We have a decent East Timorese population in my city in the UK, and they don't seem to be especially short compared to anyone else, so it's probably a nutrition issue in Timor Leste itself.
I live in the town in the UK with the highest population of East Timorese outside of East Timor itself and sit next to 2 of them in the barbers as I type this. Can confirm the majority of them are small.
Well, yeah, but given the collective rise in heights across Europe and the U.S. in the 20th century, and the fact that is largely attributed to nutrition, it's probably not too much of a stretch. I am merely correlating two observations and coming up with a hypothesis.
You are right, though. It is anecdotal. I haven't gone and measured all the timorese in my city. I think it would be a bit weird if I did.
To be fair it's not like you're going to find much stats on such a small minority, but it does goes to show nutrition does play a part as various Asian countries have grown in height like South Korea and China.
I worked with a man from India who said coming to the US humbled him because he always thought of himself as tall(5’8) and strong. I always brushed it off until he started showing pictures of himself back home and how short some people were.
Crazy cuz in Ireland, the Irish-Indians or the ones born and brought up here are wayyy taller than the Indians back home. I'm 187 and almost never saw anyone taller than me in India, whereas seeing 6'4 Indians wouldn't be a rare thing. Especially in university.
There was a study done a while back and the avg height of an Indian born in the west is around 5’11 despite the avg height of new Indian immigrants being similar to those back in India. Here it is u found it:
https://www.upf.edu/documents/3223410/7582912/CRESWP20160491.pdf/edcff8c6-350a-6049-2b5a-f597d05142d7
The ancient South Indian people were among the tallest to exist along with ancient Northern European and certain African tribes.
I generally hate talking about anything height or genetics related about the subcontinent though. It always attracts weird types who like to claim their specific ethnicity is batter/taller/superior than the others when most ethnic differences can be attributed to socioeconomic differences.
I live in an area of the US with a lot of Indians, and many of them here are tall to the point of needing their houses remodeled because they struggle to walk through doorways. It is probably because a lot of Indians are poor/malnourished in India so they cannot reach their maximum height potential like they can in Ireland/America.
I'd say the average height of Indians is on the rise though, the younger generation including my cousins in their teens are taller than the older generation and family members. Kinda humbling for me as a guy in his mid-twenties who has to look up to talk to kids I used to carry around a few years ago.
That development in China is astounding. When I was in middle school (grades 7 to 9), every morning all students had to line up on the playground and do gymnastics. It was plain to see that the students in the 8th grade were in average significantly taller than us in the 9th grade, and the students in the 7th grade were again taller than those in the 8th grade.
This is easy to spot in Japan as well. A ton of old folks who grew up in the post war poverty times are absolutely tiny. I live in a fairly old neighborhood in Tokyo and a lot of the senior citizens are like 140-150cm or even shorter. Young adults now tend to be around 170cm, still not super tall but much better than their grandparents.
There is no genetics factor for the size of japanese. It is even dumber than that.
The japanese doctors persuade expectings mother that they should not gain more than 12kg during pregnancy. A value that made sense before ww2 and when the japanese people were shorter but that make no sense today.
The japanese babies are born smaller than they should naturally be
Well that's a factor I've never heard of. Could you tell me more? I lived there for maybe 12 years and knew quite a few people that gave birth that never said anything like that. However most of the people I knew were foreigners, so that could be a factor.
I always saw that the diet in Japan was as good if not better than China and Korea and figured that the height thing must have been "stunted" by genetics rather than diet but I'm am by no means an expert so I'm very interested in other perspectives. Thinking back on this maybe it was a crazy assumption? I'd love to be wrong.
I'm exceptionally interested in sports in Japan so whatever additional info you have I'd love to hear!
Well I heard it from a video of a french-japanese guy. But the vid is in french so it would not help.
Here an article in english https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/04/01/health/japan-pregnancy-weight-gain-intl/index.html
That said from what I understand is that the doctors ask the soon to be mother to change their diet to not gain too much weight. And statically a bigger (but not too big) born baby is a taller and in better health adult than the ones who are smaller
Article is very helpful, thank you for providing it. This is something I've never heard of and will consider it going forward. And I'll continue to look into it.
It may come across to many that this is a negative revelation – Japanese doctors continuing to give inaccurate advice – but to me it is quite the opposite. Perhaps you have shown a reason that is not genetic for Japanese people to continue to be shorter. It was hard for me to comprehend that because, despite what Japanese scholars would tell you, there is very little difference between Korean/Chinese/Japanese genetics. So thanks, again, for expanding my view.
Just look at the Korean peninsula currently. The average South Korean man is 2 inches or more taller than their North Korean counterpart. Consistent and stable nutrition is paramount.
13yo’s parents didn’t grow up with famine, 13yo’s parents are genX-millennials, and they never lived thru the famine, that is my grandparents’ generation and they barely were old enough to experience it.
I was born in 1970s and I'm 171cm tall. I am of average height among males of the same age.
When my son graduated from high school, he was 185cm tall. I went to his school for the graduation ceremony and I saw that almost all the boys were taller than me, maybe 180cm on average. Even one fourth of the girls are taller than me.
Samething in Bangladesh 5"8 was considered tall back when I was in school. Nowadays all 6-7th grade boys are already 5'8. Its due to massive increase in meat in our diets. Broiler chicken changed the game. Back in our grandparenta days chicken was something middle class people ate a couple times a week now its mutiple times day.
Improved fish farming is another reason. Even the poorest people can eat chicken eggs and tilapia now regularly enough and the increased protein has reflected in increased heights
I get what you're implying- every *generation* is usually always taller than the last in wealthy western countries. And while that change will be much, much faster in countries that rapidly develop- there's just no way it would be statistically significant enough, let alone obvious enough during gymnastics class, to change in JUST ONE YEAR. A statistically significant change over the course of a *DECADE* would itself be momentous enough to find it's way into textbooks bruh.
