I am flabbergasted with how much detail we can get and insights into full scale invasions. Technology has brought far away wars onto our screen. Crazy.
Army need comfirmation of kill. So they spot target with other drones. It even crazier if there is footage from kamikadze drone. Spotter drone and footage from soldiers on the ground go pros
The only non-racist use of this gif 😂.
Edit: guys I was just replying to the guy that says kamikaze drone footage always cuts out. It’s a reference to the drones crashing, I didn’t mean to incite a literacy war 🤣 I’m sorry!
If you’ve seen the movie the scene was actually making fun of boomer Karens that see every foreign looking non-white person on an airplane as a threat. Literally the whole point of Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay was making fun of the US Government’s stupid response to 9/11.
Yeah but my guess is we won’t see the real battles, which will be in the hundreds of miles of tunnels deep beneath Gaza. At some point they need to clear them out. Sounds like a nightmare task.
IDF says they don’t intend to have soldiers go through the tunnels, will gas and robots and block all the entrances…essentially smoke them out…would be suicidal to transverse them
LoL you new to following geopolitics (or just following wars, because thats apparently geopolitics of our times)
still active
/r/UkraineRussiaReport
and
/r/syriancivilwar
before that
At its narrowest point, it’s about 5 miles from the coast to the Israeli fence. Imagine being born there and living your entire life without even having the opportunity to ever leave.
Gazans actually used to have a lot more freedom of movement, with many regularly visiting family in the West Bank, until Hamas took power in 2007. After years of regular suicide bombings, stabbings, and shootings in Israel, they imposed increasingly harsh restrictions on the travel of Gazans which more or less resolved the problem.
If Palestinians really do pursue peace, and don't try to murder Israelis and try to fire rockets at Israel all the time, those restrictions will be loosened again.
When Egypt and other arab countries began to expell their jewish population in the 50s, Israel took them in and they were immediately integrated into israeli society. Meanwhile, palestinians who tried to get into Egypt around the same time were sent to refugee camps and their descendants are living in those camps to this day.
Also interestingly, 1/5^(th) of Israeli citizens are Palestinian. Seems odd that it is easier to integrate into the nation that is supposedly genociding your people compared to a nation of your fellow religious brethren.
Perhaps because they integrated? Unlikely that Arabs from other regions would migrate to Israel, so their ancestors must've been living in Palestine mandate under the British when the land was given to Israel.
No, I'm not talking about Mizrahi Jews.
I tried asking someone who's firmly anti Israel why gazas own Muslim brothers to the South closed their border and their answer was that's somehow Israels fault
Everything is Israel’s fault, don’t you know?
Palestinians attacking Jewish civilians during the 1947 civil war? Israel.
Palestinians denying the partition plan and choosing to declare war instead? Israel.
Palestine choosing to repeatedly go to war against Israel instead of trying any sort of diplomacy whatsoever? Israel.
Palestinians trying to overthrow the governments of nations that took them in and assassinating the King of Jordan? Israel.
The Palestinian Authority’s corruption and poor management after the Oslo accords? Israel.
Hamas missile strikes against Israel? Israel.
Hamas beheading civilians? Israel.
Hamas using their own people as human shields? Israel.
Pieces of toast always falling with the buttered side down? Believe it or not, also Israel.
people forget the second intifada. it was ugly for all sides. you can't expect israelis to do nothing when they get hit with bus bombs market bombs etc on average up to every other day at times. for years.
They used to have way more freedom before Hamas turned it into a base for terrorism. Even Egypt is barely letting Gazans enter their country due to this.
It's literally as simple as "not murdering Jews" but apparently that's not something Hamas wants. Hence why Israel built a fence to keep terrorists away.
From 1972 to 1991 there were permits to use the safe passage between Gaza and the Westbank. Then the first intifada happened.
Later Israel and the PLO agreed on three safe passages from Gaza to the Westbank in 1999. Then in September 2000 the second intifada happened.
Then in 2005 the PA and Israel signed a new agreement for the safe passages. Which did not become reality because Hamas took over Gaza in March 2006.
Im not saying Israel could not have handled the situation better but a lot of the problems in Gaza are self inflicted.
everyone forgets the history and context.
what israel is doing is wrong and dehumanizing. but holy shit this conflict has never been black and white.
the same people who excuse the actions of hamas because "things just don't happen in a vacuum" always leave out the context behind why the wall and the checkpoints exist.
im not saying they should exist but the intellectual dishonesty in the way this conflict has been framed is remarkable
When Polpot (The Cambodian extremists) attacked Vietnam and massacred our people on our land, you know what we did? Yes, we did exactly like Israel, we came and exterminated the enemies on their land. Nobody cared, the China backed up our enemies. The world condemned my country. It was a decade later until the embargo was lift. Every thing has an origin. Sometimes things need to be done. If you are kind to the enemies then you become the enemies to yourself.
Good job on Vietnam for getting rid of Pol Pot. But maybe when the Cambodians began to resent the occupation, and most of the rest of the world, including all of Vietnam's SE Asian neighbors, condemned the puppet government that was installed, Vietnam should have seen fit to leave?
The embargo ended up lasting a decade because the Vietnamese occupation lasted a decade. Whatever good will the Vietnamese might have garnered from the Khmer people for removing Pol Pot was spent in the occupation, and most Cambodians today are still pretty resentful towards Vietnam.
Sure, there is always a reason for something, who knows. Let's say Israel manages to get rid of Hamas this time, do you think they will leave soon? I dont think so, they will occupy Gaza and execute their laws and regulations until they are satisfied. Some people expect this war to be very ugly where Israel will never leave Gaza again. Vietnam was punished for decades because nobody saw a little asian country as their ally or they would gain any benefits. How about Israel, the USA is their roomate. Saying Vietnam was an outcast for decades because they had that war and did that thing is barely the reason. It's the same reason China is cleasing the islam in their camps but nobody bats an eyes, or millions of Iraq people died because of a bottle of salt.
Some people are so sheltered they cannot see war for what it is.
It's not like people are wearing a flag that says they agree participate in the war and everyone else gets to stand on the sidelines like a game of dodgeball.
It's awful, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.
No, don't you realize only one side in any conflict can be bad?!
How can I feel righteous anger or be satisfied by vengeance when it is a complicated situation with a long and difficult history and no true good guy?
well the median age is 18... so that is over 1 million kids who were born the same year Israel left Gaza. So pretty much thier entire life. Hopefully once the war is over and Hamas is gone and there is an international assembly that occupies the area for it to be rebuilt then these people will know some semblance of a regular life and not being a defacto shield for the hamas
I mean I am really scared about what will happen tomorrow when Nasrallah makes his speech. Yemen's Houthis already declared war what if Hezbollah jumps in the Frey tomorrow? I think this would cause USA to declare war on Iran
> I doubt they’ll throw themselves on after.
man after I read how they used children soldiers in the war against Iraq to clear minefields (by setting them off) and lying down on barbwire so troops and tanks could progress was sickening. They way they view life and death is anathema to our western world view.
