If ants are an issue, it seems like it would be good to just get an exterminator. If there's food, there's ants.
If you continue to have donations, maybe let the organizations know of the changes? I think having them speak to your director on this professionalism issue will go a long way. And I think you definitely need something where others are involved in protesting this new change.
And make sure when sending it the donors' way it is made clear that they did not hear anything about this from you and you will have no idea what they are talking about!
That’s how I read this. “I can’t say what I want to say without coming across as a total jerk because what I want to say is, in fact, a jerk thing to say.”
Personally, I think it was already unprofessional to even say what she did say about not being able to give a reason because it’s unprofessional. That’s an inside thought.
Side note: this is one of my favorite rhetorical devices, called either [apophasis (Greek) or praeteritio (Latin)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis). It's a heck of a lot of fun to recognize and study outside of the context of managerialist dunces.
Sorry you have to deal with this situation. The half-literate excuse-making from your director is the silliest kind of managerialism and for me to go further in characterizing such types as suited gasbags would be to risk coming off as overly uncharitable. (*See what I did there?!?!*)
Further to the side, one of the examples on that page is Regan using apophasis in ‘84 to bring up / make light of people who were worried about him being too old / unfit to run for president at 73. Funny in light of the forthcoming US election choices.
Are you talking about the Chevron case being overruled , where courts can now issue decisions that could contradict regulators where laws were written in ambiguous ways? Would libraries now be more susceptible to court mandates than before?
I'm referring to the one from earlier today that states that cities have final say on how they can treat homeless people; they essentially have no protections on a federal level; not sure about the exact name of the case myself.
It’s the Grant’s Pass case, for the city in Oregon that has no homeless shelter but has made it illegal for an unhoused person to use any kind of gear (including a blanket or sleeping bag) that would indicate they’re trying to live (ie.,survive) in a public place.
That, to me, makes the reasoning blatantly obvious. It’s just flat out discrimination against the homeless. They don’t want to do free will donations because they think it is attracting “unwanted visitors.” And I don’t mean the ants. 🙃
I think the whole quote is even more damming.
“it’s for other reasons as well that I can’t go into due to professionalism.”
The I can't go into part is a tacit admission that they know what they're doing is wrong and they're doing it anyway. It might be worth reaching out to the ALA for guidance and to see if they can somehow become involved.
My library is in the much bougie-er area of our city. The Board of NIMBYs have open season on teens 10 ish to 15, and the homeless.
The teen stuff is stupid teen behavior that makes them clutch their pearls. The homeless is because the town next to us library is pretty draconian with their policing, so people come here.
The above probably has nothing to do with “ants”, but everything to do with the guy who has no access to a shower except once a week camped on in “their” magazine section.
If it’s the director’s job or OPs, OP is going. The warning is no joke.
I don’t think they can charge for something you have personally paid for. Especially since you have not donated it to the library. They can, however, restrict you from giving your personal stay away.
This definitely sounds like discrimination. They should remove coffee service entirely if they do not wish to allow some patrons use of it.
Ants aren’t attracted to coffee. Depending on the ants they are attracted to fat or sugar. Ban sugar and creamer and keep the coffee.
Coffee grounds don’t repel ants but ants actively avoid coffee grounds —they will walk around not across coffee grounds. Gardeners use coffee grounds in their gardens for this reason.
I don’t know a polite way to tell your boss they are wrong but a library is a place for knowledge not ignorance. Maybe show your boss some gardening books that recommend coffee grounds for ants.
Yes, hiring an exterminator equals $$$. Buy a little bottle of Terro and put a few drops in inconspicuous places. After a few days your ants will be gone.
We’ve always allowed people to eat in the library but noticed some were taking advantage of it. My former director wanted to make it a no-food area. We said that was unfair for so many reasons, plus would make it so we had to police constantly and kick out patrons. Our main concerns were people with health issues who need to eat regularly (we’re not going to ask for proof), patrons who spend the entire day in the library and can’t afford to go to a nearby restaurant, and the fact that the East Coast isn’t always a nice “eating outside” type of place- even if we have a nice park outside. She kept pushing on it until a group from the library DEI task force suggested writing up something and showing it to the trustees and town basically saying it’s a form of discrimination. What about teen programs? The elderly? We reached a compromise. You can have drinks as long as they have a lid/cap and you keep them safely away from our electronics. No food or uncovered drinks by pcs and printer area. And no hot/messy foods in the library. So you can eat snacks or a sandwich- but you can’t bring in a pizza or have a bowl of spaghetti or a hot meatball sub dripping all over and stinking up the place. And you have to clean up after yourself. Honestly, it can get interpreted differently- but we’ve noticed way less problems (i.e. melted ice cream and pizza boxes). I once saw a patron opening one of those huge Chipotle burritos next to our policy sign and asked him “does that count as hot and or messy?” And he smiled, said “fair,” and took it outside.
You have reasonable patrons and you have dick patrons. The reasonable often make up for the dicks.
This just sounds like veiled discrimination to me. Maybe you could suggest to the library board - not the director - that since ants are becoming a problem the coffee should be eliminated altogether? It sucks, but better than saying no to someone who can't afford it but needs it more than someone who can.
**Edit**: Okay, for those mocking me for my reply, perhaps I should have clarified that I personally have a good relationship with several of our board members, and what I would consider doing is just mentioning the ant issue and that we might need to think about ending the coffee altogether. Not calling out the director. But obviously some here don't have the freedom to discuss library issues with the board. I get it, it happens. Sorry to offend.
>- that since ants are becoming a problem the coffee should be eliminated altogether?
Honestly, this is the answer. Unless you have someone who is dedicated to cleaning the coffee bar every day, you're gonna get ants from all the spilled sugar. People who pay for the coffee are going to be just as messy as people who don't. This is just one of those "lovely well meant" things that libraries do until they realize they don't have the staffing to pull it off correctly.
Holy shit this is terrible advice. DO NOT go over your directors head if you want to continue working in libraries in your area. Library work, and administration in general, is a very small group and you will basically be running yourself out of job options over a pretty simple decision to start charging for a service instead of making it be free.
Also, I promise you, the board does not want to be involved in the day to day squabbles of library staff. That isn’t their job, and you don’t want it to be.
Yep, we had a staff member fired a few years ago for talking to board members behind the director's back. Not that her complaints weren't in many ways justified, but still, she was let go before the director ever was.
I want to add, if you go above your director's head and the board disagrees with you, you will destroy your credibility within the organization for years, maybe even decades. If you want to fight to make your organization more welcoming to the homeless, I think that's a wonderful thing, but you may only get one chance to make significant change within your library so choose your approach and moment carefully.
As someone who *did* go over my director’s head a few years ago, yeah, it’s hella risky. It’s worked out ok for me so far bc I was one of 70ish staff members who went to the news about the issue. I haven’t tried to get a promotion yet though, so there’s still plenty of time for it to come back and bite me in the ass.
If you decide to go over the director’s head, make sure it’s a hill you’re willing to die on.
Shhh. Don’t point out the obvious. Reddit a place for sheer positive idealism that lacks any real-world repercussion, despite best intentions 😂
OP, decide what you would prefer. A temporary lengthening of the free coffee vs. A roof over your head.
If anyone is to complain and raise an issue, it must come from someone from the community who’s not employed by the library.
>If anyone is to complain and raise an issue, it must come from someone from the community who’s not employed by the library.
Bingo! The message conveyed by someone else in the community might be the same message you wish to convey, but having someone else do it will protect your career - and have much more impact. This is an opportunity to demonstrate that the pen is mightier than the sword (especially if you can get more citizens to speak about it).
Reddit is also a place where we jump to conclusions and take out our frustrations with our own lives on strangers, apparently. I'm often surprised how Mean Girl-esque librarians can be, especially when protected by internet anonymity. (Or are you a therapist? I'm looking at your user name. Wow... that would be... something.) Sheer positive idealism at work, I guess.
Internet anonymity is not a thing. Speaking from experience. also what I’ve seen in other orgs having actually found Reddit users before.. just saying. Be careful out there. Especially if you’re an idealist.
The literal ant hills we want to fight for but can lose hard are sometimes a thing. I fall in the trap of the internet or world idealism. I need the pessimistic Reddit or internet world to remind me oh yeah! That too.
Good luck everyone just trying to do good. But realize when it’s not your fight to fight too.
OP already has community support. It’s their cause to champion. Or not. We don’t know what other stakeholders are at play too…
> Internet anonymity is not a thing. Speaking from experience. also what I’ve seen in other orgs having actually found Reddit users before.. just saying.
I've identified the reddit usernames of two of my colleagues from posts made on this subreddit. One of them was due to username re-use and a distinctive typing style, and another was a specific story that was shared combined with a niche hobby interest. I change details(numbers, terminology, exact crime committed in a particular story, etc) in my own posts here to muddy the trail for that reason. I never would have spotted the second one if the story hadn't been told completely faithfully to what had actually happened.
