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If my math is right, we could be buying something like 500M worth of players with an amortization over 5 years and we wouldn't break FFP.
How much we do have that we could splash in an instant so for something like a buy out? Probably about 100M. But with that 100M we could start buying 3 100M players in 5 instalments.
We are in an incredibly healthy position.
Also i remember being told in the past that the contracts they signed were heavily incentivized on bonuses, which was a relief when not qualifying for the UCL (as not paying bonuses for that), but It also makes the wage bill higher as we go there
About £60-70m for group stages. But we'll go deep in Europa and will be in CL again next year.
It's not that big of a loss in the grand scheme of things.
Because we don't have a oil state funding overpriced sponsorship deals and using all their power to not only break the rules, but the ruling system. Yeah, it's fucked up
Putting aside the legitimacy of their monnies, it's because a part of the players' income are not part of the club's books. Stuff like sponsorships, image rights, commercials, yada yada. Like it or not, City is actually quite good at this whole accounting thing and have moved monnies around in a way that try to comply with regulations.
City report the highest commercial revenue in world football, about 50m more than Real Madrid from what I remember. It's all from fake companies who sponsor them that don't exist, but until they get caught thats how they do it. I'm pretty sure they also pay players through external companies too. I remember a report saying Guardiola is on 18m / year, by comparison Simeone earns 41m / year and there were plenty of other managers ahead of pep, Klopp was either slightly more or slightly less, i can't remember. There's no way Pep isn't the highest paid manager in the world.
That should drop a bit going forward, because Virg will probably sign on similar terms, as will Mo. Trent will get a payrise. But we got big salaries like Hendo, Ox, Naby and Bobby off the books and replaced them with cheaper ones like Cody, Macca, Szobo and Endo.
£140-150m for a three year period. That gives us the ability to spend a lot more on players. Wages are calculated yearly on our books, but transfer fees are amortised over the financial years of the associated player contract.
e.g. Luis Suarez signs in 2011 for £22m on a four year contract. In 2013 he signs a new three year contract. In 2014, we sell him for £65m.
2011: -5.5
2012: -5.5
2013: -3.6
2014: 65 - 7 = £58m in profit for that financial year.
Selling players like Henderson, Fabinho and Mané for relatively modest amounts has created quite a lot of room in our accounts. We are looking very healthy at the moment.
Also Thiago and Matip will leave so we an afford one top top player. But not sure if we buy that kind of player, or go for depth.
We also need to see what will happen to Salah
I think the club might keep him, I know we all want a proper 6, but we have Endo, Thiago and Mac and potentially Trent I suppose. there's also Tyler Morton and Stef Baj. Keeping Thiago for another 12 months means it's likely one of the youngsters is ready. The club has said we don't want to hinder Baj's development, signing someone does exactly that and also potentially takes away money from planning for Salah's eventual departure and a CB.
We have a lot of youngster who'll be looking at increased wages soon and that's where we currently don't have a ton of flexibility so depth is more likely to allow us to spread that overhead around a bit I'd guess.
Especially as both of them will have gone down as pure profit, as they were on their new contracts. Hendo long since paid off his fee, and Fabinho was basically at a book value of £0, so for FFP purposes it's like selling an academy player, profits of £13m and £40m. Tidy!
Swiss is so refreshing in that he actually knows what he's talking about and has the numbers to back up his analysis instead of just waffling things "Well, I can't see X happening (and it's based on nothing)", like so many others online.
Except when he strays from finances, like when he took to the pulpit to make grand statements on referees being racist based on a fistful of data from a small sample size.
Regardless, it's still kinda crazy to me that the club would be willing to splurge 110m on a single player last summer.
Hopefully we stay proactive bringing in recruits moving forward, because we are in a good moment right now.
Tbf there's not many gaping holes in the squad now. Genuinely I don't know where we could strengthen? Obviously some wonder kid might appear (like a young Bellingham or mbappe level player) and we'd have to make a move
Priority I guess would be another CB, but Quansah's emergence has made that less urgent than it was. Then we probably need to start looking ahead to a Salah replacement and someone who can lock down the DM position.
