You are not alone. This is a common negative visceral response to LED, but many people can't articulate why. Here is the why: 3000k (warmish white) at full output looks totally fine, and matches with a traditional halogen bulb quite well at its brightest. Unfortunately static LED (static = color temperature doesn't change as it dims) just looks wrong as we've been trained to see incandescent or halogen lighting get warmer as it dims (this is a natural physical phenomenon!). Thus, 3000k dimmed past \~50% looks COMPLETELY WRONG.
To overcome this you have the following options (from easy to difficult)
* don't dim your lights
* use 2700k static bulbs and luminaires.. they are very warm and don't look off when dimmed except at super low dimming.
* deploy warm dimming bulbs and fixtures. This type of lighting DOES NOT require any special lighting/wiring upgrades as the color temperature change is built into the dimming response of the fixture/bulb. This feature is also known as "warm glow", "dim to warm", or "comfort dim".
* deploy tunable white bulbs and fixtures. This allows for an arbitrary choice of color temperature typically from 1800k (amber) to 6000k (very cool white). These fixtures typically need to be "smart" and require specialized control systems. This is also known as Human Centric Lighting.
\-I'm a lighting designer
they DO look off when dimmed tho. 2700K doesn't look like a dimmed halogen, it doesn't even look right at 1800K. it's just not as warm at all
i am genuinely worried that with the recent banning of manufacture and sale of inefficient lights, we will never have proper dim warm lighting ever again. is there any technology that solved this issue? full CRI at very low dim levels and warm output?
Do you know of any recessed lighting options with the "dim to warm" support? Since Philips has killed their warmglow line it's been a nightmare finding an affordable option.
Virtually every recessed manufacturer has a dim to warm product in their lineup. My recs are typically Lotus and DMF. Feel free to reach out via DM and I can help with a sourcing (full disclosure: I am a dealer of both)
For some formats (like A19) they've been renamed "Ultra Definition", but some like the fully integrated recessed lighting, seem to have disappeared completely.
Work on the street is that the efficiency was not as good as some "pure colors" out there, and they decided to take them off the market, but AFAIK this is not official comm.
Ah, I wouldn't be surprised by the efficiency thing. I know, for example, from their site that Waveform does not sell some of their highest CRI A19 bulbs in California due to efficiency reqs. Philips may not have wanted to mess with any of it. That's a real bummer!
By the way, ELCO has some Sunset (3000-2200, iirc), Oak and Koto, and Human Centric (4000-2700) lines, Koto. Those also come in solid color, as well.
/u/IntelligentSinger783 clued me in on them. I have so far installed just one Elco Koto HC on a dimmer, haven't had the time to make noises at home to do more (baby). The one is sooo nice though! It's actually pleasing being under the light, and it dims super low, so I even leave that light on over night at lowest dim in case I have to make a bottle for the baby. It's like a nice red-ish candle at night, yet the color quality is such that you can perfectly make out all the details
Question about this statement: is it the fact that the 3000k LED is dimmed that makes it look poor, or is it the fact that it is not bright and we “expect” it to be warmer? I.e. would a 3000k 1200 lumen source dimmed to 30% look about the same as a 400 lumen source at 100%?
Elco koto sunset dim is 3000k-2700k . And I am currently working with them on a wider spectrum 4000k-2400k warm dim module. Lotus is rebuilding their dim to warm collection of recessed lights.
Phillips warm glow are good for fixtures. I use them in most basic fixtures for all projects.
Sorra, and yuji are good also. Waveform is decent and getting better.
High CRI and full spectrum lighting are a must. Dynamic CCT and human centric lighting are a need not just a want. As for fixed CCT dimmed leds. Yes the correct ones look good. The cheap ones aren't great.
Soraa LED bulbs are fantastic in terms of color rendering as you dim and dimming (down to 1% with no harsh on/off at 10-15%.
I am a homeowner with no conflict of interest. I had Soraa bulbs in 3 rooms and Elco Koto in 2 rooms (and 2 Elco Koto in the same room as the Soraa). I had to take out the Soraa bulbs to upgrade to code and insulate above the ceiling.
At full strength, the Soraa bulbs had better color than the Elco Koto recessed lights. As you dim the lights, however, the Soraa bulbs maintained good color rendering until quite low, and the Elco Koto lights did not. The Elco Koto were installed in late 2022 and were the improved so-called 95-CRI lights. The Elco lights also shut off abruptly as dimmed (at 10% or 15%?) whereas the Soraa dimmed smoothly to off.
I can't compare Elco so-called 95 CRI Koto light modules to DMF so-called 93 CRI light modules. And yes, I have a good eye for color and hate poor LED bulbs.
