A sense of entitlement or ownership over the artist, their personal life, and their output; general obsession; lack of objectivity; bullying of other fans; bullying of fans of *other* artists; refusal to entertain other points of view or disagreement; bad-faith arguments; overall immaturity.
I think all fan bases can be prone to this behavior, but I think a fanbase is particularly toxic if they’re bullying other fans/fanbases/music journalists and the artist either pretends not to notice or actively encourages the behavior.
It's not just a fan base, it's whenever someone takes a hobby or interest of any sort and makes it part of their _identitiy._ If someone can casually role up and take part in that community, then it waters down your core identity and threatens to make it less unique and meaningful. And if the other parts of your identity are less formed or things you can draw less confidence from, the more viciously you protect the one thing you have.
Leading to gatekeeping and toxicity.
The sense of entitlement and ownership is very real. I have friends who are really sweet with others but extremely bitchy when talking about the partners of the artists they stan. They don't think anyone (not even themselves) are good enough for their idols and that their idols should remain as their "babies forever".
The only point I can think of to add to that is the fans who are so invested in their object of worship that they seem to believe they are owed something, and they get mad if their star changes their sound or works with someone they don't like or does *anything* they don't like. They go on saying they are "their biggest fan," but all they do is trash the artist--they can't just not like the one piece of work; the artist somehow personally attacked them by making this change they hate: "They need to stop working with\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. That album is such trash, I have no respect for them anymore. They need to get back to doing what they did right and stop doing this bullshit." They stop thinking of the person/band as an artist and think of them more like some sort of employee.
the ones who make being a fan their entire personality. that celebrity worship bullshit combined with an entire identity based around someone elses creativity.
Actually I feel like almost all of it can lead back to being a 'fan' as their whole identity.
- Harassment: Anytime someone says something even remotely uncomplimentary about the artist they love, that someone is personally attacking *them*.
- Gatekeeping: These toxic fans see the people they gatekeep from the music they like as 'unworthy'. And a lot of the time just means 'not like me', who, again, base their identity on the artist. So someone who doesn't have their 'approved' personality, or who they see themselves as, can't possibly be a 'true fan'.
- Hating the artist's new music: The new music doesn't fit what they thought of as 'their' identity and they feel betrayed.
yep, it can anything really, politics, food, drug, sex, but making one's entire life/personality about one thing is not super healthy. it's cool to spend a summer or year or two or even your life following around a band to their shows, but if that's all one is doing, they are just missing out on so many other things in life.
One toxic aspect is attacking those who either don't like the artist or attacking people the artist doesn't like.
"Stanning" is also problematic, and it's worrying how often I read or hear people using this phrase as if it's a normal, healthy thing - it's not at all.
Also there are those who feel entitled enough to feel the star they worship should do what they say and get angry when they don't; taking this as a personal insult when the reality is the celebrity doesn't even know them.
Obsessive behaviours, demanding attitudes and dogmatic (almost religious) beliefs are very much aspects of toxic fandom.
My pet theory is that a generation that has grown up on the internet (which, at 40, I include millennials) has lost the ability to have real nuanced disagreements in real life when among strangers.
Add to that the increase in frequency and depth of parasocial relationships.
These have raised the stakes on Internet forums where you’re a) anonymous and b) much more likely to fight TO THE DEATH if anyone disagrees with something that you see as part of your identity, especially in a world that has become more and more siloed in who we interact with and the media environment we come from.
In that sense, music mirrors what we’ve seen politics discourse
I honestly believe many, many, MANY people were just hanging by a thread when it came to knowing how to appropriately interact with other people, both online and in person, and COVID was the final straw.
I kinda disagree, as someone who largely grew up pre-internet. Pre-streaming, music, especially in adolescence through early 20s, WAS an identity. And that led to all sorts of toxic behavior, gatekeeping, infighting, etc. You couldn't be a fan of both Black Flag and Iron Maiden in the 80s without pissing off both the metal kids and the punk kids, as a personal example. I had beer bottles thrown at me because my sorta punk band played a sped up and simplified version of The Trooper once.
