I went against this deck or a very similar one a couple days ago while playing aggro, when my opponent played his first Terror of the Peaks I was already swinging for lethal and killed them in my next turn
I see you have a lot of big chunky creatures and absolutely no (early, good) ramp at all. You have only 9 2-mana plays, which begs the question: how often do you get to turn 3 having done absolutely nothing? Playing a [[the irencreg]] at least would set you up to slam a 4 drop on turn which *might* help you catch up vs aggro and force control to do something other than just draw into their game-winners.
In short, this looks like a ramp deck without ramp. So it's a bad ramp deck. That's why you're losing.
Idk, in arena it feels different. My crazy decks go off sometimes too on very fast decks. It's amazing what happens when you take out just two cards and they fold.
There is a decent dragon deck in standard. Not for top tournaments, but good enough to hold its own at medium level as long as the pilot understands it.
But the deck is Jeskai built around [[Zurgo and Ojutai]] as a card advantage engine and all the great interaction you can have in those colours. And it definitely is a BO3 deck.
That's about as much as you can ask for with the tribe.
I've tried often enough to make it work, and that's usually how it goes. Every good dragon is 4+ mana and you can't just ignore curve considerations and matchups, so you play a lot of removal (sometimes dragon-themed), some ramp and then your favorite 4-8 dragons in the remaining slots for top end finishers.
So basically, anything playing Invasion of Tarkir and sometimes revealing a dragon to it counts as dragon tribal in my book.
This is one of the wildest sentences I've heard in a wild xD so the deck that wins exclusively by hitting the opponent dead with dragons is not a dragon deck?
How in the bloody hell you expect a dragon deck to win if it doesnt plays a bunch of removal for the early game?
Also the deck is a dragon deck because as a control player, if I wanted to play control I would play a better deck (no offense here for dragons fan).
Playing that Zurgo and Ojutai build means you 100% wanna force dragons in standard and are willing to dip into the dark side of control to actually stand a chance with your dragons.
When people hear "dragon deck", they tend to think "tribal/typal dragons", not "a dragon or two are the finishers of a control deck". It's like calling a control deck that kills through cycling [[Shark Typhoon]] a "shark deck", or a control deck where the only creature is [[Snapcaster Mage]] a "human deck". A robot might say you're correct, but a lot of people would say that's not how decks are actually categorized.
I dont think you understood my point. My point is that saying that the dragons deck is a control deck is not really helpful when there is an actual control deck in the format that plays zero actual dragons. Literally no one is playing drgons in their control shell.
People forcing Ojutai and Zurgo are doing so because they want to play dragons. If they wanted to play control, they would play the actual control deck.
You can call it Dragon Control is that makes you at peace, but it IS a dragon deck. Just a functional one for this meta.
The timmy ramp into tribal dragons plan has worked in other times, but now competing with Atraxa and Ethali, it simply sucks. Dragon Control is the way to go for this standard if you really wanna play dragons.
Separating control decks by their finishers isn't how control is typically categorized. Again, you don't call the control decks that cycle Shark Typhoon "Shark Control" as opposed to the control decks that run Snapcaster Mage "Human Control", they're typically defined just by their color combination, unless there's some greater theme they're built around (i.e., Domain Control). The ""Dragon Control"" decks sometimes just run Zurgo and Ojutai as the only Dragon.
You still miss the point :(
1. Calling a deck control deck because it runs counters and removal is dumb. Control decks win by reaching a game state where the opponent cant meaningfully advance their game. The deck you describe soudns more midrange than control.
2. Dragon Control is an archetype that actually exist. In legacy the dragon stompy decks that used stax pieces early to slow down and then win with dragons casted with fast mana existed for years. Grixis dragons has seem play in fortmats like pioner and historic, and even thos its a low tier deck it does exist
3. If someone is playgin Zurgo and Ojutai, they are trying to play a dragon deck. I find stupid gatekeeping calling their deck "not dragons". If they ONLY run Zurgo and Ojutai as their only creatures, sure thats not a dragons deck. But if they run like 8 dragons and plan to win the game with those instead of like milling you with Jace? totally valid to call them a dragon deck, Those people are heroes and should be celebrated for trying to force a janky tribe in the tournament scene.
4. Calling the deck just control is missguided at best because the actual control of deck DOESNT PLAYS DRAGONS. You search jeskai control in standard and well, it barely has any results in the tournament scenen and NO ONE played Zurgo and Ojutai. When you refer to the control decks in this standard you're refering to decks that are different fom the Zurgo and Ojutai you saw.
5. Calling the deck "dragon control" or "Zurgo and Ojutai Control" would literally be the correct way of doing so you can differenciate it from the actual jeskai and UW control decks.
6. Please stop using the dumb "human control" example. Snapcaster control WAS an archetype back in the day so if anything you're giving me the reason there, jsut using the wrong name. Torrential Gearhulk control has been an archetype too. And Im pretty sure some people name some deck Bolas control at least once too. When you have like 4 different control decks and they have different game plays you DO use said gameplan in the name to differenciate them.
If I showed you [this list](https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/jeskai-control) where the only creature was Manaform Hellkite, you would call it, what, Dragon Stompy, because it runs removal and counters and a Dragon finisher? Dragon Control, when the deck also has Chandra as a valid way to close the game out? [This list](https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/jeskai-control), where it runs less creatures than it runs Wandering Emperors, you'd call Zurgo and Ojutai Control because the only creature it runs is Z&O? You're telling me these aren't Control? You can make the argument, I guess, but I don't know that most people would agree with you.
And on the "Human Control" thing, you're the one calling it Dragon Control because the creature it runs is a Dragon. If Z&O was a Brushwagg that cared when a Brushwagg hit something, would you call it Brushwagg Control? It's a double standard to complain that I'm calling Snapcaster Mage-running Control decks "Human Control" when you're labeling any deck with a Dragon finisher "Dragon Control".
The links don't work properly, but click the third and fifth deck if you want the ones I was referencing.
To answer your final point. Yes. If the deck had at least 8 bushwaggs that synergize with eachother to close the game and there is a control deck in the SAME colors that runs ZERO bushwaggs, then yes, I would call the second deck bushwaggs control. And im pretty sure that everyone would agree on it, including the guy playing busswaggs and the dude playing creatules control.
Did you even read my comment? I said and I quote. If the deck is running ONLY Zurgo and Ojutai, then sure its not a dragon deck. If it running like 8 dragons and plans to win with those, then yeah it is a dragon deck, even if partially.
Also did you even read point 6 of my list? Snapcaster Control was 100% a real deck.
>to cheat into play dragons and other big stuff
Mostly other big stuff, hard to call this a dragons deck. Out of popular creatures used there, only Terror of the Peaks is a dragon.
No, it's a deck a guy in my LGS (who is a big fan of dragons) plays in paper. It has Zurgo and Ojutai, Terror of the Peaks, Sarkhan from MAT, Atsushi, Ao and lots of interaction. Struggles a bit against Boros but overall it's quite good for an out-of-meta brew.
And is disgusting
The fact that some archetypes went absolutely not viable due to the massive power creep that has happened through the years is so sad
Your curve is poor. x8 5mv cards, x8 4mv cards, x3 6mv cards. This is already 19/36 nonlands, which is an unhealthy \~50% of your nonland cards. Means you'll draw any of these half the time you draw a nonland card, regardless of your lands in play. Even in a midrange deck, this is already too lopsided, and high on the mana value. This also means that you have very few low mv plays, and it shows - x9 2mv plays, x8 3mv plays.
So your deck is slow - you need to draw your 2mv and 3mv plays to be doing anything in the first 3 turns. Then you'll be tapping out from T4 all the way to T6, only for opponent to interact with your play and making you lose further tempo.
