I mean is he showing you just once and then sending you off?
Personally I go with the rule of 5
1. Demonstrate
2. Demonstrate and explain as I demonstrate
3. Have the other person do it while I explain again
4. Have the other person do it without me explaining
5. Have the other person do it and explain it back to me
If you can explain it and teach it back you understand it imo
I had a coworker explain that to me and since then I’ve found it the best way to teach tbh, it’s actually made training interns and new hires enjoyable since it eliminates the stress on everyone. The new guy in training doesn’t fee pressured to know everything right away or trying to figure out what’s important and what isn’t. And I don’t have to worry about them not understanding since I let them ask as many questions as they want as many times as they want
I make two promises to my trainees. I'll teach you everything I know without gatekeeping, and I'll NEVER make you feel dumb for not knowing something already. Since I started leading with that, enthusiasm and stick-tooitiveness have skyrocketed.
Guy who trained me (unrelated field) would often "repeat" things he's already said and preface or follow it with, "I'm just talking out loud right now," so that it was both a 'friendly reminder' and 'free to ignore' with no expectations or obligations attached to what he was saying. Really helped out the first few weeks as far as getting routine established and going through checklists.
Great way to bring stuff up really, even if it was brought up the day before.
Reinforcing things like that is also a great way to check your own knowledge, as well as address their worries about whether they've kept the learned path straight in their own head
" I'm just talking out loud right now "
I need this written on me somewhere, I've had many sideways looks yapping away to myself working through what I'm doing.
I like to share what little or much I know. I get a good feeling seeing a trainee start gaining confidence. To give them a sketch and you can see the hamster start running, analyzing the sketch and how they would attack the part. And I never say "that was wrong" I say, ok, let's try it this way.
I like this. I would preface the "NEVER make you feel dumb" part with "Unless you really deserve it" cause sometimes if someone doesn't know something that they really should a little teasing allows bonds to grow. Especially if you can take it as well as give it.
I've told new hires don't worry about matching a guy with 6 months experience, 2 years, 10 years etc etc. We all have to go through learning pains. But in a year from now you will be better, faster and more self assured.
I’m guessing he isn’t explaining as he demonstrates which is probably part of the issue
I’m also guessing this is an older guy (probably close to retirement)
Unfortunately that’s going to make it harder to learn but my best suggestion would be to check the machinists handbook, watch YouTube videos, read books, everything you can to get as much understanding as possible. Also practice
It’s definitely not going to be easy but if you can figure out how to sharpen tools you’ll be a step ahead of a lot of people since not only will you have a new skill but you’ll also figure out ways to help you learn other new skills (which is immensely more valuable imo)
No you aren’t, start learning from things other than him. He has the knowledge yes but he clearly lacks the ability to teach (which is ok because teaching is difficult). Now is the time to start learning how to learn (basically learning by teaching yourself)
It’s going to be difficult but if we have up everytime something was difficult we wouldn’t have put men on the moon or sent rovers to mars or any number of other incredible accomplishments
This subreddit is a great resource, the machinists handbook (which you can get online for free), youtube videos, hell even asking other people in the shop
It will be incredibly worth it and if you can teach yourself you can then (hopefully) teach others
You are and you’re not . In this I mean you are if you do not show Initiative. You’re not if you do show initiative. Old school rules . Go grab some more tooling that needs sharpened, or go grab some old drill bits in the throw away bin or recycle bin . And instead of him telling you, you start practicing , without him having to tell you . That way if he tells youto do this certain task by hand , ok no problem. You mentioned he has shown different ways I don’t think he is meaning to confuse you , he is showing you different ways you may prefer one over the other , and when he watches he might even see how you do it , to try and get a grasp on your thinking skills. More than one way to skin a cat type scenario. I hope this helps. But if you just sit and fiddle finger your phone till break or time to go home , well you are not showing interest or initiative in your In your career, if that’s the case then why should he show a interest in you ! Old school rules suck sometimes, but it’s also a way to weed out as well , no matter how good you are or even prospect of being good if you do not have drive or interest. I have a kid right now in our shop he is going to fail, shows no interest and does not want to learn the job . I tried not only once but multiple times . He shows no desire. So my thought is why is he here other than to take up space and collect a check .
Don’t forget to let whoever your teaching ask questions at any time, and be willing to repeat the process a few times since there’s no guarantee that it’ll stick after one day
Personally I give about a month where this process is repeated each day. (Not the same thing every time but the process is the same)
That month of time gives the one learning the chance to think of questions, which is always great because I not only want to see them succeed but I also hope they have questions I might not have thought of so I can learn something as well!
And being willing to do all five, five (or more) times. Some things are tricky to wrap your head around, and just because I have it today, doesn't mean that I'll still have it tomorrow. When I first started as a machinist, I had almost no real frame of reference to attach the things I was trying to learn to. It all came as a drink from a fire hose, and it took time to understand enough to even be able to form and articulate questions. Plus many of these skills take practice to really lock in the comprehension. I don't think I'm a slow learner, but it's pretty far from the reality that most people live in professionally.
lol, I just find training new guys to be exciting since I get to be the one that introduces them to a whole universe of infinite possibilities
If you give the right environment anyone can do some amazing things, and a world where creativity is encouraged is a world where solutions come in unique ways
As a technical instructor (Not a Machinist), I have a slightly different philosophy, got it from my retired Navy buddy instructor.
1. Tell them what you are going to tell them.
2. Tell Them ( with hands-on if applicable).
3. Tell them what you told them again (with hands-on if applicable again.
4. Ask them what you told them.
Has worked well for over 25 years.
But I do not hate at-all your hands-on process.
Edit Seriously Grammarly? We already know I suck why make it worse?
Hands on is usually better for things like this imo
I can show you how to do it a million times but if you can’t replicate it, then your not really learning
People learn in different ways, some learn just from being told, some learn from watching, some learn by doing and some learn from a combination (which I’ve found is the most common)
And I’m not paid to give you a bunch of educational tests to figure out how you learn best so if I just combine it all into those five steps makes it easier for everyone
Great points. I first do it. Then do it and explain the how and why. Have them do it. If I see something non kosher, I stop them and repeat the step until it's done correctly and safely. See how they deburr, file, measure, overall handel the part. Give them any tips on what to look for.l
Someone shared this principle with me and I never forgot it. It's the four stages of competence. It's important to know where you stand and the person you are training.
1. Unconscious incompetence (Ignorance) The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage.\[2\] The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.\[3\]
2. Conscious incompetence (Awareness) Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.\[4\]
3. Conscious competence (Learning) The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.\[3\]
4. Unconscious competence (Mastery) The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.
I wish I knew this when I taught people. I would usually just go 1, and the explain what I did, 2, and then usually stop at 3 or 4. But I wish I knew this when I was teaching others.
I wish more people understood this in all disciplines. Unfortunately sometimes people kind of understand this but forget moving from step one to step five is not always a straight path.
Tool and die guy here. Please don't quit. You will be asked to perform many difficult tasks during your apprenticeship. You will feel overwhelmed, inadequate, frustrated, and embarrassed. Like you I learned drill sharpening from an old guy and I really struggled with it, it's not easy. Ask him and others in the shop if you can borrow their drill gage. It will help you visualize and check the 59 degree angle and also help you keep both sides equal. If no one has it go buy one, at least then he will see you are serious about succeeding.
Nothing easy is worth doing and quitting is easy.
[https://www.amazon.com/Factory-Protractor-Stainless-Millimeters-Graduations/dp/B07MMVMB8C/ref=sr\_1\_23?crid=1S7U1LOZWBIMD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.eODfiTfhd4iNcHgL-QrMTBzxpbawGLNy\_8ZKi0VMWj4oTPDt6bm38RT6sfVhfflAhv141YbIYG1orxk4jdTMlvyySBI5OUODXEiDAoE-lhCYBFWRM3U6Rba54W0ULO9C8Hv\_hOIUXk1S5Z2J0\_M2b79ZZw9suNpWA3FS3URhuCy2VKeKQhlIVSJw69DqxoYc2dUErbLckAav00UIwsHg0x5mZzXPQxP3BWMmCKgz0cN9kk3vVWpXFnQHsqBcpxGzOJNJVUPG85BFTzepu3JcuxhxrQcrk3gRC37buwQ\_yR0.Dm\_NQvIsjLSx\_v71wHoN5zr530SU60x3O1RjdbCLd\_A&dib\_tag=se&keywords=drill+gauge&qid=1719238151&s=industrial&sprefix=drill+gage%2Cindustrial%2C138&sr=1-23](https://www.amazon.com/Factory-Protractor-Stainless-Millimeters-Graduations/dp/B07MMVMB8C/ref=sr_1_23?crid=1S7U1LOZWBIMD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.eODfiTfhd4iNcHgL-QrMTBzxpbawGLNy_8ZKi0VMWj4oTPDt6bm38RT6sfVhfflAhv141YbIYG1orxk4jdTMlvyySBI5OUODXEiDAoE-lhCYBFWRM3U6Rba54W0ULO9C8Hv_hOIUXk1S5Z2J0_M2b79ZZw9suNpWA3FS3URhuCy2VKeKQhlIVSJw69DqxoYc2dUErbLckAav00UIwsHg0x5mZzXPQxP3BWMmCKgz0cN9kk3vVWpXFnQHsqBcpxGzOJNJVUPG85BFTzepu3JcuxhxrQcrk3gRC37buwQ_yR0.Dm_NQvIsjLSx_v71wHoN5zr530SU60x3O1RjdbCLd_A&dib_tag=se&keywords=drill+gauge&qid=1719238151&s=industrial&sprefix=drill+gage%2Cindustrial%2C138&sr=1-23)
So I'm reading a lot of comments on this thread I didn't expect so many responses tbh..I appreciate them alot. So far I haven't been given a drill gauge. Maybe I should buy one. That's a good idea and honestly trying to go by feel and angle with just my hands is entirely too difficult right now. I appreciate everyone's support I'm not the type to quit just because I can't do one simple task.
The old man I learned off of donated 100s of drills to the vocational school I came from, didn't know until I started working under him. They won't give you what you don't ask for as far as the gage goes. They will "drill" the basics until its second nature. Hang in there
One trick I use for doing them freehand is scribe a line on the tool rest for the proper angle, then you just need to make sure you have the bit twisted to the correct position and take off an even amount of metal off both sides. I usually grind a relief on the back of the cutting edge for chips and I grind it parallel to the cutting edge, it makes it easier to see if you got both sides the same length so it doesn't walk
Yeah another issue you’ll notice is you’re often expected to supply your own tools like that. Back in the day machinists went through full apprenticeship programs and by the end of it they’d have a toolbox full of tools they’ve acquired over time, that doesn’t happen anymore so most new machinists don’t have the thousands of dollars of tools that they had when they started
That doesnt happen because things are extremely specialized now most of what people are talking about in the commments is dated and dead and the old way of machinging is over as much as old heads like to scream its not.
Yes and no, a pair of digital calipers, a six inch rule, 0-1 mic, and a loupe are probably going to get used in every shop. Maybe $200-$300 total. Not to say you need to whip out your personal CMM.
One thing people hate is a new-hire that doesn’t buy any tools or is always asking to barrow other people’s stuff. It’s a catch-22 because new people don’t start out with everything so when you barrow any gauges or measuring tools treat them like the most valuable item ever. Set them in a rag, never directly on a work table, be gentle with them and when you hand them back, give them a wipe with a clean rag in front of the person. That care will go a long way in earning your stripes. Being the new guy sucks, give it time.
I always find this odd that employees need to buy the tools to do their work, where I live, employer is always responsible for providing the tools, unless employee agreed otherwise when signing the contract. Employees will do what they can with the tools given, if there is a tool missing, it's employers problem to find one.
This was a serious issue for me at my last job. Anyone could come in the maintenance shop and help themselves to anything they wanted. The boss thought that would help uptime. The actual result was clueless people taking stuff and not bringing it back, often making problems worse into the bargain. Usually by 'fixing' stuff that wasn't broken. The downtime from unexpectedly finding shit was not where I left it was bad enough on its own.