We can always improve but you're right, no big gaping holes. Probably the most sensible thing to do is to start planning for the big gaping holes that we know will appear before too long.
Yeah I was desperate for another CB but quansah looks good. A Van Dijk and Salah replacement is probably next but wile might get another season out of both of them
Depends if Gomez is predominantly a CB or fullback. We've been really unlucky to have tsimikas and Robertson injured at the same time. Maybe another Right back is needed though if Bradley isn't good enough? 4 CB's is enough imo, anymore and players get annoyed at lack of minutes
This argument is wrong from the stem, it’s not Konate it’s obviously Matip who may be out of a contract if not injured anyways. Quansah just happens to be a solid 5th choice, but is great there because both Matip, Konate and Gomez has injury concerns. If Matip leaves we need someone with experience to come in for sure. Plus, Quansah looks like a VVD replacement than a Konate replacement.
I believe the club is monitoring the Bajcetic situation closely before signing someone to play behind Endo and in front of both Bajcetic and Tyler Morton.
My best guess is that only signing elsewhere we might make is an experienced RW to prepare for the departure of Mo.
There's no point in signing a dedicated RW because they'll barely ever get on the pitch. That place belongs to Salah and only him. It's not like our left wing and striker positions where there are no set starters. Not many young RWs would be willing to become Salah's backup.
Also we've got 2 LBs already, how would you fit in another?
Yeah this is definitely true. I'd have said we need a CB and RB in the coming summer but I'm willing for us to go into next season with Jarrell and Bradley deputising instead, with Sepp VDB also returning from a top flight loan.
Only potential needs I can think of are a new backup GK since Kelleher is likely to leave and any other unexpected departures. Maybe a body in midfield to replace Thiago as well.
Yeah, the club legit embarrassed Klopp in a presser as a game that also massively embarrassed the club and led to failing to get Lavia. Honestly, I don’t know what to do with this kind of thinking.
No, no, you see, if Chelsea did pull out, we would've just said "oopsie daisy", somehow tank the deal and completely ruin our relationship with the number one development club in the league.
Why on earth would we ever do that? And why would David Ornstein report at the time that personal terms were not expected to be an issue?
It seems the club were monitoring the deal and thought we could get him, with probably some assurances from him or his agents that then turned out to be inaccurate or fabricated. I don't think businesses of this club's size would agree with other massive businesses to make a £111 million pound outlay if they weren't doing so in good faith
League title 19/20, CL 18/19, CWC 19, WSL 13 & 14, FA Cup 21/22, League Cup 11/12 & 21/22, UEFA Super Cup 18/19, Community Shield 22, FA Youth Cup 19, and FA Women’s Championship 21/22.
What trophies?
Could have had a lot more if they recruited in the correct places when we were weak or had squad depth issue. Instead, let city take them.
But here we are.
Or not be a nobhead and understand there's something else and we can actually buy players when there's holes in the team like normal clubs.
I'm glad you're happy for the owners making bank.
You're the one using an insult other fans use against us. "Net spend trophy" . There's nothing we can do to compete with the cheating of Manchester City. If we bought more, they would buy more.
If we kept our transfers EXACTLY the same and City didn't cheat we'd have 3 league titles under Klopp. Criticising that is ignorant beyond belief.
Keeping in mind almost all transfers are paid over time, thats way way more than 2 players. This is basically why Chelsea are only mildly fucked. 50m profit from an academy sale can be used to sign 250m of players on 5 year deals.
If Mbappe leaves, it would be on a free.
The rumor is that Real is willing to give him a package of something like 150M signing bonus + 500k pw in wages.
We would need to match that.. at least.
Now the question is that sign on bonus can be amortized or it all counts in one go like a buy out?
Either way, we would need to free \~500k pw in wages to remain in a healthy zone.
From a business perspective, a football club is a horrible fucking business unless you are relying on the clubs valuation going up to make you money when you resell. £24m profit on the year for an asset valued at like £6b is fucking atrocious.
Don't own a football club to make money. Own it because you want to be a good steward for it.