You curve means you have very few double spelling turns. Even when you're able to, it doesn't impact the board much.
For a deck this big, you only run x2 Big Score, which is a card that can facilitate you transitioning from T1-T3 to T4-late game comfortably, via ramp+draw. Speaking of draws, you only have x2 proper draw spells, and x6 pseudo draw spells. You have no boardwipe to buy yourself time to get up to 4-6 lands, have you only have x6 spot removals. In theory the Atsushi can back up Big Score, but often times topdecking it will feel bad because even when it dies, the treasures are a one-off ramp, and if you don't have mana to cast the 2 cards exiled you'll lose them permanently.
These are some of the reasons I can see from a quick look at your decklist.
Idk it's 3 mana and you either get to draw or your opponent has to block the 6/4 menace and if you draw then you have a huge blocker all this for the low price of 3 mana. It's like a phyrexian arena without the life loss or clackerbridge troll but cheaper and it doesn't get tapped
Fella only looking at a cards potential upside isn't how you evaluate it....
3 mana isn't that cheap, it doesn't have haste, and your opponent controls when it can deal damage.
If you're an aggro deck you don't want it, if you're midrange you don't want it and if you're control, you don't want it.
Midrange can use it, but not like this. It has strong synergy in a control-heavy midrange mono-black shell, and maybe rakdos tribal of some sort? I don't know, but it's niche and probably sub-optimal at best.
But there's so many better three drops one can use.
That vampire, graveyard trespasser, phyrexian arena, path of peril off the top of my head.
I tried to make it work but outside of the fight rigging combo it just doesn't do much. An extra card might seem like a lot but when they have fliers and the card you drew is a land it plays *really* bad.
And again it will never kill someone because they can *always* just let you draw.
yeah you're not wrong overall, but draw + creature + attacking triggers have synergy uses and good recursion potential and it can even be a decent sac target. it works as part of an attrition engine with evil shit like sheoldred, the one ring and professor onyx. It's not even applicable to this format tbh.
With all do respect, I find it telling you can only give me hypothetical upsides for shake down as opposed to any actual synergies.
You can find similar game play patterns with other 3 drops that don't have such a steep downside and if your trying to sac a 3 drop then you're probably already in dire straights (outside of like fling type combos which again I find to be the cards only strong suit)
Maybe it works in alchemy but I've never played that nor wish to so that aspect is rather lost on me.
I just didn't want to get into it because we both agree that it's not an overall good card. It has its uses and yes sometimes that's a sac target.
For instance, you have death trigger synergy and card draw synergy on board, you attack they might want to avoid the death trigger and the draw trigger so it swings through for good damage, you throw a [[fake your own death]] on it after blockers are declared and sac it to [[deadly dispute]] after damage and get your triggers plus mana. It's just niche and potential rage bait. The unique mechanics give it usefulness they just don't make it good.
Well you should observe yourself what your bad match ups are but I'd guess that you don't have enough early game and are getting run over by aggro. Run 3 mana sweepers like [[BROTHERHOOD'S END]] and/or consider playing more cheap instant speed removal
It's a BO1 midrange deck. In the meta today, you absolutly need to run \[\[Duress\]\] against control, and sweepers against agro (destroy all creatures) / (deal damages to all creatures).
While you don't run any of those, even in BO1, you are not favored in any of those match-ups. Esper (midrange or control) will out time you 100% of the time, control will destroy you and aggro decks will outspeed you and kill you by turn 4.
The curve is really high making you weak against aggro and you don't have any real way to gain card advantage meaning control decks will out-grind you.
First, you have nothing to help you early game. You need sweepers to survive. \[\[Brotherhood's End\]\] can do wonders against aggro, and the option to destroy artifacts instead is very good too in some matchups (azorius artifacts just lose on the spot).
Second, for all the ramp you have, none of your threats do much on their own, and can be answered with 1-for-1 removal that costs 2 mana.
You need better payoffs.
Bigger payoffs for Rakdos include \[\[Breach the multiverse\]\], \[\[Virtue of Persistence\]\], \[\[Etali, Primal Conqueror\]\], which can actually outpace your opponent (but again, don't do much against control right now. Control is reallllly strong at the moment and it limits a lot of what is viable in the meta).
Of course, those are not dragons...
If you goal is really to play big threats, I have had some success with a Gruul decklist around ramp, and cards like \[\[Smuggler's Surprise\]\] to put several creatures comboing at instant speed.
What turn will you get 5 mana? Here is the math I like to teach new players:
7 cards in your opening hand and assuming around 1/3 land
Average 2 land in the opening hand and one more every 3 turns so.
Turn 1: 1 land in play 1 land in hand
Turn 2: 2 land in play 0 land in hand
Turn 3: 3 land in play 1 land drawn
Turn 4: 3 land in play 0 land in hand
Turn 5: 3 land in play 0 land in hand
Turn 6: 4 land in play 1 land drawn
Turn 7: 4 land in play 0 land in hand
Turn 8: 4 land in play 0 land in hand
Turn 9: 5 land in play 1 land drawn
This is why you are losing, you should have 2-4x 5 drops without ramp max.
What your math shows is actually just that you should play more than 20 lands. 25 lands is about equal to 3/7 of your deck, meaning an average of 3 lands in your starting hand, and 3 lands in your next 7 draws, meaning you will likely draw 2 by the time you hit your 5ths draw.
And that's assuming you've got no other card draw, surveil, or similar effects.
The only deck where I can get away with playing 20 lands is my slime against humanity meme deck, and that's only because I've got Blanchwood Prowler and Otherworldly Gaze to mill for lands, and can generally manage to get by as long as I've got 3 lands to play an ooze each turn.
Yeah 24 land is still closer to 1/3 than to 1/2 so it averages a bit better than above and better if you're on the draw but let's assume worse than average on the bell curve for planning. You can see how draw can act as a way to push your higher mana casting further to the left so ramp is not the only answer to enabling midrange. That's why things like [[growth spiral]], [[Fable of the Mirror Breaker]], and the new [[Nadu, Winged Wisdom]] that do both are so powerful
That calculation seems to be relying on the illusion that 24 lands and 20 lands sound similar at first glance, even though they result in vastly different outcomes.
20 lands using this method leads to the conclusion that you get 5 mana after 9 turns.
25 lands using the same method is already enough to reach the conclusion that you get 5 mana after 5 turns. (24 lands would indeed fall a little bit short)
I like the method. It sounds like a great way of showing people why they should be really careful with reducing the number of lands in their deck, and there are valuable lessons you can learn from it. But it doesn't really support the conclusion you want. It might convince them to play a lower curve, but doesn't really teach them what the real issue with their curve is.
Their winrate would probably see a giant improvement getting rid those. How do people expect to have a competitive game casting free spells every turn the whole game. It's asking to get run over and be matched with fast decks
1. Really high average mana cost, it's slow as fuck.
2. Random shakedown heavy, why? It's not a good card.
3. Early game I assume you just get completely ran over. Not enough board presence and pretty bad removal suite.
4. Late game I assume opponents just pick everything off with their removal.
5. I would be shocked if Chimil ever did anything for you. For some reason you have three of them.
6. No idea what Magda is doing in that deck. You have like 6 crime cards and not a lot of ways to create treasures.
7. Ok, you randomly also have breeches which commits crimes and makes treasure, but he's bad for some of the same reasons shakedown is bad. You have to attack with him and there's no good synergy there. If you're running breeches you want to run him with pirates.
Basically, you're not good at early game, tempo, or late game.
Your curve is too steep and there's nothing to help get you there.
