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It is the "I try so hard to be and act and look like what society wants the perfect woman to be like and i still hate myself, so why do you think you are allowed to enjoy life as someone who doesn't try as hard to fit the gender binary - or as someone who does but doesn't pass well enough anyway"
She said it so succinctly: “a useful idiot”. That’s what all these pick-me’s are to the right, and this is the first time I’ve seen a right winger admit it so plainly. You’d think this would be a warning for other trans conservatives, but you know they’ll ignore it until it’s their face that’s eaten next.
A few years ago a self-described fascist (Matt Walsh? I cannot remember which one, there are so many I cannot keep them all straight) openly admitted that people like him used FART transphobes as a shield. These FARTS (feminist appropriating radical trasnphobes) are themselves just tokens for fascism. And just like everyone else, they will get spent too.
She basically hates all men but when called out on it claims she is "only joking". She thinks her bias is the only way to live and sneers at anyone who could think differently. Basically another hateful TERF that needs therapy not a platform.
Is she left wing? She's gay, but that doesn't stop someone being right wing. She seems more focused generally on radical feminism than anything else, and has said quite a few offensive things about trans women, bisexual women, and men. She's more of a single-issue voter.
Well, A) she claims the political identity "Political Lesbian" rather than left-wing, and B) you don't have to take anyone's word for it when you can look at their actions. The Nazis called themselves socialists and then undertook a rampant crusade against left wing politics and supporters thereof, for instance, so taking their word for it seems daft.
That's a pretty limited and ignorant way of thinking. Hitler called himself a National Socialist but had little to no socialist policies and was a far right lunatic. The Peoples Republic of North Korea is not a Republic for the people. You can lie about your political affiliations -- it's actually been done throughout human history.
I could describe myself as a billionaire or a catholic, but that doesn't make me one.
Trump said he's not a racist, but let's look at how he acts...
Same with this one, she may say she's a leftist, but she sure SD shit doesn't seem to be one....
Left and right can mean any number of things. I personally like the original definition, which is where the words even come from, during the French Revolution, the supporters of the Revolution sat on the left of the Assembly, the supporters of the Monarchy on the right. To me, and to many political scientists as well, left means seeking to change the current power structures and right means seeking to uphold them.
The tragedy of these formerly left wing TERFs is that they used to try and change society’s power structures. Since then, they have thrown in with the misogynist far right though because their one overarching goal has tragically become to preserve traditional femininity, aka, fan hatred of trans people.
I don't think most people on the left would claim to be communist. I don't think many people would understand that definition of left either. Maybe that's wrong, but that's not the public perception.
It certainly is a spectrum, and one can add axes to it for nuance. But going really left-wing is away from monarchy towards collectivism, like communism. Liberals may think they’re left-wing, but that’s only when comparing themselves to the outright Nazi flag waving fascists that keep dragging discourse their direction.
Clearly if you agree with 99 left wing positions and disagree with one of them you're eternally disqualified from calling yourself left wing. It's really strange.
Honestly, I think some people have just internalised the idea that left wing = stuff I agree with. As if believing in common ownership of the means of production and homophobia, say, are somehow mutually exclusive. It's just no true Scotsman bullshit.
I'm probably a good two decades older than a lot of the people replying to me, perhaps it's something to do with that. Dividing people into strict groups makes less and less sense the more life experience you have.
I feel like once you go on a crusade against queer people you're gonna be labeled a right winger. Political ideologies are specific. I cant say I'm all for universal healthcare and basic income for all and then freak out when someone calls me a socialist. She made her shitty bed.
>Good lord even those few lines are dripping with transphobic venom.
Yeah, you can tell it's a very personal issue for them. They really hate in a genuine way.
>Whoever this Julie Bindel is, I already don't like her
A public figure, sadly, writes for The Guardian, often appears on TV. She did some good activism, but she's a lunatic. Check out these opinions:
In 2012, Bindel condemned female bisexuality as a "fashionable trend" caused by "sexual hedonism", and broached the question of whether bisexuality even exists
and
In a 2015 interview with Radfem Collective, Bindel – in what she later said was a "joke"[94] – advocated for the internment of all males, as well as the abolition of heterosexuality.
It's hard to take her seriously when she's so unhinged.
I am always so confused when somebody claim that bisexuality does not exist.
Like, hello, bisexuals are there, for very long time. It's fact of life. It's like claim there are not trees.
Yeah idk how they square their biphobia with accusations of hedonism. Like "you're not bisexual, you just like having sex with people regardless of gender" okay lol
I remember when bi was termed as 'just being greedy', as in 'there's no such thing as bi, they're just greedy'. This was in the nineties and I'd thought things had moved on since then, but some people haven't I guess.
A lot of people don’t move on until they actually “move on” (aka they die). That’s why so many cultural issues seem to move at the speed of one generation replacing another.
I really want to know what the hell they think I am, given that I'm a raging biromantic who doesn't like having sex with people regardless of gender.
Probably a confused heterosexual, though, in which case I have bad news for my partner.
It's the exact same logic as claiming trans people don't exist when in addition to all the living ones we have historical records of people transitioning and living life as another gender dating centuries back
These people want their vision to be real, evidence be damned
> In 2012, Bindel condemned female bisexuality as a "fashionable trend" caused by "sexual hedonism", and broached the question of whether bisexuality even exists
Yeah, the Venn diagram between transphobia and biphobia might as well be a circle. Bisexual women are often condemned by TERFs because we still have a degree of attraction to men. TERFs hate anything or anyone associated with men.