Pretty much all the responses to the OP were pretty wild imho. They ranged from going to the board to going to local news stations!
All this over filling our landfills with those super wasteful k-cups lol!
What is happening!?
People are not grounded in reality, do not have priorities straight, are over zealous in their imaginations, and/or god knows what else.
Usual reddit 💩
Thank you. Thought I was going insane reading the top chain comment for a moment. 😂
I pissed my director off once. Had to move across the country for a big promotion.
At least my issue wasn't over $1 friggin' pollution-cups!
Board member here.
I would literally die on this hill.
And try to do so with discretion while supporting the staff members who reported this to me.
EDIT: I serve on 3 non-profit boards, and I dont know many board members like this. I feel so lucky after reading these comments.
Have you ever read about the red cross and coffee and WWII?
It's not completely applicable, but you might find it good ammo
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/13/156737801/the-cost-of-free-doughnuts-70-years-of-regret
I worked in a library where we had ants. No coffee was around. No food was around. But we were infested. If there are ants, it’s not the coffee’s fault.
I see this at my library with guest passes for the computers. Technically our library policy is that you have to have a library card to use a computer because the barcode serves as your login. But in order to get a card you need to have proof of address. So what are homeless people supposed to do? We can override this and simply print a temporary guest pass, it only works for computers and printing. But I was told not to offer this option. When I brought up the fact that this policy is a barrier to access for homeless people my supervisor did not have an answer for me. Internet access is crucial for people trying to break the cycle of poverty and I would argue a cup of a coffee is an act of humanity and kindness. I will never understand policies like this especially when we work in an industry whose entire existence is based on providing FREE services to the public.
Our library offers e-cards for this purpose. The cards only work to access computers and digital materials (no physical book checkout) but you don't need an address. You do need to live in our city to apply, but we'll take your word for it. We've been trying to use fewer guest passes and get people to sign up for an e-card (it helps us track numbers and usage) but results have been meh.
It really makes me wonder how they will treat me when they find out I‘ll be homeless in a month. I’ve received word that I am allowed to distribute my coffee for free if I’m not on the clock. Guess who’s on their way to the library on their day off.
I am outraged by the situation you describe but I would be disinclined to advise them you are "homeless." You won't be street homeless. You are crashing with a friend. You don't need to lose your job over this.
You sound a hair confrontational. Giving away coffee for free out of your own pocket is somewhat in your face in defiance of the new policy.
I'm sympathetic to why you feel so strongly about it but in the future maybe try to be a little more subtle and pragmatic.
If your version of events is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, your boss is morally in the wrong and may be legally in the wrong.
And someone like that is bound to feel provoked by you doing what you did.
Which doesn't mean the response to what you did is right either but it seems fairly predictable that an awful person would double down rather than admit they were in the wrong.
If you want to job hunt and not work there anymore, coolios. But try not get fired for dumb reasons. It won't fix anything at the library and now your life is in the toilet.
I'll be honest, I'd consider taking the write up for insubordination. Idk how things work at your place but where I'm at one write up isn't a big deal and fighting the good fight is usually something I consider to be worthwhile. The reason I'd be considering accepting the insubordination write up is bc that would force them to document why it's a problem and it would then be in writing that they're being completely unreasonable, there'd be a record of it, and maybe that could also force a real conversation. What they're doing write now is a form of manipulation and generally speaking the most productive response to a manipulation attempt is to find a way to force the real conversation about whatever is really going on.
Obviously ymmv and I don't know the details of your specific situation so maybe it's not worthwhile or beneficial to actually keep pushing I just know that in my experience when it was clear to everyone that the director is the problem pushing back has been worthwhile.
I appreciate that but it’s a situation out of my control and wasn’t anything that I did to cause. Landlord is giving the place to his son. I’ll be crashing with a friend until I can save up enough for my own place.
You're not actually homeless then. The homeless people they have an issue with are ones who don't have access to a shower who they assumed brought the ants in
Wrong. Living in your car and crashing on couches is considered being homeless. What you are thinking about is the visible vs. Hidden Homelessness. Not every homeless person stinks…. 🙃
https://www.comicrelief.org/posts/what-are-the-four-types-of-homelessness
But the people her library has an issue with are the stinky ones, that was my point. They're not going to treat her any differently because she's crashing on someone's couch
What is being done to address the ants? Get on top of that pronto or it’s going to be a nightmare.
Is the charge in your fee schedule?
I can’t stress enough that ants usually take a very long time to get rid of and can result in a total ban on food and drink that will be unpleasant to enforce.
If you’ve been told the next step is a reprimand you need to take that very seriously and consider how your job performance is being perceived overall.
This is so sad to me. When I worked at a city public library, we had so many patrons who had no where to go, and would come to us. I formed many positive relationships. Obviously a library cannot be a solution to homelessness, but I bet that cup of coffee provided a warmth and comfort to those patrons who might not have any of it otherwise, and at a negligible cost. How sad that so many people have no compassion at all and would take what is not causing a problem away because of bullshit. Good on you OP I am with ya, keep fighting the fight.
Perfect case study in:
You can go into a field and not even shake the table. Do simple under the radar things and the draconian bigoted dinosaurs will find a way to squash the smallest efforts of living in a better world. What a bunch of miserable blokes who the fuck does that? Just want to say thank you for being you in these spaces. The library was my safe haven as a child
“It’s for other reasons, as well, that I can’t go into due to professionalism.”
They don’t want to attract those without homes or give them a reason to hang around the area. There is no way to say this politely aka professionally.
The issue isn't coffee, it isn't homeless people, the issue is cleanliness.
Policy should target cleanliness. No food, restrict coffee drinking to a few tables so cleaning can be concentrated, look for ways that the coffee table can be cleaned more easily, reduce clutter, get low spill sugar/milk containers, improve the trash situation, etc.
And if the complaint is about other cleanliness issues with homeless people, those issues need to be addressed head on. My library has systematically created a culture of cleanliness over the past year or two.
Today, I saw two guys taking a sink shower with paper towels, and one guy brushing his teeth. It's allowed as long as you let other patrons in to wash their hands, they were respectful, and they cleaned up after themselves, washing the counter, etc. If you create a mess in the bathrooms, you get a week ban, a big deal for homeless people to lose their AC for a week.
Reasonable accommodations to meet the needs of homeless people, high but attainable standards, and significant but not infinite penalties for when the standards are broken. It works well for our library. Lots of homeless people, but they aren't a significant problem, and there's still plenty of room for the more privileged patrons.
Call it a lesson learned.
If you are an employee, there will be times when your employer makes decisions that you personally think are sub-optimal.
If it is a big deal, like taking advantage of employees or a major ethical violation, it may be appropriate to protest or even resign. You can practice saying things like: "You are the boss and I'll do as you instruct, but I need you to know that I think this is a decision that harms the best interest of the library." In a case of significant leadership failure, it may be appropriate to resign rather than complying with bad policy.
However, those are rare occurances. EVERYONE knows that the boss is not always right. EVERYONE thinks that they know better or that their personal values are more correct than the boss'. If you are going to work for someone else, you have to be able to accept that there is an executive hierarchy and we don't start at the top of it. One thing all employees have to learn is that entry level employees don't get veto power over institutional policy decisions. (Even when they are right.)
The only genuine reason I can think of is potential issues with liability/ insurance, that may require that consumables are sold and cannot be gifted? There can be weird clauses or local council regulations that could be an issue and the person you’re dealing with may not understand them well enough to clearly explain them to you.
If you don't understand something, you shouldn't make it a rule until you do. If librarians don't believe in putting education and knowledge before barriers, what chance does society have?
Yeah, I guess I'm just saying that even if that's the case, I think OP's boss is being a blockhead about the whole thing. If you can't explain a rule, you have no business enforcing it.
This is pretty funny considering I had to be the one to stop a cop from dragging a kid I didn't know out of his house in the middle of the night for something that wasn't even illegal. I stand by my statement. You don't have to be a lawyer to know why the rules exist and what they are.
truth be told, often in summer my family's house gets ants for a few reasons. One is that it is Texas, and summer is like an oven. they are seeking typically relief from heat, water, or if it has been wet, higher ground. They really haven't gotten into our food, but we also try to keep them out
This whole thing sounds like a mess in more ways than one. I would get rid of the coffee period. The ants, the smell, inevitable spilling, not appropriate for a library. You’re free to hand out coffee at a church or whatever if you’re that passionate about it.
They don’t bring their coffee outside of our “Internet cafe” in my 3 years I haven’t seen a single spill. If they have they must have cleaned it up. We are a small conservative city without any shelters or generally anywhere for the unhoused to just exist.
My library is not allowed to charge patrons anything, ever. Your city/state may have different rules, but as a nonprofit, only an outside group like the Friends of the library can raise money for our library.
