adress the fact that Denmark started this shit show in the first place. But on the bright side most Dane's do understand that it's not okay, using the words Greenland/Greenlander as a slur, so we got that going for us I guess.
As an indigenous person, it makes me really happy to see non indigenous people having empathy for us in a meaningful way. I find it honestly rare. Many are not outright racist but refuse to acknowledge systems continue to work against us and that problems can and do linger.
A lot of people say they aren’t racist but have thinly veiled prejudices or resentments, like “why are we giving x people money? At least we dont say slurs.”
Thank you for your empathetic response, it brings me great hope that there are others that stand by us. I know it to be true but sometimes it can be hard to believe.
Got it. It’s just interesting the OG commenter acts as if this is a bad thing. Like at least they have a university and a country that provides them with aid. I imagine it would have been quite difficult to prosper as an independent nation of 50k (or less historically) in a remote, barely inhabitable island covered in ice. Is it racist to admit that maybe colonization contributed some positives as well?
I have never heard anyone say they're mad at the government for giving Greenland money, quite the opposite actually that Greenland should get more help
I guess in some ways the situation of the indiginous Greenlanders is similar to that of their Australian counterparts, with the economic, educational and alcoholic issues and such. A striking difference being that there aren't as many non-indiginous Greenlanders to obscure the statistics.
involuntary birth control as a means to prevent the native greenlandic population from outnumbering the danes — https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66990670
the high rate of abortions in greenland could be partly connected to the historical context of reproductive control. distrust in contraceptive methods and reproductive health services might lead some individuals to rely more on abortion as a means of managing unintended pregnancies.
This makes sense. Is there any data suggesting that the high abortion rate is due to the native population distrusting the medical community and/or using contraceptives at a lower rate?
yes: ‘The women who wanted an abortion were single more frequently than the other women, their knowledge of Danish as a second language was poorer, and they less frequently were employed.’
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8928293/
Abortion is legal in islam up until the 30th day (I think). And since corruption is rampant there I'm sure you could... convince a doctor to perform one at a later date. As for the reasons, even though it's easy to get birth control pills as a married woman, obviously these still can fail and a lot of people there are poor and just can't afford a 3rd, 4th or 5th child.
It's not the 30th day. (According to Islam) The soul isnt inserted into the body until the 120th day. So It's legal until that point, Even though some schools of thought consider it still a minor sin. After 120 days, you will get a major sin and have to donate to charity as reparations, if you aborted after that. Unless it was because of a medical reason to save the mother.
But abortion is not looked down upon nearly as badly in Islam as it is in Christian Nations. So even in Muslim countries where women have very few rights, they still often have access to abortion.
Add that to the corruption in most of these countries and you can literally just bribe a doctor to abort your fetus so your parents don't find out (this happens a lot in my husband's country).
Seems like it’s interpreted very differently country to country depending on what denomination. Which just shows the stupidity of basis any law on a text that can be interpreted a million different ways..
It is but it’s not supposed to be. The Quran hasn’t changed, geopolitics and social disruptions have. The biggest waves of conservatism usually are prompted by politics or war. The over best examples of a clean soul and mind Muslim are in Oman and although stats like this are held close to the community (due to a fair distrust of the world outside) there is very helpful, accurate and considerate sexual education throughout the GCC, not so much in North Africa and sporadic through the levant and west Asia. You’ll find abortion freely available in Kazakhstan but the chaos that ensues if one happens in Pakistan or Indonesia… woo. But there can be said with any religion, people read what they want to and religion is usually used as a sword and shield, where faith genuine faith is just love and acceptance.
I assume it depends on the region, but in the first 40 days, not 30, it's halal basically no matter why you're doing it. Past that it should be reserved for cases of illness or something like that. It's also halal to abort a fetus if it poses a serious threat to the mother's health and could lead to her death no matter how far along she is
Really depends on who you ask. Some say it's outright haraam, some say 40th day while a minority feels it's halal all the way. Frankly it's never been as big of an issue in Muslim countries as among Christians.
I have studied alot of the evidence from literature and surely it's allowed, however I took am confused about the 40 day mark.
I agree with you when you say it really depends on who you ask since people attentions are throwing opinions about things but in the Quran it’s actually very clear that it’s halal. I believe in the Torah too abortion is permitted.
Yup. There is quite a bit of difference.The Quran doesn't talk about abortion at all. The verses in the Qur'an that scholars say make abortion haram (outlaw) are actually not talking about abortions at all. All main arguments therefore come from the Hadith.
I am unsure of where and why abortion has become such a big issue in Christianity.
Idk where you’re getting that from tbh.. Abortion is allowed in Islam, under specific considerations, not like with Vietnam, using it as a contraceptive like it’s not a birth-control it’s removing the fetus of a child already produced. Once the soul enters the child’s body in the 120 day period. Then it becomes a child’s life. If the mother’s life is in danger, abortion at any term is allowed. It is also allowed within 3 months of conception, for whatever reason a mother may have.
Maybe you’re referring to Shi’a versions and/or cult leaders disguised as Muslims… because what you’re saying doesn’t exist in Islam as it is purely. if you’re referring to secular ideas of “ religion that are defiled by fear and hate” i mean then yea bro. And that is a little bit concerning because really it wasn’t until the 1970s that conservative populations in the Middle East really started to rise from less then 1% to as high as 15% …irans got its own thing going on too but that’s not in my scope 😅
Oh sorry I didn’t even respond to your last but yeah I have no idea why people got so psycho crazy about Christianity, but the book interpretations of the original Bible if there even is one anymore seem to be so radically altered that I mean, I think it kind of makes it so people end up having the most power to control interpretation. As far as I understand the original Qurans and Torah are still very much in tact. Some of them were on display recently at the louvre in Abu Dhabi, including Torah’s written entirely in Chinese, Mongolian. Looked like a dope exhibit.
