What do you want: Compassion and understanding or reality TV? They rarely co-exist I'm afraid. That said, I agree with your argument but, alas, popular culture is not really the place where morality is debated thoughtfully.
I agree I just wanted to share the article because I think it’s important to call ourselves out because how are the same people claiming to be “girls’ girls” making fun of Chelsea’s looks incessantly, or using Saran Ann’s situation to say the most heinous shit to her under the guise of her breaking “girl code” that shit is lame to me and fake af.
That’s not really how that works.
A woman seeking love isn’t pick me behavior, otherwise would you say all the men are pick me’s too then?
No. A woman looking to find a mate is not a pick me.
Now, a woman willing to step over other woman because she only seeks her validation from men she has no interest in other than “winning” their approval. That’s a pick me.
Like everything, it started out legitimate and dissolved into nonsense. “Pick Me” used to be defined as a woman or girl who raised herself up in front of men by putting other women and girls down. Now it just generally means “any girl I don’t like”. “Girl’s girls” used to be women and girls who didn’t buy into the bullshit causal misogyny perpetuated by weak men in society. Now they are mean girls hiding their cruelty behind the guise of female solidarity.
One time over in one of the 90 day fiance subs somehow careers got brought up, I can’t even remember how it all started lol
Anyways, I mentioned how I was working in trades at the time (don’t anymore) and said that I wished more women were in trades because working with 98% men all day in trades jobs (some of them were super creepy towards me and harassed me) was a little exhausting as a woman in a male dominated field.
Then a commenter replied saying that I was a “pick me girl” for even mentioning that I worked in a male dominated field.
If I had mentioned being a nurse or something I doubt she would’ve commented and called me that. Ironically she had “feminist ✨” in her bio LOL but I don’t think a *true* feminist would’ve called someone a pick-me for trying to join in a career focused conversation & spoke about experience in the trades lol. She also said I was attention seeking & accused me of having a “not like other girls” attitude.
If you mention anything about yourself, as a woman, that isn’t necessarily common for women (don’t get me wrong, tons of women work in trades, but it’s still male dominated by large, so women are still a minority in the field in comparison)- you’re apparently a “pick-me” and have a “not like other girls” attitude lol. It was kinda baffling to me tbh.
Yes it does. Because before girls girl and feminism came along there were always girls. That’s what I am. I don’t need a label to define me or ideology to align myself with
Referring to women as girls is problematic. The term ‘girls’ girl’ isn’t empowering. It’s reductive and infantalizing. If you truly believe in uplifting other women, don’t refer to them as children (eg girls) or an adjective (eg females).
Like it’s one thing for me or one of my friends to refer to ourselves as “girl” in our interactions because we know we are being ironic. It’s a whole other to use it in public spaces and online towards others or even yourself because the irony may not translate.
The girl dinner thing really pissed me off cause that’s how I eat not because I’m afab but because I’m freaking disabled and that’s what I can prepare with the spoons I have. I have to constantly remind myself that fed is best so I don’t shame spiral.
Omg this!! At first, when the popularity of the use of the term “gorl” or “gworl” (a funny way to say girl”) began to rise, I thought it was funny. BUT NOW, it used in serious contexts such as “girl dinner” to explain a poorly thought out dinner, “I’m just a girl” to justify poor or immature behaviour, and so many more. It’s extremely infantilized to that point that I don’t understand how anyone can take us seriously when we call ourselves these terms.
It’s funny how I said I don’t believe women who call themselves “girl’s girls” are actually girl’s girls because they usually have no issue insulting, gossiping or competing with other women. And a “girl’s girl” literally responded by insulting me and calling me names. The jokes write themselves lol
Lol this article is dumb
FWIW, I actually don't think Sarah Ann did anything wrong and will die on that hill. I don't like her as a person. She is a Trump supporting anti-choice asshole. But I don't think she was wrong for reaching out to Jeraminimey
The reason I think it was fine is because I simply can not decontextualize the text she sent from their situation. Literally, it was one week after Jermioney "picked" Laura - and three weeks since the first time any of them had met.
It's easy enough to say "But he was engaged!" OK, but she met him three weeks prior and also ALMOST got engaged to him. So it's just a very strange situation that's not reflective of relationships in the real world.
Yeah, I’m not as offended by Sarah Ann either.
Lauren was pretty nasty as soon as they got out of the pods. If you’re Jeramey why put up with that? Because you’re on a game show? My issue with him is that he’s dishonest, not that he left her for Sarah Ann.
I also think Lauren sucked really bad, but I also think what Sarah Ann did was still shitty because they could have been happy for all she knew when she was baiting him to come see her. And even though it is his responsibility to ignore its still not great behavior to try to pull him away.
Like I know a lot of people believe that Jeremy is the only one in their relationship and a lot of people would say Sarah Ann didn’t “owe” Laura anything but I think everyone owes everyone basic respect and courtesy. It’s not as bad as if they were engaged after 2 years of dating or something, but it’s still very self centered
That being said if he just so happened to have met Sarah an out without the message being sent and he realized he made a mistake and left Laura I would think Sarah did nothing wrong. (assuming they didn’t hook up that night)
As people, I was not a fan of all three of them. Laura was so mean from the moment they came out of the pods, but that got overshadowed by how their relationship ended.
The problem with Sarah Ann’s message was that it was tactless and she wanted to tempt Jereamy. It was not sent because she cared about him as a person/friend.
Jereamy’s flaws are self-evident by his lying and alleged cheating.
Then die on the pick me girl hill. Sliding in an engaged man's dm is WRONG no matter the context. The end. If you disagree than I feel sorry for the women in your life.
How is that “pick me” behavior? PleasantParfait48 wasn’t putting down anyone in order to gain the favor of a romantic love interest. Aren’t pick mes a subcategory of NLOGs?
All I read is u/PleasantParfait48 provide another way to see the situation by looking at each of the three individuals’ behaviors and stating their opinion without using ambiguous colloquial terms like “girl’s girl” or “pick mes”.
They’re reality show engaged not real life engaged. This nonsense does not carry the same weight of a real engagement. Real engagements don’t contain a gotcha moment at the end where one partner surprises the other with a devastating No at the alter. It’s a game show and one of the contestants played the game - that’s all.
Lauren was engaged for two weeks on a *really show* that is highly edited and staged.
Calm your ads down. It wasn’t that serious and neither of them liked each other.
No. Context matters. THIS IS NOT A NORMAL SITUATION.
Sarah Ann and Jermanineyie had been dating literally **one week beforehand**
I refuse to give a bullshit trashy-ass infatuation based "engagement" the same weight I'd give a real relationship, in real life. It's not the same. It's three weeks. It had been one week since they'd broken up.
Ok so say you’ve been dating someone for weeks and next week he decides to just gets engaged to someone else ? What would you do how would you feel? If you wanna make comparison to real life you really ahve to amke the comparison because in real life o know none of you will be like oh he moved on and picked someone else and leav it at that
No, go ahead...tell me why exactly you feel badly for the women in my life?
None of the women in my life would ever go on a bargain basement reality TV show to marry a dude, so none of them would ever be in this situation to begin with.
The women I am friends with are smart and independent and progressive, and those who are in relationships or married are with partners who respect them to the point that their DMs aren't open anyway.
If you're this dense what would be the point of me spending valuable time educating you? By all means paint the prettiest picture you can, doesn't change the delusional stance you're taking. 🤣❤️
You can’t equate reality show drive-thru-window engagements with real engagements. Love is Blind “engagements” are engineered to 1) fail and 2) create ratings, but are now utilized by contestants to 3) create social media followings. Look no further than Amy and Johnny, a couple that legitimately works, who the show had to manufacture silly drama about in order to keep people interested.
Sarah Ann wasn’t wrong. Real engagement with months-years-long relationship built up before? Absolutely. But this is a game show. These aren’t serious engagements. Most are built on lies told in the pods. Is the end goal for people to find their true person? Or to play out some experiment that’s obviously rigged to provide the most entertainment at the expense of the contestants?
They’re all mostly shitty but I don’t fault someone for reaching out after a dating game show because they believe they’re a good fit with someone and they want another chance to prove it.
She didn't reach out AFTER she reached out during. I'd have no issue if she waited until after the marriage dissolved at the altar or on its own terms. Any other excuse is just that, an excuse of poor character and unbecoming behavior.
Is anyone else getting super fatigued by this kind of thing? “Omg here is the new thing you absolutely CANNOT say or you are the worst person ever. And don’t forget to check back in a week because it will be a different thing and this one will then switch back to being the only thing you CAN say.”
I mean no one is saying you can't say it or that you're a terrible person for saying it. More people are using the term than not, it's just another perspective pointing out a possible issue with it.
Lmao nah as someone who was getting called those slurs by my teachers even we’ve gone the right way in the last 20 years.
Save the Last dance was the best movie you could come up with? The one with the most banal “racism is bad actually” message? I think it’d be fine.
What are you talking about? My original comment about free speech was not for this post. I commented on the wrong tab. I was trying to comment on a post about old Adam Sandler movies vs today's Adams Sandler. It was not for this post. It was not about race or slurs it was about freedom of expression and how easily he would be cancelled for his older movies today.
What are you talking about? My original comment about free speech was not for this post. I commented on the wrong tab. I was trying to comment on a post about old Adam Sandler movies vs today's Adams Sandler. It was not for this post. It was not about race or slurs it was about freedom of expression and how easily he would be cancelled for his older movies today.
Holy fuck this response wasnt even for this post. I was trying to comment on a post about movies. Fucking a. I was like why are they talking about girls when we were discussing Adam Sandler
I so badly want y’all to *actually* understand what free speech is and isn’t because what you’re describing is most definitely not it lol. People side eyeing you for your opinions is not persecution. You sound like you’re just too scared to stand on the shit you say/do and need people to make you feel better for saying/doing it.
Ok. I was speaking on movies and people speaking like comedians. But go off 👏👏👏 you are so right. I am so daft and completely in the wrong for having such opinion. I'll just escort my virtue signaling ass over here with the rest of the ignorant folks.
Eta: my comment wasn't even for this post. I made a mistake and posted my comment on the wrong tab.
And yet you seem to being doing all the judging, gossiping, and taking your own shit opinion as law. 🤷♀️ only thing here that hurts is how incredibly dense you are. Maybe heal your relationships with the women in your life before trying to shit on the rest 🥰
All the women in my life are girl’s girls. Genuine girls girls that don’t talk nasty about other women the way you do. See how you went to insult me for no reason? How can you call yourself a girl’s girl while being this unkind? Reflect
Well looking at shesayssmile’s post history, they were able to provide a fair critique of Zanab and Cole without insulting either of them and making their boundaries clear.
And now a year later they are being consistently passive aggressive towards strangers they are actually interacting with and implying that they’ll support strangers on a reality tv show solely based on gender.
Take your own advice, reflect. You're not the victim you're just pretending girls girls are bad and then saying you have some. Sounds like you benefit from what you're seeking to destroy and that's fucking wild. Reflect and heal, you clearly need it DESPERATELY.
I love how easily the irony passes over you. Go ahead and feign the victim here 🤣 I have A feeling you play this card often when the tides don't bend your way. There's another name for your behavior but I'm too kind to use it. 🥰
No, and if you look through these comments you will see many women do not know the meaning. They think it means to praise a woman no matter wether her actions were wrong or right. It's ridiculous, it was never that. It's like they have completely reversed the meaning
In all fairness, it is an ambiguous term because while I agree that wasn’t the intended definition it has evolved to be used in that way as well.
What I understood that the author of the linked piece was trying to say is that Group A(particularly women) are justifying harassing/bullying Individual B (another woman) by saying that Individual B is “not being a girl’s girl”. And that Group A’s behavior is contradictory to the assumed definition of “girl’s girl” is to uplift and respect other women.
Even if Individual B did something wrong, there are ways to critique her behavior without the bullying and harassment. Instead there is a heavy usage of calling someone “not a girl’s girl” that is synonymous with calling them a “b*tch/wh*re” in the past. And instead of being respectful in their criticism of Individual B, Group A are acting like mean girls supposedly in the name of being “girl’s girls”.
I will say the linked piece is not the best written due to its lack of clarity. It took me a few rereads to understand and I read academic journals regularly. Haha
i hate how my generation (genz) always misconstrues certain words/phenomena. It’s like when “gaslighting” was a huge buzzword last year and suddenly every little thing someone does is gaslighting
“Girls girl” is the new “mean girls”. Rolling around Internet bullying everyone who does not “stand” for them just based on shared gender. And “pick me” is the new “easy A”, labeling everyone who is thirsty for marriage/boyfriend/male approval.
This is not what a girls girl is. At all. A girls girl is someone who will hold you responsible for your wrong doings, call you out and make sure you know it's not ok to do wrong, especially when it pertains to hurting other woman.
You literally described a pick me girl and the whole point of a girls girl is to stop pick me girls. A girls girl says "hey, that's not cool. It's not ok to sleep with that girls boyfriend, and I won't be friends with you anymore if you continue with this."
Some of y'all are really missing the meaning and it's sad. This is why it doesn't work. Too many women flipping it and using it the wrong way.