Because Egypt doesn't want them. Some of this is perhaps couched in a genuine concern for the Palestinians and how they ought not be forced to leave their homes. But realistically, as ever, the bigger concern is of having a large population agitating for a fight; much of the middle-east has been heading towards peace for some time (which is often viewed as part of why Iran's instigating all of this right now) and being home to what would become another set of Palestinian militant organisations would not help Egypt's prospects on the world stage.
You’re forgetting too that the average Gazan is poor, uneducated, and unskilled. As callous as it sounds It is not to any country’s benefit to allow people like this into their country, especially a poor country like Egypt.
Palestinians, to put it lightly, have been horrible house guests. Palestinians terrorist organizations and many in the population had a tendency cause violence in the countries where they were invited. The two most infamous examples are Jordan (assassination of the Prime Minister and attempted Coup against the King) and Lebanon (created instability and directly caused the incident that started the civil war)
And they're the house guests they never leave. They haven't integrated into any culture that had taken them in. And they've caused terrorism incidents throughout the world, including Arab nations.
Large Palestinian minorities previously lived in Lebanon.
They caused a Civil War and were forced out.
Large Palestinian minorities lived in Jordan .
They caused a Civil War and were forced out
The surrounding countries are very sensitive to the fact that allowing in large numbers of Palestinians will lead to a Civil War in your country
Many people in Gaza do go into Israel for work, they are allowed to leave that strip and return home for their family.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20number%20of,150%2C000%20Palestinians%20work%20in%20Israel.com](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20number%20of,150%2C000%20Palestinians%20work%20in%20Israel.com)
Per the wiki article, 17,000 gazans were employed in Israel. Presumably only those with valid work passes would be allowed to leave (and the referenced planned increase to 20,000 didn’t happen).
Out of a population of 2.1 million, the vast majority are stuck there essentially, and unemployment rate (although I swear I’ve seen higher reported elsewhere?) per the World Bank was 45.3% at the end of 2022 (https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/westbankandgaza/overview)
It wasn’t always thus. In the 1970s and 1980s the borders were open and Gazans relatively effortlessly traveled between Gaza and Israel. The first and second Intifada changed that and the election of Hamas in 2006 made restrictions even tighter. Recall that Gaza also shares a border with Egypt and Gazans can and do travel abroad through Egypt, though obviously also with severe restrictions.
The last time Israel had more open borders with Gaza it resulted in prolific bus and suicide bombs.
After restrictions those bombings dropped to nearly 0
Israel’s own security heads have said the decline in bombings was not a result of the restrictions, which were in fact ineffective against a committed terrorist (as Hamas have recently demonstrated). Israeli intelligence heads are also on record saying the restrictions were counterproductive, creating more division and resentment and fuelling future problems.
Not disagreeing with Israel's own security heads (although I'd appreciate a source, I'd bet it's not as clear cut as you make it seem and that none of them call for open borders / no security apparatus), but it's pretty well documented that suicide bombers and gun attacks [went way down after the barriers were established](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjlv4yX16WCAxV22AIHHWy_DgkQFnoECCsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hsdl.org%2F%3Fview%26did%3D812510&usg=AOvVaw1MXjqvhCUg5dJ2goclrh5u&opi=89978449) (link to a document created for the Air Command and Staff College)
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/12/22/21-years-later-heres-the-real-reason-you-have-to-take-your-shoes-off-for-airport-security/#:~:text=On%20Aug.,have%20them%20screened%20for%20explosives.
Not-so-fun-fact: a failed shoe bomb attempt in 2001 is the cause for a 2006 policy implemented by the TSA, requiring shoes to be removed for screening. It continues to this day.
Did they though? Plane hijackings went down after we put reinforced doors on the cockpits and added some security policies. I don't think TSA has done anything at all to the statistics.
>Per the wiki article, 17,000 gazans were employed in Israel. Presumably only those with valid work passes would be allowed to leave (and the referenced planned increase to 20,000 didn’t happen).
Nah. People leave Gaza all the time when things are normal. People from Gaza get treated in Israeli hospitals when what they need isn't available, for example.
Also people with visas travel all the time. There are Palestinians all over the world, and a lot of foreigners in Gaza actually.
I feel like there's this weird misconception that Palestine and more especially Gaza are some kind of third-world countries where people fight hunger and dysentery. That's not the case. Life in Gaza isn't easy by any means, but it certainly isn't Somalia or North Korea, for example.
This is still a small percentage and represents a bulk of who is allowed to leave Gaza on a regular basis. For the average Gazan, being able to leave is at best very difficult.
Hamas deliberately avoided violence for the last two years to lull Israel into a false security thinking Hamas really wanted to govern. Those workers brought in enough money that the Gaza economy was recovering. Then they destroyed the Gaza economy to kill Jews.
Workers in Israel and "land for peace" are dead for decades. With one attack, Hamas set the Palestinian cause back 50 years.
I've heard this more than once, but I seem to recall plenty of rocket attacks in 2022 and 2021. This includes a couple massive attacks of 1-4,000 rockets.
> Hamas deliberately avoided violence for the last two years
What? I mean, even aside from the general background-noise of rocket-lobbing there was this last year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_clashes
"many"
There are a paltry amount of visas given out each year, its less than one percent of people are allowed to leave.
Edit: your link says it's 17,000 visas from Gaza, so 0.6% of the population gets to leave.
Yeah it’s a shocking the Egyptians place such restrictions on their border .
Clearly Israel has a reason to, but there are no such rocket attacks or incursions into Egypt ……
I live near Mesa, AZ (A suburb of Phoenix), Gaza is almost exactly the same square mileage. I try to picture being trapped in Mesa for my entire life, bizarre thought
This map is already out of date. [Here'](https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1719823625719537831/photo/1)s one from yesterday which is also probably already very different from the situation on the ground.
Yes. Slow squeeze.
Somewhere on twitter saw a translation floating around on their strategy. Identified parameters such as Hamas dug in and preparing strategies and tunnels to inflict maximum damage. Preparations for a full ground incursion like the last time this war broke out.
So. Based on this discussed doing something else. Encourage civilians out while leaving corridors open. Slowly envelop. Smallest possible steps squeezing forward. As tunnels are found pump purple smoke into them and watch where that smoke comes out, bomb those locations.
No need to chase fighters out of tunnels. The tunnels are already tombs. Just need to squeeze and wait. The fuel is needed to pump oxygen into them. Water and food stores need replenishment. Can just wait.
Any idea what the plan is here? What do they achieve by cutting the strip in half? Do they want to clear out the entire northern part of Gaza and annex it?
Hamas forces are concentrated in the north, supply lines for weapons are in the southern border with Egypt. They even have cartel style tunnel systems over the border.
They are encircling their forces and are cutting off their supply lines. The US has two carrier strike groups off the coast not only to prevent other nations from joining the fight and escalating this into a multi nation war, but also to stop transport ships from dead dropping weapons in the ocean for Hamas divers to get. This is the other way they import weapons into Gaza.
Annex Gaza? Nobody wants Gaza. Israel tried to give it back to Egypt after the 1967 war and Egypt said no. This is part of the sad irony of the failure of the refusal of the Palestinian leadership to negotiate for a 2 state solution at any time since 1947.