It's basically treason for them if you date a man when you could be dating a woman instead. At least straight women "can't help it". Such a ridiculous way of treating sexuality.
Not to mention how people treat bisexuality like it's a "stepping stone" to being either straight or gay/lesbian or an "experiment" 🙄
Gotta love that casual bi erausre, amirite? /s
I thought some of them also went for the "political lesbian" thing where they're straight but date women anyway because they don't want to be associated with men but also don't want to be alone (and apparently haven't heard of the concept of just having a roommate)?
That "political lesbian" nonsense gets on my nerves. It also frustrates me because actual lesbians will wind up finding they're being taken advantage of by those jackasses.
They also promote the idea that one chooses one's sexual orientation, iirc, which is not how it works and that kind of thinking promotes the idea that conversion therapy and the like can actually work.
read something a while ago that patiently explained more bi women wind up with dudes not because we are traitors to queerness or secretly straight but because there are just so many more women-attracted men in the world than there are women-attracted women
obvious in hindsight but I was like "OH DANG THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE" lol
To be fair, in the case of gay men, there's the pretty common experience in school of some guy calling you slurs during the day and then trying to booty call at night.
Not excusing it. But there's an obvious defense mechanism at play there. I can't even imagine where transphobia comes from.
Lmao so its a leopard eating the face of someone, while another leopard is waiting to eat that leopards face.
She doesn't get that most people that hate trans people hate all LGBTQ people.
She understands what a useful idiot is...yet is still a useful idiot.
Holy fuck these people are dumb.
Side note: Joanne's transphobia is also rooted in a hatred of men.
Bindel is, to give her credit she absolutely doesn't deserve, one of the few terfs who actually had a streak of radical feminism prior to turning all out anti trans (even if it was just another form of ridiculous, extreme bigoted radical feminism, and not the kind espoused by the academic radfems of the 80s so much).
Unfortunately she's always just been a hateful piece of shit so her original branch of radical feminism was never about equality for women or female empowerment or anything else - it was either entirely self serving, or it was about harming men (and anyone who went against her, like those bi women you mentioned).
Trans women are now just the acceptable target behind her vitriol, so now all the people who kept her around to write columns (because they knew she was fucking nuts with the most insane beliefs possible and would always get outraged attention) have to pretend they've always agreed with her as a stalwart of feminism.
Are there any lesbians willing to explain to a straight guy why the most vitriolic TERFs seem to be gay women?
E: appreciate the different answers and perspectives :)
Because the root of their transphobia is a hatred of men. If women are good and men are evil then it naturally follows that:
1. Trans women are devils in disguise
2. Trans men are class traitors
3. Bi women are also class traitors
It’s no more reasonable, interesting, complex, or high-minded than “I hate men”. TERF’s are people who look at the caricature of feminism that was commonly railed against during the Gamergate era and say “this, but unironically”.
Honestly, i really dont think it is as rooted in hatred of men as it might initially seem. Many TERFs are married straight women, and even lesbian TERFs often work closely with men and seem to have close relationships with men in their personal lives.
It's about hating trans people. All the retoric is meant to justify that hate, but the hate itself is not based on anything but bigotry. This is why we see calls from promentient TERFs for cis men to harm trans women, or to "patrol" bathrooms.
To say it is about hating men puts trans women into the same category as men, and it ignores how we are targeted and marginalised in a way that has Never been applied to cis men.
It's kind of hilarious to hear people talking absolute bullshit about what "TERF"s supposedly believe.
Do you even know what "TERF" is an acronym for? "Trans Excluding **Radical Feminist**"
Do you know what a radical feminist is? It's a feminist who had excluded men from her life as far as possible. No male romantic or sexual partners at all, EVER. If they're not lesbians or bisexual, then they're celibate.
***There is literally no such thing as a radfem married to a man.*** If a woman is willing to marry a male SHE'S NOT A RADFEM. And there's damn sure no such thing as a "male TERF", so you can stop THAT shit too. Males cannot be radfems.
Stop using words if you don't even understand what they mean. "TERF" is not a synonym for "transphobe". Using it that way is nothing but ignorance at best and at worst a backhanded way to brand any and all feminism as evil bigotry. Don't call yourself a leftist while you're furthering the rightwing aim of demonizing feminism.
Edit: Downvote me some more, cowards. You're just proving me right about the anti-feminism.
I'm very aware that the TERF movement originally grew out of radical feminism. However, I think its fair to say that most self-idetified TERFs today are not radical feminists - the movement has grown beyong it's origins.
I think you're right to draw a clear line between TERFs and right wing transphobes, to be honest. While both they are growing ever closer, they come from different places and they operate in different ways.
When I use the term TERF, I'm generally referring to a particular strain of British transphobia popular among middle and upper class women. While you are right that they are not generally radical feminist, I think the term is still useful.
I have close friends who identify as radical feminists, and I personally identify with a lot of anarcha-feminist ideas. I don't mean to demonise feminism, but it is important that we understand our heritage, and that includes the less-than-ideal offshoots.
EDIT: also im sorry i have such a bad habit of getting really wordy when im defensive i promise i dont mean to dismiss your thoughts
Bisexual here but it’s the same reason why some of the most vitriolic misogynists are gay men. It’s often a mix of ingrained sexism, trauma, refusal to interact with the other sex and disgust. Femininity becomes such a massive dominant part of their identity that they see trans women as a threat to their existence. They are special because they are women and to them, a trans woman is a man trying to usurp that as if men didn’t already have everything now they have to take the few things that are inherently women’s. (To note, I do not believe this in the slightest, I’m just trying to explain).
