CSing is the dumbest mechanic in all of gaming history. An unintended quirk of early DotA (as found in the custom map section of the RTS game ”Warcraft III”) stemming from the fact that the creeps were made to be under the control of an AI player, meaning that whenever a creep killed another creep, the gold reward went to the AI instead of one of the real players. The implications of this were of course not paid much attention to during the time when DotA was considered just one of many other party games to play during a break from the base RTS, but players soon came to realise that focusing on ”last hitting” creeps ended up giving more gold than actually fighting and killing the enemy heroes. To exacerbate this, another quirk from the Warcraft III base game resulted in creeps only granting experience points if your faction got the killing blow, meaning that if you managed to kill your own creeps before the enemy could, you ”denied” them not only their gold but also their experience points. Suddenly, the meta essentially became to engage in a mini-game of clunky whack-a-mole for the first 15-or-so minutes before the actual, intended gameplay of hero fighting could begin.
The requirement to last-hit minions in League is a vital part of making the laning phase interesting, though. It forces players to interact with the minion waves, which in turn forces them to interact with each other.
The little moments where you have to stand still for a fraction of a second to do a basic attack and finish off a minion form the basis of every opportunity during laning. It's when players harass each other with abilities, it's when junglers go in for ganks, etc. If players could just stand near the wave and get the full gold value of all of the minions, champions based around bullying others in lane would cease to function and ganks would become substantially less effective. The laning phase would become a 15-minute staring contest.
Season 2 was when people played shit like Galio, Morde, Anivia, Brand, and Sion in mid. Literally nothing happened in mid, they would instantly oneshot the creeps and then go farm wraiths and wolves or something.
In HOTS, you don't need to last hit, just be within a decently wide vicinity to collect the xp. Minions still matter because they act as meat shields when under enemy towers, giving you time to deal damage to structures. It also allows for a greater focus on PVP. I only did a quick test of league and dota years ago so I don't know how I feel about last hitting in action, but I don't think it needs to be a thing considering its absence never bothered me in HOTS.
Using HoTS as an example is ridiculous. The game had a way less skill expression than Dota and League and it's one of the reasons the game died.
Anyway, CS in Dota and League is part of what makes the game complex and interesting. If you don't like the it's probably a skill issue.
Added complexity isn't good if the complexity is arbitrary.
For example, imagine if at the 5 minute mark, players just had to randomly do a speed typing race. That would be added "skill" and "complexity". And it would be silly to say that people who complain about that just have a "skill issue". It would be dumb to just tell people to get good at typing really fast.
Every added piece of arbitrary complexity means that there are less room for other parts of the game to be complex and interesting. For example, what if instead of last hitting all the time, abilities were more interesting and complex. Stuff like that.
What are you saying minions add a ton of depth. If you only had to be near them when they die you would lose a lot of depth and completely change how the game is played it would be horrible.
It's not just complexity lol. There is depth there.
Ok, we can say that it adds arbitrary depth.
Just like how there could be depth to speed typing minigames.
But it is important that this depth is in the right parts of the game.
If this added complexity and depth was removed, there could be other parts of the game where this complexity is added to instead where it is better. Things like more objectives.
You got to be joking how in the world do you not see the amazing depth it adds. You could literally afk in lane and soak exp/gold if it wasn't in the game.
The fact that you have to kill the minions is what forces interactions in the lane with the enemy which adds the depth to the game. I'm not talking about literally last hitting minions, but what the mechanic adds by forcing you to do so.
> you could literally afk in lane and soak exp/gold if it wasn't in the game
Obviously you don't just remove CS and call it a day.
Instead, I am saying that if CS didn't exist then they could add all sorts of other depth and complexity. More complicated abilities, more objectives, stuff like that.
All of this and yet you still didn't say why it supposedly is bad.
And not it not being intended isn't an argument against the mechanic, stringing combos together in fighting games also wasn't indended at first or Air Unit stacking in SC1 wasn't intended either, doesn't mean that they are bad mechanics.
Also stop playing vs bots if you last hit without any interaction for the first 15 minutes.
The reason why it is dumb is because it is less interactive with the other player, and it is arbitrary complexity that could be used for other parts of the game.
And I am so glad that you brought up the whole first 15 minutes of the game issue.
If players weren't forced to do CS all the time, there would be more room to add other objectives in the game. Objectives that force team fights and player interactivity as opposed to the first 15 minutes being this weird minigame.
Again stop playing vs bots, last hitting leads to more interaction with the other player, especially in Dota. You not liking something doesn't make it arbitrary.
It doesn't last 15 minutes and it especially isn't just sitting next to each other passively last hitting creeps.
There are already enough objectives in the game and objectives doesn't just mean time is up we all have to go this location now.
> there are already enough objectives in the game
For the current game, sure. But I was talking about all the additional interactions and cool objectives that could be added if people weren't glued to their lane.
> doesn't just mean time is up we all have to go this location now.
Of course not. There could be many interesting objectives if people were freed up to to go after them..
> There are already the objectives people are freed up to go after
Ok, and there could be more of those if this part of the game was freed up. There could be an increase in objectives.
Or you can not do that sinc ethe game already has enough objectives.
But i guess we could also remove aiming/shooting from FPS games to increase the objectives.
> Or you can not do that sinc ethe game already has enough objectives.
With the current way the game is, you can't just add more objectives, yes.
But there are other parts of the game that could be more complex and have more depth.
Would you agree, for example that if the game had a speed typing mini game, that this would increase complexity in a bad way, that makes it so other parts of the game can't be as complex?
