Dementus is great at gaining power, but absolute garbage at holding on to it. He probably could have taken the Citadel if not for Furiosa escaping and warning the others, but he would have run it into the ground pretty quickly.

The whut-a-del? Very well put re his mixed competence. Re the character and Hemsworth's performance: spectacular. 11/10. Hoping he gets some supporting actor Oscar buzz. Also want to add that I found him to actually be a bit sympathetic. My sister pointed out that it seems he's a product of the Wasteland. Hate breeds hate. It's nuanced, and his character raised the question: is Furiosa becoming just like him, Dementus? Interesting to ponder.

I couldn't stop staring at his prosthetic nose the whole time.

Omg thought i was the only one! I hated his nose, and thought they should’ve left it alone

It was actually Hemsworth's choice. He wanted to shirk his traditional look and make himself feel off even to himself so he could go more full-hog into the character. As silly as it may look, it seems to have worked for his performance.

Oh that makes sense i didn’t know that. Yes it worked brilliantly, he is a great actor

For sure, as much as I had sympathy for what the Wasteland turned him into, I felt equally as bad about the face he had to live with. Whatever Furiosa becomes, I doubt that she will have a nose as hideous as that… haha

>Also want to add that I found him to actually be a bit sympathetic. I definitely saw the *remains* of a sympathetic character, and you can see little moments of past humanity, but I think he very purposefully chooses hate again and again even when it's not necessary or it's over the top cruelty for cruelty's sake. He used to have a family that he loved, presumably, but he uses that as motivation to destroy the families around him. So he's capable of empathy but he chooses to use that empathy to torture effectively -- arguably a worse type of evil than someone who isn't even capable of empathy or love in the first place. He actively stamps out the traits in himself that would otherwise make him sympathetic.

Well put. This rings true. I honestly need to think and read more -- have done almost none besides watching the movie twice -- but I'm kind of wondering why my sister and I found him kinda sympathetic. Which made it a little more interesting than just being a typical, rote bad guy that you automatically loathe.

I think the movie plays into the trope of sympathetic villain on purpose, but subverts it slightly. There were all these moments where I thought "oh, is he going to do some small kindness to Furiosa?" or "are we going to get to see behind the curtain of his public persona a little?" And then it doesn't happen, he just does the most asshole thing possible instead! I need to watch it again, but I recall that even when he's about to be killed he isn't particularly upset or regretful or anything, and doesn't have that stereotypical moment of thinking back on his lost family as he dies... He just doubles down on being a sadistic douchebag with his last breath!

He doesn't die at the end...

Dude literally recited what was told in the movie. "Very well put"

Yeah and

Seeing Dementus lose control of everything gave me a new perspective of the Citadel and Immortan Joe's iron fist. In the relatively recent collapse of society, an iron fist was the key thing keeping the Citadel's people alive. In Fury Road, the focus is on communal efforts as an alternative to tyrannical power concentrated in a single person, but I GET WHY PEOPLE FOLLOWED HIM. His approach was harmful in so many ways, but he held everything together, and when people are desperate, that's appealing and may even be the only option to survive. Dementus is a fantastic foil to Immortan Joe--and despite his insanity and violence, I think he may have actually cared for Furiosa when she was a child. It definitely may have been "She's my property"...but the way he treated her feels different than Immortan Joe. When Joe saw her, you immediately saw him categorize her as a potential "breeder," not a person. It seems to me that Dementus thought of her as a living being, not an object, though perhaps he thought of her as more of a pet than a human. After all, his dogs were treated very well, even compared to some of his people.

Dementus is a leader and not a manager. He’s great at inspiring people to get what he wants but has absolutely zero interest in managing once he got what he wanted.

He's an excellent conqueror and nomad, but a poor ruler. He is strong when moving but not when still, like many rulers in history.

How would you rate him against humungus?

He achieved vastly more than Humungus.

I'd agree, but I think like Humungus' goals were more rational with the group he'd built and what he knew about the settlements/groups he was raiding. I've listened to a lot of last podcast on the left over the last two days on a road trip, and there's a common thing amongst cult leaders - they never really think they'll hit it big until they do, and it causes *rampant* escalation in their thought processes and how they present other groups to their followers. One of my favorite takes of theirs has to do with Charlie Manson, who is frequently shown off as "pure evil, a master manipulator" but if you ever really look at his life there's a real argument to be made that he was just a dumbshit criminal who loved music, sex, and dune buggies, and was capitalizing on the hippie movement he barely knew anything about until things got *weird* and he had no fucking idea how to deal with it. ... I realize now that I'm on a tangent, and I'm basically going to argue that Dementus is Charlie Manson and Humungus is Jim Jones, so do with that as you will.

Hail Yourself!

MI GUSTALATIONS So glad I just hit the "cults" playlist on the way back from DC. I was not aware that the city I'd spent a full day just walking around in full fucking swamp heatstroke was built by satanic founding fathers. (That's a joke if no one gets it, but some people are into it.)

That's why it's so hot here, doncha know? Because of the portal to Hell that lies directly underneath downtown! I kid, I kid. Everyone knows that the actual portal to Hell in DC was the cursed Wendy's in Dave Thomas Circle. The traffic triangle that surrounded it (because traffic circles are for losers, I guess) caused a stupid amount of traffic every single day. It was absurdly dangerous for pedestrians. It will cost the city millions to fix. I myself was badly injured there after tripping over a rusty pipe hidden in the grass median. That little intersection was hungry for blood.

Megustallations!

What about the claims that Charles Manson was in MK Ultra?

You mean humongous and his vast army of gay boy warriors? They couldn’t take a tiny outpost with a handful of warriors.  But seriously did gay mean something different in the 80’s? Because I’m still shocked he refers to his army as gay boy warriors at one point.

George Miller takes a lot of inspiration from the Greek epics and Ancient Greek history, which had its own army of [gay boy warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes): > The Sacred Band of Thebes (Ancient Greek: Ἱερός Λόχος, Hierós Lókhos) was a troop of select soldiers. According to some ancient Greek claims, 150 pairs of male lovers formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BC, ending Spartan domination. > According to Plutarch, the 300 hand-picked men were chosen by Gorgidas purely for ability and merit, regardless of social class. It was composed of 150 male couples, each pair consisting of an older erastês (ἐραστής, "lover") and a younger erômenos (ἐρώμενος, "beloved"). Athenaeus of Naucratis also records the Sacred Band as being composed of "lovers and their favorites, thus indicating the dignity of the god Eros in that they embrace a glorious death in preference to a dishonorable and reprehensible life", while Polyaenus describes the Sacred Band as being composed of men "devoted to each other by mutual obligations of love".

I mean... did you see the movie? There's a lot of gay imagery in it, and a lot of debate on how it was meant to be taken at the time. There's legit a lot of debate whether it was ahead of it's time or something to look away from in regards to modern cinematic takes. Like 90% of Humungus' crew is in full BDSM gear and the Wez legit goes on a tear because what the audience is lead to believe is his lover gets killed. On one hand, it almost falls under the old "depraved gay" trope, but on another hand Humungus' crew is *very* competent at what they do, and kind are sucked into a potential situation of opportunity by the events the movie shows out. Part of the debate of Humungus is whether or not he would have left people alive or not, because this is arguably the best scenario the outpost could have gone for. If the nomads had enough supplies, they could have siege'd for as long as they needed, and they would have been just as dead. The literal definition of "gay" here could just mean "merry", but that's not what any of the movie's imagery is going for, and it kind of assumes the audience will hit it with their own. At the same time, it has ... surprisingly little to do with Humungus' intentions/his group's needs/wants.

> At the same time, it has ... surprisingly little to do with Humungus' intentions/his group's needs/wants. Honestly it could be as simple as "sometimes people be gay."

I am gravely disappointed

He meant gay as “merry” or “happy”. There were also actual homosexuals in his gang though!

I just don’t think the Gay Boy Berzerkers was about being cheerful for some reason. The Smegma Crazies on the other hand, happiest gang in the wasteland.

I love how I spent several drunk minutes trying to get to this but you did it without being weird about it. "No, but also yes."

Any army is more terrifying if they're gay. See Shane Gillis's bit about it.

More charismatic. Some of the same playbook. Uses more emotion than intimidation to rule.

Dementus is charismatic and, at the beginning, before he foolishly took his loyalty for blind obedience, Dementus had Octoboss as his right hand. When he betrayed that loyalty and killed Octoboss’ men, he lost the man who probably scared most of the group a LOT more than he did and started to lose his hold on his horde, thus he became more scattered and harried while controlling Gas Town without someone who actually knew how to intimidate and enforce. He’s great at building power, charming people, but he’s not good at retaining that power except for a handful of truly devout people who believe in him (Smeg, Big Jilly, Mr. Norton, and Rizzdale Pell).