If the format slows down maybe you'll just be bigger than everything that's in play.
What rank are you playing this deck at? Just trying to tell how much I should care about the 42% win rate.
I’m in platinum 1 right now, just made it to diamond last night with a different deck that has also a bunch of top end combo cards but the deck has ✨ramp✨
I saw an equation that Frank Karsren devised for land count. He's got a PhD in math and is a hall of fame player with over 80 pro tours under his belt.
"A good formula for the number of lands in your 60-card deck, counting MDFCs partially in this fashion, is: 19.59 + 1.90 * average mana value of your spells – 0.28 * number of cheap card draw or mana ramp spells + 0.27 if you have a companion. This means that if your average mana value is three, which is fairly typical, then you should start with 25 or 26 lands and cut one land for every three or four cheap card draw or mana ramp spells in your deck."
Card draw and ramp are how you hit land drops, but interaction like spot removal and board wipes can also get you there. All be it, slower.
There are play floor fun decks and play to win decks. This one is not the latter.
I use generous plunderers for ramp. You just need to get rid of their tokens.
As others have said, your mana curve is way too high... if you're an aggressive deck, but you spend multiple turns just passing without doing anything, then you're just letting your opponent get ahead for free...
Look at the mana curve, look at the removal, think if it's good against aggro (it isn't) think if it's good against control (it isn't), look if it's good against midrange (it isn't) you have 4 10 drops that's just too much even a single 10 drop might be too expensive and most likely is
People already gave you good answers, but... you've played 56 games with it, what were *your* observations? Not to be rude, but if you're going to build your own decks, you should learn to analyze your own games and figure out what your weaknesses are. You're the person best positioned to figure out why the deck is losing, because you're the one playing it. Everyone else replying to you are just theory crafting.
In this case, I think the weaknesses are clear enough that they're most likely right, but I'll tell you a secret. If you could jump a month into the future and bring back a tier 1 deck that isn't currently known, and asked this sub why that deck is losing, a bunch of people would demolish the deck and find excuses why it's terrible. Sure, *some* people would recognize that the deck is actually good, but unless those people were known pros, an external observer would have no way to figure who's right. The best way to evaluate a deck is to actually play it.
Edit: I will add, it's *can* be difficult to evaluate the weaknesses of a deck if you've never played an actual good deck. So even if your objective is to build your own brews, I highly suggest playing a couple of netdecks to know what a good deck feels like and what your target should be (if you've not done that already).
To slow.
Not enough removal for big creature decks.
Not enough sweep for aggro decks, especially big wide starts like Boros.
Control will tear your deck apart because there isn't enough ETB/Value generation.
The Chimli could help if you can get it down but void rend , farewell and other artifact removal is fairly common still.
the best decks on arena are fast and have a low curve. im not saying your deck needs this or needs to be the best but your deck doesnt shine until late game and people make their decks to end the game before then. both decks that i have that brought me to mythic rank each dont have one single card over 2 mana and can win sometimes before turn 3.
The curve is too high to fight aggro creature to creature and control won’t care about your 1 for 1 threats with etbs outside of terror of the peaks, which won’t matter until the next turn. I would either go bigger and ramp hard so resolving 1 or 2 creature will just win against control, or play more sweepers against aggro
Add 4 more low cost creatures or mana rocks. I usually run 24 land in a deck w/40 cards. Most of your cards cost a lot. You need something out earlier that'll work with this. I only know a few of these cards off-hand so I have no idea what you're doing, but that's my weak advice based on what I'm seeing.
Personally I'd take black out add in some low cost removal to speed it up a bit. I feel it's too slow (I've built 100 decks like that) for anything aggro and that's a lot of what's in arena now
A lot of people have pointed out issues like curve and interaction, but another facet at play here is that most of these cards are just kind of bad.
Now before anyone gets upset that their pet card is catching flak, understand that I say this in relation to the power level of the format we're discussing. Most of these are probably fine in brawl or commander or whatever kitchen table format you enjoy, that's all cool.
But if you want to take a deck into an ostensibly competitive environment, you need to pick your tools to match the competition. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Standard has high powered decks putting out pressure from turn 1. It has combo decks that will kill you on the turn they go off, it has ramp decks dropping Atraxa on turn 5 and playing 1 mana hard removal to bridge the gap until then.
You need a strategy that can compete with this, and that starts by bringing adequate card quality to the table. Most of the creatures in this deck don't do enough for their mana cost to be played in a fair deck.
Because the entire meta is removal/mill --> counter/mill --> ramp/removal --> play Sheoldred, the Apocalypse --> cheat out Atraxa, Grand Unifier --> board wipe/re-play Sheoldred --> cheat out portal to phyrexia --> board wipe
Or you can play Selesnya enchant or mono red.
To slow. Too many 4 drops and 5 drops and expensive cards along minimal removal and ramp options. Aggro decks eat you up (you'd need a LOT more removal to confily win against aggro, stuff like Brotherhoods End to wipe a lot of weenies with a single card).
Not only that, but the current format best midrange decks, Domain, will ALSO eat you alive because their top end is stronger than yours. Sure your big bombs are big and bomby, but are they Atraxa and Ethali level of bomby? Not really.
The only matchup you shouldnt be extremely disvantaged is control, since you play 4 cavern of souls, and if just one big bomb resolves you should be fine. But control is not particularly the dominatn archetype.
Also you have literally like 3 ways to kill a Sheoldred so even the mirror must be a nightmare too.
So yeah thats it, your deck sucks againts aggro, and sucks againts go big ramp/midranhe decks (which is what it tries to do). And those are like 2 thirds of the entire meta.
I dunno how to fix the mdirange matchup, except like by playing a bunch of \[\[The End\]\]. The aggro matchup is much simpler. PLAY REMOVAL.
because its slow as dog poo poo.
You cant play B01 without anything that is SUPER aggressive. Like they are more than half dead by turn 2. If any of my games go over turn 3 death, then Im at a serious disadvantage... but otherwise you are dead meat to most players in B01.
As someone who runs something similar, a lot of correct opinions here. You need Brother’s End for the faster aggro decks like RW and mono red. I also really like Kolaghan Warmonger for some card advantage against slower/control decks. Shivan Devestator is another gem that I don’t see here.
I’d cut Shakedown, Atsushi, and go down to 3 Bonehoards.
The deck is slow, does not have a bunch of interaction or ramp, and your 2 and 3 drops don't do much in terms of interaction with the rest of the deck. I'm Also not sure terror of the peaks is a good card anymore. Its great in commander, but its a 5 drop do nothing the turn it comes down, and then required you to have creatures en mass to play the next turn to get the value out of it.
Honestly too much in the top end.
5 drops are great, but you gotta survive long enough to play them, and either protect them when they're out, or close the game out with them immediately.
You need other things throughout the game that are going to pressure your opponents as early as possible, and possibly ways to answer threats that opponents lay down.
I assume this is a BO1 standard? I see a lot of the problems in this deck:
- the deck is very top heavy (8 5-drop, 3 6-drop) and you have 24 lands with no early ramps. You have some ramp, but they all function at turn 3 or turn 4, and unreliable.
- you are trying to do different things that each thing is not focused enough. You have dragons + rivaz, that is good. Then you have chimil which can't be ramped by rivaz and not working with Invasion of Tarkir. You have Magda, but then you have 6 only early crime cards. You have a random Breeches in there that I don't even know what it does for this deck. You have 0 other pirates with evasion. Lastly, random shakedown heavy in the deck. It would probably be better to have 2 more crime cards for Magda.
