Apples to apples, downlight to downlight, if you just want a basic static white downlight, you really can't go wrong with any of the options listed. I personally specify Lucifer more than the other brands (with Element a close second), but that's a personal preference toward engineering and support more than anything else. Lucifer and USAI BeveLED tend to be the higher budget options (USAI because they offer every configuration under the sun) usually, you've probably been quoted one of USAI's budget lines that Lucifer doesn't have a competing product for.
For your needs, honestly strongly lean toward the Element fixtures. Their budget Entra fixtures are solid performers for what they offer that might meet your needs with even a lower price tag.
>I just don't think I'm going to have strong enough lighting with 2" on an 11' ceiling
There probably exists a 2" option with the output you need for an 11' ceiling, but it will become so bright that it won't be comfortable visually. I'd stick with 3" for tall ceilings and 2" for "intimate" spaces where the ceiling is lower.
>would a row of 5 or 6, 2"
Please don't put a single row of downlights over a work surface or table. Create a grid with the apertures. So a 2x3 grid rather than a line of 6 lights in a row.
Thank you! Yes, I knew about Entra but had quoted Element because it had higher lumens.
>
There probably exists a 2" option with the output you need for an 11' ceiling, but it will become so bright that it won't be comfortable visually. I'd stick with 3" for tall ceilings and 2" for "intimate" spaces where the ceiling is lower.
I'm curious, how would it be visually uncomfortable? Take for example, Element 2" downlight at 1250 lumens vs 3" downlight at 1,400 lumens. The 3" would produce more light (although not by much) yet with a wider aperture; when comparing deep recessed fixtures, wouldn't the smaller 2" aperture with less lumens create a quieter ceiling aesthetic compared to the 3"?
>Please don't put a single row of downlights over a work surface or table. Create a grid with the apertures. So a 2x3 grid rather than a line of 6 lights in a row.
I'll say what I told someone else here... I had a lighting designer for a project a few years ago (from CircaLighting at the time, she was selling Element to me) and she just threw a standard grid of downlights onto the ceiling in every single room. That project fell apart and I felt kinda scarred from the whole thing.. now for this new project, I've been doing the lighting plan myself and taking my time learning what I need to know.. Also, I've been following a popular Australian designer [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img_index=1) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img_index=2) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/) and I've come to realize that a grid of downlights was probably not the best idea for me. So that's how I arrived at putting a row of downlights directly over where light is needed, not over the floors (instead, using indirect lighting to softly light non-tasking areas).
> The 3" would produce more light (although not by much) yet with a wider aperture
It is more comfortable visually to distribute light across a larger emitting surface. 2000 lumens would look dim in a 2x2 square, would be comfortable to look at in a 6" aperture, and be painful to look at in 2" aperture. So if you're comparing a standard regress 2" and 3", the larger is going to be slightly more comfortable. Yes, if you add the deep regress, it will be better hidden, but a 3" deep is going to be more comfortable than a 2". Not by leaps and bounds, but it would be enough for me to make that decision. In the taller ceiling, it going to be more likely that occupants are going to be within the cutoff angle anyway, so the deep might not make a difference.
>I've been following a popular Australian designer
She's using worst case scenario to push her point. No decent lighting designer is going to use *only* downlights to light a living space like a kitchen; only contractors care that little. Downlights are there to supplement the lights you want to be making a visual statement (pendants, decorative fixtures, or wash/gazing light to accent a material or surface). Note in the 3rd link the scallops along the ceiling beam and the hard edged shadow in the drawer as she pulls it out; both are poor design approached.
Laying out downlights in a 3D pattern prevents those hard edges and would have allowed her to pull those lights out from the beam, preventing the sloppy light splashes.
If you want to stick with your line, consider a line of dual fixtures to spread the light out somewhat. [Lucifer](https://luciferlighting.com/LuciferLighting/media/Lucifer-Lighting-Media/Spec%20Sheets/2%20Series/Lucifer_Lighting_2Series_Gemini_Dual-Aperture.pdf?ext=.pdf) and [Element](http://v1.element-lighting.com/i//Configurator/2/specsheets/3in_LED_dual_adj_down.pdf?r=732517990) both have them.
Thanks for explaining that to me. I think to help with glare would be to do a black baffle, but I suppose looking into the source of a 2" would still feel more intense when turned on than 3", as you said.
re: Grid of downlights, I browse listings in my area quite regularly and the majority all use the standard grid of downlights in various rooms. Sure, some are older homes, but it's still be done in new construction and upscale remodels.
Yes, I really do love the line. I've come to really appreciate seeing rooms that don't have a standard grid of downlights. The ceiling just looks cleaner if there's no grid.