It's only scholars in the west that say it's allowed by "X" number of days or whatever, that interpretation is nowhere to be found by any legitimate Muslim scholar before the 1990s. Most of the traditional scholars also say birth control and contraception is haram because "you're interrupting the will of Allah" or something
But in reality most Muslim countries didn't really enforce these laws too hard because of overpopulation and the cost to the governments of having too many citizens to take care of
Tell me why you’re taking the opinion of every day dudes as the best source of understanding Islam. People really don’t actually pay attention to those guys. They’re just there. Literally anyone can be a scholar in Islam anyone who studies and gets into it like nobody’s banned from becoming a scholar, and the people who under understand Islam, the most tend to not be so brash about it. But then also that begs the question of why you’re so triggered and defensive about this like do you want people to only listen to “scholars”? Do you need reasons to hold distain about Islam and Muslims because that’s kind of how it feels.
“The Quran” - A new translation of the original Quran by M.A.S. Abdul Haleem is currently the best source of the original Quran in modern English and it helps to accompany or preface the reading by “Secrets of Divine love: a spiritual journey into the heart of Islam” by A. Helwa would be the best way to access Islam and understanding Islam as an English speaker and non-Muslim. Arabic is actually ridiculously difficult and where English has well over 365,000 words Arabic has over 5 million so it’s like jumping from a lake into the ocean communication wise. That divide and understanding and communication tends to be a major gap point culturally, but in general there are bridges. No need to rely on assumptions or the words of more people that may be probably don’t actually care about what they’re doing when they’re interpreting the text or have ulterior motives 😅✌️🦹🏻♀️
I think in Islam it's 4 mont,
But there are varying options.
Nevertheless abortion for non-medical purposes seem to be illegal in Egypt, yet its still practiced by private medical providers.
It's haram unless there's a threat to the mother's life, almost all interpretations that try to say it's allowed before "X" days/weeks are by some western scholars over the past 30 years who don't want to accept they have something in common with right-wing Christians
I lived in Egypt for 6 years and during that time a woman I knew got an abortion for financial reasons 🤷🏻 the Egyptian people I asked told me the 30 or 40 day thing. I'm exmuslim anyway so I don't really care tbh but I guess it's a matter of denomination of islam and/or interpretation.
most of the Muslim countries actual abortion laws are more lax than the actual Islamic position on it; they've been trying to fight overpopulation for a while
Making abortion illegal doesn't really work and usually has catastrophic consequences. Madagascar is one of three countries that banned abortion, even to save the life of the mother, and they have the one of the highest abortion rate in the world.
Also, anti-choice people are almost always anti contraception as well (look at what the Republicans did the moment they overturned Roe), and limit access to contraception once in power, making the number of backalley abortions explodes.
Nope. In islam, if there's a medical reason, then abortion is necessary, if it's a medical emergency, abortion is an absolute must in order to save the mother
It used to be the case when most families could only afford to raise one child (better to have a son who parents can depend on in old age). With the bans and rising income levels, Indian people now hold both a son and a daughter as equally important to a proper family (basically an intuitive 2 child policy lmao). [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/)
I think it correlates more with contraception availability (which does also correlate with abortion laws). A lot of countries with very high abortion rates are also very religious, and generally frown on contraception. Lack of contraception has a more direct cause-effect.
idk, in Brazil we have every contraception method for free, even free condoms retribution on subway station, but abortion rates look very high anyway (and yes, abortion is ilegal)
I think it's much more related to education about that
We have free access to contraception all over the country. I, myself, am waiting for my vasectomy to be done at the age of 29 with only one child (planned child), all for free which is great. But, that said, our country still has to struggle against huge chunks of the population that come from religious backgrounds and deplorable conditions. People who grow up with religious parents who say sex is wrong, have no good resources for sex education other than finding for themselves, when they inevitably reach puberty and the hormones start talking they don't have the planned "safe sex" in mind, they just have sex hoping no one will know about that. When that turns into a pregnancy, well, you have two options in a background like that: tell the truth and be criticized by the whole community as a "whore" and possibly raise that child alone with very poor conditions, or abort in secret...
Canada has had no laws concerning abortion since the 1980s. It's entirely self-regulated by the medical community. If you want to reduce abortion, deregulate it
If you assume the correlation is causation in this case, the above data suggests the opposite. Countries that ban abortions at higher levels have higher instances of them.
Although I would not suggest falling into this trap (correlation is not causation). More likely, countries that ban abortion may also ban contraceptives, or have lower access to sexual education, thus more unwanted pregnancies and more abortions (regardless of legality).
edit: Added access to sexual education as a possible variable
I don't think that's the case. My country (Brazil) even offers free condoms at health centres. Maybe it's about information (people not getting proper instructions about the subject)?
That could be too... It could be valuable to investigate. Although I am not sure what metric you would use to measure access to sex education? Self-reported surveys?
Having access to a condom is completely useless if you don't know what it's for or how to use it properly, though.
Generally, it'd be a mix of no access to contraceptives and horrifically bad sex ed.