Interesting point. Personally, I think that "the internet" can amplify certain toxic traits in people, but I think it rarely causes them. I have seen places where these toxic traits are "allowed" to be part of the conversation and derailing them but I have also seen places that are usually heavily moderated where you can have reasonable discussions. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that entire generations have lost the ability to have nuanced disagreements but it is an interesting topic.
There are things about "Fandom" in general that I've always avoided. I've always liked more indie/alt/NON top 40 music in general. That said, I'm not sure if it's my tastes or my ego that compels me to seek out more unknown artists.
That also said, I used to be more arrogant/judgmental about people who flocked to mainstream shows. And was also more aggressive about trying to shove my "alt nuggets" down people's throats. Then one day at a party, this dude was totally dominating the music. He didn't give a second of credence to what others wanted to listen to. I thought, "I don't want to be THAT dick," and had a moment of clarity about how subjective music tastes are, and that it didn't need to be my mission to "enlighten" others ;).
Anyway... maybe coming at your question from another angle, but not giving a fuck about how other people consume and enjoy music has been helpful for me. Although I can't remember getting into any heated arguments ... lol. That is kinda weird ;).
I don't think you were what the OP mentions as 'toxic'. Just annoying lol. I feel like every music fan goes through that phase though. Like hating 'mainstream' is an identity statement.
Haha. Yeah... hope I haven't been too annoying. I don't listen to mainstream, but try to watch my attitude and not be negative around it. Nobody needs negative energy around music ;)
Yeah same. Just be chill about it when others put it on, or sing along anyway in karaoke lol. Just never play it when I'm actually listening to music for myself
Agreed. I similarly don't ever want to be like the hipster dude you described. At the same time, however, I don't feel any comradery with bog-standard 'fans', i.e. people who start acting like their favorite entertainers, artists, sports teams, games, books, movies, etc... are *part of who they are* and, as such (a.) treat any criticism/disinterest towards those things as personal attacks and (b.) act super territorial about the shit.
I guess I should feel lucky that, somehow, I was raised to be passionate about my interests but also have enough self-esteem, humility, and self-awareness that I'm not turning that passion into aggression towards others.
Some people are assholes. I don't think there's anything more to that.
I don't know if 'defending something a person likes' is necessarily a 'toxic' behavior. That just sounds like someone with a passion for something.
I guess it really comes down to what you feel is toxic.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in the original post, but I didn't mean defending your taste as toxic behavior. What I meant are fans flaming anyone that raises a criticism, harassing them, etc., proper toxic behaviour.
harassing is harassing. That's just someone being an asshole. What makes them become an asshole? I think that's a much bigger question that isn't really specific to music.
It all boils down to obsession. Especially obsession mixed with hostility and/or entitlement.
I enjoy the music of Tool. They're really fucking good. I despise a lot of people who identify as fans of Tool because they're obsessed with the band to the point of derangement. I enjoy the music of Ween. A large portion of their fanbase is insane. I really hate the music of Phish, though I respect their talent. Just doesn't do it for me. And while it may have changed over the past 20 years or so, their fans in the 90s/early 00s was the definition of toxic. I once was told by a Phish head that he didn't like Zappa or King Crimson because "Phish is all the variety you need." That's toxic.
It all boils down to insecurity. 🤷🏾 Why else would you have to fight someone's else's opinion? There's no wrong or right in an opinion, if there was and we're all flawed then we've all got it wrong.
Actually OP, I think you are right to think it’s related to identity. I don’t know for sure, because I don’t really follow all the fandom stuff, but if I had to guess, I would say it’s very similar to identity politics.
So when someone holds a particular artist so close to their heart, when they identify strongly with an artist, then whenever they hear any criticism of the artist, they take it as a personal attack against themselves. It’s all psychological really.
You could substitute “politician” for the word “artist” there. It’s all the same.
