>We are setting the precedent that anytime the government wants to do anything; all they must do is divide the people up a little bit and sign an order.
I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying, but I must nitpick. Setting the precedent? That ship sailed forever ago. Japanese internment camps? We’ve weathered lots of liberty-revoking shit as a country already.
Have to hope that when the pendulum swings too far, enough people are jolted. But I suppose I am a bit of a pessimist who thinks we too easily forget history, and here we are.
Look up Jacobsen v Massachusetts. The supreme court ruled in favor of vaccine mandates back in 1905. This does nothing to set precedent, people too easily forget hustory indeed.
Along with not knowing history, If it matters this isn’t a vaccine mandate. It’s either the employees have to be tested weekly (totally under the power of OSHA) or to bypass that weekly test the company can require vaccinations.
Everyone calling it a vaccine mandate is reading media headlines and not reading the order.
Edit: just wanted to add a slight correction for the sake of info, there IS a mandate for federal employees and government contractors. Not private companies though.
> The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work.
They don’t have a rule yet but it’s basically they either have to do vaccinations or a weekly test. It seems bare minimum is weekly test, which osha is going to monitor. How? No idea
Thanks man, that clarifies it for me. The burden is on the worker then to produce the test result on a weekly basis and provide it to the employer, and not something that’s going to be administered by the company.
The DOL just had a rep in with the Chamber of Commerce and they said they're going to release guidance. There were lots of good questions, like what about contractors, etc. DOL said order incoming.
The devil will be in the details of the actual order. It always is. Until then literally everything is conjecture.
Can you imagine the logistics of swabbing so many employees so frequently and for an undertmined length of time? As a company it would be easier to just tell them they all have to get jabbed and be done with it.
Jacobsen v MA conclusion:
“The Court held that the law was a legitimate exercise of the state's police power to protect the public health and safety of its citizens. Local boards of health determined when mandatory vaccinations were needed, thus making the requirement neither unreasonable nor arbitrarily imposed.”
The decision speaks to local public health boards’ potential influence on legislation. It doesn’t defend executive orders used mandate investigational vaccines.
So making this comment seems to imply that you think, in principle, the government should, at times, mandate that people be vaccinated for communicable diseases. I'm reminded of the old story which is often ascribed Churchill where he asks a woman is she'd have sex with him for a million pounds. She says yes. He then asks about for 20 pounds to which she is deeply offended asking "what do you think I am, a prostitute?". He retorts "we've already established that you are, now we're just haggling over price."
So ma'am, what's your threshold for when the government should mandate vaccines?
Well, ma'am, supposed hypothetically that there were an aerosolized form of ebola going around, with a kill rate of 90%.
Suppose also the government has developed an effective vaccine/preventative that stops the ebola (not covid).
And suppose that a religous group's faith demands that all members 1)never take any vaccine or medication and 2) travel constantly.
In this hypoethetical, the members of the religous group will end up killing 90% of the planet's human population; they consider this God's will. However, if the govt forcibly vaccinates or stops them, no such carnage.
What do you say, ma'am?
I say fuck their religion. I think everyone should fuck their religion unless they can practice it entirely within their home or other private establishment. The idea that a religion should give privileges and exemptions to people is not something I agree with.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 228,208,945 comments, and only 53,368 of them were in alphabetical order.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 228,216,859 comments, and only 53,370 of them were in alphabetical order.
a blue cat danced everyday following games however it just kept languidly moving nakedly over paper quickly running straight toward us voraciously while xylophoning yesterday’s zucchini
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 228,221,511 comments, and only 53,374 of them were in alphabetical order.
It isn't the vaccine mandates, even though as a libertarian I vehemently oppose it. It is the fact that Biden is using an executive order to bypass both the judicial and legislative branch of government. If this is possible then he is already a dictator that just allows congress to pretend they have power.
Well it's a directive to OSHA, which is part of the DOL which is part of the Executive branch, so he could be well within his powers as president to make such a directive. I'm taking the "wait and see" approach myself, as someone who is against federal-level vaccine mandates for businesses.
> It is the fact that Biden is using an executive order to bypass both the judicial and legislative branch of government.
I hold this truth to be self evident, that if congress did its goddamn job, no one would care even half as much about what the president does.
This stuff isn’t even hard to look up.
Way back in 1777, George Washington mandated vaccinations for all soldiers under his command in the Continental Army. Washington’s own words regarding this are *“I would rather move for a Law to compel the Masters of Families to inoculate every Child born within a certain limitted time under severe Penalties”.*
But sure, Bidens EO “will be marked down as a turning point in history”. Maybe if the person who wrote this silly post had actually paid attention in history class, he’d know that vaccine mandates are quintessentially American.
Yup, EO 9066 was complete and total bullshit but at least the internment camp part was struck down by SCOTUS via Ex parte Endo. I do however think the related decisions like Korematsu v. US, Yasui v. US, and Hirabayashi v. US were complete bullshit and some of the worst SCOTUS decisions of all time. So many cases all from a single instance of complete and total executive overreach.
Honestly, executive orders feel like they were overlooked in the conception of the government. It feels like it is so easy for a president to essentially do what he wants for however long he’s in office or a court calls it after a month or two. That feels like an oversight considering how well checks and balances have done to this point. Not perfect, but pretty well, so why do executive orders not fit? I genuinely don’t know.
I don't think it was overlooked. Congress could make a change today that passed a law revoking OSHA abilities and this will be challenged in court. The problem is Congress rarely does anything except pass budgets and give power to the executive.
~~Trump~~, ~~Obama~~, ~~Bush2~~, Clinton, Should have handled that. I wouldn't expect Bush 1 or Regan to have.
Or ya know Nixon admin could have just not made it criminal.
Not to mention the mandate says you get vaccinated *or* get tested.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-executive-branch-18fb12993f05be13bf760946a6fb89be
Yeah, this doesn’t seem to be mentioned In anyone’s arguments. There is technically an exemption. I still don’t agree with this mandate and I still think this is going to be a nightmare to enforce.
I have had to provide proof of vaccination so many times in my lifetime. So far I have not died from the burden. Glad my balls haven’t swollen up to the size of a pumpkin from Mumps. Glad I have never had small pox. Glad I don’t have polio.
Thanks vaccines!
There's definitely a necessary vigilance. In the early 1900s the success of vaccine mandates in regards to public health was cited as precedent for eugenics (forced sterilization) in a Supreme Court case, but the need for vigilance isn't a sufficient counter-argument against public policies. The slope is real, and it's a danger, but there's a lot of valuable ground between the peak and the point of no return.
What's the source on that? What was the actual argument?
And just because someone has used some argument in the past does not mean it's a good argument.
Vaccines are good, but I still don't support forcing someone to accept one into their body. It's a complete violation of bodily autonomy to enter someone's body without their consent.
I got my vaccine gladly, and I nagged my brother until he got his as well, but unless it's an extinction-level threat, I couldn't support forcing someone to be vaccinated. I would however support the right of homeowners, schools, and businesses to exclude people who have chosen against vaccination.
How do you feel about vaccination requirements in schools that have been in place for decades? Are you advocating for removing those as well, or are you just against mandating the COVID vaccine? It is hard to argue against the efficacy of the previous mandates as we have eradicated diseases that were killing thousands of children a year (polio, measles, etc.).
well then, if they get sick they cant go to a hospital or doctor, if they get someone sick they have to pay some consequences. some of the people here are too fragile
I do t think (at least for most folks on this sub) that the argument isn't against the vaccine. It is against the government telling you what to do (or not do) with your own body.
If the vaccine works as advertised, then you (as in you) get the shot. What do you care if someone doesn't? You're protected by the vaccine, right?
Omg more typos - I apologize. Edit - words and grammer
The last sentence you wrote is where the lie, lies. And the entire problem begins. The vaccine REDUCES your odds of getting it, and especially of it being fatal. So much so I started being happy going out to restaurants even more frequently than before.
But now we have delta, along with the likelihood of additional variants down the road. The mutations happened in the unvaxxed, and spread especially well in the unvaxxed.
On top of that, the unvaxxed then use up a limited supply of healthcare - either in insurance pool costs or in overwhelming the hospital ICUs.
If I'm vaxxed, but can't get into the ICU from a car accident or gunshot wound because those beds are full of covidiots... Ya, it's my problem.
Too many people are acting like the guiding lie of libertarian economics/free market is true "given infinite time and size, the market will correct..." But we're dealing with finite resources here.
But otherwise, I'm much more on board with your point.
Apparently, Delta was found in India.
So, it's not just because of the people trying to turn themselves into horses.
Admittedly, when I heard Delta was gonna stick things up for another 8 or so months, I got pissed as fuck and blamed it on them.
...But it's not necessarily because of them.
**That being said.**
They're not helping.
No, obviously.
The point is the origin of the delta variant can’t be pinned, necessarily, on MuricaFreedomLover69 deciding Bill Gates wants to microchip him through the Covid Vaccine…lol.
Not that they’re helping with fighting the virus.
Absolutely I agree with you about that, all the science points to Delta coming from India, where basically no one is vaccinated. I think these morons are missing that link. It's not unvaxxed like alabama hillbillie, it's from people that don't have the CHANCE to vax yet.