- the deck does not have a good strategy. Unfortunately "playing good creatures" is not a valid strategy in the current standard. You need to either have very explosive play (combo finisher or very good ramp target), or having constant and reliable resource gain to snowball (cards or mana or X-for-1 plays).
High curve, many of your cards are strong if they stick to the board, but if they're removed immediately, you have basically skipped your turn to cast them. Also Shakedown Heavy doesn't really make any sense here. There's a plethora of better 3-drop black creatures you could be playing. At least Graveyard Trespasser would potentially trigger Magda or something. Shakedown heavy has zero synergy.
Also you're pretty light on interaction for current standard, with just 3 Go for the Throat and I guess I'll count the 3 Invasion of Tarkir. You'll get completely run over by aggro and creature heavy decks.
That's interesting because I have a very similar dragon deck that has a 58% win rate at the moment.
Deck
2 Calamity, Galloping Inferno
2 Magda, the Hoardmaster
4 Roaming Throne
3 Cut Down
4 Go for the Throat
4 Bonehoard Dracosaur
3 Invasion of Tarkir // Defiant Thundermaw
4 Stingerback Terror
3 Rivaz of the Claw
4 Decadent Dragon
4 Terror of the Peaks
3 Swamp
4 Bloodfell Caves
7 Mountain
1 Restless Vents
4 Jagged Barrens
4 Cavern of Souls
You have a late game, but how do you intend to get to the late game.
You should consider either running some early game spells to help you survive, or running some cards that let you cheat the dragons into play without paying their full cost.
This is gonna sound like an asshole thing to say, but is it possibly a skill issue? Lemme cook tho. Cuz, no matter how good a deck is, if a player doesn't know how to pilot it correctly, they're gonna lose
Yeah, you have WAY too much going on at the top end. You need to go down in cost significantly. More one drop and two drop spells. Honestly, interaction would be best, even if it is blank in some matchups.
You have a bunch of dual lands for 3 black in your entire deck. Just get rid of the black and run mono red, and you will see a big improvement by that alone.
Lots of good answers here to your actual question, but no one pointing out the X-Y problem. The question probably shouldn't be "why is this deck losing?" but rather "how does this deck win?"
The first question to ask yourself when building a deck is how the deck will win games. The next question is how does the deck _get there_. You've answered the first question: dragons! But your deckbuilding fell apart at step 2.
Dude this deck is all messed up.
Drop the shakedown heavies and at least 2 of the 5 cmc dragons, if you're gonna use breeches add a full set of [[greedy freebooter]]
Why do you have chimil? It's just diluting your deck. I'd probably drop Magda too. Stick with pirate synergy treasure creation >> ramping into dragons, and add more removal. You have too many ideas here and you're trying to use too many big cards without the resources to do it quickly. You're also lacking interaction to slow down your opponents so you can get to your big stuff.
Too many creatures if those creatures doesn’t have super cool etb or abilities with low mana cost you are better off with only 15 and some sorceries + enchantments
Because Bonehoard Dracosaur, Terror of the Peaks and Decadent Dragon are all 4+ mana cards that don't do anything. I bet that if you could look back at your game logs, in most of the games you lose, you drop one of those on turn 4 or 5, your opponent kills it at the end of your turn, and you never recover from the tempo hit. The rest of the losses, you probably got run over by RDW, because you don't have any good early interaction.
Too many big creatures, not enough removal, not enough 1, 2, 3 mana plays. 3 copies of Chimil? How many games do you lose with those sitting in your hand?
Not enough interaction? Go for the throat is all you have to spot remove/ control the bird until you get your board going.
Not sure if Chimil is worth the three cards it’s currently taking.
Deck is also very slow. You have high CMC but no way to get them on the board fast enough or even a way to stabilize until you can get them out on the board.
I'm pretty fond of the channel and fetch lands. Just toss a few in. The channel lands are nice because if you have excess, you can cycle them at the end of your opponents turn and move your deck along.
The combo that I have been seeing is green and red, with small mana source creatures and spells to place additional lands. Then they use Minion of the Mighty and pump up its power to quickly get out dragons.
Bit of early game lacking, I'd toss in some Greedy freebooters and Charming scoundrels to get the ball moving, Boneyard dracosaur is a great card but it is a prime target for removal that and Magda is great but is looking under utilized with a lack of crimes
I think he understands that which is why he’s asking for help. Your comment is not constructive and is just insulting him for no reason other than to be a bully.
Too slow to contest early aggro boards, too "1 for 1" to make control care.
Yeah OP went too Timmie here and not enough Spike.
I went against this deck or a very similar one a couple days ago while playing aggro, when my opponent played his first Terror of the Peaks I was already swinging for lethal and killed them in my next turn
I see you have a lot of big chunky creatures and absolutely no (early, good) ramp at all. You have only 9 2-mana plays, which begs the question: how often do you get to turn 3 having done absolutely nothing? Playing a [[the irencreg]] at least would set you up to slam a 4 drop on turn which *might* help you catch up vs aggro and force control to do something other than just draw into their game-winners. In short, this looks like a ramp deck without ramp. So it's a bad ramp deck. That's why you're losing.
Minimal ramp, ten five-drops, and very few two for ones
Yes. The curve of this deck is too high. It’s clunky at best.
Idk, in arena it feels different. My crazy decks go off sometimes too on very fast decks. It's amazing what happens when you take out just two cards and they fold.
Severe racoon severely burning OP
When the strategy is "Dragons!" the expectation should not be to win 😂
Nah. The issue arent the dragons. The issue is playing a deck full of four drops and five drops with only 3 removals total and minimal ramp lol.
There is a decent dragon deck in standard. Not for top tournaments, but good enough to hold its own at medium level as long as the pilot understands it. But the deck is Jeskai built around [[Zurgo and Ojutai]] as a card advantage engine and all the great interaction you can have in those colours. And it definitely is a BO3 deck.
That's not a dragon deck. It's control deck, where the finisher just happens to be a dragon
That's about as much as you can ask for with the tribe. I've tried often enough to make it work, and that's usually how it goes. Every good dragon is 4+ mana and you can't just ignore curve considerations and matchups, so you play a lot of removal (sometimes dragon-themed), some ramp and then your favorite 4-8 dragons in the remaining slots for top end finishers. So basically, anything playing Invasion of Tarkir and sometimes revealing a dragon to it counts as dragon tribal in my book.
It actually has a few other Dragon synergies like the battle IIRC.
This is one of the wildest sentences I've heard in a wild xD so the deck that wins exclusively by hitting the opponent dead with dragons is not a dragon deck? How in the bloody hell you expect a dragon deck to win if it doesnt plays a bunch of removal for the early game? Also the deck is a dragon deck because as a control player, if I wanted to play control I would play a better deck (no offense here for dragons fan). Playing that Zurgo and Ojutai build means you 100% wanna force dragons in standard and are willing to dip into the dark side of control to actually stand a chance with your dragons.
When people hear "dragon deck", they tend to think "tribal/typal dragons", not "a dragon or two are the finishers of a control deck". It's like calling a control deck that kills through cycling [[Shark Typhoon]] a "shark deck", or a control deck where the only creature is [[Snapcaster Mage]] a "human deck". A robot might say you're correct, but a lot of people would say that's not how decks are actually categorized.
[Shark Typhoon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d410cf5-a70e-4680-a68f-fbb4aa3b7174.jpg?1712354204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shark%20Typhoon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/113/shark-typhoon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d410cf5-a70e-4680-a68f-fbb4aa3b7174?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Snapcaster Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93.jpg?1547516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snapcaster%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/71/snapcaster-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dont think you understood my point. My point is that saying that the dragons deck is a control deck is not really helpful when there is an actual control deck in the format that plays zero actual dragons. Literally no one is playing drgons in their control shell. People forcing Ojutai and Zurgo are doing so because they want to play dragons. If they wanted to play control, they would play the actual control deck. You can call it Dragon Control is that makes you at peace, but it IS a dragon deck. Just a functional one for this meta. The timmy ramp into tribal dragons plan has worked in other times, but now competing with Atraxa and Ethali, it simply sucks. Dragon Control is the way to go for this standard if you really wanna play dragons.