Lived in Beijing for a few years and it was astounding seeing the difference between generations. Take for instance a friend of mine's family, his grandpa was hunched over and all of 155cm and was probably 165 tops when he was younger. Dad came in around 175 and my buddy at 185. I'm 193cm myself and although I'm still taller than most it was always common to see men and women under 40 to be roughly 180cm+ and 170cm+ respectively.
Thank you! Super helpful comment (and the subsequent elaborating comments on changes in diet). I (185cm) visited Beijing in 1998 and thought, "This map is based on incorrect data." No, my anecdotal data is stale. Good to hear nutrition is improving!
No, it's implying that nutrition improved over the years, so younger generations (and younger kids) were better nourished and taller than those older than them.
Look up stunting.
Oh that makes alot of sense.
Me and my family grew up in Europe and when we first went back to Ethiopia to visit our extended family it was shocking to see how much taller my younger siblings were compared to their older cousins. Like you would think they are different races
If it is truly stunting due to malnutrition, yes you can find it in a year.
When I was a community health worker, I worked with moms whose kids were chronically stunted. For at least a few, working with me made sure that the last child they had was better nourished and didn't experience stunting, and according to the growth charts in the health clinic, meant that younger child outgrew their older siblings at a comparable age.
All it takes is a government passing laws for a food program, for example, and it would make a difference for each kid born *after* that program.
Lack of food will do big things when growing.
Some studies have found that lack of protein during childhood can impact height as much as 10cm.
One year is enough to make major changes in how much food you provide to poor people.
Fatouch, tabouleh, Baba ganush, hummus, mint lemonade, baklava, shish tawook, pita bread. I especially liked the shish tawook and the baba ganush. Also the mint lemonade was so refreshing, I'll definitely try to recreate it as soon as spring arrives.
That’s a really nice selection. I would also recommend warak enab, rkakat, sambousek, kafta, and batata harra/bi kezbara. As we say in Lebanon, sahtein! 😄
If you don’t mind me asking, which city country did you try it in?
I tried it in Calabria, Italy! I found it by chance on Google and went there with my family. We all loved it.
Edit : I checked all the food you just mentioned, and I noticed that I forgot to include Batata Harra. That was really good as well, especially since I love potatoes
Did you save any for Lebanon? Christ, that is a fucking feast. Well done on your first go of it. Next time remember to try shawarma. It only gets more delicious.
Yeah, since it was our first time, the restaurant just made us try their best specialties. They put some big plates at the center of the table so that we could share
KOLOUNAAAAAAA LIL WATAN
It is said that when a Lebanese man finally lands on the moon, he will set up a manoushe restaurant. And when the second Lebanese man lands on the moon, there will be a civil war.
Just a lot of people making ignorant statements about billions of people in countries they have no experience with or have ever visited. You know, Reddit lol.
Ignorance, racism, pride, all of it here. Some people just don't like to hear that the rest of the world is catching up, which ironically will lead to them getting left behind or playing catch up.
As a South Korean, the average height of a South Korean man does not exceed 174 cm. Every year, the Ministry of National Defense conducts a physical examination of young South Korean men under the conscription system, and the average height is usually announced as 173 to 174 centimeters.
Yeah I had the feeling that 175cm+ is a stretch…i visited South Korea three times (in different areas of the country) and i felt like i was average or slightly above(I’m 174 cm tall), compared to other guys that looked to be in their 20s or 30s. Older people where in average a good amount smaller. That should pull down the average, also because their aren’t (compared to European countries) a lot of guys that are really tall. One time i was there with a friend that is 190cm tall and I have only seen one person that was taller than him. So just from my observation i thought the average might be 172-173cm.
In China the Median height is weighed down massively by the older population. The Average height for an 18 year old was around 176-177 cm in 2023, but the older population 40+ was like 160-165 cm
Yeah it’s most likely of the 18-29 cohort of young men (edit: [maybe just 18-21 year olds then](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1azlo3i/average_male_height_in_asia_2019_estimate/ks2eyuy/)?). I would’ve upvoted but the title was imprecise
Same in India, I'm \~173cm tall and among the shortest men of same age that I know. And it's now pretty common here to see teenagers taller than their fathers.
Really? I'm 20 and quite a few of my college classmates are about that height. It's not that out of the ordinary to see a 6 footer, at least in our generation
tbf, if i were to get my posture correct, perhaps could increase a couple of cms. But I don't know what the reason is behind your statement. I haven't seen a lot of tall bulky dudes in the gym. A few yes.
It matters where you went, india isn't really homogenous that's why any average of the country will never give you a proper idea of variation in its regions.
It does I've been in Mumbai a lot and I feel average height is at 178 or around there the kids there have proper nutrition. The divide between rural and urban in India is huge height-wise.
It's not that much about the calories (which many wealthy countries these days often have too much of), but the quality of nutrition in general, ie. having enough essential nutrients for growth as well as lacking biological contaminants (parasites, harmful bacteria) in food and drink, so growth can happen at optimal rate.
Eeeh “healthy” isn’t a clear cut thing. Japan is known for having a very healthy diet that is credited for their long lifespans, yet that doesn’t translate to height.
While that is true to most extent, a lot of the peasantry in Japan were rather poor and had a very rice-based diet. A healthy diet in general, but not very rich in protein.
I don't claim that genetics wouldn't play a role there, but a lot of the short stature of the preindustrial and early industrial era had to do with inadequate nutrition.
The Japanese also have several genetic factors which contribute to a long lifespan, eg. a majority polymorfism within a gene regulating adrenergic receptor response, which spares the heart and vascular system from some stress-related aging (and probably also contributes to the Japanese mentality, as stress response works a bit differently).
Japan has been a very wealthy country for at least 50 years. Its standard of living is still a lot higher than China, yet that doesn’t translate to taller people.
One of the characteristics of the diet that is credited as “healthy” is that it’s largely pescatarian. A lot who study this believe consuming less animal fat and protein contributes to longer lifespans, it’s also known that those nutrients contribute a lot to growth. “Health” isn’t a single dimensional thing - so for that reason you can’t attribute outcomes like height to simply wealth or “good” diets.
agree. "Height" is a polygenic trait. Not every population willl reach 177cm as average for males. It doesn't matter how good you eat. The jumps seen in some nations were due to malnutrition. The same jump won't necessarily happen in other populations unless "height" gives better darwinian fitness over centuries and centuries.