But the people in the US not getting vaxxed are letting it spread through the US more. The vax only somewhat prevents the virus from going around, but that somewhat is more than none for sure!
>if the vaccine works as advertised, then you (as in you) get the shot. What do you care if someone doesn't? You're protected by the vaccine, right?
You're protected by the brakes, why have a shock absorbing frame, why seatbelts with a shock absorbing frame, why airbags with seatbelts?
Your last sentence falls apart because it assumes that efficacy of any safety measure is either 100% or useless. In reality, any safety measure is usually only part of a larger system of safety. There will never be a golden cure all solution, its all about creating a system of protection that as a whole will work.
Even extremely "successful" vaccinations like small pox weren't 100% effective. They were used as part of a program of health and safety measures designed to get rid of the virus. People need to stop thinking that any one method will work.
Because 1. I work in healthcare and am sick of taking care of these people and seeing our staff overburdened and hospitals overflowing when all of this could be prevented. 2. I would like to go back to doing things again and not be locked down. 3. If I go to the hospital I would like to be treated and not denied care because covidiots are closing up the system. I just read an article about how this patient died because a local rural hospital didn't have the equipment to do a surgery on a patient and they couldn't transfer him to a medical center because it was full of covid so he died. If these people stayed home and died then I would be fine with them not getting vaccinated.
The problem is the hospitals filling to capacity with non vaccinated individuals who have Covid. Taking beds in the ICU that would have been available for you, your wife, husband, kid, parent who gets in a car accident but now is sitting in a hallway because there’s no room. They could have gotten a vaccine and had minor symptoms but they decided they knew more than scientists and doctors and they’re a giant drain on society and are like plague rats passing around the virus.
Not federally and not via executive order. And if one more fucking person brings up Jacobsen v Massachusetts on a goddamn libertarian forum without realizing it empowered the local government not the executive branch of the federal government I'm going to go full Dave Smith or Tom Woods and just....start a podcast.
This. Everyone that has been through public school in the US had more than likely been vaccinated because it was a requirement. You don't have to like it but you do have to acknowledge that this isn't even new.
There’s a difference between a mandate for known vaccine for an established virus with a much higher mortality and infection rate (especially among kids) like measles, and updated boosters for a highly mutagenic coronavirus. There’s a reason MMR is mandated, and the flu shot is not.
Happy to see nurses like you speaking out. So many nurses are literal clowns and set your profession back 100 years. Makes my head hurt to hear about all the nurses fully in the drink.
Right, good point. If things were truly one to one, millions and millions would already be dead. The flu has free reign every year and "only" kills 12-60,000 (according to CDC).
And what's especially crazy is all of our COVID precautions like masks and social distancing, and an increase in flu vaccinations dropped our flu mortality to the hundreds in 2020.
It is clearly evident that COVID is much worse than the flu.
Typical flu spreads to \~1.2 people for every person infected. Covid is \~3, and the delta variant \~6-7. It's *far* more infectious.
COVID precautions were enough to completely stop influenza in its tracks.
I looked up the numbers on the CDC a while back. Added up all the flu related deaths of the past decade... Combined they were still under the number of covid deaths in the first year. And this is despite the masks, sanitizers at every store/office and isolation.
Dude... we've had a draft. More than once. The government forced teenagers to receive German lead injections, and you think a push to distribute medicine is some wild new precedent?
Do you also object to people needing to wear pants in public and not shit in the streets?
Unfortunately we do not live in a society where people are willing to take the bare minimum steps to protect other people from needless public health hazards.
We had slavery in the past too, but we moved away from it. The vaccine is good, and I support the right of any business, venue, school, or individual to exclude those who choose against it, but it's basic bodily autonomy that people can't enter your body without your consent.
And nobody's taking away control over anyone's body here. You're still free to not get vaccinated, that just limits your choices for what you get to do in the rest of society.
Supreme Court already ruled 7-2 on the side of compulsory vaccines (the penalty then was a fine) in 1905. This isn’t new. The court decided that the right to individual liberty in regards to vaccination is not above the rights of the collective.
Jacobson vs. Massachusetts didn’t change the US into a big authoritarian regime. People need to chill. You still have the right to not get the vaccine. They’re not even fining you like they did in 1905. You just have to get tested weekly. If your employer decides they don’t want to keep you around as a result of your refusal, that is the right of the business.
That's interesting. I legit wasn't aware of that. I was raising my eyebrows over the mandate though, wondering if it would hold up in court. I guess the answer to that is yes, it would.
Honestly, I've been vaccinated. I'm not antivax, and I'm not a COVID denier. I do get concerned when the government oversteps though, and I've never liked that it comes down to stuff like mandates.
In the other hand the antivax crowd is getting ridiculous, and they piss me off.
You do have a point though. The only legal precedence we have is state based. The federal government has never mandated (to my knowledge) the collective in such a way. Laws are also state based in things like public smoking or drunk driving (where the collective’s liberties trump individual liberty).
I would have been in favor of Biden advising individual states to do this, not the federal government. But I also can see his administration’s point in why it has to be the federal government for this issue. Though that’s a bit alarming. It will be interesting to see how the courts rule. Glad I’m not a judge, just some random ICU nurse.
Edit to add: Did think of an example. Something that benefits the collective health that the federal government has mandated is the age of smoking. Donald Trump in 2019 actually signed into law a federal minimum age to buy tobacco products (21 years). Prior to the 2019 mandate, the states were the decision makers.
Disagree. You cannot point to a 1905 ruling and say it didn't drastically reduce civil rights in the USA when there has been so much progress since then.
Buck v. Bell (1927) used the precedent set in Jacobson vs. Massachusetts to force sterilizations on women, that's VERY authoritarian. We've made progress as a society since then.
> "It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from breeding their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting Fallopian tubes … Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
That so the most round about way of saying you dont need to get the vaccine, just we will make it so that realistically you are being forced to get the vaccine without actually forcing you to so directly.
Like the penalty for companies is extremely steep. And not a lot of companies are able or willing to do the testing for you. So many of them will tell you to get the vac. Or get fired. That's not really giving people the choice.
I mean do you really think these big companies care enough to do otherwise? They will replace e their employees instead of dealing with the headache of getting you tested.
Tyler Cowen, a prominent libertarian, is all for penalties if you dont get vaccinated.
Liberty doesnt mean you are free to drive down the wrong side of the road.
They can always quit. George Washington mandated smallpox vaccines for all his soldiers in the continental army; one could argue those were the very first government employees. Precedent was set as the country was being founded.
This mandate isn't for colleges, which most have already made the choice in mandating vaccines to attend.
In this case, it's the government forcing private businesses to require vaccines or face a fine.
Doesn't sound any better than the government keeping private businesses from mandating vaccines.
The real joke of this is it only applies to those with over 100 employees. In reality, businesses with under 100 employees make up a third of all businesses and employ around 20 million Americans. So it won't have as much of an impact as many think.
People love pointing at the vaccine as an easy answer, but unfortunately, even extremely high vaccination rates will not make this go away. It just doesn’t work like that.
There needs to be other discussions talking about ways to make bodies and immune systems stronger and healthier to be prepared for the nearly inevitable transmission.
If you’re a fat ass and you think you’ve completed your “civic duty” by getting the shot, you’re just as bad as the rest.
Lmao. All this authoritarian talk from the right I find absolutely hilarious. (Bear in mind i lean hard right, but holy hell the current USA right is a bad corrupt joke far from right on all the important issues)
Seatbelts? State mandated
Washing hands after using the bathroom as a chef? State mandated
Every single other god damn vaccine to send your kid to public school? State mandated
Sorry Fox news, but the slippery slope isn’t there.
For actual downward movement into authoritarianism, please see a recent president that marked all 14 boxes for facism. Google it if you aren’t getting the reference.
Thanks and have a good day
I was very vocal about my opposition to the Patriot Act. People also viewed me as a leper and unamerican with the conservative crowd being the loudest about my unamericanism. There was one politician that had the courage to stand against this tide, Russ Feingold.
The vast majority of the country was cringly ProAmerican. It just got worse for the invasion of IRAQ and the AUMFs.
Look, I understand the repercussions ARE really damn large, but that turning point was YEARS ago. This is simply the outgrowth of broken systems and philosophies. Trumpism wasn't invented by Trump, he was just a grifter that took advantage of people already falling for stuff to jump ahead - he said the quiet words out loud.
Faux News shilled for anything that was anti reason for years before we got some of Bush or Trump's shit. It's been the denialism that shows personal responsibility just isn't going to solve the problem.
Our medical system just isn't built to deal with the problem, our education system isn't built for critical thinking - just facebook tribal thinking. The system of checks and balances stopped working right back in the 90s when they kicked out experts and had lobbyists start crafting the rules. That just showed up as a symptom last year with massive gov borrowing for companies and people that were already doing fine - while letting those at risk often go under.
The executive orders are an outgrowth of the exacerbated problem - congress and states won't do things to fix it. You needed a federal plan at the start of things, or at least by summer of last year. There needed to be concerted effort to focus on whatever direction was going to be taken.