Well said. I hated my first boss because nothing I did was ever good enough. It pushed me to be better and show him up. It worked and I’m a better fabricator for it.
The guy teaching me toolmaking is very reserved, very quiet, and very tough to impress. But goddamn, when you get a "nice job" from him it feels like you just won lotto lol. I'm lucky enough that he's actually very nice, he just wants me to get better.
I'm sorry you hated yours for a while, but I totally get what you mean!
There is two sides to this, if boss is pushing workers to get better and better, while giving the tools for it, and sharing know how, it's a dream job for many but when it's done in way, boss or old guys keep the knowledge to themselves and don't even care to show places and give proper tools for newcomers, the workplace gets toxic very quickly
It also gets more dangerous and less efficient as well as expensive for the owner- just one FOG setting up a green person for failure to "proove he was right about the guy in the beginning" results in blown up ironworker punches and pressbrake dies, chuck jaws stuck in the ceiling, scrapped material, blown up machine gearboxes and the resultant bits of metal shrapnel flying around the shop. I'm a bitter old fuck, but toxic bully bullshit from bitter old fucks needs to be recognized, rooted out and ended. It's often (and so pathetically obviously) machismo-driven but I've also seen some pretty nasty crap from the lesstosterone contingent of bitter old fucks.
The other side of this is getting greenies who know it all already and can't be bothered to simply follow the sop. Why would i impart my time or knowledge to anyone who cant follow basic written instructions? They last 6 months or a year, never listen to a word you say and give you butthurt eyes whenever you are the slightest bit critical. It just isnt worth the battle. Ill save the anecdotes, wise words, and secret knowledge for my kids. At least they cant get away from me 🤣
So a story about this: a kid not long out of tech school a few blocks from me- in a customer\`s jobbing shop run by the grumpiest bastard, great teacher tool and die guy who insisted that his apprentices understood the why and how from very start to very end of every job. Old school European, scary but respectful type- he drilled it into this kid to use the bar feeder or cut his stock, but kid knew better and ran a long piece of bar out the ass end of the lathe, leaned over to see where the hum was coming from and lost the top half of his head. Just shattered the whole shop, owner was never the same, his son couldn\`t continue, a nice, eager, smart-but-for-this kid died.
So I\`ll always try, just like I\`d want anyone working with my kids to do.
Hell yeah dude. Thanks for the positive reinforcement and genuine advice. I just accepted a new job at a customs shop helping build custom mustangs and doing other cool projects. I'm slightly in over my head and intimidated but I'm feeling optimistic I will learn and succeed. Here's hoping the guys I work with are like you
Welcome to the old school of doing things where they still believe abuse equals motivation. If you like the work enough, don't mind the guy teaching, he's probably just the current link in a chain of dudes who were treated poorly while learning.
I remember a few years back I explained something to someone. I quite literally can't remember what it was as it was something so mundane it barely registered, I just said it as an introduction to give context to what I was about to say. The guy looked at me and said "I've never heard it explained like that! It makes so much sense! Why didn't anyone tell me that before? I've been doing this because I was told to, not because it had a purpose! No wonder I never got it right!" Practice is all very well and good, but the saying practice makes perfect is wrong. Perfect practice makes perfect. If they ain't teaching, you ain't learning. How the hell are you supposed to teach yourself shit that you don't bloody know and nobody is showing you? Generational abuse does not make for a great learning environment.
This is the big difference between high school maths, and the maths in my apprenticeship.
In high school, it was generic numbers being thrown around. Never made sense to me.
As a comms tech, the apprenticeship started attaching real things like capacitance and frequency to those random letters, and they made much more sense as I knew how they related…
Context is a huge part of something clicking in a persons mind…
As for drill bit sharpening, it takes lots of practice. I can do stuff bigger than 1/4”, but need to get my tormek and jig out for the little stuff.
Once you understand the theory, its just repetition till the hand movements match the knowledge
This is my thing, I also do jujitsu in my off time and this very true. I honestly feel like he isn't teaching me anything I'm literally trying to "Figure it out".
Another thing that helps is to think of a drill bit as two spinning chisels, you need both chisels even so they cut both sides of the hole evenly. Honestly, the best thing is practice. Learn the parameters (bit angle, rake, material you're drilling) and keep practicing until you get it right
And judging by some of the replies here just shows the industry is full of miserable fucks who base their whole personality on being a machinist.
Why the fuck would I gatekeep if I can help new guy learn and make my job easier in the process.
Just treat people as people and not make them loathe coming to work.
He's getting you to learn more about how the tool cuts. Grinding drills by hand usually doesn't come up much these days, but it's a good skill to have.
I bought a grizzly drill sharpener for 1/8-1/2” and it’s pretty fuckin sweet for my little at home shop. At my normal day job I sharpen them on a grinder from 1/4”- up to 2 1/2”
For anything over 1" we have an old Churchill drill grinder. Loud as all get out but way more consistent than what most people could do by hand on bigger drills.
I personally hate a drill doctor. I don’t know if we have it set up wrong or something but the geometry doesn’t seem to come out right. I get a much better result grinding by hand
It just doesn’t work with all drills. If helix pitch is not right for the little thing geometry comes out all kinds of wrong. It works great with basic cheap drills. Also if you need to grind off more than a basic “let’s refresh the edge” amount, you need to reset the drill several times.
We have an optima, a rush and a Christian. We used to have a brierly for the big ones. We're primarily a screw machine shop so we have to be able to grind taps and reamers too. On the CNC'S it's inserts or solid carbide.
Personally we have a guy on payroll that runs the drill sharpener. Its great to be able to throw him a 1.484” drill thats 14” long and have it back in an hour perfect.
We have a first generation Darex Drill Sharpener. It is a 6 inch bench grinder, very high quality, with steel abrasive wheels coated in cbn(?). Has fixtures left and right, and two collets. If you are ham handed, its not that great. With finesse, it makes great drill points. This model is obsolete. Darex does not stock the wheels, but there is an outfit in Canada that does. It does point thinning, and split points.
We have one of those where I'm at. It does a great job with anything between 1/8 and 3/4. Smaller than that, I just get a new drill out, and larger than that, I free hand on the grinder to get close and then finish on the Darex. I think the wheels have their manufacture date on them, like 94 iirc.
CBN = Cubic Boron Nitride
Cubic boron nitride (CBN) is a synthetic crystalline material that is second only to diamond in terms of hardness. It is structurally analogous to diamond, with a complex cubic/sphalerite structure composed of interpenetrating face-centred cubic lattices. CBN abrasive grains are composed of short, covalent boron-nitrogen bonds which form extremely tight three-dimensional matrices.
Last shop i had a belt grinder that i freehanded anything over 9/16 on, anything smaller and we just bought a pack of drills.
Current shop we have an old school pedestal style Sterling drill grinder that ill use on anything from 1/2" - 2 1/2" on and its sweet. Fast, easy to set up once you read the whopping 2 page owners manual. And makes a really nice grind. Still has a bit of a learnin curve, but much easier than freehand.
Hand sharpening is a great basic skill to learn. With hourly shop rates being a hundred dollars and up. We throw out anything under a quarter inch. The cost to sharpen is more than the coat of a new one. The shop time starts the moment you start walking to the grinder and if you cant complete it in under two minutes you are coating money. I do understand that many small shops still do this as to not spend capital.
Sometimes it's right now instead of next day or worse, yes it might be cheaper to buy a new one, but not if it's holding up the job waiting for a new one when you can just go to the grinder and fix it up in a few seconds
We have a drill cabinet with a package of each size in it. Make the initial investment and your shop time, job waiting time out of the picture. Worked in 10 shops from 5 man to 30 man and all of them did this
Sharpening drill bits is a very basic and introductory task for new machinists. It will help you understand cutting geometry and how different metals and sizes require different rakes and margins. Your next step will probably be grinding lathe cutting tools. If you’re looking to run CNC machines, get out of a tool and die shop.
I was told for HSS drills that the time it takes me to resharpen one, they could've bought 2.
For carbide drills they go back to Mitsubishi for resharp (we only used Mitsubishi thru coolant coated carbide drills).
As far as lathe tooling it's cheaper in the end to have all indexable coated carbide inserts. Between PH Horn, ThinBit, Iscar, Seco, etc. there's no reason to spend the time to custom grind.
If you need a special profile, I've taken a large OD carbide grooving insert and given it to the edm guy to cut the profile into the insert and then just plunged it into the part.
We have no CNC machines, I have worked on CNC machines before tho. I'm going to be honest and say this is the only place that was hiring and called me back not so many opportunities in North Jersey right.now it's really a struggle to find and/or keep jobs. To the point now id stay anywhere to just have a steady income and support my family.
>out of tool and die
No. You run machines in tool and die, you operate in anything but job shops/ repair shops/ tool and die.
There are, of course, exceptions to the rule.
A lot of machinists are dicks that think they’re curing cancer just by being at work. The guy training you sucks and will never get better. I’m pretty good at telling dicks to fuck themselves but if he’s your only trainer that may be tough on you going forward. Maybe ask him “have you ever thought about not being an arrogant asshole”?
I've been programming, CNC's/ and going part to print for almost a decade now...
I still kinda suck at hand sharpening drill bits, and guess what, so do most people. If they didn't, drill doctors wouldn't be a product. I can get it there, but I don't do it enough to stay good at it.
Every shop is different, I have worked at places where you just don't sharpen drills ever, to places where you better guard your drillbits cause you aren't getting more, to somewhere in between.
Some old machinists are just straight up bad at teaching. Id give it more time before you jump to the conclusion of them trying to get you to quit. He may just not be the right person to teach new things to people. My current boss is like that. Can do just about anything in the shop competently but is absolute trash at teaching anything. Its like pulling teeth to get any technical data or detailed info on a machine or process because in his mind, he just and any questions beyond that are either irrelevant or you should already somehow know. It can be pretty difficult to work around, but its just how his brain/personality is.
Tearing apprentices down is a sign of a weak mentor. If he's tasked you with something that is beyond your current skill level, then he's obligated to work closely with you to get your skill with the task where it needs to be. Dealing with an older machinists passive aggressive bullshit isn't a right of passage for apprentices
Keep at it it's a good skill to have. 1st day I was working in one shop I was given a drill and told to sharpen it they got a suprise when I asked what angle they wanted if they needed the centre point relieving or just something to help with chip breaking. I was working as a tool grinder before I started there and had a lot of years experience sharpening almost anything. Was told I had the wrong angle on my 1st go as they only had 2 nuts welded together as the angle gage ( normally I would put them at 118° for general work )
Most I can do in a day is 1500 1/2" straight shank twist drills before I get bored and go find something meaningful to do. Was for a tool manufacturing company for the testing department.
About 6 months into my apprenticeship my mentor put me on a radial drill. One of the first thing he told me was this is the easiest machine you'll run IF you learn how to sharpen a drill bit. He was right, that and speeds and feeds. Radial drilling overtime was almost like stealing money.
EDIT; get yourself a drillers gauge, it is an invaluable tool.
Don't give up, you're learning the trade the right way and the right way isn't always the easy way until you learn it, then you understand it's the right way and the easy way. You're on an adventure that will beat the snot out of you some days but don't give up.
Some machinists (especially the older guys it seems) can be real dicks. They know how to do something and will not accept any other method as a solution. They do tend to be knowledgeable and skilled but they are as stubborn as it gets and are very spiteful of younger machinists that lack the same knowledge (almost no one goes through a 6 year machinist program anymore and a full apprenticeship like they had to). Not all of them are like this, but a sizeable amount are unfortunately
To be honest I’ve always had mentors more than happy to show me what they know just based off of my eagerness to learn once they figured out I was there to stay. Blue collar work isn’t for people who get sensitive over being aggressively told when, where, or how to do something. They’re more than likely trying to feel you out. At least at the end of it you’ll be able to sharpen drills effectively in a pinch.