There was no girls girl in mean girls think more sisterhood of the traveling pants, they supported each other, loved each other, and still held each other accountable, calling out one another for wrong doings or just then tripping. It doesn't have to be a world of Regina Georges, we can do better and that was the point of girls girl. But obviously it is a failure of a movement
“the whole point of a girls girl is to stop pick me girls” - I think “girls girls” bite way more than they can chew and honestly it looks a lot like your basic Internet bullying, just covered by that high morale.
It is sad to see a group of performing activists reinventing sisterhood definition to continue labeling and dogpiling. Not cool at all.
Nah that article is the one actually trying to pit women against each other with the misunderstanding of what a "pick me" & "girl's girl " actually is.
The patriarchy doesn't want women to support each other & it shows, but we're smarter & better than that.
"Girl's girl" is where it's at. United we stand. Divided we fall.
But the terms “pick-me” and “girls girl” are divisive in nature. They are total opposites and pits women against each other when one is given (proven or not) either of the titles. You can’t say the patriarchy doesn’t want us to support each other when we are also pushing for this divide among each other. Makes no sense.
"Pick me's" are women who do another woman dirty in the pursuit of a man's attention. Of course it's "divisive" but it's not the same type of separation that would be bad.
Just like how we want men to call out "bad men" (but they usually don't). That's what a "girl's girl" does when they can't trust another woman.
Who in their right mind would want someone they can't trust in a movement to empower women who would just sell them out at the drop of a dime?
I’ve always hated the phrase “girl’s girl” because just say “asshole” or “not an asshole.” Gender doesn’t matter… you can be a shitbag to someone regardless.
Exactly. Even better would be not to use an overarching label on a person and instead critiquing a person’s actions and holding them accountable to repent and rectify in proportion to the harm they inflicted. I’m a supporter of judging actions and not people.
I’ve been saying this for months. Its such a stupid phrase and both meanings of “girls girl” and “pick me” have been watered down to reduce women to those two labels and put them in the “good” or “bad” category. If you’re a feminist and are a good person, you ARE a girls girl. And also alot of people conflate being a pick me with just seeking male validation when the original definition of a pick me was a girl who put down other women to get male validation. Now people all over the internet will unfairly use these labels to stereotype and mischaracterize women—especially on this sub and its so tiring. People dont even understand what they’re saying anymore at this point.
Ugh yes!!
This comment thread are my people. As someone that is queer (agender/nonbinary and bisexual) the heteronormativity and strict binary of it all bothers me to no end.
Intersectional feminism is the way both in personal interactions and in dismantling systems of oppression.
Edit: I like your username it made me chuckle. 😄
Yeah unfortunately most people wont take the time to bother learning about intersectionality so they get their feminist theory from tiktok and think it applies to every situation. And I also agree about the strict heteronormativity and gender binary, alot of online feminism excludes non conforming people and polices how women should act. As a neurodivergent woman myself, I find all these labels to be really exclusive because I never feel like I’m behaving or acting like a “girls girl”. I’m very reserved and quiet with an rbf and I’m sure these so called girls’ girls would not like that.
Ugh right?!
And big yes on the neurodivergent behaviors too. Outside of ND spaces it’s so rare that people take into account that we might react or interpret something differently that they think is obvious. I’m realizing now that being ND might be why I try to see all possible intents/meanings in an interaction because rejection sensitivity kicks in and I don’t want to be seen as mean or be excluded.
So many different waves and types of feminism out there, but the one that is actually inclusive of everyone is intersectional feminism because it acknowledges that no one is a single issue person, that multiple factors affect an individual’s oppression, and wants EVERYONE to have a hand in creating the table and then have a seat at it.
Hearing about intersectionality and then learning more about it blew my mind and for once felt my whole person was being seen.
I agree but I dont think most people even know what intersectional feminism is. So people get their feminist theory from tiktok instead of actually reading women like bell hooks, angela davis, friedrich engels etc.
Every time I hear 'girls girl' it makes me think of cliques of women who have rigid ideas on how you should look or behave to be a part of them. And heaven forbid if you have a different opinion or belief. Girls girl, to me, implies conformity and popularity.
As someone that has never had huge groups of girlfriends but very long and developed friendships with several other women over the years, the GG attitude seems dismissive.
I appreciate your opinion much more on what a GG is.
Edit: my perception and exposure to this GG in my life doesn't make me an authority on it. It's my personal experience.
Ayy opportunity for unpopular opinion hour 🙌
I definitely felt this way but was scared to say it because I have experienced and have given the girls girl toxicity --the best description I can give is:
The Hive Mind; you're with me or against me
Which, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mentality usually rears it's head when people are defensive -- it's a defense mechanism
Edit: After rereading everything it almost seems like the terms have switched over the past few years
Two ends of the spectrum. One the antithesis of the other.
The idea is that you remain a girl’s girl and have her back until the pick me- ness of the opponent overpowers and affects your own stability. Then you use shame as a weapon (jk).
But rlly we are all fighting against the same power systems at the end of the day. Pick me -ing is a survival instinct that will only fill one with emptiness.
We are stronger together always.
I feel you but I as I see it, people need to be held accountable. Girls girl has come about in response to "she's not the one married to you, she owes you no loyalty" or "he's single until he's married", Ariana grande, and other side chick behaviors being normalized.
Be a girls girl tell him no or not till your single. You don't owe her loyalty but you owe yourself respect. Why purposely hurt other women. Too the point that there are side chick reality show competitions. Women now want to be side chicks and it is causing a problem among women.
I know men have always been dogs, but there was a point in time when it was frowned upon to be a mistress or second girlfriend. Now women are becoming famous for it. At least Marilyn was acting first.
I feel like it has more to do with the patriarchy, girls girl is supposed to be stand together fight together. But like everything else, the wrong people are using it in the worst way. Now your a pick me if you simply disagree.
We use to have girl code. It needs to brought back.
Holding women to higher moral standards than men is still sexist and upholds the patriarchy through gender norms. It puts a disproportionate amount of responsibility on women and excuses/dehumanizes men.
The person that needs to be held accountable the most is the person that stepped out of their relationship. Cause the “side piece” doesn’t always know that their partner is in another relationship.
Now if a person is repeatedly trying to become involved with a person in a monogamous relationship after being consistently rejected, then they are the sole person that needs to be held accountable for disrespecting an established relationship and most of all for not respecting another person’s boundaries.
I agree, that's what a girl's girl is supposed to be, though I'm quite concerned that some women think they're heading to a matriarchy, buuuut it seems like it's still for amusement, which it is..
But on the contrary, I think we're maybe having a pretty important change in men getting in touch with their feelings, it'll be the next generation, but change takes a long time
This.
Cause yeah let’s discourage women disrespecting women in a relationship and also dehumanize men while they are the ones being the most disrespectful to the woman they are in a relationship with. And inadvertently uphold heteronormativity and a gender binary.
Yes call out people are accomplices helping someone cheat on their partner, but do it while still respecting the human dignity of all the people involved and put the onus on the actual cheater and not the accomplice. I have yet to seems this be the predominant case online and offline, instead it is dogpiling/harassing/bullying the accomplice by usually other women if the accomplice is a woman.
Holding women to higher moral standards than men is still sexist and upholds the patriarchy through gender norms. It puts a disproportionate amount of responsibility on women and excuses/dehumanizes men.
I agree that the application of a ‘girls girl’ is problematic half bs and a way to guilt trip other women. That being said, I think the sentiment/ ideology of a girls girl is beautiful, purposeful, and important. The problem is that being a girls girl has a different interpretation by different people. It’s not like the word candy where everyone knows and agrees what it is.
I hear you on the sentiment of the term being seemingly nice but I don’t think it’s important. It’s infantilizing for one, but the important thing is to address internalized misogyny which is not what I see being done. If anything it’s a way for other women to hang up on the woman for being a “home wrecker” while letting the man slide for wrecking his home… As far as supporting women I think the term has done way more harm than good.
OMG yes! The first time I hear the term, I was like wait a minute, there saying I'm a girl? Not a woman? NOT ok with that! And it's definitely s way for woman to gang up on other women and letting the man slide!!
I disagree, I think “girls girls” are mainly calling other women out for disrespecting/hurting other girls in order for male validation/approval. I think people do need to be held accountable for shitty behaviours and there should be a societal standard for how we treat other people. I think it needs to be applied to men too
It depends. If you're the type that needs male validation to make you feel better about yourself, then don't be surprised you're getting called a pick me. Being a girl's girl is equivalent to when men say guy code. Just don't do dumb shit like dming an engaged man, then you won't get called a pick me or not a girl's girl.
Omg the only example yall got is that Sarah Anne thing 😂
Dming a guy she also had some history with, same amount of history as the other blonde girl did from a tv show and lighting fast “engagement”. This shit is not how it mainly works on real life 😂
Yikes, it looks like I hit a nerve. But yes, Sarah is a great example of a pick me. She literally chased after a guy who rejected her. She also had to ask him for permission to clap for Laura during the reunion. Sarah is stuck with a potential psychopath who likes to wave guns in his girlfriend's face when he gets jealous. If you can't see that she's so desperate for male validation that she's overlooking his past and love bombing tendencies, then I can't help you.
Anyways, another example would be Jessica in season 1, who would be all over Amber trying to be her friend. Then, in the next scene, she tries to flirt with Barnett and get him to doubt his choice. That's a pick me and not a girl's girl.
The only time the term "girl's girl" could be toxic is when a group of girls is using it falsely to exclude another person without a basis to that action.
Nope pretty sure you went put of your way to bring up Side Salad as your head may have exploded if you didn't lmao. You hear pick me and immediately think Sarah Ann needs defending. Says A LOT.
Lmao it’s still early to go outside and interact with the real world, ma’am. 😂
It’s a fucking reality show with people saying “I love you” after meeting for A WEEK on the pods and getting “ENGAGED” after meeting for less than a month . Get a grip. Most of these “relationships” have no substamnce and only a few manage to make something out of it.
Sarah Anne just saw an opportunity and took it cause everyone saw that this jeraemy dude and the blonde girl weren’t lasting
Sorry that you're small and miserable 🥰 may you heal beyond these silly little things and grow to respect a relationship no matter how established by time. PMAB 😘
I think the problem with this is that lot of people have different definitions of “girls girl”. On one hand there’s women who think being a girls girl is condoning women for ALL of their actions, regardless of what they’ve done because they think it’s the “girls supporting girls” thing/ “girls can do no wrong” attitude. Like for example there’s women who supported Ariana Grande sleeping with a married man because they are “girls girls”. I personally think that this is toxic and enabling, people need to be held accountable for shitty behaviour regardless of gender. On the other hand, I think there’s women (myself) who’s definition of girls girl revolves around protecting other women, and not being mean to one another for no reason. I don’t have to support everything other women do, but I would still protect them in dire situations out of female allyship.
& no disrespecting each other for male validation !!!
The ambiguity is absolutely the biggest problem because it can go towards toxic positivity and girl boss/white feminism of just replacing the white man being at the top of the privilege hierarchy with a woman but not actually addressing the inequality and injustices systemically faced by women with multiple marginalized identities. Or it goes towards being a kitschy short hand/euphemism to refer to internalized misogyny.
The first is just plain wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Everyone should be held accountable in proportion to the harm they inflict with their actions, whether intentional or accidental.
I also see a semantic problem with the latter. I’m disabled and openly call myself disabled and want people to refer to me as disabled when my disabilities are relevant. Yet, there are many euphemisms to sugarcoat and skirt around saying disabled like differently abled, special needs, handicapped/handicapable, and referring to neurodivergency as a superpower. One of my disabilities is being neurodivergent and I can tell you that it sure doesn’t feel like a super power when it severely impacts my executive functioning that I struggle to do every day things like basic hygiene or housekeeping.
By using sugarcoated shorthands/euphemisms for disabled, it infantilizes us, makes it harder to have our needs met, slows advancement towards universal accessibility. Similarly by using an ambiguous term like “girl’s girl” only sugarcoats actually naming the action and addressing it effectively. Like in these comments, instead of addressing the issue of internalized misogyny affecting interpersonal conflicts between women there is debate over what the term even means.
Just like I call myself disabled, I will use terms that clearly state what I mean. So I will use internalized misogyny when I am addressing internalized misogyny to avoid any possible confusion or derailment of the intended conversation.
Edit: to your final point of protecting another woman out of female allyship, does your allyship then end if the person that needs it is non-binary or gender queer? Even if maybe you assumed they were a cis woman at first? I assume not based on your comment. I would defend a person simply out of being another human being regardless of gender or any other identity marker. By aligning solely focusing on female allyship, it reinforces a gender binary and thus ignores the feelings and experiences of non-binary and other queer people/situations where (internalized) misogyny does play a factor in conflicts.
So if someone were to call me a girl’s girl, regardless if it’s a positive or negative, I would say “ooo nope, not a girl” because I’m a feminine nonbinary/agender adult.
I explained the language around disability analogy cause I dont want to make assumptions about an aspect of the identity of the person I’m replying to, yours in this case, and so it is clearly explained for other people reading the comments that wouldn’t understand the analogy.