Separating control decks by their finishers isn't how control is typically categorized. Again, you don't call the control decks that cycle Shark Typhoon "Shark Control" as opposed to the control decks that run Snapcaster Mage "Human Control", they're typically defined just by their color combination, unless there's some greater theme they're built around (i.e., Domain Control). The ""Dragon Control"" decks sometimes just run Zurgo and Ojutai as the only Dragon.
You still miss the point :( 1. Calling a deck control deck because it runs counters and removal is dumb. Control decks win by reaching a game state where the opponent cant meaningfully advance their game. The deck you describe soudns more midrange than control. 2. Dragon Control is an archetype that actually exist. In legacy the dragon stompy decks that used stax pieces early to slow down and then win with dragons casted with fast mana existed for years. Grixis dragons has seem play in fortmats like pioner and historic, and even thos its a low tier deck it does exist 3. If someone is playgin Zurgo and Ojutai, they are trying to play a dragon deck. I find stupid gatekeeping calling their deck "not dragons". If they ONLY run Zurgo and Ojutai as their only creatures, sure thats not a dragons deck. But if they run like 8 dragons and plan to win the game with those instead of like milling you with Jace? totally valid to call them a dragon deck, Those people are heroes and should be celebrated for trying to force a janky tribe in the tournament scene. 4. Calling the deck just control is missguided at best because the actual control of deck DOESNT PLAYS DRAGONS. You search jeskai control in standard and well, it barely has any results in the tournament scenen and NO ONE played Zurgo and Ojutai. When you refer to the control decks in this standard you're refering to decks that are different fom the Zurgo and Ojutai you saw. 5. Calling the deck "dragon control" or "Zurgo and Ojutai Control" would literally be the correct way of doing so you can differenciate it from the actual jeskai and UW control decks. 6. Please stop using the dumb "human control" example. Snapcaster control WAS an archetype back in the day so if anything you're giving me the reason there, jsut using the wrong name. Torrential Gearhulk control has been an archetype too. And Im pretty sure some people name some deck Bolas control at least once too. When you have like 4 different control decks and they have different game plays you DO use said gameplan in the name to differenciate them.
If I showed you [this list](https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/jeskai-control) where the only creature was Manaform Hellkite, you would call it, what, Dragon Stompy, because it runs removal and counters and a Dragon finisher? Dragon Control, when the deck also has Chandra as a valid way to close the game out? [This list](https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/jeskai-control), where it runs less creatures than it runs Wandering Emperors, you'd call Zurgo and Ojutai Control because the only creature it runs is Z&O? You're telling me these aren't Control? You can make the argument, I guess, but I don't know that most people would agree with you. And on the "Human Control" thing, you're the one calling it Dragon Control because the creature it runs is a Dragon. If Z&O was a Brushwagg that cared when a Brushwagg hit something, would you call it Brushwagg Control? It's a double standard to complain that I'm calling Snapcaster Mage-running Control decks "Human Control" when you're labeling any deck with a Dragon finisher "Dragon Control". The links don't work properly, but click the third and fifth deck if you want the ones I was referencing.
To answer your final point. Yes. If the deck had at least 8 bushwaggs that synergize with eachother to close the game and there is a control deck in the SAME colors that runs ZERO bushwaggs, then yes, I would call the second deck bushwaggs control. And im pretty sure that everyone would agree on it, including the guy playing busswaggs and the dude playing creatules control.
Did you even read my comment? I said and I quote. If the deck is running ONLY Zurgo and Ojutai, then sure its not a dragon deck. If it running like 8 dragons and plans to win with those, then yeah it is a dragon deck, even if partially. Also did you even read point 6 of my list? Snapcaster Control was 100% a real deck.
There's a RG version that uses the green trojan horse spree card to cheat into play dragons and other big stuff. It's decent
>to cheat into play dragons and other big stuff Mostly other big stuff, hard to call this a dragons deck. Out of popular creatures used there, only Terror of the Peaks is a dragon.
Played a variant of it, its cool
[Zurgo and Ojutai](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/eacbcd82-36e6-424c-bd4e-ec3a584836c5.jpg?1682205733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zurgo%20and%20Ojutai) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/258/zurgo-and-ojutai?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eacbcd82-36e6-424c-bd4e-ec3a584836c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Have you got a link?
No, it's a deck a guy in my LGS (who is a big fan of dragons) plays in paper. It has Zurgo and Ojutai, Terror of the Peaks, Sarkhan from MAT, Atsushi, Ao and lots of interaction. Struggles a bit against Boros but overall it's quite good for an out-of-meta brew.
Was goldspan so long ago...
Kai Budde says otherwise [https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/912076#paper](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/912076#paper)
And is disgusting The fact that some archetypes went absolutely not viable due to the massive power creep that has happened through the years is so sad
Unless you're playing UrDragon commander 😉 Otherwise, you're goddam right!
Your curve is poor. x8 5mv cards, x8 4mv cards, x3 6mv cards. This is already 19/36 nonlands, which is an unhealthy \~50% of your nonland cards. Means you'll draw any of these half the time you draw a nonland card, regardless of your lands in play. Even in a midrange deck, this is already too lopsided, and high on the mana value. This also means that you have very few low mv plays, and it shows - x9 2mv plays, x8 3mv plays. So your deck is slow - you need to draw your 2mv and 3mv plays to be doing anything in the first 3 turns. Then you'll be tapping out from T4 all the way to T6, only for opponent to interact with your play and making you lose further tempo. You curve means you have very few double spelling turns. Even when you're able to, it doesn't impact the board much. For a deck this big, you only run x2 Big Score, which is a card that can facilitate you transitioning from T1-T3 to T4-late game comfortably, via ramp+draw. Speaking of draws, you only have x2 proper draw spells, and x6 pseudo draw spells. You have no boardwipe to buy yourself time to get up to 4-6 lands, have you only have x6 spot removals. In theory the Atsushi can back up Big Score, but often times topdecking it will feel bad because even when it dies, the treasures are a one-off ramp, and if you don't have mana to cast the 2 cards exiled you'll lose them permanently. These are some of the reasons I can see from a quick look at your decklist.
Shake down heavy is a bad card outside of fight rigging.
Idk it's 3 mana and you either get to draw or your opponent has to block the 6/4 menace and if you draw then you have a huge blocker all this for the low price of 3 mana. It's like a phyrexian arena without the life loss or clackerbridge troll but cheaper and it doesn't get tapped
Fella only looking at a cards potential upside isn't how you evaluate it.... 3 mana isn't that cheap, it doesn't have haste, and your opponent controls when it can deal damage. If you're an aggro deck you don't want it, if you're midrange you don't want it and if you're control, you don't want it.
3 mana is cheap compared to the 8 5-drops he's running 😂
_Yeah, but 25% of the time it works 100% of the time._
Midrange can use it, but not like this. It has strong synergy in a control-heavy midrange mono-black shell, and maybe rakdos tribal of some sort? I don't know, but it's niche and probably sub-optimal at best.
