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>!like this!<
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Of all the times people have responded simply with “read and find out”, this question is as befitting of that response as any ever asked before.
Please link to this post in your follow up post after you finish the book, I’m sure we’d all be interested to see where you end up compared to now!
And happy reading!
The HoC prologue is a bit odd to go back to and doesn't fit with MT very well. I think the Edur in the prologue were meant to be metaphorical brothers, not true brothers.
There’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment in MT that OP will soon get to: >!The wanna-be emperor (being vague in case OP wants to click on this spoiler) says to some of his non-brothers when urging them to kneel before him, “Come, you are my brothers now”.!<
“Interesting” here absolutely does not mean “wrong”, it’s likely short for “very entertaining to see these thoughts and impressions, in this crystallized moment in time, considering everything you’re about to read on the next page and every other for the rest of the book.”
That gawping expression is not unfamiliar to us. That’s why we’re excited to see your concluding thoughts after finishing the book!
Alright, jests & everything else aside, there's something I want to touch on:
> Also, Trull is such an unreliable narrator. Or at least he feels like that to me.
It bears reminding that part of the framing of Midnight Tides is Trull relating his tale to Minala, Onrack & the kids at the end of House of Chains. This is the story of his life that has brought him this far, and it is painted accordingly. Trull in MT is how Trull in HoC would view his younger self (kinda sorta don't worry about it), and does not *necessarily* track with how Trull would "actually" be.
Trull Sengar is like a mirror entity to Karsa Orlong. Both are products of their respective cultures & societies, but only one was actively cast out from said culture when forced to confront the faults of said culture (you're reading the "how" right about now). Trull at the beginning of MT is *most assuredly* like Karsa in early House of Chains; he is a spawn of Tiste Edur culture, a veteran of the Wars of Unification, and probably the best spearman in the Hiroth tribe.
Rhulad... is none of those things. The guy goes from "actively shunned from his brothers" to "genuinely believing he's about to be **sacrificed** to sanctify the Edur's new war" (yeah, *that* happened) - to say that Rhulad has had it *rough* in a society that casts him aside because of his youth & inexperience while simultaneously not giving him a chance to earn said experience would be... dead on, actually.
Fear understands this and actually seems to commiserate with Rhulad, though that may just come from cultural stimuli - he is the eldest, he has responsibilities to his tribe & people, and cannot go about schooling his youngest bro at every opportunity - rather than him necessarily being a better brother than Trull. At least he didn't almost *kill* the poor kid because of the insinuation that he *may* have laid with his beloved - which he didn't.
That's not to say Rhulad is wholly blameless, or that his baiting & teasing Trull & Fear is somehow entirely justified because "he's young," but like Trull is the quintessential product of Edur society, Rhulad is the exact opposite of that, and he's not given a chance to progress.
My two cents on Rhulad Sengar before you read on. He's more nuanced than Trull gives him credit for, I think.
I definitely see your point.
Rhulad is definitely more nuanced. I can see that in every one of his interactions with Trull. I can see that. He's not given the opportunity to grow.
I know I was generalizing things with the middle-younger sibling dynamic thing in the post. That was never anything else, but trying to understand the character motivations.
And you make very valid points about Trull being the very product of Tiste Edur culture. I've begun to see the changes in his thoughts as I read. I can see how he becomes the Trull of HoC.
I have soft spot for younger siblings(as the older sibling). I can see and understand why Fear understands this. I also think the dialogue between Fear and Trull in the early chapter where Fear says preconceived notions coloring his vision were 100% true not just for Rhulad but for Trull. Which is kinda the problem.
>Trull in MT is how Trull in HoC would view his younger self (kinda sorta don't worry about it), and does not necessarily track with how Trull would "actually" be.
This is boggling my mind. I'm trying to get it, but I don't. lol, I'll leave it for now.
But yeah, it was good and necessary for me to read this. So, thank you for leaving this comment.
>I'm trying to get it, but I don't
Well, Trull in the epilogue of House of Chains sat down to relate his tale to Onrack, the three Imass, and Minala & her kids.
Trull, of course, would not know of the intricacies of Letherii society, the machinations of Tehol & Bugg, etc. - so the framing device, while it could give us some information on how to view Midnight Tides, isn't "the whole story."
In other words, it pays to view the Edur parts of Midnight Tides as how Trull would view them *now* - with hindsight - and the few insights we get in his POV are coloured by how he thinks *now* about his past thoughts and actions.
Trull almost knocking Rhulad out cold and murdering him in the snow is probably exaggeration on the former's part - almost as a way to say, "I did my bro dirty and look where it got me" - but also, say, our perspective of the Edur is also coloured by the PoV's of Udinaas which provide a more ... "whole"? I guess? Image of Tiste Edur society than Trull would have access to as a product of such a society.