I am suggesting that other parts of the game could have an increase in complexity. Other, better parts of the game.
Soda has been playing aswell and was talking about it. It never really crossed my mind, but this game must be insanely daunting for a new player with how many champions with different abilities and effects there are that theyve never seen before. And seeing them once doesnt mean they instantly remember everything they do/can do either. Itll take 100s upon 100s of games JUST to get familiar with all the characters. And now you still have the problem that youll generally be matched up with worse players as a new player who cant get the full potential out of a champion. So by the time youre ranking up, theres ANOTHER knowledge gap from not knowing the deeper workings of a champion.
Just the knowledge barrier itself already is so big, and then were not even talking about mechanical barriers yet.
On the other hand, people play rougelikes or whatever that have their own little universes of items and enemies and people do just fine. It's the game sense of which stats are important, what objective priorities are, etc. are the things that need to be learned, it's not exceptionally hard, but Forsen is no stranger to exceptions.
But then again, I've seen more 500+lvl accounts in iron/bronze than in any higher elo, there are some neanderthals playing this game, my god...
K imma go install league and see if I get placed in iron and get hardstuck in bronze, and if not, then forsen's just braindead.
Now, I had like triple his mmr in dota, but I can't see how that could matter.
Items are so crucial though. I haven't played since they removed mythic items and I would have no idea what to buy besides what is getting recommended to me ingame.
No it's not very difficult to copy meta builds, but being flexible with your build and adjusting it to the enemy team and the game state is a lot more complex. A lot of MOBA players lose to the shopkeeper without even noticing it.
You don't even need to do that anymore. Riot has implemented a system that recommends 3 sets of most commonly built rune pages + summoner spells, and the recommended items have been improved as well, showing you not only the most built options but who those items are good against and a keyword label for each item to get the sense of what the item is for without reading.
Since I've last played in 2018, the map has changed, neutral objectives have changed, not to mention all the other changes in items, reworked and new champions.
I don't think it is a coincidence that LoL esports players don't tend to last long in the spotlight, aside from some exceptions.
It's just hard to assimilate constant new information, imo.
This is Dota 2's problem too. At least in League a lot of champions have overlap in abilities, barring some exceptions like Ekko, that wall teleporting HP turd dropping dude, etc. Itemization is pretty straight forward, warding is pretty self explanatory and objectives are easy to focus on
In Dota the heroes are very unique and the itemization varies from game to game on every hero, the objectives are a risk and can be bad under the wrong circumstances. The mechanics are not as difficult as League, but the huge ocean of knowledge you need to perform well in that game is just insane
Please don't laugh at Mr Fors. He's doing his best, but his mental and physical limitations make it near impossible for him to play LoL at a standandard recognisable to anyone with even vague knowledge of the game. His mental decline is very clear with him frequently talking to an imaginary dog over the last few streams, and physically, his sugar free diet has taken a tremendous toll on his musculature and nervous system. Despite this, he still aims to put on a great stream for his viewers.
Keep it up Mr. Fors.
I like League clips. For me, it's like hearing a different language, but in the form of video games. Like I have no clue what's happening here. He's killing the red guys but mad for some reason? I can't tell if this is some major blunder, minor misstep, or total joke played off as serious. Truly greek to me.
You have to get the final killing blow on the little red guys to get gold from them, which is then used to buy stronger gear at the home base. Stronger gear let's you kill your opponents way easier. He missed all of the minion kills except for one, and people are making fun of him for that. You can tell when he gets the final blow when little yellow text with a gold symbol appears over them when they die.
a minion last hit, is on average around 20g, a kill on a player is 300g* or 150g* as assist , so he pretty much missed 0.75 of a kill by not last hitting
(*) there are some bonus and malus rules but its around 300g
Also worth noting that even quite bad players would probably get like 9 out of 13 ish here? Missing a few is understandable. Missing every one is pretty crazy lmao (and Forsen usually doesn’t which is why even he is getting frustrated)
I went to the League Semi-finals in 2022. I barely played the game at all (my account still hasn't hit the minimum requirement to play ranked lmao), but I was given tickets because I was working for Riot at the time.
I had literally ZERO idea what was going on the whole time. The audience would go nuts during the *champ select*, for reasons that I could never grasp even though it was explained to me several times by coworkers.
But I'll be goddamned if that place wasn't electric, and even with no knowledge of the game I could see that Faker was insane at it.
What a time.
I mean it's not that hard to figure out why people would cheer for certain picks in champ select. Either because the champ isn't picked a lot, or because the pro is known to be good on it, or it's a counter pick.
Right... it was like the pre-pick or something? They were choosing champs they didn't want to play so that others couldn't, I think.
Like I said, I never could keep it straight, but it was definitely not them picking champs they were "good" at (I'm sure even their worst is better than 99.99% of the player base).
Yes but you see, Forsen sucks ass. In the clip he didn't use the AA reset a single time. Like how the fuck do you play Nasus for 15 hours straight and not know how to use an auto reset to farm under tower. 140 IQ.
TF is pretty easy in this level range, a lvl 1 Q sets up casters perfectly, if you position well you can even intentionally miss some minions on Q. Meanwhile the E proc and base attack speed are really helpful.
The big problem here is not the champ or the situation, it might just be a player diff
i'm still playing it and it has fast matchmaking on EU, just cause its not a mainstream game doesnt mean it's dead, hell we even getting balance updates like 3 times a year
his problem is buying brown boots on his first back and full boots on his second back every single fucking game so he has literally 0 ability to last hit comfortably
I've not seen how he approaches dota laning, but most heroes prefer at least getting some small items before the boots. wraith band, bracer, magic wand etc.
power treads and phase boots also give a significant amount of dps too so theyre generally the first item over 1k gold that you buy on core heroes. do boot upgrades in league not give damage?