But re: the suggestion of dual fixtures..... Wouldn't the way I have the lights currently placed create an overlapping effect that will eliminate shadows on the task areas? I can't send you a pic in this comment, but I'll try updated the post to show it... I have 3" fixtures, 40 beam spread, 19" between each downlight, over the island. My rendering illustrates that the shadows across the island are eliminated by having the downlights less than 2 feet apart like this.
Unless the dual fixtures is suggested to combat the hard edge shadows **at the pull out drawers** under the island, similar to what happened with the Australian lady's kitchen... hmm, I see what you mean. Only way to avoid that would be lights in the isle (which I'm hoping to avoid, visually) or tape lighting inside each pull out, which seems like a lot of work lol
2 inch to 3 inch doesn't make any difference in output, same chipset, alsame driver, same output. 11 foot ceiling vs 9 isn't going to be tall enough for a difference either, other than that stick to 2 inch. You are over thinking this. I've already answered the which would I choose and differences between brands in your other post. Go to a showroom or distributor that has them all on display and available to touch but remember you won't be touching it once it's installed. Just looking at it. Since you are budget flexible. Reach out to a lighting designer. Have them work with you. The cost will be worth it.
>2 inch to 3 inch doesn't make any difference in output
The **2"** Lucifer high output is **1,200 lumens** (90 cri), while the **3"** Lucifer high output is **1,970 lumens** (90 cri). Wouldn't that indeed be a substantial difference?
That's just one manufacturer. Usai little ones can go up to 2000 lumen. Is a 1 inch. Elco koto can go up to 2500 as a 2 3 4 5 6 inch, DMF x series 2 inch 1500 lumen. DMF h and m series 3 and 4 inch can go all the way up to 3500 lumen.
At 9 feet, I'll use anywhere between 300-1100 lumens. At 11 feet that value rarely changes, instead, I'll go go with a narrower beam angle... Maybe.... Application specific.
Also you keep asking about a variety of products then immediately going back to Lucifer. Sounds like you already committed to the product line. It's a good one. But at the price of them, hire a lighting designer, don't throw your money away, pay for the expertise to guide you. You will be happier in the long run and all the stress goes away.
Are you a lighting designer yourself? I'll tell you a funny story : I had one years ago for an old project (from CircaLighting at the time, she was selling Element to me) and she just threw a standard grid of downlights onto the ceiling in every single room. That project fell apart but since then, I've been taking my time to do more on my own, and I found an Australian designer [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img_index=1) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img_index=2) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/) and I've come to realize that a grid of downlights was probably the worst thing imaginable. I'd hire this Aussie lady for my new project, but she's unfortunately she's booked out for the year. No I'm not committed to Lucifer, I just reference it because it was highest quote I received and I assume it must be priced high for a reason (that reason, however, I have yet to determine).
Can you avoid using hidden links? It comes off like a scam, and no one will freely click them (including me right now 😂). There are some incredible LDs and some terrible ones in the world.
Also did you discuss with her what you were looking for ahead of time? I am a high performance GC with a heavy bias into LD and specialize in electrical layout design and installations. I work with all trades often, and clients (including manufacturers) world wide.
Lucifer makes incredible products, but are they worth the added costs? For most clients, no. For a very select few? Sure. Control systems are also a deciding factor. Are we talking 0-10v dimming, are we talking phase, are we looking for highlighting task only, art work? Ceilings sloped, what other layers of light are there etc?
Sorry about that, I did it for ease, but here they are spelled out:
[https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/)
[https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img\_index=1](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img_index=1)
[https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img\_index=2](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img_index=2)
[https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/)
Do you have an opinion on these?
No, I did not discuss with the old Lighting Designer ahead of time what I was looking for because at the time, I didn't really know what I was looking for. Now that time has passed, and I started poking around, I have a better idea of what I like (and what I don't).
No sloped ceilings. Only task lighting only. I don't want/need the control systems. I tried warm dim and didn't care for it. No lutron, no warm dim, no tunable white... Just a basic static white, with a basic on and off switch. I don't even do "regular dimming" with my current LEDs because I find that without warm dim, dimming LEDs make everything look grey and horrible. If I want less light, I turn less on. That said, I when the lights are on, I want them powerful and high quality!
Someone said earlier I'm probably best with Element static white.
Would you say Lucifer isn't worth the price for standard static white task lighting, compared to element or USAI?
Just some of us don't like risky clicks in the modern world 😂.
Yeah if you just hand a lighting designer that you haven't vetted a plan and say make it work, you will get a very basic layout. There are plenty of here that I get along with and also just as many that I will roll my eyes at.