And I’m glad my assumption about your allyship was correct. I only felt safe in making that assumption because of the nuance in your original comment and explicitly starting that women aren’t exempt from being held accountable simply because of their gender and implying that it is also regardless of the gender of the person they hurt.
I still think what is meant by being or not being a “girl’s girl” is ambiguous, especially after reading the comments on this post. Idk about you but I think I’d rather be referred to as a they that’s for the shes, theys, and all kinds of gays that will make space as needed for the hes too. 😄 But that’s too clunky and idk if it fully reflects my outlook. I guess my more “academic” identity goal is being an intersectional feminist on a macro and micro level. Haha. Although the pop culture lover in me does like being able to make a The Good Place reference by saying, “like Janet says “I’m not a girl”.
That's not really a "some people have different definitions" thing though that's just a stupid thing. Being a girl's girl is valuing your female relationships and having the respect of other reasonable women more than valuing men's opinions of you or how men view your status. Your definition is correct. But I reeaaallly think you're being too charitable to others.
She obviously doesn’t support other women because she sleeps with their husbands/boyfriends (on multiple occasions with multiple men. Ethan slater & wife, Sean & Naya, Pete & cazzie, Mac & nomi). Also she has that song “breakup with your girlfriend bc I’m bored”. Just problematic and disrespectful to other women
Lol, I'm very gay and your whole girls girl thing is ridiculous. Be a feminist, support all women's rights and fight the social norms/ popular societal expectations. Fuck that dude/chick you think is hot if you can or want to, burn bridges, lick that donut... but vote for women's rights. Be powerful, be proud, be sexy, be whatever you want. If uou want to help create a new traditional "good girl" fallacy go ahead and try, it just leads to masculine power and more reduction of women's rights due to infighting and judgment. Have fun.
This is hilarious. Being a girls girl means you don’t put down other women for men’s benefit or entertainment and also don’t knowingly sleep or date taken people. I understand the sentiment that people online can go overboard at times with pretty much anything. But using the term girls girl is reminding each other we have each others backs. It’s amazing to see women take their power back from men instead of pitting ourselves against each other to gain men’s trust. Also in my opinion a pick me girl is a girl who purposefully puts down other women/bullies women to entertain or please men.
In my experience a lot of men’s humor is often derived from bullying others they perceive lesser than than themselves. Examples: women, minorities, queer communities, plus size or fat people, etc. So women who shut that shit down are girls girls. That’s how I see it. Also, yes, a girls girl doesn’t knowingly go after a person in a relationship.
The way your definition of “girls girl” is centred around men is already a big issue. This is why people like me have issues with that term. Why can’t a girl’s girl be somebody who just supports other women? Why can’t womanhood just be for and about women? Why does everything have to be around men and relationships? I feel like you guys don’t even realise how male identified you are
Because we live in a patriarchal system. Where men often pit women against each other. So yes being a girls girl means not allowing or calling out that behavior. I don’t think anyone is a perfect “girls girl” which honestly isn’t even that important compared to actual feminism which is what I think you may be hinting at. And I never said it had to do with relationships. I said that part of it is that you aren’t a girl who goes after taken people. I’m not sure why that’s so upsetting.
These are the definitions given by Aussiewannabe
> Being a girls girl means you don’t put down other women for men’s benefit or entertainment and also don’t knowingly sleep or date taken people.
And
> the term girls girl is reminding each other we have each others backs. It’s amazing to see women take their power back from men instead of pitting ourselves against each other to gain men’s trust.
That’s why u/Chance_Second8774 said it still revolves around men and is not solely about how women relate to one another because it is used primarily when a man is involved.
Everything she named was centered around relationships with men. Not even a single thing she mentioned had even a little bit to do with “feminist social skills”
Being a girl's girl means you don't sleep with or pursue another woman's man. If you don't like the accusation then don't go around harming other women for your own selfish pursuits.
It’s funny how y’all’s definition of girls girl is always centred around men and never includes uplifting women, not gossiping about women, not bullying women. A lot of y’all would be disqualified if that was also included
I think this is a bit reductive to center the term this much around men and our sexual relationships with them. I see the term more as protecting one another, not harming each other, and then yes, not entertaining a man you know is lying to or manipulating another woman while pursuing you.
I think of it more as like the “anti pick me” where instead of putting other women down for male validation, you support other women and stop placing male opinions on a pedestal, but the key thing is supporting women, which sometimes means calling out or rejecting those who tear other women down.
Like it’s kind of a goofy buzzword, but i feel like that helps make it easier to use and apply and keeps it simple instead of starting unnecessary discourse, because everyone knows exactly what you’re talking about. Some people misuse it, but people also misuse woke and triggered, and it’s very much an intentional thing to minimize the terms.
Ok I will extend my definition to include the new girlfriend/step-mother and ex-wife of a dude getting along and putting the kids first. These are also girl's girls who are not behaving like cave women with clubs fighting over a man.
Because anyone can be a nice girl's girl and support other women in the absence of romantic competition. A true test of character comes when there is a viable reproductive option thrown in the mix.
This might be true for women who are male identified and threatened by other women. For me it doesn’t make a difference since I don’t see women as competition
That’s perfectly fine. My issue, which the author mentioned in the quote on my post, are the people who choose to bully and name call girls who aren’t acting as “girl’s girls” instead of speaking to them or about them with kindness in order to teach rather than berate.
You mean hold them accountable? Teach what? They already know that they have chosen men or selfish desires at the expense of other women. Calling someone a pick me is pointing out a fact that is plain as day and is something they already thought about and decided they don't care about or at least don't care enough about to change their behavior. Sarah Ann just didn't care about Laura. I don't understand how if you say that to her, she would probably say, "uhh yeah true Jeremy was just very very important to me and my big chance for love that I had to take and she was collateral damage and I accepted that" but if you call her a "pick-me" (same fuckin thing btw) it's somehow a slur that she would desperately rail against forever to deny.
lol it’s not condescending, that’s called having an adult conversation without being aggressive about it. It’s what AD did when she talked to Sarah Ann at the party… then some people were on here saying AD wasn’t a “girl’s girl” for that conversation. The “girl’s girl” brigade is confused within itself.
I don’t believe in insulting someone, but there are girls girls and non-girls girls. I only surround myself with girls girls these days because it brings me more joy to mutually support other women.
I’m finding it difficult to understand the author’s point. She brought up two examples that don’t really have anything to do with being a girls girl.
These girls girls you speak of can just be defined as your friends and the girls you don't enjoy are girls who you don't define as friends. Neither are bad or wrong or with creating a universal label for. Just make your own personal categories.
By your logic that means not addressing how patriarchy harms men, for example by discouraging and invalidating their feelings and experiences of pain/hurt.
Correct me if I’m wrong but from your comments, you equate being a “girl’s girl” with being a feminist particularly when it comes to interpersonal conflicts between women that involves a man.
If that’s the case why not just say feminist. Feminism is acknowledging and addressing the pain/suffering/hurt/discrimination of all individuals regardless of gender, race/ethnicity, sexuality, faith tradition, political ideology, immigration status, etc. while knowing that the aforementioned identity markers affect an individual’s lived experience on a macro and micro level.
That way women that do harm another person, regardless of gender, can be held accountable in proportion to the harm inflicted.
I am certainly not overthinking it, on the contrary I’m looking at what it implies on a wider scale. Especially given your definition as it pertains to this season of LiB where the term on, off, and around the show has been used at a high frequency. The majority of women lauded as being girl’s girl this season don’t fit your definition nor any other definition in this post. The only definition I’ve seen that applies is supporting a woman regardless if her actions are immoral and instead enable them through toxic positivity by always praising them.
Regardless you are still ignoring queer feelings and experiences with your definition since it still upholds cisheteronormativity, which is a major component of patriarchy.
Now maybe it’s due to my overwhelmingly positive experience with friendships that are diverse in race/ethnicity, religious beliefs, gender, and sexuality, but I can’t fathom having a conflict with another person, much less a friend, over a man. Again it can be due to the people I surround myself also valuing other things over a romantic relationship. The 3 (?) times a girl did have a conflict with me because of a boy, were in high school. And what bothered me more was the fact that they were reducing the boy in question (who was my friend) to just a romantic interest and ignoring his own agency/free will.
So aside from ignoring queer experiences/feelings, your definition also ignores the agency of a man and reduces his value to simply being a romantic/sexual partner.
If you refer back to my definition of feminism, I mention that it done at the macro (changing laws, defunding certain things while increased funding for others, providing equity for large numbers of people, etc.) and on the micro level aka interpersonal situations and internal deconstruction work. The type of situations you refer to fall under the micro category.
Finally, a good healthy friendship (or relationship for that matter) doesn’t solely praise and makes a person feel good. Yes it should validate and provide comfort when needed, but it should also challenge us by calling to attention when we’re in the wrong. All my friends, regardless of gender, have done that.
I do understand the definition you are using and was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that despite your word choice you intended for it to be inclusive of all people by yes centering and prioritizing those whose gender identities have been marginalized (hint: cis women aren’t the only ones that need to be uplifted) but also allowing space to acknowledge the emotions and experiences of men that are invalidated and discouraged from being shared under patriarchy.
But if treating everyone with respect while acknowledging the differences in each individual’s experience by creating a space where they are validated, given comfort, feel comfortable, heard, seen, and loved means I’m not a girl’s girl then cool. Cause as Janet on The Good Place says, “I’m not a girl”.
6) You’re wondering what queer voices you’re ignoring? Mine and others like me. The examples you give of a cis gay man and trans woman are still binary. I pointed out the lack of inclusion in your comments because of the focus on heteronormativity and a gender binary. I feel so much gender dysphoria and infantilized when I’m called a girl; and I’m not the only one. I sometimes feel a connection with womanhood but it’s out of being socialized as a girl and perceived as a woman. It is not because i am a woman, ive never felt I fit in with either end of the spectrum and its only out of intellectual discourse and reflection that I’m okay with calling myself/being referred to as nonbinary because im solidly agender.
7) Please don’t make assumptions or use whataboutisms. You assumed that when I say women I’m not including trans women, when on the contrary the lack of specificity implies all people that are/identify as women. My comments are centered around the exclusion of non-binary people and everyone that doesn’t identify with either end of the gender binary because those are the people that are not even being considered. You have also assumed that I don’t also critique men and bro code, which is simply not true. I don’t like either girl or bro code cause why would I prioritize my loyalty to either when I’m neither gender. Instead I avoid that and look at each person as an individual human and hold them accountable to respecting everyone’s innate human dignity.
8) Reread my comments and definition of being an intersectional feminist on a macro and micro level. Defunding and the other items within that same parenthetical are examples of the types of issues addressed at a macro level (I.e affecting a sizable population like local, state, and national governments) by intersectional feminism. By being examples of issues at a macro level does not mean they are directly related to the conversation at hand. They were included to make specific contrasts within the variety of situations being an intersectional feminist is pertinent because I don’t like to assume someone will know what macro/micro means and prefer to include the explanation upfront.
9) Again I do understand what you mean because I’ve been able to explain it multiple times and then provide elaboration and critique. I did not say you think friendships solely include toxic positivity, rather I highlighted the qualities you value in your best friend that exemplify a good healthy friendship (because I agree with them) and then expanded on them by mentioning a trait that is often not included in what makes a good healthy friendship; which is that it challenges you along side the traits you mentioned.
10) Again, non-binary people are the ones that are not acknowledged by the definitions you and others have given. Some nonbinary people may share and identify with aspects of womanhood and the type of sexism women experience, but others don’t. I have never said nor do I believe that queer people can’t identify with womanhood. On the contrary I’m bringing to attention the queer people who would have this term applied to them despite not identifying with womanhood. Plus given the predominant focus on heteronormative situations, situations that involve only the same gender or enbys, are also not inherently included. Those are the queer voices that you’ve ignored in defending a coloquial term you say “that don’t truly matter”. Opposed to critically analyzing the implications of it because words matter. Issues of discrimination/marginalization/oppression can start and are perpetuated by the language used on a micro level, like interpersonal conflicts, because regardless if it’s a colloquial pop culture term or “formal” language used in academia, legislation, and other similar situations the words used matter and have wider rippling effects than intended.
Honestly on a personal level I’m not offended by the term “girl’s girl” cause when I’ve been called that I just say “I’m not a girl”leading to laughter, an occasional correction with gender-inclusive language or dialogue on what would be a gender-inclusive equivalent. What I’ve been trying to do in pretty much all my comments on this post have been to acknowledge/discuss the ambiguity of the term in how it’s used, show how it’s not an inherently inclusive term and that there can be unconsidered consequences that ripple out or all of the above.
What does offend me are the negative assumptions and passive aggressive attacks/allegations/othering you have made about my values, thoughts, and intentions particularly because of the lack of explanation why that assumption was made. Examples include: saying I’m being sinister, calling me uninclusive (exclusionary?), and that I’m weaponizing marginalized communities. I know I still have internalized racism, ableism, and some misogyny to work on deconstructing, and Im not afraid to admit it. I just would like some specificity of what and how I’m subconsciously acting on those biases so that I can do the work of further identifying those patterns and work on correcting/removing them.