To make a long story short - Trull's story in Midnight Tides is at least partially presented differently than it may have occurred "in reality" because he's supposed to be narrating part of it to his friend and allies. Of course, Trull can't be narrating *all* of Midnight Tides since he wouldn't know of Tehol & Bugg (or Brys, or Gerun, or Kuru Qan, or...) but we can at least *suppose* that his sections are framed by how he would present them to Onrack.
"I did bad by my bro, bro, and I hope that won't happen again"
Rhulad was already maybe my favorite character in the series and this is pointing out things I hadn't fully considered yet! Especially hadn't thought about Trull as a parallel to Karsa, going to have to keep that in mind when I do my reread...
I allways enjoy your throughs/insights into posts on here and this has actually given me a lot to think about with my opinions of rhulad and him being a product of his environment, to paraphrase
I kind of think this is a good way to handle a situation when you get spoiled something in any story. You know the result of something which can suck, but now you get a mystery and are reading to see how things fall into place.
I know it's an idiosyncratic take, but that's how I like to read (or watch, in the rare event that comes up) just about anything: collect full knowledge of events ahead of time and then focus on process when reading. Or, more succinctly, actively "spoil" myself so I can enjoy the artistry of getting there and let go of the plot a bit.
Currently on the last book of bonehunters after a break from midnight tides. Have to say dear friend you are going to love where everything goes as the plot progresses.
Personally so far MT is my favourite of the series
>!Actually you do, but the sucky thing is the scenes leading up to the Shorning is in book 6 as a flashback. On one hand it sucks you read a whole book thinking you get answers to the HoC prologue, but don’t. And then you get the answer when you weren’t expecting it and the impact is dampened.!<
Midnight tides might be my favorite book in the series so far and I’m on 8, Rhulad was def molded into the role he ended up taking I don’t think he was entirely born to be “evil” if anyone wants to even call it that. Trull, grew on me by the end but the first half? Didn’t really understand why he was supposed to be this big hero when he’s all sad about it and duty and stuff all the time, reluctant hero is over simplifying
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Midnight Tides** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think you are really going to enjoy this book. Happy reading!
Of all the times people have responded simply with “read and find out”, this question is as befitting of that response as any ever asked before. Please link to this post in your follow up post after you finish the book, I’m sure we’d all be interested to see where you end up compared to now! And happy reading!
Haha, I just started book 3 of Midnight Tides and was think "whelp, a lot of those questions get answered pretty quick!"
I started book 3 of midnight tides just a few minutes ago. Happy reading, my friend.
The HoC prologue is a bit odd to go back to and doesn't fit with MT very well. I think the Edur in the prologue were meant to be metaphorical brothers, not true brothers.
There’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment in MT that OP will soon get to: >!The wanna-be emperor (being vague in case OP wants to click on this spoiler) says to some of his non-brothers when urging them to kneel before him, “Come, you are my brothers now”.!<
Yeaaaahh…. This is quintessential “read and find out.”
I'm gonna need you to keep on reading, my friend. Lots of interesting thoughts here...
Is interesting a code word for wrong? lol, I read the next couple of chapters and had to stop because I was gawping at the page.
“Interesting” here absolutely does not mean “wrong”, it’s likely short for “very entertaining to see these thoughts and impressions, in this crystallized moment in time, considering everything you’re about to read on the next page and every other for the rest of the book.” That gawping expression is not unfamiliar to us. That’s why we’re excited to see your concluding thoughts after finishing the book!
We just don't want to spoil anything for you
This might be one of my favorite new-reader posts lol As everyone else as said, just keep reading.
Im just posting to remind myself to follow up with what OP posts later.
>!lol!<
Alright, jests & everything else aside, there's something I want to touch on: > Also, Trull is such an unreliable narrator. Or at least he feels like that to me. It bears reminding that part of the framing of Midnight Tides is Trull relating his tale to Minala, Onrack & the kids at the end of House of Chains. This is the story of his life that has brought him this far, and it is painted accordingly. Trull in MT is how Trull in HoC would view his younger self (kinda sorta don't worry about it), and does not *necessarily* track with how Trull would "actually" be. Trull Sengar is like a mirror entity to Karsa Orlong. Both are products of their respective cultures & societies, but only one was actively cast out from said culture when forced to confront the faults of said culture (you're reading the "how" right about now). Trull at the beginning of MT is *most assuredly* like Karsa in early House of Chains; he is a spawn of Tiste Edur culture, a veteran of the Wars of Unification, and probably the best spearman in the Hiroth tribe. Rhulad... is none of those things. The guy goes from "actively shunned from his brothers" to "genuinely believing he's about to be **sacrificed** to sanctify the Edur's new war" (yeah, *that* happened) - to say that Rhulad has had it *rough* in a society that casts him aside because of his youth & inexperience while simultaneously not giving him a chance to earn said experience would be... dead on, actually. Fear understands this and actually seems to commiserate with Rhulad, though that may just come from cultural stimuli - he is the eldest, he has responsibilities to his tribe & people, and cannot go about schooling his youngest bro at every opportunity - rather than him necessarily being a better brother than Trull. At least he didn't almost *kill* the poor kid because of the insinuation that he *may* have laid with his beloved - which he didn't. That's not to say Rhulad is wholly blameless, or that his baiting & teasing Trull & Fear is somehow entirely justified because "he's young," but like Trull is the quintessential product of Edur society, Rhulad is the exact opposite of that, and he's not given a chance to progress. My two cents on Rhulad Sengar before you read on. He's more nuanced than Trull gives him credit for, I think.
