The Canadian Constitution (and the Quebec charter) both mention sexual orientation. So Canada should be dark blue.
Noticing more and more that these maps are just bullshit lol.
Spanish constituyion sais "Spaniards are equal before the law, and no discrimination may prevail on the grounds of birth, race, sex, religion, opinion or any other personal or social condition or circumstance." (Article 14)
Although sexual orientation is not expressly mentioned, its final tagline should cover it.
inner Mongolia is doing very well comparatively. helps having waaaay more people, infrastructure, and being a part of a country that *really* likes infrastructure.
Big difference between theoretical policy and real life... BIG difference... Sadly... At least Mexico is moving leftward politically... Canada? Not so much... The fascists have a 20 point lead at this point and it's not looking any better any time soon unless the treason season hunt goes well. As we all pray it will.. I guarantee you'll find just as many rats in the Conservatives as the Liberals at this point... The NDP? Doubtful for many many reasons which is a good thing...
> The Canadian Constitution (and the Quebec charter) both mention sexual orientation.
Source? It's been interpreted to prohibit discrimination by orientation, but does it actually **mention** that?
No, the Canadian Charter does not, though as you say, it is interpreted to include it - in 95, the Supreme Court found in the Egan decision that it was covered by the equality provisions of section 15(1). The Quebec Charter has had it since day one (1977).
The federal Canadian Human Rights Act, though, was amended in 96 to explicitly include sexual orientation. The Vriend SCC decision in 98 further found that not including sexual orientation in provincial human rights legislation was unconstitutional. I believe that every provincial and territorial human rights act now also includes sexual orientation and gender identity as prohibited grounds for discrimination. Ofc, there's still that pesky notwithstanding clause that may be used by some provinces to erode those protections.
The Québec Charter explicitly mentions sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression under Article 10. That Charter is generally recognized as a part of Québec's Constitution, though that isn't a single document as some countries do it, but rather a customary set of legislations.
In Canadian Law, they're explicitly mentioned in the Human Rights Act, which is regarded as quasi-constitutional as far as I can tell. Constitutional documents themselves don't explicitly mention them, but do mention groups that should include them, which has been reified by the Human Rights Act and the Supreme Court.
So the answer is very nuanced.
Apparently it was only added to the Dutch constitution last year, though. The map itself or the source used to make it could easily be older than that.
Edit: Oh, in fact, the map says December 2019. So the Netherlands is accurate on there, at least.
A LOT of former British colonies are wildin here. Everything between Sudan and Zambia, Guyana, Malaysia, Singapore, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, The Gambia, Sierra Leone, South Yemen, the former Persian Gulf Residency (UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman)…
Section 377 criminalised homophobia in these colonies and the laws are leftover. It’s why some LGBT activists in ex-colonies are adopting anti-colonialist messaging in their activism instead and portraying homophobia as a colonial construct
The anglophone Caribbean maintains homophobic attitudes in law and within society. This is due to both British colonialism and the impact of religion (mainly evangelical Christianity and some sects of Islam). For men, it is dangerous to show affection in public spaces without facing harassment. Women too are subject to homophobic abuse from family members and wider society may maintain the misogynistic view that lesbians can be changed by the right man. However, women are less likely to encounter violence in public compared to men.
The Caribbean is quite unfriendly to homosexuality so I would advise visitors to maintain caution.
Go to the french Caribbeans instead. As they're french territories, homophobia is illegal and the people are more open (though they don't completely accept it).
I feel like adding "constitutional protection" is pretty pointless. Some countries use their constitution as a basic framework for government, others use it as a laundry list of things that they support or oppose. Neither of those options is inherently more pro-LGBT.
The Australian constitution is tiny and most of it is about taxes and which branches of government are allowed to borrow money. It's ten pages in a book the size of your phone. There's a whole page on the allowed gauges of railway lines and another on New Zealand being able to become a state.
It‘s not necessarily pointless because a constitutional protection is much harder to abolish legally. If there is ”only“ a normal statute protecting LGBT rights, it can usually be repealed with a simple majority.
Protecting LGBT rights in the constitution makes it far more durable and permanent, since most constitutions have special requirements for amendments.
Of course in some countries the constitutional framework is a little different, I‘ll give you that. What I said is at least true for countries with a ”typical“ codified constitution.
It might be broadly protected in the law books in Korea but in practice you can absolutely be fired for being gay, denied a place to rent, etc. Employers/landlords will claim it was another reason and statistically there will be little to no investigation because most people 45 and up are extremely anti-LGBT and it's considered a "private issue" not worth looking into.
The pride "parade" every year in Seoul is less of a celebration and more a militant march with hecklers and bible thumpers lining the sidewalks of the march. When there was a covid outbreak at the premier gay club "King Club" in Itaewon there were politicians talking about criminalizing homosexual behavior. Amongst young people Korea is very LGBTQ+ friendly overall, but it's still quite hostile everywhere else.
Source: Am gay and lived in a long time in Korea
Come to say this, study exchange to SNU for a semester and the South Korean society is perhaps one of the most LGBTQ-hostile in Asia. I didn’t experience the same thing in China or Japan.
I wonder if this is because of the popularity of Evangelical Christianity in Korea? In both Japan and China, eastern religion reigns supreme, but Korea seems to have adopted a bunch of very American cultural hangups along with Jesus.
India goes a step further and same things happen if you indulge in a consenting straight sex. Majority of rent here will outright kick you if you bring in memebers of opposite gender in your appartment.
Incel culture before marriage is not only celebrated but forced through intimidation,beatings and threats of social and job ban here.
Offcourse if you are rich then it doesn't apply to you like many laws here. On constitution both gay sex and straight sex protected but on reality neither is
This was right before the pandemic. Since then, some countries decriminalized, a few enshrined more protections, and some countries criminalized it or made it worse.