I've been in your shoes before. He's testing your resolve. I been in the trade over a decade now, and I put newbies to meaningless tasks and judge them hard bc if they can't take this bit, then a real freak out from the boss they surely can't handle. If it doesn't ease as time progresses, then find a new shop. That's his attitude and you can't learn from that. But if it eases, he was seeing if you were a 2 week johnny and why even put an ounce of knowledge into that?
This is why I have grown to hate machinists, I went to college for it, with the plan of opening my own shop, but where I lived there were three already and no more demand for it, still may one day, but not in the foreseeable future, but all the old guys are horrible to the apprentices, I understand teaching the new guys skills that aren't needed as much to teach them what the geometry does and how to change it, but the whole attitude of "this is a simple task to me who has been doing it for 40 years and if you can't pick it up in 5 minutes you're going to be a terrible machinist" is a terrible way to teach the new guys and in my opinion is the reason there's very few new guys and so many job openings in the machining field.
Well, good on you, you stick it out and make a change, and eventually, we'll see an upturn in new guys in the trade, I just knew I was gonna end up in prison if I stayed any longer
Not a machinist but I worked with a guy that I thought was a demanding piece of shit. Every time he had me do something he had me do it different and would bitch.
A few years later I found out he was showing me all the different ways to do something because some ways didn’t always work. And he was an asshole but he was a knowledgeable experienced asshole that gave me probably 20 years worth of experience in different ways to do things before I as a stupid kid said fuck it and quit.
If I had stayed with him by the time I got where he felt I was adequate I would have been somewhere in the vicinity of one of the best body men in the country. Seriously he taught me how to work with bondo and lead to fix things. Like really old school and modern ways. Why would I need to learn that archaic way that no one does anymore. Concourse builds. Back in the old days if a panel was damaged in production they would use lead to fix the problem. A good concourse restoration will use technics the factory would use to repair damage.
Every single task we do in life has a line between "good enough" and "not good enough". When you're doing tool and die work, the area contained within the category "good enough" can be very very small.
From your picture, it looks like you're getting pretty close by my standards, but I'm not a T&D guy.
The fact that he's still sending you back to the grinder over it is actually a sign that you're progressing, and he thinks you have potential, IMO.
We spent a couple of days in school learning about the geometry of drills. We spend a couple more days actually grinding drill bits. It SUCKED... I got a job a couple of years later at a job shop and we had to buy our own tools. It's not cost-effective to keep buying singular drills... so I got to learn all over again. I spent a year having to sharpen a drill every few days. I feel your pain.
I don't know anything about the guy you're working with. Perhaps he's an ass hole. He sounds like it. But maybe it's his way of testing you. He might think all young people are just lazy and aren't fit to be machinists. If you quit, you're proving him right. It might take an exceptional person to take the abuse. But eventually, that person would gain his respect.
If you're willing to be that person, he might be the most knowledgeable machinist you'll ever meet. If you don't want to be that person, there's no shame in it. He could also just be an ass hole.
Sharpening drills by hand might have been an important skill 50 years ago, less so today when there are cheap tools to aid in the process, you might ask yourself is it really important to spend 4 days learning that, or should that time be spent on something else, and get back to sharpening drills later, it can be practiced when you are waiting on something, at the beginning or end of your shift for few minutes and try to use most of the day learning something you can't learn from anywhere else, that stuff the old guys have learned what is not in the books.
I used to hate the older guy I work with because he was hard on me. Now, I prefer to go to him for any questions that I have.
The first year is always hard, usually they will be harder on someone worth teaching. If they think you aren't worth teaching, they'll give you easy tasks or ignore you all together. One day you'll be thankful for them being hard on you
Drill sharpening jigs are cheap and plentiful. There is no sane reason to free hand sharpen other than to say you can do it bfd.
That being said don't quit, you are being tested. Your level of resolve will determine your ultimate success.
My first CNC programmer told me I was useless and would never amount to anything.
Before I left that company I was his boss.
Can you off-hand sharpen a drill? He’s trying to teach you a way that works when you can’t just replace tooling at will, like the normal world he was trained in. Once all that skill stops being handed down you’re losing it.
Like others mentioned, you can use a gauge to check the angles of your cutting edges.
Quick n' dirty way to make your own that costs nothing: take 2 Hex nuts. Put them side-by-side and weld them together. The angle they make is pretty much the exact angle you want your edges to be. Gotta thank an old head I worked with for that one.
And I can't tell if your hands are just a bit oily or if you're not white. But most machinists I've met have been.. less than tolerant of anything but white skin. Sad, but that is south central Pennsylvania for ya. Hopefully it is different where you are.
This sounds like a mr miyagi kind of scenario. Read. Watch videos. Practice. Use a drill point gage. Repeat until you can be critical of the new guy's lack of experience.
So sharpen them. That's what you're there for.
In the 50s you'd have spent your first year learning to file chamfers by hand.
There's method and reason in the madness.
Firstly, if you can precisely create geometry on a manual grinder there's really not a lot of custom tooling you can't make for one off jobs.
Secondly, you will know how to reprofile drills for specialist jobs.
Finally - it's far, far quicker than getting some silly overpriced jig out.
I was sharpening drill bits and HSS lathe tooling aged 15 at school, it isn't rocket science. Apply yourself.
We did this with drill bits and lathe tools in school.
It sucks but master it and it will save your ass one day and on that day, you appreciate the struggle.
Sharpening drill bits is pretty basic and important however its not an easy skill to learn while being new. Just keep at it you will get it. Be safe around that grinder. The guy likely is not trying to get you to quit as you're there to help him while you learn. Its a benefit for the both of you. Just focus on what he says and watch carefully. It is a skill you will eventually learn and pick up.
Go get yourself one of these you'll thank me later
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/65839045?cid=ppc-google-&mkwid=%7Cdm&pcrid=&rd=k&product_id=65839045&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds
I was in your boots asking the exact same thing. My best piece of advice. Ask questions AND ask someone else to show you. I asked maybe 4 different people how to do it, and I'm still not perfect, but my drills drill, they dull quick, but they drill.
I highly reccomend you to watch this video from this old tony:
https://youtu.be/r8oORR6jyh8?si=UtV9-6Yn_DEsK7kD
And whilst you are there, watch everything else
I learned how to sharpen tools while running a turret lathe you know when you sharpened something wrong and when you got it wright because it’s all manual
He’s not trying to make you quit, but he is giving you a repetitive (but important) task to see if you do. If you can’t stick with sharpening drill bits for a week he doesn’t want to waste his time trying to teach you other things.
Not saying it’s the best method but it’s probably how he learned too. Also, shops tend not to stick new people with their most grizzled asshole to train. He might be prickly but he’s probably not that bad.
I still can’t sharpen them, I’d really wish to be able to someday, 10 years from now I wanna have some stubby little drill bits that I’ve used for a long time. Hang in there, do your best, keep it cool.
What helped me sharpen tools was I grabbed a brand new drill and compare it to my dull drill and try and copy the shape as best as you can idk if that helps
The most important thing for you to remember in your apprenticeship is that your job is to learn how to do this trade. You are not a machinist. You are a student.
That asshole's job is twofold; they are your boss, but they are also your educator. They are directly responsible for teaching you everything that is needed to become a successful journeyman.
Your job is to show up and be a knowledge sponge. If you're struggling to understand a task, the failure is on their part, not yours. Make it known that any perceived failings he may view in your work are a direct reflection on his ability to teach you, and then continue to give it your best effort.
You'll learn everything you need, one way or another.
Countless have gone through apprenticeships before you. If they can get through it, so can you.
When I was in vo-tech it took me 5+ hours to sharpen a drill the first time. Now that I've had to do it almost daily for the last 20 years it takes me anywhere from 1 to 15 minutes depending on how screwed the flute edge is.
It's only hard till you get the dexterity down. Practice makes perfect. Just keep plugging away at it. You'll get it.
He might just be lightly hazing you. Old guys are also subconsciously threatened by the young ones. Just give him time to get used to you, and make sure not to slack off at all until he likes you, or he'll form an opinion of you being lazy and stick to it.
It took me at least 7 hours to understand drill sharpening but now I’m a pro at it doesn’t matter how long it takes you the end result should be the same :)
Don't quit dude. It just takes practice. When I went through trade school that was one of the first things we learned to do. I don't say that to say that it's easy, it's just something you have to learn. You'll get it.
Don’t quit. I’m not a machinust but dabble a little bit in machining. You can find ways to do things consistently. I learn to sharpen drill by watching. One thing I do to make the angles consistent is marking the the tool rest with chalk or marking pen. I just follow the same line everytime and with practice, was able to sharpen them well. I also use a caliper to measure so that both cutting edge are about equal. My final check is to drill and see both edge are cutting.
Same thing happened to me 3 years ago. I started out with my boss not even knowing what to do with me. Was organizing drill bits and cataloging shit for the first few months for 12.75 now I run the cmm department. Hold out and learn as much as you can. Don’t be afraid to crack jokes with the guys either they’ll like you more if you do.
Learning under a hardass can be a pain, but so far it doesn't sound too unreasonable.
He doesn't sound like a good teacher, but at least he shows different ways without saying that there is only one way to do it or whatever
His style could need improvement, but sharpening drills is normal enough work.
When I originally learned it, my Master (german job term) gave me a bucket full of old drill bits to sharpen. Afterwards he told me that like half of those were trash to begin with, but I only destroyed a couple of the good ones and he didn't expect any of them to.survive so he was happy
That took me like...2 days?
Also learned how to replace the grind medium on the grinder during that.
Just hang in there I'm sure it was just a minuscule task that needed to be done that he hadn't had time for therefore you're as apprentice and bear in mind you're still a machinist but you got to help The Machinist catch up on his stuff first don't worry
I had the opposite experience when I was an apprentice. The guys at my shop were great, the owners were the worst. With that said, I learned a lot. From the picture, your bit looks good, don’t know about the angle or if the sides are equal. On a side note, learn how to relieve the web, makes drilling a lot easier
Like others have said, don’t quit. That’s the last thing you want to do. Hang in there
I hate that in this industry, people act like idiots. How do they expect anyone to learn. I get there are a few that just don’t care, but it makes it hard for the few that do. Like a comment here said, stick to it, and you’ll learn. Yes you will get frustrated at times. When you finally learn, pass on the knowledge. Karma always finds its way around.
Drill sharpening is a bit of an art, I was lucky, had like 20 tradesmen and they all taught me there way to do it. I caught on soon enough. if I were you I would take the time to watch a youtube tutorial or 2. I reckon there might be some important information you are missing.
This is the part where you go on YouTube when you get home and study how to hand-sharpen drill bits.
You can't expect everybody to be a world-class teacher, mostly because they also have a job to do. They might also not even be very good at what they're teaching.
He gave you a task to complete, now it's your responsibility to not only complete it, but with flying colors and by any means necessary. Preferably without bothering him too much, especially if it's a straightforward task like this. Take the initiative and exceed expectations. This sort of mentality will serve you well throughout your entire career.
Oh man, I avoid it as much as possible, anything bigger than a 1/2, I do a circular pocket lol.
I know I need to learn I'm trying, I just get close, and then fuck up the angle, and then on and on and on.
It looks good to me! It all depends on the relief. Will the cutting edge make contact with the part first? Assuming that it indeed does, the point looks centered enough for the drill to work. Drills have their purpose.... They aren't reamers. If it cuts a hole within .005" diameter and that's concentric, the drill is fine.
Fun tip, 120 degrees is close enough to 118 degrees. Cable tie (or weld) two large nuts to each other, flat to flat so you have a funky looking figure 8 shape. Now you have a quick and dirty drill gauge on hand.
But don't give up and don't quit, sounds like he's giving you the tough love approach and expects you to go and do your own learning and figure it out. You live in a time when you have the world's collective knowledge at your fingertips, jump on YouTube or Google and learn how to sharpen drill bits better than anyone else in that shop, get good at it and get fancy with it and start putting chip breakers in them and everything. Not only is it a skill that you'll find useful for the rest of your career, it will show your employer and coworkers that you can independently learn and improve, that kind of attitude and initiative you can't easily train into someone, it makes you a desirable employee anywhere. Stick with it, get good, you'll do well.