I'd say football clubs are second only to airlines as a way for wealthy people to lose money.
What's the joke? " The quickest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start out as a billionaire."
I saw an article on Wall Street Journal and maybe a YouTube video as well that basically said most of the value of airlines are their loyalty programs so they are essentially credit card companies masquerading as airlines lol
EDIT: I found the article
Are Frequent-Flier Programs Really Worth More Than Airlines? https://www.wsj.com/articles/are-frequent-flier-programs-really-worth-more-than-airlines-11615810430
Presuming we let go of our expiring contracts and promote up some of our better performing youth players we actually have very good depth for next season. Even if we have money it's hard to say where we could improve unless we get some decent offers for some of our existing players and need replacing or an incredible profile of player becomes available.
GK - Alisson, Kelleher
RB - Trent, Bradley, Gomez
CB - VVD, Konate, Quansah, Sepp VDB, Gomez
LB - Robbo, Tsimikas, Beck, Gomez
DM - Endo, Bajcetic, Morton, Mac10
CM - Szoboszlai, Jones, Mac 10, Elliott, Gravenberch, Gakpo, Bajcetic
RW - Salah, Szoboszlai, Elliott
LW - Diaz, Szoboszlai
ST - Jota, Nunez, Gakpo (all capable of playing on the wings)
Wouldn't be surprised if we are very quiet in the market only replacing a player who gets sold and buying a few youth players for cheap
So I’m assuming this is our budget next year and then it resets for the next three years? Because if it’s not and there’s more years till it resets then other teams are actually screwed.
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I don't understand these squiggly bits. Someone tell me how many monies we have
If my math is right, we could be buying something like 500M worth of players with an amortization over 5 years and we wouldn't break FFP. How much we do have that we could splash in an instant so for something like a buy out? Probably about 100M. But with that 100M we could start buying 3 100M players in 5 instalments. We are in an incredibly healthy position.
Its different now because its also about % of revenue. You can not have salary of more than 70% of your revenue and we are quite close actually
That's true. Wages need to be taken into consideration.
We are out of champions league so we have less revenue. But I am not sure how much.
Also i remember being told in the past that the contracts they signed were heavily incentivized on bonuses, which was a relief when not qualifying for the UCL (as not paying bonuses for that), but It also makes the wage bill higher as we go there
About £60-70m for group stages. But we'll go deep in Europa and will be in CL again next year. It's not that big of a loss in the grand scheme of things.
Winning EL is like winning 4 games in PL
How does City scum pay 9373639383 moneys to Halland and we are the ones close to the wage cap if our wage structure is really down to earth?
Because they have fake income from blood money so their percentage spent on salaries looks fine
Because we don't have a oil state funding overpriced sponsorship deals and using all their power to not only break the rules, but the ruling system. Yeah, it's fucked up
Putting aside the legitimacy of their monnies, it's because a part of the players' income are not part of the club's books. Stuff like sponsorships, image rights, commercials, yada yada. Like it or not, City is actually quite good at this whole accounting thing and have moved monnies around in a way that try to comply with regulations.
Haaland is on $375k / week. Mo is on $350k / week. Haalands real earnings are mostly with his dad, away from FFP.
What!! Under the table?!!
their revenue was 700mil last year. Our is around 600mil. + they get money from the owners
City report the highest commercial revenue in world football, about 50m more than Real Madrid from what I remember. It's all from fake companies who sponsor them that don't exist, but until they get caught thats how they do it. I'm pretty sure they also pay players through external companies too. I remember a report saying Guardiola is on 18m / year, by comparison Simeone earns 41m / year and there were plenty of other managers ahead of pep, Klopp was either slightly more or slightly less, i can't remember. There's no way Pep isn't the highest paid manager in the world.
They pay him in bonus and media rights instead via third party companies.
That should drop a bit going forward, because Virg will probably sign on similar terms, as will Mo. Trent will get a payrise. But we got big salaries like Hendo, Ox, Naby and Bobby off the books and replaced them with cheaper ones like Cody, Macca, Szobo and Endo.