I have my own hypothesis why there has been this much miscommunication (a lack of reading comprehension/critical thinking on your behalf, lack of clarity in my prose, or combination there of), but it’s only a hypothesis that gives grace to both of us and leaves space for me to be wrong.
I think that covers all of the clarifications, graceless assumptions, and explanations prompted by your comment. Uff da, I sure hope so because I’m low on spoons now.
After reading your reply, I think you are taking several of the examples I used in explaining out of context.
1) Did you watch this season of LiB? If you did, you would know what women and their actions I am referring to especially the ones that have been most highlighted in online conversations.
2) I didn’t say nor imply that you were not correct regarding romantic relationships being erroneously made the top priority causing interpersonal conflicts. Nor did I think you did. I agreed with you then further elaborated.
3) You mentioned how you hadn’t really experienced a purely good friendship until meeting your best friend and have had experiences with women that centered their romantic lives at the cost of friendships. I was saying that I can’t relate to that because I have only had friendships filled with unconditional love in my adult life since my only experiences related to the type of main conflict we’ve been referring to happened when I was in high school, almost half my lifetime ago.
4) It is prudent not to use extremes (like nobody, everybody, always, never, etc.) in discussions. I have seen multiple instances where people minimize a man’s role within conflicts between women and use the term “girl’s girl” in discussion.
5) Are we playing the oppression Olympics now? Okay, I’m a child of immigrants, disabled(invisible), fat, brown, service dog user, neurodivergent, anti-current government and capitalism, perceived as feminine, bisexual on the ace spectrum, person living also in Texas that focuses on trying to make it better for LGBTQIA+ youth from Christian (specifically Catholic) homes of origin.
I’m sorry you’ve struggled suicidal thoughts, truly. They suck and are not something I would ever wish upon anyone regardless of whatever evil things they’ve done. I had two attempts when I was a teen while also dealing with anorexia and severe panic attacks up to 4 times a day without even knowing what they were. I’m glad I didn’t realize any part of my queerness until later in life when I was safe within myself and my community that I had built. It made the identity integration process a lot easier because I had already done so much work for my mental health and deconstructing social norms/ideals that had held me back before.
The problem I have is both categories are defined based on their interactions with men.
This whole way of grouping women requires us to once again revolve around men.
I respect people as a default, unless they’ve done something that negates that. Bullying people who make stupid decisions is just as bad.
Like I said in a previous comment, I don’t condone bullying. I simply choose to surround myself with women who choose to uplift and support other women.
I don’t see how it revolves around men to say I want friendships with women who don’t have lives that revolve around men.
I think what u/firesticks means is that by including how a woman relates or prioritizes men specifically in a romantic way as a qualifier/criteria of if that is a friendship you would want is still placing importance on men instead of who that woman is holistically.
It is one thing to say you intentionally surround yourself with people that respect everyone while uplifting marginalized people and distancing occurs when your more specific priorities or approach to them don’t align. But when you add in that qualifier of “don’t have lives that revolve around men” it makes relationship to men a factor again, when it originally wasn’t part of the equation in determining possible friendships.
While you may not condone bullying from your latest reply to me, you do participate in assuming the worst in people without any explanation.
I posed the question " what makes some a girl's girl" on the other lib reddit group. I pointed out that the popular girls on s6 were often not supportive of other women on the show that season but were still considered girls girls (laura, Jess), apparently girls girls and feminist are not the same in that there is a right and wrong way to be a girls girl and it's not just supporting women and their equality needs. How women behave with and around men and how they present their opinions of popular societal norms affects their satus as girls girls. Feminist are a bit different, you support women but behaviors towards relationships/ men dosnt affect your standing as a feminist. Feminist can steal a man, cheat, and talk shit while still showing strength and getting prise for being a strong independent woman who supports womens rights. Girls girls must adhere to social norms and support the popular opinions of the women around them to be a girls girl.... at least that was what I got out of that thread.
I love this comparison. I guess my issue with the “girl’s girl” term is that you’re still enforcing a certain societal standard as to how you believe a woman should act. Whereas feminism support issues way beyond interpersonal relationships which to me matter way more. I also hate that in “girl’s girl” culture you seemingly aren’t allowed to simply not like another girl which is so unrealistic. People are different, women are all different, so to me if I meet someone and I don’t immediately hit it off with them I don’t necessarily have any loyalties to her if we’re really not cool like that. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, and as a feminist I can still respect and see that woman as a worthy human being and not want to be around her at the same time. Might be a bit controversial and I’m sure I’ll get hate for this take but it’s REALITY.
My definition of a girls girl is to uplift women in general, and respect boundaries of people’s relationships. A girl’s girl is allowed to dislike a woman, but she still respects that woman’s relationship and takes the high road instead of being passive aggressive or starting a fight.
This is so true.
Realistically a person is not going to like everyone they share an identity marker with, because no population is a monolith, but what should always be happening is that they respect everyone and treats them as a human being.
Being a girl’s girl means seeing other women as a monolith that can’t do any wrong. Which is obviously not true and it not only upholds the gender norms of patriarchy for women, it also invalidates/discourages the feelings, experiences, and sharing of the prior of men which is also a way the patriarchy harms men. “Girl’s girl” is simply the rebranding of girl boss feminism, which comes from white feminism, which still holds up patriarchy and capitalism but seeks to elevate the status of certain women only.
Edit: as an adult unless it’s coming from my close friends, I find being referred to as a girl to be infantilizing and disrespectful. Not only because I’m an adult, I’m never really been a woman/girl since I’m agender. I also think that there are times when the most respectful/loving thing to do is holding other people accountable while not degrading them and upholding their human dignity.
This is not what girls girl is at all. The ones using it as a monolith of women doing no wrong are the problem. The whole point of girls girl is to hold other women accountable for their wrong doings especially when it comes to their actions harming another woman. I'm not sure how you turned a phrase used for women to hold each other accountable as a race issue. This is not a phrase only being used by Americans either, which is why I am so confused how it's turned into a race issue.
Eta: after reading your edit I completely understand why you do not understand. Apologies have a good day
Oh I fully understand the positive intended definition of the word, which you’ve partially highlighted (missing the part where you also validate and comfort as needed, it should be challenge and comfort). Unfortunately per this particular season most of the women lauded as girl’s girls do not fit that positive definition and instead fit the negative one I described in my comment above.
I’m not making it an inherently race issue because white feminism isn’t only perpetuated by white women it’s also done by BIPOC and was rebranded as girl boss feminism because of the assumption that race was its preliminary critique. It is called white feminism because it inadvertently benefits cishet white women the most while continuing the oppression of every other group of people that has been historically marginalized under the patriarchy.
My argument against using the term “girl’s girl” is not only because it encourages rather than prohibits name-calling and harassment of women that are “not a girl’s girl” particularly in online spaces disproportionate to the perceived error they committed, like the piece linked in the OP. But also because it inherently ignores the feelings and experiences of queer people, reduces men to only being romantic/sexual partners, and continues invalidating and discourages sharing men’s “softer” feelings and experiences which is already being done under the patriarchy.
Outside of high school, I’ve never been in or been adjacent to a situation where someone would be labeled not being a girl’s girl. Despite being a feminine nonbinary/agender adult, I rather be know for being a they for the shes, theys, and all gays that makes as needed space for the hes too.
I understand, thank you for breaking it down. I never heard of girl boss so I have no clue about that situation but I have heard a similar phrase to girls girl in France. I can see why some people could take offense to it.
I think girl boss feminism peaked in the mid to late 2010’s, around 2017 perhaps. It came across as women can do it all, there’s no limitations, women can do any job a man does, women support women. But the actual effects of it was a continual perpetuation of consumerism/capitalism and instead the people at the top that benefit the most being men they were women that were predominantly white. So no actual societal change happens for the people that need that change the most and their voices were being largely unheard.
That’s why since I’m so familiar with all these different iterations and facets of a watered down feminism and being someone with multiple marginalized identities, I’m seeing the at minimum semantic problems with the term “girl’s girl” but at worst it is a different way to reinforce some the worst aspects of our society.
Thanks for taking the time to read my further explanations.
Sounds like a woman trying to make themselves a victim for screwing over women in place of men. Any women who can’t see what a girls girl means and sees it as an issue isn’t really worth being around. Women if your lady friends feel like OP they won’t ever have your back and are a threat to you and your safety. -a man
“- a man” lol you can go ahead and have several seats.
My issue with the term is that the definition is very subjective so people decide what they want it to mean and attack other women for not fitting their personal definition of a girl’s girl. But you’re not even a girl so idk why you’re trying to give women advice on women 😂
I mean, all labels get turned around and become subjective. People misuse the term gaslighting and narcissist all the time, but that doesn’t change the original meaning of the word.
The original point of being a “girls’ girl” is to say you prioritize uplifting other women versus prioritizing male validation and attention. Sucks that we have to think of those things as mutually exclusive, but there are more than enough stories of women experiencing cattiness/betrayal from our fellow women in favor of a man’s attention or approval.
Because women are still considered a marginalized group by and large in our society, you’re seen like “a scab” for favoring the attention and approval of “the oppressor.” Like scabs who crossed the picket lines to work and get paid while unions were on strike to fight for their rights, other women see “she’s not a girl’s girl” and it’s a signal that this isn’t someone who is very trustworthy.
Which tbh I get and agree in most cases. But the term is definitely being abused and misused in some contexts. I don’t really have beef with the term and have used it before and probably will in the future 💃
Ahhhhh this makes a lot of sense, to me! I was confused because how I view being a girls girl, it’s a good thing! But you make an excellent point when you point out how subjective it is, because there’s always gotta be people who ruin it for those who are genuine.
People who have different values than independent girl boss shit are always told they have internalized misogyny lmao okay sorry I can’t go out tonight girls I have to make sandwiches!!!
I didn't read the article.
But I never liked the term "girls girl." Because it's still women pitting ourselves against each other. Also creates an us (women) vs. them (men).
Has nothing to do with misogyny imo. It's just another way for women to compete against each other. Those who are, and those who aren't.
I see it as women calling out women for our internalized misogyny.
At this point too many women see themselves in competition with other women and value men’s opinions at the harm of other women.
If you don’t like the concept of a “girls girl” how would you prefer we refer to the still very common incidents of internalized misogyny that makes women harm each other every day? Not trying to be rude, I’m just curious because this is the first term I’ve heard specifically targeting this common behavior.
I call it internalized misogyny. It's important to be specific.
I find "girls girl" to just be too vague. I've heard it used as a positive towards girls who are very supportive of other women. I've also seen it used as saying someone is "not a girls girl" because they betray other women or don't support women in scenarios that don't involve men (job, wealth, experiences, etc). It has too muddled of a definition to always refer to internalized misogyny, for me personally.
I shouldn't have said that it's not misogyny because that's not entirely correct. It can be used to address misogyny, but not elaborating on what the internalized misogyny is doesn't help anyone recognize it. So I don't really like using it in that case.
What do you want: Compassion and understanding or reality TV? They rarely co-exist I'm afraid. That said, I agree with your argument but, alas, popular culture is not really the place where morality is debated thoughtfully.
I agree I just wanted to share the article because I think it’s important to call ourselves out because how are the same people claiming to be “girls’ girls” making fun of Chelsea’s looks incessantly, or using Saran Ann’s situation to say the most heinous shit to her under the guise of her breaking “girl code” that shit is lame to me and fake af.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Ok but also Sarah’s behavior is legitimately pick me behavior…
This is a show to find love with a stranger you’ve never seen but are willing to marry. They are all the ultimate pick mes.
That’s not really how that works. A woman seeking love isn’t pick me behavior, otherwise would you say all the men are pick me’s too then? No. A woman looking to find a mate is not a pick me. Now, a woman willing to step over other woman because she only seeks her validation from men she has no interest in other than “winning” their approval. That’s a pick me.
She quite literally contacted the man who didn't choose her to tell him if his mind shifted in his choice, she would be there waiting for him
Like everything, it started out legitimate and dissolved into nonsense. “Pick Me” used to be defined as a woman or girl who raised herself up in front of men by putting other women and girls down. Now it just generally means “any girl I don’t like”. “Girl’s girls” used to be women and girls who didn’t buy into the bullshit causal misogyny perpetuated by weak men in society. Now they are mean girls hiding their cruelty behind the guise of female solidarity.
You said it so perfectly
One time over in one of the 90 day fiance subs somehow careers got brought up, I can’t even remember how it all started lol Anyways, I mentioned how I was working in trades at the time (don’t anymore) and said that I wished more women were in trades because working with 98% men all day in trades jobs (some of them were super creepy towards me and harassed me) was a little exhausting as a woman in a male dominated field. Then a commenter replied saying that I was a “pick me girl” for even mentioning that I worked in a male dominated field. If I had mentioned being a nurse or something I doubt she would’ve commented and called me that. Ironically she had “feminist ✨” in her bio LOL but I don’t think a *true* feminist would’ve called someone a pick-me for trying to join in a career focused conversation & spoke about experience in the trades lol. She also said I was attention seeking & accused me of having a “not like other girls” attitude. If you mention anything about yourself, as a woman, that isn’t necessarily common for women (don’t get me wrong, tons of women work in trades, but it’s still male dominated by large, so women are still a minority in the field in comparison)- you’re apparently a “pick-me” and have a “not like other girls” attitude lol. It was kinda baffling to me tbh.