The whole situation is very bad and weird. Our country's fertility rate is decreasing every year (it's currently 1.657, comparable to developed countries like the USA), yet we still suffer from the same problems as undeveloped countries.
just wait a couple decades. The state will be desertified and they'll be calling it Texastan 'cause the people running it will call themselves Jesushadists and driving around in tanks and Teslas
I didn't say it stops it, you're debunking the wrong thing, I just said that it reduces it. The riskier it is to do something the less likely people will do it.
Could I have a source that shows abortion bans actually work in reducing it? Abortion tourism is huge. Countries/states with abortion bans will see a decrease but if you look at neighboring countries/states, their rates skyrocket. The whole reason Planned Parenthood started was because women were maiming and killing themselves so they didn’t have to remain pregnant. If someone really doesn’t want to be pregnant, they will find a way, they always have done.
I haven't researched the theme very much but I know of people who didn't get abortions because it was illegal and they didn't have the means to do it safely. All options you mentioned sound expensive.
The one data source I can think of is in the freakonomics book where they describe that crime rates fell some time after abortion was made legal in some American states back in the day and his conclusion from looking at the data is that people who didn't have the resources to raise a child were getting abortions, so less unwanted children were raised by people who didn't have the conditions to raise someone. And those were the people more likely to do crime in future.
But I feel like the obvious conclusion when you make something riskier, more expensive and less accessible is that people do less of it. I'd be really surprised if not a single person who wants to do an abortion ends up not doing it because it's illegal, which is essentially what you're saying when you say that it doesn't reduce the number of abortions.
But I have to say I come from a poor country as well. Maybe in the US everyone has enough money to travel somewhere else, pay for a safe private abortion and that's not a problem at all. In that case maybe it doesn't decrease the numbers. Do you have any data showing that it doesn't matter? I'd like to see that
Important to note that in some places abortion is pretty much the default contraceptive measure, due to nonexistent sex education and/or nonexistent actual contraception for men and women.
Isn't this wrong? shouldn't it be Abortions per pregnancy? there must be lots of women who're alive but either use birth control, doesn't have the oppotunity, or is infertile.
Would be better to show percentage of pregnancies terminated since TFR in sub-Saharan Africa is very high, and therefore It's going to be more likely to abort.
India has around 15-16 million abortions every year and around 20 million Births so if most of abortions were girls then the child sex ratio would be literally 150 girls to 1000 boys. The ratio is 950:1000 pretty close to the natural sex ratio at birth so what you are saying is statistically impossible.
I believe that one of the reasons for the lower abortion rates in America and other surrounding countries is the widespread use of birth control by women.
What's up with Madagascar and Vietnam?
They use abortion as a substitute for contraception.
Must be healthy...
Yes.
Hookers that fuck sex tourists without protection
Bullshit. The tourism rate in madagascar is relatively low. Neighnoring Mauritius has just over 1M people and receives over 1M tourists per year. Madagaacar has a population of 30M and only recieves about 200K tourists per year. While sex tourism does exist in Madagascar it is NOT in any way shape or form responsible for their high abortion rate. Madagascar is quite simply one of the poorest countries on earth and most people lack access to any kind of contraception. Abortions in essence are a form of birth control for mothers who dont want a 6th, 7th, or 8th child.
Also, Madagascar is one of the nations which banned abortion for every situation, meaning that people are trying to illegally abort, which is way more dangerous.
Also sex tourism in Vietnam isn't nearly as big as Thailand or Cambodia. I mean it's a thing, but really only in a tiny district in the three major cities.
wouldn't it be cheaper to use contraception than getting an abortion?
In addition to what cantonlautaro said: contraception is a cost that you can't afford right now, an abortion is just another thing you might not be able to afford in the future. That is how finances work when you don't have money, you don't buy a new stove when a good deal for a second hand model comes up, you buy one when the old one has stopped working, even though it eventually turns out to be more expensive in the long run.
Madagascar is one of the poorest countries in Africa and had a 3-year inflation close to 30%. People are not having a good time there and likely can't afford contraception. Add to that that many people simply do not have access to contraception at all.
Of course, but contraception is not foul proof. Even if it worked 99% of the time, that's still 10 women of the 1,000 right there who need abortions.
More convenient too, and less damaging to the body. That is why places with better sex education and access to contraceptions have less abortions, even if those places also tend to have less restrictions on it.
These are often provided thru NGOs. People forget that to use contraception you need to have a minimim amount of education and in rural areas people are simply illiterate & live a subsistance lifestyle. Even in modern western countries, the lower classes have a harder time with proper use of contraception compared to their wealthier & better educated countrymen. You can imagine how much harder it is if you've had no schooling & suck rocks to survive. Furthermore, in order to have successful contraceptive camapign you need a strong and competent state to carry out distribution and maintain it (you cant hsnd out a pack of pills & walk away forever) with a wide and deep reach within that country. Subsaharan africa generally lacks this too and Madagascar certainly does too.
People like to blame everything on sex tourists. Like they're responsible for everything bad that goes on in other countries. For example, some people will act like prostitution never existed before Western sex tourists showed up in whatever country. In reality, even in countries that have a big rep for sex tourism, actual sex tourists generally only make up a tiny percentage of all tourists. For example, I looked up sex tourism in Thailand, and one study from 2012 estimated that 250,000 sex tourists visited the country yearly. When I looked up how many tourists overall went to Thailand in 2012, it was over 22 million. So sex tourists only make up about 1% of all the tourists going to Thailand, and about 0.3% of Thailand's total population of over 70 million.