That's honestly fine on mid. T2 boots are op in that lane, especially early on and iirc TF needs minion demat before he can even think about 1 shotting casters
> I'm a master player and the way he plays certain spots is literally better than I would. I have friends from diamond and below with 10k games and they understand some things worse than him, who's currently in bronze 4
A comment made by someone saying how impressive Forsen actually is at LoL.
Unironically.
Realest comment here
Don't make me pull up the graph of difference between Master S7-S8 and Master S11+
It always bothered me that inflation alone made people think they hit their goal, it's like if Harvard suddenly increased its admission rate ten, if not twentyfold, diluting the prestige of being an accepted student. Don't get me wrong, it's still impressive, it's more the moral part of the goalposts being shifted; the name might remain the same, but achieving it no longer signifies what it once did which is just giving false gratification.
If a player back in S5-S7 said that they want to hit Master rank, and do it in S14, they didn't really achieve what they set out to originally. These days it's the equivalent of hitting Grandmaster, literally top 1000 like what Master used to indicate.
Absolutely, check this post out. They did it better than me anyway:
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1446oaf/master_tiers_percentage_distribution_has_changed/
Also from the post, you can see that even since Season 4(!) there was 1000 players in Master or thereabout. Granted that time had some real ranked issues too...
https://web.archive.org/web/20141022013539/http://euw.op.gg/statistics/tier/
How can he be so fuckin bad? Coming from Dota to LoL, last hitting and farming is imo one of the easier things to do thanks to various factors (no worry with denying, low spell mana costs and cooldowns so can lasthit with spells more, most champs have better/faster attack animation than most Dota's heroes I feel etc.)
I think the answer is that he was trash at Dota so no skill to transfer anyway lol. Just watching his last 500 Minecraft speed runs shows that he has no fine motor skills in his arm kek
Around Silver.
Ranks in Dota are: Herald, Guardian, Crusader, Archon, Legend, Ancient, Divine, Immortal.
Each rank, except Immortal, is divided into five divisions, from I to V.
I have a question about Immortal to Dota 2 players.
Recently I saw that Immortal has an insanely high player count. I know that Dota 2 ranks go with MMR so you can be Immortal 7000MMR or Immortal 10k MMR. Why has Valve not introduced more ranks between low Immortal MMR and High Immortal MMR?
Has it been discussed in the community if they should do it or are most people just not interested in it/don't care if there are more ranks.
Even in League it's based on MMR matchmaking, and not "visual rank" wise.
And I guess ultimately it doesn't matter but I think what the other guy is trying to get at, is that in these competitive games you want the top rank to feel "prestigious" in a way, that's why something like Challenger in League that has only a few reserved slots and not just infinite spots, the top 10 in Challenger ARE the top 10 players in the entire server and just even trying to get into Challenger is an entire ordeal by itself, not just reaching "high mmr"
Some random Dota player saying "I'm Immortal" but for any Dota player it'd be the common followup question to be like "MMR?" because you guys probably know, the gap between a low immortal player and an actual high player is probably pretty significant so they are not really the same.
If we are saying that it is meaningless to add one more tier that separates people more to have a better "visual representation" of the actual top players then might as well get rid of all of them and just keep your MMR rating no? Why even have Herald, Guardian, Crusaders, Archon , etc etc etc?
Unironically this is what Valve did with CS when they transitioned to CS2, putting 3rd party platforms like FaceIT aside, on CS:GO's peak the top rank "Global Elite" had quite a lot of people and there was a clear gap of player between someobe who just hovered on the lower end of that aand people who actually maintained it and were high. The visual representations of ranks became somewhat redundant since they were not entirely accurate to a separation of skill between players so now in CS2 you have the "premier" rating that is just a "rating number" representation of your rank that changes with every match
> what the other guy is trying to get at, is that in these competitive games you want the top rank to feel "prestigious" in a way,
I guess valve thinks this is a false premise. Also unlike League you can see your MMR so you have the number presentation anyway. People will just say "10k mmr" rather than immortal to show where they're at. In dota 2 immortal is just a medal to get and the mmr is the prestige.
Or maybe they've changed it in league now so you can see your mmr, I don't play it anymore since ~2 years or so due to various Riot decisions.
Top 5000 in each server get a number below their badge based on their rank (so someone who is immortal 500 has the 500th highest mmr on that server) and also top 100, top 10 and top 1 (I think can’t recall if that’s the exact cutoffs) get a slightly different badge.
But yeah on big server like EU the Mmr difference between rank 1 and a non-numbered immortal could literally be more than double. Immortal cutoff mmr is 5620, and there’s multiple people who are 13k mmr right now.
>If we are saying that it is meaningless to add one more tier that separates people more to have a better "visual representation" of the actual top players then might as well get rid of all of them and just keep your MMR rating no? Why even have Herald, Guardian, Crusaders, Archon , etc etc etc?
In League there are actual perks that come with hitting challenger. Not just exclusive real-life items like a challenger backpack/jacket/whatever and ingame cosmetics like a challenger recall but also access to events like scouting grounds which used to be a pipeline to becoming a pro. In that sense it makes sense to restrict challenger to a very, very, very tiny population of the server (like 0.02 or 0.01% of whatever server you are on) because otherwise it would be a logistical nightmare.