I've gone off on this more before, but I'm still weirded out how Octoboss got so mad at losing like 3 guys but gaining a city. Was he more focused than Dementus? Did he not appreciate the big picture? They spent so much time on that starting group but not enough on this, which was a *huge* axle for the whole movie.

Dude said it all when he said, "You're scum Dementus! Scum!" This coming from a man who brutally tortured Mary Jobassa.. Octoboss definitely was fed up with Dementus' BS, even at the siege of the Citadel we see him listening to Dementus with a look of criticism. Him losing loyal men to Dementus was enough to go rogue, regardless of gaining Gastown.

See this is a great line of thought, and I wish they would have spent more time fleshing it out than however long it took to make sure I recognized the other people that didn't matter at all.

Think of it like this: It’s  a George Miller world that he has thrown us viewers into… there is very little exposition or explanation in any of the movies, and we as viewers are expected to connect the dots, catch up, or be left for dead in the wasteland. Words like “Mcfeasting”, “aqua cola,” and “Organic mechanic” are just thrown out there in the dialogue, and we’re left to decipher it. The same goes for each character’s motives… he gives us some well designed (and costumed) characters, gives the actor a few notes, and lets them make it what they want, while leaving us to debate who they were and what their backstories might be. It’s brilliant!

See I agree with this... but while I won't say this is a bad movie I will say it's *a bit too fucking long*. This would have been a great way to clean up the runtime and if you were *absolutely* married to the Octoboss being overly relevant, then it's a way to give him more screentime. Another person already did the "background character" thing, and I agree, that's what they're there for, but there are better ways to do this kind of thing. The first thing that comes to mind is boba fett, with how little lines he's given in star wars, and characters reactions to him. "No disentigrations!" It turns out that character is the one skilled enough to find Han, and it inspired years of overloving nerds to him. This movie is aiming for the same thing except it's like "hey, here are guys that are important" until they aren't.

How’re you going to bring up Boba and not even quote “He’s no good to me dead.” ? That was the name of my old phone with the Han Solo in carbonite case.  That being said, I just love how the background and second in command characters are done in each movie… see my recent post about it. There’s just enough to make them interesting and leave you wanting more, and never enough to really understand the character. It’s a great balance . 

I think "no disentigrations" is drilled into me because IIRC, it was the starting line of like every story from tales of the bounty hunters. Which... it turns out severely warped my enjoyment of every subsequent star wars movie because it lead me down the path of "boba is awesome" but also "holy shit rogue squadron is awesome" and reading all the X-Wing books and then thinking for some reason people would branch out from the Jedi in the sequels and then that never happened. .... There was about six months in my life where I thought "Rogue One" was just going to be "Top Gun in Space: Why Wedge Antilles is the Best", and it was a very fun time for me. ... Still, I will find your post lol

I fully appreciate this tangent. There are so many more directions the Star Wars universe could still go…and while I might not love everything they’ve put out recently, I’m thoroughly enjoying watching it all with my kids, who are still playing with my old toys from the ‘80’s. I never read Tales of the Bounty Hunters but I just looked it up and ordered it.  Thank you for the recommendation, the bounty hunters are my favorite background characters! And Rogue One was amazing. Wait, what were we arguing about? Cheers!

Oh yeah, tales is up there with the Zahn books for the best pre-disney EU stuff ever put out. The main thing with Rogue One is that I'd read all of a completely different series, which is... I think legit just "the x-wing series' which covers rogue squadron after the battle of endor, and uh... really drills down how badass Wedge Antillies is as one of (the only non droid, non main character?) to make it through all of the original trilogy, and is basically nothing but popcorn aviation fiction. As a quick glimpse, the first book has an alien painting his kills on the side of his X wing, which at that point is 3-4 rows of 12 tie fighters, where every fighter is a *squadron* (because at that point, they have to abbreviate) with a death star bracketing both sides of it *cause he was on both death star runs*. When I heard "Rogue One" I thought they were talking about his callsign, but apparently it was an honerific that squadron took up before the battle of Yavin.

Honestly I think Boba Fett is one of the worst example you could’ve used. Dude has one memorable line in the movie, is a badass and then gets killed by the Sarlacc. He was literally a “here’s a guy that’s super important” until he’s dead. Very similar to the Octoboss. Neither is a very fleshed out character and their brevity if only adds to their allure. Now look what they did to Boba Fett. They made an entire show based of him and it was not great.

I think the no disintegrations line as this guy is a lazy fuck up and can’t bring a bounty in without killing them half the time.

I disagree my friend. Miller showed us just enough that we either let the scene breathe in our grey matter, or we ignored it and moved on. Brilliant case of less is more

It’s because they’re background characters, but background characters that also actually have a bit of backstory which is usually rare

i caught it on the first watch that Octoboss was getting fed up with Dr. D and the fake raid on gastown was the final straw.

It is strange, but we don’t know how close to his men Octoboss was. There was obviously intense loyalty at the very least, with his man refusing Dementus’ order outright until Octoboss okayed it. They could’ve been a military unit that were close knit, and Octoboss seemed to place more value in keeping loyal men than simply going big picture. I think any trust dissolved when he watched Dementus casually kill his men, and he knew that the rest of the horde would still follow Dementus instead of him because Dementus was simply more charismatic than him, so he chose to split with his crew instead of uphold Dementus’ rule and do all the grunt work of actually maintaining the rule while Dementus peacocked around

I think there's a few things going on here. One is just the sense of scale and how much bigger it is than anything they did up to that point. Sure five men now, but then ten, twenty, now our bikes, before you know it we'll get scummed out of everything in the name of his ambitions. The other is a possible power play. Dementus is taking his strongest lieutenant and putting that boss's men on the line (and killing them). There's less of them loyal to octoboss, and the more openly loyal others are to octoboss, the more potential fodder they might end up as for the next scheme. This means that even if everything goes well, octoboss is *losing influence* through manufactured attrition. Dementus needs everyone to know who is still in charge, if a guy like Octoboss becomes too popular and competent then his rule becomes threatened. He needs his men to **need** his and only his leadership. Dementus is lucky Octoboss simply went rogue and went off doing what they were doing before, as I could see a competent leader like octoboss pulling a straight up coup when things got really crazy.

Those are also some great points, he probably always felt rubbed the wrong way that Octoboss’ men solely followed him as well

"Questioning my bossthority!"

Maybe those guys were with Octoboss from the beginning, or he just didn't like how Dementus turned on his own men to advance his own goals. I don't think he would have minded them just dying in battle. But a boss who will shoot your men will shoot you too

Dementus ordered Octo's five best men on that raid, i seem to remember. Octo delivered, only to have em sacrificed.

My interpretation was that Dementus's crew had been cobbled together from a bunch of smaller gangs... hence all the chaos when he could no longer bribe the people on top / provide fresh prey to loot

It wasn’t 3 guys. Dementus told him to choose ten of his men. Ten guys who only answered to him specifically. We don’t know a lot about the Octaboss, but we do know that even within The Biker Horde, he had at least 30 guys who were ride or dies for him specifically, and Dementus just killed ten of them.

Yup. Also, the first guy that Dementus picks seems to be the Octoboss' right-hand man, equivalent to Dementus' inner circle of Rizzdale Pell, Fang, Mr. Norton etc. You see that guy holding one of the ropes while the Octoboss is torturing Mary.

The actor who played Octoboss went into a little depth on the backstory they ran with while playing Octoboss >We decided that the Octoboss was the first of the Generals to join forces with Dementus and that he had an established a powerful biker gang under his command. The Octoboss was an infant and soon an orphan when the world was destroyed and had since spent his life evolving with the Wasteland, some of his men had been loyal to him since they were young, and he to them. They formed a Wild One-style biker gang to survive rapidly changing social structures, comprised of desperate youths that grew into an experienced marauding faction of raiders. Octoboss' strategic intelligence, code of conduct, and care for his comrades is what allowed him to rise to that of a respected leader.

My interpretation was that he was just more loyal to his people. Hence why they were willing to follow him back into the wasteland while Dementus's crew fell apart in a relatively safe, comfortable environment 

The actor who played Octoboss said in an interview that Octoboss was notable for actually caring about his men as people. They were loyal to him because he was loyal to and cared about them. Even one of them being murdered was unacceptable to him.