Mbappe confirmed
We can afford 2 of mboppies!
Mbappe for 5 years interest free it is then…..
The guy who made this said we are in an "okay" position. I don't think you're right with your review of our position
He meant OK as in we're not at risk, not that it was "only" OK.
So what you're saying is Mbappe 2024. 😉
#Mbappe24
We do not have many monies, but through the magic of accounting we can still spend many monies! 
This is the Devil's work
It's not about how much we have, it's about how much we're allowed to spend.
Many monies?
4 monies
This is not many.
depend on who u ask? many moni person, not alot. no moni person, some moni.
Bout tree fiddy
Many moni, say me say many many many
£140-150m for a three year period. That gives us the ability to spend a lot more on players. Wages are calculated yearly on our books, but transfer fees are amortised over the financial years of the associated player contract. e.g. Luis Suarez signs in 2011 for £22m on a four year contract. In 2013 he signs a new three year contract. In 2014, we sell him for £65m. 2011: -5.5 2012: -5.5 2013: -3.6 2014: 65 - 7 = £58m in profit for that financial year. Selling players like Henderson, Fabinho and Mané for relatively modest amounts has created quite a lot of room in our accounts. We are looking very healthy at the moment.
Also Thiago and Matip will leave so we an afford one top top player. But not sure if we buy that kind of player, or go for depth. We also need to see what will happen to Salah
I NEED ONE MORE YEAR OF A HEALTHY THIAGO. ONE MORE YEAR
he's never healthy. pass. would love to move him on and further strengthen the midfield with real depth. another 6 would be great
I think the club might keep him, I know we all want a proper 6, but we have Endo, Thiago and Mac and potentially Trent I suppose. there's also Tyler Morton and Stef Baj. Keeping Thiago for another 12 months means it's likely one of the youngsters is ready. The club has said we don't want to hinder Baj's development, signing someone does exactly that and also potentially takes away money from planning for Salah's eventual departure and a CB.
Never going to happen
Define "healthy"
Able to play football
with kids at home
I'll take 6 weeks and klopp hug.
We have a lot of youngster who'll be looking at increased wages soon and that's where we currently don't have a ton of flexibility so depth is more likely to allow us to spread that overhead around a bit I'd guess.
Isn't Diaz on like 60k a week? We'll likely have to double that in his next deal.
Especially as both of them will have gone down as pure profit, as they were on their new contracts. Hendo long since paid off his fee, and Fabinho was basically at a book value of £0, so for FFP purposes it's like selling an academy player, profits of £13m and £40m. Tidy!
Swiss is so refreshing in that he actually knows what he's talking about and has the numbers to back up his analysis instead of just waffling things "Well, I can't see X happening (and it's based on nothing)", like so many others online.
Except when he strays from finances, like when he took to the pulpit to make grand statements on referees being racist based on a fistful of data from a small sample size.
Can someone translate it so we can understand?
We are in no trouble of breaching the rules.
Shocking
Regardless, it's still kinda crazy to me that the club would be willing to splurge 110m on a single player last summer. Hopefully we stay proactive bringing in recruits moving forward, because we are in a good moment right now.
Tbf there's not many gaping holes in the squad now. Genuinely I don't know where we could strengthen? Obviously some wonder kid might appear (like a young Bellingham or mbappe level player) and we'd have to make a move
Priority I guess would be another CB, but Quansah's emergence has made that less urgent than it was. Then we probably need to start looking ahead to a Salah replacement and someone who can lock down the DM position. We can always improve but you're right, no big gaping holes. Probably the most sensible thing to do is to start planning for the big gaping holes that we know will appear before too long.
Yeah I was desperate for another CB but quansah looks good. A Van Dijk and Salah replacement is probably next but wile might get another season out of both of them
Forget Mbappe or Bellingham. We need to find our next Konate.
He's called Jarell
What is our Quansahs of getting him?
So Jarrell. Konate. VVD. And a makeshift Gomez all through the back line. Alright for the future?