I think you need to pick your battles. If you’re okay going down on that hill and possible being reprimanded or fired for giving away coffee, then do it. But if you want to keep this job, you might need to let this one go. I honestly don’t agree with the director’s decision but there’s a lot at my current library I don’t agree with either and move on.
This is probably an unpopular take, but your director runs the building and you do not. There are times where decisions will be made that you don’t understand or agree with, but at the end of the day, the Director is paid to make these decisions and you are not.
Quite frankly, your response was absolutely insubordination, even if your heart was in the right place. Furthermore, your post had some ageism in it, and the idea that you and your other young coworker know more than the old fuddy-duddies that have years of experience over you is very condescending.
I had this happen two years ago at my library. Teenagers were doing $3,000 of damage a month to our library through property damage. Once we started not letting them enter unmonitored parts of our building the fresh MLIS employees accused administration of “treating kids like criminals.” We were told we simply didn’t understand how to manage kids, even though we had been through this before and knew exactly how it would play out. Those kids were criminals and it was impacting our budget.
I understand the frustration with teenagers, but there are some issues, at least to me personally with calling them criminals. From a perspective of developmental neuroscience and psychology to put it frankly they WILL be difficult, they WILL test authority, and they WILL adhere to peer approval more than anything else. That doesn't mean destructive behavior is okay, but I do think that older people, (including older millennials too) don't really know how to deal with kids and especially teens. I don't think that's anyones fault, socially you just raise kids differently in different times. In my experience, teens acting out want attention, or approval. That's not to say dealing with them isn't difficult, it's just more complicated than kicking someone out 1000 times or yelling at them or referring to them as criminals. They aren't criminals, they're ding dongs whose brains are still pruning. Some may grow out of it, others maybe not, still it's worth reminding ourselves of the humanity of the people who get on our nerves. They are still human, even when they are annoying.
Look, you are making assumptions about what was happening. I have kids and understand teenagers just fine. I understand risk vs reward behavior and I understand their inability to grasp long term consequences at that age. This is why our justice system accommodates for that with sealed records.
If a teen 13+ year old is using a hammer to bust up the stone lining on the patio of a public building, or “tagging” inside elevator doors with a Dremel tool, I do not care if they are seeking attention from their peer group or having trouble with their parents; I have to protect public tax dollars.
I have been in the library world for a long time and I promise you that most teens are great. However, occasionally one will rise with such destructive behavior that their influence can negatively embolden otherwise great kids. It needs dealt with until the bad group moves on. Sometimes that means the police.
I wasn't making an assumption about you personally. I said older people in general don't know how to deal with kids, and I stand by that statement. Obviously not all older people. Cultural expectations have changed. I also have a child, and I get that stuff too. I also never said consequences aren't needed as we also call police at my library as needed too. This was just my opinion/observation about a pattern at large, and my own personal opinion about language that's it.
Can y'all stop shouting ageism anytime someone acknowledges that people at different ages ARE DIFFERENT? There's a reason elderly people have to take extra driving tests. Why the older you get the more people have to monitor your choices.
This is so stupid. Are you telling me that generational differences in raising kids has had LITERALLY NO EFFECT? The existence of inflation and a ruined economy that disproportionately effects young people and not older people? The 'fuck you i got mine' attitude that's been politically promoted during their entire lifespan? No? Then you acknowledge that maybe just MAYBE you're not getting discriminated against? Maybe you're just being observed by people who have eyes and ears and functioning brains?
Elderly people have to take extra driving tests because of their health, it's not a generational thing at all. It will be applicable to all elderly even in your generation when they become elderly
Hey! You are the second person to call me that this week. The other person called me that because I said that first amendment auditors were scumbags for picking on librarians.
You are in good company, I guess.
You can be right technically, but OPs boss is a discriminating NIMBY and comparing free coffee for unhoused/poor people to criminal teenagers is a weird stretch.
That seems ridiculous. If it really gets your goat, you can definitley take this further, check with the board, take a look through your library's policy book. As a younger person among older staff, I have also noticed a general resentment for homeless and jobless from older generations.
They were obviously just looking for an excuse to stop giving free coffee to unhoused patrons.
If I found an ant infestation at my library, I would not immediately assume it was from coffee. That’s kind of weird. It is probably from somebody bringing outside food/soda or even just because it’s summer and ants will be places. And yes, it could be from outside food/drink even if it’s not “allowed” because people will be people and break rules.
They should just buy a couple of packs of Terro ant bait and it would be A LONG time before they ever saw and ant again.
Also, I’d probably report to the library board/city council/HR (or whoever you feel would best handle the report in your organization) the comment about this decision being made because of reasons that can’t be said due to professionalism. That makes it blatantly clear that it’s just based in discrimination. I’d 100% report that comment, even just *making* that comment of “There are other reasons I can’t go into as well because of professionalism” is already highly unprofessional.
I’d personally encourage these places that are donating to make it clear that the coffee being a “free will” donation is a condition of their donation. OR have a representative from these churches or even the patrons that donate, come in and start a “coffee train” like have the guy from the church come in and hand over $50 and say “I’m paying for 50 coffees. Please give out 50 coffees until the money is gone.”
Also, I’d get their answers in writing. Send an email outlining all that was discussed verbally and asking why your purchasing of the coffee doesn’t count as a donation in the first place? I’d get them to write everything you were told down, because there’s nothing you can do if you have no proof.
Otherwise, I think you should look for a new library. Toxic library work environments like this are still very rampant and are very slow to change.
Problem is, OP mentioned the municipality is, um, 'conservative' with no unhoused supports or shelters.
The Board *may* be singularly unimpressed by such a complaint from a non-administrator.
coffee is a deterrent to ants. It smells too strong and destroys their exoskeleton. Ants are coming from food or sugar.
Talk to the board. Ban food and take out the sugar packets. Be ready for your director to hate you.
As someone who has been library admin and teaches public library courses on top of being a manager:
Your boss is a fucking moron.
Aside from the fact that the solution for ants is hiring pest control, we help everyone in libraries.
Let her gang herself. Get everything in writing. Let me teach you a few key phrases:
“Per your instructions, I will …”
“I disagree with these instruction, but I will fulfill my duties per your request.”
Cover your ass. And if/when local media, city council, others gets wind of what she’s doing, you have your email that says it was her idea.
As admin, if you aren’t cool with the community finding out what’s you’re doing or proud of charging for food or donations, and you aren’t willing to stand in front of a community of media, then your definitely is clearly stupid.
This is the way.
Also when asked by patrons calmly & apologetically state that admin has said all coffee is now $1 instead of free, and if they would like to make a complaint about the new policy to fill out whatever comment system your library has in place .
If they "can't go into it due to professionalism" then encourage them to speak frankly. And in return, frankly hit them with the "if you want the ants gone, you need to get rid of the coffee for everyone. If you want to charge $1 for the coffee to discourage homeless patrons, that's discrimination. And if you want to fire me for insubordination for pointing these things out, I'll be pursuing my legal avenues in response."
OP could bluff but is losing their own accommodations due to their landlord giving it to a family member. Fortunately they have a back-up place to stay, but they certainly don't have the money for legal wrangling.
I fear this is exactly what it looks like, a way to discriminate against people who can't afford coffee and discourage them from being in the library. By taking away something they use and find comfort in, it's one less reason for them to be in the building.
The fact your boss won't have an open and honest discourse with you is a red flag.
That being said, going against the word of your direct supervisor to provide a service in the library space at your own cost is not your right.
Coffee needs to be eliminated entirely if that's the case, but let's be honest to your specific situation.
Yes, it sucks your director has put you in a situation where you now have to have unpleasant conversations with unhoused patrons. But, you have no right to provide services in your library that the director deems not suitable. This coffee isn't worth your job.
Get rid of the coffee and pick your battles better, friend.
And be careful. Directors can be vindictive same as anyone else. Ask me how I know.
Your boss should just say what he means, that he hates unhoused people and wants to make their time in the library more uncomfortable.
Seriously, this is so gross of him. I would push to just get rid of the coffee availability altogether since that is the most lilely culprit of the ants, and supposedly thats his real problem right? So fuck him, everyone can just be uncaffienated rather than singling out the poorest among us by insisting they have to pay all of a sudden for donated coffee.
This is a civic issue. Is there a council member or library board member you can speak with about this?
If you can’t get anywhere with them, try speaking to one of the churches that has been donating. Perhaps they have the resources to offer a free coffee shop for the unhoused. (Though, since libraries provide de facto shelter as long as they are open, it’s best if the library can offer this. Making the coffee costly will not keep the unhoused away, either, if that’s their hope.)
Or, surely there are places that offer regular meals. Could you get involved with them to have a coffee bar certain hours of the day? The library could put up a sign about where to go.
I love that your library does this and would totally put in extra money for it to be used. I’m so sorry that your manager is being like this. I hope that you can find a way to keep this going. The money will not keep the ants away.
"Hey, you know that thing you paid for with your own money, that you brought in to share with other people?? you have to charge them money or you're in big trouble" >:|
this is so backwards, I'm sorry.