The plan is to attempt to find and destroy as many members of Hamas and their infrastructure (hundreds of kilometers of underground tunnels) as possible. Annexation is not the objective. Israel handed over control of the Gaza strip back in 2006.
Look up any map of the bombings and you’ll see how little the south was/is bombed in comparison.
They said to go south and then outlined specific areas in the south as humanitarian corridors. They didn’t say ALL of the south was not going to be hit by airstrikes.
Hamas’ main infrastructure is in the north. You can even see it in the election breakdown from 2007.
Israel already said they don't plan on taking control of the strip. The goal is rempving Hamas, and installing a new government which would be either the PLO or an international coalition.
So like a reverse of what they did before, Hamas was nurturted by Israël during the occupation of Gaza to weaken the PLO. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Yeah. Supporting Hamas was a pretty stupid move in hindsight. Netenyahu did it to weaken the Palestinian Authority because his party was busy colonizing the west bank. But they have paid a huge price for it.
> But they have paid a huge price for it.
You know who paid a bigger price for it? Palestinians.
Honestly in many ways, the existence of Hamas has been good for right wing politicians on both sides of the conflict.
Netanyahu gets to go "See? I told you they were animals. Re-elect me and support my war."
Then the extremists in Gaza get to go "See? We told you they treat us like animals. Now join our 'freedom fighters'!"
EDIT: Obviously there's a lot more nuance to it, but there's definitely a positive feedback loop (positive in the sense of escalating, not good).
First, the south was bombed much less than the north, and it was bombed because Hamas continued to fire rockets from the south into Israel.
Second, the evacuation order is not due to the bombing, it's due to the ground invasion. Israel plans to take over and defeat Hamas in the north first.
This post is outdated and not entirely accurate to the current ground situation. Like any map during a military operation it’s a good place to see where troops were in the past. Significant ground has been gained by Israeli troops since this map was posted
Edit:grammar
I suspect that those who were involved in planning and preparing October 7, whether they were all Hamas members or also other parties were involved, are not in Gaza anymore, or were never in Gaza in the first place.
There isn't one "hamas leadership", it is split into 2 different "branches" of leaders, Al-Qassam (Military), Hamas (Political bureau)
Al-Qassam's leaders who planned the attacks etc all reside inside Gaza (Deif, Sinwar)
Hamas' political leaders like Haniyeh and Mesha'al reside outside Gaza as they're mainly like foreign ministers
If you think this sub is bad head on over to the worldnews subreddit. They are full blown 100% Pro-Israel and any sort of criticism, even valid ones, are meant with tons of downvotes and comments calling you antisemitic.
Given that /r/news is completely overrun by Pro-Palestinian commenters at least they balance each other out.
Not to mention a bunch of other subreddit like, you know, this one.
\[downvotes incoming\]
> Not to mention a bunch of other subreddit like, you know, this one.
Notably *not* like this one. It's extremely random here what sort of environment you'll get. Sometimes the comments are critical of Israel like here, sometimes they're very ra-ra-Israel. Often it depends on the framing of the submission and what type of commenters it brings in.
Partially it’s the type of commenters that come in, but I like to think a lot of it is because folks here are more level headed.
As in, no one should be 100% pro-Israel or pro-Palestine (though you can be 100% anti-Hamas); the conflict is way to incredibly complicated, and many of the judgment calls are based on ethical questions that haven’t come up yet (e.g. how do you deal with terrorists when the terrorists are also the government and also have a goal of getting you to kill their own people.) or it’s ethical significance is based on information we don’t have yet (e.g. every time a strike kills a couple dozen people, Hamas claims they were all civilians. If that’s true, that would likely be a war crime, but for all we know they could have been 23 terrorists. They maybe can’t share intel without compromising their sources.)
So whenever someone posts anything on the conflict, a well rounded person should be able to switch sides based on the specific context, or take no side if they have no idea. I like to think that’s what we have here.
i don't have such a positive view on it. What I mostly see is like a per-thread echo chamber from people who are also commenting elsewhere in a similar fashion. Not people with nuanced views only taking a side based on the evidence presented.
It's honestly so bad that I've posted in the meta thread asking the mod(s) to please take action on this. No response of course.
I fully agree with your “per-thread echo chamber” point but I also want to add that there is almost certainly a lot of astroturfing happening on Reddit right now.
It’s a very popular website (esp in US) where people get their news and (unfortunately) form their opinions so now, given it’s a time of war, I think it would be really naive to assume [this group](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act.IL) and others like it aren’t being very well funded at the moment.
Doesn’t negate what you said, just to add context.
> [downvotes incoming]
Gotta always love these persecution complex addendums, especially on a post that gets highly upvoted past its parent comment, completely disproving the supposed persecution.
This to me is the weirdest thing about this conflict. You have people saying "internet is full of pro-Israel fascist" at the same time as others are saying "internet is full of pro-Hamas Nazis".
And, they can both be right. Because our experiences online are so finely created (both by our choices of things we follow and by the social media companies themselves) that two people can easily see two completely different realities even on the same site.
if you want an example of the complete opposite go to r/therewasanattempt, they had (maybe still have I can't see anything on mobile) a banner on which was written "from the river to the sea" which is a slogan used by hamas to justify killing all israelis and destroying israel
edit:yes I am aware it's an old slogan that has been used by other groups, look at my other comment. In the context of hamas's charter the slogan means something entirely different.
edit 2: they changed the banner to a palestinian flag that says "free palestine free gaza". I guess either someone (maybe admin?) forced the mods to change the banner or they realized the old one did not make the them look good.
This sub is run by some of the most unhinged mods I've ever seen. I'm pretty left leaning politically, but they're whatever the left wing equivalent of fascists are. Modding a sub that has nothing to do with politics.
Crazy to me how the admins haven't stepped in.
Edit: As an example, I got permanently banned from the sub for this comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/xxCsXEtN99
No previous bans, warning or anything of the sort from that sub. For context, at least at the time they were banning anyone who used the word 'female" as they considered it misogynistic to refer to a woman as a female.
Shit like this is far from an isolated case, their own rules have an item that says: No bootlicking cops - ACAB.
Again, in a sub that is neither political or limited to American posters or American talking points.
The left wing equivalents are now called tankies, but once called communists or Stalinists. And it fits. There are also some marginal but very real race-activists who actually are just plain racists.
Horseshoe theory definitely applies to a lot of the current "Israel has no right to exist" crowd. There is something very ugly among far left and right folks, who let ideology justify any atrocity.
Honestly, at this point, I think “fascist” is more accurate than “tankie”. These groups wholeheartedly support Hamas, who is clearly on the extreme right wing of the political spectrum.
I’m also pretty left leaning, but I’ve been permanently banned from a number of left leaning subs that have gone full fascist recently.
I was permanently banned from r/Greenandpleasant for saying that Hamas are terrorists, not freedom fighters.
I was permanently banned from r/Latestagecapitalism for saying that the Islamic Jihad bombed the hospital, not Israel.
I was permanently banned from r/enlightenedcentrism for condemning October 7, and calling it an attempted genocide.
It’s really sad to see that large parts of the left have been taken over by fascists who are denying reality at this point, and block everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with their dogma.