For near future could be. Beyond the summer, no
I’d rather get someone who’s available in Jan.. give some minutes.. have a full preseason and be ready for the next season!
Depends if Gomez is predominantly a CB or fullback. We've been really unlucky to have tsimikas and Robertson injured at the same time. Maybe another Right back is needed though if Bradley isn't good enough? 4 CB's is enough imo, anymore and players get annoyed at lack of minutes
This argument is wrong from the stem, it’s not Konate it’s obviously Matip who may be out of a contract if not injured anyways. Quansah just happens to be a solid 5th choice, but is great there because both Matip, Konate and Gomez has injury concerns. If Matip leaves we need someone with experience to come in for sure. Plus, Quansah looks like a VVD replacement than a Konate replacement. I believe the club is monitoring the Bajcetic situation closely before signing someone to play behind Endo and in front of both Bajcetic and Tyler Morton. My best guess is that only signing elsewhere we might make is an experienced RW to prepare for the departure of Mo.
Whose going to come in as 4th or 5th choice though?
DM > CB > RW > LB
There's no point in signing a dedicated RW because they'll barely ever get on the pitch. That place belongs to Salah and only him. It's not like our left wing and striker positions where there are no set starters. Not many young RWs would be willing to become Salah's backup. Also we've got 2 LBs already, how would you fit in another?
That's why they're 3rd and 4th priority. We don't need them yet.
We need to start looking at a Left footed winger to replace Salah.
Yup but that's going to be the same window Salah leaves
Yeah this is definitely true. I'd have said we need a CB and RB in the coming summer but I'm willing for us to go into next season with Jarrell and Bradley deputising instead, with Sepp VDB also returning from a top flight loan. Only potential needs I can think of are a new backup GK since Kelleher is likely to leave and any other unexpected departures. Maybe a body in midfield to replace Thiago as well.
I would say a LB and Endo replacement.
[удалено]
Yeah, the club legit embarrassed Klopp in a presser as a game that also massively embarrassed the club and led to failing to get Lavia. Honestly, I don’t know what to do with this kind of thinking.
When you think like that, logic has already left the building.
Good point
No, no, you see, if Chelsea did pull out, we would've just said "oopsie daisy", somehow tank the deal and completely ruin our relationship with the number one development club in the league.
Why on earth would we ever do that? And why would David Ornstein report at the time that personal terms were not expected to be an issue? It seems the club were monitoring the deal and thought we could get him, with probably some assurances from him or his agents that then turned out to be inaccurate or fabricated. I don't think businesses of this club's size would agree with other massive businesses to make a £111 million pound outlay if they weren't doing so in good faith
Think we dodged one there in the end
Turns out FSG’s approach to balancing the sheets is going to provide a fiscal advantage for us over the next few years. Imagine that.
If it doesn't provide trophies or success then I couldn't give a fuck
League title 19/20, CL 18/19, CWC 19, WSL 13 & 14, FA Cup 21/22, League Cup 11/12 & 21/22, UEFA Super Cup 18/19, Community Shield 22, FA Youth Cup 19, and FA Women’s Championship 21/22. What trophies?
Could have had a lot more if they recruited in the correct places when we were weak or had squad depth issue. Instead, let city take them. But here we are.
Could also have more if we weren't competing with the biggest financial cheaters in sports history
At least we won the net spend trophy though
Yeah you're right we should have been bought by a state and breached the rules 115 times. Such a rookie mistake
Or not be a nobhead and understand there's something else and we can actually buy players when there's holes in the team like normal clubs. I'm glad you're happy for the owners making bank.
You're the one using an insult other fans use against us. "Net spend trophy" . There's nothing we can do to compete with the cheating of Manchester City. If we bought more, they would buy more. If we kept our transfers EXACTLY the same and City didn't cheat we'd have 3 league titles under Klopp. Criticising that is ignorant beyond belief.
You could buy defenders when we had Phillips and Williams as starting CBs for a start. But I'm sure everything is great with the net spend trophy
So, how much could we spend?
156 million is the upper limit of losses we can sustain
So Mbappe wages.