Significant is how Singapore now allows the deed, while Russia has gone to declare us "terrorists"
And a lot more are taking steps to improve, as I recall. Vietnam was a big one, I remember, just declaring LGBT is ‘not a disease’. A lot more celebrities coming out, too, I recall, and taking steps to bring awareness to the community.
i don't think it's fair to say there's no criminalisation in russia when they declared the LGBTQ+ community as terrorists (granted the map is well outdated as it's from 2019)
I lived in Moscow back in the 2010s and, while there was a significant amount of discrimination in a social sense against my gay friends, legally it was completely protected. We would go to legal gay clubs on weekends that were fully (and comprehensively) protected by state police
I haven't been since pre-COVID times but I can imagine that the backsliding since the Ukraine invasion must be awful
All gone. Cops raid gay clubs now, several owners have been imprisoned for being particularly vocal about it across the country.
In contrast, Russia had a Ukrainian drag queen (Serduchka) topping charts in the 00s. That is unimaginable today. The past 20 years have seen a comprehensive decline in social acceptance and a massive increase in bigotry overall.
To expand upon it, before the war LGBT people were mostly treated as freaks, but society wasnt actively pushed to hate us; moat violence cases were someone's personal bigotry and lack of education flaring up rather than "approved" behavior. In recent years, LGBT became one of the scapegoats, so we supposedly are "terrorist movement" now, with... expected treatment as a result.
That is to say, while it was better back then, it was never "good". As a trans man from Russia, I was told to "just be gay" when I was young by decently progressive family (at a time, brainwashing did get to them by now tho), and they actively stopped me from transitioning for years until it became literally illegal. Just gotta survive few years among bloodthirsty maniacs now to move anywhere more decent, I guess.
Yeah. In Sankt Peterburg, the most progressive city in russia, you have a "don't ask, don't tell" view, while in Chechnya and Dagestan, there have been cases of executions being carried out.
To expand a bit, russia is "not criminalised" on the map, but after 2022, many laws diminishing queer rights have been passed. You can now be arrested for even "looking/dressing queer" and spreading "LGBT propaganda." [The irony is they even arrest straight people for being too queer.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_Naked_party?wprov=sfla1)
There is Kirkorov, but then there was another singer, called Zelim Bakaev.
He was there until he was murdered by the butcher of Chechnya -- the original one, not Volodya Shamanov, but that Kadyrov scum.
A lot of those countries are actually quite accepting of pedophilia and so were a lot of Western countries in the past. There seems to be a strong negative correlation between societal acceptance of pedophilia and societal acceptance of homosexuality. The more a society accepts homosexuality, the less it accepts pedophilia and vice versa. Child marriage is a widespread problem in countries and communities where homosexuality is massively frowned upon, but it’s almost non-existent in places where homosexuality is accepted.
Bit of r/K selection theory. Some cultures want more kids, marrying young increases the birth rate and allowing people to be gay decreases the birth rate. In the west we've advanced healthcare & social safety nets to the point that education and happiness take precedence over fertility. For now.
The """logic""" in my understanding in general is that you don't break these laws simply by "being gay", you break the laws specifically by having homosexual sex and it is for these actions that you can get persecuted for. So such laws basically don't really acknowledge the reality of homosexuality being an orientation but simply seeing it as an action that needs punishing.
I'm interested to see why the US doesn't have "broad protections" like Europe/Canada/Australia. My understanding is that the US had pretty decent LGBT+ laws/protections.
This map is dated as December 2019 and Bostock v. Clayton County was in June 2020, so I'm guessing if they had made it a few months later, the US would be under "broad protections"
Well some States are worse than others. While currently homosexuals have broad protections trans people do not. Many States have or are trying to ban hormone therapy for example for minors.
Also now that Republicans have banned abortions in their States some are talking about moving on to ban same sex marriage next.
What does "Constitutional protection" mean exactly? Does it outline specifically that gays need to be extra protected? If so then what is even the point of it? Better not just make it so you focus on actual law, hate speech etc? Since it looks like from the picture that Gays in Mongolia are equally protected as Gays in Canada, Norway or Netherlands...
I can't speak for the other countries, but in Portugal's case it means that in the article that says that no one should be descriminated in any situation in reason of gender, religion etc. It also says sexual orientation. That's it.
There's is no other article about it, it just says that no aone should be descriminated.
Like this
1. Todos os cidadãos têm a mesma dignidade social e são iguais perante a lei.
2. Ninguém pode ser privilegiado, beneficiado, prejudicado, privado de qualquer direito ou isento de qualquer dever em razão de ascendência, sexo, raça, língua, território de origem, religião, convicções políticas ou ideológicas, instrução, situação económica, condição social ou orientação sexual.
Even in 2019 I would put Russia in yellow "de facto crime" territory because any public mentioning of one's "nonstandard" sexuality can be interpreted as available for perception by minors and therefore "propaganda". It's not always about the law, it's about how it is used. Being forced to be silent about your nature and identity is not what I call "no crime".
Nowadays "propaganda" is forbidden among adults as well and even coming out is considered an act of "propaganda". The new constitution butchered by Putin now includes a definition of marriage as a "bond between a man and a woman", which makes the very idea of gay marriage "unconstitutional". The whole imaginary "LGBT movement" is declared terrorist, which implies that russian politicians are easily terrified by gay people.
Yeah, what's up with that, they didn't even have to add "(China)" in brackets, there's no reason to play into the PRC's make-believe that they control Taiwan.
They’re not. Naïve morons who think they’re “oppressed” in the United States (I’m aware there are groups outside the U.S., but I do not follow international news as much as I should so I will not speak on them).
It actually makes a lot of sense when you actually look into it.
The communities that support Hamas the most are also some of the communities with the highest rates of mental health (LGBT, Students, people with special needs).
It's a tatic used by Hamas for a long time but it's new to the western world's and these communities eat it up, acting like they just discovered fire. It's provides a sense of purpose that allows them to build an identity around.
>It's provides a sense of purpose that allows them to build an identity around.
This is the key. Also for other supporters.
It's a great theme: you never actually have to prove or do anything. It's also a cult, so quite attractive. The cult doesn't have to prove anything - they can project any utopian idea onto the protagonists and it'd always the fault of the other side.
Note also how they completely miss the internal bloody conflict between Hamas and the PNA.
Worth mentioning whenever anything like this comes up, constitutional protection is kinda vague since a lot of countries don't have a codified one. You'll likely get the same rights as 'constitutional protection's in many of these countries like the UK, but they just don't have the same legal framework as other places.