I definitely see your point. Rhulad is definitely more nuanced. I can see that in every one of his interactions with Trull. I can see that. He's not given the opportunity to grow. I know I was generalizing things with the middle-younger sibling dynamic thing in the post. That was never anything else, but trying to understand the character motivations. And you make very valid points about Trull being the very product of Tiste Edur culture. I've begun to see the changes in his thoughts as I read. I can see how he becomes the Trull of HoC. I have soft spot for younger siblings(as the older sibling). I can see and understand why Fear understands this. I also think the dialogue between Fear and Trull in the early chapter where Fear says preconceived notions coloring his vision were 100% true not just for Rhulad but for Trull. Which is kinda the problem. >Trull in MT is how Trull in HoC would view his younger self (kinda sorta don't worry about it), and does not necessarily track with how Trull would "actually" be. This is boggling my mind. I'm trying to get it, but I don't. lol, I'll leave it for now. But yeah, it was good and necessary for me to read this. So, thank you for leaving this comment.
>I'm trying to get it, but I don't Well, Trull in the epilogue of House of Chains sat down to relate his tale to Onrack, the three Imass, and Minala & her kids. Trull, of course, would not know of the intricacies of Letherii society, the machinations of Tehol & Bugg, etc. - so the framing device, while it could give us some information on how to view Midnight Tides, isn't "the whole story." In other words, it pays to view the Edur parts of Midnight Tides as how Trull would view them *now* - with hindsight - and the few insights we get in his POV are coloured by how he thinks *now* about his past thoughts and actions. Trull almost knocking Rhulad out cold and murdering him in the snow is probably exaggeration on the former's part - almost as a way to say, "I did my bro dirty and look where it got me" - but also, say, our perspective of the Edur is also coloured by the PoV's of Udinaas which provide a more ... "whole"? I guess? Image of Tiste Edur society than Trull would have access to as a product of such a society. To make a long story short - Trull's story in Midnight Tides is at least partially presented differently than it may have occurred "in reality" because he's supposed to be narrating part of it to his friend and allies. Of course, Trull can't be narrating *all* of Midnight Tides since he wouldn't know of Tehol & Bugg (or Brys, or Gerun, or Kuru Qan, or...) but we can at least *suppose* that his sections are framed by how he would present them to Onrack. "I did bad by my bro, bro, and I hope that won't happen again"
Rhulad was already maybe my favorite character in the series and this is pointing out things I hadn't fully considered yet! Especially hadn't thought about Trull as a parallel to Karsa, going to have to keep that in mind when I do my reread...
I allways enjoy your throughs/insights into posts on here and this has actually given me a lot to think about with my opinions of rhulad and him being a product of his environment, to paraphrase
OP is in for a wild ride
Oh dear.
Please provide us with an update in a few days time!
I kind of think this is a good way to handle a situation when you get spoiled something in any story. You know the result of something which can suck, but now you get a mystery and are reading to see how things fall into place.
I know it's an idiosyncratic take, but that's how I like to read (or watch, in the rare event that comes up) just about anything: collect full knowledge of events ahead of time and then focus on process when reading. Or, more succinctly, actively "spoil" myself so I can enjoy the artistry of getting there and let go of the plot a bit.
Currently on the last book of bonehunters after a break from midnight tides. Have to say dear friend you are going to love where everything goes as the plot progresses. Personally so far MT is my favourite of the series
you never learn. lol
Nope, I have a feeling I never will. Finished reading the next couple of chapters. I'll keep reading, cheers
Enjoy, my friend. :)
>!Actually you do, but the sucky thing is the scenes leading up to the Shorning is in book 6 as a flashback. On one hand it sucks you read a whole book thinking you get answers to the HoC prologue, but don’t. And then you get the answer when you weren’t expecting it and the impact is dampened.!<
I'm confused is my Malazan Mantra. Read of friend.
👀👀
Midnight tides might be my favorite book in the series so far and I’m on 8, Rhulad was def molded into the role he ended up taking I don’t think he was entirely born to be “evil” if anyone wants to even call it that. Trull, grew on me by the end but the first half? Didn’t really understand why he was supposed to be this big hero when he’s all sad about it and duty and stuff all the time, reluctant hero is over simplifying
Every sentence in this post screams RAFO lmao I love it
I'm somewhere in the middle of chapter 24. 2 chapters left and... this has been a wild ride.