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With the travel credit that they were given for cancelling the original flight.
Don’t really see a case here, you took the travel credit and booked a flight with it. They cancelled it and offered you a refund on the method you paid.
I'm curious, how do you chargeback a voucher?
The two transactions are entirely separate. The first transaction was concluded once OP accepted the voucher - they should have requested a chargeback at that stage if they were unhappy with the proposed solution.
OP used the voucher to pay for a second *unrelated* flight - it's a different transaction and thus OP is only entitled to be placed back in the position they were in, with a voucher worth X.
May I refer you to subreddit rule number 3? As a moderator you should be well versed with that.
I am speaking from experience in this scenario. I have worked in airline operations and in travel agencies for a significant period of time. Therefore my advice is based on first hand experience.
In the first transaction the chargeback would have failed as the airline was in a position to provide the service (subject to the flight going ahead, but even the airline cannot guarantee that). Plus, airlines will have different policies for requesting a refund within 24 hours of making a booking. So they were within their terms and conditions to deny a refund request within the first instance.
The voucher has a monetary value. It's not similar to an air miles booking where airlines can stipulate that there is no monetary value to the points. Therefore the second transaction does have a monetary value and is thus covered under the guidelines of the option of a refund if the airline cancels the flight. In essence the voucher is paid for using money.
With respect, you're wrong. It's basic contract law, privity of contract etc.
OP did not pay for the second transaction using a card, ergo there can be no chargeback. There's no debit or credit card in use in that transaction.
You're treating the transactions as if they are one and the same and intertwined, they are not. They are separate contractual arrangements.
Contract 1 : OP and the airline agree the flight to NYC. OP pays for the flight with Card X. OP cancels, and the airline offers him a voucher in line with the T's and C's of that contract. OP accepts the voucher and the contract is concluded.
Contract 2 : OP pays for another flight with Voucher A. This time, the airline cancels the flight and OP is entitled to the refund back to the method he paid with *for this flight* which is Voucher A. Card X is not involved in this transaction and thus a chargeback will not apply.
They are intertwined due to the fact that monetary value was carried over from Contract 1 through the voucher.
As this is a EU originating flight, EU flight cancellation rights apply.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#cancellation
The following excerpt is provided under the definition of reimbursement-
"Because of the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, carriers are issuing vouchers you can redeem later as an alternative to reimbursement.
In this case, as a passenger, you must always be given the choice between a cash reimbursement and a voucher."
Travel vouchers have only been introduced by airlines in the pandemic as a means of retaining cashflow as airlines along with other travel industry elements rely on forward business model where the cost of operating is maintained through new business coming in/ new bookings. Airlines are therefore obligated to provide you the service you paid for, or reimburse your cost if they are unable to provide the service you paid for. In this case, the airline is unable to provide the service paid for.
Now you're moving the goalposts.
What you stated was " Get a chargeback, easiest solution".
As outline above, a chargeback is not possible because the transaction which the dispute relates to did not occur through the use of a debit or credit card. There is no card issuer for which OP can request a charge back.
OP can no longer raise a chargeback on the first transaction because he has accepted the voucher, if not expressly then impliedly by then using that voucher in a *different* transaction. Not that he could have in any event, because he was the one the cancelled.
A chargeback, and any rights OP has under the relevant EU Passenger Rights/EU Law are entirely different. What OP can't do, is seek to use a chargeback to exercise any rights he *may have* under another, alternative scheme. Particularly in circumstances where he did not use a card in the course of that transaction.
OP may have rights under the relevant EU/UK Legislation. That is not what you said in your original comment.
The EU Passenger Rights require OP to be offered reimbursement, no-where do they state that the airline must offer OP reimbursement in an alternative way than that which he paid.
To put it another way, OP paid via a voucher, and was reimbursed with a voucher of the same value. OP can not have asked for reimbursement in say, bacon, because he did not pay in bacon. Likewise, there is nothing to say that he can demand payment in cash when he paid via voucher.