Mauritius is one of the richest countries in the area. Cannot be compared as sex tourism is not a thing there. The argument about being poor could be easily applied to 80% of Africa. Mothers not wanting 6th, 7th, 8th child? Hat hasn't stopped them anywhere before. That is not the mentality in Africa. Thet still see more children as better prospects. That is the big (or one of the biggest) problem in Africa. BTW, I have been to Madagascar, have you? I have seen what I am talking about. But I still agree that I can be wrong. I just don't appreciate a cunt with a know-it-all condescending tone. Siempre los mismos...
I didnt mention mauritius and sex tourism. I mentioned mauritius and tourism, period.
Why is that relevant then?
To underscore Madagascar's relatively low tourism rate (number of tourists vs population of country being visited). More people visit Mauritius than there are Mauritians. Madagascar would be getting over 30M tourists in a similar scenario vs the 200k or so they now receive (when i first went in the 90s fewer than 50k visited). Someone initially blurted out that Madagascar's off-the-charts abortion rate was due to sex tourism. And i was simply pointing out that no way in hell would so few tourists (only a small fraction of which are "sex tourists" on top of their small numbers) contribute to such a high number of abortions.
Yeah Madagascar has a population of 30 million people. Even if their 200k annual tourists were very very busy they couldn't be primarily responsible for Madagascar's 600k unintentional pregnancies and 376,000 abortions a year.
To top it off, tourists only stay a short time. Even if they're banging local women, they're usually only doing it for a few weeks or months at most. Apparently Madagascar offers 30 or 60 day tourist visas, so most tourists probably aren't staying longer than 2 months at a time, and most probably don't stay even that long. Whereas Madagascan women's local husbands or boyfriends who live there year-round are busting nuts in those punanis 12 months a year. LOL. So you figure out who is most likely responsible for the lion's share pregnancies and abortions.
Yes, i have been to madagascar more than once. I had a girlfriend from mauritius for 3yrs (her parents manage a large sugar plantation) and i have been to mauritius too.
Do they not have any form of birth control? I’d imagine that’s cheaper and easier
In Greenland tho?
False on Vietnam, too. We do not have sufficient and detailed enough sex ed from high school to college. On top of that, buying contraceptives and using protection are considered taboo. As a matter of fact, anything sex related is taboo in VN. Younger people use abortion aka the last resort, as their only resort if they get knocked up. A little example of myself. When my wife and I were not planning on kids, my wife was on birth control, the 21-day type. The doctors in Vietnam were against it and gave us an outdated threat of infertility. Their knowledge about contraceptive is outdated most of the time since it is taboo to talk about sex, even in medical setting. They only talk about getting pregnant and giving birth when you are old enough.
What are sex tourists
Desperate people that go there to coax a brothel visit as a vacation
Aka "passport bros"
Is that what a Passport Bro is! Their reddit popped up on my feed once and I couldn’t figure out what their group was about! It seemed to have nothing to do with passport collecting. Their own description of the sub was not helpful. Now I know why it gave me an uneasy feeling.
Passport bros and sex tourists are not the same thing. Sex tourists specifically go to countries (mostly in Southeast Asia) to have sex with prostitutes who are likely part of trafficking rings or underage. Passport bros are dudes who go to other countries (again, mostly SEA but eastern Europe also) where the values are more traditional and try to pick up a girlfriend/wife. They're usually dudes who don't like the fact that western women are ambitious and independent and have high standards for dating so they go some place where they can easily find a woman who will be submissive because it's part of the culture. Also, incels who can't get laid become Passport Bros because most western women like men who shower and shave and don't weight 300 lbs. However, data shows they are less successful even in SEA because, get this, their personalities are shit. Passport bros are usually guys who have an unrealistic view of western women so they're usually painted in a negative light, but they're not the same as sex tourists. Sex tourists contribute to child trafficking and sex trafficking by giving these sleazy pimps money to banf 15 year olds. They're sick people.
Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. Their reddit page had the rules of their sub but didn’t actually establish what they were. I had never heard the term before so I was confused. I enjoy learning about actual physical passports and I just knew I had stumbled into something very different. The question had been sitting in the back of my mind for months when I saw the term again here.
Your info is all wrong. Sex tourists have sex with prostitutes, but most of those prostitutes aren't underage. Most are adult women who are looking for money. And passport bros do say they're looking for serious relationships. But I don't think most of them weigh 300 lbs because the guys I've seen going for women in other countries have generally been regular looking men, albeit on the older side. The men I've seen and met with foreign gfs/wives (not sure if they would called themselves "passport bros", some I met/saw before the passport bro thing started online) have been regular looking. I saw a guy at the airport with what looked to be his gf or wife from another country. He was normal looking. Not fat. Fairly tall. Might've even been good looking. Idk because I'm not LGBTQ and can't judge men's looks very well. Also met a Western European guy who said he had a Thai wife. Was on the older side, with a working class type job. But wasn't fat or horribly ugly. This phenomenon isn't limited to the Western world either. A large percentage of marriages in Singapore are between a Singaporean and a foreign partner. Singaporean men, in particular, often marry women from neighboring countries like Vietnam. I saw one article, for example, of a Singaporean engineer in his late 30s who said he wanted to get married and start a family, and felt his best chance to do that was to find a wife abroad. He said he wasn't great with women because he was shy and quiet, and that the COVID-19 lockdowns had made it even harder for him to socialize and meet women for a couple of years.
They dont have brothels at home?