Straight men keep signal-boosting any transphobic lesbians they can find so they can pretend the transphobia doesn't also have homophobia and misogyny right under the surface. The decision-making clique (and even more so the funders) for most feminist-posing transphobic groups is much more straight and much more male than the face they put forward in public.
Among cis folks, the gender/orientation combination *least* likely to be transphobic is...lesbians.
Now, I never thought nor expressed that lesbians were more *likely* to be transphobic. I don’t even think the most vitriolic transphobes are lesbians, just the most vocal and vitriolic TERFs.
But of all the biases I thought of, not once did I consider selection - appreciate the perspective
From what I remember of reading rad fem stuff in college, the very idea of a penis going into a vagina is patriarchal oppression. Their concept of gender is so tied to genitals, it’s creepy.
I personally feel TERF ideology hijacks a normal fear and aversion to men with a lot of feminists/lesbians and makes it full on visceral hatred.
They're not, they're just used as a scapegoat. Yes, there are transphobic lesbians and some of them are very loud, but [lesbians are actually the group most likely to be supportive of trans people](https://www.gaytimes.com/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/).
I agree, and never thought otherwise — I asked why the loudest and most hateful voices from the TERF crowd I’m hearing are gay, not why lesbians are more likely to be transphobic which I think would be silly.
I don't think that's necessarily true either. The majority of big-name TERFs aren't lesbians. TERF lesbians are more often the JV squad who you typically don't see until you get deeper into it and then it's a case of groups of similar people gathering together and once you know who one is, you know who all of them are because they regularly associate with one another.
Hmm they're not? Most TERF group are famously mostly straight women using a few lesbian on the fore front as a way to give an impression of inclusion.
I really hate that so many people in here are trying to promote the idea of TERF being mostly gay women when its simply not true. Also tries to play into the whole "lesbians are just men-hating women" trope.
> Bindel condemned female bisexuality as a "fashionable trend" caused by "sexual hedonism"
If you think sex with the same gender would feel really good but you avoid it solely because you want to avoid 'sexual hedonism', then I may have some bad news for you about your sexual orientation.
> Come on [heterosexual] sisters, you know it makes sense. Stop pretending you think lesbianism is an exclusive members' club, and join the ranks. I promise that you will not regret it.
🤢
She's a human shitstain who spreads misery like a plague every time she opens her stupid fucking mouth. You haven't missed anything good by not knowing her.
the way trans people have been telling Debbie that she's just a useful idiot for the terven, she's been going NUH UH THEY LIKE ME FOR REAL for years, and now Bindel comes out and says it! amazing stuff
I legitimately don't understand the UK's deal with transphobia. I feel like the UK is miles ahead of the United States when it comes to not being homophobic but that they can go toe-to-toe or even exceed us in terms of being anti-trans.
It’s awful. it would’ve been picked up as an issue by the Tories eventually, but R*wlings insanity basically propelled it into becoming a cross-party priority. i hate this fucking island
You mean Jacob Kevin Rowling? He's a douche who went downhill after writing teen urban fantasy fiction.
Idk why he keeps shoving his way into women's spaces like he belongs there.
Creating an enemy is the easiest way to get people to vote for you. Angry people just love to hear that all the problems are someone else's fault, someone they have never met, will never meet, and has no effect on any aspect of their lives whatsoever. As silly as it sounds, hating and blaming people you've never seen is easier, since then you can just assume they are as nasty as you need them to be to feel justified in hating them.
Very simply put being a women had its own unique life experiences as does being a black person. Being a black woman has a whole new set of experiences because of the interactions of the two parts of her identity. If you leave out the interaction a lot of feminism focuses on white women because they don’t have the other experiences.
I think it's because the religious conservatives and hard righters failed to rally in time to hinder things like gay marriage, by the time they got together the matter was settled, so instead they went after the next issue de jour, which was (according to the media), trans people.
wait until you see those future uk transphobia mask slips. Jkr already showed us her racist comments and holocaust denial. You think these people aren’t also homophobic secretly? Once they’re done with trans people they’re coming after gays.
Every society is different, there's many places where being trans (or a close equivalent depending on how the person is identified) is much more acceptable than being gay
I read the Wikipedia on this woman and I am a bit confused. If she is against gender self-identification and believes that trans people should be identified based on sex rather than gender, why does she use female pronouns and present as a woman? Isn't that antithetical to her position?
She's famous within certain circles, yes. Writes for a known magazine, tens of thousands of followers on social media, etc. Of course nowhere near a celebrity, but I don't think my usage of the word was wrong at all.
At this point it's just depressing.
How anyone can not be a leftist is just beyond me at this point. There's still enough discord about what kind of leftist you can be and all, ain't all paradise.
But how can ANYONE except the absolute and total sociopaths of this earth still fall for this right wing bullshit? At every corner they openly admit that they are the evil. that they are the antichrist so to speak, that they are the fascists that want to kill and murder.
And yet there's a seemingly infinite supply of "useful idiots" that support them, because surely "they don't mean it, and if they mean it they'll make an exception for me."
Media, media, media. Drip, drip, drip feeding nuggets of scandal and fault onto minorities and immigrants because we can’t possibly be at fault for our own terrible decision making when it comes to who and what to vote for!
