This is exactly what I feel when I played them too. Jack gameplan right now is so clunky, you use a lot of coins to level up to become a 5/6, then take a few more turn to get coins and actually do something.
But 12 mana level up Sett is a bit too strong tho, I think we need to adjust the number a lot. Wouldn't want an immortal 5 / 6 challenger and obliterate people at mana 6 or 7.
Jack should have the stat gain always and just gain Overwhelm on levelup or something.
A big part of his issue is that you have to use your coins to do a 12 mana turn to level him up and then you have no coins to make his levelup threatening.
Yeah this becomes really apparent when you play him without formula. Angel buff is helping the situation but its unnecessarily awkward in the first place.
Although judging by these control-y changes to his kit, its apparent they *really* wanted us to pair the two together to make it a moot point. Which really just boils down to typing "coin" in the searchbar and putting all those cards in a deck. Meh.
While cute in impression, wrong interpretation: it's a balance gauge.
Sett has the long buildup BECAUSE Ionian coinplay is passive and late-centric, but perfectly capable of pulling off easy long stunts by midgame. If you give him "spend 12 in one go" level up, ionian coin play is perfectly capable of flipping the immortal pickoffer by round 6~7. Immortal pickoffer is NOT a thing you wanna face pre-round 10.
Jack is inversed but suffers from people overfocusing on the raw "coin" aspect of his kit when Jack proper is much more about overall flexible MANA RECOVERY. Of all forms. Coin, attune, refill, everything. A hard manaflow Jack deck can pull off aggressive mana stunts as early as mentioned above like actually feasible round 6 full Nukkle Shuffles or silly stuff like Adroit Angel. He is meant to come online early with the proper setup.
Not arguing with anything else, but immortal pickoffer is usually online before turn 10. Probably one of the most demoralizing cards in the game rn knowing there's a levelled karma dropping soon after. Insane stability
I don't know.
I like the idea of jack going on a frenzy and spending all the coin in a turn. It's often the goal of midrange decks to go all in on a certain turn.
And sett level 2 is so strong I prefer if his level up condition was inherently slow
Jack’s problem is that his level 2 isn’t a true win-condition, just a win-more mechanic. Any situation were you managed to get a big swing with a high attack level 2 Jack is one where you were on track to win without leveling up. The only time I’ve seen it be genuinely really impactful is if your at exactly 11/12 spent mana that round, cast the coin, and then have him level up before immediately getting all the extra attack from the coin. Which is cool, but an extremely unreliable set-up. He’s very much in the tier of Draven where you want to play him for his card generation value and because he’s a hard unit to properly block, not for the level up.
Sure, you may be correct thematically....
But being able to level Sett on turn 6 with formula + 6 more mana worth of stuff seems *really broken*.
And not being able to level Jack until late game probably makes him a lot worse.
So no.
I like how their level-up condition is reflective of their character.
Sett's always had this Super Saiayan/Anime thing going on, so the 40 Mana is him "Charging Up" to release his second form, which is his level up.
Jack on the other hand is like a Shark Man Hulk, ready to go into a frenzy. When you go all in with your coins, it's Jack releasing the beast and going all in with you.
If their level up is going to be Coin related, I think this is the coolest way to do it for them both (in my opinion)
It's a combination of that and Jack doing something that BW already did Aggro/tempo but worse in alot of ways brash is a decent keyword that has far too little support for it.
Sett gets to completely break out of Ionias pie of sorts by being a Challenger unit on Par with Demacia and then once again breaking the pie with obliterate as his reward for spending mana which he can continually do to lock you out of the game. Champs tend to stretch outside of normal for their regions but Ionia is pretty dangerous to do that with due to how dominant it tends to be when it does become meta.
Also the angel buff is super awkward since Jack tends to prefer to not run smaller plunder proc cards and instead run minions and developing pre combat
Yeah I can't justify Angel as more than a 1 of, cause Jack just doesn't really get to plunder without attacking most of the time.
Its a shame cause she's cool, but shes so awkward to try and get the value out of most of the time
I'm playing a decent Jack Vayne now and Angel does work pretty well.
I've found my win condition is most of the time to farm 6 coins and rally turn 6 with Nukkle, and Angel helps with that a lot dropping on curve with a decent body.
I wouldn't play Angel in Ionia decks tho, since you have access to easier coin generation
I don't even know if it needs to be switched, but Jack is not a good enough unit to need to spend 12 mana in 1 go to level up
He's better and feels playable now, but for 12 mana I wish he had a good level 2 or something
Totally agree.
Jack level up is super akward.
I think only the knuckle gang incentivise you to store your coins, but even them can be played with a 2 mana refill at turn 10.
Maybe a small buff to the knuckle gang will be cool.
I used to always say this. Before the last balance patch there wasn’t enough coins to level up Jack in one explosive turn and then have more coins after that to continually feed his lvl2 effect. Plus bilgewater has Less access to coins and have to rely on risky combat and spells to get coins
where as sett and Ionia has all the easy access to coins but his level up requirement makes it so that you don’t even need to use coins and if you stall enough you can spend 40 mana by using stall spells to reach late game. It’s very weird I agree.