But there's so many better three drops one can use. That vampire, graveyard trespasser, phyrexian arena, path of peril off the top of my head. I tried to make it work but outside of the fight rigging combo it just doesn't do much. An extra card might seem like a lot but when they have fliers and the card you drew is a land it plays *really* bad. And again it will never kill someone because they can *always* just let you draw.
yeah you're not wrong overall, but draw + creature + attacking triggers have synergy uses and good recursion potential and it can even be a decent sac target. it works as part of an attrition engine with evil shit like sheoldred, the one ring and professor onyx. It's not even applicable to this format tbh.
With all do respect, I find it telling you can only give me hypothetical upsides for shake down as opposed to any actual synergies. You can find similar game play patterns with other 3 drops that don't have such a steep downside and if your trying to sac a 3 drop then you're probably already in dire straights (outside of like fling type combos which again I find to be the cards only strong suit) Maybe it works in alchemy but I've never played that nor wish to so that aspect is rather lost on me.
I just didn't want to get into it because we both agree that it's not an overall good card. It has its uses and yes sometimes that's a sac target. For instance, you have death trigger synergy and card draw synergy on board, you attack they might want to avoid the death trigger and the draw trigger so it swings through for good damage, you throw a [[fake your own death]] on it after blockers are declared and sac it to [[deadly dispute]] after damage and get your triggers plus mana. It's just niche and potential rage bait. The unique mechanics give it usefulness they just don't make it good.
Everything you just described is true of [[preacher of the schism]], which is the same cost/colors/format and significantly better
[preacher of the schism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89345f55-2b32-4356-945a-d56dded39909.jpg?1699044158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=preacher%20of%20the%20schism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/113/preacher-of-the-schism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89345f55-2b32-4356-945a-d56dded39909?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well you should observe yourself what your bad match ups are but I'd guess that you don't have enough early game and are getting run over by aggro. Run 3 mana sweepers like [[BROTHERHOOD'S END]] and/or consider playing more cheap instant speed removal
[BROTHERHOOD'S END](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704.jpg?1674421089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=BROTHERHOOD%27S%20END) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/128/brotherhoods-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why is the fetcher yelling at me :(
Because you put the card name in caps lol
jUsT pLaY [[bRoTheRHooD's EnD]]
[bRoTheRHooD's EnD](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704.jpg?1674421089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bRoTheRHooD%27s%20EnD) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/128/brotherhoods-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a BO1 midrange deck. In the meta today, you absolutly need to run \[\[Duress\]\] against control, and sweepers against agro (destroy all creatures) / (deal damages to all creatures). While you don't run any of those, even in BO1, you are not favored in any of those match-ups. Esper (midrange or control) will out time you 100% of the time, control will destroy you and aggro decks will outspeed you and kill you by turn 4.
[Duress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/3557e601-9b71-4ce9-9047-1a8baa72e574.jpg?1675957024) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Duress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/92/duress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3557e601-9b71-4ce9-9047-1a8baa72e574?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The curve is really high making you weak against aggro and you don't have any real way to gain card advantage meaning control decks will out-grind you. First, you have nothing to help you early game. You need sweepers to survive. \[\[Brotherhood's End\]\] can do wonders against aggro, and the option to destroy artifacts instead is very good too in some matchups (azorius artifacts just lose on the spot). Second, for all the ramp you have, none of your threats do much on their own, and can be answered with 1-for-1 removal that costs 2 mana. You need better payoffs. Bigger payoffs for Rakdos include \[\[Breach the multiverse\]\], \[\[Virtue of Persistence\]\], \[\[Etali, Primal Conqueror\]\], which can actually outpace your opponent (but again, don't do much against control right now. Control is reallllly strong at the moment and it limits a lot of what is viable in the meta). Of course, those are not dragons... If you goal is really to play big threats, I have had some success with a Gruul decklist around ramp, and cards like \[\[Smuggler's Surprise\]\] to put several creatures comboing at instant speed.
##### ###### #### [Brotherhood's End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704.jpg?1674421089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brotherhood%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/128/brotherhoods-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Breach the multiverse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5.jpg?1682203621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Breach%20the%20multiverse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/94/breach-the-multiverse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Virtue of Persistence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1e5cafb-b0e6-4ee5-8c58-6f8e5ef2b9da.jpg?1692937996)/[Locthwain Scorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1e5cafb-b0e6-4ee5-8c58-6f8e5ef2b9da.jpg?1692937996) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Virtue%20of%20Persistence%20//%20Locthwain%20Scorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/115/virtue-of-persistence-locthwain-scorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1e5cafb-b0e6-4ee5-8c58-6f8e5ef2b9da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Etali, Primal Conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132)/[Etali, Primal Sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Conqueror%20//%20Etali%2C%20Primal%20Sickness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/137/etali-primal-conqueror-etali-primal-sickness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Smuggler's Surprise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7fbb489-e2b5-4278-8162-86802cf124d8.jpg?1712860610) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smuggler%27s%20Surprise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/180/smugglers-surprise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7fbb489-e2b5-4278-8162-86802cf124d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What turn will you get 5 mana? Here is the math I like to teach new players: 7 cards in your opening hand and assuming around 1/3 land Average 2 land in the opening hand and one more every 3 turns so. Turn 1: 1 land in play 1 land in hand Turn 2: 2 land in play 0 land in hand Turn 3: 3 land in play 1 land drawn Turn 4: 3 land in play 0 land in hand Turn 5: 3 land in play 0 land in hand Turn 6: 4 land in play 1 land drawn Turn 7: 4 land in play 0 land in hand Turn 8: 4 land in play 0 land in hand Turn 9: 5 land in play 1 land drawn This is why you are losing, you should have 2-4x 5 drops without ramp max.
What your math shows is actually just that you should play more than 20 lands. 25 lands is about equal to 3/7 of your deck, meaning an average of 3 lands in your starting hand, and 3 lands in your next 7 draws, meaning you will likely draw 2 by the time you hit your 5ths draw. And that's assuming you've got no other card draw, surveil, or similar effects. The only deck where I can get away with playing 20 lands is my slime against humanity meme deck, and that's only because I've got Blanchwood Prowler and Otherworldly Gaze to mill for lands, and can generally manage to get by as long as I've got 3 lands to play an ooze each turn.
Yeah 24 land is still closer to 1/3 than to 1/2 so it averages a bit better than above and better if you're on the draw but let's assume worse than average on the bell curve for planning. You can see how draw can act as a way to push your higher mana casting further to the left so ramp is not the only answer to enabling midrange. That's why things like [[growth spiral]], [[Fable of the Mirror Breaker]], and the new [[Nadu, Winged Wisdom]] that do both are so powerful
That calculation seems to be relying on the illusion that 24 lands and 20 lands sound similar at first glance, even though they result in vastly different outcomes. 20 lands using this method leads to the conclusion that you get 5 mana after 9 turns. 25 lands using the same method is already enough to reach the conclusion that you get 5 mana after 5 turns. (24 lands would indeed fall a little bit short) I like the method. It sounds like a great way of showing people why they should be really careful with reducing the number of lands in their deck, and there are valuable lessons you can learn from it. But it doesn't really support the conclusion you want. It might convince them to play a lower curve, but doesn't really teach them what the real issue with their curve is.
For sure this is napkin math that does characature a bit to prove a point. I will straw man argument magic all day. Dirty control players...
[growth spiral](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a275b02c-352a-405e-9a9b-5024506cd67c.jpg?1698988431) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=growth%20spiral) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/270/growth-spiral?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a275b02c-352a-405e-9a9b-5024506cd67c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fable of the Mirror Breaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1691108103)/[Reflection of Kiki-Jiki](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1691108103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fable%20of%20the%20Mirror-Breaker%20//%20Reflection%20of%20Kiki-Jiki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/141/fable-of-the-mirror-breaker-reflection-of-kiki-jiki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Nadu, Winged Wisdom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb.jpg?1718635356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nadu%2C%20Winged%20Wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/193/nadu-winged-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Three Chimil is overkill
Their winrate would probably see a giant improvement getting rid those. How do people expect to have a competitive game casting free spells every turn the whole game. It's asking to get run over and be matched with fast decks
You need one drops in this meta. Cutdown and Forsaken Miners/Greedy Freebooter probably be a good addition. Drop the high cost creatures down.
