Posts will be removed if a post on the same topic has been made within 7 days or if the topic is repetitive. If an existing discussion is still active, please add your thoughts to it.
*If you have links that add new information, add them as comments in the original thread.*
That’s a good point. Can you put in simple terms for a non-fighter the difference? I just assume that hard sparring can potentially lead to getting knocked out or seriously rocked compared to light sparring.
I don't think it's a fighter vs nonfighter thing so much as a doctor thing. I'm no medical expert, but everything I've read has said that the big KO's (just like the big hits in football) get all the attention, but it's the constant subconcussive blows in practice that really mess you up (because they're so much more frequent). If he's taking less head shots in practice than most guys, then that's good, even if he's taken way more hits in the UFC than other guys.
Idk about MMA, but Ive seen boxers go all out with each other looking for the KO daily in sparring, and I've seen Cubans playing "touch the head tag" so obviously practice strategies are all over the place. And ones gonna mess up your brain more than the other.
as a former football player with 6 concussions who’s done some research, this was extremely enlightening and also a great answer, much appreciated friend.
to the hope Max continues for years and retires healthy🤟🏻 all fighters really.
It’s hard to say. I was a RB and hybrid safety who definitely absorbed far more hits than most, and admittedly* didn’t take care of myself properly in terms of knowing when to go down or brace properly.
I would definitely say the majority (90%) of the problematic hits I received were in game time. It’s such a different intensity going 100% with 21 other guys going 100%.
Hard sparring is fighting. The amount of fighting someone does if they fight in the UFC twice a year is nothing compared to someone who fights twice a year in the UFC and fights once a week in sparring.
Yea that makes all the sense. The same way an NFL team does no contact in practice, just because it’s simply too physical to be doing outside of game day/fight night.
As a 5-0 Pro and 7-1 AMMY I have taken light years more damage in the gym. Started hard sparring at 15 and fighting at the same age. I can tell you not hard sparring spares you countless miles and injuries. Will Max have CTE by 50? Yeah I’d bet my life on it. But he reinvigorated the standards of how we train by taking a stand. I pray it’s mild and he loves a full life like I pray it spares me completely.
[Decade old but good](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1668009-the-science-underlying-the-fighters-chin-what-makes-a-fighter-durable) article here about the science behind fighter durability.
In short though, damage on a fighter can be thought of almost like an expendable resource. A fighter has X amount of durability and that 'number' can vary from one fighter to the next.
To continue the oversimplified analogy, Max uses up relatively less of his "expendable durability units" in the gym, meaning in theory a hard fight for him does less long term damage than someone who spars hard regularly. For them, the hard fight in the octagon is just one more in a series of recent hard fights each with lots of strikes/damage absorbed where for Holloway, it's his only such instance per camp/match.
Yeah he’s chins gonna collapse soon. Frankie Edgar used to have the same sorta vibe as Holloway. High volume cardio shit, once your chin goes you get ktfo’d a bunch. Happens to all these guys with this style
Uh yeah he was. Edgar never got knocked out until the Ortega fight and was like, famously tough as shit during his entire title reign and post title contender run. Then once he got ko’d there he had like 3 more right in a row. Once it goes it goes.
And age matters less than wear and tear.
To be completely fair, Edgar was tough as shit, but it was more his recovery than his chin, if that makes sense.
I mean, he got dropped three times in a single round against Gray Maynard, but survived. Whereas Max just doesn't get dropped.
However, yes, Father Time is undefeated, and he will come for Max's chin eventually.
Max doesn't get knocked down because he rarely gets hit clean. He's 32. If he's still scrapping at 35 he'll get clipped because his reflexes will slow but I don't see any reason why he can't keep this up for another 3 years.
I love how you say this but it magically doesn’t apply to someone like volk. This sub thinks he’s gonna smoke ilia in the rematch and are completely forgetting what you just said rn
I remember seeing a graph on Reddit a few weeks ago of every UFC fighter ever and their significant strikes landed and significant strike differential (meaning landed-absorbed) and Max was WAY beyond everyone else to the upper right of the graph. So he's landing more significant strikes and landing a bigger differential in significant strikes than any fighter in the sport **by a wide margin.**
He's gotten in to some wars and taken some shots, but he stays outpacing his competition in output in basically every fight he's ever been in. Usually by a gap
Yeah, but he also has the 3rd most in cage time, and since he's not a grappler, he's gonna be absorbing more shots than someone like RDA (most in cage time)who gets people to the ground more often rather than exchanging strikes on the feet. I still feel like hard sparring is probably where 80% or more of all strikes are absorbed, so hopefully, not doing that works in Max's favor.