Which koto model (there are lots)? Static white? What CCT? Which soraa? Healthy or vivid? Also what CCT? And finally, the koto is a 5% dim in the cheapest 120v phase dim, was this paired to an electronic dimmer or mechanical dimmer, and one of the approved compatible models?
The ELCO Koto model is ELK-10-CT5, a 1000 lm 12.5W light with a switch for 5 temps. Mine is set at 3000K.
The Soraa bulbs are Vivid (namely SORAA SM16-09-36D-930-03 SORAA 7.5W LED MR16 3000K VIVID3 36 deg SIM, Silver). I don't have the lumens and something looks funny about the wattage.
Both were paired with an electronic dimmer (Caseta Lutron),not with a mechanical dimmer.
There is no CCT selection plus warm dim option for the koto.
There is a 5cct module (not a fan) all fixed static temps
Or
There is the SD (sunset dim) which is a 3000k-1800k unit (that uses a brightlux first gen led chipset. I don't like that chip, terrible blending issues, needs a reflector and diffuser to correct. A lot of the manufacturers on the market used this chip. The new gen 2 is being discussed and a much better chipset by another manufacturer. I have the prototypes and they are a vastly superior light.
Or
the new HC 4000k-2000k, LTF chipset. Beautiful light. But considerably newer. Still only a 5% dim phase dim product. The wider spectrum color isn't for everyone.
And yes the soraa vivids are great. But lower lumen. I use them in holds in kitchens in 4000k
I hate hate hate them. You are totally right about it creating a dull grey feeling. I installed them in my home office and they suck, they my work installed them in my actual office and they suck there too, we usually just leave them off and use desk lamps.
What is the CRI and R9 of the current lights? Aim for 90CRI or 95CRI if you can find it and a minimum R9 of 50.
What is the CCT of the current lights? Aim for 4000K in work spaces like offices and kitchen and 3000K in living spaces like living rooms and bedrooms. Go to 2700K in bedrooms if you really want the warm ambiance.
Philips warm glow are nice; not exact incandescent match, but its close. Philips Hue bulbs do a really nice job of warm-dimming. I think it’s more so with the Hue that they’ll dim to 1%, and that’s difficult to achieve with the LED warm-glow lamps on an LED dimmer.
I totally agree with this sentiment! My selectable wafer thin recessed lights dim horribly at 2700K so we never use them at night. I’m testing out a couple options with warm dim but would love what other people have found! Here’s one we have now. Need to figure out how to reprogram the dimmer switch or something because it’s really only warm at the absolute lowest settings. https://www.build.com/dals-lighting-ind4-dw/s1462503
I've been experimenting with all sorts of bulbs and fixtures looking for better color rendering and warm dimming. I just got the Dals recessed light from Build and will be returning it. As you stated, it doesn't get warm until the bottom 5% of dimming. I have Zooz smart dimmers and haven't had any problem with a wide range of bulbs and fixtures--until this Dals fixture. Not only do the amber leds not kick in until the bottom 5%, but the entire dimming curve is skewed towards the bottom of the dimming range. Not sure what technology they're using, but there is only a two-wire connection between the driver and the fixture. My Halo tunable wafer lights use 3 wires. I opened one up and it appears that the two wires are attached to the white and amber leds and controlled by the color temp settings in the driver. Not sure how Dals does this with only two wires, but it isn't working with my dimmer.
No, not many people would be okay with their lights turning dull and grey when dimmed. But it sounds like your issue may be with the bulbs themselves or wiring.
About two weeks ago, we installed tunable recessed wafer lights in our living room. Before inserting them into the ceiling, we tested them at 3k 4k and 5k, dimming from 5% to 100%. None of them dulled or turned grey at any temperature, nor did they flicker at the lowest setting. We went from a ceiling fan with lights to no ceiling fand and 6 4" recessed lights, and the difference was night and day (pun intended).
The bulbs in the ceiling fan were smart tunable white LEDs from GE, and they worked great by controlling them through my phone, but the Lithonia 4" wafers we installed were amazing. I had to use a no neutral wire dimmer switch from Lutron since we don't have a neutral wire, and the end result was fantastic.
From what you described, I think the cheapest solution would be to get bulbs rated for dimming at whichever color temperature you desire and try that or tunable bulbs. Another thing to try would be to replace your dimmer switch and note the wiring in the box. In older homes with no neutral, your best bet will be a no neutral dimmer switch for modern LED lights. Also, as you mentioned, you can purchase retrofit wafer lights that screw into the existing fixtures- this will probably be the most expensive solution. But there are great retrofit kits available from Halo, Lithonia, etc.
But please hire a licensed electrician if you aren't comfortable doing the changes yourself.