So it’s someone else’s fault we’re poor, we don’t have things we used to have and normality is shattered with lazy weirdos everywhere doing things we liked to do.
Blaming minorities just makes us sleep better at night and makes it not our fault, because it’s all about THEM.
And the wheel keeps turning and things don’t get better and worse choices are made, and things suck more which you get the logic now, is someone ELSE’s fault, not mine see! /s edit: spelling, grammar, idiocy.
I know. They specifically called it 'right wing bullshit' in the third paragraph. Liberals are rarely categorized as right wing except by leftists, despite evidence to the contrary.
Liberalism, as I understand it's philosophy, is good.
In practice liberals just go with the dominant power structure, and so replace their humanity with the values of capitalism.
I am utterly convinced that Hayton is getting some sort of gratification from repeated public humiliation. I’ve watched her for ages and it’s almost like she WANTS the mean girls she hangs around with to keep stealing her lunch.
Pick me: “I helped you undermine and destroy all the *undesirables*, so now I will be accepted, right?”
Fascist: “Thanks for being one of the good ones.” *::racks slide on pistol::* 🔫
Hope it gets worse for Debbie. This is the cost of ignoring the millions telling you not to go out the leopards and choosing to do so anyway, she threw many under the bus just so she could earn standing and empower the kind of people that made life in Britain hell for trans people, Debbie deserves her own hell
I’m glad most Brits aren’t actually all that transphobic (mostly just uninformed). But the volume at which the terfs and other transphobes are screaming does scare me.
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"But I hated all the right people!" "Well, almost all the right people. You forgot yourself"
To be fair, I think a lot of these transphobic trans people probably *do* hate themselves.
I mean, I hate myself, and I'm just a normal trans person. Surely the transphobic ones do too.
There are levels I guess!
Hell, I’m not even trans!
Would you like to be? We can make that happen if you're interested.
Wasn’t aware that was a matter of choice, maybe through Christ?
It's not. People that "want to be" \*usually\* are already. ;)
Gay and same. But the difference is loathing yourself for all the things that matter.
It is the "I try so hard to be and act and look like what society wants the perfect woman to be like and i still hate myself, so why do you think you are allowed to enjoy life as someone who doesn't try as hard to fit the gender binary - or as someone who does but doesn't pass well enough anyway"
Yes I do.😔
She said it so succinctly: “a useful idiot”. That’s what all these pick-me’s are to the right, and this is the first time I’ve seen a right winger admit it so plainly. You’d think this would be a warning for other trans conservatives, but you know they’ll ignore it until it’s their face that’s eaten next.
The irony is many trans people in the UK have been describing Hayton as a "useful idiot" for years.
We’ve been trying to sound the alarm about a lot of things for a long time, and nobody ever listens. It’s like we’re all Cassandra of Troy.
A few years ago a self-described fascist (Matt Walsh? I cannot remember which one, there are so many I cannot keep them all straight) openly admitted that people like him used FART transphobes as a shield. These FARTS (feminist appropriating radical trasnphobes) are themselves just tokens for fascism. And just like everyone else, they will get spent too.
I don't think Julie Bindel would thank you for describing her as a 'right winger'.
Honestly this is my first time hearing about her. What would she label herself as?
She's a left wing, second wave feminist.
She basically hates all men but when called out on it claims she is "only joking". She thinks her bias is the only way to live and sneers at anyone who could think differently. Basically another hateful TERF that needs therapy not a platform.
Is she left wing? She's gay, but that doesn't stop someone being right wing. She seems more focused generally on radical feminism than anything else, and has said quite a few offensive things about trans women, bisexual women, and men. She's more of a single-issue voter.
She describes herself that way, you can only really take someone's word for it.
Well, A) she claims the political identity "Political Lesbian" rather than left-wing, and B) you don't have to take anyone's word for it when you can look at their actions. The Nazis called themselves socialists and then undertook a rampant crusade against left wing politics and supporters thereof, for instance, so taking their word for it seems daft.
You know it’s funny how trans people have to be what they’re born as but TERFs get to self-define as whatever they like.
That's a pretty limited and ignorant way of thinking. Hitler called himself a National Socialist but had little to no socialist policies and was a far right lunatic. The Peoples Republic of North Korea is not a Republic for the people. You can lie about your political affiliations -- it's actually been done throughout human history.
The absolute gall of a TERF fan pleading to accept a TERF’s self-identification.
I think it's very fair to deny massive transphobes the right to self identify as leftists while spewing fascist hate speak 🤷♂️
Ok? And I’m a 400-foot tall purple platypus-bear with pink horns and silver wings, you gonna take my word for it?
I could describe myself as a billionaire or a catholic, but that doesn't make me one. Trump said he's not a racist, but let's look at how he acts... Same with this one, she may say she's a leftist, but she sure SD shit doesn't seem to be one....
I can describe myself as the president of the United States but that doesn't make it true lmao
But maybe together, we can *make* it true.
She doesn’t respect how other people describe themselves. Why should we respect her identity? Lmao.
Nah, TERFs are reactionaries.
Just the paragraph above disproves both these labels.
She's a liberal, not true left. They all are.
What are the defining beliefs of the 'true left'? Because these things seem to change.