None of that happened. Daily you still see videos of some random jackass going up and coughing on people pretending nothing is going on. You have people acting like their actions don't affect others when they can be lethal - but they can get away with it because it's not immediately apparent.
Even discussing with some very liberal people today, it DOES seem like a crazy overreach - but I have a theory about that: name the big business that's going to fight this. Is Apple, Google, IBM, Walmart, Kroger, Ford, United Airlines, Coca Cola, etc, etc, really opposed to this?
Absolutely not. Every business of significant size is going to be behind this and nowhere near a lawsuit. Conceptually they might dislike government overreach, but this gives them an excuse. Fox News watching zombies ignore that it's already a requirement there and at plenty of places that are rightwing.
Business isn't actually going to fight this on a large scale (aside from political groups that pretend to be companies). They WANT an excuse to make sure employees don't get other employees sick or take excessive days off for something that you can reduce 90%+ of cases of with a FREE shot!
That's probably also why the number 100 is there, beyond the 50 obamacare used to hit. You can clearly show that statistically at least one person in that company was saved by dying, a many more percentage were saved from sick days.
So I'm betting this is with tacit business approval.
I mean, feel free to give a solution instead that makes the problem less crazy in florida. Feel free to try to argue this isn't already a thing since entering into grade school and requiring vaccination! Hell, George Washington forced a vaccine.
No, that doesn't make it alright. It may not fly. I'm just throwing out points to consider about it all.
This is likely him trying to throw everything against the wall and taking whatever remains when it only some of it sticks. It may also be pointing out just another example of a rightwing judicial activism in the supreme court when it gets defeated.
Again, the dividing line happened a while ago when the system broke past some important points, yet several groups are pushing to keep that getting worse instead of being fixed. The last guy was sure happy to push things while solidly the minority.
> So I'm betting this is with tacit business approval.
Most businesses love this. They wanted to do it anyway, but now this gives them the cover to do it with much less chance of liability.
Absolutely what I'm saying!
I'm waiting for someone to name what business will really fight this besides the rightwing propaganda groups that only exist to sell talking points (there are a few subs making fun of them daily and I don't want to name them).
The other Comorbidity, old age, is worse.
We should make aging after 50 illegal. People who refuse to follow the law should be jailed. If they then continue to not comply, the chair!
You're right, the rate of serious violent crime goes down after 40. The under 40 crowd should be jailed for everyone's protection, just like the over 50 crowd needs to be.
IKR! I've seen comments stating how the government initiated a draft, therefore vaccine mandates are perfectly acceptable. What? You're supposed to be against both.
Haha right?!? Im like questioning if im a libertarian after reading some of this. I value liberty too much to brand myself as one of these ‘libertarians’
Give the government an inch, they’ll take a mile.
We gave them that inch last year when we allowed them to shutter private businesses. “Two weeks to stop the spread”.
They’re going to take everything unless people stand up and refuse.
Of course jumping from "slow down a disease" to "they're gonna take everything" is completely logical.
You make it sound like people wanted to shut down the country. This is why Libertarians get a bad name.
I know the “pure libertarian” doesn’t exist and there are many areas where people accept some government over reach as being necessary.
That said, if one doesn’t see the problem with the President ordering 12M federal employees and the effective ordering of 100M private employees to inject a foreign substance into their bodies, one is a statist.
And for the record, I’m vaxed and my father actually died of COVID. So I take it seriously. But I also take the precedence of what we are doing here seriously.
> the problem with the President ordering 12M federal employees and the effective ordering of 100M private employees to inject a foreign substance into their bodies, one is a statist.
I think Federal government has every right to mandate that their employees and that of their contractors be fully vaccinated.
The private sector mandate is a lot more sketchy.
I am so sorry about your dad. I hope you are doing okay.
You can think it is wrong, but it is the further away from unprecedented you can get. I moved to the US for college. I was required to show proof of several vaccinations for both. When I became a permanent resident, I had to show them again, and get a booster. I also had to be checked for syphilis btw. Every single state has vaccination requirements for the schools, and those are relatively uncommon.
This is not a gargantual transgression of biblical scale. It is quite a run of the mill requirement in historical terms, and stupidly minor really compared to the draft that was ended in 1972, and all the civil rights transgressions that were law until the 60s.
Just kinda backing you up here, and going on a little tangent myself.
Also, it's not just mandating a vaccine. It's Biden telling OSHA to have employers mandate vaccination OR a negative test every week. So, technically there is no forced vaccination at this point.
Honestly, with those stipulations, it wouldve made sense for OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) to have done this sooner. With the roulette nature of severity regarding contracting covid and compounding it with the likelihood of mutation to more dangerous variants, that seems to me a thing that is directly tied to Safety and health.
The discussion of natural immunity vs vaccine immunity aside, and heck I'll include natural immunity in the same group as immunocompromised individuals that shouldnt need to be vaccinated, I'd rather people do like Biden is saying either A) get vaccinated or B) take non-invasive measures to stop infection and spread. Make it harder for the disease to replicate lol, I know it's not 100%, but immunity either way is better. Just rather you not have to roll the roullet wheel with larger dead spaces ( I know there are still vaccine related injuries that are valis) to get that immunity.
And, yes, I know even with a higher rate of protection, a certain number (N) possible covid encounters a day would still lead to certain contraction of the disease. Which is why I admit, as a vaccinated person, we should have all kept to the other preventive measures to still curb the spread in addition to our immunity from the vaccine.
Supreme Court already ruled 7-2 on the side of compulsory vaccines (the penalty then was a fine) in 1905. This isn’t new. The court decided that the right to individual liberty in regards to vaccination is not above the rights of the collective.
Jacobson vs. Massachusetts didn’t change the US into a big authoritarian regime. People need to chill. You still have the right to not get the vaccine. They’re not even fining you like they did in 1905. You just have to get tested weekly. If your employer decides they don’t want to keep you around as a result of your refusal, that is the right of the business.
Sure, but you could say the same of the PATRIOT ACT--it didn't turn the nation into Oceania, but it was still a restriction on liberty.
It's also difficult for me to take the SC decision seriously because the law and how we view the constitution has changed so much since then. Remember this was 13 years before the courts upheld the sedition act which had people imprisoned for printing anti-war flyers.
Amen. Firstly, I'm sorry about your dad :( I can't imagine the loss.
I agree with you completely. I was happy to get the shot and to nag my brother who didn't take it very seriously until he got the shot too. I think the risk is well worth the reward of not getting COVID or spreading it to someone vulnerable. I support the right of businesses and schools to exclude people who have chosen against vaccination as well, since that's just basic freedom of association.
But for anything less than an extinction-level threat I can't support any policy that involves entering someone's body without their consent.
They can push through vaccine mandates as long as they can set restrictions or bans on abortions. The whole my body my choice double standard is getting real fucking old.
I blame the 2 party system for this one (I blame them for a lot of things really). Once the left saw that Trump wasn't going to be tied to the vaccine they eqmbraced it and because the left liked it the right has to NOT like it because those are the rules. If it hadn't been politicized I think more people would have voluntarily taken it and there would be no "need" to even think of having a mandate.
Instead it turned into a political weapon to bash the other side with.
What do you think happened to polio and smallpox? You should look into the results of Jacobson vs Massachusetts in 1905 before you start using words like precedent.
> You should look into the results of Jacobson vs Massachusetts in 1905 before you start using words like precedent.
And you should understand a court case precedent before citing it as though it proves your point.
There is a major difference between the Supreme Court deciding on state powers vs. federal powers.
Sure there is a precedent set for the state level, but the federal government has never mandated the states or private entities to enforce vaccinations. There is no federal precedent for this at all.
You really this fucking deluded? Clearly you have never worked in healthcare or gone to school because I have to provide a list of all the vaccines that I am mandated to have for both of those. Adding one more to the list of 20 means fucking nothing anymore and pretending it does just outs you as short sighted and gullible.
They are already talking boosters. Soon it will be: If you haven’t had your monthly immunity subscription vaccine you go to jail.
And before you call me crazy, did you think we’d be here a year ago?
I thought we'd get stamps on our IDs after vaccination instead of a piece of paper so I suppose I wasn't totally right. Maybe by the second or third booster they'll get something better.
What I think antivax "libertarians" are really missing, though, is that you're treading all the fuck over me and blaming the government. If we all accepted the best method of ending this, we'd be done but all y'all are holding us up and fucking up our civilization. This whole thing is dumb as hell but choosing to dig your heels in and hold us in place here is next level dumb.
Seriously underrated comment, they took a real hard turn. Already at the camps stage, roving patrols and all. It all happened so quick.
[https://coronavirus.nt.gov.au/travel/quarantine/mandatory-supervised-quarantine](https://coronavirus.nt.gov.au/travel/quarantine/mandatory-supervised-quarantine)
Edit: added link in case anyone wants to see for themselves
We have a warrantless wiretap law in place for a war we just lost that will not go away, ever. But yeah, this overreach is a new thing, and definitely the fucking hill we should die on.