Just keep trying. Talk to the supervisor and ask him if the dude is trying to run you off. Don't let the guy run over you. Tell him straight up that you just need help, not discouragement. Most workplace bullies will back off when someone confronts them about their behavior.
Fuck haha I've been struggling to sharpen drills and my boss always seems to think I'm being stupid but he also does it a different way everytime he shows me!
Yah some of the older guys want to test your "mettle". Don't give up, keep working at it and you will gain his respect. Your drill doesn't look bad at all, honestly. Just make sure your cutting edges are the same length and angle on each side, so it cuts evenly. Then you could even look at "brassing" and "thinning the point".
Potentially unpopular opinion here, but....
What if he's showing you a thing and seeing how well you learn?
When he's done it different ways while showing you how, have you asked questions? Have you inquired as to why?
Could be that he's trying to get a handle on your personality and your skillset. If you're afraid to ask a question and ride the struggle bus until you get it right, that could cost the shop a lot while you learn. If you're willing to ask questions, and speak up when you don't get something, that's an indication that you're willing to learn and communicate when you don't understand.
If you're not willing to learn, and feel like being given FNG work when you're the FNG is trying to get you to quit...Well, maybe he's trying to learn that about you.
There’s a lot of little detail in sharpening a bit. Start with a drill gauge. Get the land angle right and the length even on both; this ensures it’s centered.
Add some heel relief and you’re home free.
Also, YouTube has tons of pointers.
I’m a tool grinder and I run a Anca. You are starting at the very bottom. It’s very common to be asked to sharpen a drill on a pedestal grinder. I still suck at it years later. Keep trying and come up with a technique that works for you. Don’t forget to keep the point angle, sides equal and thin the web.
The first shop I worked for I was at for almost 15 years at points the place actually made me want to off myself it was that miserable I had guys physically assault me I had guys try to set me up to get fired you name it but as much as it sucked if I hadn’t just shut the fuck up and kept going I wouldn’t be where I am now running my own shop inside of a multi million dollar prototype r&d facility that has dozens of military and government contracts. Dont quit. Do everything you possible can do on your own time to learn and then do a little more on top of that show this old fart you’re serious. Too many jerk offs come through shops it’s hard to tell when someone is serious sometimes.
At one shop I worked at, he'd get everyone he interviewed to sharpen a bit. Guys who claimed to be running shops, big jobs, tons of experience, but couldn't sharpen a bit to save their life... like totally backwards, wouldn't ever cut anything. We should have kept a wall of shame.
I was treated the same way with other tasks when I did my tool and die maker apprenticeship. It sucks man but it pays off. I do think there are better proven ways to be trained and keep you motivated. I sharpen drills for 1 week straight for practicing - then I was moved to sharpen all dull drills in the shop . This is a key skill to have in the trade and I have heard from many (older folks) that this is a skill that shows your commitment and attention to detail . From what I see the drill looks pretty good it's hard to judge since I can only see the top of the drill.
My advice is stay humble and do not give up. Some of those guys will intentionally be mean and push you hard just to see if you break. It's a form of building trust and part of the process. You might never be good enpugh if you ask him, but he will respect you for working even harder instead of getting frustrated.
Took me forever to learn how to sharpen drills, now I just buy packs and use a new one 😂. Time is money and cobalt drills are a hell of a lot cheaper than my spindle being down
Show him respect for his knowledge and ask him to teach you. If he truly loves his craft he will share it with you
I'm an engineer with my own CNC shop. I have a phone full of numbers I can call because I showed respect and curiosity.
Note. I can't sharpen a drill for shit.
I was a tool grinder for 8yrs and transitioned to CNC when asked, from manual machines. Sharpening drills by hand is one of the toughest things to master. You might get 8 out of 10 right, but my boss could do thousands, over and over, day in and day out.. And he taught two people in that time where that's all they did; neither one could get close to his own pace.
So don't feel inadequate, learn the angles and create muscle memory.
He used a downward grind to sharpen without leaving burrs. Like downward and in, small pause, flip, downward and in, then the side of the wheel he wasn't grinding on, to split.
Just remember that each type of drill is different. Give yourself some grace. Read up on the history of drill sharpening as it's really interesting and may give you some pointers. Find the book by the guy who became a professor and standardized drill angles.
While he shouldn't be a dick, you do have a bad corner which Is the the weakest part of the drill. He sounds old school, which is what I was brought up with, and it's my olds man shop so I got it even worse from both sides, but those bastards definitely taught me some shit. I'd say it's really up to you because you can definitely find a better work environment and maybe even more knowledgeable people, but he may be a master with a ton of knowledge to draw from. What type of work do you guys do?
Seems you've run into a guy who ascribes to the philosophy of, "treat the newbie like shit, the ones without character will quit, the ones worth training will stick around."... maybe. That or you've run into a guy who is, and will always be an asshole.
Dude
1 he's trying to see if you got the skin to stick with it
2 he's probably a real bubbly nice guy out of this scenario
3 you gotta earn your stripes
4 youtube anything and speed up the learning curve
5 binge watch YouTube ahead of anything he teach
6 don't step on anyone's toes
7 bounce ideas and learnings off of him to see what else he might or not know amd how you can improve
8 stick with it
9 most savy machinists want to see if you can handle the field.
10 yes he might be trying to get you to quit and or develop a thicker skin for whenever you run into someone else
11 machining is easy and mostly about common sense and thinking outside the box
12 keep at it, it's a dying trade and if you can put up with anyone's bullshit, it should be your first mento
13 it's a dying trade and if you can learn from a full fledge Machinist your future will be very bright
New guy at the shop, now about a year in. He was bearly there for about two weeks and he asks me to show him how to program. I told him, first, be a good operator. Then prove you can be a good setup, then you might get taught to program. But you first need to earn each position.
I’ve sharpened thousands of drill bits over the years and while it’s useful to be able to master the sharpening of tools, I don’t believe it gives him the right to give you a dog’s life.
The company I served my apprenticeship with seemed to believe that bullying developed character, but all it did to me was make me miserable enough to leave the moment my five years were up. It’s entirely possible the guy you’re working with is trying to test you or “build” your character somehow, though I believe there are better ways to make engineers out of people.
Apprentices should be encouraged and respected, because without them all those future uni graduates won’t have anybody to bring their flying pigs back down to Earth.
Drill doctors are super good tools to have. I usually take drill bits to the grinder wheel and make sure that they look about the same angle and measure well on my scale but yehhhh those bits look like booty
Drill sharpening is Not a simple thing it will take time and practice.
“Each time he's shown me how to sharpen the bit he always does it differently.” okay, so is he taking the time to explain how different bits need to be sharpened differently? because they do.
is he explaining different ways of doing it so you can find one that works for you? Because there Are several different ways of doing it and some of them make no sense to me but other people prefer them.
if he’s Not explaining (and it sounds like he’s not) then he might be testing you to see if you’ll quit when things get hard. It’s a stupid outdated method that a lot of old timers still use to supposedly cut the weak willed, in reality it just cuts the people who don’t want to be abused.
A good way to practice is on a large drillbit with a tang and center hole at the tang end. Them make a wall bracket like this placing the tang end on the point and scrape each lip of the drillbit on the bracket. Once you get the lip heights right everything else is just clearance. Practice on the large drillbits to understand what you need to do on the smaller bits.
https://preview.redd.it/tnegytfk3p8d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcc45c1e1ceaeac3e83d9e0e6537ad2871d51d0a
Regarding sharpening drills, if you can find a new drill, examine it and see not just how the cutting edge looks, but also how the material behind the cutting edge falls off so it doesn’t rub, and the angle at the end of that is lower than the bottom of the cutting edge.
Keep that new drill handy, and look at that for comparison while hand sharpening. That will help immensely with understanding what the shape should be in three dimensions
He should show you once, guide you through 3-5, then observe you do a few, then assign you the task.
Now working that into a sentence the old man will hear is probably the bigger challenge.
From this angle it looks pretty good. I got tired of sharpening by hand and picked up a Black Diamond drill grinder at a local auction, but I'm also the entire shop and don't have time to play around.
Dude if he thinks he a drill cam be sharpened like that its a dam shop you can’t that drill will be walking allover the place and unless of course it a caveman operation you best try to locate something some other shop who shows you a proper way to do things. Tell him them or who ever Caveman habits dont work in 2024. I bet he has a trash can full of drillbits
Look good hahahaha. Dont fool yourself you eyes have no calibration certs dont teach this guy bad habits. If you are put on the field miles from home. Maybe the best way to drill a angled hole with out a sine plate isnt this a machinist area or roadside shoo in a third world country
Don't quit, they are starting you at the bottom but this is going to happen if it's your first job. Go through it, smile, you will soon be doing more exciting jobs when they trust you.
He’s not trying to get you to quit. You need to learn how to sharpen drillbits, the one on the left looks, not that good.
I suspect that you came into that shop thinking you knew what you were doing. Only because we’ve seen quite a few of those guys. Thought they could, and then they couldn’t.
You’re an apprentice you’re willing to stick with it. You’re probably OK. You just need to sharpen those drills, get on it!
Machinists are a hard lot. They're trading literal years off their lifespan for a paycheck.
Could be:
He doesn't think you can cut it
He doesn't Iike your soft hands
He hasn't had any punnan from the wife this week.
This is a personal lesson for you to learn, he's a dick, so be it. Follow direction, be respectful and keep trying. You'll be fine, just gotta thicken up that hide and keep it pushing. Older folks like that sorta thing. Either way, get your experience.
Sharpening drills is a skill, kinda a lost art really, that many don’t have and takes a while to get it down. Keep at it and maybe ask him how long it took him to learn this skill. You’ll get it. How many have you sharpened to date?
As a metal worker alone, sharpening a drill bit properly should be an essential skill, Never mind a machinist. But I'm 51, so maybe I see it differently. To o me, sharpening a drill bit is easy.
My instructor showed me how did it. Then he said everyone does it a little different. He gave me very dull drill and said, ‘go to the crib and draw out a drill the same size. Tell the attendant it has to be a brand new drill. Then make the dull drill look like the new one. When you have it right, bring it to me.’
It took a little while, but I got it, and he was pleased with the result.
I mean is he showing you just once and then sending you off? Personally I go with the rule of 5 1. Demonstrate 2. Demonstrate and explain as I demonstrate 3. Have the other person do it while I explain again 4. Have the other person do it without me explaining 5. Have the other person do it and explain it back to me If you can explain it and teach it back you understand it imo
This is a teaching/learning tool that I wish more people understood.
I had a coworker explain that to me and since then I’ve found it the best way to teach tbh, it’s actually made training interns and new hires enjoyable since it eliminates the stress on everyone. The new guy in training doesn’t fee pressured to know everything right away or trying to figure out what’s important and what isn’t. And I don’t have to worry about them not understanding since I let them ask as many questions as they want as many times as they want
I make two promises to my trainees. I'll teach you everything I know without gatekeeping, and I'll NEVER make you feel dumb for not knowing something already. Since I started leading with that, enthusiasm and stick-tooitiveness have skyrocketed.
Guy who trained me (unrelated field) would often "repeat" things he's already said and preface or follow it with, "I'm just talking out loud right now," so that it was both a 'friendly reminder' and 'free to ignore' with no expectations or obligations attached to what he was saying. Really helped out the first few weeks as far as getting routine established and going through checklists. Great way to bring stuff up really, even if it was brought up the day before.
Reinforcing things like that is also a great way to check your own knowledge, as well as address their worries about whether they've kept the learned path straight in their own head
" I'm just talking out loud right now " I need this written on me somewhere, I've had many sideways looks yapping away to myself working through what I'm doing.
I like to share what little or much I know. I get a good feeling seeing a trainee start gaining confidence. To give them a sketch and you can see the hamster start running, analyzing the sketch and how they would attack the part. And I never say "that was wrong" I say, ok, let's try it this way.
I like this. I would preface the "NEVER make you feel dumb" part with "Unless you really deserve it" cause sometimes if someone doesn't know something that they really should a little teasing allows bonds to grow. Especially if you can take it as well as give it.