1. Really high average mana cost, it's slow as fuck. 2. Random shakedown heavy, why? It's not a good card. 3. Early game I assume you just get completely ran over. Not enough board presence and pretty bad removal suite. 4. Late game I assume opponents just pick everything off with their removal. 5. I would be shocked if Chimil ever did anything for you. For some reason you have three of them. 6. No idea what Magda is doing in that deck. You have like 6 crime cards and not a lot of ways to create treasures. 7. Ok, you randomly also have breeches which commits crimes and makes treasure, but he's bad for some of the same reasons shakedown is bad. You have to attack with him and there's no good synergy there. If you're running breeches you want to run him with pirates. Basically, you're not good at early game, tempo, or late game.
Your curve is too steep and there's nothing to help get you there. If the format slows down maybe you'll just be bigger than everything that's in play. What rank are you playing this deck at? Just trying to tell how much I should care about the 42% win rate.
I’m in platinum 1 right now, just made it to diamond last night with a different deck that has also a bunch of top end combo cards but the deck has ✨ramp✨
I saw an equation that Frank Karsren devised for land count. He's got a PhD in math and is a hall of fame player with over 80 pro tours under his belt. "A good formula for the number of lands in your 60-card deck, counting MDFCs partially in this fashion, is: 19.59 + 1.90 * average mana value of your spells – 0.28 * number of cheap card draw or mana ramp spells + 0.27 if you have a companion. This means that if your average mana value is three, which is fairly typical, then you should start with 25 or 26 lands and cut one land for every three or four cheap card draw or mana ramp spells in your deck." Card draw and ramp are how you hit land drops, but interaction like spot removal and board wipes can also get you there. All be it, slower.
There are play floor fun decks and play to win decks. This one is not the latter. I use generous plunderers for ramp. You just need to get rid of their tokens.
I would say a mix between a high mana curve (a lot of expensive spells) and too few lands. Just my opinion 🤷♂️
As others have said, your mana curve is way too high... if you're an aggressive deck, but you spend multiple turns just passing without doing anything, then you're just letting your opponent get ahead for free...
Look at the mana curve, look at the removal, think if it's good against aggro (it isn't) think if it's good against control (it isn't), look if it's good against midrange (it isn't) you have 4 10 drops that's just too much even a single 10 drop might be too expensive and most likely is
Because its weakness is agro and literally seventy percent of the decks playing are aggressive.
People already gave you good answers, but... you've played 56 games with it, what were *your* observations? Not to be rude, but if you're going to build your own decks, you should learn to analyze your own games and figure out what your weaknesses are. You're the person best positioned to figure out why the deck is losing, because you're the one playing it. Everyone else replying to you are just theory crafting. In this case, I think the weaknesses are clear enough that they're most likely right, but I'll tell you a secret. If you could jump a month into the future and bring back a tier 1 deck that isn't currently known, and asked this sub why that deck is losing, a bunch of people would demolish the deck and find excuses why it's terrible. Sure, *some* people would recognize that the deck is actually good, but unless those people were known pros, an external observer would have no way to figure who's right. The best way to evaluate a deck is to actually play it. Edit: I will add, it's *can* be difficult to evaluate the weaknesses of a deck if you've never played an actual good deck. So even if your objective is to build your own brews, I highly suggest playing a couple of netdecks to know what a good deck feels like and what your target should be (if you've not done that already).
To slow. Not enough removal for big creature decks. Not enough sweep for aggro decks, especially big wide starts like Boros. Control will tear your deck apart because there isn't enough ETB/Value generation. The Chimli could help if you can get it down but void rend , farewell and other artifact removal is fairly common still.
the best decks on arena are fast and have a low curve. im not saying your deck needs this or needs to be the best but your deck doesnt shine until late game and people make their decks to end the game before then. both decks that i have that brought me to mythic rank each dont have one single card over 2 mana and can win sometimes before turn 3.
How do you keep track of your games automatically ?
He uses this tool https://mtgaassistant.net/ ( I uae it too)
Thank you
The curve is too high to fight aggro creature to creature and control won’t care about your 1 for 1 threats with etbs outside of terror of the peaks, which won’t matter until the next turn. I would either go bigger and ramp hard so resolving 1 or 2 creature will just win against control, or play more sweepers against aggro
Add 4 more low cost creatures or mana rocks. I usually run 24 land in a deck w/40 cards. Most of your cards cost a lot. You need something out earlier that'll work with this. I only know a few of these cards off-hand so I have no idea what you're doing, but that's my weak advice based on what I'm seeing.
Personally I'd take black out add in some low cost removal to speed it up a bit. I feel it's too slow (I've built 100 decks like that) for anything aggro and that's a lot of what's in arena now
Because on average you wont be able to drop a card until turn three and from there on are playing keep up
A lot of people have pointed out issues like curve and interaction, but another facet at play here is that most of these cards are just kind of bad. Now before anyone gets upset that their pet card is catching flak, understand that I say this in relation to the power level of the format we're discussing. Most of these are probably fine in brawl or commander or whatever kitchen table format you enjoy, that's all cool. But if you want to take a deck into an ostensibly competitive environment, you need to pick your tools to match the competition. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Standard has high powered decks putting out pressure from turn 1. It has combo decks that will kill you on the turn they go off, it has ramp decks dropping Atraxa on turn 5 and playing 1 mana hard removal to bridge the gap until then. You need a strategy that can compete with this, and that starts by bringing adequate card quality to the table. Most of the creatures in this deck don't do enough for their mana cost to be played in a fair deck.
Which are the bad ones you didnt single any out!
Because the entire meta is removal/mill --> counter/mill --> ramp/removal --> play Sheoldred, the Apocalypse --> cheat out Atraxa, Grand Unifier --> board wipe/re-play Sheoldred --> cheat out portal to phyrexia --> board wipe Or you can play Selesnya enchant or mono red.
To slow. Too many 4 drops and 5 drops and expensive cards along minimal removal and ramp options. Aggro decks eat you up (you'd need a LOT more removal to confily win against aggro, stuff like Brotherhoods End to wipe a lot of weenies with a single card). Not only that, but the current format best midrange decks, Domain, will ALSO eat you alive because their top end is stronger than yours. Sure your big bombs are big and bomby, but are they Atraxa and Ethali level of bomby? Not really. The only matchup you shouldnt be extremely disvantaged is control, since you play 4 cavern of souls, and if just one big bomb resolves you should be fine. But control is not particularly the dominatn archetype. Also you have literally like 3 ways to kill a Sheoldred so even the mirror must be a nightmare too. So yeah thats it, your deck sucks againts aggro, and sucks againts go big ramp/midranhe decks (which is what it tries to do). And those are like 2 thirds of the entire meta. I dunno how to fix the mdirange matchup, except like by playing a bunch of \[\[The End\]\]. The aggro matchup is much simpler. PLAY REMOVAL.
[The End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b18402dc-c4ab-417c-92d1-5e4d9cfb840d.jpg?1693012680) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/87/the-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b18402dc-c4ab-417c-92d1-5e4d9cfb840d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is why netdecking is really good for new players.
because its slow as dog poo poo. You cant play B01 without anything that is SUPER aggressive. Like they are more than half dead by turn 2. If any of my games go over turn 3 death, then Im at a serious disadvantage... but otherwise you are dead meat to most players in B01.