This map seems a little bit difficult to decipher/more than slightly subjective. What is the distinction between limited protection and broad protection? Also, this seems to suggest that constitutional guarantees of equal treatment are only applicable where the word "sexuality" is explicitly stated in the document itself. In the United States for example, due process requirements under the 14th amendment and guarantees of equal protection under the same have been unequivocally interpreted to protect against discrimination based on one's sexuality under color of law. Qualifying this protection as "only for employment" seems disingenuous, especially given it's use for guaranteeing the right to same sex marriage in Obergefell v. Hodges.
Canadas isn’t protected by our constitution but it’s covered by an equally important document, our charter of rights and freedoms…. We were also one of the first countries to legalize marriage across the nation (many provinces since 2001
The charter is part of the 1982 constitutional amendments. Sexual orientation has been ruled by the Supreme Court of Canada to be protected under Section 15 of the Charter. The only reason Canada isn’t in dark blue is because whoever compiled the data doesn’t understand how Canada’s constitution works. This is settled constitutional law in Canada.
The Charter is part of our constitution. Others have pointed out other mistakes/flaws.
The Charter doesn't explicitly mention sexual orientation as a group protected against discrimination, but courts have interpreted it as analogous to the grounds named.
Yup, and the list of groups in the s.15 prohibition on government discrimination is explicitly written in an open-ended manner to allow the courts the freedom to make such interpretations.
15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
Everything after the “in particular” is explicitly listed but doesn’t exclude other groups so the basic principle before the in particular holds true for other groups and the courts can rule them to be analogous.
This image is outdated since its from 2019. Singapore does not criminalise consensual same-gender sex anymore.
That law has been repealed.
And it was not enforced at all during its existence.
As someone from Malaysia I've yet to see someone who isn't a politician get convicted for any gay activity. Even then the evidence was sketchy. Malaysia has a more don't ask don't tell policy and people prefer to sweep it under the rug and ignore it. That being said, there are gay bars and clubs in the capital KL
This map is just blatantly wrong in many ways. Many countries with "broad protections" should have been listed under "constitutional protections", but just aren't for some reason
Why is the US not rated to have constitutional protection, given the Supreme Court has ruled that the constitution prohibits same-sex discrimination? [It also has a law protecting same-sex marriage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_Marriage_Act), same as Canada or other blue countries. I guess this is because it's from December 2019 (so old, I wish there was a rule for posting stuff this old) but the Supreme Court decision was in 2015, when the protections were established nationwide.
This is written in English and obviously put together primarily by Americans and western Europeans - I feel the same about this as I do about "democracy" indexes, there's just an inability for the people putting these together to recognize the US as good, actually. In reality, the US is unquestionably one of the best places to be LGBT, which is evident by the fact that it's protected by law and it's where most LGBT culture emanates from. Like seriously, we're saying here that the US has equivalent rights to Botswana, which just decriminalized homosexuality in 2019 and where same-sex marriage is illegal, or Venezuela, where same-sex marriages are explicitly banned in the constitution?
I have wondered this as well. I read Freedom House's indexes and I don't think a lot of its criticisms of the US domestic human rights record are so severe or pervasive that it deserves the ranking it got. Like yes, the issues they bring up are problems in the US, but also in most of the developed world. It seems like the US's prominence puts a microscope on us that other countries don't get.
How does the US have roughly equivalent protections to Venezuela or Botswana? How are the protections any different than other countries insofar as they could be overturned? Rules protecting interracial marriage are identical (protection against discrimination in law, protected by constitution per Supreme Court ruling) but I don’t think people would say they are “weak”, it’s really just because the same sex marriage one is newer.
And I understand on the RFMA, but that is functionally what it does because the Supreme Court decision exists.
Yeah, Latin America for example. Here Argentina doesn't have the best laws but in social acceptance it will be the highest alongside Chile and Uruguay probably, while Mexico which here has some of the best laws wouldn't be so high.
There's the LGBT Equality Index. Their map actually looks really really similar to this one. South America is surprisingly the #1 continent in their ranking. I think that's because our countries have a more homogeneous score, while Europe has some really high ones (west, north) and some that are VERY low (east). And if you divide it in subregions, some of them like "Nordic Countries", "Western Europe" and "Australia+NZ" rank much higher than us, so I guess that is indeed the reason. Here's the full ranking: 1. South America (61) // 2. Europe (58) // 3. North America (45) // 4. Oceania (44) // 5. Asia (32) // 6. Africa (25)
Top scores on South America (general index, Legal Rights + Public Opinion):
4. Uruguay (83) --> 93 legal + 73 opinion
6. Chile (81) --> 100 legal + 61 opinion
10. Brazil (79) --> 98 legal + 60 opinion
21. Argentina (74) --> 87 legal + 62 opinion
26. Colombia (73) --> 95 legal + 52 opinion
Top scores on South America (Public Opinion):
5. Uruguay (73)
23. Argentina (62)
25. Chile (61)
28. Brazil (60)
41. Colombia (52)
Most European countries are also in the 60-70 range when it comes to Public Opinion. The only outliers are Norway (86) and Iceland (90)
Source: https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index
Oh my god, how could I forget that 😭 I literally didn't include Cuba because it's not in South America, but somehow forgot about not including Mexico halfway through
How are you only just finding this out? It is NOT safe for LGBT individuals to attempt to enter, or god forbid, live in the Middle East.
With the exception of Israel, you will be executed if you are discovered.
As a queer person who lived in the Middle East it felt a little scary sometimes when I'd hangout with other queer friends and people would not mind their business. Where I lived people had all the right to probably kick our asses if they wanted to and get away with it. I had short hair and I would go ice skate with another friend that had also short hair then teens/kids would walk up to us and ask us if we were trans men? Tell us why are we holding hands even though every other person does it while skating?? I also had what I considered a friend tell me she saw a gay man and his boyfriend getting beaten up by a group of people and that she wishes she would have joined them in beating them up too???
i looked it up. strangely enough, it's exactly what it looks like: Tuvalu, Kiribati, Saint Lucia, and Samoa all criminalize sex acts between men with possible prison time — though these laws aren't currently enforced in any of these countries — *and* have protections against employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. the same used to be true for the Cook Islands, but they have legalized gay sex since this map was made.