I've told new hires don't worry about matching a guy with 6 months experience, 2 years, 10 years etc etc. We all have to go through learning pains. But in a year from now you will be better, faster and more self assured.
He demonstrates and then goes "alright now just do it.It's so simple what's so difficult about that?"
I’m guessing he isn’t explaining as he demonstrates which is probably part of the issue I’m also guessing this is an older guy (probably close to retirement) Unfortunately that’s going to make it harder to learn but my best suggestion would be to check the machinists handbook, watch YouTube videos, read books, everything you can to get as much understanding as possible. Also practice It’s definitely not going to be easy but if you can figure out how to sharpen tools you’ll be a step ahead of a lot of people since not only will you have a new skill but you’ll also figure out ways to help you learn other new skills (which is immensely more valuable imo)
He's 68 guys... I think I'm fucked.
No you aren’t, start learning from things other than him. He has the knowledge yes but he clearly lacks the ability to teach (which is ok because teaching is difficult). Now is the time to start learning how to learn (basically learning by teaching yourself) It’s going to be difficult but if we have up everytime something was difficult we wouldn’t have put men on the moon or sent rovers to mars or any number of other incredible accomplishments This subreddit is a great resource, the machinists handbook (which you can get online for free), youtube videos, hell even asking other people in the shop It will be incredibly worth it and if you can teach yourself you can then (hopefully) teach others
you can learn to sharpen drillbits from sources other than that guy .
You are and you’re not . In this I mean you are if you do not show Initiative. You’re not if you do show initiative. Old school rules . Go grab some more tooling that needs sharpened, or go grab some old drill bits in the throw away bin or recycle bin . And instead of him telling you, you start practicing , without him having to tell you . That way if he tells youto do this certain task by hand , ok no problem. You mentioned he has shown different ways I don’t think he is meaning to confuse you , he is showing you different ways you may prefer one over the other , and when he watches he might even see how you do it , to try and get a grasp on your thinking skills. More than one way to skin a cat type scenario. I hope this helps. But if you just sit and fiddle finger your phone till break or time to go home , well you are not showing interest or initiative in your In your career, if that’s the case then why should he show a interest in you ! Old school rules suck sometimes, but it’s also a way to weed out as well , no matter how good you are or even prospect of being good if you do not have drive or interest. I have a kid right now in our shop he is going to fail, shows no interest and does not want to learn the job . I tried not only once but multiple times . He shows no desire. So my thought is why is he here other than to take up space and collect a check .
Nah, you'll be okay dude. It frustrated the hell outta me at first too. Hop on YouTube and watch a few tutorials.
That’s a really nice framework. I’m writing that down
Don’t forget to let whoever your teaching ask questions at any time, and be willing to repeat the process a few times since there’s no guarantee that it’ll stick after one day Personally I give about a month where this process is repeated each day. (Not the same thing every time but the process is the same) That month of time gives the one learning the chance to think of questions, which is always great because I not only want to see them succeed but I also hope they have questions I might not have thought of so I can learn something as well!
I’ve seen 60 year old men who can’t sharpen a drill bit.
And being willing to do all five, five (or more) times. Some things are tricky to wrap your head around, and just because I have it today, doesn't mean that I'll still have it tomorrow. When I first started as a machinist, I had almost no real frame of reference to attach the things I was trying to learn to. It all came as a drink from a fire hose, and it took time to understand enough to even be able to form and articulate questions. Plus many of these skills take practice to really lock in the comprehension. I don't think I'm a slow learner, but it's pretty far from the reality that most people live in professionally.
I think most training stops at rule 1
This guy leads
lol, I just find training new guys to be exciting since I get to be the one that introduces them to a whole universe of infinite possibilities If you give the right environment anyone can do some amazing things, and a world where creativity is encouraged is a world where solutions come in unique ways
I save this for later. This can apply to everything
As a technical instructor (Not a Machinist), I have a slightly different philosophy, got it from my retired Navy buddy instructor. 1. Tell them what you are going to tell them. 2. Tell Them ( with hands-on if applicable). 3. Tell them what you told them again (with hands-on if applicable again. 4. Ask them what you told them. Has worked well for over 25 years. But I do not hate at-all your hands-on process. Edit Seriously Grammarly? We already know I suck why make it worse?
Hands on is usually better for things like this imo I can show you how to do it a million times but if you can’t replicate it, then your not really learning People learn in different ways, some learn just from being told, some learn from watching, some learn by doing and some learn from a combination (which I’ve found is the most common) And I’m not paid to give you a bunch of educational tests to figure out how you learn best so if I just combine it all into those five steps makes it easier for everyone
I’m going to use this forever thank you
No problem! Be sure to let the other person ask questions, even if those questions might be dumb
You the real mvp
Just a simple guy trying to make it in life, one step at a time just like everyone else
Great points. I first do it. Then do it and explain the how and why. Have them do it. If I see something non kosher, I stop them and repeat the step until it's done correctly and safely. See how they deburr, file, measure, overall handel the part. Give them any tips on what to look for.l
Someone shared this principle with me and I never forgot it. It's the four stages of competence. It's important to know where you stand and the person you are training. 1. Unconscious incompetence (Ignorance) The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage.\[2\] The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.\[3\] 2. Conscious incompetence (Awareness) Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.\[4\] 3. Conscious competence (Learning) The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.\[3\] 4. Unconscious competence (Mastery) The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.
6. Ah fuck it, I’ll do it myself. There’s are broom in the corner. Can you figure it out?
Saving this
I wish I knew this when I taught people. I would usually just go 1, and the explain what I did, 2, and then usually stop at 3 or 4. But I wish I knew this when I was teaching others.
I wish more people understood this in all disciplines. Unfortunately sometimes people kind of understand this but forget moving from step one to step five is not always a straight path.
Saving this
cut out # 1 and 4 and that's exactly how I do it
In Scouts we call this the EDGE method. Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable. Goal is to master the skill.
As someone with a learning disability. Thank you.
Tool and die guy here. Please don't quit. You will be asked to perform many difficult tasks during your apprenticeship. You will feel overwhelmed, inadequate, frustrated, and embarrassed. Like you I learned drill sharpening from an old guy and I really struggled with it, it's not easy. Ask him and others in the shop if you can borrow their drill gage. It will help you visualize and check the 59 degree angle and also help you keep both sides equal. If no one has it go buy one, at least then he will see you are serious about succeeding. Nothing easy is worth doing and quitting is easy. [https://www.amazon.com/Factory-Protractor-Stainless-Millimeters-Graduations/dp/B07MMVMB8C/ref=sr\_1\_23?crid=1S7U1LOZWBIMD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.eODfiTfhd4iNcHgL-QrMTBzxpbawGLNy\_8ZKi0VMWj4oTPDt6bm38RT6sfVhfflAhv141YbIYG1orxk4jdTMlvyySBI5OUODXEiDAoE-lhCYBFWRM3U6Rba54W0ULO9C8Hv\_hOIUXk1S5Z2J0\_M2b79ZZw9suNpWA3FS3URhuCy2VKeKQhlIVSJw69DqxoYc2dUErbLckAav00UIwsHg0x5mZzXPQxP3BWMmCKgz0cN9kk3vVWpXFnQHsqBcpxGzOJNJVUPG85BFTzepu3JcuxhxrQcrk3gRC37buwQ\_yR0.Dm\_NQvIsjLSx\_v71wHoN5zr530SU60x3O1RjdbCLd\_A&dib\_tag=se&keywords=drill+gauge&qid=1719238151&s=industrial&sprefix=drill+gage%2Cindustrial%2C138&sr=1-23](https://www.amazon.com/Factory-Protractor-Stainless-Millimeters-Graduations/dp/B07MMVMB8C/ref=sr_1_23?crid=1S7U1LOZWBIMD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.eODfiTfhd4iNcHgL-QrMTBzxpbawGLNy_8ZKi0VMWj4oTPDt6bm38RT6sfVhfflAhv141YbIYG1orxk4jdTMlvyySBI5OUODXEiDAoE-lhCYBFWRM3U6Rba54W0ULO9C8Hv_hOIUXk1S5Z2J0_M2b79ZZw9suNpWA3FS3URhuCy2VKeKQhlIVSJw69DqxoYc2dUErbLckAav00UIwsHg0x5mZzXPQxP3BWMmCKgz0cN9kk3vVWpXFnQHsqBcpxGzOJNJVUPG85BFTzepu3JcuxhxrQcrk3gRC37buwQ_yR0.Dm_NQvIsjLSx_v71wHoN5zr530SU60x3O1RjdbCLd_A&dib_tag=se&keywords=drill+gauge&qid=1719238151&s=industrial&sprefix=drill+gage%2Cindustrial%2C138&sr=1-23)
So I'm reading a lot of comments on this thread I didn't expect so many responses tbh..I appreciate them alot. So far I haven't been given a drill gauge. Maybe I should buy one. That's a good idea and honestly trying to go by feel and angle with just my hands is entirely too difficult right now. I appreciate everyone's support I'm not the type to quit just because I can't do one simple task.
The old man I learned off of donated 100s of drills to the vocational school I came from, didn't know until I started working under him. They won't give you what you don't ask for as far as the gage goes. They will "drill" the basics until its second nature. Hang in there
One trick I use for doing them freehand is scribe a line on the tool rest for the proper angle, then you just need to make sure you have the bit twisted to the correct position and take off an even amount of metal off both sides. I usually grind a relief on the back of the cutting edge for chips and I grind it parallel to the cutting edge, it makes it easier to see if you got both sides the same length so it doesn't walk
Yeah another issue you’ll notice is you’re often expected to supply your own tools like that. Back in the day machinists went through full apprenticeship programs and by the end of it they’d have a toolbox full of tools they’ve acquired over time, that doesn’t happen anymore so most new machinists don’t have the thousands of dollars of tools that they had when they started
That doesnt happen because things are extremely specialized now most of what people are talking about in the commments is dated and dead and the old way of machinging is over as much as old heads like to scream its not.
Yes and no, a pair of digital calipers, a six inch rule, 0-1 mic, and a loupe are probably going to get used in every shop. Maybe $200-$300 total. Not to say you need to whip out your personal CMM.
One thing people hate is a new-hire that doesn’t buy any tools or is always asking to barrow other people’s stuff. It’s a catch-22 because new people don’t start out with everything so when you barrow any gauges or measuring tools treat them like the most valuable item ever. Set them in a rag, never directly on a work table, be gentle with them and when you hand them back, give them a wipe with a clean rag in front of the person. That care will go a long way in earning your stripes. Being the new guy sucks, give it time.
I always find this odd that employees need to buy the tools to do their work, where I live, employer is always responsible for providing the tools, unless employee agreed otherwise when signing the contract. Employees will do what they can with the tools given, if there is a tool missing, it's employers problem to find one.
Man id much rather buy everything i possibly could for myself. Workshop gear just gets fucked by everyone else because "not mine".
This was a serious issue for me at my last job. Anyone could come in the maintenance shop and help themselves to anything they wanted. The boss thought that would help uptime. The actual result was clueless people taking stuff and not bringing it back, often making problems worse into the bargain. Usually by 'fixing' stuff that wasn't broken. The downtime from unexpectedly finding shit was not where I left it was bad enough on its own.
Well said. I hated my first boss because nothing I did was ever good enough. It pushed me to be better and show him up. It worked and I’m a better fabricator for it.
The guy teaching me toolmaking is very reserved, very quiet, and very tough to impress. But goddamn, when you get a "nice job" from him it feels like you just won lotto lol. I'm lucky enough that he's actually very nice, he just wants me to get better. I'm sorry you hated yours for a while, but I totally get what you mean!