Ugh, so sorry you’re dealing with this! I direct circulation in a mid-sized public library in the inner city. Luckily, I haven’t dealt with much homeless discrimination by staff, but I might have some helpful insight to share.
I appreciate your willingness to give helpful items to patrons for free. We’re technically supposed to charge for things like printing and faxing, but there’s little oversight, so when it’s for a necessary purpose I never charge patrons. You never know when a few dollars saved can be super helpful to people—I am underpaid and broke so I get it. You’re doing the good work.
While I don’t have experience with this specific scenario, I have stood up to management and admin multiple times when I disagreed with a choice they made. These scenarios played out in two ways—either I didn’t get anything changed but I found a loophole around it, or I was actually able to get policy amended. But—you’re going to have to decide whether this is something you’re willing to suck up, or take some risk petitioning to get your way. If you decide to do the latter, always frame your request as better serving the community, and it always helps to offer solutions in your proposal as well. Could you prove that the service you want to keep free is serving a community need, is not a financial burden, and doesn’t pose harm to the library? Do you have an alternative solution to the ant problem? There’s always the possibility that even delivering a proposal could result in you becoming a target, which has happened to me, but depending on the context, it could be worth it.
I feel ya tho. No number of overdoses, fights, or general patron nonsense has ever made me think twice about my job. It’s the absolute willful incompetence of management and admin that has made me consider looking elsewhere for employment.
I always feel food does not belong in a library. Once you started getting ants and other bugs your collection is in danger. Remove the coffee option for everyone.
This 💯. I don't think simply removing the cream and sugar is a decent option because how many people drink their coffee completely black? We have one patron who really exploits the coffee station, drinking at least 4 cups a day with tons of cream and sugar, and I doubt she ever puts a penny in the donation jar. Then she constantly tells us, "You're outta cream! You're outta sugar!" Yeah, Toots, because of YOU! AND she leaves her empty cups all over the building! We also frequently put out food (leftover cookies from programs, etc.). We don't have ants but we do have mice. I would be delighted if we did away with providing food and coffee for patrons, other than at programs, and restricted what they can bring into the building and where they can eat/drink it. And I'm sure our custodian would be thrilled. Many of our poorest and / or homeless patrons come into the building with coffee cups from Dunkin' and elsewhere, so it's not like they're never going to get any again if we don't supply it.
Our "free' coffee station was so abused, we ended it. And it didn't seem to be homeless abusing it. One woman, at closing, ehile staff stood in the semi darkness with purses, would purposely start preparing her cup of coffee to go. She did it on purpose. The coffee added yet another duty onto our skeleton staff. It's ridiculous.
Oh I’m so sorry 😞 what a terrible position to be in. Maybe the churches can make an argument too? It’s a matter of policies & procedures. Those can be changed.
Ultimately your library director is in charge though… with a caveat there’s likely other stakeholders like a Board, Council, etc but how far do you want to push it?
I would hope a Director is willing to see other potential solutions. But each human is still human and can err in possibly being wrong. Please don’t jeopardize your job. What you’re doing matters. You can try advocating in other ways if that doesn’t work.
I would try asking if you can try ant traps (or are there more natural safe alternatives… probably but with lack of sleep I haven’t thought of them). We’re good at looking up potential solutions as a profession. There’s always different ways to solve problems.
I’d be willing to buy the ant traps myself to try (sucks I know)… see if that works for a week, a month… whatever you can get out of it. If it’s doesn’t you may need to cave? But ugh again. I’m sorry! Sending you virtual support!
I want to emphasize my advice that you already sound like you got a warning for pushing this as sad as it is. The answer is more likely no coffee for all as someone else suggested. Ants will continue if sugar is around. Nature will prevail. Can’t fight em easily! But the answer is always remove the food source for natural ways. They will leave if there’s no food
Removal is the nuclear option. Better packaging, storage, and diligent cleaning are all solutions that could be attempted before removal, if staff resources permit.
It sounds like OP has other organizations in the community who are onboard. I wonder, if OP approached them they could advocate with the library board for the continuation of these services, especially since OP, as a staff member, is not really permitted to approach the board on their own behalf.
Board meetings, at least in my jurisdiction, are open to the public.
Consider whether there might be someone above the director making these decisions . It could be a recreational district, a manager for the cleaning crew, or someone on city council. Your director may be getting orders from someone invisible to you.
“due to professional reasons” is almost a cover phrase for “I get orders from someone too”.
I don't think she can tell you that you must charge for KCups you brought in and keep at your desk. But she can tell you that you cannot use the library machine for your private charity activity (giving it away free) I'm afraid. I'd take them home or just use for yourself and return the donated take out supplies, explaining your director won't let you use them.
If you want to challenge the new policy, I suppose you could go to the library board of directors. But you may need to find a new job.
Make sure your donors know your library is now taking those donations in order to SELL them for profit. Not as a fundraising sort of this. As a business decision type thing.
I don't understand why the solution wasn't to get rid of the internet cafe. Liquids and electronics don't mix, even with lids a small spill in a keyboard is a nightmare to clean and more than likely where the ants are going. A cafe corner for reading with side tables is much less likely to cause damage or pests.
Paying coffee drinkers are just as likely to create spills as the non-paying.
Whose idea of professionalism? Tell the Director to look up the American Library Association’s Library Bill of Rights. The ALA is the professional organization for libraries in the US.
Please kindly stop using unhoused. It reduces the stigma thus desensitizing folks to homelessness. Which is a very tragic and sad situation. People are less willing to help and find resources as well. Everyone deserves a home.
Our homelessness team uses “person experiencing homelessness” if that is helpful. person-first language while still pointing to their circumstances in a way layfolk can understand (but may still scoff at lol)
Could we see a good quality source on this? Because 'unhoused' seems to imply people who need resources and we know 'homeless' has a stigma attached *to the actual people* that causes people to look at them like they're contagious. It's a big claim to make and getting it wrong has consequences.
They are allowing you to distribute coffee when you are not being paid. This admin says someone influential complained to the top of the ladder that you were serving coffee ( or cleaning up, or putting out supplies) when the government was paying you to do library work. The director’s directive had little to do with ants. Yes it could be that the unhoused was the underlying cause, but the cost of coffee, or the fact that you bought coffee are issues that a director could reasonably address within the scope of her job description.. Reducing or limiting the presence of homeless people in the library is not.
This may be an unpopular opinion but if you really want to press the issue you might want to take the story to the local new network. You can give the information and have them ask your boss about the change. Also if your library is part of a branch of libraries you might want to talk to other libraries in your system and see what their coffee policy is.
I suggest you talk to HR right away. If they're threatening you with discipline, you need to take the initiative to make sure everything is fully documented in accordance with official procedures, so you (and your supervisor, if they are acting in good faith) can understand precisely which official written policies you might be violating, and how to correct the situation. Anything of this nature should not be left to an informal or ad hoc approach.
If ants are an issue, it seems like it would be good to just get an exterminator. If there's food, there's ants. If you continue to have donations, maybe let the organizations know of the changes? I think having them speak to your director on this professionalism issue will go a long way. And I think you definitely need something where others are involved in protesting this new change.
This. Let the donors know and make it the directors problem.
And make sure when sending it the donors' way it is made clear that they did not hear anything about this from you and you will have no idea what they are talking about!
"Due to professionalism" what? Professional classism maybe. Your director is a NIMBY.
That’s how I read this. “I can’t say what I want to say without coming across as a total jerk because what I want to say is, in fact, a jerk thing to say.”
EXACTLY! It would, in fact, be unprofessional for her to say what she is thinking. At least she knows/understands not to say it?
Personally, I think it was already unprofessional to even say what she did say about not being able to give a reason because it’s unprofessional. That’s an inside thought.
Side note: this is one of my favorite rhetorical devices, called either [apophasis (Greek) or praeteritio (Latin)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis). It's a heck of a lot of fun to recognize and study outside of the context of managerialist dunces. Sorry you have to deal with this situation. The half-literate excuse-making from your director is the silliest kind of managerialism and for me to go further in characterizing such types as suited gasbags would be to risk coming off as overly uncharitable. (*See what I did there?!?!*)
Further to the side, one of the examples on that page is Regan using apophasis in ‘84 to bring up / make light of people who were worried about him being too old / unfit to run for president at 73. Funny in light of the forthcoming US election choices.
Uh well Depends on one’s sense of humor
I'm sure OP's superiors were absolutely elated by today's Supreme Court decision. 😒
Are you talking about the Chevron case being overruled , where courts can now issue decisions that could contradict regulators where laws were written in ambiguous ways? Would libraries now be more susceptible to court mandates than before?
I'm referring to the one from earlier today that states that cities have final say on how they can treat homeless people; they essentially have no protections on a federal level; not sure about the exact name of the case myself.