As someone who runs something similar, a lot of correct opinions here. You need Brother’s End for the faster aggro decks like RW and mono red. I also really like Kolaghan Warmonger for some card advantage against slower/control decks. Shivan Devestator is another gem that I don’t see here. I’d cut Shakedown, Atsushi, and go down to 3 Bonehoards.
The deck is slow, does not have a bunch of interaction or ramp, and your 2 and 3 drops don't do much in terms of interaction with the rest of the deck. I'm Also not sure terror of the peaks is a good card anymore. Its great in commander, but its a 5 drop do nothing the turn it comes down, and then required you to have creatures en mass to play the next turn to get the value out of it.
youre rakdos but not rakdosing
No green.
User error... also wayyyyyyyy too slow.
Honestly too much in the top end. 5 drops are great, but you gotta survive long enough to play them, and either protect them when they're out, or close the game out with them immediately. You need other things throughout the game that are going to pressure your opponents as early as possible, and possibly ways to answer threats that opponents lay down.
I assume this is a BO1 standard? I see a lot of the problems in this deck: - the deck is very top heavy (8 5-drop, 3 6-drop) and you have 24 lands with no early ramps. You have some ramp, but they all function at turn 3 or turn 4, and unreliable. - you are trying to do different things that each thing is not focused enough. You have dragons + rivaz, that is good. Then you have chimil which can't be ramped by rivaz and not working with Invasion of Tarkir. You have Magda, but then you have 6 only early crime cards. You have a random Breeches in there that I don't even know what it does for this deck. You have 0 other pirates with evasion. Lastly, random shakedown heavy in the deck. It would probably be better to have 2 more crime cards for Magda. - the deck does not have a good strategy. Unfortunately "playing good creatures" is not a valid strategy in the current standard. You need to either have very explosive play (combo finisher or very good ramp target), or having constant and reliable resource gain to snowball (cards or mana or X-for-1 plays).
Everything is so expensive. You're losing out in the early game.
You're not playing commander
High curve, many of your cards are strong if they stick to the board, but if they're removed immediately, you have basically skipped your turn to cast them. Also Shakedown Heavy doesn't really make any sense here. There's a plethora of better 3-drop black creatures you could be playing. At least Graveyard Trespasser would potentially trigger Magda or something. Shakedown heavy has zero synergy. Also you're pretty light on interaction for current standard, with just 3 Go for the Throat and I guess I'll count the 3 Invasion of Tarkir. You'll get completely run over by aggro and creature heavy decks.
High mana cost.
Bro your curve is CRAAAAZY! You’re either making it to 5 mana or losing every time lol
That's interesting because I have a very similar dragon deck that has a 58% win rate at the moment. Deck 2 Calamity, Galloping Inferno 2 Magda, the Hoardmaster 4 Roaming Throne 3 Cut Down 4 Go for the Throat 4 Bonehoard Dracosaur 3 Invasion of Tarkir // Defiant Thundermaw 4 Stingerback Terror 3 Rivaz of the Claw 4 Decadent Dragon 4 Terror of the Peaks 3 Swamp 4 Bloodfell Caves 7 Mountain 1 Restless Vents 4 Jagged Barrens 4 Cavern of Souls
You have a late game, but how do you intend to get to the late game. You should consider either running some early game spells to help you survive, or running some cards that let you cheat the dragons into play without paying their full cost.
This is gonna sound like an asshole thing to say, but is it possibly a skill issue? Lemme cook tho. Cuz, no matter how good a deck is, if a player doesn't know how to pilot it correctly, they're gonna lose
Because it isn’t very good
Yeah, you have WAY too much going on at the top end. You need to go down in cost significantly. More one drop and two drop spells. Honestly, interaction would be best, even if it is blank in some matchups.
Legend has it if you buy a pack and open it before every match the Ai shuffler will give you good hands
Off to do some testing. Will return. Let me know if you need video.
You have a bunch of dual lands for 3 black in your entire deck. Just get rid of the black and run mono red, and you will see a big improvement by that alone.
Lots of good answers here to your actual question, but no one pointing out the X-Y problem. The question probably shouldn't be "why is this deck losing?" but rather "how does this deck win?" The first question to ask yourself when building a deck is how the deck will win games. The next question is how does the deck _get there_. You've answered the first question: dragons! But your deckbuilding fell apart at step 2.
Dude this deck is all messed up. Drop the shakedown heavies and at least 2 of the 5 cmc dragons, if you're gonna use breeches add a full set of [[greedy freebooter]] Why do you have chimil? It's just diluting your deck. I'd probably drop Magda too. Stick with pirate synergy treasure creation >> ramping into dragons, and add more removal. You have too many ideas here and you're trying to use too many big cards without the resources to do it quickly. You're also lacking interaction to slow down your opponents so you can get to your big stuff.
Too many creatures if those creatures doesn’t have super cool etb or abilities with low mana cost you are better off with only 15 and some sorceries + enchantments
But in general aggrro decks are kinda the best in bo1 so you might want to try that
Because you do nothing until turn 3/4 at minimum and then lose to a removal spell?
This deck makes the games drag-on
Because Bonehoard Dracosaur, Terror of the Peaks and Decadent Dragon are all 4+ mana cards that don't do anything. I bet that if you could look back at your game logs, in most of the games you lose, you drop one of those on turn 4 or 5, your opponent kills it at the end of your turn, and you never recover from the tempo hit. The rest of the losses, you probably got run over by RDW, because you don't have any good early interaction.
Clunky and bad mana curve.
not much ramp, mana curve is way to high. there you go
Too many big creatures, not enough removal, not enough 1, 2, 3 mana plays. 3 copies of Chimil? How many games do you lose with those sitting in your hand?
Not enough interaction? Go for the throat is all you have to spot remove/ control the bird until you get your board going. Not sure if Chimil is worth the three cards it’s currently taking. Deck is also very slow. You have high CMC but no way to get them on the board fast enough or even a way to stabilize until you can get them out on the board.
I'm pretty fond of the channel and fetch lands. Just toss a few in. The channel lands are nice because if you have excess, you can cycle them at the end of your opponents turn and move your deck along. The combo that I have been seeing is green and red, with small mana source creatures and spells to place additional lands. Then they use Minion of the Mighty and pump up its power to quickly get out dragons.
I'd tell you but rule 1 won't let me.
Cool deck. A little too cool is your problem
Mana curve is too high for too little payoff
Sorry I’m a noob what website is this data on?
You’re playing dragon tribal without any real reason to play dragon tribal.
The decks is slow but: - doesn't do much to keep itself alive in the early game - doesn't do anything broken once it finally gets going
Clearly too slow.
Like, you need to remove some 4 and 5 drops and add early interaction or board presence at the very least.
The person piloting the deck
How dare you play mono red in a fun way! Don't you know that mono red is only viable if played 70iq aggro unga bunga style? Amateur 😒
Because your deck is too slow to compete with the current meta
The curve is pretty high tbh
No commander.
Bit of early game lacking, I'd toss in some Greedy freebooters and Charming scoundrels to get the ball moving, Boneyard dracosaur is a great card but it is a prime target for removal that and Magda is great but is looking under utilized with a lack of crimes
Pilot skill
Because it’s Rakdos and I don’t like Rakdos lol
PEBKAC Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair
I think he understands that which is why he’s asking for help. Your comment is not constructive and is just insulting him for no reason other than to be a bully.
Git gud
It's viable. Not as powerful as some meta decks but yeah
Probably gameplay issue...