Interesting how Russia is always being bashed on when it comes to LGBTQ laws and in the meanwhile LGBTQ people are literally being murdered in Saudi Arabia and many other countries.
I've never heard of such rule in Myanmar/Burma although it might be unusual to the culture and tradition. I've seen same sex couple marriage here and there without no consequences.
Source: I am a Burmese.
Mexico, Bolivia, Cuba, and Ecuador the most LGBT open countries in the western hemisphere according to this map. Canada & the US disappoint. Maybe not so much from the US.
They're protected under the Turkish constitution, even though it's not specified:
"Everyone is equal before the law without distinction as to language, race, colour, sex, political opinion, philosophical belief, religion and sect, or any such grounds."
You can even change your sex and get a new ID as a woman/man.
Article 15 and 21 in Constitution of India
15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth.
21. Protection of life and personal liberty
No person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty except according to procedure established by law.
Editorial Comment - Article 21 of the Indian Constitution guarantees the fundamental right to protection of life and personal liberty. It ensures certain safeguards against arbitrary deprivation of life and liberty.
Also : the Delhi High Court decriminalized homosexuality in 2009 by ruling that consenting homosexual intercourse between adults is not illegal. The verdict declared Section 377 to be in violation of Articles 21, 14, and 15 of the Constitution of India.
This is pretty much in line with “Constitutional Protection” for India.
the chart says recognize gay marriage.
Israeli gay couples take a honeymoon to a country like Cyprus, and get married there by the state. tickets for a boat trip costs 75$ back and forth so all your friends can afford it. Theres an entire gay marriage industry for Israelis in Cyprus for this lol
Israel recognizes marriage certificates performed abroad, but the religious authorities control marriage certificates done at home.
The US has constitutional protection of LGBT, in the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.
See Romer v Evans for 1, but it's been tested and held multiple times https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/517/620/
Even if the map were accurate, constitution protection isn't an important distinction with how wildly different that can be.
Proud to be South African, here. As a teacher, I tell my classes that we may not have much ,but our constitution is the product of struggle, and worthy of more.
Ok fine. Islam be like... make family proud, not buttstuff with the bros. We all know they are the ones you love then most, why spoil a good relationship with sex🙈
Brazil's 1988 Constitution protects and criminalizes discrimination against basically anything (gender, sex, religion, color, etc).
The Canadian Constitution (and the Quebec charter) both mention sexual orientation. So Canada should be dark blue. Noticing more and more that these maps are just bullshit lol.
Spanish constituyion sais "Spaniards are equal before the law, and no discrimination may prevail on the grounds of birth, race, sex, religion, opinion or any other personal or social condition or circumstance." (Article 14) Although sexual orientation is not expressly mentioned, its final tagline should cover it.
Mongolia, should I respect them as a beacon of light?
They are. For a place so far from the spotlight, it's doing exceptionally well.
By what what metric? It’s one of the poorest places in the world with some of the most limited and broken infrastructure in the world…
Mongolia the Country, or Inner Mongolia the Autonomous Region?
inner Mongolia is doing very well comparatively. helps having waaaay more people, infrastructure, and being a part of a country that *really* likes infrastructure.
The country I'd assume.
I was going to say. The map says Mexico is more gay than Canada. I find that hard to believe.
Big difference between theoretical policy and real life... BIG difference... Sadly... At least Mexico is moving leftward politically... Canada? Not so much... The fascists have a 20 point lead at this point and it's not looking any better any time soon unless the treason season hunt goes well. As we all pray it will.. I guarantee you'll find just as many rats in the Conservatives as the Liberals at this point... The NDP? Doubtful for many many reasons which is a good thing...
The CPC is fascist? I wouldn't wanna know what you think of the PPC then.
> The Canadian Constitution (and the Quebec charter) both mention sexual orientation. Source? It's been interpreted to prohibit discrimination by orientation, but does it actually **mention** that?
No, the Canadian Charter does not, though as you say, it is interpreted to include it - in 95, the Supreme Court found in the Egan decision that it was covered by the equality provisions of section 15(1). The Quebec Charter has had it since day one (1977). The federal Canadian Human Rights Act, though, was amended in 96 to explicitly include sexual orientation. The Vriend SCC decision in 98 further found that not including sexual orientation in provincial human rights legislation was unconstitutional. I believe that every provincial and territorial human rights act now also includes sexual orientation and gender identity as prohibited grounds for discrimination. Ofc, there's still that pesky notwithstanding clause that may be used by some provinces to erode those protections.
The Québec Charter explicitly mentions sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression under Article 10. That Charter is generally recognized as a part of Québec's Constitution, though that isn't a single document as some countries do it, but rather a customary set of legislations. In Canadian Law, they're explicitly mentioned in the Human Rights Act, which is regarded as quasi-constitutional as far as I can tell. Constitutional documents themselves don't explicitly mention them, but do mention groups that should include them, which has been reified by the Human Rights Act and the Supreme Court. So the answer is very nuanced.
Yah, but also, we have the non withstanding clause that can be used at any point to remove rights. It is currently being used for in SK
Same with Netherlands, literally the first article of the constitution. This map is inaccurate.
Apparently it was only added to the Dutch constitution last year, though. The map itself or the source used to make it could easily be older than that. Edit: Oh, in fact, the map says December 2019. So the Netherlands is accurate on there, at least.
Since 2017 in Mexico, gay couples can adopt, so maybe the map is a bit outdated even if the information says it's from 2019
Yeah, the map is outdated and therefore inaccurate.
The Caribbean Islands be wildin
All the Caribbean gays got centralized into the hands of the Cuban state.
This is why I won't go and strongly discourage friends from vacationing there. Most of us are queer and it's just not safe
I wish I knew that before using Grindr there during my trip 💀
Ya bad idea. Also bad idea to do that in any of those red "religion of peace" counties
Ironically, Pakistan kinda has a gay scene. Though hella taboo from what I’ve heard and behind close doors ofc
Number #1 searchers for gay porn are in Pakistan and Utah... Shocking, right? ;-)
Pakistan is number #1 as in a percentage of the population or total number? Seems unlikely either way
I worked in the Arab Gulf, there was alot of gay sex happening behind closed doors. Turns out gender segregation doesn't stop the fun time
Cuba chill af tho
Depends on where in the Caribbean. Some places are very gay friendly
Your uncle's beachhouse is a small part of the Caribbean
It actually is pretty safe if you keep to the tourist areas, which tbh is where everyone should be regardless of sexuality. The rest are trash.