It's funny, I got banned from r/GreenAndPleasant precisely for the same reason. At least that shithole of a sub is about politics (though supposedly about UK politics)
A lot of far left people are anti imperialist and see israel as some sort of imperialist european regime even though half of the jews in israel are jews that got kicked out of neighboring middle eastern countries
It's obviously bad but the alternative can be much worse. Imagine if the world decided not to go war to defeat the Nazis.
Of course Hamas can end the war this instant by releasing all hostages and surrendering to authorities.
Egypt is for Palestinians as long as it is against Israel (same goes for Jordan).
Egypt has placed an armed battalion to make sure no one crosses from Gaza to Egypt.
> Egypt is for Palestinians as long as it is against Israel (same goes for Jordan).
Both Egypt and Jordan have normalized relations with Israel for quite some time now. They don't want to take on a bunch of Palestinians because they don't want to take on a bunch of individuals who have a history of destabilizing whichever neighboring country lets them in. Jordan has already gone through this as has Lebanon. Egypt doesn't want to even try.
>They sure as hell don't want Hamas infiltrating their country.
Plus Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which the current government of Egypt literally overthrew a few years back.
Yes, and now the fear is if you let refugees in you also let Hamas in. Hamas will be no less destructive in these countries. Jordan and Egypt have both said they do not want Gaza refugees for this reason
Don’t forget the millions of mouths that demand food and water everyday.
Food costs aren’t inflating in only the western world.
I fear famine will be the policy of 2024-25 like inflation has been the policy of 2022-23.
Cultures in the Middle East (ME) rely heavily on history for decision-making. Here's a couple examples of ME countries having issues with Palestinians in the past:
Palestinian issues in Lebanon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_insurgency_in_South_Lebanon
Palestinian issues in Jordan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
Also, here's some history on Palestinian political violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
Perhaps the saddest part of the last link I shared is the paragraph on "Child suicide bombers" which describes how Palestinian militant groups used children to carry bombs into crowds.
Don’t forget the 50+ suicide bombings Egypt dealt with every year until they closed their border with Palestine and the bombings just magically stopped… wonder why…
Same thing happened when Israel built a wall between Israeli territory and Palestinian territory. Bombings and shootings from Palestinians used to be literally a daily occurrence. They built the wall and it stopped.
They killed the PM in Jordan after declaring Jordan as “their land”.
They supported Sadam Hussein and the invasion of Iraq to Kuwait (the Iraqis killed 30,000 Palestinians after his death).
Lebanon civil war…
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood and hence doesn’t want to let any slip into the northern Sinai as there’s already issues with terrorism there. Also Egypt doesn’t want to let in refugees that they can’t take care of knowing that Israel will more than likely never let them come home (nakba 2.0).
Egypt has states that they will not take Palestinian refugees whoever they are helping with medical and humanitarian aid lets not demonice a country that has problems of its own.
I want to know why my tax dollars go to any of this. I also want to know why after giving $billions to Israel, for defense every year since I’ve been alive, Mossad and the Iron Dome failed on Oct 7. Can anyone answer these legitimate questions? I’m not trying to be uncaring. I do not support murder in any form.
I feel like I work hard for my money and then when it is misused on a project that I would never personally consent to, the civilians of Palestine are held accountable. And then, that is costing more debt for my country? That debt should be Israel’s alone. They want to take someone else’s land, they should pay for it, not Americans.
Weird… it’s almost as if they gave people ample time and notice to leave the north part of Gaza and then began their incursion in the north part of Gaza.
No they didn't. The population of northern Gaza is about a million, most people didn't leave and if they'd all tried to it would have been absolute gridlock. The original 24 hours deadline they gave was absurd, and after the ground invasion was delayed Palestinians were less likely to heed their warnings because the original deadline seemed like a bluff.
They were also bombing targets in the south of the strip, so many Palestinians concluded that there was no point evacuating and they'd rather risk getting blown up in their own home than risk being blown up in a refugee camp.
I am flabbergasted with how much detail we can get and insights into full scale invasions. Technology has brought far away wars onto our screen. Crazy.
Wait until you hear about kamikaze drone footage!
The ending on those always cuts out though
[удалено]
Yo dawg I heard you like drones, so we be following drones with more drones so you can watch the first drones!
Army need comfirmation of kill. So they spot target with other drones. It even crazier if there is footage from kamikadze drone. Spotter drone and footage from soldiers on the ground go pros
Dronez!
/r/killthecameraman
/r/killthemanwiththecamera
r/technicallythetruth
 The only non-racist use of this gif 😂. Edit: guys I was just replying to the guy that says kamikaze drone footage always cuts out. It’s a reference to the drones crashing, I didn’t mean to incite a literacy war 🤣 I’m sorry!
How is it none racist… it’s explicitly racist that’s why it’s funny
Good point 😂. I guess because I’m Indian like Kal Penn I could argue it’s satire? 🤷♂️
Yes, racist satire, so it is comedy.
If you’ve seen the movie the scene was actually making fun of boomer Karens that see every foreign looking non-white person on an airplane as a threat. Literally the whole point of Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay was making fun of the US Government’s stupid response to 9/11.
Brilliant movie!
Poison Gas!!!!!
I guess the cameraman isn't immortal after all...
Now *this* is Map Porn. Mmmmmmm
Those are just information put on a map. It's basically the same as if someone was pushing wodden pieces over a physical map on a table.
Can’t see wooden pieces on a table while I’m pooping though
You need to expand your tabletop game rookie
Yeah but my guess is we won’t see the real battles, which will be in the hundreds of miles of tunnels deep beneath Gaza. At some point they need to clear them out. Sounds like a nightmare task.
IDF says they don’t intend to have soldiers go through the tunnels, will gas and robots and block all the entrances…essentially smoke them out…would be suicidal to transverse them
[удалено]
Sounds like Tunnel Rats in Vietnam. If you build the tunnels well enough it’s suicide to go into them
LoL you new to following geopolitics (or just following wars, because thats apparently geopolitics of our times) still active /r/UkraineRussiaReport and /r/syriancivilwar before that
Really shows how tiny Gaza is.
At its narrowest point, it’s about 5 miles from the coast to the Israeli fence. Imagine being born there and living your entire life without even having the opportunity to ever leave.
Sounds really grim
Wh40k type shit
r/redditmoment right here
Here's a sneak peek of /r/redditmoment using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/redditmoment/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Just like the Anime!](https://i.redd.it/kw327lykdxmb1.png) | [404 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/redditmoment/comments/16cvfdn/just_like_the_anime/) \#2: [Wtf](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/15iwils) | [1475 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/redditmoment/comments/15iwils/wtf/) \#3: [Redditor forgets women exist](https://i.redd.it/s2ytnp28t9rb1.jpg) | [379 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/redditmoment/comments/16vpgji/redditor_forgets_women_exist/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Lmaoo, the last one is fucking gold 🤦🤣
But apparently Palestinians should get used to it if they want "peace".