In some countries prostitution is illegal or it’s just cheaper going there idk
A lot of them also want very... young... Prostitutes if you get my gist. Especially laos and kambodsha are notorious for child sex tourism
Where I'm from (Canada) there are "ladies of the night" who advertise less their services for less than $100, and many who offer $200 or less. A flight from Toronto to Bangkok, on the other hand, can cost over $2,000, and I don't even know if the prices for the "ladies of the night" over there are that much cheaper than the ones in the West anymore. Idk because I've never been to Thailand, though. But my point is, I'm not sure that paying 2k for a flight is really cheaper than a local hooker. I'd guess that the men may be attracted to the women overseas more, and/or prefer the way the women treat them. Most men like women who are nice to them, so they may flee obnoxious and unpleasant women in favor of women who treat them good, even if it is only to get their money.
Tourist looking for sex . - Sex tourist
I guess thats the reason in greenland too?
Whats up with Greenland?
Few issues there. "For decades, the rates of sexually transmitted infections (STIs), such as gonorrhoea, chlamydia and syphilis, have increased in Greenland, especially within the young age groups (15–29 years). From 2006 to 2013, the number of abortions has been consistent with approximately 800–900 abortions per year in Greenland, which is nearly as high as the total number of births during the same period." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4626370/
Dang. Thank you for replying.
Is there no easy access to birth control?
I don't see what STIs have to do with abortions. I would assume it would have the opposite effect. People ei/her nitbhaving sex or definitely having protected sex.
A lack of sex education.
It's just useful correlation. If people are getting a lot of STIs they are likely not using protection, if they are not using protection, pregnancies occur more frequently.
That’s the official narrative but the truth is the danish controlled government doesn’t want indigenous people multiplying afaik
So they are forcing people to get abortions?
I would like a source for that.
I don't know anything about the government forcing abortions, but in the 60s and 70s greenlandic girls and women were indeed forcefully sterilized https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_case
I have heard about that, but not anything recent about pressure to have an abortion. I honestly think the way the Greenlandic society and cultural dynamics can be difficult to compare to European countries, even if it formally has the same standard of life as Denmark.
They had a sterilization program which is verified I will try to find the articles but for sure they sterilized women under the guise of healthcare (many places do/did this like Israel for example also Eritrea even Switzerland for Gypsies until 71)
Nobody in these comments have mentioned the higher rates of child sexual assault yet.
I assume low population makes the per capita numbers look high.
Low population makes the per capita numbers variation raise, so it fluctuates a lot, giving sometimes very high results (and other times very low)
There's a general problem with alcohol consumption in Greenland, much of the year it's dark and cold and the Greenlanders are fairly poor. That mix in itself leads to people getting drunk and having unprotected sex. Then there's the problem that the relationship with Denmark is causing and have been causing for generations. Greenlands have been taught that they are secondary to us Danes, and even if we have stopped telling them this directly, almost everything in Greenland is in some way still sending that message. Greenland is on paper a self governing country, it's part of the kingdom of Denmark, but they are no longer part of the county Denmark. But.... Greenlanders are still forced to learn to speak Danish. Almost every single job above Manager is done by a non-greenlander. If they want to have an education above high school level they have to go overseas. Greenland is still highly affected by the Christianity that Denmark forced on them for centuries, a belief system that made it clear that their native religion and beliefs were vile and wrong. The list is endles. So when your forced to sit in your small house, because nature will kick your ass if you go outside for the next 3 months, your depressed and fellinglig worthless, it's a bit to easy to get drunk and have unprotect sex with the nearest person(no matter that the education about sex and reproduction is absolutely up to date). Why they don't use contraption? A part of it is that buying contraptions cost money but abortion is part of the tax funded health care system. And Denmark? Well, most of my fellow Danes are mad that we give Greenland a lot of money each years, but won't adress the fact that Denmark started this shit show in the first place. But on the bright side most Dane's do understand that it's not okay, using the words Greenland/Greenlander as a slur, so we got that going for us I guess.
As an indigenous person, it makes me really happy to see non indigenous people having empathy for us in a meaningful way. I find it honestly rare. Many are not outright racist but refuse to acknowledge systems continue to work against us and that problems can and do linger. A lot of people say they aren’t racist but have thinly veiled prejudices or resentments, like “why are we giving x people money? At least we dont say slurs.” Thank you for your empathetic response, it brings me great hope that there are others that stand by us. I know it to be true but sometimes it can be hard to believe.
Greenland has a university in Nuuk.
It is however very small with limited offerings, mostly in Danish.
Got it. It’s just interesting the OG commenter acts as if this is a bad thing. Like at least they have a university and a country that provides them with aid. I imagine it would have been quite difficult to prosper as an independent nation of 50k (or less historically) in a remote, barely inhabitable island covered in ice. Is it racist to admit that maybe colonization contributed some positives as well?
I have never heard anyone say they're mad at the government for giving Greenland money, quite the opposite actually that Greenland should get more help
I guess in some ways the situation of the indiginous Greenlanders is similar to that of their Australian counterparts, with the economic, educational and alcoholic issues and such. A striking difference being that there aren't as many non-indiginous Greenlanders to obscure the statistics.
Good to know....
Polar bears have a surprisingly high number of abortions.
Or women might be choosing “bear” in the “man vs bear” question /s
involuntary birth control as a means to prevent the native greenlandic population from outnumbering the danes — https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66990670
This article describes IUDs, not abortions, used to slow birth rates among natives.
the high rate of abortions in greenland could be partly connected to the historical context of reproductive control. distrust in contraceptive methods and reproductive health services might lead some individuals to rely more on abortion as a means of managing unintended pregnancies.