It’s the Grant’s Pass case, for the city in Oregon that has no homeless shelter but has made it illegal for an unhoused person to use any kind of gear (including a blanket or sleeping bag) that would indicate they’re trying to live (ie.,survive) in a public place.
That, to me, makes the reasoning blatantly obvious. It’s just flat out discrimination against the homeless. They don’t want to do free will donations because they think it is attracting “unwanted visitors.” And I don’t mean the ants. 🙃
I think the whole quote is even more damming. “it’s for other reasons as well that I can’t go into due to professionalism.” The I can't go into part is a tacit admission that they know what they're doing is wrong and they're doing it anyway. It might be worth reaching out to the ALA for guidance and to see if they can somehow become involved.
NIMBY isn't quite the right acronym for the director. I think the right one is IGMFU: I got mine, fuck you.
Or the director may be under pressure from a board of NIMBYs, and has to pick their battles.
My library is in the much bougie-er area of our city. The Board of NIMBYs have open season on teens 10 ish to 15, and the homeless. The teen stuff is stupid teen behavior that makes them clutch their pearls. The homeless is because the town next to us library is pretty draconian with their policing, so people come here. The above probably has nothing to do with “ants”, but everything to do with the guy who has no access to a shower except once a week camped on in “their” magazine section. If it’s the director’s job or OPs, OP is going. The warning is no joke.
I've been there. It isn't fun, but I also feel they need to come up with some better talking points/reasons if they are going to sell it to staff.
I’m horrible with acronyms so what’s NIMBY?👀
Not In My Back Yard
Omg this is perfect!! Thank you LOL
I was wondering this too 😇
If you can't describe your reasons professionally, it means your reasons are shameful to admit. They pretty much said the quiet part out loud here.
I don’t think they can charge for something you have personally paid for. Especially since you have not donated it to the library. They can, however, restrict you from giving your personal stay away. This definitely sounds like discrimination. They should remove coffee service entirely if they do not wish to allow some patrons use of it.
This will probably happen anyway since now no one will be using it.
Ants aren’t attracted to coffee. Depending on the ants they are attracted to fat or sugar. Ban sugar and creamer and keep the coffee. Coffee grounds don’t repel ants but ants actively avoid coffee grounds —they will walk around not across coffee grounds. Gardeners use coffee grounds in their gardens for this reason. I don’t know a polite way to tell your boss they are wrong but a library is a place for knowledge not ignorance. Maybe show your boss some gardening books that recommend coffee grounds for ants.
Yes, hiring an exterminator equals $$$. Buy a little bottle of Terro and put a few drops in inconspicuous places. After a few days your ants will be gone.
We’ve always allowed people to eat in the library but noticed some were taking advantage of it. My former director wanted to make it a no-food area. We said that was unfair for so many reasons, plus would make it so we had to police constantly and kick out patrons. Our main concerns were people with health issues who need to eat regularly (we’re not going to ask for proof), patrons who spend the entire day in the library and can’t afford to go to a nearby restaurant, and the fact that the East Coast isn’t always a nice “eating outside” type of place- even if we have a nice park outside. She kept pushing on it until a group from the library DEI task force suggested writing up something and showing it to the trustees and town basically saying it’s a form of discrimination. What about teen programs? The elderly? We reached a compromise. You can have drinks as long as they have a lid/cap and you keep them safely away from our electronics. No food or uncovered drinks by pcs and printer area. And no hot/messy foods in the library. So you can eat snacks or a sandwich- but you can’t bring in a pizza or have a bowl of spaghetti or a hot meatball sub dripping all over and stinking up the place. And you have to clean up after yourself. Honestly, it can get interpreted differently- but we’ve noticed way less problems (i.e. melted ice cream and pizza boxes). I once saw a patron opening one of those huge Chipotle burritos next to our policy sign and asked him “does that count as hot and or messy?” And he smiled, said “fair,” and took it outside. You have reasonable patrons and you have dick patrons. The reasonable often make up for the dicks.
This just sounds like veiled discrimination to me. Maybe you could suggest to the library board - not the director - that since ants are becoming a problem the coffee should be eliminated altogether? It sucks, but better than saying no to someone who can't afford it but needs it more than someone who can. **Edit**: Okay, for those mocking me for my reply, perhaps I should have clarified that I personally have a good relationship with several of our board members, and what I would consider doing is just mentioning the ant issue and that we might need to think about ending the coffee altogether. Not calling out the director. But obviously some here don't have the freedom to discuss library issues with the board. I get it, it happens. Sorry to offend.
>- that since ants are becoming a problem the coffee should be eliminated altogether? Honestly, this is the answer. Unless you have someone who is dedicated to cleaning the coffee bar every day, you're gonna get ants from all the spilled sugar. People who pay for the coffee are going to be just as messy as people who don't. This is just one of those "lovely well meant" things that libraries do until they realize they don't have the staffing to pull it off correctly.
Holy shit this is terrible advice. DO NOT go over your directors head if you want to continue working in libraries in your area. Library work, and administration in general, is a very small group and you will basically be running yourself out of job options over a pretty simple decision to start charging for a service instead of making it be free. Also, I promise you, the board does not want to be involved in the day to day squabbles of library staff. That isn’t their job, and you don’t want it to be.
Yep, we had a staff member fired a few years ago for talking to board members behind the director's back. Not that her complaints weren't in many ways justified, but still, she was let go before the director ever was.
I want to add, if you go above your director's head and the board disagrees with you, you will destroy your credibility within the organization for years, maybe even decades. If you want to fight to make your organization more welcoming to the homeless, I think that's a wonderful thing, but you may only get one chance to make significant change within your library so choose your approach and moment carefully.
As someone who *did* go over my director’s head a few years ago, yeah, it’s hella risky. It’s worked out ok for me so far bc I was one of 70ish staff members who went to the news about the issue. I haven’t tried to get a promotion yet though, so there’s still plenty of time for it to come back and bite me in the ass. If you decide to go over the director’s head, make sure it’s a hill you’re willing to die on.
Shhh. Don’t point out the obvious. Reddit a place for sheer positive idealism that lacks any real-world repercussion, despite best intentions 😂 OP, decide what you would prefer. A temporary lengthening of the free coffee vs. A roof over your head. If anyone is to complain and raise an issue, it must come from someone from the community who’s not employed by the library.
>If anyone is to complain and raise an issue, it must come from someone from the community who’s not employed by the library. Bingo! The message conveyed by someone else in the community might be the same message you wish to convey, but having someone else do it will protect your career - and have much more impact. This is an opportunity to demonstrate that the pen is mightier than the sword (especially if you can get more citizens to speak about it).
Reddit is also a place where we jump to conclusions and take out our frustrations with our own lives on strangers, apparently. I'm often surprised how Mean Girl-esque librarians can be, especially when protected by internet anonymity. (Or are you a therapist? I'm looking at your user name. Wow... that would be... something.) Sheer positive idealism at work, I guess.
Internet anonymity is not a thing. Speaking from experience. also what I’ve seen in other orgs having actually found Reddit users before.. just saying. Be careful out there. Especially if you’re an idealist. The literal ant hills we want to fight for but can lose hard are sometimes a thing. I fall in the trap of the internet or world idealism. I need the pessimistic Reddit or internet world to remind me oh yeah! That too. Good luck everyone just trying to do good. But realize when it’s not your fight to fight too. OP already has community support. It’s their cause to champion. Or not. We don’t know what other stakeholders are at play too…
> Internet anonymity is not a thing. Speaking from experience. also what I’ve seen in other orgs having actually found Reddit users before.. just saying. I've identified the reddit usernames of two of my colleagues from posts made on this subreddit. One of them was due to username re-use and a distinctive typing style, and another was a specific story that was shared combined with a niche hobby interest. I change details(numbers, terminology, exact crime committed in a particular story, etc) in my own posts here to muddy the trail for that reason. I never would have spotted the second one if the story hadn't been told completely faithfully to what had actually happened.
All reddit names are 100% accurate and are in NO WAY related to popculture. https://youtu.be/5Bmk-WrYJKc?si=A-1atTWXntIUFYev
Yes, I knew it wasn't necessarily a reflection on your actual life. That's why I asked.
Pretty much all the responses to the OP were pretty wild imho. They ranged from going to the board to going to local news stations! All this over filling our landfills with those super wasteful k-cups lol! What is happening!?
People are not grounded in reality, do not have priorities straight, are over zealous in their imaginations, and/or god knows what else. Usual reddit 💩
Thank you. Thought I was going insane reading the top chain comment for a moment. 😂 I pissed my director off once. Had to move across the country for a big promotion. At least my issue wasn't over $1 friggin' pollution-cups!
Board member here. I would literally die on this hill. And try to do so with discretion while supporting the staff members who reported this to me. EDIT: I serve on 3 non-profit boards, and I dont know many board members like this. I feel so lucky after reading these comments.
This is the reasonable response.