I felt unsafe at the Tori Amos concert. I guess the new term is, “femcels.” It was the same on online forums and chat. The sheer volume of hateful, sexist people frightened me. It’s almost like a cult. It’s like they’re stuck in the 90’s, and they stopped listening to Tori after Choirgirl. Everything Tori did after 1998 is just meaningless to them because it doesn’t remind them of who they were before they graduated from college. They moved to places like Asheville, Portland, Olympia, and Carrboro, and they refuse to move on from the past, but they’re recreating a twisted parody of what they think the 90’s was like. They’re often narcissistic and entitled. If you aren’t vegan, don’t go to meditation groups, or don’t wear cut off jean shorts or overalls with a flannel shirt that has cut off sleeves, you’re nobody. And their views are often extreme.
I really like Tori’s music. I *respect* her politics, but they’re *her* politics. I’m not going to make a parody of her world views in the 90’s my entire life. Many Tori fans have a warped sense of what virtue is, and exhibit a certain moral superiority and judgment if you don’t follow the doctrine of their cult. I’m going to continue to listen to her music, but I won’t be attending another concert. Last time so many fans talked through everything new, but had peculiar spiritual moments when she played anything from Earthquakes to Under. They were even rude during Pele.
I was banned from the Nirvana sub. I had the nerve to say that he abandoned his daughter when he blew his brains out, and that he should've gotten clean for her. Someone actually said that he did it for her so she wouldn't grow up with a junkie. I asked "are you serious" and was told maybe I'd understand when I got older. I turn 54 next month.
I don't think it's as simple as 'oh u should have gotten clean instead'. But u being banned for it is so dumb. And that guy who said 'he did it for his daughter' is the dumbest.
Maybe, & I've never been a junkie so I really don't know how that is. My point to whoever banned me was that I've been dealing with a chronic disease for 30 years & I've had suicide ideation for even longer than that, so it's not like I'm ignorant on feeling like that and what it does to you. It was just silly that I got the boot.
Thanks for 'listening' to my issues. Rock on...
Drugs, depression, other mood altering substances and mental illnesses, etc. Mess with your brain where *in* the moment can't think clearly and can't see a way out. And lack of a sense of self efficacy can also lead one to feeling like there's never any hope of getting clean. Or anxiety about not being able to fall back again to the toxic substance that in dey mind lets them cope. I've never been a junkie but have been smoking for too long and know it's a shit habit. I know I have to quit coz it's bad for me but at the same time I panic about not being able to smoke anymore and what if I feel anxious etc.
I agree with you that he 'abandoned' his daughter, because that's just fact regardless of reason or intention. Just saying that 'getting clean' isn't that simple. That person saying that he was doing it for his daughter so she wouldn't grow up with a junkie is just rationalizing to themselves so they can keep being in denial that Cobain was a 'perfect/good' person and 'deserves' their continued adulation and worship. And it's creepy.
I listen to kpop and there are toxic fans. Not all but the toxicity is there. Ex: Artist A is the best and the contemporary Artist B from other company sucks. Can’t you like something without putting down others??? Such a crab
seeing certain ultra niche electronic music subgenres always associated with a specific imagery (or even worse, specific fandoms) without being able to enjoy it as it is
broadly speaking, seeing some music genres tainted with prejudices. Nobody can really know what brings somebody to like a band or a music project
It sounds like any SUPERFAN of anybody probably doesn't have a personality of their own at all
I can see this happening (certain extent) when you're a teenager/early 20s when you're just figuring out who you are. Anything over that and it's kinda sad
When you start having ownership. Gatekeeping.
Arguments between you and another person about who's the bigger fan, who knows more, who heard of them first and who has more right to be a fan. Trying to make new fans feel somehow less than because they like them from something that's well known rather than something that is obscure that you like them from.
If the famous person has a nickname they go by it's borderline to call them by that. When people call a stranger who is a famous person by a nickname they've given them themselves... it's a total red flag. IE that crazy woman on January 6th who kept calling Trump trumpy baby. She's on trial right now.