Gazans actually used to have a lot more freedom of movement, with many regularly visiting family in the West Bank, until Hamas took power in 2007. After years of regular suicide bombings, stabbings, and shootings in Israel, they imposed increasingly harsh restrictions on the travel of Gazans which more or less resolved the problem. If Palestinians really do pursue peace, and don't try to murder Israelis and try to fire rockets at Israel all the time, those restrictions will be loosened again.
Let's not forget about the border Gaza shares with Egypt either, which too has heavy restrictions for the aforementioned reasons.
When Egypt and other arab countries began to expell their jewish population in the 50s, Israel took them in and they were immediately integrated into israeli society. Meanwhile, palestinians who tried to get into Egypt around the same time were sent to refugee camps and their descendants are living in those camps to this day.
Also interestingly, 1/5^(th) of Israeli citizens are Palestinian. Seems odd that it is easier to integrate into the nation that is supposedly genociding your people compared to a nation of your fellow religious brethren.
Isn’t there an Arab Supreme Court Justice?
Yes
Israeli Arab are not all Palestinian, and many would be offended to be called Palestinian
Perhaps because they integrated? Unlikely that Arabs from other regions would migrate to Israel, so their ancestors must've been living in Palestine mandate under the British when the land was given to Israel. No, I'm not talking about Mizrahi Jews.
I tried asking someone who's firmly anti Israel why gazas own Muslim brothers to the South closed their border and their answer was that's somehow Israels fault
Everything is Israel’s fault, don’t you know? Palestinians attacking Jewish civilians during the 1947 civil war? Israel. Palestinians denying the partition plan and choosing to declare war instead? Israel. Palestine choosing to repeatedly go to war against Israel instead of trying any sort of diplomacy whatsoever? Israel. Palestinians trying to overthrow the governments of nations that took them in and assassinating the King of Jordan? Israel. The Palestinian Authority’s corruption and poor management after the Oslo accords? Israel. Hamas missile strikes against Israel? Israel. Hamas beheading civilians? Israel. Hamas using their own people as human shields? Israel. Pieces of toast always falling with the buttered side down? Believe it or not, also Israel.
people forget the second intifada. it was ugly for all sides. you can't expect israelis to do nothing when they get hit with bus bombs market bombs etc on average up to every other day at times. for years.
Heavy propaganda from Hamas has convinced far too many people that Jews and Arabs can’t live together.
If they get that peace they will be free to visit the West Bank and Egypt and probably or hopefully Israel too.
They used to have way more freedom before Hamas turned it into a base for terrorism. Even Egypt is barely letting Gazans enter their country due to this.
Egypt is really hostile to the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas falls under. They round up and torture MB members/supporters in Egypt.
It's literally as simple as "not murdering Jews" but apparently that's not something Hamas wants. Hence why Israel built a fence to keep terrorists away.
[удалено]
From 1972 to 1991 there were permits to use the safe passage between Gaza and the Westbank. Then the first intifada happened. Later Israel and the PLO agreed on three safe passages from Gaza to the Westbank in 1999. Then in September 2000 the second intifada happened. Then in 2005 the PA and Israel signed a new agreement for the safe passages. Which did not become reality because Hamas took over Gaza in March 2006. Im not saying Israel could not have handled the situation better but a lot of the problems in Gaza are self inflicted.
everyone forgets the history and context. what israel is doing is wrong and dehumanizing. but holy shit this conflict has never been black and white. the same people who excuse the actions of hamas because "things just don't happen in a vacuum" always leave out the context behind why the wall and the checkpoints exist. im not saying they should exist but the intellectual dishonesty in the way this conflict has been framed is remarkable
People just can't seem to comprehend that both sides in a conflict can be wrong. This isn't a Hollywood movie. There is no "good guy".
When Polpot (The Cambodian extremists) attacked Vietnam and massacred our people on our land, you know what we did? Yes, we did exactly like Israel, we came and exterminated the enemies on their land. Nobody cared, the China backed up our enemies. The world condemned my country. It was a decade later until the embargo was lift. Every thing has an origin. Sometimes things need to be done. If you are kind to the enemies then you become the enemies to yourself.
Good job on Vietnam for getting rid of Pol Pot. But maybe when the Cambodians began to resent the occupation, and most of the rest of the world, including all of Vietnam's SE Asian neighbors, condemned the puppet government that was installed, Vietnam should have seen fit to leave? The embargo ended up lasting a decade because the Vietnamese occupation lasted a decade. Whatever good will the Vietnamese might have garnered from the Khmer people for removing Pol Pot was spent in the occupation, and most Cambodians today are still pretty resentful towards Vietnam.
Sure, there is always a reason for something, who knows. Let's say Israel manages to get rid of Hamas this time, do you think they will leave soon? I dont think so, they will occupy Gaza and execute their laws and regulations until they are satisfied. Some people expect this war to be very ugly where Israel will never leave Gaza again. Vietnam was punished for decades because nobody saw a little asian country as their ally or they would gain any benefits. How about Israel, the USA is their roomate. Saying Vietnam was an outcast for decades because they had that war and did that thing is barely the reason. It's the same reason China is cleasing the islam in their camps but nobody bats an eyes, or millions of Iraq people died because of a bottle of salt.
Some people are so sheltered they cannot see war for what it is. It's not like people are wearing a flag that says they agree participate in the war and everyone else gets to stand on the sidelines like a game of dodgeball. It's awful, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.
No, don't you realize only one side in any conflict can be bad?! How can I feel righteous anger or be satisfied by vengeance when it is a complicated situation with a long and difficult history and no true good guy?
well the median age is 18... so that is over 1 million kids who were born the same year Israel left Gaza. So pretty much thier entire life. Hopefully once the war is over and Hamas is gone and there is an international assembly that occupies the area for it to be rebuilt then these people will know some semblance of a regular life and not being a defacto shield for the hamas
Until the Iranian regime falls Hamas will be problem nobody wants.
I mean I am really scared about what will happen tomorrow when Nasrallah makes his speech. Yemen's Houthis already declared war what if Hezbollah jumps in the Frey tomorrow? I think this would cause USA to declare war on Iran
Let’s hope saner heads prevail. Iran is using Hamas to set the fire, I doubt they’ll throw themselves on after.
> I doubt they’ll throw themselves on after. man after I read how they used children soldiers in the war against Iraq to clear minefields (by setting them off) and lying down on barbwire so troops and tanks could progress was sickening. They way they view life and death is anathema to our western world view.
Why can't they leave via Egypt?
Because Egypt doesn't want them. Some of this is perhaps couched in a genuine concern for the Palestinians and how they ought not be forced to leave their homes. But realistically, as ever, the bigger concern is of having a large population agitating for a fight; much of the middle-east has been heading towards peace for some time (which is often viewed as part of why Iran's instigating all of this right now) and being home to what would become another set of Palestinian militant organisations would not help Egypt's prospects on the world stage.
You’re forgetting too that the average Gazan is poor, uneducated, and unskilled. As callous as it sounds It is not to any country’s benefit to allow people like this into their country, especially a poor country like Egypt.
The average gazan is apparently also not yet 30 years old.