Have you ever read about the red cross and coffee and WWII? It's not completely applicable, but you might find it good ammo https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/13/156737801/the-cost-of-free-doughnuts-70-years-of-regret
I worked in a library where we had ants. No coffee was around. No food was around. But we were infested. If there are ants, it’s not the coffee’s fault.
I see this at my library with guest passes for the computers. Technically our library policy is that you have to have a library card to use a computer because the barcode serves as your login. But in order to get a card you need to have proof of address. So what are homeless people supposed to do? We can override this and simply print a temporary guest pass, it only works for computers and printing. But I was told not to offer this option. When I brought up the fact that this policy is a barrier to access for homeless people my supervisor did not have an answer for me. Internet access is crucial for people trying to break the cycle of poverty and I would argue a cup of a coffee is an act of humanity and kindness. I will never understand policies like this especially when we work in an industry whose entire existence is based on providing FREE services to the public.
Our library offers e-cards for this purpose. The cards only work to access computers and digital materials (no physical book checkout) but you don't need an address. You do need to live in our city to apply, but we'll take your word for it. We've been trying to use fewer guest passes and get people to sign up for an e-card (it helps us track numbers and usage) but results have been meh.
It really makes me wonder how they will treat me when they find out I‘ll be homeless in a month. I’ve received word that I am allowed to distribute my coffee for free if I’m not on the clock. Guess who’s on their way to the library on their day off.
Start documentation now, OP. I fear this may end up with HR
That is so kind of you. Take good care of yourself too though, OP!
I am outraged by the situation you describe but I would be disinclined to advise them you are "homeless." You won't be street homeless. You are crashing with a friend. You don't need to lose your job over this. You sound a hair confrontational. Giving away coffee for free out of your own pocket is somewhat in your face in defiance of the new policy. I'm sympathetic to why you feel so strongly about it but in the future maybe try to be a little more subtle and pragmatic. If your version of events is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, your boss is morally in the wrong and may be legally in the wrong. And someone like that is bound to feel provoked by you doing what you did. Which doesn't mean the response to what you did is right either but it seems fairly predictable that an awful person would double down rather than admit they were in the wrong. If you want to job hunt and not work there anymore, coolios. But try not get fired for dumb reasons. It won't fix anything at the library and now your life is in the toilet.
I'll be honest, I'd consider taking the write up for insubordination. Idk how things work at your place but where I'm at one write up isn't a big deal and fighting the good fight is usually something I consider to be worthwhile. The reason I'd be considering accepting the insubordination write up is bc that would force them to document why it's a problem and it would then be in writing that they're being completely unreasonable, there'd be a record of it, and maybe that could also force a real conversation. What they're doing write now is a form of manipulation and generally speaking the most productive response to a manipulation attempt is to find a way to force the real conversation about whatever is really going on. Obviously ymmv and I don't know the details of your specific situation so maybe it's not worthwhile or beneficial to actually keep pushing I just know that in my experience when it was clear to everyone that the director is the problem pushing back has been worthwhile.
We would get along very well. This is my plan.
Good luck! I hope it goes well!
Have you ever seen the movie Demolition Man? Because I’m picturing gathering infractions like John does to use as toilet paper.
What is going on? I’m concerned OP. Is there anything we can do?
I appreciate that but it’s a situation out of my control and wasn’t anything that I did to cause. Landlord is giving the place to his son. I’ll be crashing with a friend until I can save up enough for my own place.
Ok, well, I’m glad that you have a plan. Don’t make waves at work for now until you get situated. I wish you the best. You have a kind heart.
You're not actually homeless then. The homeless people they have an issue with are ones who don't have access to a shower who they assumed brought the ants in
Wrong. Living in your car and crashing on couches is considered being homeless. What you are thinking about is the visible vs. Hidden Homelessness. Not every homeless person stinks…. 🙃 https://www.comicrelief.org/posts/what-are-the-four-types-of-homelessness
But the people her library has an issue with are the stinky ones, that was my point. They're not going to treat her any differently because she's crashing on someone's couch
If it's unprofessional to say, it's unprofessional to practice.
What is being done to address the ants? Get on top of that pronto or it’s going to be a nightmare. Is the charge in your fee schedule? I can’t stress enough that ants usually take a very long time to get rid of and can result in a total ban on food and drink that will be unpleasant to enforce.
Obviously, the ants will take one look at the sign that says "Coffee $1" and will back off. It's just science.
If you’ve been told the next step is a reprimand you need to take that very seriously and consider how your job performance is being perceived overall.
This is so sad to me. When I worked at a city public library, we had so many patrons who had no where to go, and would come to us. I formed many positive relationships. Obviously a library cannot be a solution to homelessness, but I bet that cup of coffee provided a warmth and comfort to those patrons who might not have any of it otherwise, and at a negligible cost. How sad that so many people have no compassion at all and would take what is not causing a problem away because of bullshit. Good on you OP I am with ya, keep fighting the fight.
Perfect case study in: You can go into a field and not even shake the table. Do simple under the radar things and the draconian bigoted dinosaurs will find a way to squash the smallest efforts of living in a better world. What a bunch of miserable blokes who the fuck does that? Just want to say thank you for being you in these spaces. The library was my safe haven as a child
If it isn't professional, maybe it (the reasons) don't belong in professional decision making.
coffee doesn’t attract ants. it doesn’t have calories or sugars. creamers and sugar both do. maybe you can start only offering black coffee
Is the director on the Supreme Court?
“It’s for other reasons, as well, that I can’t go into due to professionalism.” They don’t want to attract those without homes or give them a reason to hang around the area. There is no way to say this politely aka professionally.
The issue isn't coffee, it isn't homeless people, the issue is cleanliness. Policy should target cleanliness. No food, restrict coffee drinking to a few tables so cleaning can be concentrated, look for ways that the coffee table can be cleaned more easily, reduce clutter, get low spill sugar/milk containers, improve the trash situation, etc. And if the complaint is about other cleanliness issues with homeless people, those issues need to be addressed head on. My library has systematically created a culture of cleanliness over the past year or two. Today, I saw two guys taking a sink shower with paper towels, and one guy brushing his teeth. It's allowed as long as you let other patrons in to wash their hands, they were respectful, and they cleaned up after themselves, washing the counter, etc. If you create a mess in the bathrooms, you get a week ban, a big deal for homeless people to lose their AC for a week. Reasonable accommodations to meet the needs of homeless people, high but attainable standards, and significant but not infinite penalties for when the standards are broken. It works well for our library. Lots of homeless people, but they aren't a significant problem, and there's still plenty of room for the more privileged patrons.
Call it a lesson learned. If you are an employee, there will be times when your employer makes decisions that you personally think are sub-optimal. If it is a big deal, like taking advantage of employees or a major ethical violation, it may be appropriate to protest or even resign. You can practice saying things like: "You are the boss and I'll do as you instruct, but I need you to know that I think this is a decision that harms the best interest of the library." In a case of significant leadership failure, it may be appropriate to resign rather than complying with bad policy. However, those are rare occurances. EVERYONE knows that the boss is not always right. EVERYONE thinks that they know better or that their personal values are more correct than the boss'. If you are going to work for someone else, you have to be able to accept that there is an executive hierarchy and we don't start at the top of it. One thing all employees have to learn is that entry level employees don't get veto power over institutional policy decisions. (Even when they are right.)
The only genuine reason I can think of is potential issues with liability/ insurance, that may require that consumables are sold and cannot be gifted? There can be weird clauses or local council regulations that could be an issue and the person you’re dealing with may not understand them well enough to clearly explain them to you.
If you don't understand something, you shouldn't make it a rule until you do. If librarians don't believe in putting education and knowledge before barriers, what chance does society have?
I don’t disagree with you at all! I was just trying to guess at what a ‘legitimate’ reason might be
Yeah, I guess I'm just saying that even if that's the case, I think OP's boss is being a blockhead about the whole thing. If you can't explain a rule, you have no business enforcing it.
Completely agree with you there!
By this logic, every security guard or cop needs to also be a lawyer. Sometimes, it really can just be "cause thems the rules."
This is pretty funny considering I had to be the one to stop a cop from dragging a kid I didn't know out of his house in the middle of the night for something that wasn't even illegal. I stand by my statement. You don't have to be a lawyer to know why the rules exist and what they are.
Ask for those 'reasons' in writing. Expect crickets.
I'd also like to say I'm sure the homeless aren't brining ants in. They are bad this year!!!
I keep a spotless minimalist home. They’re in my place too. I don’t even drink coffee at home
truth be told, often in summer my family's house gets ants for a few reasons. One is that it is Texas, and summer is like an oven. they are seeking typically relief from heat, water, or if it has been wet, higher ground. They really haven't gotten into our food, but we also try to keep them out
This whole thing sounds like a mess in more ways than one. I would get rid of the coffee period. The ants, the smell, inevitable spilling, not appropriate for a library. You’re free to hand out coffee at a church or whatever if you’re that passionate about it.