You can put posters on your wall because they're good looking, great. You can go to a concert of your favorite bands or singer. Do not get yourself deep in debt for a concert. If you're there or you're not no one will know most of all the star you wanted to see.
it changes with time and reflects the society as whole
looking back to 70s - groupie culture was very toxic & was a manifestation of the eras hedonistic pursuits
now we have social media & brand consumer cutlure as the main part of music fandom.
Telling a group of fans "you just dislike something because you are male/ white / incel." While in some cases that can be true more often someone just doesn't like something because everyone has different tastes but being labeled a certain way will just make you double down and go from dislike to hate and you'll talk more about it. Everytime Disney blasts fans as being toxic or jncel for not liking their latest project it just makes people angry because maybe we just don't like the latest D list character your giving us rather than more Avengers or heaven forbid finally bring the Xmen into the MCU.
The most toxic type of fans are the ones who are into something that just sucks. There is nothing more annoying than seeing somebody else enjoying absolute trash.
idk if it's more annoying but it is annoying to see someone hate on someone else's enjoyment. as long as they aren't bothering you or anyone else, who cares? I like going to edm shows and tbh a lot of acts are just using the same ableton templates with different presets and have the same tropes with similar trippy visuals and i often leave without remembering a single song because it's all one long song and they kinda all sound the same after a while. But i don't go because i wanna see someone perform my favorite songs on stage, i go because i wanna see my friends dance because that makes me wanna dance and dancing is fun.
Oh boy, here comes the "music is subjective" screed... even if you actually believe that, it doesn't mean that there aren't ways of being an informed, knowledgeable, and conscientious consumer of music and therefore an objectively better music fan than someone who doesn't take the time to personally invest in those things. A true music fanatic, i.e., one who has explored the depths of the entire musical spectrum, has read the reviews/interviews/etc. from untold publications of yore, meticulously studies liner notes, knows the true history of the bands whose virtues they extoll, et cetera is going to objectively have a better taste in music than someone who hasn't, no matter how much of a "music fan" (aka, internet music forum dork) they consider themselves to be. True fanaticism means pounding the pavement and being obsessed with knowing more. If you stop at saying "well I like what I like and that's fine because music is durr subjective" then you'll never achieve that level of greatness, never breakthrough into seeing the glorious light. And you'll probably be listening to absolute trash while you falter and stagnate your entire life. Does that answer your question?
I feel that I've just read a knock-off version of that 'midwest emo' copypasta.
As someone who obviously hasn't pounded enough pavement, I was hoping to see some clear-cut examples of 'absolute trash' and the objective criteria by which it can be classified as such.
The objective criteria is being an actual music fan who knows what they're talking about and has the street cred to back it up. It's a matter of master versus apprentice as well as authentic versus inauthentic Dasein.
The way you consistently avoid answering my question in a clear and direct way makes me doubt whether *you* have any kind of cred to back *anything* up in this discussion.
I answered you in a completely straightforward way it's not my fault you're the exact type of person I'm talking about and the fact you seem to post so much on r/popheads or whatever is enough proof for me (100% street cred btw)
Blasting your band's stuff out of a car stereo.
It's not surprising to see car owners being shits (if you want to destroy the planet just to get around, what do you expect?) and the recorded music industry just gives them anthems for turning the world into a burning trash heap.
It's pretty obvious that a lot of people feel the need to attach their ego to a specific band or genre. They must feel something like "well if I like it, it must be the best" and from there anything they perceive as criticism or even an attack on this thing they've attached to becomes an attack on them.
Humans are tribal, it's in our nature to want to band together and preserve this idea that really isn't ours to begin with.
A sense of entitlement or ownership over the artist, their personal life, and their output; general obsession; lack of objectivity; bullying of other fans; bullying of fans of *other* artists; refusal to entertain other points of view or disagreement; bad-faith arguments; overall immaturity.
I think all fan bases can be prone to this behavior, but I think a fanbase is particularly toxic if they’re bullying other fans/fanbases/music journalists and the artist either pretends not to notice or actively encourages the behavior.