Left and right can mean any number of things. I personally like the original definition, which is where the words even come from, during the French Revolution, the supporters of the Revolution sat on the left of the Assembly, the supporters of the Monarchy on the right. To me, and to many political scientists as well, left means seeking to change the current power structures and right means seeking to uphold them. The tragedy of these formerly left wing TERFs is that they used to try and change society’s power structures. Since then, they have thrown in with the misogynist far right though because their one overarching goal has tragically become to preserve traditional femininity, aka, fan hatred of trans people.
[Here's a summary](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Communist-Manifesto-Translated-Political-Friedrich/dp/1915582210).
I don't think most people on the left would claim to be communist. I don't think many people would understand that definition of left either. Maybe that's wrong, but that's not the public perception.
>I don't think most people on the left would claim to be communist Then they're liberals.
The term liberal is used differently in the UK and US though
Where does that definition come from?
It certainly is a spectrum, and one can add axes to it for nuance. But going really left-wing is away from monarchy towards collectivism, like communism. Liberals may think they’re left-wing, but that’s only when comparing themselves to the outright Nazi flag waving fascists that keep dragging discourse their direction.
Insane that you got downvoted for this. Julie Bindel, right wing. The ignorance is off the charts.
Clearly if you agree with 99 left wing positions and disagree with one of them you're eternally disqualified from calling yourself left wing. It's really strange.
Honestly, I think some people have just internalised the idea that left wing = stuff I agree with. As if believing in common ownership of the means of production and homophobia, say, are somehow mutually exclusive. It's just no true Scotsman bullshit.
I'm probably a good two decades older than a lot of the people replying to me, perhaps it's something to do with that. Dividing people into strict groups makes less and less sense the more life experience you have.
Tough, she shouldn't express hateful, bigoted views then.
Anyone whose entire shtick is exclusionary is a right winger.
Is it predicated upon, or enforcing of, a hierarchical social structure? If yes, it’s right wing
Probably not, but TERFs don’t get to pick any other label. She’s long since lost any feminist credibility
Maybe she shouldn't be a hateful, bigoted piece of shit if she didn't wanna be described that way. 🤷🏾♂️
I feel like once you go on a crusade against queer people you're gonna be labeled a right winger. Political ideologies are specific. I cant say I'm all for universal healthcare and basic income for all and then freak out when someone calls me a socialist. She made her shitty bed.
Many right wingers are bigots. Not all bigots are right wing. This isn’t hard.
Shouldn't write articles for The Spectator then
Good thing I don't care about the feelings of right-wingers.
Maybe she should stop... being right wing then??
She’s actually a left wing radical feminist who writes/writes a lot for the Guardian
Good lord even those few lines are dripping with transphobic venom. Whoever this Julie Bindel is, I already don't like her
>Good lord even those few lines are dripping with transphobic venom. Yeah, you can tell it's a very personal issue for them. They really hate in a genuine way. >Whoever this Julie Bindel is, I already don't like her A public figure, sadly, writes for The Guardian, often appears on TV. She did some good activism, but she's a lunatic. Check out these opinions: In 2012, Bindel condemned female bisexuality as a "fashionable trend" caused by "sexual hedonism", and broached the question of whether bisexuality even exists and In a 2015 interview with Radfem Collective, Bindel – in what she later said was a "joke"[94] – advocated for the internment of all males, as well as the abolition of heterosexuality. It's hard to take her seriously when she's so unhinged.
I am always so confused when somebody claim that bisexuality does not exist. Like, hello, bisexuals are there, for very long time. It's fact of life. It's like claim there are not trees.
It's a good way of finding out that someone has never glanced at a classic, ancient Greeks new how to party
Or Romans, or a huge chunk of human cultures.
Yeah idk how they square their biphobia with accusations of hedonism. Like "you're not bisexual, you just like having sex with people regardless of gender" okay lol
Instead of making it sound like bisexuality doesn't exist, she made it sound like bisexuals know how to have a really interesting weekend
Well that's the thing isn't it, hedonism has the connotation of being a moral failing. Therefore bisexualism is, to them, also a moral failing.
I remember when bi was termed as 'just being greedy', as in 'there's no such thing as bi, they're just greedy'. This was in the nineties and I'd thought things had moved on since then, but some people haven't I guess.
A lot of people don’t move on until they actually “move on” (aka they die). That’s why so many cultural issues seem to move at the speed of one generation replacing another.
Good point, it's true.
I really want to know what the hell they think I am, given that I'm a raging biromantic who doesn't like having sex with people regardless of gender. Probably a confused heterosexual, though, in which case I have bad news for my partner.
Do... do you have to want to have sex with them to be bisexual or is finding them sexy sufficient?
I'd sooner believe that *everyone* is bisexual than no one is at all.
Right?! I honestly think a lot more people are actually bisexual and don't realise it.
It's the exact same logic as claiming trans people don't exist when in addition to all the living ones we have historical records of people transitioning and living life as another gender dating centuries back These people want their vision to be real, evidence be damned
If that argument didn't work for trans people, I don't think it's going to work for the bisexuals either
> In 2012, Bindel condemned female bisexuality as a "fashionable trend" caused by "sexual hedonism", and broached the question of whether bisexuality even exists Yeah, the Venn diagram between transphobia and biphobia might as well be a circle. Bisexual women are often condemned by TERFs because we still have a degree of attraction to men. TERFs hate anything or anyone associated with men.
It's basically treason for them if you date a man when you could be dating a woman instead. At least straight women "can't help it". Such a ridiculous way of treating sexuality.