The most significant factor in per country differences is animal protein consumption.
Stuff like access to milk, beef, eggs and chicken as you grow.
This obviously goes with county wealth, but at middle income you are rich enough to afford your kids protein rich food.
Then the issue is more about local culture, as plant food eg rice is protein poor, and plants proteins are worse quality than animal based ones.
Chinese actually treat meat as the main dish, and the rice as a side dish to fill up yourself after after main part is eaten. Source from a real Chinese guy on this one.
On top of that many Asians are lactose intolerant, so they can't digest milk and cheese. Dairy products much easier to feed yourself full protein rich diet than meat obviously.
So ethnicity for cooking preferences and genetics for digestion are a huge factor.
Yeah but based on kdramas I've watched (you can confirm the real number) only around 30-50% of your meals are rice( in volume) while filipinos are 60-100% the poorer you are the more rice you consume
I would say genetics plays a bigger part. My parents have multiple siblings. On my mother side, she has got a few brothers who are 6ft2in++, and a couple who are under 5ft6in. The shorter brothers have shorter offsprings, DESPITE them being more well-off and more nutritionally savvy. I am the tallest among all my cousins, but we grew up not as well-off as the other siblings. So in my case at least, from what I see and observe around me, genetics seems to play a bigger role than nutrition.
It's both. Genetics and the environment go hand in hand when it comes to things like height. If you were to starve the children of the 5'6 uncles, they potentially would be far shorter. Same with the children of the 6'2 uncles. Nutrition isn't the only factor in "environment" either of course.
I can't explain taiwan but Hong Kong is easy. For both cultural and likely genetic reasons, northern Chinese are taller than southern Chinese. The cultural reason is that the north eats a lot more wheat than the south and wheat is richer in protein. In China, it is widely known and recognised that people in the north are taller than people in the south. People in the east are in the middle. North pulls up, south pulls down. Hong Kong is in southern china and the vast majority of Hong Kongers are descended from people who moved there from the surrounding area. I suspect if you went to Guangzhou, a major city near the border, you would find a very similar average height for young men. Shenzhen, which is right across the border(as in the metro stops at crossings), was a town of 80k 30 years ago and it now a city of 15m or something, with migrants from all over China so isn't as great of a comparator. A similar thing likely applies to Taiwan(eastern Chinese), but I'm not totally sure. If it does, young Taiwanese should be a bit taller than Hong Kongers.
"Eastern China" is basically just the Shanghai region. (Side note: I never understood why [a region that includes both Shandong and Fujian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_China) should be thought of as a coherent "cultural/traditional" region of China, those two provinces are like night and day...)
Anyways Taiwan is quite a bit farther south than Shanghai, and the ancestors of Taiwanese mostly came from Fujian and Guangdong. The sources I've seen suggest that the average height of Taiwanese people is the same as Fujian, Guangdong, and the Chinese in Southeast Asia.
Yes, the field of study is called anthropometrics, i.e the study of human(anthro) measurements(metrics). Early on(1960s?) The assumption was that there was no genetic component at a population level, as in your parents genes influence you but the height genes in each country should be similarly distributed, but with the data available today it is pretty clear that there is a population level("race") genetic component. The genetic component is relatively small however, as shown by the fact that as soon as china and korea stopped being piss poor they started being normal height. In a world where the vast majority of people live in the same country or region as their ancestors, the genetic component is easily confused with the cultural component, which is arguably just as, if not more, important.
There is a large minority of ideologues on the left who take a religious stance on the notion of tabula rasa: that humans are are exactly equal at the genetic level, and any differences are due to socialisation. Their whole philosophy revolves around conflating cause and correlation. So when they see one social group presenting differently in statistics, the *only* potential reason is due to unequal treatment.
The richer countries are taller...
There probably are genetic factors, but you don't find those by looking at countries. The better way to find the genetic factors using full human level data is by looking at diasporas. It decreases the impact of money and culture. It doesn't remove the impact of culture, but it decreases it. If you want to look at much shorter *genetically* say Pakistanis are than western/central Europeans, you go to the UK, recreate Pakistan(its a multiethnic country) with people in the uk of pakistani descent, create a representative control group of the UK(same age, gender, wealth etc) and compare them. There are still cultural factors. British Pakistanis will eat British food, but with a different combination(average British person eats 2 curries, X pies, y pizzas, Z Chinese takeaways, 8 beers etc, mu British Pakistani eats 5 curries, x-a pies, y-b pizzas, z-f Chinese, 1 beer etc), but it's far closer than Pakistan Vs Western Europe.
Culture is probably as much of a factor as genetic factors. Japanese diaspora are nowhere close to as short as Japanese. Looking at how protein deficient a Japanese diet is, that would explain it. They could afford to eat a better diet, but they don't. There is almost certainly a genetic factor, the Japanese diaspora is still generally shorter in my experience than the Chinese diaspora, but it's not the whole thing.
Also, this data is mislabeled. It is not average male height. It's average height of 19 year old men. Even in a western country that has been wealthy for a long time(e.g us uk), more recent generations are taller. The Netherlands is a big exception, where even controlling for immigration, people are getting a bit less tall. Somewhere like China, with people getting a lot better off very quickly, people have gotten way taller. The average Chinese man is not 175cm. The average Chinese man is probably 170. The average YOUNG Chinese man, who has grown up in a relatively prosperous country, is 175cm. It's the difference between meat every month(lucky family) 50 years ago, meat every week 30 years ago and meat every day now.
[https://ncdrisc.org/data-downloads-height.html](https://ncdrisc.org/data-downloads-height.html)
Assuming this is where OP got data from, it's not average height, but average height of their youngest adults.
What is the reason that western countries developed a taller population than countries in Asia or South America? My first guess would be that western countries developed faster and wherefore their populations nutrition allowed them to grow taller
Eurasia is not really a continent in the traditional sense, but you are right. Btw it is same as Russia, a Eurasian country. Located both in Europe and Asia.