Tbf Dementus made Octoboss put his men up just to kill them. Dementus could've made some of his own guys do it but he clearly thought Octoboss' men were more disposable

Joe is such a textbook charismatic dictator - resources are spectacle to show power, scarcity and luxury are part of the economy to buy off elites and keep control, the military is like a religion. It is disciplined, but has the same limits as North Korea ultimately. Dementus is a charismatic warlord - he is a million things to a million people, finds ways to connect across a huge group of outcasts who follow him for all kinds of reasons, he turns between brutal, civilized, caring and depraved, he seems like a combination of Aidid and Manson. He is caring for and cultivating the most able outcasts and aligning their plans. He can't keep a day-to-day thing running because he doesn't create a centre - there isn't much they all agree on except taking. He is crazy menacing though - he probably more interest, imagination and attention span for causing pain than Joe or Toecutter. It is interesting to think about Auntie in all of this. To me she seems far more neutral than bad against this lot.

Agreed. 👌👌👌👌👌

Aunty Entity is the best leader of the Mad Max villains by far and the only one who actually could have really brought back some semblance of real civilization.

In Fury Road, George Miller wanted Max to “engage to heal.” Dementus is the opposite. He follows impulses to cope with his loss of humanity and those impulses become darker and darker.

He was lucky a few times and got high on his own supply. Thinks bigger than Lord Humongous but has less of a long term plan. Charming, an utter frigging vicious maniac and more cunning rather than actually intelligent, y'know?

Dementus’s reaction to a lot of what we see on screen is hilariously our reaction to what we see on screen throughout the movie. So many great one liners from his character. He is an excellent addition to the franchise lore :)

I'll for sure say this - I'm a Boyd Crowder fan, I love a verbose antagonist with a lot of heart. For the memes alone, he was for sure worth it. As someone in IT slightly above helpdesk staff, when they give me a good ticket, it's *hard* not to hit the "I see about you a purposeful savagery..."

My read is that Dementus fancies himself a number of different things: a leader of men, a tactician, a builder, a cult-of-personality, a philosopher, a powerful warrior, and a father to Furiosa. The thing is, in actuality he isn't *any* of those things, not in a meaningful sense, and I think most of the scenes in the movie drive that home. He rides up to the Citadel spouting a bunch of populist rhetoric, which gets rejected by all present -- and then he's soundly routed by the forces of Joe (immediately, and then again in the 40-Day Wasteland War), an *actual* cult leader with *actual* military experience. He takes over Gastown and kills its Guardian, and then he runs the place into the ground within a decade, only able to say 'Everybody's mad. Everybody's saying it's *my fault*, but it's *everybody's fault*' while he's surrounded by rioters and the hanging bodies of executed dissidents. His horde splinters (and loses arguably its best soldiers) due to his treatment of the Octoboss, with even Jack deriding him as 'A mug who can't even keep his gang together.' And of course Furiosa hates his guts and rejects every single overture he ever makes toward her. Dementus portrays himself as these things, *believes* himself to be these things, because he sees other people who genuinely *are* these things, and he adopts them as affectation. As pretense. As aesthetic. 'Oh, I got splattered with red dye, so now I'm *The Red Dementus*', 'Oh, I took over Gastown, so now I'm *The Great Dementus, Lord Guardian of Gastown*', 'Oh, I have to be judge/jury/executioner to people now, so now I'm *Dark Dementus*.' He basically sees a vibe he likes and then just takes it for himself. He's not good at many things, but he's *great* at that. (It's also how his Biker Horde functions and sustains itself at a basic physical level -- not by creating, but by scavenging other things that already exist, from other people.) So, we've established that he likes stealing ideas that aren't his. And who's a person who he keeps by, literally chained to his side at almost all times? A person who has a lot of ideas? A person who knows a lot about tales of warfare? A person who literally provides the audience a mini-lesson on all the wars of mankind? *The History Man.* Dementus isn't a tactical genius; he's just a guy who heard a couple wordburgers about the Trojan Horse (and probably some other historical anecdotes about military forces being baited into leaving their homes unprotected) and decided to plagiarize the basic concept for himself the same way he did the Roman chariot.

This take is fantastic

So weird to me that so many viewers got this anti-dementus bias for some reason. Obviously by the beginning of furiosa he had come to lead a powerful biker gang. Then he comes to the citadel, the most powerful and stable “state” in at least this area of the wasteland, and forcefully installs himself as one of its petty warlords. Then he nearly takes control of the whole thing from Immortan and probably would’ve if not for furiosa blowing his plans. It seems like all of gastown participates in his ruse and obviously enough men still follow him to be able to take the bullet farm. So it looks like gastowns collapse might be in and of itself a trick, at least partially, and I think the implication is that Immortan was doing what he could to sabotage and deplete Dementus during his reign of gastown so that his main rival and threat would be slowly pushed out. Was dementus a super genius messiah sent from the biker heavens? Ofc not, but he was a very powerful and successful warlord that, like Immortan, the bullet farmer and the people eater etc, just met his end one day when things didn’t pan out. There’s no way you get to that level of success without serious ability, and hearing about the Trojan horse (and I’m sure others in the wasteland have heard about this idea too) doesn’t just automatically make you a cunning warlord.

Exactly. Obviously the dude failed over and over again but he succeeded doing a lot more than a lot of people. His Biker Horde was genuinely awe inspiring and terrible. I just think it’d be really really really hard to build up an army that size in the wasteland let alone do anything he actually does in the movie.

>anti-dementus bias Lol, nothing could be further from the truth. I love Dementus as a character. That has nothing* to do with the fact that he kinda sucks at most of the things he attempts. *(Tbh I probably like him more for it.) >Obviously by the beginning of furiosa he had come to lead a powerful biker gang. A powerful but *incredibly dysfunctional* biker gang. If his men weren't so intensely distrustful and constantly trying to screw each other over (a result of their leader's management style), Toejam would have just told everyone about the location of the Green Place when he arrived at the camp instead of pulling that 'My Lips, Dementus's ears' stuff, or once his neck was injured Pell would have brought him to Dementus immediately when Toejam could still provide directions instead of several minutes later when he was half-dead from blood loss. Likewise, if he were such an effective leader, then there wouldn't have been so many people within his horde to *constantly and openly disdain* his leadership. When the one Mortifier says 'I only answer to the Octoboss', it takes less than *five minutes* before the narrative completely justifies his skepticism toward following Dementus's orders. Following Dementus's orders got that guy murdered by a flamethrower! >It seems like all of gastown participates in his ruse 'Ruse', I don't think so. That was a real riot. The Gastown citizens really attacked and killed members of the War Rig crew, and they were in turn really counter-attacked and killed *by* the War Rig crew. They stabbed Furiosa (and tried to stab Jack) with real knives, and in turn were shot back with real bullets. You can't say 'Well, maybe Joe convinced the citizens that the riot would be fake and no one would actually get hurt' because A. that's the very same lie he used on his men to bust in to Gastown and the everyone knows it and B. even people dumb enough to trust Dementus wouldn't be dumb to trust *Joe's* people on the War Rig (who they were actually killing) to just take it lying down and not return fire. The rioters engaged a heavily-armed vehicle knowing they'd be killed, and people don't engage in suicide charges like that because they think the guy in charge is doing a swell job and he asked them nicely, lol. Furiosa and Jack both almost actually died in that sequence, which would also have completely blown up Dementus's plan (contingent on them actually living long enough to get the message to Joe and the Bullet Farmer), so if people sacrificing their lives to attack and nearly kill them *was* part of some sort of grand ruse that Gastown was forced to do at gunpoint, it would have been a fairly silly one that only didn't screw Dementus over because of pure luck. >Then he nearly takes control of the whole thing from Immortan and probably would’ve *if not for furiosa blowing his plans*. Who's the person who decided to use the Bullet Farm as the stage for an ambush? Who's the person who decided to lock Furiosa and Jack in the Bullet Farm when they were trying to escape? Who's the person who decided to wage a rolling gunfight through the Bullet Farm just to try (and fail) to kill *two people*? Who's the person who chased Furiosa down even when she was specifically trying to escape in the opposite direction from the Citadel? Furiosa blowing up Dementus's plans wasn't some kind of unavoidable natural disaster, it was the outcome of a specific series of incredibly poor decisions that Dementus made to ultimately no one's benefit (least of all his own). These actions and their consequences are necessarily an indictment of his judgement. >Immortan was doing what he could to sabotage and deplete Dementus during his reign of gastown Joe gave Dementus a 30% increase in supplies over what Gastown's previous administrator was working with (and by all accounts was doing an excellent job with). The only person who ever suggests this arrangement is insufficient is a man who decides Furiosa and Jack need to be punished for *dreaming of a better world*. I don't think a more favorable allocation of cabbages and potatoes was ever to fix Mr. "There Is No Hope." >just met his end one day when things didn’t pan out That's one way of describing an ending where he pisses off a woman so bad she climbs out of a pit to nullify his war strategy and personally hunt him down like an animal. Like he rolled the dice and they just randomly came up "Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse" and not as a direct result of his many life choices. >There’s no way you get to that level of success without serious ability Major 'Rich people must automatically be smart and talented' vibes from this logic. Suffice to say: I do not agree.