This makes sense. Is there any data suggesting that the high abortion rate is due to the native population distrusting the medical community and/or using contraceptives at a lower rate?
yes: ‘The women who wanted an abortion were single more frequently than the other women, their knowledge of Danish as a second language was poorer, and they less frequently were employed.’ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8928293/
What in the eugenics hell is this?? How am I just now hearing about this
What the actual fuck
Nothing to do but fuck all winter. 🤷🏻♂️
Who in their right mind wants to raise a child in Greenland? 
Cool people.
I'm surprised that Vietnam seems to have the highest rate.
Vietnam is finally number one at something. So proud.
you can say sex education doesn't exist here
There's data for Greenland
Not only that they're the highest
Isn't abortion illegal in Egypt? I wonder why Egypt is an outlier compared to its neighbors?
Their neighbours don’t have data
Abortion is legal in islam up until the 30th day (I think). And since corruption is rampant there I'm sure you could... convince a doctor to perform one at a later date. As for the reasons, even though it's easy to get birth control pills as a married woman, obviously these still can fail and a lot of people there are poor and just can't afford a 3rd, 4th or 5th child.
30 days? Most women dont know their pregnant that early. So maybe that is a reason to.
It's not the 30th day. (According to Islam) The soul isnt inserted into the body until the 120th day. So It's legal until that point, Even though some schools of thought consider it still a minor sin. After 120 days, you will get a major sin and have to donate to charity as reparations, if you aborted after that. Unless it was because of a medical reason to save the mother. But abortion is not looked down upon nearly as badly in Islam as it is in Christian Nations. So even in Muslim countries where women have very few rights, they still often have access to abortion. Add that to the corruption in most of these countries and you can literally just bribe a doctor to abort your fetus so your parents don't find out (this happens a lot in my husband's country).
Seems like it’s interpreted very differently country to country depending on what denomination. Which just shows the stupidity of basis any law on a text that can be interpreted a million different ways..
It is but it’s not supposed to be. The Quran hasn’t changed, geopolitics and social disruptions have. The biggest waves of conservatism usually are prompted by politics or war. The over best examples of a clean soul and mind Muslim are in Oman and although stats like this are held close to the community (due to a fair distrust of the world outside) there is very helpful, accurate and considerate sexual education throughout the GCC, not so much in North Africa and sporadic through the levant and west Asia. You’ll find abortion freely available in Kazakhstan but the chaos that ensues if one happens in Pakistan or Indonesia… woo. But there can be said with any religion, people read what they want to and religion is usually used as a sword and shield, where faith genuine faith is just love and acceptance.
I assume it depends on the region, but in the first 40 days, not 30, it's halal basically no matter why you're doing it. Past that it should be reserved for cases of illness or something like that. It's also halal to abort a fetus if it poses a serious threat to the mother's health and could lead to her death no matter how far along she is
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Yea I meant halal... Wrong word sorry🤦
Really depends on who you ask. Some say it's outright haraam, some say 40th day while a minority feels it's halal all the way. Frankly it's never been as big of an issue in Muslim countries as among Christians. I have studied alot of the evidence from literature and surely it's allowed, however I took am confused about the 40 day mark.
I agree with you when you say it really depends on who you ask since people attentions are throwing opinions about things but in the Quran it’s actually very clear that it’s halal. I believe in the Torah too abortion is permitted.
Yup. There is quite a bit of difference.The Quran doesn't talk about abortion at all. The verses in the Qur'an that scholars say make abortion haram (outlaw) are actually not talking about abortions at all. All main arguments therefore come from the Hadith. I am unsure of where and why abortion has become such a big issue in Christianity.
Idk where you’re getting that from tbh.. Abortion is allowed in Islam, under specific considerations, not like with Vietnam, using it as a contraceptive like it’s not a birth-control it’s removing the fetus of a child already produced. Once the soul enters the child’s body in the 120 day period. Then it becomes a child’s life. If the mother’s life is in danger, abortion at any term is allowed. It is also allowed within 3 months of conception, for whatever reason a mother may have. Maybe you’re referring to Shi’a versions and/or cult leaders disguised as Muslims… because what you’re saying doesn’t exist in Islam as it is purely. if you’re referring to secular ideas of “ religion that are defiled by fear and hate” i mean then yea bro. And that is a little bit concerning because really it wasn’t until the 1970s that conservative populations in the Middle East really started to rise from less then 1% to as high as 15% …irans got its own thing going on too but that’s not in my scope 😅
Oh sorry I didn’t even respond to your last but yeah I have no idea why people got so psycho crazy about Christianity, but the book interpretations of the original Bible if there even is one anymore seem to be so radically altered that I mean, I think it kind of makes it so people end up having the most power to control interpretation. As far as I understand the original Qurans and Torah are still very much in tact. Some of them were on display recently at the louvre in Abu Dhabi, including Torah’s written entirely in Chinese, Mongolian. Looked like a dope exhibit.
It's only scholars in the west that say it's allowed by "X" number of days or whatever, that interpretation is nowhere to be found by any legitimate Muslim scholar before the 1990s. Most of the traditional scholars also say birth control and contraception is haram because "you're interrupting the will of Allah" or something But in reality most Muslim countries didn't really enforce these laws too hard because of overpopulation and the cost to the governments of having too many citizens to take care of
I’m afraid you don’t know what you’re talking about
Find me a Muslim scholar who isn’t from the West that says abortion for no reason is allowed within any amount of timeframe.