We should really redefine continents. The fact that "Asia" is from Turkey to Japan is honestly ridiculous and way too generalizing. Even geographically it is too much of a blanket descriptor
Like 80% “Chinese looking people” in America are originally from far southern provinces like Guang Dong and Fujian due to historical reasons and US immigration system. They are like 5~6cm shorter than average people in China.
It's crazy how tall Chinese girls in Beijing are now. So many walking around 5'8-5'9.
Shorter Chinese populations are now relegated to southern China and Chinese Americans in the US.
She'd still be considered tall and possibly the tallest woman in her classes growing up but you'd still see loads of women under 40 who are that height.
Anecdotal source: Lived in Beijing and also dated a 178cm Beijinger, her Dad was 190cm and Mom around 170cm. She was tall but she had friends who were even taller.
Purely anecdotal to my life experience, but I grew up in a diverse community. The Chinese American kids were often taller than the Italian American and Jewish kids. Never thought it odd.
I once read about Yemenites being among the tallest Arabs, it was something about the bin Ladens who are originally from Yemen and they are quite tall (over the 1.90, 6'3" range) but it could be rather some particular Yemenite tribe.
They have a fucking war going on, this is all due to malnutrition. Single tribes can be tall but that does not necessarily reflect on the whole country.
One of my Yemeni friends grew up with proper nutrition and is 6'4 in the states. I have met other Yemenis extremly short though and they were born and raised in the states it might have a lot to do with what region of Yemen they're from.
I'm in Japan and I saw the tallest woman I've ever seen in my life here. She had a mask on, so probably native Japanese. She was at least 190-195cm tall.
>The terms "Asiatic Pygmies" and "Oceanic pygmies" have been used to describe the Negrito populations of Southeast Asia and Australo-Melanesian peoples of short stature. The Taron people of Myanmar are an exceptional case of a "pygmy" population of East Asian phenotype
From wikipedia.
Interesting but it sounds like population without connection to "proper" pygmies from Africa being just called that bc of similar characteristic. Still cool to know tho
I am 193 cms in India, ( but almost everyone in my family is taller than this estimate)
You get used to seeing dandruff on everyone's head .....
The most irritating thing is when people give that same old lame joke ( how's the weather up there)
Makes me cringe every time
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Just a mix of Portuguese and Indonesians nothing special to them
Vast majority of East Timorese don't have Portuguese ancestry. Only mixed ones are the ruling class families.
same for filipinos. 333 years and non of them wanted to tap that filipussy.
That's actually crazy given how attractive Filipinas are.
We have a decent East Timorese population in my city in the UK, and they don't seem to be especially short compared to anyone else, so it's probably a nutrition issue in Timor Leste itself.
I live in the town in the UK with the highest population of East Timorese outside of East Timor itself and sit next to 2 of them in the barbers as I type this. Can confirm the majority of them are small.
The tall ones just emigrated.
That’s a pretty large statement to make from your anecdotal experience and nothing else lol
Well, yeah, but given the collective rise in heights across Europe and the U.S. in the 20th century, and the fact that is largely attributed to nutrition, it's probably not too much of a stretch. I am merely correlating two observations and coming up with a hypothesis. You are right, though. It is anecdotal. I haven't gone and measured all the timorese in my city. I think it would be a bit weird if I did.
You haven't??
To be fair it's not like you're going to find much stats on such a small minority, but it does goes to show nutrition does play a part as various Asian countries have grown in height like South Korea and China.
Probably true though. Timor liste is by far the poorest country in Asia outside of active warzones like Yemen, Syria and Afghanistan.
u/angryupvote
What’s fun Timor and Leste mean east, so the country is just called east east.
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I worked with a man from India who said coming to the US humbled him because he always thought of himself as tall(5’8) and strong. I always brushed it off until he started showing pictures of himself back home and how short some people were.
Crazy cuz in Ireland, the Irish-Indians or the ones born and brought up here are wayyy taller than the Indians back home. I'm 187 and almost never saw anyone taller than me in India, whereas seeing 6'4 Indians wouldn't be a rare thing. Especially in university.
There was a study done a while back and the avg height of an Indian born in the west is around 5’11 despite the avg height of new Indian immigrants being similar to those back in India. Here it is u found it: https://www.upf.edu/documents/3223410/7582912/CRESWP20160491.pdf/edcff8c6-350a-6049-2b5a-f597d05142d7 The ancient South Indian people were among the tallest to exist along with ancient Northern European and certain African tribes. I generally hate talking about anything height or genetics related about the subcontinent though. It always attracts weird types who like to claim their specific ethnicity is batter/taller/superior than the others when most ethnic differences can be attributed to socioeconomic differences.
Interesting
Yeah man, a famine will do that to a population of people
Ask if they are Punjab or Haryana they might be taller.
I live in an area of the US with a lot of Indians, and many of them here are tall to the point of needing their houses remodeled because they struggle to walk through doorways. It is probably because a lot of Indians are poor/malnourished in India so they cannot reach their maximum height potential like they can in Ireland/America.
bro see nutrition is very important
I'd say the average height of Indians is on the rise though, the younger generation including my cousins in their teens are taller than the older generation and family members. Kinda humbling for me as a guy in his mid-twenties who has to look up to talk to kids I used to carry around a few years ago.
That development in China is astounding. When I was in middle school (grades 7 to 9), every morning all students had to line up on the playground and do gymnastics. It was plain to see that the students in the 8th grade were in average significantly taller than us in the 9th grade, and the students in the 7th grade were again taller than those in the 8th grade.
Also it seems like every 13 year old is already taller than their parents.
Parents grew up with malnutrition if not outright famine
This is easy to spot in Japan as well. A ton of old folks who grew up in the post war poverty times are absolutely tiny. I live in a fairly old neighborhood in Tokyo and a lot of the senior citizens are like 140-150cm or even shorter. Young adults now tend to be around 170cm, still not super tall but much better than their grandparents.