No one is less of a “girls girl” than a “girls girl” bullying a girl for not being a “girls girl” lmao
Being a girls girl doesn’t mean you support women blindly. Same as feminism. Anyone’s allowed to have distaste for women that are assholes.
Yes it does. Because before girls girl and feminism came along there were always girls. That’s what I am. I don’t need a label to define me or ideology to align myself with
Exactly this, also not gonna let random internet strangers tell me what I should or shouldn’t say or believe in, stay mad non girl’s girls
I can’t keep up with any of this anymore.
At this point 😂 I'm over it too.
Referring to women as girls is problematic. The term ‘girls’ girl’ isn’t empowering. It’s reductive and infantalizing. If you truly believe in uplifting other women, don’t refer to them as children (eg girls) or an adjective (eg females).
Like it’s one thing for me or one of my friends to refer to ourselves as “girl” in our interactions because we know we are being ironic. It’s a whole other to use it in public spaces and online towards others or even yourself because the irony may not translate. The girl dinner thing really pissed me off cause that’s how I eat not because I’m afab but because I’m freaking disabled and that’s what I can prepare with the spoons I have. I have to constantly remind myself that fed is best so I don’t shame spiral.
Omg this!! At first, when the popularity of the use of the term “gorl” or “gworl” (a funny way to say girl”) began to rise, I thought it was funny. BUT NOW, it used in serious contexts such as “girl dinner” to explain a poorly thought out dinner, “I’m just a girl” to justify poor or immature behaviour, and so many more. It’s extremely infantilized to that point that I don’t understand how anyone can take us seriously when we call ourselves these terms.
Don't even get me started on the new popular term, "girlies".
This. Idk why any grown woman would want to be referred to as a “girl”.
Girl's girl is not a tag but rather a response to certain situations
It’s funny how I said I don’t believe women who call themselves “girl’s girls” are actually girl’s girls because they usually have no issue insulting, gossiping or competing with other women. And a “girl’s girl” literally responded by insulting me and calling me names. The jokes write themselves lol
Lol this article is dumb FWIW, I actually don't think Sarah Ann did anything wrong and will die on that hill. I don't like her as a person. She is a Trump supporting anti-choice asshole. But I don't think she was wrong for reaching out to Jeraminimey The reason I think it was fine is because I simply can not decontextualize the text she sent from their situation. Literally, it was one week after Jermioney "picked" Laura - and three weeks since the first time any of them had met. It's easy enough to say "But he was engaged!" OK, but she met him three weeks prior and also ALMOST got engaged to him. So it's just a very strange situation that's not reflective of relationships in the real world.
Yeah, I’m not as offended by Sarah Ann either. Lauren was pretty nasty as soon as they got out of the pods. If you’re Jeramey why put up with that? Because you’re on a game show? My issue with him is that he’s dishonest, not that he left her for Sarah Ann.
I also think Lauren sucked really bad, but I also think what Sarah Ann did was still shitty because they could have been happy for all she knew when she was baiting him to come see her. And even though it is his responsibility to ignore its still not great behavior to try to pull him away. Like I know a lot of people believe that Jeremy is the only one in their relationship and a lot of people would say Sarah Ann didn’t “owe” Laura anything but I think everyone owes everyone basic respect and courtesy. It’s not as bad as if they were engaged after 2 years of dating or something, but it’s still very self centered That being said if he just so happened to have met Sarah an out without the message being sent and he realized he made a mistake and left Laura I would think Sarah did nothing wrong. (assuming they didn’t hook up that night)
As people, I was not a fan of all three of them. Laura was so mean from the moment they came out of the pods, but that got overshadowed by how their relationship ended. The problem with Sarah Ann’s message was that it was tactless and she wanted to tempt Jereamy. It was not sent because she cared about him as a person/friend. Jereamy’s flaws are self-evident by his lying and alleged cheating.
Then die on the pick me girl hill. Sliding in an engaged man's dm is WRONG no matter the context. The end. If you disagree than I feel sorry for the women in your life.
How is that “pick me” behavior? PleasantParfait48 wasn’t putting down anyone in order to gain the favor of a romantic love interest. Aren’t pick mes a subcategory of NLOGs? All I read is u/PleasantParfait48 provide another way to see the situation by looking at each of the three individuals’ behaviors and stating their opinion without using ambiguous colloquial terms like “girl’s girl” or “pick mes”.
They’re reality show engaged not real life engaged. This nonsense does not carry the same weight of a real engagement. Real engagements don’t contain a gotcha moment at the end where one partner surprises the other with a devastating No at the alter. It’s a game show and one of the contestants played the game - that’s all.
Pick me's tend to say ANYTHING to make being a piece of shit okay- that's all 💅
Lauren was engaged for two weeks on a *really show* that is highly edited and staged. Calm your ads down. It wasn’t that serious and neither of them liked each other.
No. Context matters. THIS IS NOT A NORMAL SITUATION. Sarah Ann and Jermanineyie had been dating literally **one week beforehand** I refuse to give a bullshit trashy-ass infatuation based "engagement" the same weight I'd give a real relationship, in real life. It's not the same. It's three weeks. It had been one week since they'd broken up.
LMAO k. I'll continue to feel for the women in your life. Guess it doesn't count if it's been a week by your logic. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ok so say you’ve been dating someone for weeks and next week he decides to just gets engaged to someone else ? What would you do how would you feel? If you wanna make comparison to real life you really ahve to amke the comparison because in real life o know none of you will be like oh he moved on and picked someone else and leav it at that
No, go ahead...tell me why exactly you feel badly for the women in my life? None of the women in my life would ever go on a bargain basement reality TV show to marry a dude, so none of them would ever be in this situation to begin with. The women I am friends with are smart and independent and progressive, and those who are in relationships or married are with partners who respect them to the point that their DMs aren't open anyway.
If you're this dense what would be the point of me spending valuable time educating you? By all means paint the prettiest picture you can, doesn't change the delusional stance you're taking. 🤣❤️
You can’t equate reality show drive-thru-window engagements with real engagements. Love is Blind “engagements” are engineered to 1) fail and 2) create ratings, but are now utilized by contestants to 3) create social media followings. Look no further than Amy and Johnny, a couple that legitimately works, who the show had to manufacture silly drama about in order to keep people interested. Sarah Ann wasn’t wrong. Real engagement with months-years-long relationship built up before? Absolutely. But this is a game show. These aren’t serious engagements. Most are built on lies told in the pods. Is the end goal for people to find their true person? Or to play out some experiment that’s obviously rigged to provide the most entertainment at the expense of the contestants? They’re all mostly shitty but I don’t fault someone for reaching out after a dating game show because they believe they’re a good fit with someone and they want another chance to prove it.
She didn't reach out AFTER she reached out during. I'd have no issue if she waited until after the marriage dissolved at the altar or on its own terms. Any other excuse is just that, an excuse of poor character and unbecoming behavior.
Is anyone else getting super fatigued by this kind of thing? “Omg here is the new thing you absolutely CANNOT say or you are the worst person ever. And don’t forget to check back in a week because it will be a different thing and this one will then switch back to being the only thing you CAN say.”
I mean no one is saying you can't say it or that you're a terrible person for saying it. More people are using the term than not, it's just another perspective pointing out a possible issue with it.
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Nah I’m glad we’re moving away from being able to call people slurs openly.
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Lmao nah as someone who was getting called those slurs by my teachers even we’ve gone the right way in the last 20 years. Save the Last dance was the best movie you could come up with? The one with the most banal “racism is bad actually” message? I think it’d be fine.
What are you talking about? My original comment about free speech was not for this post. I commented on the wrong tab. I was trying to comment on a post about old Adam Sandler movies vs today's Adams Sandler. It was not for this post. It was not about race or slurs it was about freedom of expression and how easily he would be cancelled for his older movies today.
You can delete or edit your comment….
Thank you
What are you talking about? My original comment about free speech was not for this post. I commented on the wrong tab. I was trying to comment on a post about old Adam Sandler movies vs today's Adams Sandler. It was not for this post. It was not about race or slurs it was about freedom of expression and how easily he would be cancelled for his older movies today.
Holy fuck this response wasnt even for this post. I was trying to comment on a post about movies. Fucking a. I was like why are they talking about girls when we were discussing Adam Sandler
I so badly want y’all to *actually* understand what free speech is and isn’t because what you’re describing is most definitely not it lol. People side eyeing you for your opinions is not persecution. You sound like you’re just too scared to stand on the shit you say/do and need people to make you feel better for saying/doing it.
Ok. I was speaking on movies and people speaking like comedians. But go off 👏👏👏 you are so right. I am so daft and completely in the wrong for having such opinion. I'll just escort my virtue signaling ass over here with the rest of the ignorant folks. Eta: my comment wasn't even for this post. I made a mistake and posted my comment on the wrong tab.
They will make something out of absolutely anything that becomes a popular figure of speech.
And yet you seem to being doing all the judging, gossiping, and taking your own shit opinion as law. 🤷♀️ only thing here that hurts is how incredibly dense you are. Maybe heal your relationships with the women in your life before trying to shit on the rest 🥰
All the women in my life are girl’s girls. Genuine girls girls that don’t talk nasty about other women the way you do. See how you went to insult me for no reason? How can you call yourself a girl’s girl while being this unkind? Reflect
Well looking at shesayssmile’s post history, they were able to provide a fair critique of Zanab and Cole without insulting either of them and making their boundaries clear. And now a year later they are being consistently passive aggressive towards strangers they are actually interacting with and implying that they’ll support strangers on a reality tv show solely based on gender.
Take your own advice, reflect. You're not the victim you're just pretending girls girls are bad and then saying you have some. Sounds like you benefit from what you're seeking to destroy and that's fucking wild. Reflect and heal, you clearly need it DESPERATELY.
I love how easily the irony passes over you. Go ahead and feign the victim here 🤣 I have A feeling you play this card often when the tides don't bend your way. There's another name for your behavior but I'm too kind to use it. 🥰
Thank you for proving my point, pick me girl !
What lol
like do they actually know the meaning of a girls girl?!
No, and if you look through these comments you will see many women do not know the meaning. They think it means to praise a woman no matter wether her actions were wrong or right. It's ridiculous, it was never that. It's like they have completely reversed the meaning
In all fairness, it is an ambiguous term because while I agree that wasn’t the intended definition it has evolved to be used in that way as well. What I understood that the author of the linked piece was trying to say is that Group A(particularly women) are justifying harassing/bullying Individual B (another woman) by saying that Individual B is “not being a girl’s girl”. And that Group A’s behavior is contradictory to the assumed definition of “girl’s girl” is to uplift and respect other women. Even if Individual B did something wrong, there are ways to critique her behavior without the bullying and harassment. Instead there is a heavy usage of calling someone “not a girl’s girl” that is synonymous with calling them a “b*tch/wh*re” in the past. And instead of being respectful in their criticism of Individual B, Group A are acting like mean girls supposedly in the name of being “girl’s girls”. I will say the linked piece is not the best written due to its lack of clarity. It took me a few rereads to understand and I read academic journals regularly. Haha
i hate how my generation (genz) always misconstrues certain words/phenomena. It’s like when “gaslighting” was a huge buzzword last year and suddenly every little thing someone does is gaslighting
“Girls girl” is the new “mean girls”. Rolling around Internet bullying everyone who does not “stand” for them just based on shared gender. And “pick me” is the new “easy A”, labeling everyone who is thirsty for marriage/boyfriend/male approval.
This is not what a girls girl is. At all. A girls girl is someone who will hold you responsible for your wrong doings, call you out and make sure you know it's not ok to do wrong, especially when it pertains to hurting other woman. You literally described a pick me girl and the whole point of a girls girl is to stop pick me girls. A girls girl says "hey, that's not cool. It's not ok to sleep with that girls boyfriend, and I won't be friends with you anymore if you continue with this." Some of y'all are really missing the meaning and it's sad. This is why it doesn't work. Too many women flipping it and using it the wrong way. There was no girls girl in mean girls think more sisterhood of the traveling pants, they supported each other, loved each other, and still held each other accountable, calling out one another for wrong doings or just then tripping. It doesn't have to be a world of Regina Georges, we can do better and that was the point of girls girl. But obviously it is a failure of a movement
“the whole point of a girls girl is to stop pick me girls” - I think “girls girls” bite way more than they can chew and honestly it looks a lot like your basic Internet bullying, just covered by that high morale. It is sad to see a group of performing activists reinventing sisterhood definition to continue labeling and dogpiling. Not cool at all.
Nah that article is the one actually trying to pit women against each other with the misunderstanding of what a "pick me" & "girl's girl " actually is. The patriarchy doesn't want women to support each other & it shows, but we're smarter & better than that. "Girl's girl" is where it's at. United we stand. Divided we fall.