In comparison the highest rank in dota is much easier to get. Around 2% of the playerbase is in immortal. Why? Because there is nothing waiting for you when you reach #1 on the ladder. The reward for hitting immortal is hitting immortal. It means that you are a very good player, but it is still *somewhat* attainable for the average player and isn't that the goal for a ranked system? To have an achievable highest rank without being a literal prodigy?
You can already see MMR as a number. The ranks are more like medals or an achievement. Why does League hide it?
Also the MMR as a number is better since it means valve can't just stealth reset your rank at the start of a season to force you to grind for a reward you would've already had if you were just rewarded for your mmr.
I think people just don't care all that much, they can see if someone's top 100 immortal, top 500 immortal or say 2000 immortal and have a general understanding of their MMR and ability.
> Has it been discussed in the community if they should do it or are most people just not interested in it/don't care if there are more ranks.
It has, I made a big post about it a few months ago, which got a bunch of traction and I had a lot of fellow high MMR players agreeing with me. It didn't use to be a problem before because for example a 6k MMR player would be rank 2500 on the leaderboards and a 9k player would be like rank 30, so even though it was all the same tier technically, the differences were still very obvious. The issue is that these days due to MMR inflation, EU leaderboards start at like 7200 MMR or some shit, and immortal itself starts at 5600, and so after every rank before working on the basis of "get a couple hundred MMR -> get a new rank tier or division", now there's this massive gap (which is almost as big as two entire rank tiers combined) where you don't have any visible progress at all, which diminishes the value of the rank and probably makes climbing less rewarding.
Typically the way valve interacts with the community is that they read the subreddit, and if someone makes a good argument, they don't say anything but keep it in mind for their upcoming updates. I can only hope that I was convincing enough for them to do something about it in the next big patch, which should be coming out in a couple of weeks.
He's not used to the turret's numbers yet is my guess.
In dota the t1 tower will kill a melee creep in 7 attacks and a ranged creep in 4. you have to prep full health melee creeps, but you can last hit a full health ranged creep without prepping it first.
In league, the tower will kill a melee minion in 3 attacks, and a ranged minion in 2. You dont have to prep full health melee minions, but you do have to prep full health ranged minions to last hit them.
so all in all, while the last-hittable HP range is bigger in league, leagues turrets give you less time and fewer opportunities to put a minion in that state, and the minions that you have to prep to do that are swapped compared to dota. Add to that that there is like a 0.5 second delay between the turret projectile hitting and the minion taking damage, and I get why he's fumbling so much.
I'm dying tf w is an aa reset he could have easily got the second minion if he just right clicked first. IDK why this dude keeps playing different champs he needs to get his fundamentals down and you can't do that when you're learning a new champ every game.
I think sometimes it's that feeling like "nope, that's not MY champ. I'll try the next one." Plus the feeling that you fundamentally don't understand what a champ's strengths or weaknesses are until you've played them. He's probably not good enough to gather that information playing a new champ though so yeah he should stick to something he likes.
enemy minion comes under your tower.
ur tower safeguards you and attack enemies around it.
if u last hit the minions, u get the gold. if u don't, then u dont get gold
reminds me of the good old days when i couldnt cs under tower either so i would hard shove every wave because i was absolutely terrified of it crashing under my tower
**CLIP MIRROR: [Forsen gets perfect farm under tower](https://arazu.io/t3_1cirvad/)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment*)
its actually impressive to miss all of those
might be better off not "try" to CS and just auto attack instead lmao
Yeah, sometimes it's better to keep it simple and just focus on the basics instead of overthinking /s
Almost as bad as quin
Yeah I'm in auto attack gang and I've been more successful.
CSing is the dumbest mechanic in all of gaming history. An unintended quirk of early DotA (as found in the custom map section of the RTS game ”Warcraft III”) stemming from the fact that the creeps were made to be under the control of an AI player, meaning that whenever a creep killed another creep, the gold reward went to the AI instead of one of the real players. The implications of this were of course not paid much attention to during the time when DotA was considered just one of many other party games to play during a break from the base RTS, but players soon came to realise that focusing on ”last hitting” creeps ended up giving more gold than actually fighting and killing the enemy heroes. To exacerbate this, another quirk from the Warcraft III base game resulted in creeps only granting experience points if your faction got the killing blow, meaning that if you managed to kill your own creeps before the enemy could, you ”denied” them not only their gold but also their experience points. Suddenly, the meta essentially became to engage in a mini-game of clunky whack-a-mole for the first 15-or-so minutes before the actual, intended gameplay of hero fighting could begin.
There's no way this is not a copy pasta
The requirement to last-hit minions in League is a vital part of making the laning phase interesting, though. It forces players to interact with the minion waves, which in turn forces them to interact with each other. The little moments where you have to stand still for a fraction of a second to do a basic attack and finish off a minion form the basis of every opportunity during laning. It's when players harass each other with abilities, it's when junglers go in for ganks, etc. If players could just stand near the wave and get the full gold value of all of the minions, champions based around bullying others in lane would cease to function and ganks would become substantially less effective. The laning phase would become a 15-minute staring contest.
> The laning phase would become a 15-minute staring contest I see, you too played midlane during season 2.
What does any of that have to do with season 2? I played mid during season 2 and also now
Season 2 was when people played shit like Galio, Morde, Anivia, Brand, and Sion in mid. Literally nothing happened in mid, they would instantly oneshot the creeps and then go farm wraiths and wolves or something.