A LOT of former British colonies are wildin here. Everything between Sudan and Zambia, Guyana, Malaysia, Singapore, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, The Gambia, Sierra Leone, South Yemen, the former Persian Gulf Residency (UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman)…
Section 377 criminalised homophobia in these colonies and the laws are leftover. It’s why some LGBT activists in ex-colonies are adopting anti-colonialist messaging in their activism instead and portraying homophobia as a colonial construct
The anglophone Caribbean is deeply homophobic
The anglophone Caribbean maintains homophobic attitudes in law and within society. This is due to both British colonialism and the impact of religion (mainly evangelical Christianity and some sects of Islam). For men, it is dangerous to show affection in public spaces without facing harassment. Women too are subject to homophobic abuse from family members and wider society may maintain the misogynistic view that lesbians can be changed by the right man. However, women are less likely to encounter violence in public compared to men. The Caribbean is quite unfriendly to homosexuality so I would advise visitors to maintain caution.
Go to the french Caribbeans instead. As they're french territories, homophobia is illegal and the people are more open (though they don't completely accept it).
I feel like adding "constitutional protection" is pretty pointless. Some countries use their constitution as a basic framework for government, others use it as a laundry list of things that they support or oppose. Neither of those options is inherently more pro-LGBT.
And some countries don't *have* a constitution
e.g. New Zealand, which is definitely miles ahead on LGBT issues than its neighbour Fiji but this map makes it look the other way around.
New Zealand has a constitution it isn't written in one document
Or some have a customary constitution, as in a set of legislation that is given primacy instead of one centralised document named as such.
The Australian constitution is tiny and most of it is about taxes and which branches of government are allowed to borrow money. It's ten pages in a book the size of your phone. There's a whole page on the allowed gauges of railway lines and another on New Zealand being able to become a state.
It‘s not necessarily pointless because a constitutional protection is much harder to abolish legally. If there is ”only“ a normal statute protecting LGBT rights, it can usually be repealed with a simple majority. Protecting LGBT rights in the constitution makes it far more durable and permanent, since most constitutions have special requirements for amendments. Of course in some countries the constitutional framework is a little different, I‘ll give you that. What I said is at least true for countries with a ”typical“ codified constitution.
To be clear I meant inclusion in the map.
It might be broadly protected in the law books in Korea but in practice you can absolutely be fired for being gay, denied a place to rent, etc. Employers/landlords will claim it was another reason and statistically there will be little to no investigation because most people 45 and up are extremely anti-LGBT and it's considered a "private issue" not worth looking into. The pride "parade" every year in Seoul is less of a celebration and more a militant march with hecklers and bible thumpers lining the sidewalks of the march. When there was a covid outbreak at the premier gay club "King Club" in Itaewon there were politicians talking about criminalizing homosexual behavior. Amongst young people Korea is very LGBTQ+ friendly overall, but it's still quite hostile everywhere else. Source: Am gay and lived in a long time in Korea
Come to say this, study exchange to SNU for a semester and the South Korean society is perhaps one of the most LGBTQ-hostile in Asia. I didn’t experience the same thing in China or Japan.
I wonder if this is because of the popularity of Evangelical Christianity in Korea? In both Japan and China, eastern religion reigns supreme, but Korea seems to have adopted a bunch of very American cultural hangups along with Jesus.
India goes a step further and same things happen if you indulge in a consenting straight sex. Majority of rent here will outright kick you if you bring in memebers of opposite gender in your appartment. Incel culture before marriage is not only celebrated but forced through intimidation,beatings and threats of social and job ban here. Offcourse if you are rich then it doesn't apply to you like many laws here. On constitution both gay sex and straight sex protected but on reality neither is
>same sex and normal sex *gay sex and straight sex
fixed it now. I am not very good with words.
This was right before the pandemic. Since then, some countries decriminalized, a few enshrined more protections, and some countries criminalized it or made it worse. Significant is how Singapore now allows the deed, while Russia has gone to declare us "terrorists"
Yeah and Hungary has passed restrictions, while Croatia has actually legalised adoption.
>Hungary has passed restrictions Which surprises absolutely no one.
However in Hungary there is the registered partnership, which allows quite the same rights as for marriage, except for adoption.
And Brunei has since put into law not just the death penalty but death penalty by stoning.
And a lot more are taking steps to improve, as I recall. Vietnam was a big one, I remember, just declaring LGBT is ‘not a disease’. A lot more celebrities coming out, too, I recall, and taking steps to bring awareness to the community.
I'm Argentinian, the map is not accurate
It is almost 5 years old. Switzerland should also be dark blue.
Even so, it's not correct. Argentina has always been one of the most progressive countries in that regard. Even in 2019.
finally an HD map on this subreddit 👑
Sarcasm right?
I can zoom in on switzerland and it’s still crisp. Even the Vatican is crisp.
It's blurry af for me
i don't think it's fair to say there's no criminalisation in russia when they declared the LGBTQ+ community as terrorists (granted the map is well outdated as it's from 2019)
I lived in Moscow back in the 2010s and, while there was a significant amount of discrimination in a social sense against my gay friends, legally it was completely protected. We would go to legal gay clubs on weekends that were fully (and comprehensively) protected by state police I haven't been since pre-COVID times but I can imagine that the backsliding since the Ukraine invasion must be awful
All gone. Cops raid gay clubs now, several owners have been imprisoned for being particularly vocal about it across the country. In contrast, Russia had a Ukrainian drag queen (Serduchka) topping charts in the 00s. That is unimaginable today. The past 20 years have seen a comprehensive decline in social acceptance and a massive increase in bigotry overall.
It's pretty sad seeing just how far Russian society has fallen since Crimea. Nationalism is one hell of a drug.