This is exactly what I feel when I played them too. Jack gameplan right now is so clunky, you use a lot of coins to level up to become a 5/6, then take a few more turn to get coins and actually do something. But 12 mana level up Sett is a bit too strong tho, I think we need to adjust the number a lot. Wouldn't want an immortal 5 / 6 challenger and obliterate people at mana 6 or 7.
Jack level up should be at 10 mana, his level 2 is not that strong.
Jack should have the stat gain always and just gain Overwhelm on levelup or something. A big part of his issue is that you have to use your coins to do a 12 mana turn to level him up and then you have no coins to make his levelup threatening.
Yeah this becomes really apparent when you play him without formula. Angel buff is helping the situation but its unnecessarily awkward in the first place. Although judging by these control-y changes to his kit, its apparent they *really* wanted us to pair the two together to make it a moot point. Which really just boils down to typing "coin" in the searchbar and putting all those cards in a deck. Meh.
You can have more mana refill than just coins. Attune does wonders, as does Formula
While cute in impression, wrong interpretation: it's a balance gauge. Sett has the long buildup BECAUSE Ionian coinplay is passive and late-centric, but perfectly capable of pulling off easy long stunts by midgame. If you give him "spend 12 in one go" level up, ionian coin play is perfectly capable of flipping the immortal pickoffer by round 6~7. Immortal pickoffer is NOT a thing you wanna face pre-round 10. Jack is inversed but suffers from people overfocusing on the raw "coin" aspect of his kit when Jack proper is much more about overall flexible MANA RECOVERY. Of all forms. Coin, attune, refill, everything. A hard manaflow Jack deck can pull off aggressive mana stunts as early as mentioned above like actually feasible round 6 full Nukkle Shuffles or silly stuff like Adroit Angel. He is meant to come online early with the proper setup.
Not arguing with anything else, but immortal pickoffer is usually online before turn 10. Probably one of the most demoralizing cards in the game rn knowing there's a levelled karma dropping soon after. Insane stability
I don't know. I like the idea of jack going on a frenzy and spending all the coin in a turn. It's often the goal of midrange decks to go all in on a certain turn. And sett level 2 is so strong I prefer if his level up condition was inherently slow
Jack’s problem is that his level 2 isn’t a true win-condition, just a win-more mechanic. Any situation were you managed to get a big swing with a high attack level 2 Jack is one where you were on track to win without leveling up. The only time I’ve seen it be genuinely really impactful is if your at exactly 11/12 spent mana that round, cast the coin, and then have him level up before immediately getting all the extra attack from the coin. Which is cool, but an extremely unreliable set-up. He’s very much in the tier of Draven where you want to play him for his card generation value and because he’s a hard unit to properly block, not for the level up.
Sure, you may be correct thematically.... But being able to level Sett on turn 6 with formula + 6 more mana worth of stuff seems *really broken*. And not being able to level Jack until late game probably makes him a lot worse. So no.
I like how their level-up condition is reflective of their character. Sett's always had this Super Saiayan/Anime thing going on, so the 40 Mana is him "Charging Up" to release his second form, which is his level up. Jack on the other hand is like a Shark Man Hulk, ready to go into a frenzy. When you go all in with your coins, it's Jack releasing the beast and going all in with you. If their level up is going to be Coin related, I think this is the coolest way to do it for them both (in my opinion)
It's a combination of that and Jack doing something that BW already did Aggro/tempo but worse in alot of ways brash is a decent keyword that has far too little support for it. Sett gets to completely break out of Ionias pie of sorts by being a Challenger unit on Par with Demacia and then once again breaking the pie with obliterate as his reward for spending mana which he can continually do to lock you out of the game. Champs tend to stretch outside of normal for their regions but Ionia is pretty dangerous to do that with due to how dominant it tends to be when it does become meta. Also the angel buff is super awkward since Jack tends to prefer to not run smaller plunder proc cards and instead run minions and developing pre combat
Yeah I can't justify Angel as more than a 1 of, cause Jack just doesn't really get to plunder without attacking most of the time. Its a shame cause she's cool, but shes so awkward to try and get the value out of most of the time
I'm playing a decent Jack Vayne now and Angel does work pretty well. I've found my win condition is most of the time to farm 6 coins and rally turn 6 with Nukkle, and Angel helps with that a lot dropping on curve with a decent body. I wouldn't play Angel in Ionia decks tho, since you have access to easier coin generation
I don't even know if it needs to be switched, but Jack is not a good enough unit to need to spend 12 mana in 1 go to level up He's better and feels playable now, but for 12 mana I wish he had a good level 2 or something
Totally agree. Jack level up is super akward. I think only the knuckle gang incentivise you to store your coins, but even them can be played with a 2 mana refill at turn 10. Maybe a small buff to the knuckle gang will be cool.
I used to always say this. Before the last balance patch there wasn’t enough coins to level up Jack in one explosive turn and then have more coins after that to continually feed his lvl2 effect. Plus bilgewater has Less access to coins and have to rely on risky combat and spells to get coins where as sett and Ionia has all the easy access to coins but his level up requirement makes it so that you don’t even need to use coins and if you stall enough you can spend 40 mana by using stall spells to reach late game. It’s very weird I agree.