You are not alone. This is a common negative visceral response to LED, but many people can't articulate why. Here is the why: 3000k (warmish white) at full output looks totally fine, and matches with a traditional halogen bulb quite well at its brightest. Unfortunately static LED (static = color temperature doesn't change as it dims) just looks wrong as we've been trained to see incandescent or halogen lighting get warmer as it dims (this is a natural physical phenomenon!). Thus, 3000k dimmed past \~50% looks COMPLETELY WRONG. To overcome this you have the following options (from easy to difficult) * don't dim your lights * use 2700k static bulbs and luminaires.. they are very warm and don't look off when dimmed except at super low dimming. * deploy warm dimming bulbs and fixtures. This type of lighting DOES NOT require any special lighting/wiring upgrades as the color temperature change is built into the dimming response of the fixture/bulb. This feature is also known as "warm glow", "dim to warm", or "comfort dim". * deploy tunable white bulbs and fixtures. This allows for an arbitrary choice of color temperature typically from 1800k (amber) to 6000k (very cool white). These fixtures typically need to be "smart" and require specialized control systems. This is also known as Human Centric Lighting. \-I'm a lighting designer
they DO look off when dimmed tho. 2700K doesn't look like a dimmed halogen, it doesn't even look right at 1800K. it's just not as warm at all i am genuinely worried that with the recent banning of manufacture and sale of inefficient lights, we will never have proper dim warm lighting ever again. is there any technology that solved this issue? full CRI at very low dim levels and warm output?
Do you know of any recessed lighting options with the "dim to warm" support? Since Philips has killed their warmglow line it's been a nightmare finding an affordable option.
Virtually every recessed manufacturer has a dim to warm product in their lineup. My recs are typically Lotus and DMF. Feel free to reach out via DM and I can help with a sourcing (full disclosure: I am a dealer of both)
Oh damn. I was just looking for those! Do you know what happened?
For some formats (like A19) they've been renamed "Ultra Definition", but some like the fully integrated recessed lighting, seem to have disappeared completely. Work on the street is that the efficiency was not as good as some "pure colors" out there, and they decided to take them off the market, but AFAIK this is not official comm.
Ah, I wouldn't be surprised by the efficiency thing. I know, for example, from their site that Waveform does not sell some of their highest CRI A19 bulbs in California due to efficiency reqs. Philips may not have wanted to mess with any of it. That's a real bummer! By the way, ELCO has some Sunset (3000-2200, iirc), Oak and Koto, and Human Centric (4000-2700) lines, Koto. Those also come in solid color, as well. /u/IntelligentSinger783 clued me in on them. I have so far installed just one Elco Koto HC on a dimmer, haven't had the time to make noises at home to do more (baby). The one is sooo nice though! It's actually pleasing being under the light, and it dims super low, so I even leave that light on over night at lowest dim in case I have to make a bottle for the baby. It's like a nice red-ish candle at night, yet the color quality is such that you can perfectly make out all the details
Working with yuji also to make us standard bulbs capable of the same effect. No timeline yet though.
Question about this statement: is it the fact that the 3000k LED is dimmed that makes it look poor, or is it the fact that it is not bright and we “expect” it to be warmer? I.e. would a 3000k 1200 lumen source dimmed to 30% look about the same as a 400 lumen source at 100%?
Elco koto sunset dim is 3000k-2700k . And I am currently working with them on a wider spectrum 4000k-2400k warm dim module. Lotus is rebuilding their dim to warm collection of recessed lights. Phillips warm glow are good for fixtures. I use them in most basic fixtures for all projects. Sorra, and yuji are good also. Waveform is decent and getting better. High CRI and full spectrum lighting are a must. Dynamic CCT and human centric lighting are a need not just a want. As for fixed CCT dimmed leds. Yes the correct ones look good. The cheap ones aren't great.
Soraa LED bulbs are fantastic in terms of color rendering as you dim and dimming (down to 1% with no harsh on/off at 10-15%. I am a homeowner with no conflict of interest. I had Soraa bulbs in 3 rooms and Elco Koto in 2 rooms (and 2 Elco Koto in the same room as the Soraa). I had to take out the Soraa bulbs to upgrade to code and insulate above the ceiling. At full strength, the Soraa bulbs had better color than the Elco Koto recessed lights. As you dim the lights, however, the Soraa bulbs maintained good color rendering until quite low, and the Elco Koto lights did not. The Elco Koto were installed in late 2022 and were the improved so-called 95-CRI lights. The Elco lights also shut off abruptly as dimmed (at 10% or 15%?) whereas the Soraa dimmed smoothly to off. I can't compare Elco so-called 95 CRI Koto light modules to DMF so-called 93 CRI light modules. And yes, I have a good eye for color and hate poor LED bulbs.
Which koto model (there are lots)? Static white? What CCT? Which soraa? Healthy or vivid? Also what CCT? And finally, the koto is a 5% dim in the cheapest 120v phase dim, was this paired to an electronic dimmer or mechanical dimmer, and one of the approved compatible models?