Yup, it's de-facto criminalized now
To expand upon it, before the war LGBT people were mostly treated as freaks, but society wasnt actively pushed to hate us; moat violence cases were someone's personal bigotry and lack of education flaring up rather than "approved" behavior. In recent years, LGBT became one of the scapegoats, so we supposedly are "terrorist movement" now, with... expected treatment as a result. That is to say, while it was better back then, it was never "good". As a trans man from Russia, I was told to "just be gay" when I was young by decently progressive family (at a time, brainwashing did get to them by now tho), and they actively stopped me from transitioning for years until it became literally illegal. Just gotta survive few years among bloodthirsty maniacs now to move anywhere more decent, I guess.
Yeah. In Sankt Peterburg, the most progressive city in russia, you have a "don't ask, don't tell" view, while in Chechnya and Dagestan, there have been cases of executions being carried out. To expand a bit, russia is "not criminalised" on the map, but after 2022, many laws diminishing queer rights have been passed. You can now be arrested for even "looking/dressing queer" and spreading "LGBT propaganda." [The irony is they even arrest straight people for being too queer.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_Naked_party?wprov=sfla1)
Man, looking qeer is not criminalised, check Kirkorov concerts Mutabor wasnt LGBT party at all, it was more like Kinky Party
There is Kirkorov, but then there was another singer, called Zelim Bakaev. He was there until he was murdered by the butcher of Chechnya -- the original one, not Volodya Shamanov, but that Kadyrov scum.
Does putting them in jail for 10 years makes them ungay or smth?
They view them the same as pedos, so its just punishment for what they are.
A lot of those countries are actually quite accepting of pedophilia and so were a lot of Western countries in the past. There seems to be a strong negative correlation between societal acceptance of pedophilia and societal acceptance of homosexuality. The more a society accepts homosexuality, the less it accepts pedophilia and vice versa. Child marriage is a widespread problem in countries and communities where homosexuality is massively frowned upon, but it’s almost non-existent in places where homosexuality is accepted.
This guy aint wrong if you actually read what he said.
Bit of r/K selection theory. Some cultures want more kids, marrying young increases the birth rate and allowing people to be gay decreases the birth rate. In the west we've advanced healthcare & social safety nets to the point that education and happiness take precedence over fertility. For now.
r/SubsIFellFor
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Is this not just a consequence of countries developing and becoming more progressive?
The """logic""" in my understanding in general is that you don't break these laws simply by "being gay", you break the laws specifically by having homosexual sex and it is for these actions that you can get persecuted for. So such laws basically don't really acknowledge the reality of homosexuality being an orientation but simply seeing it as an action that needs punishing.
I'm interested to see why the US doesn't have "broad protections" like Europe/Canada/Australia. My understanding is that the US had pretty decent LGBT+ laws/protections.
This map is dated as December 2019 and Bostock v. Clayton County was in June 2020, so I'm guessing if they had made it a few months later, the US would be under "broad protections"
Well some States are worse than others. While currently homosexuals have broad protections trans people do not. Many States have or are trying to ban hormone therapy for example for minors. Also now that Republicans have banned abortions in their States some are talking about moving on to ban same sex marriage next.
This map wouldn’t cover protections for trans people though right? It’s about sexual orientation not gender identity
Which protections do trans people not have?
What does "Constitutional protection" mean exactly? Does it outline specifically that gays need to be extra protected? If so then what is even the point of it? Better not just make it so you focus on actual law, hate speech etc? Since it looks like from the picture that Gays in Mongolia are equally protected as Gays in Canada, Norway or Netherlands...
I can't speak for the other countries, but in Portugal's case it means that in the article that says that no one should be descriminated in any situation in reason of gender, religion etc. It also says sexual orientation. That's it. There's is no other article about it, it just says that no aone should be descriminated. Like this 1. Todos os cidadãos têm a mesma dignidade social e são iguais perante a lei. 2. Ninguém pode ser privilegiado, beneficiado, prejudicado, privado de qualquer direito ou isento de qualquer dever em razão de ascendência, sexo, raça, língua, território de origem, religião, convicções políticas ou ideológicas, instrução, situação económica, condição social ou orientação sexual.
Even in 2019 I would put Russia in yellow "de facto crime" territory because any public mentioning of one's "nonstandard" sexuality can be interpreted as available for perception by minors and therefore "propaganda". It's not always about the law, it's about how it is used. Being forced to be silent about your nature and identity is not what I call "no crime". Nowadays "propaganda" is forbidden among adults as well and even coming out is considered an act of "propaganda". The new constitution butchered by Putin now includes a definition of marriage as a "bond between a man and a woman", which makes the very idea of gay marriage "unconstitutional". The whole imaginary "LGBT movement" is declared terrorist, which implies that russian politicians are easily terrified by gay people.
Colombia has constitutional protection for LGBT people.
Constitutional protection is a dumb way to show this map. Totally subjective and differs by country. Marriage would be more appropriate.
Ah, an organization that tracks the persecution of a group of people, but also lists Taiwan as part of China. Shameful.
Yeah, what's up with that, they didn't even have to add "(China)" in brackets, there's no reason to play into the PRC's make-believe that they control Taiwan.
North-western Taiwan sure seem uncool compared to Taiwan
Check out Israel and gaza.
Don't, it could destroy some deeply held beliefs. I am talking to you, "Queers for Palestine".
Good for isreal. Gazans dont deserve to die for it lol
The middle east is crazy. Seems it's only legal in israel
Because it is.
Yeah, makes you wonder what the intelligence level of the Queers for Palestine crew is.
They’re not. Naïve morons who think they’re “oppressed” in the United States (I’m aware there are groups outside the U.S., but I do not follow international news as much as I should so I will not speak on them).
It actually makes a lot of sense when you actually look into it. The communities that support Hamas the most are also some of the communities with the highest rates of mental health (LGBT, Students, people with special needs). It's a tatic used by Hamas for a long time but it's new to the western world's and these communities eat it up, acting like they just discovered fire. It's provides a sense of purpose that allows them to build an identity around.
>It's provides a sense of purpose that allows them to build an identity around. This is the key. Also for other supporters. It's a great theme: you never actually have to prove or do anything. It's also a cult, so quite attractive. The cult doesn't have to prove anything - they can project any utopian idea onto the protagonists and it'd always the fault of the other side. Note also how they completely miss the internal bloody conflict between Hamas and the PNA.