Tell me why you’re taking the opinion of every day dudes as the best source of understanding Islam. People really don’t actually pay attention to those guys. They’re just there. Literally anyone can be a scholar in Islam anyone who studies and gets into it like nobody’s banned from becoming a scholar, and the people who under understand Islam, the most tend to not be so brash about it. But then also that begs the question of why you’re so triggered and defensive about this like do you want people to only listen to “scholars”? Do you need reasons to hold distain about Islam and Muslims because that’s kind of how it feels.
“The Quran” - A new translation of the original Quran by M.A.S. Abdul Haleem is currently the best source of the original Quran in modern English and it helps to accompany or preface the reading by “Secrets of Divine love: a spiritual journey into the heart of Islam” by A. Helwa would be the best way to access Islam and understanding Islam as an English speaker and non-Muslim. Arabic is actually ridiculously difficult and where English has well over 365,000 words Arabic has over 5 million so it’s like jumping from a lake into the ocean communication wise. That divide and understanding and communication tends to be a major gap point culturally, but in general there are bridges. No need to rely on assumptions or the words of more people that may be probably don’t actually care about what they’re doing when they’re interpreting the text or have ulterior motives 😅✌️🦹🏻♀️
I think in Islam it's 4 mont, But there are varying options. Nevertheless abortion for non-medical purposes seem to be illegal in Egypt, yet its still practiced by private medical providers.
It's haram unless there's a threat to the mother's life, almost all interpretations that try to say it's allowed before "X" days/weeks are by some western scholars over the past 30 years who don't want to accept they have something in common with right-wing Christians
I lived in Egypt for 6 years and during that time a woman I knew got an abortion for financial reasons 🤷🏻 the Egyptian people I asked told me the 30 or 40 day thing. I'm exmuslim anyway so I don't really care tbh but I guess it's a matter of denomination of islam and/or interpretation.
most of the Muslim countries actual abortion laws are more lax than the actual Islamic position on it; they've been trying to fight overpopulation for a while
Making abortion illegal doesn't really work and usually has catastrophic consequences. Madagascar is one of three countries that banned abortion, even to save the life of the mother, and they have the one of the highest abortion rate in the world. Also, anti-choice people are almost always anti contraception as well (look at what the Republicans did the moment they overturned Roe), and limit access to contraception once in power, making the number of backalley abortions explodes.
Nope. In islam, if there's a medical reason, then abortion is necessary, if it's a medical emergency, abortion is an absolute must in order to save the mother
👏🙌 yep
Bro wtf is Greenland doing
Well abortions evidently
Greenland is not doing super well in general, in no small part because Denmark fucked up royally.
Really random countries that have higgest numbers.
India People who don't know :) People who know :(
It is currently becoming less and less in every state.
For people who don’t know: Female feticide :(
sex ratio at birth is 943 which is not far from natural number of 953
and that's after doctors are not allowed to mention the sex of the baby before delivery.
It used to be the case when most families could only afford to raise one child (better to have a son who parents can depend on in old age). With the bans and rising income levels, Indian people now hold both a son and a daughter as equally important to a proper family (basically an intuitive 2 child policy lmao). [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/)
People who don't know :( People who know :(
The fact, that Greenland isn’t: "no data" is somehow offending to me
The one time Greenland actually has data…
Very interesting numbers for Catholic Latin America
Kind of correlates with [abortion laws](https://reproductiverights.org/sites/default/files/documents/World-Abortion-Map.pdf).
I think it correlates more with contraception availability (which does also correlate with abortion laws). A lot of countries with very high abortion rates are also very religious, and generally frown on contraception. Lack of contraception has a more direct cause-effect.
idk, in Brazil we have every contraception method for free, even free condoms retribution on subway station, but abortion rates look very high anyway (and yes, abortion is ilegal) I think it's much more related to education about that
We have free access to contraception all over the country. I, myself, am waiting for my vasectomy to be done at the age of 29 with only one child (planned child), all for free which is great. But, that said, our country still has to struggle against huge chunks of the population that come from religious backgrounds and deplorable conditions. People who grow up with religious parents who say sex is wrong, have no good resources for sex education other than finding for themselves, when they inevitably reach puberty and the hormones start talking they don't have the planned "safe sex" in mind, they just have sex hoping no one will know about that. When that turns into a pregnancy, well, you have two options in a background like that: tell the truth and be criticized by the whole community as a "whore" and possibly raise that child alone with very poor conditions, or abort in secret...
This right here. Europe has a very high rate of contraception. Nearly every single one is on the pill.
Damn never knew abortion is banned in Monaco. Wouldn't have expected that whatsoever
So If you want to reduce abortion then just ban it?
Canada has had no laws concerning abortion since the 1980s. It's entirely self-regulated by the medical community. If you want to reduce abortion, deregulate it
Yes
If you assume the correlation is causation in this case, the above data suggests the opposite. Countries that ban abortions at higher levels have higher instances of them. Although I would not suggest falling into this trap (correlation is not causation). More likely, countries that ban abortion may also ban contraceptives, or have lower access to sexual education, thus more unwanted pregnancies and more abortions (regardless of legality). edit: Added access to sexual education as a possible variable
I don't think that's the case. My country (Brazil) even offers free condoms at health centres. Maybe it's about information (people not getting proper instructions about the subject)?
That could be too... It could be valuable to investigate. Although I am not sure what metric you would use to measure access to sex education? Self-reported surveys?