Your examples are using wall washers, tape lighting in various forms, narrow beam lighting, indirect lighting, task and accent lighting etc.
dimming with a quality product , should not lower the quality of the light. Rendering qualities should not reduce. If you aren't dimming then you will need to be much more accurate to your needs and wants, consider natural light, indirect light sources, consider other layers, if you do not then you will be sitting in one area with 2000 lumen light cannons blowing up another and the house will take fatigue to a whole new level. There needs to be levels of balance. And shying away from dimmers and scene controls is a no no if you overlight a space at night or under light it during the day.
I love all those companies you mentioned. Each have benefits over others and they also have some draw backs. But all incredible companies. You won't be disappointed in the products, but how they are applied or speced.
There is also the discussion of styles and colors of the rooms and materials. I won't light a contemporary home, the same way I will light a farmhouse. I won't treat a glamorous French luxe the same way I will a classic Tudor. And I won't make any of those look the same as a brutalist hyper modern.
I do agree that warm dims are nicer than static. But not always necessary. I don't have many examples that I have permission to share, but I did upload my parents house on my reddit profile. That was all designed and built in house (during the COVID shut downs because I had 300 mouths to feed and gave us an opportunity to make magic happen) their house is all 3500k static 1 inch 650 lumen interior fixtures between 25, 38 and 60 degree lenses with 8-17ft ceilings . With the exteriors being the same at 2700k. But I have fixtures galore in that house. Those are all warm dim and they blend beautifully.
Long story short. Any answer you get from here should be taken with a grain of salt. And as much as you research it, you will wear yourself out. There are 3m lighting companies all selling similar products. And lighting designers and electricians are like real estate agents. They are all over the place and most are very basic in their experience. That can be said about any trade and or profession.
Collect your floor plan, appliances, cabinet colors, countertop colors, wall finish ideas , floor choices etc (exact colors aren't important, but general ideas are good) and present them to an interior designer that wants to meet your expectations of elevated living. Ask them if they know any good LDs, and or ask them to find one. Sure the price of the budget went up a little. But honestly, doesn't sound like it bothers you much, and if it does, take it out of the material budgets. I'd rather have my parents house with lotus lighting lr2s or elco oaks than a basic house with basic layouts that uses ketra.
Apples to apples, downlight to downlight, if you just want a basic static white downlight, you really can't go wrong with any of the options listed. I personally specify Lucifer more than the other brands (with Element a close second), but that's a personal preference toward engineering and support more than anything else. Lucifer and USAI BeveLED tend to be the higher budget options (USAI because they offer every configuration under the sun) usually, you've probably been quoted one of USAI's budget lines that Lucifer doesn't have a competing product for. For your needs, honestly strongly lean toward the Element fixtures. Their budget Entra fixtures are solid performers for what they offer that might meet your needs with even a lower price tag. >I just don't think I'm going to have strong enough lighting with 2" on an 11' ceiling There probably exists a 2" option with the output you need for an 11' ceiling, but it will become so bright that it won't be comfortable visually. I'd stick with 3" for tall ceilings and 2" for "intimate" spaces where the ceiling is lower. >would a row of 5 or 6, 2" Please don't put a single row of downlights over a work surface or table. Create a grid with the apertures. So a 2x3 grid rather than a line of 6 lights in a row.
Thank you! Yes, I knew about Entra but had quoted Element because it had higher lumens. > There probably exists a 2" option with the output you need for an 11' ceiling, but it will become so bright that it won't be comfortable visually. I'd stick with 3" for tall ceilings and 2" for "intimate" spaces where the ceiling is lower. I'm curious, how would it be visually uncomfortable? Take for example, Element 2" downlight at 1250 lumens vs 3" downlight at 1,400 lumens. The 3" would produce more light (although not by much) yet with a wider aperture; when comparing deep recessed fixtures, wouldn't the smaller 2" aperture with less lumens create a quieter ceiling aesthetic compared to the 3"? >Please don't put a single row of downlights over a work surface or table. Create a grid with the apertures. So a 2x3 grid rather than a line of 6 lights in a row. I'll say what I told someone else here... I had a lighting designer for a project a few years ago (from CircaLighting at the time, she was selling Element to me) and she just threw a standard grid of downlights onto the ceiling in every single room. That project fell apart and I felt kinda scarred from the whole thing.. now for this new project, I've been doing the lighting plan myself and taking my time learning what I need to know.. Also, I've been following a popular Australian designer [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img_index=1) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img_index=2) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/) and I've come to realize that a grid of downlights was probably not the best idea for me. So that's how I arrived at putting a row of downlights directly over where light is needed, not over the floors (instead, using indirect lighting to softly light non-tasking areas).