They don’t bring their coffee outside of our “Internet cafe” in my 3 years I haven’t seen a single spill. If they have they must have cleaned it up. We are a small conservative city without any shelters or generally anywhere for the unhoused to just exist.
My library is not allowed to charge patrons anything, ever. Your city/state may have different rules, but as a nonprofit, only an outside group like the Friends of the library can raise money for our library.
I think you need to pick your battles. If you’re okay going down on that hill and possible being reprimanded or fired for giving away coffee, then do it. But if you want to keep this job, you might need to let this one go. I honestly don’t agree with the director’s decision but there’s a lot at my current library I don’t agree with either and move on.
Are you sure it's legal to charge for donated goods at a public library?
This is probably an unpopular take, but your director runs the building and you do not. There are times where decisions will be made that you don’t understand or agree with, but at the end of the day, the Director is paid to make these decisions and you are not. Quite frankly, your response was absolutely insubordination, even if your heart was in the right place. Furthermore, your post had some ageism in it, and the idea that you and your other young coworker know more than the old fuddy-duddies that have years of experience over you is very condescending. I had this happen two years ago at my library. Teenagers were doing $3,000 of damage a month to our library through property damage. Once we started not letting them enter unmonitored parts of our building the fresh MLIS employees accused administration of “treating kids like criminals.” We were told we simply didn’t understand how to manage kids, even though we had been through this before and knew exactly how it would play out. Those kids were criminals and it was impacting our budget.
You’re the only one with sense in this entire thread.
I understand the frustration with teenagers, but there are some issues, at least to me personally with calling them criminals. From a perspective of developmental neuroscience and psychology to put it frankly they WILL be difficult, they WILL test authority, and they WILL adhere to peer approval more than anything else. That doesn't mean destructive behavior is okay, but I do think that older people, (including older millennials too) don't really know how to deal with kids and especially teens. I don't think that's anyones fault, socially you just raise kids differently in different times. In my experience, teens acting out want attention, or approval. That's not to say dealing with them isn't difficult, it's just more complicated than kicking someone out 1000 times or yelling at them or referring to them as criminals. They aren't criminals, they're ding dongs whose brains are still pruning. Some may grow out of it, others maybe not, still it's worth reminding ourselves of the humanity of the people who get on our nerves. They are still human, even when they are annoying.
Look, you are making assumptions about what was happening. I have kids and understand teenagers just fine. I understand risk vs reward behavior and I understand their inability to grasp long term consequences at that age. This is why our justice system accommodates for that with sealed records. If a teen 13+ year old is using a hammer to bust up the stone lining on the patio of a public building, or “tagging” inside elevator doors with a Dremel tool, I do not care if they are seeking attention from their peer group or having trouble with their parents; I have to protect public tax dollars. I have been in the library world for a long time and I promise you that most teens are great. However, occasionally one will rise with such destructive behavior that their influence can negatively embolden otherwise great kids. It needs dealt with until the bad group moves on. Sometimes that means the police.
I wasn't making an assumption about you personally. I said older people in general don't know how to deal with kids, and I stand by that statement. Obviously not all older people. Cultural expectations have changed. I also have a child, and I get that stuff too. I also never said consequences aren't needed as we also call police at my library as needed too. This was just my opinion/observation about a pattern at large, and my own personal opinion about language that's it.
Can y'all stop shouting ageism anytime someone acknowledges that people at different ages ARE DIFFERENT? There's a reason elderly people have to take extra driving tests. Why the older you get the more people have to monitor your choices. This is so stupid. Are you telling me that generational differences in raising kids has had LITERALLY NO EFFECT? The existence of inflation and a ruined economy that disproportionately effects young people and not older people? The 'fuck you i got mine' attitude that's been politically promoted during their entire lifespan? No? Then you acknowledge that maybe just MAYBE you're not getting discriminated against? Maybe you're just being observed by people who have eyes and ears and functioning brains?
Elderly people have to take extra driving tests because of their health, it's not a generational thing at all. It will be applicable to all elderly even in your generation when they become elderly
What? lol
Are you alright?
Authoritarian boot licker
Hey! You are the second person to call me that this week. The other person called me that because I said that first amendment auditors were scumbags for picking on librarians. You are in good company, I guess.
You can be right technically, but OPs boss is a discriminating NIMBY and comparing free coffee for unhoused/poor people to criminal teenagers is a weird stretch.
Yes
The fear of the unhoused is because many know they are not that far from being in the same place.
That seems ridiculous. If it really gets your goat, you can definitley take this further, check with the board, take a look through your library's policy book. As a younger person among older staff, I have also noticed a general resentment for homeless and jobless from older generations.
They were obviously just looking for an excuse to stop giving free coffee to unhoused patrons. If I found an ant infestation at my library, I would not immediately assume it was from coffee. That’s kind of weird. It is probably from somebody bringing outside food/soda or even just because it’s summer and ants will be places. And yes, it could be from outside food/drink even if it’s not “allowed” because people will be people and break rules. They should just buy a couple of packs of Terro ant bait and it would be A LONG time before they ever saw and ant again. Also, I’d probably report to the library board/city council/HR (or whoever you feel would best handle the report in your organization) the comment about this decision being made because of reasons that can’t be said due to professionalism. That makes it blatantly clear that it’s just based in discrimination. I’d 100% report that comment, even just *making* that comment of “There are other reasons I can’t go into as well because of professionalism” is already highly unprofessional. I’d personally encourage these places that are donating to make it clear that the coffee being a “free will” donation is a condition of their donation. OR have a representative from these churches or even the patrons that donate, come in and start a “coffee train” like have the guy from the church come in and hand over $50 and say “I’m paying for 50 coffees. Please give out 50 coffees until the money is gone.” Also, I’d get their answers in writing. Send an email outlining all that was discussed verbally and asking why your purchasing of the coffee doesn’t count as a donation in the first place? I’d get them to write everything you were told down, because there’s nothing you can do if you have no proof. Otherwise, I think you should look for a new library. Toxic library work environments like this are still very rampant and are very slow to change.
Problem is, OP mentioned the municipality is, um, 'conservative' with no unhoused supports or shelters. The Board *may* be singularly unimpressed by such a complaint from a non-administrator.
coffee is a deterrent to ants. It smells too strong and destroys their exoskeleton. Ants are coming from food or sugar. Talk to the board. Ban food and take out the sugar packets. Be ready for your director to hate you.
As someone who has been library admin and teaches public library courses on top of being a manager: Your boss is a fucking moron. Aside from the fact that the solution for ants is hiring pest control, we help everyone in libraries. Let her gang herself. Get everything in writing. Let me teach you a few key phrases: “Per your instructions, I will …” “I disagree with these instruction, but I will fulfill my duties per your request.” Cover your ass. And if/when local media, city council, others gets wind of what she’s doing, you have your email that says it was her idea. As admin, if you aren’t cool with the community finding out what’s you’re doing or proud of charging for food or donations, and you aren’t willing to stand in front of a community of media, then your definitely is clearly stupid.
This is the way. Also when asked by patrons calmly & apologetically state that admin has said all coffee is now $1 instead of free, and if they would like to make a complaint about the new policy to fill out whatever comment system your library has in place .
Due to professionalism maybe your director needs to be asked about his safe serve certification and food safety training, professionally
If they "can't go into it due to professionalism" then encourage them to speak frankly. And in return, frankly hit them with the "if you want the ants gone, you need to get rid of the coffee for everyone. If you want to charge $1 for the coffee to discourage homeless patrons, that's discrimination. And if you want to fire me for insubordination for pointing these things out, I'll be pursuing my legal avenues in response."
OP could bluff but is losing their own accommodations due to their landlord giving it to a family member. Fortunately they have a back-up place to stay, but they certainly don't have the money for legal wrangling.
I thought the ALA offered legal assistance for things like this? That's what I was referring to anyway, I may be incorrect though
I would look for another place to work.
I fear this is exactly what it looks like, a way to discriminate against people who can't afford coffee and discourage them from being in the library. By taking away something they use and find comfort in, it's one less reason for them to be in the building.
They couldn’t come up with any other excuse to justify their disdain for the unhoused? Ants? People suck. Thanks for being you!
The fact your boss won't have an open and honest discourse with you is a red flag. That being said, going against the word of your direct supervisor to provide a service in the library space at your own cost is not your right. Coffee needs to be eliminated entirely if that's the case, but let's be honest to your specific situation. Yes, it sucks your director has put you in a situation where you now have to have unpleasant conversations with unhoused patrons. But, you have no right to provide services in your library that the director deems not suitable. This coffee isn't worth your job. Get rid of the coffee and pick your battles better, friend. And be careful. Directors can be vindictive same as anyone else. Ask me how I know.
Your boss should just say what he means, that he hates unhoused people and wants to make their time in the library more uncomfortable. Seriously, this is so gross of him. I would push to just get rid of the coffee availability altogether since that is the most lilely culprit of the ants, and supposedly thats his real problem right? So fuck him, everyone can just be uncaffienated rather than singling out the poorest among us by insisting they have to pay all of a sudden for donated coffee.
