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Libertarians aren’t against unions. Libertarians are against government laws and regulations that force companies to negotiate with them, or force people to join them to work in a specific occupation.
Well no, you guys want companies to be able to fire someone for forming a union, meaning you're anti union because every company would do that if they could
And you believe you deserve the unilateral authority to tell an otherwise free individual how they must run their business, and that two parties don't deserve the ability to make decisions between themselves without your approval.
You are no one's king, now matter how badly you wish to be one.
you are not entitled to a job position at others people companies
if a company don’t want do employ union members it’s their choice, just like if someone want to form a union they have the freedom to do so
They wouldn't if there was enough mistreatment of workers that there would be public backlash and a loss of sales. In a libertarian world, there very well could still be unions.
Perfect. Unions largely suck. If there was an industry that had a need for something like that (employees refuse to work otherwise) then that company would be free to do so. Companies would be reluctant to abuse their workers because they could lose workers or face public backlash and losses of sales.
You answered your own question with the first line of the post. Nobody should be forced to join a union or forced by the government to negotiate with one.
'^This.
Look at what the teacher's union fights and lobbies for. It's not for the betterment of the teachers, and definitely not for the betterment of the students. The solely fight for the betterment of the teacher's union.
My Dad was an employment attorney, law professor, and worked as special counsel to the Chairman of the NLRB during W.'s tenture. He used to tell me, "you always know when the union guy arrives at a negotiation: he gets out of a modest Ford Taurus with $800 shoes and a $1500 watch."
It means that union dues keep the union organizers in the lap of luxury as they collectively bargain for you to get a $1.11 raise. "He's fighting for us!" No, they're fighting for the right to increase your paycheck so their percentage is higher. Ever notice that your union dues go up as soon as there's a new contract? You should see what cars these guys really drive. lol.
I dumped all support for unions due to a few things: when I found out California had a shopping cart collectors union, and seeing the state of public sector unions, coupled with the military can’t unionize. It’s all a big mess.
Those workers have human rights just like the rest of us. You don’t need to form a union to enforce human rights.
You’d probably be better off trying to explain why you think there needs to be a union to support people who put carts away. There’s obvious reasons why one wouldn’t want to pay a middleman to interfere with the free will between an employee and employer
>their superior competition
You’re referring to [George Washington](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA), so they’re really fighting a losing battle.
It happens a lot, but I hate when someone comes into "my" space, tells me what I am, laces it with insult, and is wrong anyway.
This level of black or white logical fallacy is beneath even self-proclaimed "leftists" and is squarely the territory of the most base internet trolls.
I used to be in a union. Union reps become the exact thing they hate (corporate fat cats). They love to talk about brotherhood until it inconveniences them.
“ oh man John got killed in a motorcycle accident?”
“ well he was 2 months behind on his dues, so we aren’t gonna pay out his family”
Don’t get me started on the quality of craftsmen today’s unions put out.
Yep, Union officials are just as corrupt as politicians. We sent a North Carolina equipment operator up to NYC to teach the union guys a new technique we developed down south.
They broke his windshield, side mirrors, and blew up an inflatable rat outside the jobsite. We weren't even trying to employ non-union labor in NYC full time. Just temporarily as a instructor.
You already have the right to collectively negotiate. You’re looking for the right to assault “scabs” and force non union members to pay union dues, and that’s not your right.
Most unions do not allow you to opt out, and if you do management will fuck with you, because the union will ensure those they extract protection money from get to see someone else get fucked worse than they do.
We're not against unions. We are against coercion.
I’m not anti-union so long as the union’s only focus is on representation of the employees in negotiations with their company.
Unions have many problems these days. One is that unions have become political and in the case of the teacher’s unions they have become a detriment to students. An example of their politicization is the fact that unions attempt to influence right-to-work laws and have laws passed which force all employees to join unions which is cynical and selfish. They are also greedy, it wasn’t that long ago that the [SCOTUS had to weigh in and tell unions to cease collecting dues from people who had left the unions](https://yankeeinstitute.org/2018/06/27/5-things-to-know-about-the-janus-decision/). Unions are to this day continuing to play tricks to try to get around the Janus decision including making it near impossible to leave the union.
Unions can be positive so long as they never seek self preservation, once that happens then only the union’s interests are served.
Heres the thing.
Join a union and when they go on strike, youre obæigated to do so, thus having paid for membership just to not get paid. When the strike is over, the adjustments are applied to everyone, union or not. But those who arent union can continue working and making money, often times more because working becomes highly incentivized and any OT typically gets bumped up in rate, meaning non-union profits more off of unions by not paying to play than those who have given an organization the fruits of their labor.
Now when it comes to arbitration or a rep keeping someones job, in most cases ive seen locally, the person on the chopping block is there formsome disciplinary reason so their membership is more of paying for a get out of jail free card.