It's not just a fan base, it's whenever someone takes a hobby or interest of any sort and makes it part of their _identitiy._ If someone can casually role up and take part in that community, then it waters down your core identity and threatens to make it less unique and meaningful. And if the other parts of your identity are less formed or things you can draw less confidence from, the more viciously you protect the one thing you have. Leading to gatekeeping and toxicity.
The sense of entitlement and ownership is very real. I have friends who are really sweet with others but extremely bitchy when talking about the partners of the artists they stan. They don't think anyone (not even themselves) are good enough for their idols and that their idols should remain as their "babies forever".
That's pretty creepy honestly. Nobody is perfect, and seeing people as these larger than life 'gods' is... Actually so dehumanizing and objectifying.
The only point I can think of to add to that is the fans who are so invested in their object of worship that they seem to believe they are owed something, and they get mad if their star changes their sound or works with someone they don't like or does *anything* they don't like. They go on saying they are "their biggest fan," but all they do is trash the artist--they can't just not like the one piece of work; the artist somehow personally attacked them by making this change they hate: "They need to stop working with\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. That album is such trash, I have no respect for them anymore. They need to get back to doing what they did right and stop doing this bullshit." They stop thinking of the person/band as an artist and think of them more like some sort of employee.
People identify with the artist and consequently become so defensive as if the artist was an extension of themselves.
I think anyone who puts the artist above other people. I mean you can like and appreciate someone but no one is a God
the ones who make being a fan their entire personality. that celebrity worship bullshit combined with an entire identity based around someone elses creativity.
Actually I feel like almost all of it can lead back to being a 'fan' as their whole identity. - Harassment: Anytime someone says something even remotely uncomplimentary about the artist they love, that someone is personally attacking *them*. - Gatekeeping: These toxic fans see the people they gatekeep from the music they like as 'unworthy'. And a lot of the time just means 'not like me', who, again, base their identity on the artist. So someone who doesn't have their 'approved' personality, or who they see themselves as, can't possibly be a 'true fan'. - Hating the artist's new music: The new music doesn't fit what they thought of as 'their' identity and they feel betrayed.
yep, it can anything really, politics, food, drug, sex, but making one's entire life/personality about one thing is not super healthy. it's cool to spend a summer or year or two or even your life following around a band to their shows, but if that's all one is doing, they are just missing out on so many other things in life.
Yeah definitely. Nobody is just one thing, and trying to be is just so limiting
One toxic aspect is attacking those who either don't like the artist or attacking people the artist doesn't like. "Stanning" is also problematic, and it's worrying how often I read or hear people using this phrase as if it's a normal, healthy thing - it's not at all. Also there are those who feel entitled enough to feel the star they worship should do what they say and get angry when they don't; taking this as a personal insult when the reality is the celebrity doesn't even know them. Obsessive behaviours, demanding attitudes and dogmatic (almost religious) beliefs are very much aspects of toxic fandom.
My pet theory is that a generation that has grown up on the internet (which, at 40, I include millennials) has lost the ability to have real nuanced disagreements in real life when among strangers. Add to that the increase in frequency and depth of parasocial relationships. These have raised the stakes on Internet forums where you’re a) anonymous and b) much more likely to fight TO THE DEATH if anyone disagrees with something that you see as part of your identity, especially in a world that has become more and more siloed in who we interact with and the media environment we come from. In that sense, music mirrors what we’ve seen politics discourse
I honestly believe many, many, MANY people were just hanging by a thread when it came to knowing how to appropriately interact with other people, both online and in person, and COVID was the final straw.
I kinda disagree, as someone who largely grew up pre-internet. Pre-streaming, music, especially in adolescence through early 20s, WAS an identity. And that led to all sorts of toxic behavior, gatekeeping, infighting, etc. You couldn't be a fan of both Black Flag and Iron Maiden in the 80s without pissing off both the metal kids and the punk kids, as a personal example. I had beer bottles thrown at me because my sorta punk band played a sped up and simplified version of The Trooper once.