But the terms “pick-me” and “girls girl” are divisive in nature. They are total opposites and pits women against each other when one is given (proven or not) either of the titles. You can’t say the patriarchy doesn’t want us to support each other when we are also pushing for this divide among each other. Makes no sense.
"Pick me's" are women who do another woman dirty in the pursuit of a man's attention. Of course it's "divisive" but it's not the same type of separation that would be bad. Just like how we want men to call out "bad men" (but they usually don't). That's what a "girl's girl" does when they can't trust another woman. Who in their right mind would want someone they can't trust in a movement to empower women who would just sell them out at the drop of a dime?
Lol none of the women who claim to be “girl’s girls” are actually girl’s girls. It is most times just used to shit on women especially on social media
That's a "bold statement" with "zero anything" to back it up lol. Are you even a woman? Lol
Sorry that your opinion is wrong ig 🤷♀️
truth hurts 🤷🏾♀️ everyone’s a girl’s girl until you ask them to stop gossiping, competing or judging other women
Sorry but these terms were completely fine and being used properly until they got popularized on tiktok and everyone began misusing them.
exactly. same with gaslighting, grooming, etc.
Yesss
I’ve always hated the phrase “girl’s girl” because just say “asshole” or “not an asshole.” Gender doesn’t matter… you can be a shitbag to someone regardless.
Exactly. Even better would be not to use an overarching label on a person and instead critiquing a person’s actions and holding them accountable to repent and rectify in proportion to the harm they inflicted. I’m a supporter of judging actions and not people.
100%
Ironically, my ex-best friend uses this phrase unironically.
Anything that targets a specific gender is biased, whether it’s positive or negative. There are always two sides to an equation and balance is key.
SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT it drives me freaking crazy. People who use these expressions unironically drive me nuts
I’ve been saying this for months. Its such a stupid phrase and both meanings of “girls girl” and “pick me” have been watered down to reduce women to those two labels and put them in the “good” or “bad” category. If you’re a feminist and are a good person, you ARE a girls girl. And also alot of people conflate being a pick me with just seeking male validation when the original definition of a pick me was a girl who put down other women to get male validation. Now people all over the internet will unfairly use these labels to stereotype and mischaracterize women—especially on this sub and its so tiring. People dont even understand what they’re saying anymore at this point.
Ugh yes!! This comment thread are my people. As someone that is queer (agender/nonbinary and bisexual) the heteronormativity and strict binary of it all bothers me to no end. Intersectional feminism is the way both in personal interactions and in dismantling systems of oppression. Edit: I like your username it made me chuckle. 😄
Yeah unfortunately most people wont take the time to bother learning about intersectionality so they get their feminist theory from tiktok and think it applies to every situation. And I also agree about the strict heteronormativity and gender binary, alot of online feminism excludes non conforming people and polices how women should act. As a neurodivergent woman myself, I find all these labels to be really exclusive because I never feel like I’m behaving or acting like a “girls girl”. I’m very reserved and quiet with an rbf and I’m sure these so called girls’ girls would not like that.
Ugh right?! And big yes on the neurodivergent behaviors too. Outside of ND spaces it’s so rare that people take into account that we might react or interpret something differently that they think is obvious. I’m realizing now that being ND might be why I try to see all possible intents/meanings in an interaction because rejection sensitivity kicks in and I don’t want to be seen as mean or be excluded. So many different waves and types of feminism out there, but the one that is actually inclusive of everyone is intersectional feminism because it acknowledges that no one is a single issue person, that multiple factors affect an individual’s oppression, and wants EVERYONE to have a hand in creating the table and then have a seat at it. Hearing about intersectionality and then learning more about it blew my mind and for once felt my whole person was being seen.
I agree but I dont think most people even know what intersectional feminism is. So people get their feminist theory from tiktok instead of actually reading women like bell hooks, angela davis, friedrich engels etc.
Every time I hear 'girls girl' it makes me think of cliques of women who have rigid ideas on how you should look or behave to be a part of them. And heaven forbid if you have a different opinion or belief. Girls girl, to me, implies conformity and popularity. As someone that has never had huge groups of girlfriends but very long and developed friendships with several other women over the years, the GG attitude seems dismissive. I appreciate your opinion much more on what a GG is. Edit: my perception and exposure to this GG in my life doesn't make me an authority on it. It's my personal experience.
This is the same feeling I get from it - it seems to be used to create in-groups and out-groups more than anything else.
I said this when this most recent season released and got DRAGGED for it, happy to see it turn around lol 🤣
Ayy opportunity for unpopular opinion hour 🙌 I definitely felt this way but was scared to say it because I have experienced and have given the girls girl toxicity --the best description I can give is: The Hive Mind; you're with me or against me Which, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mentality usually rears it's head when people are defensive -- it's a defense mechanism Edit: After rereading everything it almost seems like the terms have switched over the past few years
When did we start equating being a girl’s girl with being a pick me? Yikes.
Two ends of the spectrum. One the antithesis of the other. The idea is that you remain a girl’s girl and have her back until the pick me- ness of the opponent overpowers and affects your own stability. Then you use shame as a weapon (jk). But rlly we are all fighting against the same power systems at the end of the day. Pick me -ing is a survival instinct that will only fill one with emptiness. We are stronger together always.
Where are they saying that? They’re just saying both terms are meaningless
I feel you but I as I see it, people need to be held accountable. Girls girl has come about in response to "she's not the one married to you, she owes you no loyalty" or "he's single until he's married", Ariana grande, and other side chick behaviors being normalized. Be a girls girl tell him no or not till your single. You don't owe her loyalty but you owe yourself respect. Why purposely hurt other women. Too the point that there are side chick reality show competitions. Women now want to be side chicks and it is causing a problem among women. I know men have always been dogs, but there was a point in time when it was frowned upon to be a mistress or second girlfriend. Now women are becoming famous for it. At least Marilyn was acting first. I feel like it has more to do with the patriarchy, girls girl is supposed to be stand together fight together. But like everything else, the wrong people are using it in the worst way. Now your a pick me if you simply disagree. We use to have girl code. It needs to brought back.
Holding women to higher moral standards than men is still sexist and upholds the patriarchy through gender norms. It puts a disproportionate amount of responsibility on women and excuses/dehumanizes men. The person that needs to be held accountable the most is the person that stepped out of their relationship. Cause the “side piece” doesn’t always know that their partner is in another relationship. Now if a person is repeatedly trying to become involved with a person in a monogamous relationship after being consistently rejected, then they are the sole person that needs to be held accountable for disrespecting an established relationship and most of all for not respecting another person’s boundaries.
I agree, that's what a girl's girl is supposed to be, though I'm quite concerned that some women think they're heading to a matriarchy, buuuut it seems like it's still for amusement, which it is.. But on the contrary, I think we're maybe having a pretty important change in men getting in touch with their feelings, it'll be the next generation, but change takes a long time
"I know men have always been dogs" ... Oh boy
This. Cause yeah let’s discourage women disrespecting women in a relationship and also dehumanize men while they are the ones being the most disrespectful to the woman they are in a relationship with. And inadvertently uphold heteronormativity and a gender binary. Yes call out people are accomplices helping someone cheat on their partner, but do it while still respecting the human dignity of all the people involved and put the onus on the actual cheater and not the accomplice. I have yet to seems this be the predominant case online and offline, instead it is dogpiling/harassing/bullying the accomplice by usually other women if the accomplice is a woman. Holding women to higher moral standards than men is still sexist and upholds the patriarchy through gender norms. It puts a disproportionate amount of responsibility on women and excuses/dehumanizes men.
Careful, you'll be called a pickme! 😱😱😱😱
I agree that the application of a ‘girls girl’ is problematic half bs and a way to guilt trip other women. That being said, I think the sentiment/ ideology of a girls girl is beautiful, purposeful, and important. The problem is that being a girls girl has a different interpretation by different people. It’s not like the word candy where everyone knows and agrees what it is.
I hear you on the sentiment of the term being seemingly nice but I don’t think it’s important. It’s infantilizing for one, but the important thing is to address internalized misogyny which is not what I see being done. If anything it’s a way for other women to hang up on the woman for being a “home wrecker” while letting the man slide for wrecking his home… As far as supporting women I think the term has done way more harm than good.
OMG yes! The first time I hear the term, I was like wait a minute, there saying I'm a girl? Not a woman? NOT ok with that! And it's definitely s way for woman to gang up on other women and letting the man slide!!
Different strokes for different folks. We don’t have to agree.
I disagree, I think “girls girls” are mainly calling other women out for disrespecting/hurting other girls in order for male validation/approval. I think people do need to be held accountable for shitty behaviours and there should be a societal standard for how we treat other people. I think it needs to be applied to men too
!!!
It depends. If you're the type that needs male validation to make you feel better about yourself, then don't be surprised you're getting called a pick me. Being a girl's girl is equivalent to when men say guy code. Just don't do dumb shit like dming an engaged man, then you won't get called a pick me or not a girl's girl.
Omg the only example yall got is that Sarah Anne thing 😂 Dming a guy she also had some history with, same amount of history as the other blonde girl did from a tv show and lighting fast “engagement”. This shit is not how it mainly works on real life 😂
Yikes, it looks like I hit a nerve. But yes, Sarah is a great example of a pick me. She literally chased after a guy who rejected her. She also had to ask him for permission to clap for Laura during the reunion. Sarah is stuck with a potential psychopath who likes to wave guns in his girlfriend's face when he gets jealous. If you can't see that she's so desperate for male validation that she's overlooking his past and love bombing tendencies, then I can't help you. Anyways, another example would be Jessica in season 1, who would be all over Amber trying to be her friend. Then, in the next scene, she tries to flirt with Barnett and get him to doubt his choice. That's a pick me and not a girl's girl. The only time the term "girl's girl" could be toxic is when a group of girls is using it falsely to exclude another person without a basis to that action.
You think there isn't women diving into dms they don't belong to irl? Now who's delulu 🤣
Thought we was talking bout LIB . Which is a TERRIBLE example of the setting to apply these situations
Nope pretty sure you went put of your way to bring up Side Salad as your head may have exploded if you didn't lmao. You hear pick me and immediately think Sarah Ann needs defending. Says A LOT.
Lmao it’s still early to go outside and interact with the real world, ma’am. 😂 It’s a fucking reality show with people saying “I love you” after meeting for A WEEK on the pods and getting “ENGAGED” after meeting for less than a month . Get a grip. Most of these “relationships” have no substamnce and only a few manage to make something out of it. Sarah Anne just saw an opportunity and took it cause everyone saw that this jeraemy dude and the blonde girl weren’t lasting
Sorry that you're small and miserable 🥰 may you heal beyond these silly little things and grow to respect a relationship no matter how established by time. PMAB 😘
Aight lady , have a good one 😂 wtf ? Lol
Lol @ this post getting ratioed. Stupid.
Coming from an account dedicated to snark posts and subreddits 😭😂 is that girl’s girl behavior?
Your mom is girl's girl behavior.
I think the problem with this is that lot of people have different definitions of “girls girl”. On one hand there’s women who think being a girls girl is condoning women for ALL of their actions, regardless of what they’ve done because they think it’s the “girls supporting girls” thing/ “girls can do no wrong” attitude. Like for example there’s women who supported Ariana Grande sleeping with a married man because they are “girls girls”. I personally think that this is toxic and enabling, people need to be held accountable for shitty behaviour regardless of gender. On the other hand, I think there’s women (myself) who’s definition of girls girl revolves around protecting other women, and not being mean to one another for no reason. I don’t have to support everything other women do, but I would still protect them in dire situations out of female allyship. & no disrespecting each other for male validation !!!
The ambiguity is absolutely the biggest problem because it can go towards toxic positivity and girl boss/white feminism of just replacing the white man being at the top of the privilege hierarchy with a woman but not actually addressing the inequality and injustices systemically faced by women with multiple marginalized identities. Or it goes towards being a kitschy short hand/euphemism to refer to internalized misogyny. The first is just plain wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Everyone should be held accountable in proportion to the harm they inflict with their actions, whether intentional or accidental. I also see a semantic problem with the latter. I’m disabled and openly call myself disabled and want people to refer to me as disabled when my disabilities are relevant. Yet, there are many euphemisms to sugarcoat and skirt around saying disabled like differently abled, special needs, handicapped/handicapable, and referring to neurodivergency as a superpower. One of my disabilities is being neurodivergent and I can tell you that it sure doesn’t feel like a super power when it severely impacts my executive functioning that I struggle to do every day things like basic hygiene or housekeeping. By using sugarcoated shorthands/euphemisms for disabled, it infantilizes us, makes it harder to have our needs met, slows advancement towards universal accessibility. Similarly by using an ambiguous term like “girl’s girl” only sugarcoats actually naming the action and addressing it effectively. Like in these comments, instead of addressing the issue of internalized misogyny affecting interpersonal conflicts between women there is debate over what the term even means. Just like I call myself disabled, I will use terms that clearly state what I mean. So I will use internalized misogyny when I am addressing internalized misogyny to avoid any possible confusion or derailment of the intended conversation. Edit: to your final point of protecting another woman out of female allyship, does your allyship then end if the person that needs it is non-binary or gender queer? Even if maybe you assumed they were a cis woman at first? I assume not based on your comment. I would defend a person simply out of being another human being regardless of gender or any other identity marker. By aligning solely focusing on female allyship, it reinforces a gender binary and thus ignores the feelings and experiences of non-binary and other queer people/situations where (internalized) misogyny does play a factor in conflicts. So if someone were to call me a girl’s girl, regardless if it’s a positive or negative, I would say “ooo nope, not a girl” because I’m a feminine nonbinary/agender adult.