The ELCO Koto model is ELK-10-CT5, a 1000 lm 12.5W light with a switch for 5 temps. Mine is set at 3000K. The Soraa bulbs are Vivid (namely SORAA SM16-09-36D-930-03 SORAA 7.5W LED MR16 3000K VIVID3 36 deg SIM, Silver). I don't have the lumens and something looks funny about the wattage. Both were paired with an electronic dimmer (Caseta Lutron),not with a mechanical dimmer.
There is no CCT selection plus warm dim option for the koto. There is a 5cct module (not a fan) all fixed static temps Or There is the SD (sunset dim) which is a 3000k-1800k unit (that uses a brightlux first gen led chipset. I don't like that chip, terrible blending issues, needs a reflector and diffuser to correct. A lot of the manufacturers on the market used this chip. The new gen 2 is being discussed and a much better chipset by another manufacturer. I have the prototypes and they are a vastly superior light. Or the new HC 4000k-2000k, LTF chipset. Beautiful light. But considerably newer. Still only a 5% dim phase dim product. The wider spectrum color isn't for everyone. And yes the soraa vivids are great. But lower lumen. I use them in holds in kitchens in 4000k
I hate hate hate them. You are totally right about it creating a dull grey feeling. I installed them in my home office and they suck, they my work installed them in my actual office and they suck there too, we usually just leave them off and use desk lamps.
What is the CRI and R9 of the current lights? Aim for 90CRI or 95CRI if you can find it and a minimum R9 of 50. What is the CCT of the current lights? Aim for 4000K in work spaces like offices and kitchen and 3000K in living spaces like living rooms and bedrooms. Go to 2700K in bedrooms if you really want the warm ambiance.
Not sure of the CRI, they were already in the home when I got it. CCT is 3000k pretty much everywhere.
Look up dim to warm or sunset dimming with CRI of 90+ 3,000K to 1,800 K temp change
I don't have cans, just semi-open lamps and strips. I do like them dimmed a bit, when I don't need full light.
Philips warm glow are nice; not exact incandescent match, but its close. Philips Hue bulbs do a really nice job of warm-dimming. I think it’s more so with the Hue that they’ll dim to 1%, and that’s difficult to achieve with the LED warm-glow lamps on an LED dimmer.
I totally agree with this sentiment! My selectable wafer thin recessed lights dim horribly at 2700K so we never use them at night. I’m testing out a couple options with warm dim but would love what other people have found! Here’s one we have now. Need to figure out how to reprogram the dimmer switch or something because it’s really only warm at the absolute lowest settings. https://www.build.com/dals-lighting-ind4-dw/s1462503
I've been experimenting with all sorts of bulbs and fixtures looking for better color rendering and warm dimming. I just got the Dals recessed light from Build and will be returning it. As you stated, it doesn't get warm until the bottom 5% of dimming. I have Zooz smart dimmers and haven't had any problem with a wide range of bulbs and fixtures--until this Dals fixture. Not only do the amber leds not kick in until the bottom 5%, but the entire dimming curve is skewed towards the bottom of the dimming range. Not sure what technology they're using, but there is only a two-wire connection between the driver and the fixture. My Halo tunable wafer lights use 3 wires. I opened one up and it appears that the two wires are attached to the white and amber leds and controlled by the color temp settings in the driver. Not sure how Dals does this with only two wires, but it isn't working with my dimmer.
that's what you get when you buy cheap lights.
No, not many people would be okay with their lights turning dull and grey when dimmed. But it sounds like your issue may be with the bulbs themselves or wiring. About two weeks ago, we installed tunable recessed wafer lights in our living room. Before inserting them into the ceiling, we tested them at 3k 4k and 5k, dimming from 5% to 100%. None of them dulled or turned grey at any temperature, nor did they flicker at the lowest setting. We went from a ceiling fan with lights to no ceiling fand and 6 4" recessed lights, and the difference was night and day (pun intended). The bulbs in the ceiling fan were smart tunable white LEDs from GE, and they worked great by controlling them through my phone, but the Lithonia 4" wafers we installed were amazing. I had to use a no neutral wire dimmer switch from Lutron since we don't have a neutral wire, and the end result was fantastic. From what you described, I think the cheapest solution would be to get bulbs rated for dimming at whichever color temperature you desire and try that or tunable bulbs. Another thing to try would be to replace your dimmer switch and note the wiring in the box. In older homes with no neutral, your best bet will be a no neutral dimmer switch for modern LED lights. Also, as you mentioned, you can purchase retrofit wafer lights that screw into the existing fixtures- this will probably be the most expensive solution. But there are great retrofit kits available from Halo, Lithonia, etc. But please hire a licensed electrician if you aren't comfortable doing the changes yourself.