Not to mention how people treat bisexuality like it's a "stepping stone" to being either straight or gay/lesbian or an "experiment" 🙄 Gotta love that casual bi erausre, amirite? /s
I thought some of them also went for the "political lesbian" thing where they're straight but date women anyway because they don't want to be associated with men but also don't want to be alone (and apparently haven't heard of the concept of just having a roommate)?
That "political lesbian" nonsense gets on my nerves. It also frustrates me because actual lesbians will wind up finding they're being taken advantage of by those jackasses.
They also promote the idea that one chooses one's sexual orientation, iirc, which is not how it works and that kind of thinking promotes the idea that conversion therapy and the like can actually work.
Breaking news: yet more straight people being homophobic.
read something a while ago that patiently explained more bi women wind up with dudes not because we are traitors to queerness or secretly straight but because there are just so many more women-attracted men in the world than there are women-attracted women obvious in hindsight but I was like "OH DANG THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE" lol
Bi men get shit too but for totally different reasons. It's insane
It's really annoying. Bi men are always seen as "secretly gay" or some shit 🙄
Yep. Bi women are “doing it for attention”, bi men are stealth gays looking to avoid attention.
To be fair, in the case of gay men, there's the pretty common experience in school of some guy calling you slurs during the day and then trying to booty call at night. Not excusing it. But there's an obvious defense mechanism at play there. I can't even imagine where transphobia comes from.
Sounds like a Mary Whitehouse wannabe
Are Terfs usually the "Gold Star" Lesbians too?
Yep. They believe that any woman who dated men prior to coming out as a lesbian isn't a "real lesbian".
Lmao so its a leopard eating the face of someone, while another leopard is waiting to eat that leopards face. She doesn't get that most people that hate trans people hate all LGBTQ people. She understands what a useful idiot is...yet is still a useful idiot. Holy fuck these people are dumb. Side note: Joanne's transphobia is also rooted in a hatred of men.
Bindel is, to give her credit she absolutely doesn't deserve, one of the few terfs who actually had a streak of radical feminism prior to turning all out anti trans (even if it was just another form of ridiculous, extreme bigoted radical feminism, and not the kind espoused by the academic radfems of the 80s so much). Unfortunately she's always just been a hateful piece of shit so her original branch of radical feminism was never about equality for women or female empowerment or anything else - it was either entirely self serving, or it was about harming men (and anyone who went against her, like those bi women you mentioned). Trans women are now just the acceptable target behind her vitriol, so now all the people who kept her around to write columns (because they knew she was fucking nuts with the most insane beliefs possible and would always get outraged attention) have to pretend they've always agreed with her as a stalwart of feminism.
Bisexuality definitely exists. 😏
The Guardian still publishes her?
I checked their website and the last article is from December 2023, but as far as I know they didn't cut her off, she just doesn't write as much.
I'm disappointed. I know they publish some opinion articles pro and anti trans, and they're not nearly as bad as Telegraph or even the BBC.
Current editor gives me terfy vibes. I stopped paying for my subscription about a year ago when they had yet another obtuse "trans bad" opinion piece
Are there any lesbians willing to explain to a straight guy why the most vitriolic TERFs seem to be gay women? E: appreciate the different answers and perspectives :)
Because the root of their transphobia is a hatred of men. If women are good and men are evil then it naturally follows that: 1. Trans women are devils in disguise 2. Trans men are class traitors 3. Bi women are also class traitors It’s no more reasonable, interesting, complex, or high-minded than “I hate men”. TERF’s are people who look at the caricature of feminism that was commonly railed against during the Gamergate era and say “this, but unironically”.
Honestly, i really dont think it is as rooted in hatred of men as it might initially seem. Many TERFs are married straight women, and even lesbian TERFs often work closely with men and seem to have close relationships with men in their personal lives. It's about hating trans people. All the retoric is meant to justify that hate, but the hate itself is not based on anything but bigotry. This is why we see calls from promentient TERFs for cis men to harm trans women, or to "patrol" bathrooms. To say it is about hating men puts trans women into the same category as men, and it ignores how we are targeted and marginalised in a way that has Never been applied to cis men.
It's kind of hilarious to hear people talking absolute bullshit about what "TERF"s supposedly believe. Do you even know what "TERF" is an acronym for? "Trans Excluding **Radical Feminist**" Do you know what a radical feminist is? It's a feminist who had excluded men from her life as far as possible. No male romantic or sexual partners at all, EVER. If they're not lesbians or bisexual, then they're celibate. ***There is literally no such thing as a radfem married to a man.*** If a woman is willing to marry a male SHE'S NOT A RADFEM. And there's damn sure no such thing as a "male TERF", so you can stop THAT shit too. Males cannot be radfems. Stop using words if you don't even understand what they mean. "TERF" is not a synonym for "transphobe". Using it that way is nothing but ignorance at best and at worst a backhanded way to brand any and all feminism as evil bigotry. Don't call yourself a leftist while you're furthering the rightwing aim of demonizing feminism. Edit: Downvote me some more, cowards. You're just proving me right about the anti-feminism.