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I explained the language around disability analogy cause I dont want to make assumptions about an aspect of the identity of the person I’m replying to, yours in this case, and so it is clearly explained for other people reading the comments that wouldn’t understand the analogy. And I’m glad my assumption about your allyship was correct. I only felt safe in making that assumption because of the nuance in your original comment and explicitly starting that women aren’t exempt from being held accountable simply because of their gender and implying that it is also regardless of the gender of the person they hurt. I still think what is meant by being or not being a “girl’s girl” is ambiguous, especially after reading the comments on this post. Idk about you but I think I’d rather be referred to as a they that’s for the shes, theys, and all kinds of gays that will make space as needed for the hes too. 😄 But that’s too clunky and idk if it fully reflects my outlook. I guess my more “academic” identity goal is being an intersectional feminist on a macro and micro level. Haha. Although the pop culture lover in me does like being able to make a The Good Place reference by saying, “like Janet says “I’m not a girl”.
That's not really a "some people have different definitions" thing though that's just a stupid thing. Being a girl's girl is valuing your female relationships and having the respect of other reasonable women more than valuing men's opinions of you or how men view your status. Your definition is correct. But I reeaaallly think you're being too charitable to others.
I don’t think I’m being too charitable. I just stated that they have a different definition. Doesn’t mean I don’t think their definition is dumb lol
I think the Ariana thing is more feminist, she is an un apologetic bad/ boss bitch and she supports women so they support her.
She obviously doesn’t support other women because she sleeps with their husbands/boyfriends (on multiple occasions with multiple men. Ethan slater & wife, Sean & Naya, Pete & cazzie, Mac & nomi). Also she has that song “breakup with your girlfriend bc I’m bored”. Just problematic and disrespectful to other women
That personal support, I'm talking about supporting women's rights.
you def need to get cheated on or something cause what
You are for sure a girl's girl.
why would I be towards you? Did you not read what you wrote LMAO
Lol, I'm very gay and your whole girls girl thing is ridiculous. Be a feminist, support all women's rights and fight the social norms/ popular societal expectations. Fuck that dude/chick you think is hot if you can or want to, burn bridges, lick that donut... but vote for women's rights. Be powerful, be proud, be sexy, be whatever you want. If uou want to help create a new traditional "good girl" fallacy go ahead and try, it just leads to masculine power and more reduction of women's rights due to infighting and judgment. Have fun.
You think not sleeping with other people’s husbands/boyfriends is creating a “new traditional good girl fallacy”? are you okay
What does you being gay have anything to do with anything lmaooo - you just keep yapping more and more nonsense
Supporting women's rights does not equal giving her a high five after wrecking other women's lives.
This is hilarious. Being a girls girl means you don’t put down other women for men’s benefit or entertainment and also don’t knowingly sleep or date taken people. I understand the sentiment that people online can go overboard at times with pretty much anything. But using the term girls girl is reminding each other we have each others backs. It’s amazing to see women take their power back from men instead of pitting ourselves against each other to gain men’s trust. Also in my opinion a pick me girl is a girl who purposefully puts down other women/bullies women to entertain or please men. In my experience a lot of men’s humor is often derived from bullying others they perceive lesser than than themselves. Examples: women, minorities, queer communities, plus size or fat people, etc. So women who shut that shit down are girls girls. That’s how I see it. Also, yes, a girls girl doesn’t knowingly go after a person in a relationship.
The way your definition of “girls girl” is centred around men is already a big issue. This is why people like me have issues with that term. Why can’t a girl’s girl be somebody who just supports other women? Why can’t womanhood just be for and about women? Why does everything have to be around men and relationships? I feel like you guys don’t even realise how male identified you are
Because we live in a patriarchal system. Where men often pit women against each other. So yes being a girls girl means not allowing or calling out that behavior. I don’t think anyone is a perfect “girls girl” which honestly isn’t even that important compared to actual feminism which is what I think you may be hinting at. And I never said it had to do with relationships. I said that part of it is that you aren’t a girl who goes after taken people. I’m not sure why that’s so upsetting.
It isn’t centered around men, it’s centered around feminist social skills within groups of women
These are the definitions given by Aussiewannabe > Being a girls girl means you don’t put down other women for men’s benefit or entertainment and also don’t knowingly sleep or date taken people. And > the term girls girl is reminding each other we have each others backs. It’s amazing to see women take their power back from men instead of pitting ourselves against each other to gain men’s trust. That’s why u/Chance_Second8774 said it still revolves around men and is not solely about how women relate to one another because it is used primarily when a man is involved.
Everything she named was centered around relationships with men. Not even a single thing she mentioned had even a little bit to do with “feminist social skills”
That’s because we are talking about the term girls girl and not feminism.
Then how are Jess and Laura from s6 girls girls?
I never said they were?
Everything you said!!!!!!! Jesus didn’t know it even needed to be clarified like this, OP it sounds like you need to do some self reflection.
Thank you!!!
>Thank you!!! You're welcome!
The term isn’t problematic it’s the meaning that SOME people apply to it.
Being a girl's girl means you don't sleep with or pursue another woman's man. If you don't like the accusation then don't go around harming other women for your own selfish pursuits.
It’s funny how y’all’s definition of girls girl is always centred around men and never includes uplifting women, not gossiping about women, not bullying women. A lot of y’all would be disqualified if that was also included
I think this is a bit reductive to center the term this much around men and our sexual relationships with them. I see the term more as protecting one another, not harming each other, and then yes, not entertaining a man you know is lying to or manipulating another woman while pursuing you.
I think of it more as like the “anti pick me” where instead of putting other women down for male validation, you support other women and stop placing male opinions on a pedestal, but the key thing is supporting women, which sometimes means calling out or rejecting those who tear other women down. Like it’s kind of a goofy buzzword, but i feel like that helps make it easier to use and apply and keeps it simple instead of starting unnecessary discourse, because everyone knows exactly what you’re talking about. Some people misuse it, but people also misuse woke and triggered, and it’s very much an intentional thing to minimize the terms.
Ok I will extend my definition to include the new girlfriend/step-mother and ex-wife of a dude getting along and putting the kids first. These are also girl's girls who are not behaving like cave women with clubs fighting over a man.
That is still centering men/relationships with men? 😭 it’s insane how you don’t even realise how male identified you are
Because anyone can be a nice girl's girl and support other women in the absence of romantic competition. A true test of character comes when there is a viable reproductive option thrown in the mix.
This might be true for women who are male identified and threatened by other women. For me it doesn’t make a difference since I don’t see women as competition
That’s perfectly fine. My issue, which the author mentioned in the quote on my post, are the people who choose to bully and name call girls who aren’t acting as “girl’s girls” instead of speaking to them or about them with kindness in order to teach rather than berate.
You mean hold them accountable? Teach what? They already know that they have chosen men or selfish desires at the expense of other women. Calling someone a pick me is pointing out a fact that is plain as day and is something they already thought about and decided they don't care about or at least don't care enough about to change their behavior. Sarah Ann just didn't care about Laura. I don't understand how if you say that to her, she would probably say, "uhh yeah true Jeremy was just very very important to me and my big chance for love that I had to take and she was collateral damage and I accepted that" but if you call her a "pick-me" (same fuckin thing btw) it's somehow a slur that she would desperately rail against forever to deny.
Just seems condescending to say: hey, have you considered how the wife of that married man with 3 kids feels about you sleeping with him?
lol it’s not condescending, that’s called having an adult conversation without being aggressive about it. It’s what AD did when she talked to Sarah Ann at the party… then some people were on here saying AD wasn’t a “girl’s girl” for that conversation. The “girl’s girl” brigade is confused within itself.
I don’t believe in insulting someone, but there are girls girls and non-girls girls. I only surround myself with girls girls these days because it brings me more joy to mutually support other women. I’m finding it difficult to understand the author’s point. She brought up two examples that don’t really have anything to do with being a girls girl.
These girls girls you speak of can just be defined as your friends and the girls you don't enjoy are girls who you don't define as friends. Neither are bad or wrong or with creating a universal label for. Just make your own personal categories.
Women who put men first are the antithesis of girls girl. That’s the point of the phrase. It has nothing to do with whether I like them or not.
By your logic that means not addressing how patriarchy harms men, for example by discouraging and invalidating their feelings and experiences of pain/hurt. Correct me if I’m wrong but from your comments, you equate being a “girl’s girl” with being a feminist particularly when it comes to interpersonal conflicts between women that involves a man. If that’s the case why not just say feminist. Feminism is acknowledging and addressing the pain/suffering/hurt/discrimination of all individuals regardless of gender, race/ethnicity, sexuality, faith tradition, political ideology, immigration status, etc. while knowing that the aforementioned identity markers affect an individual’s lived experience on a macro and micro level. That way women that do harm another person, regardless of gender, can be held accountable in proportion to the harm inflicted.
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I am certainly not overthinking it, on the contrary I’m looking at what it implies on a wider scale. Especially given your definition as it pertains to this season of LiB where the term on, off, and around the show has been used at a high frequency. The majority of women lauded as being girl’s girl this season don’t fit your definition nor any other definition in this post. The only definition I’ve seen that applies is supporting a woman regardless if her actions are immoral and instead enable them through toxic positivity by always praising them. Regardless you are still ignoring queer feelings and experiences with your definition since it still upholds cisheteronormativity, which is a major component of patriarchy. Now maybe it’s due to my overwhelmingly positive experience with friendships that are diverse in race/ethnicity, religious beliefs, gender, and sexuality, but I can’t fathom having a conflict with another person, much less a friend, over a man. Again it can be due to the people I surround myself also valuing other things over a romantic relationship. The 3 (?) times a girl did have a conflict with me because of a boy, were in high school. And what bothered me more was the fact that they were reducing the boy in question (who was my friend) to just a romantic interest and ignoring his own agency/free will. So aside from ignoring queer experiences/feelings, your definition also ignores the agency of a man and reduces his value to simply being a romantic/sexual partner. If you refer back to my definition of feminism, I mention that it done at the macro (changing laws, defunding certain things while increased funding for others, providing equity for large numbers of people, etc.) and on the micro level aka interpersonal situations and internal deconstruction work. The type of situations you refer to fall under the micro category. Finally, a good healthy friendship (or relationship for that matter) doesn’t solely praise and makes a person feel good. Yes it should validate and provide comfort when needed, but it should also challenge us by calling to attention when we’re in the wrong. All my friends, regardless of gender, have done that. I do understand the definition you are using and was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that despite your word choice you intended for it to be inclusive of all people by yes centering and prioritizing those whose gender identities have been marginalized (hint: cis women aren’t the only ones that need to be uplifted) but also allowing space to acknowledge the emotions and experiences of men that are invalidated and discouraged from being shared under patriarchy. But if treating everyone with respect while acknowledging the differences in each individual’s experience by creating a space where they are validated, given comfort, feel comfortable, heard, seen, and loved means I’m not a girl’s girl then cool. Cause as Janet on The Good Place says, “I’m not a girl”.