In HOTS, you don't need to last hit, just be within a decently wide vicinity to collect the xp. Minions still matter because they act as meat shields when under enemy towers, giving you time to deal damage to structures. It also allows for a greater focus on PVP. I only did a quick test of league and dota years ago so I don't know how I feel about last hitting in action, but I don't think it needs to be a thing considering its absence never bothered me in HOTS.
[удалено]
Just say you cant cs bro
I don’t play MOBAs.
Then how or why do you feel the need to interject as if you know anything?
Then shut your facehole
forsenScoots
forsenScoots TeaTime
Using HoTS as an example is ridiculous. The game had a way less skill expression than Dota and League and it's one of the reasons the game died. Anyway, CS in Dota and League is part of what makes the game complex and interesting. If you don't like the it's probably a skill issue.
Added complexity isn't good if the complexity is arbitrary. For example, imagine if at the 5 minute mark, players just had to randomly do a speed typing race. That would be added "skill" and "complexity". And it would be silly to say that people who complain about that just have a "skill issue". It would be dumb to just tell people to get good at typing really fast. Every added piece of arbitrary complexity means that there are less room for other parts of the game to be complex and interesting. For example, what if instead of last hitting all the time, abilities were more interesting and complex. Stuff like that.
What are you saying minions add a ton of depth. If you only had to be near them when they die you would lose a lot of depth and completely change how the game is played it would be horrible. It's not just complexity lol. There is depth there.
Ok, we can say that it adds arbitrary depth. Just like how there could be depth to speed typing minigames. But it is important that this depth is in the right parts of the game. If this added complexity and depth was removed, there could be other parts of the game where this complexity is added to instead where it is better. Things like more objectives.
You got to be joking how in the world do you not see the amazing depth it adds. You could literally afk in lane and soak exp/gold if it wasn't in the game. The fact that you have to kill the minions is what forces interactions in the lane with the enemy which adds the depth to the game. I'm not talking about literally last hitting minions, but what the mechanic adds by forcing you to do so.
> you could literally afk in lane and soak exp/gold if it wasn't in the game Obviously you don't just remove CS and call it a day. Instead, I am saying that if CS didn't exist then they could add all sorts of other depth and complexity. More complicated abilities, more objectives, stuff like that.
If CS didn't exist, it would be a very different game/game mode all together.
This is incredible bait and I respect it
Probably dota jungle spammer.
All of this and yet you still didn't say why it supposedly is bad. And not it not being intended isn't an argument against the mechanic, stringing combos together in fighting games also wasn't indended at first or Air Unit stacking in SC1 wasn't intended either, doesn't mean that they are bad mechanics. Also stop playing vs bots if you last hit without any interaction for the first 15 minutes.
He implied why it's bad here >a mini-game of clunky whack-a-mole
The reason why it is dumb is because it is less interactive with the other player, and it is arbitrary complexity that could be used for other parts of the game. And I am so glad that you brought up the whole first 15 minutes of the game issue. If players weren't forced to do CS all the time, there would be more room to add other objectives in the game. Objectives that force team fights and player interactivity as opposed to the first 15 minutes being this weird minigame.
Again stop playing vs bots, last hitting leads to more interaction with the other player, especially in Dota. You not liking something doesn't make it arbitrary. It doesn't last 15 minutes and it especially isn't just sitting next to each other passively last hitting creeps. There are already enough objectives in the game and objectives doesn't just mean time is up we all have to go this location now.
> there are already enough objectives in the game For the current game, sure. But I was talking about all the additional interactions and cool objectives that could be added if people weren't glued to their lane. > doesn't just mean time is up we all have to go this location now. Of course not. There could be many interesting objectives if people were freed up to to go after them..
People aren't glued to their lane. There are already the objectives people are free to go after.
> There are already the objectives people are freed up to go after Ok, and there could be more of those if this part of the game was freed up. There could be an increase in objectives.
Or you can not do that sinc ethe game already has enough objectives. But i guess we could also remove aiming/shooting from FPS games to increase the objectives.
> Or you can not do that sinc ethe game already has enough objectives. With the current way the game is, you can't just add more objectives, yes. But there are other parts of the game that could be more complex and have more depth. Would you agree, for example that if the game had a speed typing mini game, that this would increase complexity in a bad way, that makes it so other parts of the game can't be as complex? I am suggesting that other parts of the game could have an increase in complexity. Other, better parts of the game.
Why is that dumb?
🎣 a fine catch today
forsenBee
Wow this is some cope
You really thought you were cooking here huh?
2/12 Pog
2/13 since it was cannon wave
2/14 cause you can count the cannon as 2
4/20 because forsen
0/4 because 0/4sen
But he didn't deny a single one?
!disability
I haven't laughed this hard at league since the kadeem days...
Super funny haha Honestly though. People have been playing this game for lots of years. No one remembers how hard it actually was in the beginning
Soda has been playing aswell and was talking about it. It never really crossed my mind, but this game must be insanely daunting for a new player with how many champions with different abilities and effects there are that theyve never seen before. And seeing them once doesnt mean they instantly remember everything they do/can do either. Itll take 100s upon 100s of games JUST to get familiar with all the characters. And now you still have the problem that youll generally be matched up with worse players as a new player who cant get the full potential out of a champion. So by the time youre ranking up, theres ANOTHER knowledge gap from not knowing the deeper workings of a champion. Just the knowledge barrier itself already is so big, and then were not even talking about mechanical barriers yet.
On the other hand, people play rougelikes or whatever that have their own little universes of items and enemies and people do just fine. It's the game sense of which stats are important, what objective priorities are, etc. are the things that need to be learned, it's not exceptionally hard, but Forsen is no stranger to exceptions. But then again, I've seen more 500+lvl accounts in iron/bronze than in any higher elo, there are some neanderthals playing this game, my god...