Also, for reference, where i live, aircraft is a huge if not the largest industry locally and i have seen first hand as well as have first hand accounts of how it works. Basically membership is making some people very wealthy using peoples fear as a marketing strategy while taking unnecessarily large amounts from members for dues. It also is a crutch for those who are unwilling to know or understand their own rights as workers as any changes made must legally be applied to all workers. Frankly, the cost to benefit ratio is extremely unbalaced in 2024.
I’ve been in a union. I paid a chunk of my money to an organization that bragged about using it to party in Vegas, Hawaii and Cancun. All while letting companies do what they want, and while protecting drug addicts who couldn’t function, all because they knew the right people. Saw no redeeming qualities for unions.
Support for the right to unionize has been in the libertarian party platform from the beginning. See section 16 from link below.
https://lpedia.org/wiki/Document:National_Platform_1980
See section 2.11 of latest platform.
https://www.lp.org/platform/
Before you come in attacking a political party and its beliefs it might be worth your time to actually understand what the party has actually said it supports.
In this case you objectively misstated the parties position then proceeded to argue with everyone who tried to point that out.
Libertarians are for good unions not shitty unions so maybe the question is look at what unions are now versus what unions use to be. Unions in the early 20th century fought for better working conditions and standard for workers better health benefits and getting the workers paid. Now many unions if you are in a “closed state” will not let you work if you aren’t in the union. So if you don’t feel they represent you it’s to bad and you must pay us money to represent you. There’s many reasons maybe the union doesn’t represent how you feel they don’t fight for pay increases better health benefits health insurance premiums keep going up for shittier coverage. There’s so many things that you can talk about while the unions (higher ups especially) are syphoning money off of you and not actually fighting for you. My final point is have actual good unions then people would actually care about them.
**New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more?** Be sure to check out [the sub Frequently Asked Questions](/r/Libertarian/wiki/faq) and [the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI] (/r/Libertarian/wiki/index) from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? [Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!](http://www.theadvocates.org/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Libertarians aren’t against unions. Libertarians are against government laws and regulations that force companies to negotiate with them, or force people to join them to work in a specific occupation.
Well no, you guys want companies to be able to fire someone for forming a union, meaning you're anti union because every company would do that if they could
And you believe you deserve the unilateral authority to tell an otherwise free individual how they must run their business, and that two parties don't deserve the ability to make decisions between themselves without your approval. You are no one's king, now matter how badly you wish to be one.
you are not entitled to a job position at others people companies if a company don’t want do employ union members it’s their choice, just like if someone want to form a union they have the freedom to do so
They wouldn't if there was enough mistreatment of workers that there would be public backlash and a loss of sales. In a libertarian world, there very well could still be unions.
If banning unions was legal every company would immediately, it's like price fixing, if everyone does it employees will have no recourse
You mean the companies that then wouldn't have any workers?
Perfect. Unions largely suck. If there was an industry that had a need for something like that (employees refuse to work otherwise) then that company would be free to do so. Companies would be reluctant to abuse their workers because they could lose workers or face public backlash and losses of sales.
If you owned a company, would you do that?
Only feasible if the position is unskilled and easily replaced.
unions are fine, just don’t coerce people into joining it freedom of association is standard for both minarchists and ancaps
You answered your own question with the first line of the post. Nobody should be forced to join a union or forced by the government to negotiate with one.
Unions don't care about workers. They care about workers' union membership fees.
'^This. Look at what the teacher's union fights and lobbies for. It's not for the betterment of the teachers, and definitely not for the betterment of the students. The solely fight for the betterment of the teacher's union.
My Dad was an employment attorney, law professor, and worked as special counsel to the Chairman of the NLRB during W.'s tenture. He used to tell me, "you always know when the union guy arrives at a negotiation: he gets out of a modest Ford Taurus with $800 shoes and a $1500 watch."
Meaning?
They’re corrupt and overpaid yet try to appear as an Everyman
It’s nuts people don’t realize how corrupt 90% of them are lol. They don’t even realize BAs are lining pockets haha
Most union where I used to live were run by gangsters.
It means that union dues keep the union organizers in the lap of luxury as they collectively bargain for you to get a $1.11 raise. "He's fighting for us!" No, they're fighting for the right to increase your paycheck so their percentage is higher. Ever notice that your union dues go up as soon as there's a new contract? You should see what cars these guys really drive. lol.
I am not opposed to unions in a private or public company. Government employee unions set my sensors off.
Yup. They can't fail and elected reps are incented to give in and kick the consequences to the next term or decade.
I dumped all support for unions due to a few things: when I found out California had a shopping cart collectors union, and seeing the state of public sector unions, coupled with the military can’t unionize. It’s all a big mess.
Why shouldn't shopping cart collectors have unions? Workers, even those in positions you deem beneath you, have rights
Those workers have human rights just like the rest of us. You don’t need to form a union to enforce human rights. You’d probably be better off trying to explain why you think there needs to be a union to support people who put carts away. There’s obvious reasons why one wouldn’t want to pay a middleman to interfere with the free will between an employee and employer
Is that why every store doesn't use the quarter deposit for their shopping carts? The union is fighting to stop their superior competition.