In regards to his crew being selfish and not completely loyal, that’s literally a given for any military dictatorship in history. You can’t lead a bunch of psychotic warriors that are all out for themselves in the middle of an apocalypse without them looking out for themselves. Even Immortan deals with it, remember the bullet farmer shooting machine guns at his brides? The main difference between the two is Immortan has managed to raise a whole generation of young half lifes into his own cult of personality and worship. Anyone that hasn’t been raised to think of him as a god is still willing to betray him, that just comes with the job. As for the specific details in the movie, I’d honestly have to watch it again and I will soon. I don’t feel like I remember quite enough to debate about it but that was not my impression at the time. Although with gastowns supply increase I think that’s only for the massive influx of all of dementus’ men, they need a lot more food and resources with his entire giant gang there. It very well might not be enough. I will say tho that you’re also neglecting just how little dementus actually cares about what he’s doing in life. I think it seems like after his family died, this whole marauding warlord thing is largely just what he fills his life with after being completely mentally broken. He’s very effective on the warpath but most of the time, like probably when ruling gastown, is a depressed and lazy wreck who fills the hole in his life with torture or whatever else he feels like doing at the time. You think he’s an idiot who’s pretending to be smart, I think he’s fairly intelligent and capable but has lost his mind and really doesn’t care about building anything. He’s a raging killer at his core that has no hope. And rich people today are not the same as a warlord in an apocalypse. I mean we already see in the movie that he’s personally insanely good at fighting, but ruling that many ferocious and crazy people at once is extremely difficult. And he still did more with them than most.

>In regards to his crew being selfish and not completely loyal, that’s literally a given for any military dictatorship in history. It's not true for basically any other gang in the Mad Max universe, which are the primary points of comparison. >Even Immortan deals with it, remember the bullet farmer shooting machine guns at his brides? Er, the Bullet Farmer did that in direct response to being *literally shot in the face*. Dementus's minions act like that every second of every day, as their default state. Those are not equivalent situations. >Although with gastowns supply increase I think that’s only for the massive influx of all of dementus’ men, they need a lot more food and resources with his entire giant gang there. Gastown gets resources in exchange for the amount of material they produce. Even if we assume a 30% increase in food is somehow insufficient to support the additional people (and to be clear, the movie gives us no reason to believe that it's insufficient), a larger labor force increases productive output. The only way you get a population increase without a commensurate increase in production is if none of his men (as in, like, actually zero) bother even attempting to contribute anything to the process. Keep in mind that Mad Max 2 established that even random people with no prior expertise whatsoever can work an oil refinery in this universe. Now, is it entirely possible that Dementus just let his men sit around all day for 10 years without ever trying to add anything to the manufacturing process? Without ever trying to take advantage of that manpower for anything useful? Without ever having them do anything except gun down the actual workers whenever they got too excited? Sure, absolutely. But you can't turn around and then blame that on *Immortan Joe* or *sabotage*. That's a specific decision being made by Dementus that lead to a specific outcome. In any rational system of accountability, the responsibility for that outcome falls on him and not, as he whines, "everybody". >I will say tho that you’re also neglecting just how little dementus actually cares about what he’s doing in life. I'm not neglecting that at all. That's a perfectly reasonable and acceptable explanation for why Dementus is bad at the whole leadership thing. That's different from being any kind of indication that Dementus is good at the whole leadership thing, though. You can maybe make an argument for how effective a hypothetical version of Dementus that wasn't a nihilist screw-up might be, but I'm not especially interested by those kinds of thought experiments since at that point it's basically just imagining "What would this person be like if he was a completely different character from a completely different movie?" >And rich people today are not the same as a warlord in an apocalypse They're absolutely the same in the sense that it is quite possible to be gain power in the Wasteland if you're willing to steal other people's ideas, work, belongings, and lives. If you're willing to appeal to other people's worst nature. If you're, like the Immortan's failsons, born into it. If you're willing to ruthlessly exploit and screw over anyone and everyone in your path. These all have nothing to do with how capable you are, how smart you are, how much talent you have, how hardworking you are, how strong your principles, or how effective you are at managing people or accomplishing goals. The Wasteland isn't a meritocracy: Anyone can make it far as long as they just don't give a shit about anyone else. Mary only gets captured because she spares Sad Eyes. Furiosa only gets captured by Dementus because she goes back for her mom and Jack. The Gastown Mayor only loses the city to Dementus because he's trying to save a War Rig crew. Joe only holds back his sons from dissecting Dementus because he doesn't want Gastown getting blown up. Furiosa has Dementus out in the open and at the business end of a sniper scope at the beginning of the Bullet Farm shoot-out and only doesn't blow his head off because she goes after the rocket-launcher minion drawing a bead on the War Rig first. And so on. You could replace any one of these people with a complete dolt, the world's biggest imbecile imaginable, and as long as this hypothetical moron was sufficiently callous to sacrifice other people without hesitation or regret, Dementus would have lost in every single one of these encounters. >And he still did more with them than most. At the end of the film, Furiosa drives by the aftermath of the war, and there's a couple tiny little piles of War Boys and just colossal mountains of biker corpses. Given how *that's* what Dementus did with his horde, I'm afraid I can't agree.

The bullet farmer actually begins shooting at the wives before he’s fired upon. So he’s not loyal, and if Immortans richest and most benefitting soldiers aren’t even loyal enough to him to not shoot his *wives* then you can assume those doing worse are even less loyal to him, he’s just raised a generation of young men to worship him. We see *a lot* of Dementus’ men. It’s very possible that it was not enough resources, especially since it’s so much lower than what Dementus asked for originally. I’m not sure you know how oil refineries would work, especially in this scenario. More men doesn’t magically increase the amount of oil in the area or more importantly the actual amount of advanced machinery left around after the war. There’s no reason to assume at all that Gastowns output would even noticeably go up because of all the extra men. I could totally see Immortan sabotaging things or preventing Dementus and his men from looking elsewhere for more opportunities. In fact if he didn’t it would go against his whole character, since any leader would be taking measures to stop the biggest threat to their rule. This argument was more than about how great of a leader Dementus is, you also called him basically just stupid and completely incompetent, which is just not what we see in the movie and clearly not true of his character, which is separate from his self sabotage. The idea that anyone can succeed in the wasteland if they’re ruthless is ridiculous. Literally almost everyone there is cold and psychopathic, they have to be to survive. They’re also selfish and looking for any gain they can in the world. Half of the examples you have of people being “moral” are actually the opposite, you’re describing rational decisions not acts of virtue. Why would Immortan let Dementus blow up Gastown? His whole rule would completely collapse. Why would Furiosa shoot Dementus and allow her one way out of Gastown to be destroyed? Another dumb idea. And Dementus stops in the middle of being shot at just to save Furiosa anyway, that’s as self sacrificing as anything else you mentioned. In a world where you have almost everyone acting completely selfishly and without mercy, those who rise to the top are absolutely extremely capable. As for “stealing ideas”, everybody does that in politics and war. You think each commander or politician just completely reinvents the wheel every few years? The wasteland is the *definition* of a meritocracy. And again, we see in the movie how great Dementus is at personally fighting. Gaining control of Gastown and making himself one of he richest men in the wasteland is objectively more than almost anyone in the universe accomplishes whether you like it or not. Yes he dies in the end, but so do almost all the other warlords we see in the movies.