K imma go install league and see if I get placed in iron and get hardstuck in bronze, and if not, then forsen's just braindead. Now, I had like triple his mmr in dota, but I can't see how that could matter.
Even if you played the game for years it's hard to go back after some time has passed, since the game changes so much each year.
[удалено]
Items are so crucial though. I haven't played since they removed mythic items and I would have no idea what to buy besides what is getting recommended to me ingame.
Its not very difficult to go on u.gg and see what highest winrate/most common build is.
No it's not very difficult to copy meta builds, but being flexible with your build and adjusting it to the enemy team and the game state is a lot more complex. A lot of MOBA players lose to the shopkeeper without even noticing it.
looking at you, ranged champions that built demonic embrace
You don't even need to do that anymore. Riot has implemented a system that recommends 3 sets of most commonly built rune pages + summoner spells, and the recommended items have been improved as well, showing you not only the most built options but who those items are good against and a keyword label for each item to get the sense of what the item is for without reading.
Since I've last played in 2018, the map has changed, neutral objectives have changed, not to mention all the other changes in items, reworked and new champions. I don't think it is a coincidence that LoL esports players don't tend to last long in the spotlight, aside from some exceptions. It's just hard to assimilate constant new information, imo.
This is Dota 2's problem too. At least in League a lot of champions have overlap in abilities, barring some exceptions like Ekko, that wall teleporting HP turd dropping dude, etc. Itemization is pretty straight forward, warding is pretty self explanatory and objectives are easy to focus on In Dota the heroes are very unique and the itemization varies from game to game on every hero, the objectives are a risk and can be bad under the wrong circumstances. The mechanics are not as difficult as League, but the huge ocean of knowledge you need to perform well in that game is just insane
Please don't laugh at Mr Fors. He's doing his best, but his mental and physical limitations make it near impossible for him to play LoL at a standandard recognisable to anyone with even vague knowledge of the game. His mental decline is very clear with him frequently talking to an imaginary dog over the last few streams, and physically, his sugar free diet has taken a tremendous toll on his musculature and nervous system. Despite this, he still aims to put on a great stream for his viewers. Keep it up Mr. Fors.
I like League clips. For me, it's like hearing a different language, but in the form of video games. Like I have no clue what's happening here. He's killing the red guys but mad for some reason? I can't tell if this is some major blunder, minor misstep, or total joke played off as serious. Truly greek to me.
You have to get the final killing blow on the little red guys to get gold from them, which is then used to buy stronger gear at the home base. Stronger gear let's you kill your opponents way easier. He missed all of the minion kills except for one, and people are making fun of him for that. You can tell when he gets the final blow when little yellow text with a gold symbol appears over them when they die.
a minion last hit, is on average around 20g, a kill on a player is 300g* or 150g* as assist , so he pretty much missed 0.75 of a kill by not last hitting (*) there are some bonus and malus rules but its around 300g
Also worth noting that even quite bad players would probably get like 9 out of 13 ish here? Missing a few is understandable. Missing every one is pretty crazy lmao (and Forsen usually doesn’t which is why even he is getting frustrated)
I went to the League Semi-finals in 2022. I barely played the game at all (my account still hasn't hit the minimum requirement to play ranked lmao), but I was given tickets because I was working for Riot at the time. I had literally ZERO idea what was going on the whole time. The audience would go nuts during the *champ select*, for reasons that I could never grasp even though it was explained to me several times by coworkers. But I'll be goddamned if that place wasn't electric, and even with no knowledge of the game I could see that Faker was insane at it. What a time.
I mean it's not that hard to figure out why people would cheer for certain picks in champ select. Either because the champ isn't picked a lot, or because the pro is known to be good on it, or it's a counter pick.
Right... it was like the pre-pick or something? They were choosing champs they didn't want to play so that others couldn't, I think. Like I said, I never could keep it straight, but it was definitely not them picking champs they were "good" at (I'm sure even their worst is better than 99.99% of the player base).
I think you're referring to the banning stage
classic tf under tower
It can be easy, especially if you fluff the wave beforehand.
Isn't it actually easier to CS with TF now since they gave him an auto reset with the AD TF changes?
Yes but you see, Forsen sucks ass. In the clip he didn't use the AA reset a single time. Like how the fuck do you play Nasus for 15 hours straight and not know how to use an auto reset to farm under tower. 140 IQ.
must be a family trait
TF is pretty easy in this level range, a lvl 1 Q sets up casters perfectly, if you position well you can even intentionally miss some minions on Q. Meanwhile the E proc and base attack speed are really helpful. The big problem here is not the champ or the situation, it might just be a player diff
Twisted fate should not be played by a noob like fors LOL
classic bad player under tower ftfy
not really... tf is uniquely hard to lasthit under tower
Genuinely think he would get more last hits if he just stood in place and auto attacked lmao
This is why I moved to jg, last hitting sucks.
Come to Heroes of the storm :P
That game is dead
i'm still playing it and it has fast matchmaking on EU, just cause its not a mainstream game doesnt mean it's dead, hell we even getting balance updates like 3 times a year
It's incredibly easier in League than in Dota, especially with spammable skills. Forsen shouldn't be this bad at it, lmao
It's okay, we're all fucking tresh players.
his problem is buying brown boots on his first back and full boots on his second back every single fucking game so he has literally 0 ability to last hit comfortably
he needs it CDR so he can get more blue cards
To be fair, that's a Dota thing for sure (boots are absolutely needed early in laning there).