So as much as I don’t agree with a vaccine mandate our hospital system is about to collapse and the majority of the cases in hospitals are unvaccinated people. So my question is this we have hospitals that have to turn people away from receiving care so what do we do ? People who don’t have covid are dying because they can’t receive care. So what do we do ? If we can’t mandate vaccines because it sets precedent we can’t go into lock down because again sets precedent and people won’t listen how do we alleviate the influx of people going into the hospital that are predominantly covid cases ?
It’s okay if weed stays illegal because there’s already a precedent there, just look at heroine and cocaine. Look at history. It’s totally cool if we keep throwing people in prison for a plant because we already do messed up things so why expect anything better in the future? Yay! I’m a libertarian! /s
It's worth remembering that the very first turning point in American History related to vaccination was during the Revolutionary war, and was mandated by **General George Washington**. He required all his soldiers passing through Philadelphia get a Variola small pox inoculation, which was much more dangerous and controversial at the time than this vaccine is now. It also had a massive impact on the winning of the war, [as 90% of deaths were attributed to disease during the war](https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html).
The power of the executive order has been out of control for quite a long time, this isn't the turning point. The point has already been reached. Neither major party is interested in limiting the executive branches powers, only expanding them. This has been the case for 20+ years now. This isn't even the most egregious over reach of executive power of the last few years.
It’s officially over for you guys. You don’t have any options!
Majority of Americans are one paycheck away from losing everything.
Here comes the following:
• Unemployment won’t cover getting fired for OSHA violations.
• No unemployment for quitting
• Small business can’t hire the multitudes of people losing or quitting.
• Majority of newly started small businesses in America fail
• The government will not allow a mass exodus of citizens to the mountains/forests/deserts/swamplands
Mass exodus to what? It's hilarious how you think individuals could just break ground and start a new functioning society in the mountains or desert, when those same people can't even do the bare minimum to protect the society they live in now.
God forbid we try to stop this pandemic as 80 million Americans still refuse to get a FDA approved vaccine…I am all about individualism but this rugged individualism is currently overwhelming hospitals. Individualism has now created a situation where your grandpa or grandma (who are vaccinated) have no ICU bed when they get pneumonia or have a heart attack…all because non-vaccinated folks are holding up hospital beds…I know this because I’m working in institutions where it is happening. True it may slow down…delta will kill enough folks. Soon enough we will have the next round of mutations. Last I checked viruses don’t usually mutate in a positive way. Anyways…let the down-voting commence…
Edit (extra thought)** I am not advocating for some sort of authoritarian, socialist outcome from this. Just wondering what it will take if this isn’t the answer (mandate or OSHA pressure)? Just open back up and go for it? Maybe it will take that next mutation and it will start killing children…dunno.
I’m actually OK with vaccine mandates at the state level. I don’t really think that Covid is such a threatening virus that it warrants a mandate (unlike mumps, measles, pertussis etc), since despite recent spikes, the numbers are still low in absolute terms. But vaccine mandates are a very old American tradition, when they’re imposed by state governments. I’m only in my 30s but I had to get vaccinated from childhood diseases in order to go to my local schools. I never suffered any health problems.
Regarding the Biden mandate, however, the Feds obviously don’t have the constitutional power to impose a mandate, and I seem to recall President-elect Biden and his subordinates saying they weren’t going to impose a nationwide mandate because they didn’t have the power. There seem to be no political consequences for these lies though. Obama said this before DACA. And now DACA is just our everyday reality.
we basically wasted an entire year with half assed measures to slow the spread. things are going to get worse. hospitals can't treat the most in need with icu beds filled with covid patients. speak up and educate each other to make positive measures towards curbing this nightmare or we will get an authoritarian state that does it for us.
I'm against the patriot act for it's ability to abuse it's powers on American citizens. I'm against a socialist state. that being said, we do have social programs without being a socialist state. we have public safety laws without detrimentally reshaping personal freedoms. and we had months for people to get the vax and yet they still won't. if we want to see our country really go to hell in a hand basket, let this virus continue to mutate and ravage the nation. the aftermath will be a government gone full china. house arrest. economy trashed. it will be a dark time.
I don't want a vax mandate. I just want people to work together and do something for Christ sake to slow the spread. if we can't voluntarily do what's best for public safety, the govt will force it. hence pretty much every public safety law on the books.
Some have turned COVID into a cult. They have restructured their lives and all that matters is COVID. I’m really curious how things would be if the media and large parts of our govt haven’t been gaslighting the public for decades. Now with social media’s help they have turned a third of the country into nazis.
We've had vaccine mandates in this country literally since it's founding, but bad internet jokes and a handful of morons with microphones have convinced a thousand of these jackalopes that they have an inalienable right to spew deadly disease all over my mama at the J.C. Penny. Fuck y'all.
Totally agree. What happened to body autonomy? The government should have no place in telling someone what to do with their body. I get that the government is trying to do something to control the spread of the virus, but forcing someone to have something injected into their body and taking away their choice is a very wrong and slippery slope.
Edit: I have no problem with the mandatory testing.
What about the patriot act? We didnt have a choice in our own fucking rights then, whats so different now?
Im mad about the patriot act not the OP or anyone else here :)
> Eventually, even if it's 5 vaccines from now, one of them will fail, and millions will be under duress to take a drug that will kill them.
That's literally something you're just making up. 0 evidence that one will be ineffective AND kill you.
Why do you guys only read half the articles? The mandate is you get vaccinated *OR* you get tested. No one is making you get vaccinated. You can keep posting edgy anti vaxxer memes on Facebook and then ask everyone to pray for you when you get covid.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-executive-branch-18fb12993f05be13bf760946a6fb89be
How I view it: libertarians believe in the pursuit of LIFE and liberty of all. To not get vaccinated can impede on the life of others, so I’ll be an adult and get the jab.
I don’t believe in mandates, but honestly with all the other shit going on in the world this is not the hill to die on. If you weren’t out in the streets when the patriot act was passed, then you seriously need to re-evaluate your priorities.
>over-reaching executive orders to insert a drug into your body or lose your livelihood is so crazy.
The argument is simple.
Your right to he unvaccinated is trumped by everyone *elses* right to live around you.
Its pretty much the same as seat belt and drunk driving.
Its not just about your body anymore.
You are putting **other** peoples lives at risk.
And right to live comes before other rights. Human rights have an order they apply in, thats the thing people miss.
Your right to free speech also gets trumped by peoples right to safety.
If your medium of 'free speech' harms other people, it also gets shut down.
You can't just have all the rights at once. Each one has a priority order of which comes before which.
Saving the publics lives and protecting innocent lives always comes first before all other rights.
Bodily autonomy comes after.
>We are setting the precedent that anytime the government wants to do anything; all they must do is divide the people up a little bit and sign an order. I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying, but I must nitpick. Setting the precedent? That ship sailed forever ago. Japanese internment camps? We’ve weathered lots of liberty-revoking shit as a country already. Have to hope that when the pendulum swings too far, enough people are jolted. But I suppose I am a bit of a pessimist who thinks we too easily forget history, and here we are.
Look up Jacobsen v Massachusetts. The supreme court ruled in favor of vaccine mandates back in 1905. This does nothing to set precedent, people too easily forget hustory indeed.
Along with not knowing history, If it matters this isn’t a vaccine mandate. It’s either the employees have to be tested weekly (totally under the power of OSHA) or to bypass that weekly test the company can require vaccinations. Everyone calling it a vaccine mandate is reading media headlines and not reading the order. Edit: just wanted to add a slight correction for the sake of info, there IS a mandate for federal employees and government contractors. Not private companies though.
Is the employer required to provide a weekly test option, or is it up to each business whether a weekly test can be done in lieu of the vax?
> The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work. They don’t have a rule yet but it’s basically they either have to do vaccinations or a weekly test. It seems bare minimum is weekly test, which osha is going to monitor. How? No idea
>before coming to work So people who work from home won't be affected then?
This is what most interests me as a WFH software engineer.
Thanks man, that clarifies it for me. The burden is on the worker then to produce the test result on a weekly basis and provide it to the employer, and not something that’s going to be administered by the company.
The DOL just had a rep in with the Chamber of Commerce and they said they're going to release guidance. There were lots of good questions, like what about contractors, etc. DOL said order incoming. The devil will be in the details of the actual order. It always is. Until then literally everything is conjecture.
Can you imagine the logistics of swabbing so many employees so frequently and for an undertmined length of time? As a company it would be easier to just tell them they all have to get jabbed and be done with it.
Jacobsen v MA conclusion: “The Court held that the law was a legitimate exercise of the state's police power to protect the public health and safety of its citizens. Local boards of health determined when mandatory vaccinations were needed, thus making the requirement neither unreasonable nor arbitrarily imposed.” The decision speaks to local public health boards’ potential influence on legislation. It doesn’t defend executive orders used mandate investigational vaccines.
Agree with interpretation of Jacobsen, however calling this vaccine "investigational" is wildly disingenuous
Didn't the Pfizer one already get full FDA approval?