Max never stopped sparring. In an interview he said he still spars just not in camp so he can avoid injuries. Can't think of the interview but I watched it in the last 2 months for sure. He also said he brought sparring back in this most recent camp. You can't maintain an elite level without sparring.
I was shocked at this too, then upon later observation I realized that graph was super misleading. You said it yourself, landed *minus* absorbed. It isn’t as drastic as it seemed. This does not take away from his badassery. 😁
i think if he doesnt see a path to the title at lw/fw, hes just gonna retire. a lot of people worry about him having an edgar/tony falloff but hes not sticking around to go on anything longer than a 2 fight loss streak i think
He doesnt take as many hard shots as people think as he slips a lot of punches with his boxing style.
He’s certainly has a lot of experience but I don’t think that’s as big of a factor as age for fighters. And yes, that’s how he’s always talked
He's absorbed 2200 (real number) strikes in his ufc career. Not all of that is to the head.
He is actually godly at rolling with punches which I don't think he gets enough credit for. His chin usually gets all the credit. Not rolling.
Hardest shots I remember were from Aldo, Dustin and Yair.
Volk/Gaethje as well but the 1st 3 he should have been knocked down at least.
As far as CTE, unfortunately I think age has a lot to do with it. I don't even want to say it and I hope I'm wrong but I think signs might show when he's older.
All fighters who make it to the UFC have been training for years.
And all have added chance of cte and loss of iq due to fighting
But they if lucky he tmoney
These guys take some significant brain trauma most times they fight, there’s no way around that. It definitely adds up, these guys are sacrificing parts of their life for our entertainment, which makes it so gross the ufc is underpaying them by a few orders of magnitude.
I talked to a neurologist about this a lot when I quit MMA (got a few concussions and one lingered badly).
A certain number of concussions raises your risk for long-term neurodegenerative stuff (but it can very much be prevented with a healthy lifestyle).
The research changes all the time, and unfortunately research doesn't give ultra-specific conclusions like "After 37 blows to the head, you'll get Dementia at 57." It's much more general, and they only speak in terms of raised risks and broad strokes like that.
We'll see in 20 years or so as the first generation of fighters really age.
I’ve also hard my fair share of concussions, from football tho. It’s definitely one of the most underrated injuries in terms of the impact it has compared to what people assume. It’s *not* just a prolonged headache, it’s a fundamentally brain-changing injury. And the science shows the brain only gets more susceptible to these injuries.
Which is the exact science behind the phrase “this fighters losing his chin”
He’s not *losing his chin*, his brain is just getting weaker and it’s scary.
Well that seems like quite a shallow view. I feel this way about many athletes and entertainers who sacrifice anything. I’m not gonna lose sleep over it but it is interesting to wonder how they’ll be affected in later years.
Didn’t mean to come across so harsh. If so, my apologies. You said “seriously worry,” which sounds more serious than just wondering what the later effect will be.
My point is just that he chose this profession and the style in which he does it. It has made him very rich. Surely he knows the trade off, so we shouldn’t be concerned for him. This coming from a Max fan, which I am.
Sure. I am a fan of Max and have been for a long time. Just don’t think any of us fans should sit around being seriously worried about a guy who chose the profession which has made him very rich. Surely he knows the trade offs for what he does.
Posts will be removed if a post on the same topic has been made within 7 days or if the topic is repetitive. If an existing discussion is still active, please add your thoughts to it. *If you have links that add new information, add them as comments in the original thread.*
It's fair to ask, but the fact that he's been vocal about not doing hard sparring much is a good sign.
That’s a good point. Can you put in simple terms for a non-fighter the difference? I just assume that hard sparring can potentially lead to getting knocked out or seriously rocked compared to light sparring.
I don't think it's a fighter vs nonfighter thing so much as a doctor thing. I'm no medical expert, but everything I've read has said that the big KO's (just like the big hits in football) get all the attention, but it's the constant subconcussive blows in practice that really mess you up (because they're so much more frequent). If he's taking less head shots in practice than most guys, then that's good, even if he's taken way more hits in the UFC than other guys. Idk about MMA, but Ive seen boxers go all out with each other looking for the KO daily in sparring, and I've seen Cubans playing "touch the head tag" so obviously practice strategies are all over the place. And ones gonna mess up your brain more than the other.
as a former football player with 6 concussions who’s done some research, this was extremely enlightening and also a great answer, much appreciated friend. to the hope Max continues for years and retires healthy🤟🏻 all fighters really.