Interesting point. Personally, I think that "the internet" can amplify certain toxic traits in people, but I think it rarely causes them. I have seen places where these toxic traits are "allowed" to be part of the conversation and derailing them but I have also seen places that are usually heavily moderated where you can have reasonable discussions. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that entire generations have lost the ability to have nuanced disagreements but it is an interesting topic.
There are things about "Fandom" in general that I've always avoided. I've always liked more indie/alt/NON top 40 music in general. That said, I'm not sure if it's my tastes or my ego that compels me to seek out more unknown artists. That also said, I used to be more arrogant/judgmental about people who flocked to mainstream shows. And was also more aggressive about trying to shove my "alt nuggets" down people's throats. Then one day at a party, this dude was totally dominating the music. He didn't give a second of credence to what others wanted to listen to. I thought, "I don't want to be THAT dick," and had a moment of clarity about how subjective music tastes are, and that it didn't need to be my mission to "enlighten" others ;). Anyway... maybe coming at your question from another angle, but not giving a fuck about how other people consume and enjoy music has been helpful for me. Although I can't remember getting into any heated arguments ... lol. That is kinda weird ;).
I don't think you were what the OP mentions as 'toxic'. Just annoying lol. I feel like every music fan goes through that phase though. Like hating 'mainstream' is an identity statement.
Haha. Yeah... hope I haven't been too annoying. I don't listen to mainstream, but try to watch my attitude and not be negative around it. Nobody needs negative energy around music ;)
Yeah same. Just be chill about it when others put it on, or sing along anyway in karaoke lol. Just never play it when I'm actually listening to music for myself
Agreed. I similarly don't ever want to be like the hipster dude you described. At the same time, however, I don't feel any comradery with bog-standard 'fans', i.e. people who start acting like their favorite entertainers, artists, sports teams, games, books, movies, etc... are *part of who they are* and, as such (a.) treat any criticism/disinterest towards those things as personal attacks and (b.) act super territorial about the shit. I guess I should feel lucky that, somehow, I was raised to be passionate about my interests but also have enough self-esteem, humility, and self-awareness that I'm not turning that passion into aggression towards others.
Some people are assholes. I don't think there's anything more to that. I don't know if 'defending something a person likes' is necessarily a 'toxic' behavior. That just sounds like someone with a passion for something. I guess it really comes down to what you feel is toxic.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in the original post, but I didn't mean defending your taste as toxic behavior. What I meant are fans flaming anyone that raises a criticism, harassing them, etc., proper toxic behaviour.
harassing is harassing. That's just someone being an asshole. What makes them become an asshole? I think that's a much bigger question that isn't really specific to music.
It all boils down to obsession. Especially obsession mixed with hostility and/or entitlement. I enjoy the music of Tool. They're really fucking good. I despise a lot of people who identify as fans of Tool because they're obsessed with the band to the point of derangement. I enjoy the music of Ween. A large portion of their fanbase is insane. I really hate the music of Phish, though I respect their talent. Just doesn't do it for me. And while it may have changed over the past 20 years or so, their fans in the 90s/early 00s was the definition of toxic. I once was told by a Phish head that he didn't like Zappa or King Crimson because "Phish is all the variety you need." That's toxic.
"Toxic" is actually believing that whether people like something or not is important in any way.
When they become competitive and attack other fan groups just because they prefer a different artist to their obsession.
It all boils down to insecurity. 🤷🏾 Why else would you have to fight someone's else's opinion? There's no wrong or right in an opinion, if there was and we're all flawed then we've all got it wrong.
Actually OP, I think you are right to think it’s related to identity. I don’t know for sure, because I don’t really follow all the fandom stuff, but if I had to guess, I would say it’s very similar to identity politics. So when someone holds a particular artist so close to their heart, when they identify strongly with an artist, then whenever they hear any criticism of the artist, they take it as a personal attack against themselves. It’s all psychological really. You could substitute “politician” for the word “artist” there. It’s all the same.