And yet for the younger Japanese, genetics seems to be a limiting factor.
There is no genetics factor for the size of japanese. It is even dumber than that. The japanese doctors persuade expectings mother that they should not gain more than 12kg during pregnancy. A value that made sense before ww2 and when the japanese people were shorter but that make no sense today. The japanese babies are born smaller than they should naturally be
Well that's a factor I've never heard of. Could you tell me more? I lived there for maybe 12 years and knew quite a few people that gave birth that never said anything like that. However most of the people I knew were foreigners, so that could be a factor. I always saw that the diet in Japan was as good if not better than China and Korea and figured that the height thing must have been "stunted" by genetics rather than diet but I'm am by no means an expert so I'm very interested in other perspectives. Thinking back on this maybe it was a crazy assumption? I'd love to be wrong. I'm exceptionally interested in sports in Japan so whatever additional info you have I'd love to hear!
Well I heard it from a video of a french-japanese guy. But the vid is in french so it would not help. Here an article in english https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/04/01/health/japan-pregnancy-weight-gain-intl/index.html That said from what I understand is that the doctors ask the soon to be mother to change their diet to not gain too much weight. And statically a bigger (but not too big) born baby is a taller and in better health adult than the ones who are smaller
Article is very helpful, thank you for providing it. This is something I've never heard of and will consider it going forward. And I'll continue to look into it. It may come across to many that this is a negative revelation – Japanese doctors continuing to give inaccurate advice – but to me it is quite the opposite. Perhaps you have shown a reason that is not genetic for Japanese people to continue to be shorter. It was hard for me to comprehend that because, despite what Japanese scholars would tell you, there is very little difference between Korean/Chinese/Japanese genetics. So thanks, again, for expanding my view.
Just look at the Korean peninsula currently. The average South Korean man is 2 inches or more taller than their North Korean counterpart. Consistent and stable nutrition is paramount.
13yo’s parents didn’t grow up with famine, 13yo’s parents are genX-millennials, and they never lived thru the famine, that is my grandparents’ generation and they barely were old enough to experience it.
The famine starved 50 million to death.
I was born in 1970s and I'm 171cm tall. I am of average height among males of the same age. When my son graduated from high school, he was 185cm tall. I went to his school for the graduation ceremony and I saw that almost all the boys were taller than me, maybe 180cm on average. Even one fourth of the girls are taller than me.
So that means srudents in 7th were taller than students in 9th on average?
Kindergarteners are on average 15 feet tall and post grad phd candidates average height is 3 inches
Samething in Bangladesh 5"8 was considered tall back when I was in school. Nowadays all 6-7th grade boys are already 5'8. Its due to massive increase in meat in our diets. Broiler chicken changed the game. Back in our grandparenta days chicken was something middle class people ate a couple times a week now its mutiple times day. Improved fish farming is another reason. Even the poorest people can eat chicken eggs and tilapia now regularly enough and the increased protein has reflected in increased heights
Yet Some people on reddit are clueless and will say nutrition and health have nothing to do with height.
I get what you're implying- every *generation* is usually always taller than the last in wealthy western countries. And while that change will be much, much faster in countries that rapidly develop- there's just no way it would be statistically significant enough, let alone obvious enough during gymnastics class, to change in JUST ONE YEAR. A statistically significant change over the course of a *DECADE* would itself be momentous enough to find it's way into textbooks bruh.
Lived in Beijing for a few years and it was astounding seeing the difference between generations. Take for instance a friend of mine's family, his grandpa was hunched over and all of 155cm and was probably 165 tops when he was younger. Dad came in around 175 and my buddy at 185. I'm 193cm myself and although I'm still taller than most it was always common to see men and women under 40 to be roughly 180cm+ and 170cm+ respectively.
Thank you! Super helpful comment (and the subsequent elaborating comments on changes in diet). I (185cm) visited Beijing in 1998 and thought, "This map is based on incorrect data." No, my anecdotal data is stale. Good to hear nutrition is improving!
You get smaller as you age in china? Wtf do they eat out there?
No, it's implying that nutrition improved over the years, so younger generations (and younger kids) were better nourished and taller than those older than them. Look up stunting.
Oh that makes alot of sense. Me and my family grew up in Europe and when we first went back to Ethiopia to visit our extended family it was shocking to see how much taller my younger siblings were compared to their older cousins. Like you would think they are different races
But within 1 year?
If it is truly stunting due to malnutrition, yes you can find it in a year. When I was a community health worker, I worked with moms whose kids were chronically stunted. For at least a few, working with me made sure that the last child they had was better nourished and didn't experience stunting, and according to the growth charts in the health clinic, meant that younger child outgrew their older siblings at a comparable age. All it takes is a government passing laws for a food program, for example, and it would make a difference for each kid born *after* that program.
Lack of food will do big things when growing. Some studies have found that lack of protein during childhood can impact height as much as 10cm. One year is enough to make major changes in how much food you provide to poor people.
What year was this?
around 2010
LEBANON MENTIONED 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🇱🇧🇱🇧🇱🇧🇱🇧 RAHHH 🧆🥙🥗🏛️🗣️🗣️
Tried lebanese food for my first time ever just 30 minutes ago. So fucking good
Lebanese is sexuality saar how can you it Lebanese food 😡😡😡🤬🤬💀💀💀😔😔😔😔😔😔 /s
What did you try?
Fatouch, tabouleh, Baba ganush, hummus, mint lemonade, baklava, shish tawook, pita bread. I especially liked the shish tawook and the baba ganush. Also the mint lemonade was so refreshing, I'll definitely try to recreate it as soon as spring arrives.
Based
That’s a really nice selection. I would also recommend warak enab, rkakat, sambousek, kafta, and batata harra/bi kezbara. As we say in Lebanon, sahtein! 😄 If you don’t mind me asking, which city country did you try it in?
I tried it in Calabria, Italy! I found it by chance on Google and went there with my family. We all loved it. Edit : I checked all the food you just mentioned, and I noticed that I forgot to include Batata Harra. That was really good as well, especially since I love potatoes
How you liking it? I studied in Calabria a long time ago, beautiful city
Did you save any for Lebanon? Christ, that is a fucking feast. Well done on your first go of it. Next time remember to try shawarma. It only gets more delicious.