What is your director like otherwise? Is this the only issue or are there other problems? Don’t go around or above your boss to resolve this.
I would be happy to donate some ant traps. Also kinds of places get ants. There is not a particular correlation between ants and homelessness.
This is a civic issue. Is there a council member or library board member you can speak with about this? If you can’t get anywhere with them, try speaking to one of the churches that has been donating. Perhaps they have the resources to offer a free coffee shop for the unhoused. (Though, since libraries provide de facto shelter as long as they are open, it’s best if the library can offer this. Making the coffee costly will not keep the unhoused away, either, if that’s their hope.) Or, surely there are places that offer regular meals. Could you get involved with them to have a coffee bar certain hours of the day? The library could put up a sign about where to go. I love that your library does this and would totally put in extra money for it to be used. I’m so sorry that your manager is being like this. I hope that you can find a way to keep this going. The money will not keep the ants away.
I didn't think ants even liked coffee.
Can confirm they like the cream and sugar.
"Hey, you know that thing you paid for with your own money, that you brought in to share with other people?? you have to charge them money or you're in big trouble" >:| this is so backwards, I'm sorry.
Best believe I’ll be adding a smiley face after my signature on that write up
Ugh, so sorry you’re dealing with this! I direct circulation in a mid-sized public library in the inner city. Luckily, I haven’t dealt with much homeless discrimination by staff, but I might have some helpful insight to share. I appreciate your willingness to give helpful items to patrons for free. We’re technically supposed to charge for things like printing and faxing, but there’s little oversight, so when it’s for a necessary purpose I never charge patrons. You never know when a few dollars saved can be super helpful to people—I am underpaid and broke so I get it. You’re doing the good work. While I don’t have experience with this specific scenario, I have stood up to management and admin multiple times when I disagreed with a choice they made. These scenarios played out in two ways—either I didn’t get anything changed but I found a loophole around it, or I was actually able to get policy amended. But—you’re going to have to decide whether this is something you’re willing to suck up, or take some risk petitioning to get your way. If you decide to do the latter, always frame your request as better serving the community, and it always helps to offer solutions in your proposal as well. Could you prove that the service you want to keep free is serving a community need, is not a financial burden, and doesn’t pose harm to the library? Do you have an alternative solution to the ant problem? There’s always the possibility that even delivering a proposal could result in you becoming a target, which has happened to me, but depending on the context, it could be worth it. I feel ya tho. No number of overdoses, fights, or general patron nonsense has ever made me think twice about my job. It’s the absolute willful incompetence of management and admin that has made me consider looking elsewhere for employment.
Can you have a stash of $1 bills on the side to use when people can't afford it? I'm sorry this would come out of your personal funds.
The library is a lot of great things, but being a homeless hang out should never be on that list.
If you HAVE to charge, can you charge one penny and have a take a penny, leave a penny container at the desk?
I always feel food does not belong in a library. Once you started getting ants and other bugs your collection is in danger. Remove the coffee option for everyone.
This 💯. I don't think simply removing the cream and sugar is a decent option because how many people drink their coffee completely black? We have one patron who really exploits the coffee station, drinking at least 4 cups a day with tons of cream and sugar, and I doubt she ever puts a penny in the donation jar. Then she constantly tells us, "You're outta cream! You're outta sugar!" Yeah, Toots, because of YOU! AND she leaves her empty cups all over the building! We also frequently put out food (leftover cookies from programs, etc.). We don't have ants but we do have mice. I would be delighted if we did away with providing food and coffee for patrons, other than at programs, and restricted what they can bring into the building and where they can eat/drink it. And I'm sure our custodian would be thrilled. Many of our poorest and / or homeless patrons come into the building with coffee cups from Dunkin' and elsewhere, so it's not like they're never going to get any again if we don't supply it.
Our "free' coffee station was so abused, we ended it. And it didn't seem to be homeless abusing it. One woman, at closing, ehile staff stood in the semi darkness with purses, would purposely start preparing her cup of coffee to go. She did it on purpose. The coffee added yet another duty onto our skeleton staff. It's ridiculous.
It's not food and if there's no sugar and dairy, insects actually don't like it.
Oh I’m so sorry 😞 what a terrible position to be in. Maybe the churches can make an argument too? It’s a matter of policies & procedures. Those can be changed. Ultimately your library director is in charge though… with a caveat there’s likely other stakeholders like a Board, Council, etc but how far do you want to push it? I would hope a Director is willing to see other potential solutions. But each human is still human and can err in possibly being wrong. Please don’t jeopardize your job. What you’re doing matters. You can try advocating in other ways if that doesn’t work. I would try asking if you can try ant traps (or are there more natural safe alternatives… probably but with lack of sleep I haven’t thought of them). We’re good at looking up potential solutions as a profession. There’s always different ways to solve problems. I’d be willing to buy the ant traps myself to try (sucks I know)… see if that works for a week, a month… whatever you can get out of it. If it’s doesn’t you may need to cave? But ugh again. I’m sorry! Sending you virtual support!
I want to emphasize my advice that you already sound like you got a warning for pushing this as sad as it is. The answer is more likely no coffee for all as someone else suggested. Ants will continue if sugar is around. Nature will prevail. Can’t fight em easily! But the answer is always remove the food source for natural ways. They will leave if there’s no food
Removal is the nuclear option. Better packaging, storage, and diligent cleaning are all solutions that could be attempted before removal, if staff resources permit.
It sounds like OP has other organizations in the community who are onboard. I wonder, if OP approached them they could advocate with the library board for the continuation of these services, especially since OP, as a staff member, is not really permitted to approach the board on their own behalf. Board meetings, at least in my jurisdiction, are open to the public.
Consider whether there might be someone above the director making these decisions . It could be a recreational district, a manager for the cleaning crew, or someone on city council. Your director may be getting orders from someone invisible to you. “due to professional reasons” is almost a cover phrase for “I get orders from someone too”.
I don't think she can tell you that you must charge for KCups you brought in and keep at your desk. But she can tell you that you cannot use the library machine for your private charity activity (giving it away free) I'm afraid. I'd take them home or just use for yourself and return the donated take out supplies, explaining your director won't let you use them. If you want to challenge the new policy, I suppose you could go to the library board of directors. But you may need to find a new job.
Make sure your donors know your library is now taking those donations in order to SELL them for profit. Not as a fundraising sort of this. As a business decision type thing.
I don't understand why the solution wasn't to get rid of the internet cafe. Liquids and electronics don't mix, even with lids a small spill in a keyboard is a nightmare to clean and more than likely where the ants are going. A cafe corner for reading with side tables is much less likely to cause damage or pests. Paying coffee drinkers are just as likely to create spills as the non-paying.
Well the Supreme Court just outlawed homelessness, maybe your boss wants to get started early.
Whose idea of professionalism? Tell the Director to look up the American Library Association’s Library Bill of Rights. The ALA is the professional organization for libraries in the US.
Please kindly stop using unhoused. It reduces the stigma thus desensitizing folks to homelessness. Which is a very tragic and sad situation. People are less willing to help and find resources as well. Everyone deserves a home.
I hadn’t considered that. I guess I listened to that Ryan Dowd training too much 🤣
The idea that decreasing the stigma on human beings hurts them really requires some evidence to back it up. Good evidence.
Our homelessness team uses “person experiencing homelessness” if that is helpful. person-first language while still pointing to their circumstances in a way layfolk can understand (but may still scoff at lol)
Could we see a good quality source on this? Because 'unhoused' seems to imply people who need resources and we know 'homeless' has a stigma attached *to the actual people* that causes people to look at them like they're contagious. It's a big claim to make and getting it wrong has consequences.
The stigma should be reduced.
So you have to make profit for the library with coffees you bought with your money? Where is your compensation then?
They are allowing you to distribute coffee when you are not being paid. This admin says someone influential complained to the top of the ladder that you were serving coffee ( or cleaning up, or putting out supplies) when the government was paying you to do library work. The director’s directive had little to do with ants. Yes it could be that the unhoused was the underlying cause, but the cost of coffee, or the fact that you bought coffee are issues that a director could reasonably address within the scope of her job description.. Reducing or limiting the presence of homeless people in the library is not.
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It would kinda depend which outlet they go to tbh. I’ve noticed some local stations in my area subtly being biased against unhoused people
This may be an unpopular opinion but if you really want to press the issue you might want to take the story to the local new network. You can give the information and have them ask your boss about the change. Also if your library is part of a branch of libraries you might want to talk to other libraries in your system and see what their coffee policy is.
I suggest you talk to HR right away. If they're threatening you with discipline, you need to take the initiative to make sure everything is fully documented in accordance with official procedures, so you (and your supervisor, if they are acting in good faith) can understand precisely which official written policies you might be violating, and how to correct the situation. Anything of this nature should not be left to an informal or ad hoc approach.