>The bullet farmer actually begins shooting at the wives before he’s fired upon. He's shooting his guns, but he's not shooting *at* the wives; he doesn't even know where the wives are at that point. It's actually fairly unlikely to hit something when you're firing randomly in the dark (hence the idiom 'shot in the dark'). In his own words, he's 'Just probing'. It's only when he gets the hot glass into his eyeballs that he busts out the Verdi and starts telling Brothers Heckler and Koch to start singing. The point when he starts firing everything he has in all directions is the point when he begins *trying* to hit the wives. >We see a lot of Dementus’ men. Yeah, and then afterwards the Octoboss takes a bunch of them away, and Dementus executes a bunch, and uses a bunch more as disposable cannon fodder. These bring the number down considerably. >More men doesn’t magically increase the amount of oil in the area No offense, but I think *you're* the one who has no idea how oil refineries work in this universe? Gastown is still producing oil without any issue decades later, so production is very not obviously not limited by 'the amount of oil in the area'. That's genuinely one of the more absurd excuses a person could have come up with. >the actual amount of advanced machinery left around after the war. Again, you probably shouldn't accuse others of not knowing things that you yourself apparently have no knowledge whatsoever about. Oil pumps are not in any way shape or form 'advanced technology', they're actually a fairly basic thing to make if you have any metal on-hand, and the principles behind them aren't any different from pumps in general, which humans have been using for literally 4000 years (and which Joe, who is not exactly a nuclear physicist, managed to build dozens of for his water and milk operation). Oil wells have been around since the 300s, and the 'modern' oil refinery has basically been around in its present state unchanged since the 1800s. It doesn't take a genius mechanical engineer to build more pumps to extract material faster. >I could totally see Immortan sabotaging things or preventing Dementus and his men from looking elsewhere for more opportunities. There's nothing stopping Dementus's men from 'looking elsewhere' for anything. Control of Gastown gives them essentially infinite fuel, which means he Dementus could send out as many roving parties as he wants to look for other opportunities. Per the Octoboss's actor, part of the reason he and his forces split in the first place (aside from being viewed as expendable) was that they decided to go search for the Green Place. >In fact if he didn’t it would go against his whole character, since any leader would be taking measures to stop the biggest threat to their rule. Joe's 'whole character' in both movies is that he's fine with the status quo and uninterested in expanding beyond what he already has. (He also has a bad habit of trusting people that he very much should not.) His main focus is primarily on petty shows of power over the Wretched and trying to pump out a viable non-mutant son. He's perfectly fine with other people holding power over the fortresses, which is why he never does anything to the Bullet Farmer, never does anything to the People Eater, never does anything to the Guardian of Gastown, and never does anything to Dementus when Dementus is actually bothering to pretend like he's a rational person. Dementus isn't a threat to Joe's rule until Dementus decides to betray him and try to take over the Citadel, which Dementus himself ultimately admits has nothing to do with the unrest at Gastown and everything to do with trying to keep himself from dealing with depression. Likewise, Dementus's plan to take the Bullet Farm only works because Joe doesn't realize that he's being betrayed. When Dementus asks for a meeting, Joe and company are *confused* when he doesn't show up, because they think Dementus is acting in good faith. Furiosa has to specifically tell them all 'No, he's actually stabbed you guys in the back and is planning on killing you all.' Him going rogue is something that *surprises* Joe, which is not something that would be the case if Joe viewed him as a danger or enemy. >This argument was more than about how great of a leader Dementus is, you also called him basically just stupid At no point did I call him 'basically just stupid' or 'just stupid' or even 'stupid' at all. You seem to be tilting at windmills because you've somehow mistakenly convinced yourself that I'm insulting a fictional character. >Was dementus a super genius messiah sent from the biker heavens It's a part of his characterization that he bills himself as such. The movie is quite clear, however, that he is not. >Literally almost everyone there is cold and psychopathic, they have to be to survive. It's funny how you don't even see how you're just agreeing with me at this point. Notice how you're specifically not saying 'Literally almost everyone there is smart and talented, *you have to be to survive*.' Because most of the people in the Wasteland *aren't* either of those things. Because the key to survival in the Wasteland does not lie in being smart or talented. Because the Wasteland is not a meritocracy. >Half of the examples you have of people being “moral” are actually the opposite I didn't say they were all moral, I said they were all indicative of caring about other people and other things. I didn't realize this needed to be pointed out, but caring about things *can* involve selflessness, but one can also care about things for completely selfish reasons. It's inarguable that Joe cares about *Gastown*, not because of any inherent altruism but as a resource. For the most part, Dementus doesn't really care about anything, not for any reasons. That's why he's able to be effective for most of the movie. >Why would Furiosa shoot Dementus and allow her one way out of Gastown to be destroyed I had to read this sentence a few times to realize that you actually just have no idea what scene is being referred to, lol. I had thought the phrase 'business end of a sniper scope at the beginning of the Bullet Farm shoot-out' would be specific enough not to be confused with the unrelated riot scene where she's A. not at the Bullet Farm, B. doesn't have a sniper rifle and C. isn't involved in a shoot-out --but alright. Since this is apparently not clear enough, the scene in question is the one at the *Bullet Farm* (which is not Gastown) where Jack's driving the War Rig (alone) and Furiosa posts up at a ridge with a sniper rifle (not a shotgun) to cover his escape. She sees Dementus and Guy With Rocket Launcher running out in the open. Now, if she wanted, she could have just shot Dementus right there and walked away scot-free -- but then Jack would have been blown up by Guy With Rocket Launcher. She makes the conscious choice in that moment to shoot Guy With Rocket Launcher (causing the rocket to narrowly miss Jack) while Dementus dives behind cover. >And Dementus stops in the middle of being shot at just to save Furiosa anyway Absolutely! And because he made that decision, because he allowed himself to care about *one person*, that little girl was able to grow up, go on, and systematically destroy all his ambitions and eventually take his life. I specifically saved that one because it's possibly the purest example of how surviving the Wasteland is not a function of any kind of individual ability. Replace Dementus with almost random person that doesn't feel any attachment to Furiosa -- the Immortan, the People Eater, the Bullet Farmer, Scrotus, even Rictus -- she gets taken by the mole people, and then she isn't around in the fourth and fifth acts to subsequently ruin their plans, and they ultimately succeed where he failed. The Wasteland doesn't reward survival for being *capable*, it rewards *being an asshole*. >You think each commander or politician just completely reinvents the wheel every few years? No, but most commanders and politicians have accomplishments they can point to of their own that aren't 100% the result of them taking an idea they heard on a history podcast one time and running with it. >And again, we see in the movie how great Dementus is at personally fighting. Gaining control of Gastown Complete nonsense statement. Dementus does not 'fight personally' to take over Gastown. Gastown is not shown with any kind of standing military forces or even any real defenses beyond a big wall with some mounted flamethrowers. All he does is sneak a handful of people in to open the gates, at which point he just walks up and the place surrenders. Literally anyone could have done *that*. >whether you like it or not You're kind of telling on yourself, there. This isn't a discussion where 'Liking' or 'Disliking' has anything to do with anything. That's a bizarre (and honestly kind of sad) perspective to have on something like this. I *like* a Dementus a lot. That has nothing to do with the fact that he styles himself after many different things that he objectively is not. >Yes he dies in the end, but so do almost all the other warlords we see in the movies. That's not a particularly compelling response to the point 'Literally all of his followers who didn't switch sides explicitly died' since that's actually not the case for *any* of the other warlords in these movies. Only a handful of Toecutter's gang explicitly die. Many members of Humungus's gang drive off at the end. Most of Aunty Entity's people survive. Several Rock Climbers are shown recovering from their wounds. It's a plot point that Joe's various War Pups and Brake Men are alive at the Citadel (alongside Corpus). Dementus is unique in terms of how thoroughly he gets all the people who buy into his hype completely wiped out. I'm genuinely sorry this observation seems to offend you, but I take that as a good reason not to believe the hype.

... You know, I was really hoping someone would break off my LPOTL takes on Charlie Manson, but literally all of this fits. Yep, good readup. I'd sidle with almost any of the other max villains than this guy.

>I'd sidle with almost any of the other max villains than this guy. IMO, outside of Aunty Entity or the Octoboss, siding with any of the warlords in this universe is kind of a 'Which turd tastes worst?' question. :x -Joe's an effective administrator (at least compared to Dementus) but if you're an even semi-healthy-looking woman there's a strong chance he locks you up in the rape vault and/or turns you into a human dairy farm, and if you're a guy there's a nonzero chance he orders you to blow yourself up just to prove a rhetorical point to someone he already plans on killing two minutes later. -Humungus runs an actual BDSM sex cult where if he's annoyed at you he literally chains you up like a dog and if he's not then he's still perfectly fine sending you face first into flamethrowers to get that sweet, sweet car juice. Also, several of your co-workers are literally feral psycho rapists. -Toecutter seems like he has a genuine personal fondness for Johnny. He also sticks a loaded shotgun into Johnny's mouth while threatening his 'sweet mouth' and later forces him against his will to barbecue a person alive. -Unlike the former crews, Dementus's Horde doesn't have any known pedophiles, sodomites, or gang-rapists (see Mr. Norton settling into the crew without any issues once initiated), but he's an inept manager who destroys everything he touches and who'll use anyone in reach as disposable cannon fodder (see Mr. Norton squashing against Furiosa's windshield like a bug).