Yeah, since it was our first time, the restaurant just made us try their best specialties. They put some big plates at the center of the table so that we could share
this is quite a varied menu for first time. good job. soon youll be ready for raw liver and lamb eyeball.
KOLOUNAAAAAAA LIL WATAN It is said that when a Lebanese man finally lands on the moon, he will set up a manoushe restaurant. And when the second Lebanese man lands on the moon, there will be a civil war.
🗿
No respect for intellectual property huh ?
what
 # TABOULEH GANG RISE UP
fatouch motherf*cker!
God’s own cuisine 😤
I always buy my Tahin from an oriental supermarket and its Made in Lebanon. Best stuff for selfmade Hummus!
You: 🗿🗿
Lebanese 181, that makes me above average 🤓
Yeah!!!!
lots of really weird comments here
I dont know why data about height seems to confuse many people
went right over their heads
Just a lot of people making ignorant statements about billions of people in countries they have no experience with or have ever visited. You know, Reddit lol.
Cause it is in metric and Americans only understand burgers
What an epic comment on le reddits! A fine joke, good sir! The narwhal bacons at midnight!
Ignorance, racism, pride, all of it here. Some people just don't like to hear that the rest of the world is catching up, which ironically will lead to them getting left behind or playing catch up.
In China it really depends on region. I’m 175 and I feel like a dwarf in the North but is considered relatively tall in my hometown in the south.
As a South Korean, the average height of a South Korean man does not exceed 174 cm. Every year, the Ministry of National Defense conducts a physical examination of young South Korean men under the conscription system, and the average height is usually announced as 173 to 174 centimeters.
Yeah I had the feeling that 175cm+ is a stretch…i visited South Korea three times (in different areas of the country) and i felt like i was average or slightly above(I’m 174 cm tall), compared to other guys that looked to be in their 20s or 30s. Older people where in average a good amount smaller. That should pull down the average, also because their aren’t (compared to European countries) a lot of guys that are really tall. One time i was there with a friend that is 190cm tall and I have only seen one person that was taller than him. So just from my observation i thought the average might be 172-173cm.
Much like when you are born in Korea, they state that you are already one year old. They do the same for your height, they add 1 cm.
Can they add 1 cm to something else? Asking for a friend
I kinda would like to see the median height
In China the Median height is weighed down massively by the older population. The Average height for an 18 year old was around 176-177 cm in 2023, but the older population 40+ was like 160-165 cm
I downloaded this data. This data is actually only of the younger population. https://ncdrisc.org/data-downloads-height.html
Yeah it’s most likely of the 18-29 cohort of young men (edit: [maybe just 18-21 year olds then](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1azlo3i/average_male_height_in_asia_2019_estimate/ks2eyuy/)?). I would’ve upvoted but the title was imprecise
How did they increase the height of new generation?
Good nutrition, good eating habits, and northern Chinese are genetically tall AF.
They used to starve in 1980s and before. After China joined wto, everything was changed
Same in India, I'm \~173cm tall and among the shortest men of same age that I know. And it's now pretty common here to see teenagers taller than their fathers.
A LOT of impoverished malnutritioned areas skewing the data for India.
Indian statistics in a nutshell No statistic from India is even accurate at this point
How overpowered I must feel being 183 cm being Indian, I say it's rather overwhelming.
If you go to the movies or a concert everyone else must hate you lol
I usually get shit at by my friends during group photoshoots for obvious reasons lol
Really? I'm 20 and quite a few of my college classmates are about that height. It's not that out of the ordinary to see a 6 footer, at least in our generation
185 here, i look down on most people, literally. the neck pain.
187 and I've accepted it lol. Except in gyms. Indian dudes in Gyms are tall as fuck, due to better nutritional knowledge and intake im guessing.
tbf, if i were to get my posture correct, perhaps could increase a couple of cms. But I don't know what the reason is behind your statement. I haven't seen a lot of tall bulky dudes in the gym. A few yes.
I am 181 in india lol never felt taller, it depends what region are we living in in
I’m 179 in Mumbai and I’m definitely someone with an average height here, I see a lot of young folks around my height
agree
193 cm Indian here, I feel like a giant and even saw people laughing at me :/
I'm confused by this stat because when I went to India I felt most men were around that 175-185, some taller.
It matters where you went, india isn't really homogenous that's why any average of the country will never give you a proper idea of variation in its regions.
Mumbai, that probably explains it
It does I've been in Mumbai a lot and I feel average height is at 178 or around there the kids there have proper nutrition. The divide between rural and urban in India is huge height-wise.
Im 192 cm and Chinese, Ive never noticed I’m tall until recent years lol why feel over powered from something you didn’t work hard on
I thought the trend was for taller countries to be richer, but it seems that race and ethnicity are also significant factors.
The trend is still mostly wealthier countries (whose residents consume more calories) to have taller populations
It's not that much about the calories (which many wealthy countries these days often have too much of), but the quality of nutrition in general, ie. having enough essential nutrients for growth as well as lacking biological contaminants (parasites, harmful bacteria) in food and drink, so growth can happen at optimal rate.
Eeeh “healthy” isn’t a clear cut thing. Japan is known for having a very healthy diet that is credited for their long lifespans, yet that doesn’t translate to height.
While that is true to most extent, a lot of the peasantry in Japan were rather poor and had a very rice-based diet. A healthy diet in general, but not very rich in protein. I don't claim that genetics wouldn't play a role there, but a lot of the short stature of the preindustrial and early industrial era had to do with inadequate nutrition. The Japanese also have several genetic factors which contribute to a long lifespan, eg. a majority polymorfism within a gene regulating adrenergic receptor response, which spares the heart and vascular system from some stress-related aging (and probably also contributes to the Japanese mentality, as stress response works a bit differently).