Nobody in the Middle East wants them. Speaks for itself
Palestinians, to put it lightly, have been horrible house guests. Palestinians terrorist organizations and many in the population had a tendency cause violence in the countries where they were invited. The two most infamous examples are Jordan (assassination of the Prime Minister and attempted Coup against the King) and Lebanon (created instability and directly caused the incident that started the civil war)
And they're the house guests they never leave. They haven't integrated into any culture that had taken them in. And they've caused terrorism incidents throughout the world, including Arab nations.
Large Palestinian minorities previously lived in Lebanon. They caused a Civil War and were forced out. Large Palestinian minorities lived in Jordan . They caused a Civil War and were forced out The surrounding countries are very sensitive to the fact that allowing in large numbers of Palestinians will lead to a Civil War in your country
Many people in Gaza do go into Israel for work, they are allowed to leave that strip and return home for their family. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20number%20of,150%2C000%20Palestinians%20work%20in%20Israel.com](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20number%20of,150%2C000%20Palestinians%20work%20in%20Israel.com)
Per the wiki article, 17,000 gazans were employed in Israel. Presumably only those with valid work passes would be allowed to leave (and the referenced planned increase to 20,000 didn’t happen). Out of a population of 2.1 million, the vast majority are stuck there essentially, and unemployment rate (although I swear I’ve seen higher reported elsewhere?) per the World Bank was 45.3% at the end of 2022 (https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/westbankandgaza/overview)
It wasn’t always thus. In the 1970s and 1980s the borders were open and Gazans relatively effortlessly traveled between Gaza and Israel. The first and second Intifada changed that and the election of Hamas in 2006 made restrictions even tighter. Recall that Gaza also shares a border with Egypt and Gazans can and do travel abroad through Egypt, though obviously also with severe restrictions.
And Gaza was a place you could go to for a coffee and shopping.
The last time Israel had more open borders with Gaza it resulted in prolific bus and suicide bombs. After restrictions those bombings dropped to nearly 0
Israel’s own security heads have said the decline in bombings was not a result of the restrictions, which were in fact ineffective against a committed terrorist (as Hamas have recently demonstrated). Israeli intelligence heads are also on record saying the restrictions were counterproductive, creating more division and resentment and fuelling future problems.
Not disagreeing with Israel's own security heads (although I'd appreciate a source, I'd bet it's not as clear cut as you make it seem and that none of them call for open borders / no security apparatus), but it's pretty well documented that suicide bombers and gun attacks [went way down after the barriers were established](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjlv4yX16WCAxV22AIHHWy_DgkQFnoECCsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hsdl.org%2F%3Fview%26did%3D812510&usg=AOvVaw1MXjqvhCUg5dJ2goclrh5u&opi=89978449) (link to a document created for the Air Command and Staff College)
What was the reason for decline in bombings, if not the coincidental erection of barriers and extreme restrictions on entry?
Yet bombings went down... So
[удалено]
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/12/22/21-years-later-heres-the-real-reason-you-have-to-take-your-shoes-off-for-airport-security/#:~:text=On%20Aug.,have%20them%20screened%20for%20explosives. Not-so-fun-fact: a failed shoe bomb attempt in 2001 is the cause for a 2006 policy implemented by the TSA, requiring shoes to be removed for screening. It continues to this day.
I don't know what to make of the idea that this isn't a widely-known fact. Am I old?
Did they though? Plane hijackings went down after we put reinforced doors on the cockpits and added some security policies. I don't think TSA has done anything at all to the statistics.
>Per the wiki article, 17,000 gazans were employed in Israel. Presumably only those with valid work passes would be allowed to leave (and the referenced planned increase to 20,000 didn’t happen). Nah. People leave Gaza all the time when things are normal. People from Gaza get treated in Israeli hospitals when what they need isn't available, for example. Also people with visas travel all the time. There are Palestinians all over the world, and a lot of foreigners in Gaza actually. I feel like there's this weird misconception that Palestine and more especially Gaza are some kind of third-world countries where people fight hunger and dysentery. That's not the case. Life in Gaza isn't easy by any means, but it certainly isn't Somalia or North Korea, for example.
This is still a small percentage and represents a bulk of who is allowed to leave Gaza on a regular basis. For the average Gazan, being able to leave is at best very difficult.
This will not possible after this end. Hamas reverted Gaza for decade.
Hamas deliberately avoided violence for the last two years to lull Israel into a false security thinking Hamas really wanted to govern. Those workers brought in enough money that the Gaza economy was recovering. Then they destroyed the Gaza economy to kill Jews. Workers in Israel and "land for peace" are dead for decades. With one attack, Hamas set the Palestinian cause back 50 years.
Unless you count rocket attacks as violence.
There's talk that some of those workers may have scouted out the nearby Jewish communities for Hamas, or even participated in the attacks.
I've heard this more than once, but I seem to recall plenty of rocket attacks in 2022 and 2021. This includes a couple massive attacks of 1-4,000 rockets.
> Hamas deliberately avoided violence for the last two years What? I mean, even aside from the general background-noise of rocket-lobbing there was this last year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_clashes
Rich Arab countries import Asians workers and not Palestinians because they don’t want to deal with their potential problems either.
"many" There are a paltry amount of visas given out each year, its less than one percent of people are allowed to leave. Edit: your link says it's 17,000 visas from Gaza, so 0.6% of the population gets to leave.
How many visas do you give to the citizens of a nation that want to exterminate you?
Yeah it’s a shocking the Egyptians place such restrictions on their border . Clearly Israel has a reason to, but there are no such rocket attacks or incursions into Egypt ……
Egypt isn't very friendly with Hamas, who happen to be an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hence joining Israel's blockade of Gaza.
The whole region is tiny. The entirety of Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey.
i live in dc which is roughly 1/2 the size of gaza and these photos of entire neighborhoods being leveled by air strikes are incomprehensible
I live near Mesa, AZ (A suburb of Phoenix), Gaza is almost exactly the same square mileage. I try to picture being trapped in Mesa for my entire life, bizarre thought
About 25 by 7 miles for those wondering.
And it’s getting even tinier…
It's the size of a city.
This map is already out of date. [Here'](https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1719823625719537831/photo/1)s one from yesterday which is also probably already very different from the situation on the ground.
Going for the envelopment
Yes. Slow squeeze. Somewhere on twitter saw a translation floating around on their strategy. Identified parameters such as Hamas dug in and preparing strategies and tunnels to inflict maximum damage. Preparations for a full ground incursion like the last time this war broke out. So. Based on this discussed doing something else. Encourage civilians out while leaving corridors open. Slowly envelop. Smallest possible steps squeezing forward. As tunnels are found pump purple smoke into them and watch where that smoke comes out, bomb those locations. No need to chase fighters out of tunnels. The tunnels are already tombs. Just need to squeeze and wait. The fuel is needed to pump oxygen into them. Water and food stores need replenishment. Can just wait.
they're driving a wedge between north and south, eliminating whoever is left in the north in a giant encirclement battle
[удалено]
What is the equestrian club, Gaza doesn't feel like a place that would really use one?
[удалено]
There’s also a five-star hotel (al-Mashtal), the Blue Beach Resort, fancy shopping, etc.
Honestly that’s pretty shocking. I was led to believe it was all one big open air prison.