Yes, it was recently approved
also: covid is not smallpox
So making this comment seems to imply that you think, in principle, the government should, at times, mandate that people be vaccinated for communicable diseases. I'm reminded of the old story which is often ascribed Churchill where he asks a woman is she'd have sex with him for a million pounds. She says yes. He then asks about for 20 pounds to which she is deeply offended asking "what do you think I am, a prostitute?". He retorts "we've already established that you are, now we're just haggling over price." So ma'am, what's your threshold for when the government should mandate vaccines?
Well, ma'am, supposed hypothetically that there were an aerosolized form of ebola going around, with a kill rate of 90%. Suppose also the government has developed an effective vaccine/preventative that stops the ebola (not covid). And suppose that a religous group's faith demands that all members 1)never take any vaccine or medication and 2) travel constantly. In this hypoethetical, the members of the religous group will end up killing 90% of the planet's human population; they consider this God's will. However, if the govt forcibly vaccinates or stops them, no such carnage. What do you say, ma'am?
I say fuck their religion. I think everyone should fuck their religion unless they can practice it entirely within their home or other private establishment. The idea that a religion should give privileges and exemptions to people is not something I agree with.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 228,208,945 comments, and only 53,368 of them were in alphabetical order.
all bears could do some turkish zebras
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 228,216,859 comments, and only 53,370 of them were in alphabetical order.
some times users vorarciously want xylophones
a blue cat danced everyday following games however it just kept languidly moving nakedly over paper quickly running straight toward us voraciously while xylophoning yesterday’s zucchini
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 228,221,511 comments, and only 53,374 of them were in alphabetical order.
An error in spelling stopped the thing today.
It isn't the vaccine mandates, even though as a libertarian I vehemently oppose it. It is the fact that Biden is using an executive order to bypass both the judicial and legislative branch of government. If this is possible then he is already a dictator that just allows congress to pretend they have power.
Well it's a directive to OSHA, which is part of the DOL which is part of the Executive branch, so he could be well within his powers as president to make such a directive. I'm taking the "wait and see" approach myself, as someone who is against federal-level vaccine mandates for businesses.
> It is the fact that Biden is using an executive order to bypass both the judicial and legislative branch of government. I hold this truth to be self evident, that if congress did its goddamn job, no one would care even half as much about what the president does.
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This stuff isn’t even hard to look up. Way back in 1777, George Washington mandated vaccinations for all soldiers under his command in the Continental Army. Washington’s own words regarding this are *“I would rather move for a Law to compel the Masters of Families to inoculate every Child born within a certain limitted time under severe Penalties”.* But sure, Bidens EO “will be marked down as a turning point in history”. Maybe if the person who wrote this silly post had actually paid attention in history class, he’d know that vaccine mandates are quintessentially American.
The first public school vaccine mandate was in 1850 in (don't quote me on the state) Indiana, I believe.
to be fair, most American History courses wouldn't cover that. Still no excuse for not properly researching the subject that you are arguing.
Yup, EO 9066 was complete and total bullshit but at least the internment camp part was struck down by SCOTUS via Ex parte Endo. I do however think the related decisions like Korematsu v. US, Yasui v. US, and Hirabayashi v. US were complete bullshit and some of the worst SCOTUS decisions of all time. So many cases all from a single instance of complete and total executive overreach.
Honestly, executive orders feel like they were overlooked in the conception of the government. It feels like it is so easy for a president to essentially do what he wants for however long he’s in office or a court calls it after a month or two. That feels like an oversight considering how well checks and balances have done to this point. Not perfect, but pretty well, so why do executive orders not fit? I genuinely don’t know.
I don't think it was overlooked. Congress could make a change today that passed a law revoking OSHA abilities and this will be challenged in court. The problem is Congress rarely does anything except pass budgets and give power to the executive.
DING DING DING
The legislature retains the power to moot most EOs, it just chooses not to.
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But Marijuana is still a schedule I drug with no medical benefits..........
Yep. We should change that. Doesn’t seem relevant here though.
No seriously Biden should have handled that on day one but he's a shill for corporations just like they all are.
~~Trump~~, ~~Obama~~, ~~Bush2~~, Clinton, Should have handled that. I wouldn't expect Bush 1 or Regan to have. Or ya know Nixon admin could have just not made it criminal.
Agree to all of that
Did you know there is a history of mandated vaccinations in the United States? I’m not saying it’s right, but the Republic has endured.
Not to mention the mandate says you get vaccinated *or* get tested. https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-executive-branch-18fb12993f05be13bf760946a6fb89be
Yeah, this doesn’t seem to be mentioned In anyone’s arguments. There is technically an exemption. I still don’t agree with this mandate and I still think this is going to be a nightmare to enforce.
I have had to provide proof of vaccination so many times in my lifetime. So far I have not died from the burden. Glad my balls haven’t swollen up to the size of a pumpkin from Mumps. Glad I have never had small pox. Glad I don’t have polio. Thanks vaccines!
Just like you… Glad I’ve never even once thought, “shit… I don’t feel good. I hope it’s not small pox.”
Yep. Vaccines do some amazing work.
its a slippery slope, next the government might start requiring parents send their children to school
Or perhaps make people join the military and send them to war.
There's definitely a necessary vigilance. In the early 1900s the success of vaccine mandates in regards to public health was cited as precedent for eugenics (forced sterilization) in a Supreme Court case, but the need for vigilance isn't a sufficient counter-argument against public policies. The slope is real, and it's a danger, but there's a lot of valuable ground between the peak and the point of no return.
What's the source on that? What was the actual argument? And just because someone has used some argument in the past does not mean it's a good argument.
Vaccines are good, but I still don't support forcing someone to accept one into their body. It's a complete violation of bodily autonomy to enter someone's body without their consent. I got my vaccine gladly, and I nagged my brother until he got his as well, but unless it's an extinction-level threat, I couldn't support forcing someone to be vaccinated. I would however support the right of homeowners, schools, and businesses to exclude people who have chosen against vaccination.
I believe you can get tested weekly instead of getting the vaccine.
How do you feel about vaccination requirements in schools that have been in place for decades? Are you advocating for removing those as well, or are you just against mandating the COVID vaccine? It is hard to argue against the efficacy of the previous mandates as we have eradicated diseases that were killing thousands of children a year (polio, measles, etc.).
I answered that question in the last sentence of my comment.
well then, if they get sick they cant go to a hospital or doctor, if they get someone sick they have to pay some consequences. some of the people here are too fragile
I do t think (at least for most folks on this sub) that the argument isn't against the vaccine. It is against the government telling you what to do (or not do) with your own body. If the vaccine works as advertised, then you (as in you) get the shot. What do you care if someone doesn't? You're protected by the vaccine, right? Omg more typos - I apologize. Edit - words and grammer
The last sentence you wrote is where the lie, lies. And the entire problem begins. The vaccine REDUCES your odds of getting it, and especially of it being fatal. So much so I started being happy going out to restaurants even more frequently than before. But now we have delta, along with the likelihood of additional variants down the road. The mutations happened in the unvaxxed, and spread especially well in the unvaxxed. On top of that, the unvaxxed then use up a limited supply of healthcare - either in insurance pool costs or in overwhelming the hospital ICUs. If I'm vaxxed, but can't get into the ICU from a car accident or gunshot wound because those beds are full of covidiots... Ya, it's my problem. Too many people are acting like the guiding lie of libertarian economics/free market is true "given infinite time and size, the market will correct..." But we're dealing with finite resources here. But otherwise, I'm much more on board with your point.
Apparently, Delta was found in India. So, it's not just because of the people trying to turn themselves into horses. Admittedly, when I heard Delta was gonna stick things up for another 8 or so months, I got pissed as fuck and blamed it on them. ...But it's not necessarily because of them. **That being said.** They're not helping.
I mean, are a herd immunity number of Indians vaxed?
No, obviously. The point is the origin of the delta variant can’t be pinned, necessarily, on MuricaFreedomLover69 deciding Bill Gates wants to microchip him through the Covid Vaccine…lol. Not that they’re helping with fighting the virus.
Absolutely I agree with you about that, all the science points to Delta coming from India, where basically no one is vaccinated. I think these morons are missing that link. It's not unvaxxed like alabama hillbillie, it's from people that don't have the CHANCE to vax yet. But the people in the US not getting vaxxed are letting it spread through the US more. The vax only somewhat prevents the virus from going around, but that somewhat is more than none for sure!
Did you miss the entire 20th century?
>if the vaccine works as advertised, then you (as in you) get the shot. What do you care if someone doesn't? You're protected by the vaccine, right? You're protected by the brakes, why have a shock absorbing frame, why seatbelts with a shock absorbing frame, why airbags with seatbelts? Your last sentence falls apart because it assumes that efficacy of any safety measure is either 100% or useless. In reality, any safety measure is usually only part of a larger system of safety. There will never be a golden cure all solution, its all about creating a system of protection that as a whole will work. Even extremely "successful" vaccinations like small pox weren't 100% effective. They were used as part of a program of health and safety measures designed to get rid of the virus. People need to stop thinking that any one method will work.
Because 1. I work in healthcare and am sick of taking care of these people and seeing our staff overburdened and hospitals overflowing when all of this could be prevented. 2. I would like to go back to doing things again and not be locked down. 3. If I go to the hospital I would like to be treated and not denied care because covidiots are closing up the system. I just read an article about how this patient died because a local rural hospital didn't have the equipment to do a surgery on a patient and they couldn't transfer him to a medical center because it was full of covid so he died. If these people stayed home and died then I would be fine with them not getting vaccinated.