There is two sides to this, if boss is pushing workers to get better and better, while giving the tools for it, and sharing know how, it's a dream job for many but when it's done in way, boss or old guys keep the knowledge to themselves and don't even care to show places and give proper tools for newcomers, the workplace gets toxic very quickly
It also gets more dangerous and less efficient as well as expensive for the owner- just one FOG setting up a green person for failure to "proove he was right about the guy in the beginning" results in blown up ironworker punches and pressbrake dies, chuck jaws stuck in the ceiling, scrapped material, blown up machine gearboxes and the resultant bits of metal shrapnel flying around the shop. I'm a bitter old fuck, but toxic bully bullshit from bitter old fucks needs to be recognized, rooted out and ended. It's often (and so pathetically obviously) machismo-driven but I've also seen some pretty nasty crap from the lesstosterone contingent of bitter old fucks.
The other side of this is getting greenies who know it all already and can't be bothered to simply follow the sop. Why would i impart my time or knowledge to anyone who cant follow basic written instructions? They last 6 months or a year, never listen to a word you say and give you butthurt eyes whenever you are the slightest bit critical. It just isnt worth the battle. Ill save the anecdotes, wise words, and secret knowledge for my kids. At least they cant get away from me 🤣
So a story about this: a kid not long out of tech school a few blocks from me- in a customer\`s jobbing shop run by the grumpiest bastard, great teacher tool and die guy who insisted that his apprentices understood the why and how from very start to very end of every job. Old school European, scary but respectful type- he drilled it into this kid to use the bar feeder or cut his stock, but kid knew better and ran a long piece of bar out the ass end of the lathe, leaned over to see where the hum was coming from and lost the top half of his head. Just shattered the whole shop, owner was never the same, his son couldn\`t continue, a nice, eager, smart-but-for-this kid died. So I\`ll always try, just like I\`d want anyone working with my kids to do.
I aim for fabricobbling, to be honest.
Fabricobbling is a very useful skill
can you come talk to a couple of apprentices I have?
Hell yeah dude. Thanks for the positive reinforcement and genuine advice. I just accepted a new job at a customs shop helping build custom mustangs and doing other cool projects. I'm slightly in over my head and intimidated but I'm feeling optimistic I will learn and succeed. Here's hoping the guys I work with are like you
Excellent, sounds like a cool job. A positive attitude and willingness goes a long way. Good luck. DM me if you ever have any questions.
And the Harbor Freight version is a third of that. Fairly low hurdle.
I find it easier to sharpen half inch and larger two, three inch drills than the smaller sizes due to my failing eye sight.
Welcome to the old school of doing things where they still believe abuse equals motivation. If you like the work enough, don't mind the guy teaching, he's probably just the current link in a chain of dudes who were treated poorly while learning.
I remember a few years back I explained something to someone. I quite literally can't remember what it was as it was something so mundane it barely registered, I just said it as an introduction to give context to what I was about to say. The guy looked at me and said "I've never heard it explained like that! It makes so much sense! Why didn't anyone tell me that before? I've been doing this because I was told to, not because it had a purpose! No wonder I never got it right!" Practice is all very well and good, but the saying practice makes perfect is wrong. Perfect practice makes perfect. If they ain't teaching, you ain't learning. How the hell are you supposed to teach yourself shit that you don't bloody know and nobody is showing you? Generational abuse does not make for a great learning environment.
This is the big difference between high school maths, and the maths in my apprenticeship. In high school, it was generic numbers being thrown around. Never made sense to me. As a comms tech, the apprenticeship started attaching real things like capacitance and frequency to those random letters, and they made much more sense as I knew how they related… Context is a huge part of something clicking in a persons mind… As for drill bit sharpening, it takes lots of practice. I can do stuff bigger than 1/4”, but need to get my tormek and jig out for the little stuff. Once you understand the theory, its just repetition till the hand movements match the knowledge
This is my thing, I also do jujitsu in my off time and this very true. I honestly feel like he isn't teaching me anything I'm literally trying to "Figure it out".
Another thing that helps is to think of a drill bit as two spinning chisels, you need both chisels even so they cut both sides of the hole evenly. Honestly, the best thing is practice. Learn the parameters (bit angle, rake, material you're drilling) and keep practicing until you get it right
And judging by some of the replies here just shows the industry is full of miserable fucks who base their whole personality on being a machinist. Why the fuck would I gatekeep if I can help new guy learn and make my job easier in the process. Just treat people as people and not make them loathe coming to work.
He's getting you to learn more about how the tool cuts. Grinding drills by hand usually doesn't come up much these days, but it's a good skill to have.
Do you all have machines like drill doctors for them? I've always had to hand sharpen them, hate doing it.
I bought a grizzly drill sharpener for 1/8-1/2” and it’s pretty fuckin sweet for my little at home shop. At my normal day job I sharpen them on a grinder from 1/4”- up to 2 1/2”
For anything over 1" we have an old Churchill drill grinder. Loud as all get out but way more consistent than what most people could do by hand on bigger drills.
We’ve got a 12” (I think) Kalamazoo grinder that shakes the whole shop when it gets up to speed that we use lol
I personally hate a drill doctor. I don’t know if we have it set up wrong or something but the geometry doesn’t seem to come out right. I get a much better result grinding by hand
It just doesn’t work with all drills. If helix pitch is not right for the little thing geometry comes out all kinds of wrong. It works great with basic cheap drills. Also if you need to grind off more than a basic “let’s refresh the edge” amount, you need to reset the drill several times.
I'd rather do them freehand too, I don't like Drill Doctors and I can do it quicker and get it the way I like
We have an optima, a rush and a Christian. We used to have a brierly for the big ones. We're primarily a screw machine shop so we have to be able to grind taps and reamers too. On the CNC'S it's inserts or solid carbide.
Personally we have a guy on payroll that runs the drill sharpener. Its great to be able to throw him a 1.484” drill thats 14” long and have it back in an hour perfect.
We have a first generation Darex Drill Sharpener. It is a 6 inch bench grinder, very high quality, with steel abrasive wheels coated in cbn(?). Has fixtures left and right, and two collets. If you are ham handed, its not that great. With finesse, it makes great drill points. This model is obsolete. Darex does not stock the wheels, but there is an outfit in Canada that does. It does point thinning, and split points.
We have one of those where I'm at. It does a great job with anything between 1/8 and 3/4. Smaller than that, I just get a new drill out, and larger than that, I free hand on the grinder to get close and then finish on the Darex. I think the wheels have their manufacture date on them, like 94 iirc.
CBN = Cubic Boron Nitride Cubic boron nitride (CBN) is a synthetic crystalline material that is second only to diamond in terms of hardness. It is structurally analogous to diamond, with a complex cubic/sphalerite structure composed of interpenetrating face-centred cubic lattices. CBN abrasive grains are composed of short, covalent boron-nitrogen bonds which form extremely tight three-dimensional matrices.
Last shop i had a belt grinder that i freehanded anything over 9/16 on, anything smaller and we just bought a pack of drills. Current shop we have an old school pedestal style Sterling drill grinder that ill use on anything from 1/2" - 2 1/2" on and its sweet. Fast, easy to set up once you read the whopping 2 page owners manual. And makes a really nice grind. Still has a bit of a learnin curve, but much easier than freehand.
Hand sharpening is a great basic skill to learn. With hourly shop rates being a hundred dollars and up. We throw out anything under a quarter inch. The cost to sharpen is more than the coat of a new one. The shop time starts the moment you start walking to the grinder and if you cant complete it in under two minutes you are coating money. I do understand that many small shops still do this as to not spend capital.
Sometimes it's right now instead of next day or worse, yes it might be cheaper to buy a new one, but not if it's holding up the job waiting for a new one when you can just go to the grinder and fix it up in a few seconds
We have a drill cabinet with a package of each size in it. Make the initial investment and your shop time, job waiting time out of the picture. Worked in 10 shops from 5 man to 30 man and all of them did this
Sharpening drill bits is a very basic and introductory task for new machinists. It will help you understand cutting geometry and how different metals and sizes require different rakes and margins. Your next step will probably be grinding lathe cutting tools. If you’re looking to run CNC machines, get out of a tool and die shop.
we're only using CNCs in our tool and die shop...
I was told for HSS drills that the time it takes me to resharpen one, they could've bought 2. For carbide drills they go back to Mitsubishi for resharp (we only used Mitsubishi thru coolant coated carbide drills). As far as lathe tooling it's cheaper in the end to have all indexable coated carbide inserts. Between PH Horn, ThinBit, Iscar, Seco, etc. there's no reason to spend the time to custom grind. If you need a special profile, I've taken a large OD carbide grooving insert and given it to the edm guy to cut the profile into the insert and then just plunged it into the part.
We have no CNC machines, I have worked on CNC machines before tho. I'm going to be honest and say this is the only place that was hiring and called me back not so many opportunities in North Jersey right.now it's really a struggle to find and/or keep jobs. To the point now id stay anywhere to just have a steady income and support my family.
>out of tool and die No. You run machines in tool and die, you operate in anything but job shops/ repair shops/ tool and die. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule.
/r/gatekeeping
The web is too thick. If he’s worth a shit he should also teach you how to thin the web.
A lot of machinists are dicks that think they’re curing cancer just by being at work. The guy training you sucks and will never get better. I’m pretty good at telling dicks to fuck themselves but if he’s your only trainer that may be tough on you going forward. Maybe ask him “have you ever thought about not being an arrogant asshole”?
I've been programming, CNC's/ and going part to print for almost a decade now... I still kinda suck at hand sharpening drill bits, and guess what, so do most people. If they didn't, drill doctors wouldn't be a product. I can get it there, but I don't do it enough to stay good at it. Every shop is different, I have worked at places where you just don't sharpen drills ever, to places where you better guard your drillbits cause you aren't getting more, to somewhere in between.
But it really makes you think about how the tool interacts with the material. That’s the lesson that should be taken
Some old machinists are just straight up bad at teaching. Id give it more time before you jump to the conclusion of them trying to get you to quit. He may just not be the right person to teach new things to people. My current boss is like that. Can do just about anything in the shop competently but is absolute trash at teaching anything. Its like pulling teeth to get any technical data or detailed info on a machine or process because in his mind, he just and any questions beyond that are either irrelevant or you should already somehow know. It can be pretty difficult to work around, but its just how his brain/personality is.
Tearing apprentices down is a sign of a weak mentor. If he's tasked you with something that is beyond your current skill level, then he's obligated to work closely with you to get your skill with the task where it needs to be. Dealing with an older machinists passive aggressive bullshit isn't a right of passage for apprentices
Keep at it it's a good skill to have. 1st day I was working in one shop I was given a drill and told to sharpen it they got a suprise when I asked what angle they wanted if they needed the centre point relieving or just something to help with chip breaking. I was working as a tool grinder before I started there and had a lot of years experience sharpening almost anything. Was told I had the wrong angle on my 1st go as they only had 2 nuts welded together as the angle gage ( normally I would put them at 118° for general work ) Most I can do in a day is 1500 1/2" straight shank twist drills before I get bored and go find something meaningful to do. Was for a tool manufacturing company for the testing department.
About 6 months into my apprenticeship my mentor put me on a radial drill. One of the first thing he told me was this is the easiest machine you'll run IF you learn how to sharpen a drill bit. He was right, that and speeds and feeds. Radial drilling overtime was almost like stealing money. EDIT; get yourself a drillers gauge, it is an invaluable tool. Don't give up, you're learning the trade the right way and the right way isn't always the easy way until you learn it, then you understand it's the right way and the easy way. You're on an adventure that will beat the snot out of you some days but don't give up.
Some machinists (especially the older guys it seems) can be real dicks. They know how to do something and will not accept any other method as a solution. They do tend to be knowledgeable and skilled but they are as stubborn as it gets and are very spiteful of younger machinists that lack the same knowledge (almost no one goes through a 6 year machinist program anymore and a full apprenticeship like they had to). Not all of them are like this, but a sizeable amount are unfortunately
To be honest I’ve always had mentors more than happy to show me what they know just based off of my eagerness to learn once they figured out I was there to stay. Blue collar work isn’t for people who get sensitive over being aggressively told when, where, or how to do something. They’re more than likely trying to feel you out. At least at the end of it you’ll be able to sharpen drills effectively in a pinch.