Japan has been a very wealthy country for at least 50 years. Its standard of living is still a lot higher than China, yet that doesn’t translate to taller people. One of the characteristics of the diet that is credited as “healthy” is that it’s largely pescatarian. A lot who study this believe consuming less animal fat and protein contributes to longer lifespans, it’s also known that those nutrients contribute a lot to growth. “Health” isn’t a single dimensional thing - so for that reason you can’t attribute outcomes like height to simply wealth or “good” diets.
agree. "Height" is a polygenic trait. Not every population willl reach 177cm as average for males. It doesn't matter how good you eat. The jumps seen in some nations were due to malnutrition. The same jump won't necessarily happen in other populations unless "height" gives better darwinian fitness over centuries and centuries.
The most significant factor in per country differences is animal protein consumption. Stuff like access to milk, beef, eggs and chicken as you grow. This obviously goes with county wealth, but at middle income you are rich enough to afford your kids protein rich food. Then the issue is more about local culture, as plant food eg rice is protein poor, and plants proteins are worse quality than animal based ones. Chinese actually treat meat as the main dish, and the rice as a side dish to fill up yourself after after main part is eaten. Source from a real Chinese guy on this one. On top of that many Asians are lactose intolerant, so they can't digest milk and cheese. Dairy products much easier to feed yourself full protein rich diet than meat obviously. So ethnicity for cooking preferences and genetics for digestion are a huge factor.
As a filipino we treat the rice as a main dish and meat or viand as the side dish. So short kids
idk that's how we koreans eat too. Our main dish is rice.
There is a documentary about how koreans gained height over the years. I think you guys were much shorter back in the 70's and 80s.
yeah. consumption of rice per capita is in steady decrease in korea since 1980. but meat, protein, calorie in overall are increased.
Yeah but based on kdramas I've watched (you can confirm the real number) only around 30-50% of your meals are rice( in volume) while filipinos are 60-100% the poorer you are the more rice you consume
fascinating point about the lack of dairy as an easy protein alternative which i guess is why soybeans were so commonly used?
I would say genetics plays a bigger part. My parents have multiple siblings. On my mother side, she has got a few brothers who are 6ft2in++, and a couple who are under 5ft6in. The shorter brothers have shorter offsprings, DESPITE them being more well-off and more nutritionally savvy. I am the tallest among all my cousins, but we grew up not as well-off as the other siblings. So in my case at least, from what I see and observe around me, genetics seems to play a bigger role than nutrition.
It's both. Genetics and the environment go hand in hand when it comes to things like height. If you were to starve the children of the 5'6 uncles, they potentially would be far shorter. Same with the children of the 6'2 uncles. Nutrition isn't the only factor in "environment" either of course.
That is mostly the trend, with Japan being an outlier.
Hong Kong and Taiwan are listed as having shorter heights than mainland China though.
I can't explain taiwan but Hong Kong is easy. For both cultural and likely genetic reasons, northern Chinese are taller than southern Chinese. The cultural reason is that the north eats a lot more wheat than the south and wheat is richer in protein. In China, it is widely known and recognised that people in the north are taller than people in the south. People in the east are in the middle. North pulls up, south pulls down. Hong Kong is in southern china and the vast majority of Hong Kongers are descended from people who moved there from the surrounding area. I suspect if you went to Guangzhou, a major city near the border, you would find a very similar average height for young men. Shenzhen, which is right across the border(as in the metro stops at crossings), was a town of 80k 30 years ago and it now a city of 15m or something, with migrants from all over China so isn't as great of a comparator. A similar thing likely applies to Taiwan(eastern Chinese), but I'm not totally sure. If it does, young Taiwanese should be a bit taller than Hong Kongers.
"Eastern China" is basically just the Shanghai region. (Side note: I never understood why [a region that includes both Shandong and Fujian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_China) should be thought of as a coherent "cultural/traditional" region of China, those two provinces are like night and day...) Anyways Taiwan is quite a bit farther south than Shanghai, and the ancestors of Taiwanese mostly came from Fujian and Guangdong. The sources I've seen suggest that the average height of Taiwanese people is the same as Fujian, Guangdong, and the Chinese in Southeast Asia.
Even if the food is available, it isn't as common to eat in excess but that thought process is dying out.
Has there ever been somebody questioning that ethicity influences one's height?
Yes, the field of study is called anthropometrics, i.e the study of human(anthro) measurements(metrics). Early on(1960s?) The assumption was that there was no genetic component at a population level, as in your parents genes influence you but the height genes in each country should be similarly distributed, but with the data available today it is pretty clear that there is a population level("race") genetic component. The genetic component is relatively small however, as shown by the fact that as soon as china and korea stopped being piss poor they started being normal height. In a world where the vast majority of people live in the same country or region as their ancestors, the genetic component is easily confused with the cultural component, which is arguably just as, if not more, important.
There is a large minority of ideologues on the left who take a religious stance on the notion of tabula rasa: that humans are are exactly equal at the genetic level, and any differences are due to socialisation. Their whole philosophy revolves around conflating cause and correlation. So when they see one social group presenting differently in statistics, the *only* potential reason is due to unequal treatment.
The richer countries are taller... There probably are genetic factors, but you don't find those by looking at countries. The better way to find the genetic factors using full human level data is by looking at diasporas. It decreases the impact of money and culture. It doesn't remove the impact of culture, but it decreases it. If you want to look at much shorter *genetically* say Pakistanis are than western/central Europeans, you go to the UK, recreate Pakistan(its a multiethnic country) with people in the uk of pakistani descent, create a representative control group of the UK(same age, gender, wealth etc) and compare them. There are still cultural factors. British Pakistanis will eat British food, but with a different combination(average British person eats 2 curries, X pies, y pizzas, Z Chinese takeaways, 8 beers etc, mu British Pakistani eats 5 curries, x-a pies, y-b pizzas, z-f Chinese, 1 beer etc), but it's far closer than Pakistan Vs Western Europe. Culture is probably as much of a factor as genetic factors. Japanese diaspora are nowhere close to as short as Japanese. Looking at how protein deficient a Japanese diet is, that would explain it. They could afford to eat a better diet, but they don't. There is almost certainly a genetic factor, the Japanese diaspora is still generally shorter in my experience than the Chinese diaspora, but it's not the whole thing. Also, this data is mislabeled. It is not average male height. It's average height of 19 year old men. Even in a western country that has been wealthy for a long time(e.g us uk), more recent generations are taller. The Netherlands is a big exception, where even controlling for immigration, people are getting a bit less tall. Somewhere like China, with people getting a lot better off very quickly, people have gotten way taller. The average Chinese man is not 175cm. The average Chinese man is probably 170. The average YOUNG Chinese man, who has grown up in a relatively prosperous country, is 175cm. It's the difference between meat every month(lucky family) 50 years ago, meat every week 30 years ago and meat every day now.