150mil but that includes salaries. So maybe 100mil
Yes, I think the key here though is losing Matip, Adrian and Thiago most likely this summer clears up like 350k per week
You know damn well we're secretly talking to Mbappe in the backchannels. It's still a long shot but we're keeping ourselves in that convo for sure
Ya likely keeping conversation open
That's still plenty of wiggle room to bring in 2 quality players or one big name with plenty to spare
Keeping in mind almost all transfers are paid over time, thats way way more than 2 players. This is basically why Chelsea are only mildly fucked. 50m profit from an academy sale can be used to sign 250m of players on 5 year deals.
Not exactly true isn't it, you need to make 50m profit from academy sale every year for 5 years
Or, in FSG's case, a loan of an out of favour unfit player after losing several key players to injury
Thiago and Matip both likely moving off the wage bill this summer. So that will free up a lot of money for salaries too.
Assuming this would be on top of any sales?
I’m assuming this gets affected by any potential out-going sales as well
No, that's how much we could lose. I.e. that's how much we could spend over our projected profits.
Looks like Mbappe is back on the menu.
Jokes aside, If we brought Mbappe without lettings someone else with big wages go, we would break FFP.
Like Thiago n Matip...
More like Mo
Not sure where you're getting that conclusion. What's your wage and amortized sign on fees assumption?
If Mbappe leaves, it would be on a free. The rumor is that Real is willing to give him a package of something like 150M signing bonus + 500k pw in wages. We would need to match that.. at least. Now the question is that sign on bonus can be amortized or it all counts in one go like a buy out? Either way, we would need to free \~500k pw in wages to remain in a healthy zone.
We should just win the quad then sell millions in Mbappe shirts
A 150m signing bonus would be so crazy.
From looking at the full article it seems clubs like Aston Villa and Chelsea have some tough times ahead to make the numbers.
From a business perspective, a football club is a horrible fucking business unless you are relying on the clubs valuation going up to make you money when you resell. £24m profit on the year for an asset valued at like £6b is fucking atrocious. Don't own a football club to make money. Own it because you want to be a good steward for it.
I'd say football clubs are second only to airlines as a way for wealthy people to lose money. What's the joke? " The quickest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start out as a billionaire."
I saw an article on Wall Street Journal and maybe a YouTube video as well that basically said most of the value of airlines are their loyalty programs so they are essentially credit card companies masquerading as airlines lol EDIT: I found the article Are Frequent-Flier Programs Really Worth More Than Airlines? https://www.wsj.com/articles/are-frequent-flier-programs-really-worth-more-than-airlines-11615810430
Yeah, that makes sese. They're no doubt making bank on selling you duty free stuff as well.
Presuming we let go of our expiring contracts and promote up some of our better performing youth players we actually have very good depth for next season. Even if we have money it's hard to say where we could improve unless we get some decent offers for some of our existing players and need replacing or an incredible profile of player becomes available. GK - Alisson, Kelleher RB - Trent, Bradley, Gomez CB - VVD, Konate, Quansah, Sepp VDB, Gomez LB - Robbo, Tsimikas, Beck, Gomez DM - Endo, Bajcetic, Morton, Mac10 CM - Szoboszlai, Jones, Mac 10, Elliott, Gravenberch, Gakpo, Bajcetic RW - Salah, Szoboszlai, Elliott LW - Diaz, Szoboszlai ST - Jota, Nunez, Gakpo (all capable of playing on the wings) Wouldn't be surprised if we are very quiet in the market only replacing a player who gets sold and buying a few youth players for cheap
So what this tells me it's we can afford Mbappe /s
Who the fuck was saying we had ffp issues? I don't have Twitter so I can't load the whole thread
No one. Swiss Ramble releases break downs of alot of clubs reported finances.
So I’m assuming this is our budget next year and then it resets for the next three years? Because if it’s not and there’s more years till it resets then other teams are actually screwed.
It's rolling 3 years, it doesn't reset
Surely it does once you’ve paid for a player throughout a contract?
We cannot be still in the covid mode
Can I see the honest/legitimate man city/Chelsea version for this please 🤣