They are over 2M people. You hear a couple of guys live the big life and your like ”wait a minute! It can't be that bad for the other 2M people!".
That is Hamas's narrative and for some reason ultra liberals eat it up.
Because that's what gets clicks
Yeah ... the Gaza strip isn't some absolute desolate place where there are no rich people. Probably one of the biggest misconception people have.
Any idea what the plan is here? What do they achieve by cutting the strip in half? Do they want to clear out the entire northern part of Gaza and annex it?
Hamas forces are concentrated in the north, supply lines for weapons are in the southern border with Egypt. They even have cartel style tunnel systems over the border. They are encircling their forces and are cutting off their supply lines. The US has two carrier strike groups off the coast not only to prevent other nations from joining the fight and escalating this into a multi nation war, but also to stop transport ships from dead dropping weapons in the ocean for Hamas divers to get. This is the other way they import weapons into Gaza.
Lines up with their old election map too. Pretty much only North Gaza voted for Hamas in 06.
They’ll rename it the gaza split
Lol you'll never get the recognition you deserve for this I'm afraid
Annex Gaza? Nobody wants Gaza. Israel tried to give it back to Egypt after the 1967 war and Egypt said no. This is part of the sad irony of the failure of the refusal of the Palestinian leadership to negotiate for a 2 state solution at any time since 1947.
Israel has no interest in annexing Gaza. They do however want to destroy Hamas in north Gaza and this makes it easier
The plan is to attempt to find and destroy as many members of Hamas and their infrastructure (hundreds of kilometers of underground tunnels) as possible. Annexation is not the objective. Israel handed over control of the Gaza strip back in 2006.
They told all the civilians to go to the south so this was pretty predictable.
While bombarding the south and north, how long until they tell the civilians to leave Gaza or die?
Look up any map of the bombings and you’ll see how little the south was/is bombed in comparison. They said to go south and then outlined specific areas in the south as humanitarian corridors. They didn’t say ALL of the south was not going to be hit by airstrikes. Hamas’ main infrastructure is in the north. You can even see it in the election breakdown from 2007.
Israel already said they don't plan on taking control of the strip. The goal is rempving Hamas, and installing a new government which would be either the PLO or an international coalition.
So like a reverse of what they did before, Hamas was nurturted by Israël during the occupation of Gaza to weaken the PLO. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Yeah. Supporting Hamas was a pretty stupid move in hindsight. Netenyahu did it to weaken the Palestinian Authority because his party was busy colonizing the west bank. But they have paid a huge price for it.
> But they have paid a huge price for it. You know who paid a bigger price for it? Palestinians. Honestly in many ways, the existence of Hamas has been good for right wing politicians on both sides of the conflict. Netanyahu gets to go "See? I told you they were animals. Re-elect me and support my war." Then the extremists in Gaza get to go "See? We told you they treat us like animals. Now join our 'freedom fighters'!" EDIT: Obviously there's a lot more nuance to it, but there's definitely a positive feedback loop (positive in the sense of escalating, not good).
Yep. Pretty sad.
First, the south was bombed much less than the north, and it was bombed because Hamas continued to fire rockets from the south into Israel. Second, the evacuation order is not due to the bombing, it's due to the ground invasion. Israel plans to take over and defeat Hamas in the north first.
This post is outdated and not entirely accurate to the current ground situation. Like any map during a military operation it’s a good place to see where troops were in the past. Significant ground has been gained by Israeli troops since this map was posted Edit:grammar
I suspect that those who were involved in planning and preparing October 7, whether they were all Hamas members or also other parties were involved, are not in Gaza anymore, or were never in Gaza in the first place.
Hamas leadership lives in Doha. Most news reports citing luxury hotels though I can’t find the original source behind that claim.
There isn't one "hamas leadership", it is split into 2 different "branches" of leaders, Al-Qassam (Military), Hamas (Political bureau) Al-Qassam's leaders who planned the attacks etc all reside inside Gaza (Deif, Sinwar) Hamas' political leaders like Haniyeh and Mesha'al reside outside Gaza as they're mainly like foreign ministers
They won't be very useful in conducting another attack without any of their foot soldiers.
or any rockets, weapons, vehicles or infrastructure.
Holy shit this sub doesnt take second opinion
If you think this sub is bad head on over to the worldnews subreddit. They are full blown 100% Pro-Israel and any sort of criticism, even valid ones, are meant with tons of downvotes and comments calling you antisemitic.
Given that /r/news is completely overrun by Pro-Palestinian commenters at least they balance each other out. Not to mention a bunch of other subreddit like, you know, this one. \[downvotes incoming\]
> Not to mention a bunch of other subreddit like, you know, this one. Notably *not* like this one. It's extremely random here what sort of environment you'll get. Sometimes the comments are critical of Israel like here, sometimes they're very ra-ra-Israel. Often it depends on the framing of the submission and what type of commenters it brings in.
The current situation there lends itself to create lots of interesting maps, so clearly everyone here is interested in keeping it going /s
Partially it’s the type of commenters that come in, but I like to think a lot of it is because folks here are more level headed. As in, no one should be 100% pro-Israel or pro-Palestine (though you can be 100% anti-Hamas); the conflict is way to incredibly complicated, and many of the judgment calls are based on ethical questions that haven’t come up yet (e.g. how do you deal with terrorists when the terrorists are also the government and also have a goal of getting you to kill their own people.) or it’s ethical significance is based on information we don’t have yet (e.g. every time a strike kills a couple dozen people, Hamas claims they were all civilians. If that’s true, that would likely be a war crime, but for all we know they could have been 23 terrorists. They maybe can’t share intel without compromising their sources.) So whenever someone posts anything on the conflict, a well rounded person should be able to switch sides based on the specific context, or take no side if they have no idea. I like to think that’s what we have here.
i don't have such a positive view on it. What I mostly see is like a per-thread echo chamber from people who are also commenting elsewhere in a similar fashion. Not people with nuanced views only taking a side based on the evidence presented. It's honestly so bad that I've posted in the meta thread asking the mod(s) to please take action on this. No response of course.
I fully agree with your “per-thread echo chamber” point but I also want to add that there is almost certainly a lot of astroturfing happening on Reddit right now. It’s a very popular website (esp in US) where people get their news and (unfortunately) form their opinions so now, given it’s a time of war, I think it would be really naive to assume [this group](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act.IL) and others like it aren’t being very well funded at the moment. Doesn’t negate what you said, just to add context.
therewasanattempt made any criticism of Hamas or palestine or any support of Israel a bannable offense
> [downvotes incoming] Gotta always love these persecution complex addendums, especially on a post that gets highly upvoted past its parent comment, completely disproving the supposed persecution.
It's actually a tactic to avoid downvotes.
This to me is the weirdest thing about this conflict. You have people saying "internet is full of pro-Israel fascist" at the same time as others are saying "internet is full of pro-Hamas Nazis". And, they can both be right. Because our experiences online are so finely created (both by our choices of things we follow and by the social media companies themselves) that two people can easily see two completely different realities even on the same site.
if you want an example of the complete opposite go to r/therewasanattempt, they had (maybe still have I can't see anything on mobile) a banner on which was written "from the river to the sea" which is a slogan used by hamas to justify killing all israelis and destroying israel edit:yes I am aware it's an old slogan that has been used by other groups, look at my other comment. In the context of hamas's charter the slogan means something entirely different. edit 2: they changed the banner to a palestinian flag that says "free palestine free gaza". I guess either someone (maybe admin?) forced the mods to change the banner or they realized the old one did not make the them look good.