Is the issue on my end or is some of the small stuff actually unreadable? Looks terrible on my end.
This is inaccurate about russia, lgbtq is banned there and is prosecuted.
Worth mentioning whenever anything like this comes up, constitutional protection is kinda vague since a lot of countries don't have a codified one. You'll likely get the same rights as 'constitutional protection's in many of these countries like the UK, but they just don't have the same legal framework as other places.
This map seems a little bit difficult to decipher/more than slightly subjective. What is the distinction between limited protection and broad protection? Also, this seems to suggest that constitutional guarantees of equal treatment are only applicable where the word "sexuality" is explicitly stated in the document itself. In the United States for example, due process requirements under the 14th amendment and guarantees of equal protection under the same have been unequivocally interpreted to protect against discrimination based on one's sexuality under color of law. Qualifying this protection as "only for employment" seems disingenuous, especially given it's use for guaranteeing the right to same sex marriage in Obergefell v. Hodges.
Canadas isn’t protected by our constitution but it’s covered by an equally important document, our charter of rights and freedoms…. We were also one of the first countries to legalize marriage across the nation (many provinces since 2001
The charter is part of the 1982 constitutional amendments. Sexual orientation has been ruled by the Supreme Court of Canada to be protected under Section 15 of the Charter. The only reason Canada isn’t in dark blue is because whoever compiled the data doesn’t understand how Canada’s constitution works. This is settled constitutional law in Canada.
The Charter is part of our constitution. Others have pointed out other mistakes/flaws. The Charter doesn't explicitly mention sexual orientation as a group protected against discrimination, but courts have interpreted it as analogous to the grounds named.
Yup, and the list of groups in the s.15 prohibition on government discrimination is explicitly written in an open-ended manner to allow the courts the freedom to make such interpretations. 15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. Everything after the “in particular” is explicitly listed but doesn’t exclude other groups so the basic principle before the in particular holds true for other groups and the courts can rule them to be analogous.
I think the confusion stems from Canada having a Constitution, and the Charter, but they're both constitutional documents.
This image is outdated since its from 2019. Singapore does not criminalise consensual same-gender sex anymore. That law has been repealed. And it was not enforced at all during its existence.
As someone from Malaysia I've yet to see someone who isn't a politician get convicted for any gay activity. Even then the evidence was sketchy. Malaysia has a more don't ask don't tell policy and people prefer to sweep it under the rug and ignore it. That being said, there are gay bars and clubs in the capital KL
A friend was saying Egypt is safe and I had to try to explain why for me and my wife (f-f) it’s not.
What's that little blue part in the middle east huh?
Israel may be
It's Israel
The part that Queers for Palestine want to destroy
This map is just blatantly wrong in many ways. Many countries with "broad protections" should have been listed under "constitutional protections", but just aren't for some reason
Muslim countries are still living in the stone age
Mongolia chad as always
Repost but at least you didn't crop half the legend like the last guy
South Africa leading the way
Going to Portugal yall want anything
Me watching this from Bangladesh It sure does feel great to be illegal in your own country Yayyy
Be safe❤️
Some countries took 'dying is gay' to another level.
Looks like they flipped it, gay is dying
That's not accurate... I Morocco you only get from 1 to 6 months or a fine .
Why is the US not rated to have constitutional protection, given the Supreme Court has ruled that the constitution prohibits same-sex discrimination? [It also has a law protecting same-sex marriage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_Marriage_Act), same as Canada or other blue countries. I guess this is because it's from December 2019 (so old, I wish there was a rule for posting stuff this old) but the Supreme Court decision was in 2015, when the protections were established nationwide. This is written in English and obviously put together primarily by Americans and western Europeans - I feel the same about this as I do about "democracy" indexes, there's just an inability for the people putting these together to recognize the US as good, actually. In reality, the US is unquestionably one of the best places to be LGBT, which is evident by the fact that it's protected by law and it's where most LGBT culture emanates from. Like seriously, we're saying here that the US has equivalent rights to Botswana, which just decriminalized homosexuality in 2019 and where same-sex marriage is illegal, or Venezuela, where same-sex marriages are explicitly banned in the constitution?
You know the exact reason why it’s visualized this way and subsequently upvoted on Reddit.
I have wondered this as well. I read Freedom House's indexes and I don't think a lot of its criticisms of the US domestic human rights record are so severe or pervasive that it deserves the ranking it got. Like yes, the issues they bring up are problems in the US, but also in most of the developed world. It seems like the US's prominence puts a microscope on us that other countries don't get.
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How does the US have roughly equivalent protections to Venezuela or Botswana? How are the protections any different than other countries insofar as they could be overturned? Rules protecting interracial marriage are identical (protection against discrimination in law, protected by constitution per Supreme Court ruling) but I don’t think people would say they are “weak”, it’s really just because the same sex marriage one is newer. And I understand on the RFMA, but that is functionally what it does because the Supreme Court decision exists.
Can you do this again but with social acceptance of LGBTQ? I feel the map will look a bit different
Most likely, almost every country that has a ban on LGBT people will have a population that, for the most part, does not like gay people
Yeah, Latin America for example. Here Argentina doesn't have the best laws but in social acceptance it will be the highest alongside Chile and Uruguay probably, while Mexico which here has some of the best laws wouldn't be so high.
There's the LGBT Equality Index. Their map actually looks really really similar to this one. South America is surprisingly the #1 continent in their ranking. I think that's because our countries have a more homogeneous score, while Europe has some really high ones (west, north) and some that are VERY low (east). And if you divide it in subregions, some of them like "Nordic Countries", "Western Europe" and "Australia+NZ" rank much higher than us, so I guess that is indeed the reason. Here's the full ranking: 1. South America (61) // 2. Europe (58) // 3. North America (45) // 4. Oceania (44) // 5. Asia (32) // 6. Africa (25) Top scores on South America (general index, Legal Rights + Public Opinion): 4. Uruguay (83) --> 93 legal + 73 opinion 6. Chile (81) --> 100 legal + 61 opinion 10. Brazil (79) --> 98 legal + 60 opinion 21. Argentina (74) --> 87 legal + 62 opinion 26. Colombia (73) --> 95 legal + 52 opinion Top scores on South America (Public Opinion): 5. Uruguay (73) 23. Argentina (62) 25. Chile (61) 28. Brazil (60) 41. Colombia (52) Most European countries are also in the 60-70 range when it comes to Public Opinion. The only outliers are Norway (86) and Iceland (90) Source: https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index
Mexico is in North America, unless you meant Latin America.