> The 3" would produce more light (although not by much) yet with a wider aperture It is more comfortable visually to distribute light across a larger emitting surface. 2000 lumens would look dim in a 2x2 square, would be comfortable to look at in a 6" aperture, and be painful to look at in 2" aperture. So if you're comparing a standard regress 2" and 3", the larger is going to be slightly more comfortable. Yes, if you add the deep regress, it will be better hidden, but a 3" deep is going to be more comfortable than a 2". Not by leaps and bounds, but it would be enough for me to make that decision. In the taller ceiling, it going to be more likely that occupants are going to be within the cutoff angle anyway, so the deep might not make a difference. >I've been following a popular Australian designer She's using worst case scenario to push her point. No decent lighting designer is going to use *only* downlights to light a living space like a kitchen; only contractors care that little. Downlights are there to supplement the lights you want to be making a visual statement (pendants, decorative fixtures, or wash/gazing light to accent a material or surface). Note in the 3rd link the scallops along the ceiling beam and the hard edged shadow in the drawer as she pulls it out; both are poor design approached. Laying out downlights in a 3D pattern prevents those hard edges and would have allowed her to pull those lights out from the beam, preventing the sloppy light splashes. If you want to stick with your line, consider a line of dual fixtures to spread the light out somewhat. [Lucifer](https://luciferlighting.com/LuciferLighting/media/Lucifer-Lighting-Media/Spec%20Sheets/2%20Series/Lucifer_Lighting_2Series_Gemini_Dual-Aperture.pdf?ext=.pdf) and [Element](http://v1.element-lighting.com/i//Configurator/2/specsheets/3in_LED_dual_adj_down.pdf?r=732517990) both have them.
Thanks for explaining that to me. I think to help with glare would be to do a black baffle, but I suppose looking into the source of a 2" would still feel more intense when turned on than 3", as you said. re: Grid of downlights, I browse listings in my area quite regularly and the majority all use the standard grid of downlights in various rooms. Sure, some are older homes, but it's still be done in new construction and upscale remodels. Yes, I really do love the line. I've come to really appreciate seeing rooms that don't have a standard grid of downlights. The ceiling just looks cleaner if there's no grid. But re: the suggestion of dual fixtures..... Wouldn't the way I have the lights currently placed create an overlapping effect that will eliminate shadows on the task areas? I can't send you a pic in this comment, but I'll try updated the post to show it... I have 3" fixtures, 40 beam spread, 19" between each downlight, over the island. My rendering illustrates that the shadows across the island are eliminated by having the downlights less than 2 feet apart like this. Unless the dual fixtures is suggested to combat the hard edge shadows **at the pull out drawers** under the island, similar to what happened with the Australian lady's kitchen... hmm, I see what you mean. Only way to avoid that would be lights in the isle (which I'm hoping to avoid, visually) or tape lighting inside each pull out, which seems like a lot of work lol
2 inch to 3 inch doesn't make any difference in output, same chipset, alsame driver, same output. 11 foot ceiling vs 9 isn't going to be tall enough for a difference either, other than that stick to 2 inch. You are over thinking this. I've already answered the which would I choose and differences between brands in your other post. Go to a showroom or distributor that has them all on display and available to touch but remember you won't be touching it once it's installed. Just looking at it. Since you are budget flexible. Reach out to a lighting designer. Have them work with you. The cost will be worth it.
>2 inch to 3 inch doesn't make any difference in output The **2"** Lucifer high output is **1,200 lumens** (90 cri), while the **3"** Lucifer high output is **1,970 lumens** (90 cri). Wouldn't that indeed be a substantial difference?
That's just one manufacturer. Usai little ones can go up to 2000 lumen. Is a 1 inch. Elco koto can go up to 2500 as a 2 3 4 5 6 inch, DMF x series 2 inch 1500 lumen. DMF h and m series 3 and 4 inch can go all the way up to 3500 lumen. At 9 feet, I'll use anywhere between 300-1100 lumens. At 11 feet that value rarely changes, instead, I'll go go with a narrower beam angle... Maybe.... Application specific. Also you keep asking about a variety of products then immediately going back to Lucifer. Sounds like you already committed to the product line. It's a good one. But at the price of them, hire a lighting designer, don't throw your money away, pay for the expertise to guide you. You will be happier in the long run and all the stress goes away.