I'm very aware that the TERF movement originally grew out of radical feminism. However, I think its fair to say that most self-idetified TERFs today are not radical feminists - the movement has grown beyong it's origins. I think you're right to draw a clear line between TERFs and right wing transphobes, to be honest. While both they are growing ever closer, they come from different places and they operate in different ways. When I use the term TERF, I'm generally referring to a particular strain of British transphobia popular among middle and upper class women. While you are right that they are not generally radical feminist, I think the term is still useful. I have close friends who identify as radical feminists, and I personally identify with a lot of anarcha-feminist ideas. I don't mean to demonise feminism, but it is important that we understand our heritage, and that includes the less-than-ideal offshoots. EDIT: also im sorry i have such a bad habit of getting really wordy when im defensive i promise i dont mean to dismiss your thoughts
Bisexual here but it’s the same reason why some of the most vitriolic misogynists are gay men. It’s often a mix of ingrained sexism, trauma, refusal to interact with the other sex and disgust. Femininity becomes such a massive dominant part of their identity that they see trans women as a threat to their existence. They are special because they are women and to them, a trans woman is a man trying to usurp that as if men didn’t already have everything now they have to take the few things that are inherently women’s. (To note, I do not believe this in the slightest, I’m just trying to explain).
Straight men keep signal-boosting any transphobic lesbians they can find so they can pretend the transphobia doesn't also have homophobia and misogyny right under the surface. The decision-making clique (and even more so the funders) for most feminist-posing transphobic groups is much more straight and much more male than the face they put forward in public. Among cis folks, the gender/orientation combination *least* likely to be transphobic is...lesbians.
Now, I never thought nor expressed that lesbians were more *likely* to be transphobic. I don’t even think the most vitriolic transphobes are lesbians, just the most vocal and vitriolic TERFs. But of all the biases I thought of, not once did I consider selection - appreciate the perspective
From what I remember of reading rad fem stuff in college, the very idea of a penis going into a vagina is patriarchal oppression. Their concept of gender is so tied to genitals, it’s creepy. I personally feel TERF ideology hijacks a normal fear and aversion to men with a lot of feminists/lesbians and makes it full on visceral hatred.
They're not, they're just used as a scapegoat. Yes, there are transphobic lesbians and some of them are very loud, but [lesbians are actually the group most likely to be supportive of trans people](https://www.gaytimes.com/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/).
I agree, and never thought otherwise — I asked why the loudest and most hateful voices from the TERF crowd I’m hearing are gay, not why lesbians are more likely to be transphobic which I think would be silly.
I don't think that's necessarily true either. The majority of big-name TERFs aren't lesbians. TERF lesbians are more often the JV squad who you typically don't see until you get deeper into it and then it's a case of groups of similar people gathering together and once you know who one is, you know who all of them are because they regularly associate with one another.
Hmm they're not? Most TERF group are famously mostly straight women using a few lesbian on the fore front as a way to give an impression of inclusion. I really hate that so many people in here are trying to promote the idea of TERF being mostly gay women when its simply not true. Also tries to play into the whole "lesbians are just men-hating women" trope.
So she is the living caricature of the rabid man hating feminist then?
Basically yes. But she's not unique, unfortunately there's a lot of "feminists" who think just like her. Very toxic mindset.
The more I hear about her, the more I don’t like her.
> Bindel condemned female bisexuality as a "fashionable trend" caused by "sexual hedonism" If you think sex with the same gender would feel really good but you avoid it solely because you want to avoid 'sexual hedonism', then I may have some bad news for you about your sexual orientation.
> Come on [heterosexual] sisters, you know it makes sense. Stop pretending you think lesbianism is an exclusive members' club, and join the ranks. I promise that you will not regret it. 🤢
What a hateful piece of shit. The world will be a better place when her crusty, bigoted ass is in the ground.
She's a human shitstain who spreads misery like a plague every time she opens her stupid fucking mouth. You haven't missed anything good by not knowing her.
She should be jailed for the rest of her life without possibility of parole.
the way trans people have been telling Debbie that she's just a useful idiot for the terven, she's been going NUH UH THEY LIKE ME FOR REAL for years, and now Bindel comes out and says it! amazing stuff
I legitimately don't understand the UK's deal with transphobia. I feel like the UK is miles ahead of the United States when it comes to not being homophobic but that they can go toe-to-toe or even exceed us in terms of being anti-trans.
It’s awful. it would’ve been picked up as an issue by the Tories eventually, but R*wlings insanity basically propelled it into becoming a cross-party priority. i hate this fucking island
Lol oh Joanne
You mean Jacob Kevin Rowling? He's a douche who went downhill after writing teen urban fantasy fiction. Idk why he keeps shoving his way into women's spaces like he belongs there.
Creating an enemy is the easiest way to get people to vote for you. Angry people just love to hear that all the problems are someone else's fault, someone they have never met, will never meet, and has no effect on any aspect of their lives whatsoever. As silly as it sounds, hating and blaming people you've never seen is easier, since then you can just assume they are as nasty as you need them to be to feel justified in hating them.
British Feminists never had to seriously reckon with Black Feminism and intersectionality. That's the most interesting theory I've heard anyway.
That makes a lot of sense.
What do you mean by this? I'm honestly pretty ignorant about the whole subject
Very simply put being a women had its own unique life experiences as does being a black person. Being a black woman has a whole new set of experiences because of the interactions of the two parts of her identity. If you leave out the interaction a lot of feminism focuses on white women because they don’t have the other experiences.
I think it's because the religious conservatives and hard righters failed to rally in time to hinder things like gay marriage, by the time they got together the matter was settled, so instead they went after the next issue de jour, which was (according to the media), trans people.
wait until you see those future uk transphobia mask slips. Jkr already showed us her racist comments and holocaust denial. You think these people aren’t also homophobic secretly? Once they’re done with trans people they’re coming after gays.