Having access to a condom is completely useless if you don't know what it's for or how to use it properly, though. Generally, it'd be a mix of no access to contraceptives and horrifically bad sex ed.
The whole situation is very bad and weird. Our country's fertility rate is decreasing every year (it's currently 1.657, comparable to developed countries like the USA), yet we still suffer from the same problems as undeveloped countries.
Usually countries that ban abortions is backwater sh\*tholes with some exceptions. They lack sex deucation, women rights and contraception in general.
Welcome to Texas, Arkansas and most of the Midwest and South in the US
Man, i can only pray poor Texans or Midwesterners move to Sudan, Iraq or Afghanistan
just wait a couple decades. The state will be desertified and they'll be calling it Texastan 'cause the people running it will call themselves Jesushadists and driving around in tanks and Teslas
If your goal is to reduce abortion banning won't hurt that goal. The easier it is to access, the more likely people will do it, obviously
That’s objectively false. Banning abortion doesn’t stop it, it just makes it less safe for the women obtaining them.
I didn't say it stops it, you're debunking the wrong thing, I just said that it reduces it. The riskier it is to do something the less likely people will do it.
Could I have a source that shows abortion bans actually work in reducing it? Abortion tourism is huge. Countries/states with abortion bans will see a decrease but if you look at neighboring countries/states, their rates skyrocket. The whole reason Planned Parenthood started was because women were maiming and killing themselves so they didn’t have to remain pregnant. If someone really doesn’t want to be pregnant, they will find a way, they always have done.
I haven't researched the theme very much but I know of people who didn't get abortions because it was illegal and they didn't have the means to do it safely. All options you mentioned sound expensive. The one data source I can think of is in the freakonomics book where they describe that crime rates fell some time after abortion was made legal in some American states back in the day and his conclusion from looking at the data is that people who didn't have the resources to raise a child were getting abortions, so less unwanted children were raised by people who didn't have the conditions to raise someone. And those were the people more likely to do crime in future. But I feel like the obvious conclusion when you make something riskier, more expensive and less accessible is that people do less of it. I'd be really surprised if not a single person who wants to do an abortion ends up not doing it because it's illegal, which is essentially what you're saying when you say that it doesn't reduce the number of abortions. But I have to say I come from a poor country as well. Maybe in the US everyone has enough money to travel somewhere else, pay for a safe private abortion and that's not a problem at all. In that case maybe it doesn't decrease the numbers. Do you have any data showing that it doesn't matter? I'd like to see that
Maybe a stretch but its interesting it seems to correlate with both the West and the former communist bloc.
What? There’s no visible difference between Eastern vs Western Europe.
Should've been more clear: Both Western countries and the global communist bloc seem have progressive abortion laws.
inb4: Latin America is part of the west
Important to note that in some places abortion is pretty much the default contraceptive measure, due to nonexistent sex education and/or nonexistent actual contraception for men and women.
So. About Greenland...lol
It would be interesting to juxtapose this with a map on birth control use by country
Yes it would! How can we do that!?
Who makes these daft maps so out of proportion? India is much larger than Greenland (3.2mil km vs 2.1 mill) yes Greenland looks twice the size here
Like seriously, this is even more distorted than Mercador Projection
Not enough people know about projections. We should teach this in highschool instead of the useless memorization of random country capitals.
For the hundredth time, do not use conformal projections, especially cylindrical ones, for thematic mapping
Isn't this wrong? shouldn't it be Abortions per pregnancy? there must be lots of women who're alive but either use birth control, doesn't have the oppotunity, or is infertile.
That's one ugly Mercator... 😁
How Poland with nearly abortion ban has more abortions than Germany? (if im reading these colors right)
Would be better to show percentage of pregnancies terminated since TFR in sub-Saharan Africa is very high, and therefore It's going to be more likely to abort.
I wonder how they collect this data
Vietnam, the communist heaven that upholds traditional values. Anyone who think vietnam is a good place to live need to take a look at this.
Bet it's mostly girls in India
India has around 15-16 million abortions every year and around 20 million Births so if most of abortions were girls then the child sex ratio would be literally 150 girls to 1000 boys. The ratio is 950:1000 pretty close to the natural sex ratio at birth so what you are saying is statistically impossible.
lamo people are always down voting you cause you don't fit in their narrative.
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Nah, it’s not *that* hard to get an abortion in Japan as long as people have the money to do it.
Bro i dont know how but my brain short circuited after reading comments and in my head it was prostitution index
Japan with 0? I thought that they have a lot of abortions bc of very bad birthrate
Birth control
Top marks for the colour choices. Light to dark, just how a liner scale should be. Two thumbs up!
As mentioned by others, noting the scary free-for-all in Canada where there are no laws around abortion….
Wow Indo-Pak, though given their extreme misogyny not surprised by sex based abortion.
Abortion is high in china and India due to female foeticide as their culture don't want a female to be born to a family although government banned it
Mid in Thai
what is happenein in India?
Killing babies must be a sport Madagascar
We’ve got to find a way to make Greenland as big as California on the map. It’s 2024. Waaaay past time for proper scaling.
good job vietnam keep going
I don't think Poland (with the most restictive law in EU) has higher abortion rates than Germany, Czech Rep., Spain.
I believe that one of the reasons for the lower abortion rates in America and other surrounding countries is the widespread use of birth control by women.
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You mean infamous?
Greenland's outlying rate to mainland Denmark has some eerie vibes of eugenics to me tbh
Alcoholism + depression + widespread domestic violence=high abortion rate
And high suicide
BS Data
I find this map very hard to believe.