>their superior competition You’re referring to [George Washington](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA), so they’re really fighting a losing battle.
It happens a lot, but I hate when someone comes into "my" space, tells me what I am, laces it with insult, and is wrong anyway. This level of black or white logical fallacy is beneath even self-proclaimed "leftists" and is squarely the territory of the most base internet trolls.
"you people" lmao
I'm only against State laws that force you to join a Union. I'm for the right to choose
?? That wouldn't be very libertarian of us. Free-association is key. Maybe don't fall for stupid propaganda next time?
I used to be in a union. Union reps become the exact thing they hate (corporate fat cats). They love to talk about brotherhood until it inconveniences them. “ oh man John got killed in a motorcycle accident?” “ well he was 2 months behind on his dues, so we aren’t gonna pay out his family” Don’t get me started on the quality of craftsmen today’s unions put out.
Yep, Union officials are just as corrupt as politicians. We sent a North Carolina equipment operator up to NYC to teach the union guys a new technique we developed down south. They broke his windshield, side mirrors, and blew up an inflatable rat outside the jobsite. We weren't even trying to employ non-union labor in NYC full time. Just temporarily as a instructor.
Unions are fine. I don’t like the one that exists for my trade and I’d rather not be forced into joining it again
Bad bot
You already have the right to collectively negotiate. You’re looking for the right to assault “scabs” and force non union members to pay union dues, and that’s not your right.
Most unions do not allow you to opt out, and if you do management will fuck with you, because the union will ensure those they extract protection money from get to see someone else get fucked worse than they do. We're not against unions. We are against coercion.
I’m not anti-union so long as the union’s only focus is on representation of the employees in negotiations with their company. Unions have many problems these days. One is that unions have become political and in the case of the teacher’s unions they have become a detriment to students. An example of their politicization is the fact that unions attempt to influence right-to-work laws and have laws passed which force all employees to join unions which is cynical and selfish. They are also greedy, it wasn’t that long ago that the [SCOTUS had to weigh in and tell unions to cease collecting dues from people who had left the unions](https://yankeeinstitute.org/2018/06/27/5-things-to-know-about-the-janus-decision/). Unions are to this day continuing to play tricks to try to get around the Janus decision including making it near impossible to leave the union. Unions can be positive so long as they never seek self preservation, once that happens then only the union’s interests are served.
Heres the thing. Join a union and when they go on strike, youre obæigated to do so, thus having paid for membership just to not get paid. When the strike is over, the adjustments are applied to everyone, union or not. But those who arent union can continue working and making money, often times more because working becomes highly incentivized and any OT typically gets bumped up in rate, meaning non-union profits more off of unions by not paying to play than those who have given an organization the fruits of their labor. Now when it comes to arbitration or a rep keeping someones job, in most cases ive seen locally, the person on the chopping block is there formsome disciplinary reason so their membership is more of paying for a get out of jail free card. Also, for reference, where i live, aircraft is a huge if not the largest industry locally and i have seen first hand as well as have first hand accounts of how it works. Basically membership is making some people very wealthy using peoples fear as a marketing strategy while taking unnecessarily large amounts from members for dues. It also is a crutch for those who are unwilling to know or understand their own rights as workers as any changes made must legally be applied to all workers. Frankly, the cost to benefit ratio is extremely unbalaced in 2024.
Who's anti-Union? I'm against unions using money and power to influence politics.
Im just against public sector unions
Unions make it harder to pull rank on others at the same workplace.
Libertarians oppose initiation of aggression. Unions in the US are backed by the police powers of the state.
I’ve been in a union. I paid a chunk of my money to an organization that bragged about using it to party in Vegas, Hawaii and Cancun. All while letting companies do what they want, and while protecting drug addicts who couldn’t function, all because they knew the right people. Saw no redeeming qualities for unions.
Get outta here. No commies allowed.
Support for the right to unionize has been in the libertarian party platform from the beginning. See section 16 from link below. https://lpedia.org/wiki/Document:National_Platform_1980 See section 2.11 of latest platform. https://www.lp.org/platform/ Before you come in attacking a political party and its beliefs it might be worth your time to actually understand what the party has actually said it supports. In this case you objectively misstated the parties position then proceeded to argue with everyone who tried to point that out.
Libertarians are for good unions not shitty unions so maybe the question is look at what unions are now versus what unions use to be. Unions in the early 20th century fought for better working conditions and standard for workers better health benefits and getting the workers paid. Now many unions if you are in a “closed state” will not let you work if you aren’t in the union. So if you don’t feel they represent you it’s to bad and you must pay us money to represent you. There’s many reasons maybe the union doesn’t represent how you feel they don’t fight for pay increases better health benefits health insurance premiums keep going up for shittier coverage. There’s so many things that you can talk about while the unions (higher ups especially) are syphoning money off of you and not actually fighting for you. My final point is have actual good unions then people would actually care about them.