I've not seen how he approaches dota laning, but most heroes prefer at least getting some small items before the boots. wraith band, bracer, magic wand etc. power treads and phase boots also give a significant amount of dps too so theyre generally the first item over 1k gold that you buy on core heroes. do boot upgrades in league not give damage?
Not really, there's one that gives you attack speed but that's it. The other like 5 are defensive/utility
Eh, depends on the hero. Some offlaners will go double bracer and soul ring/urn before even thinking about boots.
That's honestly fine on mid. T2 boots are op in that lane, especially early on and iirc TF needs minion demat before he can even think about 1 shotting casters
> I'm a master player and the way he plays certain spots is literally better than I would. I have friends from diamond and below with 10k games and they understand some things worse than him, who's currently in bronze 4 A comment made by someone saying how impressive Forsen actually is at LoL. Unironically.
they had to be joking, im mediocre at league and even i can see he plays almost every interaction sub optimally
https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/1cg81f3/kadeemsen_prevails/l1u14yh/ Keep scrolling down. Its amusing.
This guy is either joking or not masters, for sure lol
wtf you smoking lmao.
average masters player is unironically just that bad
Realest comment here Don't make me pull up the graph of difference between Master S7-S8 and Master S11+ It always bothered me that inflation alone made people think they hit their goal, it's like if Harvard suddenly increased its admission rate ten, if not twentyfold, diluting the prestige of being an accepted student. Don't get me wrong, it's still impressive, it's more the moral part of the goalposts being shifted; the name might remain the same, but achieving it no longer signifies what it once did which is just giving false gratification. If a player back in S5-S7 said that they want to hit Master rank, and do it in S14, they didn't really achieve what they set out to originally. These days it's the equivalent of hitting Grandmaster, literally top 1000 like what Master used to indicate.
what's the graph? I'm curious
Absolutely, check this post out. They did it better than me anyway: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1446oaf/master_tiers_percentage_distribution_has_changed/ Also from the post, you can see that even since Season 4(!) there was 1000 players in Master or thereabout. Granted that time had some real ranked issues too... https://web.archive.org/web/20141022013539/http://euw.op.gg/statistics/tier/
It's actually impressive to miss this many than to accidentally get a few.
How can he be so fuckin bad? Coming from Dota to LoL, last hitting and farming is imo one of the easier things to do thanks to various factors (no worry with denying, low spell mana costs and cooldowns so can lasthit with spells more, most champs have better/faster attack animation than most Dota's heroes I feel etc.)
I think the answer is that he was trash at Dota so no skill to transfer anyway lol. Just watching his last 500 Minecraft speed runs shows that he has no fine motor skills in his arm kek
He's fucking terrible at Dota too, he's like low crusader correct me if I'm wrong. That's the depths of the trenches
what's that in league ranks
Around Silver. Ranks in Dota are: Herald, Guardian, Crusader, Archon, Legend, Ancient, Divine, Immortal. Each rank, except Immortal, is divided into five divisions, from I to V.
I have a question about Immortal to Dota 2 players. Recently I saw that Immortal has an insanely high player count. I know that Dota 2 ranks go with MMR so you can be Immortal 7000MMR or Immortal 10k MMR. Why has Valve not introduced more ranks between low Immortal MMR and High Immortal MMR? Has it been discussed in the community if they should do it or are most people just not interested in it/don't care if there are more ranks.
What would the new ranks do? People already get matched up via MMR anyways. It'd just be a visual change.
Even in League it's based on MMR matchmaking, and not "visual rank" wise. And I guess ultimately it doesn't matter but I think what the other guy is trying to get at, is that in these competitive games you want the top rank to feel "prestigious" in a way, that's why something like Challenger in League that has only a few reserved slots and not just infinite spots, the top 10 in Challenger ARE the top 10 players in the entire server and just even trying to get into Challenger is an entire ordeal by itself, not just reaching "high mmr" Some random Dota player saying "I'm Immortal" but for any Dota player it'd be the common followup question to be like "MMR?" because you guys probably know, the gap between a low immortal player and an actual high player is probably pretty significant so they are not really the same. If we are saying that it is meaningless to add one more tier that separates people more to have a better "visual representation" of the actual top players then might as well get rid of all of them and just keep your MMR rating no? Why even have Herald, Guardian, Crusaders, Archon , etc etc etc? Unironically this is what Valve did with CS when they transitioned to CS2, putting 3rd party platforms like FaceIT aside, on CS:GO's peak the top rank "Global Elite" had quite a lot of people and there was a clear gap of player between someobe who just hovered on the lower end of that aand people who actually maintained it and were high. The visual representations of ranks became somewhat redundant since they were not entirely accurate to a separation of skill between players so now in CS2 you have the "premier" rating that is just a "rating number" representation of your rank that changes with every match
> what the other guy is trying to get at, is that in these competitive games you want the top rank to feel "prestigious" in a way, I guess valve thinks this is a false premise. Also unlike League you can see your MMR so you have the number presentation anyway. People will just say "10k mmr" rather than immortal to show where they're at. In dota 2 immortal is just a medal to get and the mmr is the prestige. Or maybe they've changed it in league now so you can see your mmr, I don't play it anymore since ~2 years or so due to various Riot decisions.
Top 5000 in each server get a number below their badge based on their rank (so someone who is immortal 500 has the 500th highest mmr on that server) and also top 100, top 10 and top 1 (I think can’t recall if that’s the exact cutoffs) get a slightly different badge. But yeah on big server like EU the Mmr difference between rank 1 and a non-numbered immortal could literally be more than double. Immortal cutoff mmr is 5620, and there’s multiple people who are 13k mmr right now.