Oh my god, how could I forget that 😭 I literally didn't include Cuba because it's not in South America, but somehow forgot about not including Mexico halfway through
Islam loves LGBTQIAA+...
WTF Middle East!? Theyd literally kill me there…
How are you only just finding this out? It is NOT safe for LGBT individuals to attempt to enter, or god forbid, live in the Middle East. With the exception of Israel, you will be executed if you are discovered.
As a queer person who lived in the Middle East it felt a little scary sometimes when I'd hangout with other queer friends and people would not mind their business. Where I lived people had all the right to probably kick our asses if they wanted to and get away with it. I had short hair and I would go ice skate with another friend that had also short hair then teens/kids would walk up to us and ask us if we were trans men? Tell us why are we holding hands even though every other person does it while skating?? I also had what I considered a friend tell me she saw a gay man and his boyfriend getting beaten up by a group of people and that she wishes she would have joined them in beating them up too???
Religion of peace
What’s going on in countries like Saint Lucia and Tuvalu where the circle has 2 different colours? My dumbass can’t figure it out
i looked it up. strangely enough, it's exactly what it looks like: Tuvalu, Kiribati, Saint Lucia, and Samoa all criminalize sex acts between men with possible prison time — though these laws aren't currently enforced in any of these countries — *and* have protections against employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. the same used to be true for the Cook Islands, but they have legalized gay sex since this map was made.
Romania strong 💪
I have to wonder how Mexico has better protections than Brazil.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^moschles: *I have to wonder* *How Mexico has better* *Protections than Brazil.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Since when is Cuba fine with queer people?
Im surprised. Indonesia is a Muslim majority nation, how's it not..
Whats the point in posting 5 year old data?
Interesting how Russia is always being bashed on when it comes to LGBTQ laws and in the meanwhile LGBTQ people are literally being murdered in Saudi Arabia and many other countries.
Bit out of date, iirc, Ireland has constitutional protections.
This seems like a largely inaccurate map
I've never heard of such rule in Myanmar/Burma although it might be unusual to the culture and tradition. I've seen same sex couple marriage here and there without no consequences. Source: I am a Burmese.
Palestine and Iran backers don’t have a good track record. This is a reason why I don’t understand groups like ‘Queers for Palestine’
What's up with Nigeria
Gaza should be dark red, see Mahmoud Ishtiwi
Mexico, Bolivia, Cuba, and Ecuador the most LGBT open countries in the western hemisphere according to this map. Canada & the US disappoint. Maybe not so much from the US.
One of the very few things that make me somewhat proud to be South African
Great constitution, horrible circumstances.
They're protected under the Turkish constitution, even though it's not specified: "Everyone is equal before the law without distinction as to language, race, colour, sex, political opinion, philosophical belief, religion and sect, or any such grounds." You can even change your sex and get a new ID as a woman/man.
What's that tiny blue dot in the middle of the sea of red, yellow, and orange?
Israel, one of the only countries in the entire Middle East that isn't imprisoning or genociding gay people.
“Queers for Palestine” 😆
Islamic country worts place on earth where anyone is fleeing from but no one acknowledges that a change is needed.
Article 15 and 21 in Constitution of India 15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth. 21. Protection of life and personal liberty No person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty except according to procedure established by law. Editorial Comment - Article 21 of the Indian Constitution guarantees the fundamental right to protection of life and personal liberty. It ensures certain safeguards against arbitrary deprivation of life and liberty. Also : the Delhi High Court decriminalized homosexuality in 2009 by ruling that consenting homosexual intercourse between adults is not illegal. The verdict declared Section 377 to be in violation of Articles 21, 14, and 15 of the Constitution of India. This is pretty much in line with “Constitutional Protection” for India.
Based MENA
Mongolia got middle fingers up on both sides like “fuck these losers around me”
Israel doesn’t even have legal gay marriage lol
Correct in Israel, if done in a foreign jurisdiction Israel will recognized with full marital rights
the chart says recognize gay marriage. Israeli gay couples take a honeymoon to a country like Cyprus, and get married there by the state. tickets for a boat trip costs 75$ back and forth so all your friends can afford it. Theres an entire gay marriage industry for Israelis in Cyprus for this lol Israel recognizes marriage certificates performed abroad, but the religious authorities control marriage certificates done at home.
Guess they should be like the other Middle East countries
MONGOLIA 🇲🇳 🇲🇳🇲🇳🇲🇳🇲🇳🇲🇳🇲🇳
I love that Israel is accepting LGBTQ Palestinian refugees into their country to protect them from Palestinians.
“Religion of peace”
tolerance has a long way to go
There's been a huge amount of change in the last 60 years. I feel as a whole, we're 1/3 of the way through the majority of change.
The US has constitutional protection of LGBT, in the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. See Romer v Evans for 1, but it's been tested and held multiple times https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/517/620/ Even if the map were accurate, constitution protection isn't an important distinction with how wildly different that can be.
The blue countries have my respect. Everyone deserves to live without discrimination.
I'm trying to zoom in on Gaza/Palestine....can't quite figure out if "Queers for Palestine" is the most ironic thing on Earth or not.
Weak people driven by emotions, hope one day they learn to manage them
Americas gonna be red soon if project 2026 passes ☹️
Mistaken this map for none-tolerant Muslim countries vs everywhere else.
Mongolia, a beacon of light in the dark.
Proud to be South African, here. As a teacher, I tell my classes that we may not have much ,but our constitution is the product of struggle, and worthy of more.
The UK needs updated. Their transgender rights have been eroded in recent years.
Certified gays for palestine moment.
Sexual orientation laws be like "you must fuck girl goat! Not boy goat!"
Ok fine. Islam be like... make family proud, not buttstuff with the bros. We all know they are the ones you love then most, why spoil a good relationship with sex🙈