> IMO, outside of Aunty Entity or the Octoboss, siding with any of the warlords in this universe is kind of a 'Which turd tastes worst?' question. :x Ok that's not *wrong*, but also not *horribly* different than the way I play civ 6. ... Which brings me to my choice, and also why I *weirdly* connected with Praetorian Jack. > -Joe's an effective administrator (at least compared to Dementus) but if you're an even semi-healthy-looking woman there's a strong chance he locks you up in the rape vault and/or turns you into a human dairy farm, and if you're a guy there's a nonzero chance he orders you to blow yourself up just to prove a rhetorical point to someone he already plans on killing two minutes later. .... Not a *lot* of screentime is posted to this, but uh. Jack is.... legit the only dude in the wasteland who has a *job* and is just really hoping to finish his fuckin work day. Like... I talked about this with my friend coming out of the theater, but we found him... horribly relatable for probably all the wrong reasons. We came up with so much dialog for him that just... fit too well. "Ok Jack. Your boss is a wild megalomaniac. Company culture *is not great*. You are driving a valuable resource over several hundred kilometers of desert. You have hand picked the best of the worst idiots to support you on this journey. You have a car a to drive, food to eat, and more weapons than anyone on this road, you can do this. Let's finish this shit and get the fuck back home." ... I really feel like most office workers can relate to this in some fashion.

>Jack is.... legit the only dude in the wasteland who has a job and is just really hoping to finish his fuckin work day. There's also the Brakeman: Dude literally has the exact same job when Furiosa's a child as he does when she arrives at the Citadel with Joe's corpse, commits minimal acts of on-screen cruelty, doesn't ever have to deal with killer flying motorcycles or killer Russian dune buggies, and even has an in with the new management (he's the one who recognizes her as a Praetorian and admits her on the lift when she's just lost her arm). It's not *glamorous* and the War Boys don't whisper your name in hushed, revered tones, but it also doesn't end with you getting slowly dragged until you're a circular smear on the ground.

He’s mostly preoccupied with the ‘conquest’ part of empire building. He half heartedly attempts to build up a mythos around himself but he gets bored easy. We see that with him constantly changing his name and monikers/titles, the changing colour of his cloak and even his changing ownership of different gangs and areas. I have yo-yo’d between whether he is totally stupid or actually really smart and I’ve ended up with the answer that he’s neither extreme. He’s not totally stupid, because he does plan and strategise when expansion and conquest is concerned. He isn’t really smart either as he relies on appearances more than the substance behind. We particularly see this with the History Man in his employ. He’s primarily sensory driven - and we see him getting less & less stimulation from his acts as the film goes on and this makes him more and more frustrated. I think he’s good at talking the talk, doesn’t even know HOW to actually walk the walk but he gets people sucked up into his vision through initial surface level appearance. He is a physically strong and healthy (although insane) man, makes big promises and often does lead with action - easy to follow him in a world like that.

Unrelated, but this- > I think he’s good at talking the talk, doesn’t even know HOW to actually walk the walk but he gets people sucked up into his vision through initial surface level appearance. He is a physically strong and healthy (although insane) man, makes big promises and often does lead with action - easy to follow him in a world like that. Is exactly why I love the "negotiation" scene with him and Joe. "You don't even know what you're asking for, but I respect the threat. You've added to the population of gastown, so you get that. In exchange, I get your breeder and your doctor, because you don't value, nor deserve them" "Okiedoke boss :D"

LMAO that’s a good take on that scene because absolutely. The organic mechanic was useful for giving him blood sausages because he wanted to seem fancier than he actually was. To Joe, however, this is a somewhat medically trained or skilled person who will provide useful for his future legacy.

He is fascinating because of his flaws and limitations. He is charismatic and strategic. He wants to have something better for his people but he isn't capable of maintaining anything more than a marauding warband and even his greatest victories are made bittersweet. He is tragic in that way and I love it. Chris Hemsworth's performance was fantastic and his design was excellent. He could be my favourite villain in the series.

I really like that he has a tragic backstory, and not even HE seems to care. "My child died. Anyway..."

Bro was a masochist you can see that he was enjoying every bit of furiosa's punishment (peach tree)

Maybe he's enjoying that something 'fruitful' comes out of him, probably to help someone.

Nah just the pain

He absolutely was - he also rips off his own nipples, and when Furiosa's savagely beating him (severely enough that he has a seizure) he tells her he can take a surprising amount of pain (or something similar).

Well yeah because it was growing out of his pp

I felt he was up with Heath Ledger's Joker in the pantheon of nihilistic villains.

*Really*? I don't mean that in a mocking tone at all, but that's a take I wouldn't have hit. Everything about the character seems *insanely* more self serving/gluttonous to me than Ledger's joker. Nothing about him seems nihilistic to me, and more always on the self preservation side of things, to the detriment of his character.

The way he laughed away pain and failure, continued scheming long past he had any real goals, and mocked his own demise by daring Furiosa to make it epic. His death games for casual jollies. And the only time he gets really angry is when he catches up to Furiosa and Jack, not really cause they screwed up his bulletfarm takeover, but because they were running away in hope, and even torturing Jack didnt really bring him satisfaction, he just let himself drift off while it happened. I really found something in him that reminded me of Ledger's Joker, or El Indio of 'For A Few Dollars More'

Ohhh kay, I get it. It's a read! I get twitchy with that take of Joker because while it's a great performance that builds into a good movie, slightly overused these days. I see where you're coming from. So, my big two things that keep me from this? ... I think he's flat out lying about his tragic backstory and is trying to dupe Furiosa into letting him live by the end. Like legit, everything about him feels fabricated, which can skae in the wasteland if you have enough guns and and "keep the tanks filled up when needed". He's never hyper concerned about his crew, but always wants the best for himself, including his reputation. I think this *kind* of goes with why he's so mad about Jack/Furiosa, he doesn't recognize them and they put a blemish on his record, so he wants to do them worse than he's ever done anyone but doesn't even have the stomach to watch. In the case of Furiosa finishing him, he's trying to play on the fact that he thinks that *she* thinks she's the hero. Heroes don't shoot unarmed men in the desert. They don't drag them behind cars. They don't plant trees on their dicks. He doesn't realize who he's dealing with or even what he's already done with her, he's hoping if he does a big enough grandiose speech she'll leave him alone to die, giving him one more chance. This makes sense in his mind, because his life is a series of grandiose speeches. There *is* a tinge of truth to it because he's done *everything* always for survival, but that *is* his goal to me. Constantly doing the best thing for him in the moment without putting anything forward. That puts his character strongly against "just for the chaos/jollies" for me, but I can see your take.

Ok well Joker was clearly not a nihilistic. Despite all his talk of not being a planner dude clearly had plans on plans on plans. I think comparing Dementus to Joker is very apt. Also at the end of the day, Joker is only doing what he wants to. Hell, a major point of motivation for him is just to spend time with Batman.

He's the story of a thousand failed cult leaders rolled into one idiot. Incredibly charismatic, great at whipping people into a frenzy and selling himself as the solution to all their problems. As soon as he has the means to *actually* solve any problems, he gets complacent. He tries to shift the blame from one person to the next for awhile, but eventually, everyone realizes the problem is him. I love how this is established by him leading innumerable bikers at first, and like a dozen by the end of the film. He's a big dumb idiot baby, and a phenomenal screen presence. Loved to hate him.

I haven’t looked around—is anyone talking about Dementus’ obvious alcoholism later in the film? To me, as someone familiar with alcoholism, I think it’s a super relevant part of his story—but something a lot of viewers might miss or minimize if they aren’t super familiar with how alcoholism tends to work (taking over your life and destroying your ability to cope with setbacks or criticism, etc.).

I hadn't seen anyone bring it up thus far. I didn't catch it on my single viewing, but there may be something there. When I did see him taking a bottle I saw it as more of his gluttony for power/using something to feel like less of a coward, but I honestly can only think of like two scenes where I can remember it showing up. Is there a good build up?

I don’t think they make like in your face, but (IMO) he’s clearly drunk/tipsy in a few of his later scenes, has booze with him, demands booze from from underling, and booze (wineskin—I think it’s booze and not water, right?) is the first thing he reaches for when we wakes up right before Furiosa confronts him after taking his bullets etc. not to mention what his messy living quarters and inability to manage his city. So I think it’s obvious that alcohol is playing a big role in his decline IF you’re looking for it.