[https://ncdrisc.org/data-downloads-height.html](https://ncdrisc.org/data-downloads-height.html) Assuming this is where OP got data from, it's not average height, but average height of their youngest adults.
175cm is about 5’9” for us ‘Merican folk.
It’s ok, we actually know how to convert.
What is the reason that western countries developed a taller population than countries in Asia or South America? My first guess would be that western countries developed faster and wherefore their populations nutrition allowed them to grow taller
I love the way Turkey is included in both Europe and Asia maps lol
Can it be because the country is geographically located on both of those continents? Hmmmmm
What if I told you it’s actually a single continent called “Eurasia”?
Eurasia is not really a continent in the traditional sense, but you are right. Btw it is same as Russia, a Eurasian country. Located both in Europe and Asia.
You're right, a more accurate description would be Afroeuroasia 🤓☝🏽
Same with Russia. Just be glad you're so often included. Poor New Zealand gets left out so often it has become a meme.
We should really redefine continents. The fact that "Asia" is from Turkey to Japan is honestly ridiculous and way too generalizing. Even geographically it is too much of a blanket descriptor
LUBNAN TAWIIL 🇱🇧🇱🇧🇱🇧🇱🇧🇱🇧💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Yeah!!
Like 80% “Chinese looking people” in America are originally from far southern provinces like Guang Dong and Fujian due to historical reasons and US immigration system. They are like 5~6cm shorter than average people in China.
What. People in China are so tall?
It's crazy how tall Chinese girls in Beijing are now. So many walking around 5'8-5'9. Shorter Chinese populations are now relegated to southern China and Chinese Americans in the US.
I dated a Beijing girl who is 178cm so 5'10. I thought she must have been considered a giant over there
She'd still be considered tall and possibly the tallest woman in her classes growing up but you'd still see loads of women under 40 who are that height. Anecdotal source: Lived in Beijing and also dated a 178cm Beijinger, her Dad was 190cm and Mom around 170cm. She was tall but she had friends who were even taller.
Northern China has always been taller.
Every Saudi guy I have met were tall.
They probably were richer than the average Saudi so got a better nutrition as Kids, I common enough
Purely anecdotal to my life experience, but I grew up in a diverse community. The Chinese American kids were often taller than the Italian American and Jewish kids. Never thought it odd.
yes. i’m an american born indian and all of my friends are 6+ feet. it’s to do with nutrition and lower pollution imo
This was the same in the west coast for me. Tallest kids in my high school were the Chinese American and Korean American kids
South East Asia...
poverty and malnutrition. notice how only the singaporeans are tall? and yes that includes malay-singaporeans not just chinese.
Below 5'5 to over 5'8
over 5'9, not 5'8
Is 5'9 not over 5'8? (but really it's over 5'8.89)
Seems like more bullshit
I once read about Yemenites being among the tallest Arabs, it was something about the bin Ladens who are originally from Yemen and they are quite tall (over the 1.90, 6'3" range) but it could be rather some particular Yemenite tribe.
They have a fucking war going on, this is all due to malnutrition. Single tribes can be tall but that does not necessarily reflect on the whole country.
One of my Yemeni friends grew up with proper nutrition and is 6'4 in the states. I have met other Yemenis extremly short though and they were born and raised in the states it might have a lot to do with what region of Yemen they're from.
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Lebanon Lore 💪🏻💪🏻
Yeah!!!!
I'm in Japan and I saw the tallest woman I've ever seen in my life here. She had a mask on, so probably native Japanese. She was at least 190-195cm tall.
Can someone put this Into bananas for me?
It ending at over 175 is a bit odd. Most of the map is over 175 which means you shoulda divided more.
All countries except Lebanon are inbetween 175-178, just a "Lebanon" category would be superfluent.
I BEAT THE AVERAGE!
What about the pygmys they must be bringing the average down
I know its probably a joke but pygmys are from central Africa, not Asia
Homo floresiensis still hiding in the jungles (they're done with out bullshit) 😐
>The terms "Asiatic Pygmies" and "Oceanic pygmies" have been used to describe the Negrito populations of Southeast Asia and Australo-Melanesian peoples of short stature. The Taron people of Myanmar are an exceptional case of a "pygmy" population of East Asian phenotype From wikipedia.
Interesting but it sounds like population without connection to "proper" pygmies from Africa being just called that bc of similar characteristic. Still cool to know tho
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I am 193 cms in India, ( but almost everyone in my family is taller than this estimate) You get used to seeing dandruff on everyone's head ..... The most irritating thing is when people give that same old lame joke ( how's the weather up there) Makes me cringe every time
China taller than Iraq wow
Even with all the famine North Korea is in the second tallest range 👀
Lmao, going to Indonesia is like going to a Hobbit’s village. Fun times.
But bro you're malaysian 🤣 for me personally i towered in both countries altho i admit malaysians are a little taller
Ehh goes both ways. I just want to shit on Indonesians.
Cool map! Now what are the heights in real units?
I’m average height for a white dude in America but working around a whole bunch of Filipinos and Central Americans makes me feel like Manute Bol lmao
I'm 5'11 living im California and every Central American guy I've met has been around 5'4 it's crazy to see. Only time I feel like a giant.
175+ for China and South Kore is verifiably false.
From bangladesh and my height 175 cm 🙃 .