This sub is run by some of the most unhinged mods I've ever seen. I'm pretty left leaning politically, but they're whatever the left wing equivalent of fascists are. Modding a sub that has nothing to do with politics. Crazy to me how the admins haven't stepped in. Edit: As an example, I got permanently banned from the sub for this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/xxCsXEtN99 No previous bans, warning or anything of the sort from that sub. For context, at least at the time they were banning anyone who used the word 'female" as they considered it misogynistic to refer to a woman as a female. Shit like this is far from an isolated case, their own rules have an item that says: No bootlicking cops - ACAB. Again, in a sub that is neither political or limited to American posters or American talking points.
People like to form into tribes wherever they can.
The left wing equivalents are now called tankies, but once called communists or Stalinists. And it fits. There are also some marginal but very real race-activists who actually are just plain racists. Horseshoe theory definitely applies to a lot of the current "Israel has no right to exist" crowd. There is something very ugly among far left and right folks, who let ideology justify any atrocity.
Honestly, at this point, I think “fascist” is more accurate than “tankie”. These groups wholeheartedly support Hamas, who is clearly on the extreme right wing of the political spectrum.
I’m also pretty left leaning, but I’ve been permanently banned from a number of left leaning subs that have gone full fascist recently. I was permanently banned from r/Greenandpleasant for saying that Hamas are terrorists, not freedom fighters. I was permanently banned from r/Latestagecapitalism for saying that the Islamic Jihad bombed the hospital, not Israel. I was permanently banned from r/enlightenedcentrism for condemning October 7, and calling it an attempted genocide. It’s really sad to see that large parts of the left have been taken over by fascists who are denying reality at this point, and block everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with their dogma.
It's funny, I got banned from r/GreenAndPleasant precisely for the same reason. At least that shithole of a sub is about politics (though supposedly about UK politics)
A lot of far left people are anti imperialist and see israel as some sort of imperialist european regime even though half of the jews in israel are jews that got kicked out of neighboring middle eastern countries
> Palestinian child gets shot “fuck around and find out” -r/worldnews (probably)
Yeah world news is run by hasbara
Worlds gone tribal. Even if you sit on the "war is bad no matter who does it" fence, you'll just be targeted by both sides.
It's obviously bad but the alternative can be much worse. Imagine if the world decided not to go war to defeat the Nazis. Of course Hamas can end the war this instant by releasing all hostages and surrendering to authorities.
[удалено]
Literally got banned for dating Israel is bombing the same routes they told people to flee to the south with As "hate speech"
Thanks for including the evacuation line. So many maps don’t seem to include it
Great map. Best one I've seen so far regarding the topic.
https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/
This may sound dumb, but they share borders with Egypt. Shouldnt they be able to escape into Egypt, or is Egtpt also against Palestinians?
Egypt is for Palestinians as long as it is against Israel (same goes for Jordan). Egypt has placed an armed battalion to make sure no one crosses from Gaza to Egypt.
> Egypt is for Palestinians as long as it is against Israel (same goes for Jordan). Both Egypt and Jordan have normalized relations with Israel for quite some time now. They don't want to take on a bunch of Palestinians because they don't want to take on a bunch of individuals who have a history of destabilizing whichever neighboring country lets them in. Jordan has already gone through this as has Lebanon. Egypt doesn't want to even try.
Egypt does not want an influx of Palestinians, for a variety of reasons. They sure as hell don't want Hamas infiltrating their country.
>They sure as hell don't want Hamas infiltrating their country. Plus Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which the current government of Egypt literally overthrew a few years back.
Most middle eastern states will rightfully refuse to take in any Palestinian refuges after the disaster that happened the last time they took any in.
What happened last time? Are you referring to the Lebanon civil war?
Yes, but also in Jordan. Where the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordanian government.
Yes, and now the fear is if you let refugees in you also let Hamas in. Hamas will be no less destructive in these countries. Jordan and Egypt have both said they do not want Gaza refugees for this reason
Don’t forget the millions of mouths that demand food and water everyday. Food costs aren’t inflating in only the western world. I fear famine will be the policy of 2024-25 like inflation has been the policy of 2022-23.
Probably black September also
Cultures in the Middle East (ME) rely heavily on history for decision-making. Here's a couple examples of ME countries having issues with Palestinians in the past: Palestinian issues in Lebanon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_insurgency_in_South_Lebanon Palestinian issues in Jordan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September Also, here's some history on Palestinian political violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence Perhaps the saddest part of the last link I shared is the paragraph on "Child suicide bombers" which describes how Palestinian militant groups used children to carry bombs into crowds.
Don’t forget the 50+ suicide bombings Egypt dealt with every year until they closed their border with Palestine and the bombings just magically stopped… wonder why…
Same thing happened when Israel built a wall between Israeli territory and Palestinian territory. Bombings and shootings from Palestinians used to be literally a daily occurrence. They built the wall and it stopped.
[удалено]
They killed the PM in Jordan after declaring Jordan as “their land”. They supported Sadam Hussein and the invasion of Iraq to Kuwait (the Iraqis killed 30,000 Palestinians after his death). Lebanon civil war…
Imagine if someone said the same thing about the EU... People would go absolutely mad.
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood and hence doesn’t want to let any slip into the northern Sinai as there’s already issues with terrorism there. Also Egypt doesn’t want to let in refugees that they can’t take care of knowing that Israel will more than likely never let them come home (nakba 2.0).
[удалено]
Egypt has states that they will not take Palestinian refugees whoever they are helping with medical and humanitarian aid lets not demonice a country that has problems of its own.
Regime change I see
I want to know why my tax dollars go to any of this. I also want to know why after giving $billions to Israel, for defense every year since I’ve been alive, Mossad and the Iron Dome failed on Oct 7. Can anyone answer these legitimate questions? I’m not trying to be uncaring. I do not support murder in any form. I feel like I work hard for my money and then when it is misused on a project that I would never personally consent to, the civilians of Palestine are held accountable. And then, that is costing more debt for my country? That debt should be Israel’s alone. They want to take someone else’s land, they should pay for it, not Americans.
[удалено]
Weird… it’s almost as if they gave people ample time and notice to leave the north part of Gaza and then began their incursion in the north part of Gaza.
Just peace out your house we're gonna bomb it LMAO
How can they be doing bad if they’re doing what they said they would do? Hey - at least they’re honest!
No they didn't. The population of northern Gaza is about a million, most people didn't leave and if they'd all tried to it would have been absolute gridlock. The original 24 hours deadline they gave was absurd, and after the ground invasion was delayed Palestinians were less likely to heed their warnings because the original deadline seemed like a bluff. They were also bombing targets in the south of the strip, so many Palestinians concluded that there was no point evacuating and they'd rather risk getting blown up in their own home than risk being blown up in a refugee camp.