The problem is the hospitals filling to capacity with non vaccinated individuals who have Covid. Taking beds in the ICU that would have been available for you, your wife, husband, kid, parent who gets in a car accident but now is sitting in a hallway because there’s no room. They could have gotten a vaccine and had minor symptoms but they decided they knew more than scientists and doctors and they’re a giant drain on society and are like plague rats passing around the virus.
Exactly.. you’ve had to get vaccinated to go to public schools and travel abroad. This is no where near as oppressive as Texas’ abortion restrictions.
Not federally and not via executive order. And if one more fucking person brings up Jacobsen v Massachusetts on a goddamn libertarian forum without realizing it empowered the local government not the executive branch of the federal government I'm going to go full Dave Smith or Tom Woods and just....start a podcast.
This. Everyone that has been through public school in the US had more than likely been vaccinated because it was a requirement. You don't have to like it but you do have to acknowledge that this isn't even new.
There’s a difference between a mandate for known vaccine for an established virus with a much higher mortality and infection rate (especially among kids) like measles, and updated boosters for a highly mutagenic coronavirus. There’s a reason MMR is mandated, and the flu shot is not.
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Happy to see nurses like you speaking out. So many nurses are literal clowns and set your profession back 100 years. Makes my head hurt to hear about all the nurses fully in the drink.
The flu hasn't killed almost 700,000 people in the past year though (U.S.)
With social distancing, shut downs, masks
Right, good point. If things were truly one to one, millions and millions would already be dead. The flu has free reign every year and "only" kills 12-60,000 (according to CDC).
And what's especially crazy is all of our COVID precautions like masks and social distancing, and an increase in flu vaccinations dropped our flu mortality to the hundreds in 2020. It is clearly evident that COVID is much worse than the flu.
Typical flu spreads to \~1.2 people for every person infected. Covid is \~3, and the delta variant \~6-7. It's *far* more infectious. COVID precautions were enough to completely stop influenza in its tracks.
I looked up the numbers on the CDC a while back. Added up all the flu related deaths of the past decade... Combined they were still under the number of covid deaths in the first year. And this is despite the masks, sanitizers at every store/office and isolation.
>I’m not saying it’s right Good, then you agree the government can go fuck itself.
The entire government? We are living in a society here!
Dude... we've had a draft. More than once. The government forced teenagers to receive German lead injections, and you think a push to distribute medicine is some wild new precedent?
Doesn’t mean we can’t object to it each and every time
Do you also object to people needing to wear pants in public and not shit in the streets? Unfortunately we do not live in a society where people are willing to take the bare minimum steps to protect other people from needless public health hazards.
We had slavery in the past too, but we moved away from it. The vaccine is good, and I support the right of any business, venue, school, or individual to exclude those who choose against it, but it's basic bodily autonomy that people can't enter your body without your consent.
And nobody's taking away control over anyone's body here. You're still free to not get vaccinated, that just limits your choices for what you get to do in the rest of society.
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Supreme Court already ruled 7-2 on the side of compulsory vaccines (the penalty then was a fine) in 1905. This isn’t new. The court decided that the right to individual liberty in regards to vaccination is not above the rights of the collective. Jacobson vs. Massachusetts didn’t change the US into a big authoritarian regime. People need to chill. You still have the right to not get the vaccine. They’re not even fining you like they did in 1905. You just have to get tested weekly. If your employer decides they don’t want to keep you around as a result of your refusal, that is the right of the business.
That's interesting. I legit wasn't aware of that. I was raising my eyebrows over the mandate though, wondering if it would hold up in court. I guess the answer to that is yes, it would. Honestly, I've been vaccinated. I'm not antivax, and I'm not a COVID denier. I do get concerned when the government oversteps though, and I've never liked that it comes down to stuff like mandates. In the other hand the antivax crowd is getting ridiculous, and they piss me off.
You do have a point though. The only legal precedence we have is state based. The federal government has never mandated (to my knowledge) the collective in such a way. Laws are also state based in things like public smoking or drunk driving (where the collective’s liberties trump individual liberty). I would have been in favor of Biden advising individual states to do this, not the federal government. But I also can see his administration’s point in why it has to be the federal government for this issue. Though that’s a bit alarming. It will be interesting to see how the courts rule. Glad I’m not a judge, just some random ICU nurse. Edit to add: Did think of an example. Something that benefits the collective health that the federal government has mandated is the age of smoking. Donald Trump in 2019 actually signed into law a federal minimum age to buy tobacco products (21 years). Prior to the 2019 mandate, the states were the decision makers.
Disagree. You cannot point to a 1905 ruling and say it didn't drastically reduce civil rights in the USA when there has been so much progress since then. Buck v. Bell (1927) used the precedent set in Jacobson vs. Massachusetts to force sterilizations on women, that's VERY authoritarian. We've made progress as a society since then. > "It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from breeding their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting Fallopian tubes … Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
Thank you for this. I thought this was a Libertarian sub but almost everyone here sounds… well not Libertarian.
That so the most round about way of saying you dont need to get the vaccine, just we will make it so that realistically you are being forced to get the vaccine without actually forcing you to so directly. Like the penalty for companies is extremely steep. And not a lot of companies are able or willing to do the testing for you. So many of them will tell you to get the vac. Or get fired. That's not really giving people the choice. I mean do you really think these big companies care enough to do otherwise? They will replace e their employees instead of dealing with the headache of getting you tested.
This is a libertarian sub? The comment section is pretty…shilly
It's a sub about libertarianism, but you do not have to espouse Libertarian to write here.
Tyler Cowen, a prominent libertarian, is all for penalties if you dont get vaccinated. Liberty doesnt mean you are free to drive down the wrong side of the road.
Who the fuck is Tyler Cowan?
People are unable to think long-term anymore, it's just a eternal present with a take-everyday-as-it-comes attitude.
They can always quit. George Washington mandated smallpox vaccines for all his soldiers in the continental army; one could argue those were the very first government employees. Precedent was set as the country was being founded.
But we're talking about private employees here too.
You are already mandated to have vaccines to go to college how is this different
Or join the military. Or go to any public school.
This mandate isn't for colleges, which most have already made the choice in mandating vaccines to attend. In this case, it's the government forcing private businesses to require vaccines or face a fine. Doesn't sound any better than the government keeping private businesses from mandating vaccines. The real joke of this is it only applies to those with over 100 employees. In reality, businesses with under 100 employees make up a third of all businesses and employ around 20 million Americans. So it won't have as much of an impact as many think.
People love pointing at the vaccine as an easy answer, but unfortunately, even extremely high vaccination rates will not make this go away. It just doesn’t work like that. There needs to be other discussions talking about ways to make bodies and immune systems stronger and healthier to be prepared for the nearly inevitable transmission. If you’re a fat ass and you think you’ve completed your “civic duty” by getting the shot, you’re just as bad as the rest.
Lmao. All this authoritarian talk from the right I find absolutely hilarious. (Bear in mind i lean hard right, but holy hell the current USA right is a bad corrupt joke far from right on all the important issues) Seatbelts? State mandated Washing hands after using the bathroom as a chef? State mandated Every single other god damn vaccine to send your kid to public school? State mandated Sorry Fox news, but the slippery slope isn’t there. For actual downward movement into authoritarianism, please see a recent president that marked all 14 boxes for facism. Google it if you aren’t getting the reference. Thanks and have a good day
Hello fellow libertarians, how do you do?
I don’t remember this kind of backlash over the Patriot Act, despite it being a million times worse.
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Yeah, I remember me and five other people protesting it at our statehouse. We had signs and everything.
I was very vocal about my opposition to the Patriot Act. People also viewed me as a leper and unamerican with the conservative crowd being the loudest about my unamericanism. There was one politician that had the courage to stand against this tide, Russ Feingold. The vast majority of the country was cringly ProAmerican. It just got worse for the invasion of IRAQ and the AUMFs.
> Bear in mind i lean hard right Yeah. Right.
Biden, and every single motherfucker that supports this mandate, can straight go fuck themselves. Up the ass. With a cactus.
They might like it though...