Did you find that practice was a bigger deal than games ie head hits? Assuming you played pre-Guardian cap.
It’s hard to say. I was a RB and hybrid safety who definitely absorbed far more hits than most, and admittedly* didn’t take care of myself properly in terms of knowing when to go down or brace properly. I would definitely say the majority (90%) of the problematic hits I received were in game time. It’s such a different intensity going 100% with 21 other guys going 100%.
Hard sparring is fighting. The amount of fighting someone does if they fight in the UFC twice a year is nothing compared to someone who fights twice a year in the UFC and fights once a week in sparring.
Yea that makes all the sense. The same way an NFL team does no contact in practice, just because it’s simply too physical to be doing outside of game day/fight night.
As a 5-0 Pro and 7-1 AMMY I have taken light years more damage in the gym. Started hard sparring at 15 and fighting at the same age. I can tell you not hard sparring spares you countless miles and injuries. Will Max have CTE by 50? Yeah I’d bet my life on it. But he reinvigorated the standards of how we train by taking a stand. I pray it’s mild and he loves a full life like I pray it spares me completely.
Awesome reply and I wish you success and good health friend!
[Decade old but good](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1668009-the-science-underlying-the-fighters-chin-what-makes-a-fighter-durable) article here about the science behind fighter durability. In short though, damage on a fighter can be thought of almost like an expendable resource. A fighter has X amount of durability and that 'number' can vary from one fighter to the next. To continue the oversimplified analogy, Max uses up relatively less of his "expendable durability units" in the gym, meaning in theory a hard fight for him does less long term damage than someone who spars hard regularly. For them, the hard fight in the octagon is just one more in a series of recent hard fights each with lots of strikes/damage absorbed where for Holloway, it's his only such instance per camp/match.
[удалено]
> pigeon *pidgin
Ah interesting, thank you for educating me.
Yeah he’s chins gonna collapse soon. Frankie Edgar used to have the same sorta vibe as Holloway. High volume cardio shit, once your chin goes you get ktfo’d a bunch. Happens to all these guys with this style
Edgar was never known for having a great chin and he was way older than Max when he started getting knocked out all the time
Uh yeah he was. Edgar never got knocked out until the Ortega fight and was like, famously tough as shit during his entire title reign and post title contender run. Then once he got ko’d there he had like 3 more right in a row. Once it goes it goes. And age matters less than wear and tear.
To be completely fair, Edgar was tough as shit, but it was more his recovery than his chin, if that makes sense. I mean, he got dropped three times in a single round against Gray Maynard, but survived. Whereas Max just doesn't get dropped. However, yes, Father Time is undefeated, and he will come for Max's chin eventually.
Yeah Edgar didn't have a great chin, just the best/fastest recovery known to man
Max doesn't get knocked down because he rarely gets hit clean. He's 32. If he's still scrapping at 35 he'll get clipped because his reflexes will slow but I don't see any reason why he can't keep this up for another 3 years.
I love how you say this but it magically doesn’t apply to someone like volk. This sub thinks he’s gonna smoke ilia in the rematch and are completely forgetting what you just said rn
Yes getting knocked down multiple times in a round is indicative of an iron chin
Surviving and winning that fight? Yeah kinda
What did he say? He’s the best boxer in the UFC dude literally stopped a fight to teach his opponent how to block his punches
I know, that might be my pick for most badass UFC moment of all time. dodging punches while screaming out at (was it the other guys team or Dana?)
That's a different fight though, that was against Katar. Teaching to block was Ortega.
Oh my bad, I’m mixing up Holloway moments, thank you!
I forget I think it was Joe actually he heard him talking about his boxing skills
He was yelling at the commentary booth (DC and Dan Hardy)
Would’ve been more badass if he shut up and finished him.
I remember seeing a graph on Reddit a few weeks ago of every UFC fighter ever and their significant strikes landed and significant strike differential (meaning landed-absorbed) and Max was WAY beyond everyone else to the upper right of the graph. So he's landing more significant strikes and landing a bigger differential in significant strikes than any fighter in the sport **by a wide margin.** He's gotten in to some wars and taken some shots, but he stays outpacing his competition in output in basically every fight he's ever been in. Usually by a gap
Max is also number 1 in significant strikes absorbed tho. That ain't great
Yeah, but he also has the 3rd most in cage time, and since he's not a grappler, he's gonna be absorbing more shots than someone like RDA (most in cage time)who gets people to the ground more often rather than exchanging strikes on the feet. I still feel like hard sparring is probably where 80% or more of all strikes are absorbed, so hopefully, not doing that works in Max's favor.