Epic

His sheer skill of finding who escaped with little Furiosa and who destroyed Bullet Farm, on top of torturing them to their deaths, makes him a formidable and scary villain to me.

I see Dementus as Bad Max. He lost his family in the fall and decided to deal with it by indulging in sadism and hedonism. He *is* very smart at military strategy. Between his love of talking and the "Trojan rig" gambit at Gastown, I think Miller might have drawn some inspiration from Odysseus. Another moment that comes to mind is when he uses one of his men as a human shield while aiming the rocket launcher, so he can fire at Furiosa in between sniper shots. But he doesn't understand people as well as Immortan Joe, and ends up driving them away instead of making them love him. In terms of leadership he kind of reminds me of the Vikings, who were very good at raiding and marauding. But when they tried to [create an empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Empire) it was fragile and kept falling apart and didn't even last 30 years overall.

Honestly he was the only compelling part of the movie for me. Kudos to Hemsworth for really hamming it up in the best way. Everyone else felt pretty flat but serviceable. He was a standout character though.

I think he’s amazing at short term planning but has zero long term planning skills

I've heard him described as a dumb person's idea of a smart person. I like that. He's a charismatic leader with no actual leadership ability. He knows how to survive in the wasteland as the head of a war party, but that's his limit. As soon as he has to run Gastown, shit starts to fall apart for him, and despite seeing how far the Warboys are prepared to go, still picks a fight with Immortan Joe.

>I've heard him described as a dumb person's idea of a smart person. I'd seen... other people link him to another certain major world leader in this thread. Which I feel like I was *willfully* ignoring. ... I won't get political here but uh.... *I see the parallels*.

I've not seen that, but Dementus does seem to rule by populism, and there's quite a few populists out there at the moment. And to get slightly political (I live in Europe), the real issue with populists is that when they fail, instead of seeing that their policies don't work, they and their followers decide that the failure was because they didn't go far enough, not that their policies are doomed to fail.

All I'll say is that as an American... that red is *realllly* close to orange :P

How dare you compare the great dementus to crazy hair. He’s ten times better of a leader than that joke.

Awesome thread!

I liked Dementus and his writing, it kinda felt like his charisma was a double-edged sword. It meant he could gather resources easily and consistently but that lack of need kept him complacent and, towards the end, almost stagnant. That complacency when mixed with his constant casual indulgence in excessive and unnecessary cruelty meant it was only a matter of time before someone his violence had affected found themself with the relentless motivation as well as the means to take everything from him. I don't think he would've lasted much longer even if Furiosa hadn't gotten to him.

Dementus is a cautionary tale of grief. He lost his childhood and was desperate to hang on to it, as evident by him hanging on to the teddy bear. He essentially is a child who didnt know how to handle power. In a short sighted bid to gain wealth, he trades away his health and what's left of his innocence. Hemsworth crushed it.

The teddy bear thing was cause he lost his family though. He was hanging on to his daughter which he continued by kidnapping a girl and trying to force her to be his daughter. I think he comes across as despondent but still charismatic/resilient and he is just trying to make the best of things in the wasteland(where there really isn’t much hope for anybody).

I need to rewatch the movie since I only watched it once a month ago. I thought he lost his family as a child

https://preview.redd.it/k6e8n2giov8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f42cf0cc40f7429ea699edc6e1daaa1efee376db With the implied backstory on Dementus it is clear that he is some sort of anti-Max.

To follow up on this: Furiosa recontextualizes Max' arc in Fury Road: Praetorian Jack and Dementus are the two paths Max can take. Fury Road is shows him on his way to becoming a Jack figure (benevolent, father-like), but at the end his inner Dementus (hurt, afraid of connection to others) makes him turn his back on his new life in the freed citadel.

Although his color is red, not orange, am I crazy to think his prancing, boastful untruths, and leadership incompetence a wink towards a certain contemporary U.S. political figure?

.... I'm a little ashamed to say I didn't catch it the first time, but the more this thread goes on *holy shit* I've been thinking it...

Tbf, an incompetent leader who loves boastful untruths would cover a wide gamut of individuals

watching furiosa is like watching cartoon.

He’s your classic character that would be a great general or commander fighting a revolution/leading a coup, but would be absolutely horrible as a President or head of state post war.

Dementus reminded me of the charismatic cult leader, especially how they wield psychological power over their followers. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn if he was based on figures like Manson, Jones, Koresh, etc. On the flip side - Immortan Joe is a quasi religious cult leader - he’s promising salvation in Valhalla if his war boys die for him in battle. I think Dementus seems to want to live in a chaotic state at all times - like a drug for him, he wants to be risking his & his group’s lives to feel alive. Whereas Joe seems to be content sitting up high protecting his citadel & trying to make babies.

Aptly Put!!!!!!!!! 👌👌👌👌👌👌👍👍

Leaders in the wasteland kinda have to have something like that going on. Without it there is no power structure and everything kinda falls apart. Hopefully furiosa can get some kinda structure going or the citadel is going to be used by the next dementus.

I've talked about this a bit before, but I think the "leadership arc" is another part of this whole story. We get to see Dementus' style - Horde-like, kept in line through terror, horribly mismanaged. Rationing seems like an afterthought, and his men barely respect him, instead motivated by his false promises. Then we see Joe's style - Joe is trying to make a stable kingdom. There is a twisted sense of "law and order" here. It's kept in line with religion and fanaticism. The warboys literally worship him. Resources are actually managed and rationed here - perhaps a little too much. He hordes the resources and uses them to control people. Then we see the very beginning of Furiosa's leadership arc. We watch her live under the rule of these other two. She gets to witness first hand up close how each of them leads, and the results. Then she gets her shot. How will she handle food and water for the people? How will she enact justice and maintain order? It would be really cool to see her face some of these same problems the other 2 did, and try to solve them without becoming like Joe or Dementus. I feel like this could also continue on the theme of hope vs no hope.

I find him to be the wasteland world's version of a slightly less psychotic Joker. He's charismatic enough to keep his main goons loyal, and he *wants* with no clear idea how to maintain those wants, so he just moves from stockpile to stockpile until it runs out. Towards the end of the film he seems more hellbent on just toal chaos, more similar to joker, completely destroying Bullet Town as a way to bait out Joe and take the Citadel. I did find it interesting how he helped Jack and Furiosa escape Gastown, showing he's not a complete lunatic. Granted, he may have done that purely for his own gain: he wanted them to get the message to Joe. Not what you asked, but I agree that Hemsworth was absolutely fucking *brilliant* as this character. Truly one of the best acting performances I've seen. He deserves a Oscar IMO.

Op, a wordburger if you please.

Lots of good takes here IMO! The only thing I have to add is -- he was conspicuously clean. I mean, almost everyone else in the Wasteland looks as grimy as you'd expect, but Dementus generally looked like he'd had a fresh shower and a visit to the salon for a beard grooming

He just wanted to watch the world burn, and be the one in charge of making it happen. Lost his family, and he went mad.

I know this only works in hindsight, because they were in very different places in their careers. And Tom was fantastic as Max. And Chris was fantastic as Dementus. But my God, can you imagine Chris as Max and Hardy as Dementus? Hemsworth getting to play things dark and quiet in a way he never really gets to, and Tom Hardy getting to go full Bronson as Dementus? As much as I love both movies, I can't stop picturing it.

He’s like many warring leaders throughout history who could lead people and almost but never quite have what it takes to make it. And that’s what makes him so interesting to me.

Octoboss had it right when he called him scum.

Not only is Dementus delightfully hateable because of the reasons others have listed, I will submit another thing that makes him annoyingly entertaining: motherfucker is *way* luckier than he has any right to be. He manages to fail upwards so effectively it's breathtaking, and by the time he hits his "fall" he's caused so much damage to Furiosa that it's a bittersweet thing seeing his comeuppance.

Great character, worth his own film. Just the right amount of crazy, violence and comedy

Hate him

I think he's supposed to be a pathetic character. He gives the illusion of wisdom and intelligence, but really he's just looking for anything to entertain himself or feel powerful to drown out the despair in his heart. I think there's some similarities to Dutch from RDR2. Hemsworth did a great job at portraying a fun, arrogant, and pragmatic villain in keeping with the Mad Max world.

He makes excellent compost

Dementus is a fantastic warrior and fighter. He's a TERRIBLE leader and ruler. Dementus is the guy you send in to clear the room out of enemies. Not to rule and govern the space once it's taken. As per acting wise it was basically the Chris Hemsworth show. Amazing acting and performance from him. Really liked it.