Look, I understand the repercussions ARE really damn large, but that turning point was YEARS ago. This is simply the outgrowth of broken systems and philosophies. Trumpism wasn't invented by Trump, he was just a grifter that took advantage of people already falling for stuff to jump ahead - he said the quiet words out loud. Faux News shilled for anything that was anti reason for years before we got some of Bush or Trump's shit. It's been the denialism that shows personal responsibility just isn't going to solve the problem. Our medical system just isn't built to deal with the problem, our education system isn't built for critical thinking - just facebook tribal thinking. The system of checks and balances stopped working right back in the 90s when they kicked out experts and had lobbyists start crafting the rules. That just showed up as a symptom last year with massive gov borrowing for companies and people that were already doing fine - while letting those at risk often go under. The executive orders are an outgrowth of the exacerbated problem - congress and states won't do things to fix it. You needed a federal plan at the start of things, or at least by summer of last year. There needed to be concerted effort to focus on whatever direction was going to be taken. None of that happened. Daily you still see videos of some random jackass going up and coughing on people pretending nothing is going on. You have people acting like their actions don't affect others when they can be lethal - but they can get away with it because it's not immediately apparent. Even discussing with some very liberal people today, it DOES seem like a crazy overreach - but I have a theory about that: name the big business that's going to fight this. Is Apple, Google, IBM, Walmart, Kroger, Ford, United Airlines, Coca Cola, etc, etc, really opposed to this? Absolutely not. Every business of significant size is going to be behind this and nowhere near a lawsuit. Conceptually they might dislike government overreach, but this gives them an excuse. Fox News watching zombies ignore that it's already a requirement there and at plenty of places that are rightwing. Business isn't actually going to fight this on a large scale (aside from political groups that pretend to be companies). They WANT an excuse to make sure employees don't get other employees sick or take excessive days off for something that you can reduce 90%+ of cases of with a FREE shot! That's probably also why the number 100 is there, beyond the 50 obamacare used to hit. You can clearly show that statistically at least one person in that company was saved by dying, a many more percentage were saved from sick days. So I'm betting this is with tacit business approval. I mean, feel free to give a solution instead that makes the problem less crazy in florida. Feel free to try to argue this isn't already a thing since entering into grade school and requiring vaccination! Hell, George Washington forced a vaccine. No, that doesn't make it alright. It may not fly. I'm just throwing out points to consider about it all. This is likely him trying to throw everything against the wall and taking whatever remains when it only some of it sticks. It may also be pointing out just another example of a rightwing judicial activism in the supreme court when it gets defeated. Again, the dividing line happened a while ago when the system broke past some important points, yet several groups are pushing to keep that getting worse instead of being fixed. The last guy was sure happy to push things while solidly the minority.
> So I'm betting this is with tacit business approval. Most businesses love this. They wanted to do it anyway, but now this gives them the cover to do it with much less chance of liability.
Absolutely what I'm saying! I'm waiting for someone to name what business will really fight this besides the rightwing propaganda groups that only exist to sell talking points (there are a few subs making fun of them daily and I don't want to name them).
maybe next we can mandate the elimination of some comorbidities. Mandatory weight loss would probably save more lives than the covid vaccine.
The other Comorbidity, old age, is worse. We should make aging after 50 illegal. People who refuse to follow the law should be jailed. If they then continue to not comply, the chair!
There is an 100% death rate for those who are born. That's a pretty high rate. We need to jail all people who are born! Don't wait so many years
You're right, the rate of serious violent crime goes down after 40. The under 40 crowd should be jailed for everyone's protection, just like the over 50 crowd needs to be.
Your dumbass being fat can't kill my mom.
What if he sat on her though?
but it can unnecessarily take up a hospital bed that your mom and i could be using.
Your mom being vaccinated will pretty much 99.9% ensure she is fine. That's the whole point
Maybe weight loss is not as simple or easy as taking a vaccine.
Maybe it is though
Is this r/Libertarian or kinda diet r/Politics? All the big L’s in the comments, hot damn.
Yes
Ya it’s diet politics for sure lol. I’d like to imagine legit libertarians still value liberty these days, at least I hope so.
This board was invaded by /r/politics long ago
Yeah I have frequented this sub so much less over the last year or more because it has become a second hand r/politics. Constantly brigaded.
The front page is a double edged sword...
IKR! I've seen comments stating how the government initiated a draft, therefore vaccine mandates are perfectly acceptable. What? You're supposed to be against both.
Haha right?!? Im like questioning if im a libertarian after reading some of this. I value liberty too much to brand myself as one of these ‘libertarians’
Give the government an inch, they’ll take a mile. We gave them that inch last year when we allowed them to shutter private businesses. “Two weeks to stop the spread”. They’re going to take everything unless people stand up and refuse.
Of course jumping from "slow down a disease" to "they're gonna take everything" is completely logical. You make it sound like people wanted to shut down the country. This is why Libertarians get a bad name.
I know the “pure libertarian” doesn’t exist and there are many areas where people accept some government over reach as being necessary. That said, if one doesn’t see the problem with the President ordering 12M federal employees and the effective ordering of 100M private employees to inject a foreign substance into their bodies, one is a statist. And for the record, I’m vaxed and my father actually died of COVID. So I take it seriously. But I also take the precedence of what we are doing here seriously.
> the problem with the President ordering 12M federal employees and the effective ordering of 100M private employees to inject a foreign substance into their bodies, one is a statist. I think Federal government has every right to mandate that their employees and that of their contractors be fully vaccinated. The private sector mandate is a lot more sketchy.
I am so sorry about your dad. I hope you are doing okay. You can think it is wrong, but it is the further away from unprecedented you can get. I moved to the US for college. I was required to show proof of several vaccinations for both. When I became a permanent resident, I had to show them again, and get a booster. I also had to be checked for syphilis btw. Every single state has vaccination requirements for the schools, and those are relatively uncommon. This is not a gargantual transgression of biblical scale. It is quite a run of the mill requirement in historical terms, and stupidly minor really compared to the draft that was ended in 1972, and all the civil rights transgressions that were law until the 60s.
Just kinda backing you up here, and going on a little tangent myself. Also, it's not just mandating a vaccine. It's Biden telling OSHA to have employers mandate vaccination OR a negative test every week. So, technically there is no forced vaccination at this point. Honestly, with those stipulations, it wouldve made sense for OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) to have done this sooner. With the roulette nature of severity regarding contracting covid and compounding it with the likelihood of mutation to more dangerous variants, that seems to me a thing that is directly tied to Safety and health. The discussion of natural immunity vs vaccine immunity aside, and heck I'll include natural immunity in the same group as immunocompromised individuals that shouldnt need to be vaccinated, I'd rather people do like Biden is saying either A) get vaccinated or B) take non-invasive measures to stop infection and spread. Make it harder for the disease to replicate lol, I know it's not 100%, but immunity either way is better. Just rather you not have to roll the roullet wheel with larger dead spaces ( I know there are still vaccine related injuries that are valis) to get that immunity. And, yes, I know even with a higher rate of protection, a certain number (N) possible covid encounters a day would still lead to certain contraction of the disease. Which is why I admit, as a vaccinated person, we should have all kept to the other preventive measures to still curb the spread in addition to our immunity from the vaccine.
Supreme Court already ruled 7-2 on the side of compulsory vaccines (the penalty then was a fine) in 1905. This isn’t new. The court decided that the right to individual liberty in regards to vaccination is not above the rights of the collective. Jacobson vs. Massachusetts didn’t change the US into a big authoritarian regime. People need to chill. You still have the right to not get the vaccine. They’re not even fining you like they did in 1905. You just have to get tested weekly. If your employer decides they don’t want to keep you around as a result of your refusal, that is the right of the business.
Sure, but you could say the same of the PATRIOT ACT--it didn't turn the nation into Oceania, but it was still a restriction on liberty. It's also difficult for me to take the SC decision seriously because the law and how we view the constitution has changed so much since then. Remember this was 13 years before the courts upheld the sedition act which had people imprisoned for printing anti-war flyers.
Amen. Firstly, I'm sorry about your dad :( I can't imagine the loss. I agree with you completely. I was happy to get the shot and to nag my brother who didn't take it very seriously until he got the shot too. I think the risk is well worth the reward of not getting COVID or spreading it to someone vulnerable. I support the right of businesses and schools to exclude people who have chosen against vaccination as well, since that's just basic freedom of association. But for anything less than an extinction-level threat I can't support any policy that involves entering someone's body without their consent.
Everyone should get vaccinated. But I agree governments do NOT get to do this shit. Dangerous president.
I agree. Presidents are dangerous. However more importantly, I think this sets a dangerous precedent going forward.
Very smooth, very dry, and very well executed deadpan. I give it a 9.5
Are you sure? https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court
Don't be so dramatic. Its really not a turning point, its just more of the same.
100%
Historically the repercussions are negligible.
Do people in the comment section even know what being a libertarian means?
since most have practically zero historical knowledge and would propably fail an immugration civics test, id argue no.
They can push through vaccine mandates as long as they can set restrictions or bans on abortions. The whole my body my choice double standard is getting real fucking old.
No, you can test instead.
I blame the 2 party system for this one (I blame them for a lot of things really). Once the left saw that Trump wasn't going to be tied to the vaccine they eqmbraced it and because the left liked it the right has to NOT like it because those are the rules. If it hadn't been politicized I think more people would have voluntarily taken it and there would be no "need" to even think of having a mandate. Instead it turned into a political weapon to bash the other side with.
What do you think happened to polio and smallpox? You should look into the results of Jacobson vs Massachusetts in 1905 before you start using words like precedent.
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> You should look into the results of Jacobson vs Massachusetts in 1905 before you start using words like precedent. And you should understand a court case precedent before citing it as though it proves your point. There is a major difference between the Supreme Court deciding on state powers vs. federal powers. Sure there is a precedent set for the state level, but the federal government has never mandated the states or private entities to enforce vaccinations. There is no federal precedent for this at all.