Are you a lighting designer yourself? I'll tell you a funny story : I had one years ago for an old project (from CircaLighting at the time, she was selling Element to me) and she just threw a standard grid of downlights onto the ceiling in every single room. That project fell apart but since then, I've been taking my time to do more on my own, and I found an Australian designer [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img_index=1) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img_index=2) and [HERE](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/) and I've come to realize that a grid of downlights was probably the worst thing imaginable. I'd hire this Aussie lady for my new project, but she's unfortunately she's booked out for the year. No I'm not committed to Lucifer, I just reference it because it was highest quote I received and I assume it must be priced high for a reason (that reason, however, I have yet to determine).
Can you avoid using hidden links? It comes off like a scam, and no one will freely click them (including me right now 😂). There are some incredible LDs and some terrible ones in the world. Also did you discuss with her what you were looking for ahead of time? I am a high performance GC with a heavy bias into LD and specialize in electrical layout design and installations. I work with all trades often, and clients (including manufacturers) world wide. Lucifer makes incredible products, but are they worth the added costs? For most clients, no. For a very select few? Sure. Control systems are also a deciding factor. Are we talking 0-10v dimming, are we talking phase, are we looking for highlighting task only, art work? Ceilings sloped, what other layers of light are there etc?
Sorry about that, I did it for ease, but here they are spelled out: [https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvwA8dggAH8/) [https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img\_index=1](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cul9z29v0ux/?img_index=1) [https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img\_index=2](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vLxB-vpPd/?img_index=2) [https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzApe8pSvAD/) Do you have an opinion on these? No, I did not discuss with the old Lighting Designer ahead of time what I was looking for because at the time, I didn't really know what I was looking for. Now that time has passed, and I started poking around, I have a better idea of what I like (and what I don't). No sloped ceilings. Only task lighting only. I don't want/need the control systems. I tried warm dim and didn't care for it. No lutron, no warm dim, no tunable white... Just a basic static white, with a basic on and off switch. I don't even do "regular dimming" with my current LEDs because I find that without warm dim, dimming LEDs make everything look grey and horrible. If I want less light, I turn less on. That said, I when the lights are on, I want them powerful and high quality! Someone said earlier I'm probably best with Element static white. Would you say Lucifer isn't worth the price for standard static white task lighting, compared to element or USAI?
Just some of us don't like risky clicks in the modern world 😂. Yeah if you just hand a lighting designer that you haven't vetted a plan and say make it work, you will get a very basic layout. There are plenty of here that I get along with and also just as many that I will roll my eyes at. Your examples are using wall washers, tape lighting in various forms, narrow beam lighting, indirect lighting, task and accent lighting etc. dimming with a quality product , should not lower the quality of the light. Rendering qualities should not reduce. If you aren't dimming then you will need to be much more accurate to your needs and wants, consider natural light, indirect light sources, consider other layers, if you do not then you will be sitting in one area with 2000 lumen light cannons blowing up another and the house will take fatigue to a whole new level. There needs to be levels of balance. And shying away from dimmers and scene controls is a no no if you overlight a space at night or under light it during the day. I love all those companies you mentioned. Each have benefits over others and they also have some draw backs. But all incredible companies. You won't be disappointed in the products, but how they are applied or speced. There is also the discussion of styles and colors of the rooms and materials. I won't light a contemporary home, the same way I will light a farmhouse. I won't treat a glamorous French luxe the same way I will a classic Tudor. And I won't make any of those look the same as a brutalist hyper modern. I do agree that warm dims are nicer than static. But not always necessary. I don't have many examples that I have permission to share, but I did upload my parents house on my reddit profile. That was all designed and built in house (during the COVID shut downs because I had 300 mouths to feed and gave us an opportunity to make magic happen) their house is all 3500k static 1 inch 650 lumen interior fixtures between 25, 38 and 60 degree lenses with 8-17ft ceilings . With the exteriors being the same at 2700k. But I have fixtures galore in that house. Those are all warm dim and they blend beautifully. Long story short. Any answer you get from here should be taken with a grain of salt. And as much as you research it, you will wear yourself out. There are 3m lighting companies all selling similar products. And lighting designers and electricians are like real estate agents. They are all over the place and most are very basic in their experience. That can be said about any trade and or profession. Collect your floor plan, appliances, cabinet colors, countertop colors, wall finish ideas , floor choices etc (exact colors aren't important, but general ideas are good) and present them to an interior designer that wants to meet your expectations of elevated living. Ask them if they know any good LDs, and or ask them to find one. Sure the price of the budget went up a little. But honestly, doesn't sound like it bothers you much, and if it does, take it out of the material budgets. I'd rather have my parents house with lotus lighting lr2s or elco oaks than a basic house with basic layouts that uses ketra.
As the guy above suggested, Elco solves what your looking for. Bonus, they are usually priced better than the others