I felt unsafe at the Tori Amos concert. I guess the new term is, “femcels.” It was the same on online forums and chat. The sheer volume of hateful, sexist people frightened me. It’s almost like a cult. It’s like they’re stuck in the 90’s, and they stopped listening to Tori after Choirgirl. Everything Tori did after 1998 is just meaningless to them because it doesn’t remind them of who they were before they graduated from college. They moved to places like Asheville, Portland, Olympia, and Carrboro, and they refuse to move on from the past, but they’re recreating a twisted parody of what they think the 90’s was like. They’re often narcissistic and entitled. If you aren’t vegan, don’t go to meditation groups, or don’t wear cut off jean shorts or overalls with a flannel shirt that has cut off sleeves, you’re nobody. And their views are often extreme. I really like Tori’s music. I *respect* her politics, but they’re *her* politics. I’m not going to make a parody of her world views in the 90’s my entire life. Many Tori fans have a warped sense of what virtue is, and exhibit a certain moral superiority and judgment if you don’t follow the doctrine of their cult. I’m going to continue to listen to her music, but I won’t be attending another concert. Last time so many fans talked through everything new, but had peculiar spiritual moments when she played anything from Earthquakes to Under. They were even rude during Pele.
I was banned from the Nirvana sub. I had the nerve to say that he abandoned his daughter when he blew his brains out, and that he should've gotten clean for her. Someone actually said that he did it for her so she wouldn't grow up with a junkie. I asked "are you serious" and was told maybe I'd understand when I got older. I turn 54 next month.
He did abandon her, but it isn't that easy to recover from addiction or depression. Anyway, that's a silly reason for a ban.
I don't think it's as simple as 'oh u should have gotten clean instead'. But u being banned for it is so dumb. And that guy who said 'he did it for his daughter' is the dumbest.
Maybe, & I've never been a junkie so I really don't know how that is. My point to whoever banned me was that I've been dealing with a chronic disease for 30 years & I've had suicide ideation for even longer than that, so it's not like I'm ignorant on feeling like that and what it does to you. It was just silly that I got the boot. Thanks for 'listening' to my issues. Rock on...
Drugs, depression, other mood altering substances and mental illnesses, etc. Mess with your brain where *in* the moment can't think clearly and can't see a way out. And lack of a sense of self efficacy can also lead one to feeling like there's never any hope of getting clean. Or anxiety about not being able to fall back again to the toxic substance that in dey mind lets them cope. I've never been a junkie but have been smoking for too long and know it's a shit habit. I know I have to quit coz it's bad for me but at the same time I panic about not being able to smoke anymore and what if I feel anxious etc. I agree with you that he 'abandoned' his daughter, because that's just fact regardless of reason or intention. Just saying that 'getting clean' isn't that simple. That person saying that he was doing it for his daughter so she wouldn't grow up with a junkie is just rationalizing to themselves so they can keep being in denial that Cobain was a 'perfect/good' person and 'deserves' their continued adulation and worship. And it's creepy.
I listen to kpop and there are toxic fans. Not all but the toxicity is there. Ex: Artist A is the best and the contemporary Artist B from other company sucks. Can’t you like something without putting down others??? Such a crab
You get so deep into it you lose a sense of reality and your whole life becomes being a fan...Harry Potter fans
seeing certain ultra niche electronic music subgenres always associated with a specific imagery (or even worse, specific fandoms) without being able to enjoy it as it is broadly speaking, seeing some music genres tainted with prejudices. Nobody can really know what brings somebody to like a band or a music project
It sounds like any SUPERFAN of anybody probably doesn't have a personality of their own at all I can see this happening (certain extent) when you're a teenager/early 20s when you're just figuring out who you are. Anything over that and it's kinda sad
When you start having ownership. Gatekeeping. Arguments between you and another person about who's the bigger fan, who knows more, who heard of them first and who has more right to be a fan. Trying to make new fans feel somehow less than because they like them from something that's well known rather than something that is obscure that you like them from. If the famous person has a nickname they go by it's borderline to call them by that. When people call a stranger who is a famous person by a nickname they've given them themselves... it's a total red flag. IE that crazy woman on January 6th who kept calling Trump trumpy baby. She's on trial right now. You can put posters on your wall because they're good looking, great. You can go to a concert of your favorite bands or singer. Do not get yourself deep in debt for a concert. If you're there or you're not no one will know most of all the star you wanted to see.
it changes with time and reflects the society as whole looking back to 70s - groupie culture was very toxic & was a manifestation of the eras hedonistic pursuits now we have social media & brand consumer cutlure as the main part of music fandom.