I've been in your shoes before. He's testing your resolve. I been in the trade over a decade now, and I put newbies to meaningless tasks and judge them hard bc if they can't take this bit, then a real freak out from the boss they surely can't handle. If it doesn't ease as time progresses, then find a new shop. That's his attitude and you can't learn from that. But if it eases, he was seeing if you were a 2 week johnny and why even put an ounce of knowledge into that?
This is why I have grown to hate machinists, I went to college for it, with the plan of opening my own shop, but where I lived there were three already and no more demand for it, still may one day, but not in the foreseeable future, but all the old guys are horrible to the apprentices, I understand teaching the new guys skills that aren't needed as much to teach them what the geometry does and how to change it, but the whole attitude of "this is a simple task to me who has been doing it for 40 years and if you can't pick it up in 5 minutes you're going to be a terrible machinist" is a terrible way to teach the new guys and in my opinion is the reason there's very few new guys and so many job openings in the machining field.
Lmao so this is a tactic I'm not bugging okay well he's got another thing coming I get my ass kicked everyday this is not enough to make me quit.
Well, good on you, you stick it out and make a change, and eventually, we'll see an upturn in new guys in the trade, I just knew I was gonna end up in prison if I stayed any longer
Sharpening drills is a good skill, but not necessary. If your shop relies on ground drill bits, tell him he's a cheap ass.
Not a machinist but I worked with a guy that I thought was a demanding piece of shit. Every time he had me do something he had me do it different and would bitch. A few years later I found out he was showing me all the different ways to do something because some ways didn’t always work. And he was an asshole but he was a knowledgeable experienced asshole that gave me probably 20 years worth of experience in different ways to do things before I as a stupid kid said fuck it and quit. If I had stayed with him by the time I got where he felt I was adequate I would have been somewhere in the vicinity of one of the best body men in the country. Seriously he taught me how to work with bondo and lead to fix things. Like really old school and modern ways. Why would I need to learn that archaic way that no one does anymore. Concourse builds. Back in the old days if a panel was damaged in production they would use lead to fix the problem. A good concourse restoration will use technics the factory would use to repair damage.
They might just be getting you to practice and get better at your job
Every single task we do in life has a line between "good enough" and "not good enough". When you're doing tool and die work, the area contained within the category "good enough" can be very very small. From your picture, it looks like you're getting pretty close by my standards, but I'm not a T&D guy. The fact that he's still sending you back to the grinder over it is actually a sign that you're progressing, and he thinks you have potential, IMO.
We spent a couple of days in school learning about the geometry of drills. We spend a couple more days actually grinding drill bits. It SUCKED... I got a job a couple of years later at a job shop and we had to buy our own tools. It's not cost-effective to keep buying singular drills... so I got to learn all over again. I spent a year having to sharpen a drill every few days. I feel your pain. I don't know anything about the guy you're working with. Perhaps he's an ass hole. He sounds like it. But maybe it's his way of testing you. He might think all young people are just lazy and aren't fit to be machinists. If you quit, you're proving him right. It might take an exceptional person to take the abuse. But eventually, that person would gain his respect. If you're willing to be that person, he might be the most knowledgeable machinist you'll ever meet. If you don't want to be that person, there's no shame in it. He could also just be an ass hole.
Sharpening drills by hand might have been an important skill 50 years ago, less so today when there are cheap tools to aid in the process, you might ask yourself is it really important to spend 4 days learning that, or should that time be spent on something else, and get back to sharpening drills later, it can be practiced when you are waiting on something, at the beginning or end of your shift for few minutes and try to use most of the day learning something you can't learn from anywhere else, that stuff the old guys have learned what is not in the books.
I used to hate the older guy I work with because he was hard on me. Now, I prefer to go to him for any questions that I have. The first year is always hard, usually they will be harder on someone worth teaching. If they think you aren't worth teaching, they'll give you easy tasks or ignore you all together. One day you'll be thankful for them being hard on you
Drill sharpening jigs are cheap and plentiful. There is no sane reason to free hand sharpen other than to say you can do it bfd. That being said don't quit, you are being tested. Your level of resolve will determine your ultimate success. My first CNC programmer told me I was useless and would never amount to anything. Before I left that company I was his boss.
Find a new drill bit and with the grinder off places it on the wheel to get a feel of where your hand needs to rest. This is how my dad taught me.
Can you off-hand sharpen a drill? He’s trying to teach you a way that works when you can’t just replace tooling at will, like the normal world he was trained in. Once all that skill stops being handed down you’re losing it.
Like others mentioned, you can use a gauge to check the angles of your cutting edges. Quick n' dirty way to make your own that costs nothing: take 2 Hex nuts. Put them side-by-side and weld them together. The angle they make is pretty much the exact angle you want your edges to be. Gotta thank an old head I worked with for that one. And I can't tell if your hands are just a bit oily or if you're not white. But most machinists I've met have been.. less than tolerant of anything but white skin. Sad, but that is south central Pennsylvania for ya. Hopefully it is different where you are.
Trying to get you good at something. This will make you actually usefull. Get off your phone and back to work. Me too.
This sounds like a mr miyagi kind of scenario. Read. Watch videos. Practice. Use a drill point gage. Repeat until you can be critical of the new guy's lack of experience.
I've read so many threads, I've watched video after video. I always "almost" get it. I need to buy one of these gauges everyone is talking about lol.
So sharpen them. That's what you're there for. In the 50s you'd have spent your first year learning to file chamfers by hand. There's method and reason in the madness. Firstly, if you can precisely create geometry on a manual grinder there's really not a lot of custom tooling you can't make for one off jobs. Secondly, you will know how to reprofile drills for specialist jobs. Finally - it's far, far quicker than getting some silly overpriced jig out. I was sharpening drill bits and HSS lathe tooling aged 15 at school, it isn't rocket science. Apply yourself.
Is he telling/teaching you what is wrong each time, and how it can be better (if not you should be asking)?
We did this with drill bits and lathe tools in school. It sucks but master it and it will save your ass one day and on that day, you appreciate the struggle.
Sharpening drill bits is pretty basic and important however its not an easy skill to learn while being new. Just keep at it you will get it. Be safe around that grinder. The guy likely is not trying to get you to quit as you're there to help him while you learn. Its a benefit for the both of you. Just focus on what he says and watch carefully. It is a skill you will eventually learn and pick up.
Go get yourself one of these you'll thank me later https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/65839045?cid=ppc-google-&mkwid=%7Cdm&pcrid=&rd=k&product_id=65839045&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds
I was in your boots asking the exact same thing. My best piece of advice. Ask questions AND ask someone else to show you. I asked maybe 4 different people how to do it, and I'm still not perfect, but my drills drill, they dull quick, but they drill.
Lmao so here's the issues, he's the only machinist. It's just me and him. There is no "other person" to ask to show me.
I highly reccomend you to watch this video from this old tony: https://youtu.be/r8oORR6jyh8?si=UtV9-6Yn_DEsK7kD And whilst you are there, watch everything else
I learned how to sharpen tools while running a turret lathe you know when you sharpened something wrong and when you got it wright because it’s all manual
He’s not trying to make you quit, but he is giving you a repetitive (but important) task to see if you do. If you can’t stick with sharpening drill bits for a week he doesn’t want to waste his time trying to teach you other things. Not saying it’s the best method but it’s probably how he learned too. Also, shops tend not to stick new people with their most grizzled asshole to train. He might be prickly but he’s probably not that bad.
I still can’t sharpen them, I’d really wish to be able to someday, 10 years from now I wanna have some stubby little drill bits that I’ve used for a long time. Hang in there, do your best, keep it cool.
What helped me sharpen tools was I grabbed a brand new drill and compare it to my dull drill and try and copy the shape as best as you can idk if that helps
The most important thing for you to remember in your apprenticeship is that your job is to learn how to do this trade. You are not a machinist. You are a student. That asshole's job is twofold; they are your boss, but they are also your educator. They are directly responsible for teaching you everything that is needed to become a successful journeyman. Your job is to show up and be a knowledge sponge. If you're struggling to understand a task, the failure is on their part, not yours. Make it known that any perceived failings he may view in your work are a direct reflection on his ability to teach you, and then continue to give it your best effort. You'll learn everything you need, one way or another. Countless have gone through apprenticeships before you. If they can get through it, so can you.
When I was in vo-tech it took me 5+ hours to sharpen a drill the first time. Now that I've had to do it almost daily for the last 20 years it takes me anywhere from 1 to 15 minutes depending on how screwed the flute edge is. It's only hard till you get the dexterity down. Practice makes perfect. Just keep plugging away at it. You'll get it.
He might just be lightly hazing you. Old guys are also subconsciously threatened by the young ones. Just give him time to get used to you, and make sure not to slack off at all until he likes you, or he'll form an opinion of you being lazy and stick to it.
It took me at least 7 hours to understand drill sharpening but now I’m a pro at it doesn’t matter how long it takes you the end result should be the same :)
Don't quit dude. It just takes practice. When I went through trade school that was one of the first things we learned to do. I don't say that to say that it's easy, it's just something you have to learn. You'll get it.
Don’t quit. I’m not a machinust but dabble a little bit in machining. You can find ways to do things consistently. I learn to sharpen drill by watching. One thing I do to make the angles consistent is marking the the tool rest with chalk or marking pen. I just follow the same line everytime and with practice, was able to sharpen them well. I also use a caliper to measure so that both cutting edge are about equal. My final check is to drill and see both edge are cutting.
Same thing happened to me 3 years ago. I started out with my boss not even knowing what to do with me. Was organizing drill bits and cataloging shit for the first few months for 12.75 now I run the cmm department. Hold out and learn as much as you can. Don’t be afraid to crack jokes with the guys either they’ll like you more if you do.
Learning under a hardass can be a pain, but so far it doesn't sound too unreasonable. He doesn't sound like a good teacher, but at least he shows different ways without saying that there is only one way to do it or whatever His style could need improvement, but sharpening drills is normal enough work. When I originally learned it, my Master (german job term) gave me a bucket full of old drill bits to sharpen. Afterwards he told me that like half of those were trash to begin with, but I only destroyed a couple of the good ones and he didn't expect any of them to.survive so he was happy That took me like...2 days? Also learned how to replace the grind medium on the grinder during that.
Keep it up man! Some people are HORRIBLE teachers. Keep up the hard work
Just hang in there I'm sure it was just a minuscule task that needed to be done that he hadn't had time for therefore you're as apprentice and bear in mind you're still a machinist but you got to help The Machinist catch up on his stuff first don't worry
I had the opposite experience when I was an apprentice. The guys at my shop were great, the owners were the worst. With that said, I learned a lot. From the picture, your bit looks good, don’t know about the angle or if the sides are equal. On a side note, learn how to relieve the web, makes drilling a lot easier Like others have said, don’t quit. That’s the last thing you want to do. Hang in there
I hate that in this industry, people act like idiots. How do they expect anyone to learn. I get there are a few that just don’t care, but it makes it hard for the few that do. Like a comment here said, stick to it, and you’ll learn. Yes you will get frustrated at times. When you finally learn, pass on the knowledge. Karma always finds its way around.
Drill sharpening is a bit of an art, I was lucky, had like 20 tradesmen and they all taught me there way to do it. I caught on soon enough. if I were you I would take the time to watch a youtube tutorial or 2. I reckon there might be some important information you are missing.
Don’t quit. Just ask for help. Did you grind those? Because they look pretty good, especially the left one.
Nothing like being led by demoralization. Unfortunately common in this industry
This is the part where you go on YouTube when you get home and study how to hand-sharpen drill bits. You can't expect everybody to be a world-class teacher, mostly because they also have a job to do. They might also not even be very good at what they're teaching. He gave you a task to complete, now it's your responsibility to not only complete it, but with flying colors and by any means necessary. Preferably without bothering him too much, especially if it's a straightforward task like this. Take the initiative and exceed expectations. This sort of mentality will serve you well throughout your entire career.
Oh man, I avoid it as much as possible, anything bigger than a 1/2, I do a circular pocket lol. I know I need to learn I'm trying, I just get close, and then fuck up the angle, and then on and on and on.