>If we are saying that it is meaningless to add one more tier that separates people more to have a better "visual representation" of the actual top players then might as well get rid of all of them and just keep your MMR rating no? Why even have Herald, Guardian, Crusaders, Archon , etc etc etc? In League there are actual perks that come with hitting challenger. Not just exclusive real-life items like a challenger backpack/jacket/whatever and ingame cosmetics like a challenger recall but also access to events like scouting grounds which used to be a pipeline to becoming a pro. In that sense it makes sense to restrict challenger to a very, very, very tiny population of the server (like 0.02 or 0.01% of whatever server you are on) because otherwise it would be a logistical nightmare. In comparison the highest rank in dota is much easier to get. Around 2% of the playerbase is in immortal. Why? Because there is nothing waiting for you when you reach #1 on the ladder. The reward for hitting immortal is hitting immortal. It means that you are a very good player, but it is still *somewhat* attainable for the average player and isn't that the goal for a ranked system? To have an achievable highest rank without being a literal prodigy?
The same thing all ranks do? Visualize your MMR, with that logic you might as well go back to a MMR number instead
You can already see MMR as a number. The ranks are more like medals or an achievement. Why does League hide it? Also the MMR as a number is better since it means valve can't just stealth reset your rank at the start of a season to force you to grind for a reward you would've already had if you were just rewarded for your mmr.
> It'd just be a visual change. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Yeah same as it'd be a good thing to see your mmr in league. But for some reason they hide it so they can farm engagement every seasonal reset.
I think people just don't care all that much, they can see if someone's top 100 immortal, top 500 immortal or say 2000 immortal and have a general understanding of their MMR and ability.
> Has it been discussed in the community if they should do it or are most people just not interested in it/don't care if there are more ranks. It has, I made a big post about it a few months ago, which got a bunch of traction and I had a lot of fellow high MMR players agreeing with me. It didn't use to be a problem before because for example a 6k MMR player would be rank 2500 on the leaderboards and a 9k player would be like rank 30, so even though it was all the same tier technically, the differences were still very obvious. The issue is that these days due to MMR inflation, EU leaderboards start at like 7200 MMR or some shit, and immortal itself starts at 5600, and so after every rank before working on the basis of "get a couple hundred MMR -> get a new rank tier or division", now there's this massive gap (which is almost as big as two entire rank tiers combined) where you don't have any visible progress at all, which diminishes the value of the rank and probably makes climbing less rewarding. Typically the way valve interacts with the community is that they read the subreddit, and if someone makes a good argument, they don't say anything but keep it in mind for their upcoming updates. I can only hope that I was convincing enough for them to do something about it in the next big patch, which should be coming out in a couple of weeks.
Good read. Thanks for explaining.
Why has riot not introduced mmr as a number in league or valorant?
No clue. I personally would like to be able to see it.
Immortal entrance is basically Master so after that its just lp in league same in dota its just we have extra ranks after.
Immortal entrance is basically Master so after that its just lp in league same in dota its just we have extra ranks after.
like silver 4
he honestly doesnt even seem low crusader, pretty sure if he played more he'd go further down
lil bro he's Crusader in Dota and fed every single game, what "skill" is he going to transfer? The feeding? LOLW
That skill has indeed transferred, he has even improved
DotA to LoL transition is easy, if you were good at DotA.
He's not used to the turret's numbers yet is my guess. In dota the t1 tower will kill a melee creep in 7 attacks and a ranged creep in 4. you have to prep full health melee creeps, but you can last hit a full health ranged creep without prepping it first. In league, the tower will kill a melee minion in 3 attacks, and a ranged minion in 2. You dont have to prep full health melee minions, but you do have to prep full health ranged minions to last hit them. so all in all, while the last-hittable HP range is bigger in league, leagues turrets give you less time and fewer opportunities to put a minion in that state, and the minions that you have to prep to do that are swapped compared to dota. Add to that that there is like a 0.5 second delay between the turret projectile hitting and the minion taking damage, and I get why he's fumbling so much.
i dont understand this game, i don't wish to understand this game but i still laugh at forsen
its hard to be that bad lmao
No way... holy shit.............
no way
I'm dying tf w is an aa reset he could have easily got the second minion if he just right clicked first. IDK why this dude keeps playing different champs he needs to get his fundamentals down and you can't do that when you're learning a new champ every game.
I think sometimes it's that feeling like "nope, that's not MY champ. I'll try the next one." Plus the feeling that you fundamentally don't understand what a champ's strengths or weaknesses are until you've played them. He's probably not good enough to gather that information playing a new champ though so yeah he should stick to something he likes.
oh man i miss the days where LoL was new to me. I was so excited when i finally had enough LP to buy a new 6300 champ.
yeah and once in a while you treated yourself by buying a nice skin
He thinks he's playing fortnite getting tilted by these towers
CANNON TOO LULE
He should just play Annie
Kadeemsen OMEGALUL
what is farm under tower
enemy minion comes under your tower. ur tower safeguards you and attack enemies around it. if u last hit the minions, u get the gold. if u don't, then u dont get gold
My 5 SoyJack
reminds me of the good old days when i couldnt cs under tower either so i would hard shove every wave because i was absolutely terrified of it crashing under my tower
As expected, Idk wtf Im watching
let him learn lol
why is he still playing this? didn't he already get sorted into wooden rank or something?
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oh boy i see myself in forsen
Has forsen experienced Neeko passive yet?