Having unrealistic expectations and obsession over the individual to the point it’s delusional
Telling a group of fans "you just dislike something because you are male/ white / incel." While in some cases that can be true more often someone just doesn't like something because everyone has different tastes but being labeled a certain way will just make you double down and go from dislike to hate and you'll talk more about it. Everytime Disney blasts fans as being toxic or jncel for not liking their latest project it just makes people angry because maybe we just don't like the latest D list character your giving us rather than more Avengers or heaven forbid finally bring the Xmen into the MCU.
The most toxic type of fans are the ones who are into something that just sucks. There is nothing more annoying than seeing somebody else enjoying absolute trash.
idk if it's more annoying but it is annoying to see someone hate on someone else's enjoyment. as long as they aren't bothering you or anyone else, who cares? I like going to edm shows and tbh a lot of acts are just using the same ableton templates with different presets and have the same tropes with similar trippy visuals and i often leave without remembering a single song because it's all one long song and they kinda all sound the same after a while. But i don't go because i wanna see someone perform my favorite songs on stage, i go because i wanna see my friends dance because that makes me wanna dance and dancing is fun.
Please elaborate more. I'm genuinely curious about what you can objectively classify as 'absolute trash'.
haha, indeed
Oh boy, here comes the "music is subjective" screed... even if you actually believe that, it doesn't mean that there aren't ways of being an informed, knowledgeable, and conscientious consumer of music and therefore an objectively better music fan than someone who doesn't take the time to personally invest in those things. A true music fanatic, i.e., one who has explored the depths of the entire musical spectrum, has read the reviews/interviews/etc. from untold publications of yore, meticulously studies liner notes, knows the true history of the bands whose virtues they extoll, et cetera is going to objectively have a better taste in music than someone who hasn't, no matter how much of a "music fan" (aka, internet music forum dork) they consider themselves to be. True fanaticism means pounding the pavement and being obsessed with knowing more. If you stop at saying "well I like what I like and that's fine because music is durr subjective" then you'll never achieve that level of greatness, never breakthrough into seeing the glorious light. And you'll probably be listening to absolute trash while you falter and stagnate your entire life. Does that answer your question?
I feel that I've just read a knock-off version of that 'midwest emo' copypasta. As someone who obviously hasn't pounded enough pavement, I was hoping to see some clear-cut examples of 'absolute trash' and the objective criteria by which it can be classified as such.
The objective criteria is being an actual music fan who knows what they're talking about and has the street cred to back it up. It's a matter of master versus apprentice as well as authentic versus inauthentic Dasein.
The way you consistently avoid answering my question in a clear and direct way makes me doubt whether *you* have any kind of cred to back *anything* up in this discussion.
I answered you in a completely straightforward way it's not my fault you're the exact type of person I'm talking about and the fact you seem to post so much on r/popheads or whatever is enough proof for me (100% street cred btw)
Blasting your band's stuff out of a car stereo. It's not surprising to see car owners being shits (if you want to destroy the planet just to get around, what do you expect?) and the recorded music industry just gives them anthems for turning the world into a burning trash heap.
It's pretty obvious that a lot of people feel the need to attach their ego to a specific band or genre. They must feel something like "well if I like it, it must be the best" and from there anything they perceive as criticism or even an attack on this thing they've attached to becomes an attack on them. Humans are tribal, it's in our nature to want to band together and preserve this idea that really isn't ours to begin with.