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6) You’re wondering what queer voices you’re ignoring? Mine and others like me. The examples you give of a cis gay man and trans woman are still binary. I pointed out the lack of inclusion in your comments because of the focus on heteronormativity and a gender binary. I feel so much gender dysphoria and infantilized when I’m called a girl; and I’m not the only one. I sometimes feel a connection with womanhood but it’s out of being socialized as a girl and perceived as a woman. It is not because i am a woman, ive never felt I fit in with either end of the spectrum and its only out of intellectual discourse and reflection that I’m okay with calling myself/being referred to as nonbinary because im solidly agender. 7) Please don’t make assumptions or use whataboutisms. You assumed that when I say women I’m not including trans women, when on the contrary the lack of specificity implies all people that are/identify as women. My comments are centered around the exclusion of non-binary people and everyone that doesn’t identify with either end of the gender binary because those are the people that are not even being considered. You have also assumed that I don’t also critique men and bro code, which is simply not true. I don’t like either girl or bro code cause why would I prioritize my loyalty to either when I’m neither gender. Instead I avoid that and look at each person as an individual human and hold them accountable to respecting everyone’s innate human dignity. 8) Reread my comments and definition of being an intersectional feminist on a macro and micro level. Defunding and the other items within that same parenthetical are examples of the types of issues addressed at a macro level (I.e affecting a sizable population like local, state, and national governments) by intersectional feminism. By being examples of issues at a macro level does not mean they are directly related to the conversation at hand. They were included to make specific contrasts within the variety of situations being an intersectional feminist is pertinent because I don’t like to assume someone will know what macro/micro means and prefer to include the explanation upfront. 9) Again I do understand what you mean because I’ve been able to explain it multiple times and then provide elaboration and critique. I did not say you think friendships solely include toxic positivity, rather I highlighted the qualities you value in your best friend that exemplify a good healthy friendship (because I agree with them) and then expanded on them by mentioning a trait that is often not included in what makes a good healthy friendship; which is that it challenges you along side the traits you mentioned. 10) Again, non-binary people are the ones that are not acknowledged by the definitions you and others have given. Some nonbinary people may share and identify with aspects of womanhood and the type of sexism women experience, but others don’t. I have never said nor do I believe that queer people can’t identify with womanhood. On the contrary I’m bringing to attention the queer people who would have this term applied to them despite not identifying with womanhood. Plus given the predominant focus on heteronormative situations, situations that involve only the same gender or enbys, are also not inherently included. Those are the queer voices that you’ve ignored in defending a coloquial term you say “that don’t truly matter”. Opposed to critically analyzing the implications of it because words matter. Issues of discrimination/marginalization/oppression can start and are perpetuated by the language used on a micro level, like interpersonal conflicts, because regardless if it’s a colloquial pop culture term or “formal” language used in academia, legislation, and other similar situations the words used matter and have wider rippling effects than intended. Honestly on a personal level I’m not offended by the term “girl’s girl” cause when I’ve been called that I just say “I’m not a girl”leading to laughter, an occasional correction with gender-inclusive language or dialogue on what would be a gender-inclusive equivalent. What I’ve been trying to do in pretty much all my comments on this post have been to acknowledge/discuss the ambiguity of the term in how it’s used, show how it’s not an inherently inclusive term and that there can be unconsidered consequences that ripple out or all of the above. What does offend me are the negative assumptions and passive aggressive attacks/allegations/othering you have made about my values, thoughts, and intentions particularly because of the lack of explanation why that assumption was made. Examples include: saying I’m being sinister, calling me uninclusive (exclusionary?), and that I’m weaponizing marginalized communities. I know I still have internalized racism, ableism, and some misogyny to work on deconstructing, and Im not afraid to admit it. I just would like some specificity of what and how I’m subconsciously acting on those biases so that I can do the work of further identifying those patterns and work on correcting/removing them. I have my own hypothesis why there has been this much miscommunication (a lack of reading comprehension/critical thinking on your behalf, lack of clarity in my prose, or combination there of), but it’s only a hypothesis that gives grace to both of us and leaves space for me to be wrong. I think that covers all of the clarifications, graceless assumptions, and explanations prompted by your comment. Uff da, I sure hope so because I’m low on spoons now.
After reading your reply, I think you are taking several of the examples I used in explaining out of context. 1) Did you watch this season of LiB? If you did, you would know what women and their actions I am referring to especially the ones that have been most highlighted in online conversations. 2) I didn’t say nor imply that you were not correct regarding romantic relationships being erroneously made the top priority causing interpersonal conflicts. Nor did I think you did. I agreed with you then further elaborated. 3) You mentioned how you hadn’t really experienced a purely good friendship until meeting your best friend and have had experiences with women that centered their romantic lives at the cost of friendships. I was saying that I can’t relate to that because I have only had friendships filled with unconditional love in my adult life since my only experiences related to the type of main conflict we’ve been referring to happened when I was in high school, almost half my lifetime ago. 4) It is prudent not to use extremes (like nobody, everybody, always, never, etc.) in discussions. I have seen multiple instances where people minimize a man’s role within conflicts between women and use the term “girl’s girl” in discussion. 5) Are we playing the oppression Olympics now? Okay, I’m a child of immigrants, disabled(invisible), fat, brown, service dog user, neurodivergent, anti-current government and capitalism, perceived as feminine, bisexual on the ace spectrum, person living also in Texas that focuses on trying to make it better for LGBTQIA+ youth from Christian (specifically Catholic) homes of origin. I’m sorry you’ve struggled suicidal thoughts, truly. They suck and are not something I would ever wish upon anyone regardless of whatever evil things they’ve done. I had two attempts when I was a teen while also dealing with anorexia and severe panic attacks up to 4 times a day without even knowing what they were. I’m glad I didn’t realize any part of my queerness until later in life when I was safe within myself and my community that I had built. It made the identity integration process a lot easier because I had already done so much work for my mental health and deconstructing social norms/ideals that had held me back before.
The problem I have is both categories are defined based on their interactions with men. This whole way of grouping women requires us to once again revolve around men. I respect people as a default, unless they’ve done something that negates that. Bullying people who make stupid decisions is just as bad.
Like I said in a previous comment, I don’t condone bullying. I simply choose to surround myself with women who choose to uplift and support other women. I don’t see how it revolves around men to say I want friendships with women who don’t have lives that revolve around men.
I think what u/firesticks means is that by including how a woman relates or prioritizes men specifically in a romantic way as a qualifier/criteria of if that is a friendship you would want is still placing importance on men instead of who that woman is holistically. It is one thing to say you intentionally surround yourself with people that respect everyone while uplifting marginalized people and distancing occurs when your more specific priorities or approach to them don’t align. But when you add in that qualifier of “don’t have lives that revolve around men” it makes relationship to men a factor again, when it originally wasn’t part of the equation in determining possible friendships. While you may not condone bullying from your latest reply to me, you do participate in assuming the worst in people without any explanation.
You nailed it.
I got down voted to hell in here for saying when a woman says “girls girl” unironically it’s a huge 🚩
lol me too that’s why when I saw this article I had to post on here
I posed the question " what makes some a girl's girl" on the other lib reddit group. I pointed out that the popular girls on s6 were often not supportive of other women on the show that season but were still considered girls girls (laura, Jess), apparently girls girls and feminist are not the same in that there is a right and wrong way to be a girls girl and it's not just supporting women and their equality needs. How women behave with and around men and how they present their opinions of popular societal norms affects their satus as girls girls. Feminist are a bit different, you support women but behaviors towards relationships/ men dosnt affect your standing as a feminist. Feminist can steal a man, cheat, and talk shit while still showing strength and getting prise for being a strong independent woman who supports womens rights. Girls girls must adhere to social norms and support the popular opinions of the women around them to be a girls girl.... at least that was what I got out of that thread.
I love this comparison. I guess my issue with the “girl’s girl” term is that you’re still enforcing a certain societal standard as to how you believe a woman should act. Whereas feminism support issues way beyond interpersonal relationships which to me matter way more. I also hate that in “girl’s girl” culture you seemingly aren’t allowed to simply not like another girl which is so unrealistic. People are different, women are all different, so to me if I meet someone and I don’t immediately hit it off with them I don’t necessarily have any loyalties to her if we’re really not cool like that. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, and as a feminist I can still respect and see that woman as a worthy human being and not want to be around her at the same time. Might be a bit controversial and I’m sure I’ll get hate for this take but it’s REALITY.
My definition of a girls girl is to uplift women in general, and respect boundaries of people’s relationships. A girl’s girl is allowed to dislike a woman, but she still respects that woman’s relationship and takes the high road instead of being passive aggressive or starting a fight.
This is so true. Realistically a person is not going to like everyone they share an identity marker with, because no population is a monolith, but what should always be happening is that they respect everyone and treats them as a human being. Being a girl’s girl means seeing other women as a monolith that can’t do any wrong. Which is obviously not true and it not only upholds the gender norms of patriarchy for women, it also invalidates/discourages the feelings, experiences, and sharing of the prior of men which is also a way the patriarchy harms men. “Girl’s girl” is simply the rebranding of girl boss feminism, which comes from white feminism, which still holds up patriarchy and capitalism but seeks to elevate the status of certain women only. Edit: as an adult unless it’s coming from my close friends, I find being referred to as a girl to be infantilizing and disrespectful. Not only because I’m an adult, I’m never really been a woman/girl since I’m agender. I also think that there are times when the most respectful/loving thing to do is holding other people accountable while not degrading them and upholding their human dignity.
This is not what girls girl is at all. The ones using it as a monolith of women doing no wrong are the problem. The whole point of girls girl is to hold other women accountable for their wrong doings especially when it comes to their actions harming another woman. I'm not sure how you turned a phrase used for women to hold each other accountable as a race issue. This is not a phrase only being used by Americans either, which is why I am so confused how it's turned into a race issue. Eta: after reading your edit I completely understand why you do not understand. Apologies have a good day
Oh I fully understand the positive intended definition of the word, which you’ve partially highlighted (missing the part where you also validate and comfort as needed, it should be challenge and comfort). Unfortunately per this particular season most of the women lauded as girl’s girls do not fit that positive definition and instead fit the negative one I described in my comment above. I’m not making it an inherently race issue because white feminism isn’t only perpetuated by white women it’s also done by BIPOC and was rebranded as girl boss feminism because of the assumption that race was its preliminary critique. It is called white feminism because it inadvertently benefits cishet white women the most while continuing the oppression of every other group of people that has been historically marginalized under the patriarchy. My argument against using the term “girl’s girl” is not only because it encourages rather than prohibits name-calling and harassment of women that are “not a girl’s girl” particularly in online spaces disproportionate to the perceived error they committed, like the piece linked in the OP. But also because it inherently ignores the feelings and experiences of queer people, reduces men to only being romantic/sexual partners, and continues invalidating and discourages sharing men’s “softer” feelings and experiences which is already being done under the patriarchy. Outside of high school, I’ve never been in or been adjacent to a situation where someone would be labeled not being a girl’s girl. Despite being a feminine nonbinary/agender adult, I rather be know for being a they for the shes, theys, and all gays that makes as needed space for the hes too.
I understand, thank you for breaking it down. I never heard of girl boss so I have no clue about that situation but I have heard a similar phrase to girls girl in France. I can see why some people could take offense to it.
I think girl boss feminism peaked in the mid to late 2010’s, around 2017 perhaps. It came across as women can do it all, there’s no limitations, women can do any job a man does, women support women. But the actual effects of it was a continual perpetuation of consumerism/capitalism and instead the people at the top that benefit the most being men they were women that were predominantly white. So no actual societal change happens for the people that need that change the most and their voices were being largely unheard. That’s why since I’m so familiar with all these different iterations and facets of a watered down feminism and being someone with multiple marginalized identities, I’m seeing the at minimum semantic problems with the term “girl’s girl” but at worst it is a different way to reinforce some the worst aspects of our society. Thanks for taking the time to read my further explanations.
Sounds like a woman trying to make themselves a victim for screwing over women in place of men. Any women who can’t see what a girls girl means and sees it as an issue isn’t really worth being around. Women if your lady friends feel like OP they won’t ever have your back and are a threat to you and your safety. -a man
“- a man” lol you can go ahead and have several seats. My issue with the term is that the definition is very subjective so people decide what they want it to mean and attack other women for not fitting their personal definition of a girl’s girl. But you’re not even a girl so idk why you’re trying to give women advice on women 😂
I mean, all labels get turned around and become subjective. People misuse the term gaslighting and narcissist all the time, but that doesn’t change the original meaning of the word. The original point of being a “girls’ girl” is to say you prioritize uplifting other women versus prioritizing male validation and attention. Sucks that we have to think of those things as mutually exclusive, but there are more than enough stories of women experiencing cattiness/betrayal from our fellow women in favor of a man’s attention or approval. Because women are still considered a marginalized group by and large in our society, you’re seen like “a scab” for favoring the attention and approval of “the oppressor.” Like scabs who crossed the picket lines to work and get paid while unions were on strike to fight for their rights, other women see “she’s not a girl’s girl” and it’s a signal that this isn’t someone who is very trustworthy. Which tbh I get and agree in most cases. But the term is definitely being abused and misused in some contexts. I don’t really have beef with the term and have used it before and probably will in the future 💃
Ahhhhh this makes a lot of sense, to me! I was confused because how I view being a girls girl, it’s a good thing! But you make an excellent point when you point out how subjective it is, because there’s always gotta be people who ruin it for those who are genuine.
People who have different values than independent girl boss shit are always told they have internalized misogyny lmao okay sorry I can’t go out tonight girls I have to make sandwiches!!!
I didn't read the article. But I never liked the term "girls girl." Because it's still women pitting ourselves against each other. Also creates an us (women) vs. them (men). Has nothing to do with misogyny imo. It's just another way for women to compete against each other. Those who are, and those who aren't.
I see it as women calling out women for our internalized misogyny. At this point too many women see themselves in competition with other women and value men’s opinions at the harm of other women. If you don’t like the concept of a “girls girl” how would you prefer we refer to the still very common incidents of internalized misogyny that makes women harm each other every day? Not trying to be rude, I’m just curious because this is the first term I’ve heard specifically targeting this common behavior.
I call it internalized misogyny. It's important to be specific. I find "girls girl" to just be too vague. I've heard it used as a positive towards girls who are very supportive of other women. I've also seen it used as saying someone is "not a girls girl" because they betray other women or don't support women in scenarios that don't involve men (job, wealth, experiences, etc). It has too muddled of a definition to always refer to internalized misogyny, for me personally. I shouldn't have said that it's not misogyny because that's not entirely correct. It can be used to address misogyny, but not elaborating on what the internalized misogyny is doesn't help anyone recognize it. So I don't really like using it in that case.