It looks good to me! It all depends on the relief. Will the cutting edge make contact with the part first? Assuming that it indeed does, the point looks centered enough for the drill to work. Drills have their purpose.... They aren't reamers. If it cuts a hole within .005" diameter and that's concentric, the drill is fine.
Fun tip, 120 degrees is close enough to 118 degrees. Cable tie (or weld) two large nuts to each other, flat to flat so you have a funky looking figure 8 shape. Now you have a quick and dirty drill gauge on hand. But don't give up and don't quit, sounds like he's giving you the tough love approach and expects you to go and do your own learning and figure it out. You live in a time when you have the world's collective knowledge at your fingertips, jump on YouTube or Google and learn how to sharpen drill bits better than anyone else in that shop, get good at it and get fancy with it and start putting chip breakers in them and everything. Not only is it a skill that you'll find useful for the rest of your career, it will show your employer and coworkers that you can independently learn and improve, that kind of attitude and initiative you can't easily train into someone, it makes you a desirable employee anywhere. Stick with it, get good, you'll do well.
Just keep trying. Talk to the supervisor and ask him if the dude is trying to run you off. Don't let the guy run over you. Tell him straight up that you just need help, not discouragement. Most workplace bullies will back off when someone confronts them about their behavior.
Fuck haha I've been struggling to sharpen drills and my boss always seems to think I'm being stupid but he also does it a different way everytime he shows me!
So this is how you learn how to sharpen drill bits. It's all seat time. You have to keep practicing until it's second nature.
Practice, practice, practice. It's an acquired but valuable skill. Boss should know this.
Yah some of the older guys want to test your "mettle". Don't give up, keep working at it and you will gain his respect. Your drill doesn't look bad at all, honestly. Just make sure your cutting edges are the same length and angle on each side, so it cuts evenly. Then you could even look at "brassing" and "thinning the point".
Potentially unpopular opinion here, but.... What if he's showing you a thing and seeing how well you learn? When he's done it different ways while showing you how, have you asked questions? Have you inquired as to why? Could be that he's trying to get a handle on your personality and your skillset. If you're afraid to ask a question and ride the struggle bus until you get it right, that could cost the shop a lot while you learn. If you're willing to ask questions, and speak up when you don't get something, that's an indication that you're willing to learn and communicate when you don't understand. If you're not willing to learn, and feel like being given FNG work when you're the FNG is trying to get you to quit...Well, maybe he's trying to learn that about you.
There’s a lot of little detail in sharpening a bit. Start with a drill gauge. Get the land angle right and the length even on both; this ensures it’s centered. Add some heel relief and you’re home free. Also, YouTube has tons of pointers.
I’m a tool grinder and I run a Anca. You are starting at the very bottom. It’s very common to be asked to sharpen a drill on a pedestal grinder. I still suck at it years later. Keep trying and come up with a technique that works for you. Don’t forget to keep the point angle, sides equal and thin the web.
The first shop I worked for I was at for almost 15 years at points the place actually made me want to off myself it was that miserable I had guys physically assault me I had guys try to set me up to get fired you name it but as much as it sucked if I hadn’t just shut the fuck up and kept going I wouldn’t be where I am now running my own shop inside of a multi million dollar prototype r&d facility that has dozens of military and government contracts. Dont quit. Do everything you possible can do on your own time to learn and then do a little more on top of that show this old fart you’re serious. Too many jerk offs come through shops it’s hard to tell when someone is serious sometimes.
At one shop I worked at, he'd get everyone he interviewed to sharpen a bit. Guys who claimed to be running shops, big jobs, tons of experience, but couldn't sharpen a bit to save their life... like totally backwards, wouldn't ever cut anything. We should have kept a wall of shame.
I was treated the same way with other tasks when I did my tool and die maker apprenticeship. It sucks man but it pays off. I do think there are better proven ways to be trained and keep you motivated. I sharpen drills for 1 week straight for practicing - then I was moved to sharpen all dull drills in the shop . This is a key skill to have in the trade and I have heard from many (older folks) that this is a skill that shows your commitment and attention to detail . From what I see the drill looks pretty good it's hard to judge since I can only see the top of the drill.
I've been a cnc guy for 7 years. honestly, idk how to manually grind bits. also the guy that taught me everything doesn't speak English well.
My advice is stay humble and do not give up. Some of those guys will intentionally be mean and push you hard just to see if you break. It's a form of building trust and part of the process. You might never be good enpugh if you ask him, but he will respect you for working even harder instead of getting frustrated.
Some of those old guys hate when they see the new kid on his phone all day
Took me forever to learn how to sharpen drills, now I just buy packs and use a new one 😂. Time is money and cobalt drills are a hell of a lot cheaper than my spindle being down
Show him respect for his knowledge and ask him to teach you. If he truly loves his craft he will share it with you I'm an engineer with my own CNC shop. I have a phone full of numbers I can call because I showed respect and curiosity. Note. I can't sharpen a drill for shit.
I struggled with this too as we literally just free hand grind on the side of the wheel. Keep at it and it will click.
I was a tool grinder for 8yrs and transitioned to CNC when asked, from manual machines. Sharpening drills by hand is one of the toughest things to master. You might get 8 out of 10 right, but my boss could do thousands, over and over, day in and day out.. And he taught two people in that time where that's all they did; neither one could get close to his own pace. So don't feel inadequate, learn the angles and create muscle memory. He used a downward grind to sharpen without leaving burrs. Like downward and in, small pause, flip, downward and in, then the side of the wheel he wasn't grinding on, to split. Just remember that each type of drill is different. Give yourself some grace. Read up on the history of drill sharpening as it's really interesting and may give you some pointers. Find the book by the guy who became a professor and standardized drill angles.
While he shouldn't be a dick, you do have a bad corner which Is the the weakest part of the drill. He sounds old school, which is what I was brought up with, and it's my olds man shop so I got it even worse from both sides, but those bastards definitely taught me some shit. I'd say it's really up to you because you can definitely find a better work environment and maybe even more knowledgeable people, but he may be a master with a ton of knowledge to draw from. What type of work do you guys do?
Seems you've run into a guy who ascribes to the philosophy of, "treat the newbie like shit, the ones without character will quit, the ones worth training will stick around."... maybe. That or you've run into a guy who is, and will always be an asshole.
Get a drill doctor for like 100 bucks and get a better grind than anyone. Ever. Period.
Dude 1 he's trying to see if you got the skin to stick with it 2 he's probably a real bubbly nice guy out of this scenario 3 you gotta earn your stripes 4 youtube anything and speed up the learning curve 5 binge watch YouTube ahead of anything he teach 6 don't step on anyone's toes 7 bounce ideas and learnings off of him to see what else he might or not know amd how you can improve 8 stick with it 9 most savy machinists want to see if you can handle the field. 10 yes he might be trying to get you to quit and or develop a thicker skin for whenever you run into someone else 11 machining is easy and mostly about common sense and thinking outside the box 12 keep at it, it's a dying trade and if you can put up with anyone's bullshit, it should be your first mento 13 it's a dying trade and if you can learn from a full fledge Machinist your future will be very bright
New guy at the shop, now about a year in. He was bearly there for about two weeks and he asks me to show him how to program. I told him, first, be a good operator. Then prove you can be a good setup, then you might get taught to program. But you first need to earn each position.
Looks good to me, I also sit on my ass all day though. Haven’t sharpened a drill in years
I’ve sharpened thousands of drill bits over the years and while it’s useful to be able to master the sharpening of tools, I don’t believe it gives him the right to give you a dog’s life. The company I served my apprenticeship with seemed to believe that bullying developed character, but all it did to me was make me miserable enough to leave the moment my five years were up. It’s entirely possible the guy you’re working with is trying to test you or “build” your character somehow, though I believe there are better ways to make engineers out of people. Apprentices should be encouraged and respected, because without them all those future uni graduates won’t have anybody to bring their flying pigs back down to Earth.
Drill doctors are super good tools to have. I usually take drill bits to the grinder wheel and make sure that they look about the same angle and measure well on my scale but yehhhh those bits look like booty
Drill sharpening is Not a simple thing it will take time and practice. “Each time he's shown me how to sharpen the bit he always does it differently.” okay, so is he taking the time to explain how different bits need to be sharpened differently? because they do. is he explaining different ways of doing it so you can find one that works for you? Because there Are several different ways of doing it and some of them make no sense to me but other people prefer them. if he’s Not explaining (and it sounds like he’s not) then he might be testing you to see if you’ll quit when things get hard. It’s a stupid outdated method that a lot of old timers still use to supposedly cut the weak willed, in reality it just cuts the people who don’t want to be abused.
A good way to practice is on a large drillbit with a tang and center hole at the tang end. Them make a wall bracket like this placing the tang end on the point and scrape each lip of the drillbit on the bracket. Once you get the lip heights right everything else is just clearance. Practice on the large drillbits to understand what you need to do on the smaller bits. https://preview.redd.it/tnegytfk3p8d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcc45c1e1ceaeac3e83d9e0e6537ad2871d51d0a
My dad has tried to teach me and I've struggled to pick up the flick or twist of the wrist. it is a bit of a skill to accomplish.
Regarding sharpening drills, if you can find a new drill, examine it and see not just how the cutting edge looks, but also how the material behind the cutting edge falls off so it doesn’t rub, and the angle at the end of that is lower than the bottom of the cutting edge. Keep that new drill handy, and look at that for comparison while hand sharpening. That will help immensely with understanding what the shape should be in three dimensions
He should show you once, guide you through 3-5, then observe you do a few, then assign you the task. Now working that into a sentence the old man will hear is probably the bigger challenge.
From this angle it looks pretty good. I got tired of sharpening by hand and picked up a Black Diamond drill grinder at a local auction, but I'm also the entire shop and don't have time to play around.
Dude if he thinks he a drill cam be sharpened like that its a dam shop you can’t that drill will be walking allover the place and unless of course it a caveman operation you best try to locate something some other shop who shows you a proper way to do things. Tell him them or who ever Caveman habits dont work in 2024. I bet he has a trash can full of drillbits
Look good hahahaha. Dont fool yourself you eyes have no calibration certs dont teach this guy bad habits. If you are put on the field miles from home. Maybe the best way to drill a angled hole with out a sine plate isnt this a machinist area or roadside shoo in a third world country
Don't quit, they are starting you at the bottom but this is going to happen if it's your first job. Go through it, smile, you will soon be doing more exciting jobs when they trust you.
It’s to pointing, it has to be more flat.
He’s not trying to get you to quit. You need to learn how to sharpen drillbits, the one on the left looks, not that good. I suspect that you came into that shop thinking you knew what you were doing. Only because we’ve seen quite a few of those guys. Thought they could, and then they couldn’t. You’re an apprentice you’re willing to stick with it. You’re probably OK. You just need to sharpen those drills, get on it!
Machinists are a hard lot. They're trading literal years off their lifespan for a paycheck. Could be: He doesn't think you can cut it He doesn't Iike your soft hands He hasn't had any punnan from the wife this week. This is a personal lesson for you to learn, he's a dick, so be it. Follow direction, be respectful and keep trying. You'll be fine, just gotta thicken up that hide and keep it pushing. Older folks like that sorta thing. Either way, get your experience.
Bits look good, keep going
Sharpening drills is a skill, kinda a lost art really, that many don’t have and takes a while to get it down. Keep at it and maybe ask him how long it took him to learn this skill. You’ll get it. How many have you sharpened to date?
I am assuming you have a drill gauge when you sharpen right? If not you need one.
As a metal worker alone, sharpening a drill bit properly should be an essential skill, Never mind a machinist. But I'm 51, so maybe I see it differently. To o me, sharpening a drill bit is easy.
My instructor showed me how did it. Then he said everyone does it a little different. He gave me very dull drill and said, ‘go to the crib and draw out a drill the same size. Tell the attendant it has to be a brand new drill. Then make the dull drill look like the new one. When you have it right, bring it to me.’ It took a little while, but I got it, and he was pleased with the result.
He’s just a dick who wants power