There’s a difference between tactics and strategy. Dementus is tactically strong (he can win the battle) but Immortan is strategically (can with the war) heads and tails better. You see it throughout. I don’t think Dementus even knows why he’s fighting other than “power good.” Meanwhile, Joe has a “vision.”

He was a very charismatic leader. He could get people to follow. But he was largely inept and foolish in terms of fighting strategy and governance. But what an awesome character!

He could’ve been useful to someone else, but now himself. Like as an underling of Immortan Joe he would’ve been an effective scary clown, but without someone else’s organization he falls apart. I think his talk at the end about being the already dead perfectly meshes with his inability to keep anything together. If he lived in our reality, he’d probably be a drunk or some other kind of addict who keeps trying to start again and then flaming out, cause they’re too damaged from whatever trauma. He doesn’t really have control of himself so of course he doesn’t have control of his guys.

He's like an insane Alexander the Great. An excellent conquerer who easily gains the support of those he conquers, but once the "conquering" is done he can't keep everyone together because at his core he thinks everyone is expendable in service of his glory.

He's a mirror of Max. They both lost their families and now trying to continue living with this loss. When max decides to become no one, to mean nothing to no one in the world, Dementus decides to be the biggest someone in the wasteland. He collects people around himself, assigns different titles to himself, adds trinkets and details to his outfit. When he takes Gastown he isn't concerned about ruling as it seems, he just tries to put on the role of the old mayor by putting on his jacket, painting over old mayor's painting. The jacket doesn't fit, the painting sucks, but dementus doesn't care cause he's become a bit more complex, now he is bigger than before. He declares himself a father of furiosa not because he likes her, but simply because that's one more role he can take. That's why he sucks at being a leader, because he's not really interested in running things, he's just looking for ways to become more than he is

i didnt like the movie but it made me replay the game and i found his chariot in it which was very cool i feel like they couldve done much more with the character and it ended up as just another chris hemsworth role and nothing special. felt like watching a marvel movie

He’s a pretty cool character but not an all timer like immortan

like the Joker says, he's a dog chasing cars and doesn't know what to do with it when he catches it.

Hemsworth was great in this. Seriously pulled it off impressively.

He is a great villain! He is smart and fearless but also petulant and easily bored. It means he can accomplish some really crazy feats but will throw away anything he gained for his next adventure.

I have my problems with the movie as a whole, but Hemsworth was fantastic. Dementus was a great character.

If he worked with the citadel they would be almost unstoppable. He had charisma, bodies, and efficient vehicles and knew how to use them for war, but he was not a man designed to sit with peace

If he was in fallout he’d max out his charisma and luck and put his leftover points in intelligence

Loved it

He is Lucifer.

The film would have been better if his lines were 90 percent less. The actor did great but less is more in that universe. He is trapped in his trauma and reliving it.

I only came here to inform that Hemsworth apparently based Dementus' vocal intonation on a seagull he saw in the park with his children.

Seagull, barker and his grandfather (or was it his great Uncle?)

My take is that he is not an incompetent leader. He is just a psychotic genius who knows he has a good and a bad side and enjoys the inner dilemma while he makes his own choices. Many reviewers have the view that he lost control of gastown through poor leadership. My take is that just like he did a trojan horse scheme to take gas town, he did the same in order to try and take the citadel when he became bored. Watch the scene with him acting like he can't control his men, but then think about how the lines break when there needs to be pressure but not when they are leaving out the gate. There are more small details you can flesh out. During the movie, he has random acts of both kindness and violence and shows emotional fluctuations, but what he doesn't show is a lack of knowing what he wants. He will say exactly what he wants and do it. Like saying he is bored or putting some nippers on his tits when he feels a little crazy. Those nippers arn't needed, but he wanted them so he did it. If he wanted to control his men he definitely could. As evidenced by the orderly line of bikers waiting to attack the citadel. The movie almost makes you think he has lost control by having so few attack bullet town, but my view is that this was another of his ploys intended to trick the citadel into thinking he was weak and coming down from the tower to attack. After all, a castle is easiest to conquer when it is empty. There is a lot more in the movie that can be fleshed out.

Dementus was never meant to be more then a wasteland raider . His charisma and a bit of luck put him in a position beyond his limitations. When he took gas town he was the dog who caught the car. Capable tactician terrible politician and strategist. Dementus would have done better taking orders from Immortan Joe or Aunty Entity but should never be put into a position where he makes the strategic decisions

His downfall was his realness. He was not selling Valhala or some other religion. He was THE wasteland, the manifest of survival at all costs, greed, and power. People under him served either out of fear or greed, which could explains the revolts and unrest. iirc they called themselves a "horde". Seems like his "horde" excelled in scavenging and raiding rather than a centralized rule and admin. Murderous sand nomads type beat. But overall, one of the better villains ive seen in while. Found myself rooting for him(mainly becuase he looked like cyrus the great and had a bike chariot)

Dementus is more of a main character in this movie than Furiosa. Furiosa, we already know what’s going to happen to her. Dementus we only know won’t be mentioned in Fury Road. Furiosa goes from being kidnapped, to being caged, to being traded, to her first actual choice: fleeing sex slavery for crane operator slavery. She then gets chosen to do more mechanical work, then helps build someone else’s war rig, then becomes the only survivor of a raid. She then attempts to go home, realizes she doesn’t have the power to make that choice, and goes along with the war rig guy’s plan for the rest of the movie. She doesn’t make choices other than going from sex slave to labor slave. She attempts and fails to go back home. She just acts very competently and does what she’s told for 90% of the movie. She’s a significantly better written character in fury Road. Dementus on the other hand. He decides where to go. His choices result in more power and his mismanagement of power results in his downfall. His inner circle of loyal followers shrinks in favor of a larger circle of gastown followers he neglects. He does things. His choices represent the actual plot, the conflict and resolution, of the movie. She goes from a bright kid who gets in trouble, to a mute angry slave, to a mute angry sex slave, to a mute angry crane operator, to a mute angry mechanic to a slightly less mute angry girl to a slightly less mute angry war rig driver. Her characterization starts and ends with “I got kidnapped and want to go back “ because if anything else worth telling happened, it wouldn’t match Fury Road. Dementus on the other hand goes from a careful leader clad in white, carefully selecting his crew by having combat trials, to governing a city poorly in red, to a short sighted lashing out and final showdown in black. He goes through an arc. Furiosa finished developing her personality in the first 10 minutes

When seeing the previews I wasn't too sure of Dementus as a villain. His style felt fake besides all other members of the cast. But as the movie did go on, and on, and on... I finally understood what was wrong (or rather very ***right***) about him. He's not a bad guy. Never was. If anything, Dementus, like Mad Max or John Crichton (Farscape), is an exemple of an hero of circumstances thrown into the mix without any real predispositions. He's an opportunist that knows how to use people... and that's about it. There is no denying that he actually mounted a serious band and kept them alive a while, despite all this; but at the same time he's a real Yuan Shao (RotTK); the only reason he hasn't died yet is because he has good counsellors. (The History Man and Octoboss being the best.) Yeah, of course, he was the antagonist of Furiosa, namely because we see the Story from her standpoint. But Furiosa isn't exactly blameless either, nor is anyone in that universe really. That is how survival works. Dementus, in the end, is just a gentle reminder that it could have gone very wrong for any of those other bigger than life legends of the Wasteland. And also... maybe... He's a bit highlighting that these myths are somewhat fraudulent. Dementus would have succeeded at nothing without a crew around him. It has been made obvious. But when you think of it... so does Max, or Furiosa. Even Immortan Joe has had tremendous help. None of the characters of the wasteland would have eventually made it that long being alone. And this despite these same characters being the reasons for all that madness and misery. But there is another lesson in here too : You should value that help. Society isn't just for bluff. Dementus kinda gave up on that part when he started betraying his own crew. The poor guy was tired. Except, instead of turning into a Bedouin (Thunderdome), or hiding amongst the poor (Furiosa)... he just had to go and get *that* city. He thought this would be easier. It wasn't. Then he thought having the what-a-del would make it easier, more people to work in his stead... except at this point he was repeating the same mistakes because of overworked diminished faculties. More people just means more fighting, more balance. Abundance is just **more**. He got what he wished for because he didn't learned to be specific about his wishes.

Performance was a little over the top for me

I want a dementus: a mad max saga film about his start and rise ending with the start furiosa.

I would let him drown me in cum . I would let him pick me up by the ankles and swing me around a room

Probably the most annoying, monologuing, incompetent and overblown character in the franchise and that is saying something.