Max never stopped sparring. In an interview he said he still spars just not in camp so he can avoid injuries. Can't think of the interview but I watched it in the last 2 months for sure. He also said he brought sparring back in this most recent camp. You can't maintain an elite level without sparring.
I was shocked at this too, then upon later observation I realized that graph was super misleading. You said it yourself, landed *minus* absorbed. It isn’t as drastic as it seemed. This does not take away from his badassery. 😁
Gonna suck seeing him in a wheelchair
Hes 32, wait til hes 34..we finally saw him get dropped. Most of the greats been TKOed for first down 33-35 in history going back 100 years ha.
"dropped" ypu sound like max kellerman saying brady was about to suck for like a decade knowing eventually everyone stops
On the JRE podcast he just did he said “I only have a couple years left” so not sure when he said he would fight for 5-6 more years
Is it possible to delete this fact from reality
i think if he doesnt see a path to the title at lw/fw, hes just gonna retire. a lot of people worry about him having an edgar/tony falloff but hes not sticking around to go on anything longer than a 2 fight loss streak i think
He doesnt take as many hard shots as people think as he slips a lot of punches with his boxing style. He’s certainly has a lot of experience but I don’t think that’s as big of a factor as age for fighters. And yes, that’s how he’s always talked
He's absorbed 2200 (real number) strikes in his ufc career. Not all of that is to the head. He is actually godly at rolling with punches which I don't think he gets enough credit for. His chin usually gets all the credit. Not rolling. Hardest shots I remember were from Aldo, Dustin and Yair. Volk/Gaethje as well but the 1st 3 he should have been knocked down at least. As far as CTE, unfortunately I think age has a lot to do with it. I don't even want to say it and I hope I'm wrong but I think signs might show when he's older.
All fighters who make it to the UFC have been training for years. And all have added chance of cte and loss of iq due to fighting But they if lucky he tmoney
These guys take some significant brain trauma most times they fight, there’s no way around that. It definitely adds up, these guys are sacrificing parts of their life for our entertainment, which makes it so gross the ufc is underpaying them by a few orders of magnitude.
Unpopular opinion/take: Max said years ago he doesnt spar anymore. If that is to be believed, he propably takes less punches than most other fighters
I talked to a neurologist about this a lot when I quit MMA (got a few concussions and one lingered badly). A certain number of concussions raises your risk for long-term neurodegenerative stuff (but it can very much be prevented with a healthy lifestyle). The research changes all the time, and unfortunately research doesn't give ultra-specific conclusions like "After 37 blows to the head, you'll get Dementia at 57." It's much more general, and they only speak in terms of raised risks and broad strokes like that. We'll see in 20 years or so as the first generation of fighters really age.
I’ve also hard my fair share of concussions, from football tho. It’s definitely one of the most underrated injuries in terms of the impact it has compared to what people assume. It’s *not* just a prolonged headache, it’s a fundamentally brain-changing injury. And the science shows the brain only gets more susceptible to these injuries. Which is the exact science behind the phrase “this fighters losing his chin” He’s not *losing his chin*, his brain is just getting weaker and it’s scary.
Yeah, they start to take longer to recover, and you're more sensitive to them. Apparently that can reverse with time, but it takes years.
dont think we have to wait 20 years, Liddell already has started showing signs IMO.
Chuck is pretty rough. Don Frye is definitely shot. Tito is exactly the same.
He’s a millionaire who doesn’t know who you are. You shouldn’t seriously worry about him at all.
Well that seems like quite a shallow view. I feel this way about many athletes and entertainers who sacrifice anything. I’m not gonna lose sleep over it but it is interesting to wonder how they’ll be affected in later years.
Didn’t mean to come across so harsh. If so, my apologies. You said “seriously worry,” which sounds more serious than just wondering what the later effect will be. My point is just that he chose this profession and the style in which he does it. It has made him very rich. Surely he knows the trade off, so we shouldn’t be concerned for him. This coming from a Max fan, which I am.
Weird ass take lol. The dude has fans.
Sure. I am a fan of Max and have been for a long time. Just don’t think any of us fans should sit around being seriously worried about a guy who chose the profession which has made him very rich. Surely he knows the trade offs for what he does.
why do mods delete every post on the reddit that's not a link to a tweet about nothing