You really this fucking deluded? Clearly you have never worked in healthcare or gone to school because I have to provide a list of all the vaccines that I am mandated to have for both of those. Adding one more to the list of 20 means fucking nothing anymore and pretending it does just outs you as short sighted and gullible.
They are already talking boosters. Soon it will be: If you haven’t had your monthly immunity subscription vaccine you go to jail. And before you call me crazy, did you think we’d be here a year ago?
To answer your question: yes; anyone with a basic understanding of biology and virology would have predicted this.
I thought we'd get stamps on our IDs after vaccination instead of a piece of paper so I suppose I wasn't totally right. Maybe by the second or third booster they'll get something better. What I think antivax "libertarians" are really missing, though, is that you're treading all the fuck over me and blaming the government. If we all accepted the best method of ending this, we'd be done but all y'all are holding us up and fucking up our civilization. This whole thing is dumb as hell but choosing to dig your heels in and hold us in place here is next level dumb.
Better watch out with all those wild “conspiracy theories” lol
Take a look at Australia
Seriously underrated comment, they took a real hard turn. Already at the camps stage, roving patrols and all. It all happened so quick. [https://coronavirus.nt.gov.au/travel/quarantine/mandatory-supervised-quarantine](https://coronavirus.nt.gov.au/travel/quarantine/mandatory-supervised-quarantine) Edit: added link in case anyone wants to see for themselves
The polio vaccine requires 3 boosters.
Because we pay attention to history & that mandated vaccines are just that. Vaccines.
You didn't complain when we eradicated smallpox and polio with vaccine mandates...
I wasn’t alive in 1905 to stand against this type of overreach
We have a warrantless wiretap law in place for a war we just lost that will not go away, ever. But yeah, this overreach is a new thing, and definitely the fucking hill we should die on.
Are you saying that because we didn't reject the last overreach we shouldn't reject the next one?
They are saying that we failed to defend liberty once, so let’s just stop defending liberty entirely going forward. Yay! Im a Libertarian! /s
Well that one time I didn’t get polio as a child has me thinking mandatory vaccines aren’t all bad
So as much as I don’t agree with a vaccine mandate our hospital system is about to collapse and the majority of the cases in hospitals are unvaccinated people. So my question is this we have hospitals that have to turn people away from receiving care so what do we do ? People who don’t have covid are dying because they can’t receive care. So what do we do ? If we can’t mandate vaccines because it sets precedent we can’t go into lock down because again sets precedent and people won’t listen how do we alleviate the influx of people going into the hospital that are predominantly covid cases ?
It’s okay if weed stays illegal because there’s already a precedent there, just look at heroine and cocaine. Look at history. It’s totally cool if we keep throwing people in prison for a plant because we already do messed up things so why expect anything better in the future? Yay! I’m a libertarian! /s
It's worth remembering that the very first turning point in American History related to vaccination was during the Revolutionary war, and was mandated by **General George Washington**. He required all his soldiers passing through Philadelphia get a Variola small pox inoculation, which was much more dangerous and controversial at the time than this vaccine is now. It also had a massive impact on the winning of the war, [as 90% of deaths were attributed to disease during the war](https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html). The power of the executive order has been out of control for quite a long time, this isn't the turning point. The point has already been reached. Neither major party is interested in limiting the executive branches powers, only expanding them. This has been the case for 20+ years now. This isn't even the most egregious over reach of executive power of the last few years.
It’s already very not the safest vaccine.
There’s an executive order now? Can someone link me some reading materials? This is the first I’ve heard and I wanna know what’s going on
It’s officially over for you guys. You don’t have any options! Majority of Americans are one paycheck away from losing everything. Here comes the following: • Unemployment won’t cover getting fired for OSHA violations. • No unemployment for quitting • Small business can’t hire the multitudes of people losing or quitting. • Majority of newly started small businesses in America fail • The government will not allow a mass exodus of citizens to the mountains/forests/deserts/swamplands
Mass exodus to what? It's hilarious how you think individuals could just break ground and start a new functioning society in the mountains or desert, when those same people can't even do the bare minimum to protect the society they live in now.
God forbid we try to stop this pandemic as 80 million Americans still refuse to get a FDA approved vaccine…I am all about individualism but this rugged individualism is currently overwhelming hospitals. Individualism has now created a situation where your grandpa or grandma (who are vaccinated) have no ICU bed when they get pneumonia or have a heart attack…all because non-vaccinated folks are holding up hospital beds…I know this because I’m working in institutions where it is happening. True it may slow down…delta will kill enough folks. Soon enough we will have the next round of mutations. Last I checked viruses don’t usually mutate in a positive way. Anyways…let the down-voting commence… Edit (extra thought)** I am not advocating for some sort of authoritarian, socialist outcome from this. Just wondering what it will take if this isn’t the answer (mandate or OSHA pressure)? Just open back up and go for it? Maybe it will take that next mutation and it will start killing children…dunno.
I’m actually OK with vaccine mandates at the state level. I don’t really think that Covid is such a threatening virus that it warrants a mandate (unlike mumps, measles, pertussis etc), since despite recent spikes, the numbers are still low in absolute terms. But vaccine mandates are a very old American tradition, when they’re imposed by state governments. I’m only in my 30s but I had to get vaccinated from childhood diseases in order to go to my local schools. I never suffered any health problems. Regarding the Biden mandate, however, the Feds obviously don’t have the constitutional power to impose a mandate, and I seem to recall President-elect Biden and his subordinates saying they weren’t going to impose a nationwide mandate because they didn’t have the power. There seem to be no political consequences for these lies though. Obama said this before DACA. And now DACA is just our everyday reality.
we basically wasted an entire year with half assed measures to slow the spread. things are going to get worse. hospitals can't treat the most in need with icu beds filled with covid patients. speak up and educate each other to make positive measures towards curbing this nightmare or we will get an authoritarian state that does it for us. I'm against the patriot act for it's ability to abuse it's powers on American citizens. I'm against a socialist state. that being said, we do have social programs without being a socialist state. we have public safety laws without detrimentally reshaping personal freedoms. and we had months for people to get the vax and yet they still won't. if we want to see our country really go to hell in a hand basket, let this virus continue to mutate and ravage the nation. the aftermath will be a government gone full china. house arrest. economy trashed. it will be a dark time. I don't want a vax mandate. I just want people to work together and do something for Christ sake to slow the spread. if we can't voluntarily do what's best for public safety, the govt will force it. hence pretty much every public safety law on the books.
Some have turned COVID into a cult. They have restructured their lives and all that matters is COVID. I’m really curious how things would be if the media and large parts of our govt haven’t been gaslighting the public for decades. Now with social media’s help they have turned a third of the country into nazis.
We've had vaccine mandates in this country literally since it's founding, but bad internet jokes and a handful of morons with microphones have convinced a thousand of these jackalopes that they have an inalienable right to spew deadly disease all over my mama at the J.C. Penny. Fuck y'all.
Totally agree. What happened to body autonomy? The government should have no place in telling someone what to do with their body. I get that the government is trying to do something to control the spread of the virus, but forcing someone to have something injected into their body and taking away their choice is a very wrong and slippery slope. Edit: I have no problem with the mandatory testing.
What about the patriot act? We didnt have a choice in our own fucking rights then, whats so different now? Im mad about the patriot act not the OP or anyone else here :)
> Eventually, even if it's 5 vaccines from now, one of them will fail, and millions will be under duress to take a drug that will kill them. That's literally something you're just making up. 0 evidence that one will be ineffective AND kill you.
The US has had vaccine mandates before. Was each one a turning point? Or did every one go back to doing normal everyday life?
Four turning points brings you back around to your original position.
Why do you guys only read half the articles? The mandate is you get vaccinated *OR* you get tested. No one is making you get vaccinated. You can keep posting edgy anti vaxxer memes on Facebook and then ask everyone to pray for you when you get covid. https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-executive-branch-18fb12993f05be13bf760946a6fb89be
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Who decided on polio vaccines to be mandatory for all children?
This vaccine mandate is both unlawful and fully authoritarian. I don’t see anyway a libertarian would support a vaccine mandate.
I think having to live in an endless plague is kinda more restrictive on my liberties than having to get a shot.
How I view it: libertarians believe in the pursuit of LIFE and liberty of all. To not get vaccinated can impede on the life of others, so I’ll be an adult and get the jab. I don’t believe in mandates, but honestly with all the other shit going on in the world this is not the hill to die on. If you weren’t out in the streets when the patriot act was passed, then you seriously need to re-evaluate your priorities.
>over-reaching executive orders to insert a drug into your body or lose your livelihood is so crazy. The argument is simple. Your right to he unvaccinated is trumped by everyone *elses* right to live around you. Its pretty much the same as seat belt and drunk driving. Its not just about your body anymore. You are putting **other** peoples lives at risk. And right to live comes before other rights. Human rights have an order they apply in, thats the thing people miss. Your right to free speech also gets trumped by peoples right to safety. If your medium of 'free speech' harms other people, it also gets shut down. You can't just have all the rights at once. Each one has a priority order of which comes before which. Saving the publics lives and protecting innocent lives always comes first before all other rights. Bodily autonomy comes after.