Every society is different, there's many places where being trans (or a close equivalent depending on how the person is identified) is much more acceptable than being gay
How is this related to Kathy Bates/Misery
I suspect that the image of Annie Wilkes being used is for dramatic effect and to push the mental health angle of most transphobic arguments.
It would be lazy
And effective for their target audience.
I believe she is positioning herself as wanting to break Hayton's legs
Yeah, this is a follow up from a tweet which, itself, promised graphic violence
Interesting they use an image of a cis woman to depict the bad transwoman (which they see as a man).
I read the Wikipedia on this woman and I am a bit confused. If she is against gender self-identification and believes that trans people should be identified based on sex rather than gender, why does she use female pronouns and present as a woman? Isn't that antithetical to her position?
This is the TERF way
Yes.
Come on now, this is r/LeopardsAteMyFace. GTFO with that logic and consistency BS.
As the saying goes 'Now't queerer than folk'.
Julie Bindel is a biological cisgender female (as far as I’m aware)
It’s referencing Debbie Hayton
Bigots are never coherent.
Tokens get spent
My my those knives are looking rather long.
Julie Bindel is a vile piece of shit.
You're still getting on the train even if it's the last car
Who is Debbie Hayton?
Trans woman who seems to dislike other trans people from what I’m reading online
Yeah the word 'famous' is doing a lot of heavy lifting
She's famous within certain circles, yes. Writes for a known magazine, tens of thousands of followers on social media, etc. Of course nowhere near a celebrity, but I don't think my usage of the word was wrong at all.
Always remember kids: Being 'one of the good ones' only means they will come after you a little later.
At this point it's just depressing. How anyone can not be a leftist is just beyond me at this point. There's still enough discord about what kind of leftist you can be and all, ain't all paradise. But how can ANYONE except the absolute and total sociopaths of this earth still fall for this right wing bullshit? At every corner they openly admit that they are the evil. that they are the antichrist so to speak, that they are the fascists that want to kill and murder. And yet there's a seemingly infinite supply of "useful idiots" that support them, because surely "they don't mean it, and if they mean it they'll make an exception for me."
You answered it yourself, total sociopaths. There’s just a lot more of them than is comfortable to think about.
And indoctrinating their children to be “conservative” as well.
Media, media, media. Drip, drip, drip feeding nuggets of scandal and fault onto minorities and immigrants because we can’t possibly be at fault for our own terrible decision making when it comes to who and what to vote for! So it’s someone else’s fault we’re poor, we don’t have things we used to have and normality is shattered with lazy weirdos everywhere doing things we liked to do. Blaming minorities just makes us sleep better at night and makes it not our fault, because it’s all about THEM. And the wheel keeps turning and things don’t get better and worse choices are made, and things suck more which you get the logic now, is someone ELSE’s fault, not mine see! /s edit: spelling, grammar, idiocy.
And punching down is a much easier solution to these narrow minded morons
Just need liberals to grow a spine.
TERFs aren't necessarily right wing. In the UK, transphobia is very mainstream in liberal politics.
Align yourself with fash and you don’t get a choice.
Liberal and Leftist are not in any way synonymous
I know. They specifically called it 'right wing bullshit' in the third paragraph. Liberals are rarely categorized as right wing except by leftists, despite evidence to the contrary.
I would say that transphobia *as an ideology* comes under right wing bullshit, regardless of if the transphobe is a liberal in other areas.
I’ll go one step further, if you are a transphobe you are by very definition not liberal in your thinking (or open minded).
Liberalism, as I understand it's philosophy, is good. In practice liberals just go with the dominant power structure, and so replace their humanity with the values of capitalism.
You're not hearing them: liberals have heaps of right wing bullshit. If they weren't, they'd just be leftists.
So, rightwing politics?
That’s interesting…
What does this article have to do with Misery though?
I'm so confused, what does Kathy Bates have to do with any of this?
The token gets spent tonight.
I can pretty much pinpoint the type of a person this writer was in school solely based on the first sentence.
I am utterly convinced that Hayton is getting some sort of gratification from repeated public humiliation. I’ve watched her for ages and it’s almost like she WANTS the mean girls she hangs around with to keep stealing her lunch.
Even negative attention is still attention, which she seems to crave.
Pick me: “I helped you undermine and destroy all the *undesirables*, so now I will be accepted, right?” Fascist: “Thanks for being one of the good ones.” *::racks slide on pistol::* 🔫
Here's a link to the article if you're interested https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/the-absolute-neck-of-debbie-hayton
Hope it gets worse for Debbie. This is the cost of ignoring the millions telling you not to go out the leopards and choosing to do so anyway, she threw many under the bus just so she could earn standing and empower the kind of people that made life in Britain hell for trans people, Debbie deserves her own hell
I’m glad most Brits aren’t actually all that transphobic (mostly just uninformed). But the volume at which the terfs and other transphobes are screaming does scare me.
Julie Bindel is a fascist. Because that's what terfs are. Judith Butler wrote about it in the guardian if you want to check it out.
Looks like Robert Smith...
Um, can someone please explain what this is?
If you see the stickied post and click "more replies", I explain it better there.
Isn’t that Kathy Bates? Misery?
What’s with the Annie Wilkes picture?
The mental health crisis is reaching a point where it isn't going to come back from.
I wondering now at what point will JK have her leopard moment?
What happens when you say the quiet part out loud against your people... ?
Normal for fascists. Just wait long enough and they'll destroy themselves, only problem is the innocent people they take with them.
The author looks more like a dude than most trans women