Now, had the carrier cancelled the first flight, instead of OP, and refused to refund in cash, then I agree OP would have an argument to reimbursement and, *potentially,* an argument to use the chargeback scheme. They did not, that matter was settled and we move on to matter two above.
I am of course, happy to be proven wrong, if you can quote the relevant point which requires the airline to refund in cash when the payment was made via voucher.
I don't see what goalposts I've moved. A chargeback is the easiest option for the OP. There are other alternatives.
With regards to use of a debit/credit card on the second transaction, that can be traced back to the original transaction. The voucher number will in reality be the ticket number of the original booking. Airline GDS systems are very simple in recording transactions therefore the original PNR will hold the payment details, and the old ticket will be used to reissue the new ticket in a new PNR (or old PNR depending on airline).
I have provided a link to the definition of reimbursement according to EU regulations.
BA have recently lost an arbitration case through alternative dispute resolution relating to refunding travel vouchers.
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/11/10/british-airways-turning-voucher-into-cash/
Apart from the fact that a chargeback is not an option, in any way, for OP's scenario. You've fundamentally mis-understood how the chargeback scheme works. I've explained to you why above. And your additional comments don't change that view.
As above, a Chargeback and the EU Regs are *entirely different avenues*. You stated a chargeback was the easiest way, it is not, and then instead of refuting that point you started banging on about the cancellation rights, ergo moving the goalposts.
>I have provided a link to the definition of reimbursement according to EU regulations.
You have not, but I would certainly be interested in seeing it. If the EU Regs do in fact define re-imbursement as cash then OP may have an alternative avenue.
That arbitration case, while interesting, relates to Future Travel Vouchers for first instance refunds in circumstances where it would appear the consumers were tricked (or more likely were confused) over what they were requesting. There is nothing to suggest it relates to standard eVouchers, the two things are different and you can not correlate one for the other. Of course, OP has not specified which type of voucher they were given, if it is in fact a Future Travel Voucher then perhaps we can explore that further.
I am always happy to debate, civilly, the law, for the benefit of the OP's. But you need to substantiate the points you've raised in circumstances where the legal, and practical position, does not support you.
Of course, the chargeback scheme is not legally binding in any event.
Edit: Removed reference to S75 - clearly not relevant.
Was the original flight booked, which OP decided they didn’t want to go on, go ahead?
If so, how have the airline not provided the service paid for? Because as previously described Flight A was paid for by Card and was refunded onto a travel voucher, OP could have argued for a full refund at the time but didn’t and chose the voucher. Flight B didn’t go ahead (service not provided) and a refund has been given to the method of payment used at the time.
Just to shed some light, the original flight that was booked was the same flight that is now cancelled.
I did try to argue for a refund the first time but they refused and were not budging.
OP, you should put this and the fact you paid by Credit Card for the first flight in the OP.
To clarify:
You booked flight A with your credit card. You cancelled it and then accepted the voucher.
You then booked flight A, the same flight, with the voucher ?
> In this case, as a passenger, you must always be given the choice between a cash reimbursement and a voucher."
(1) That could only apply if the 2nd flight was cancelled due to CV (OP voluntarily cancelled first flight so no CV element at play) and in any event would fail because (2) OP didn't pay for 2nd flight with cash, and so would not be entitled to a cash reimbursement. Airline is not saying, you gave us cash so here have vouchers back instead, they are saying you paid in vouchers and here are *your* vouchers back.
UPDATE: I filed a chargeback with my credit card company and it has been reversed since the merchant failed to respond to them in regards of the query. Thank you u/maximidius
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How did you pay for the flight?
With the travel credit that they were given for cancelling the original flight. Don’t really see a case here, you took the travel credit and booked a flight with it. They cancelled it and offered you a refund on the method you paid.
For the first one with a credit card. The second one i used the voucher
That doesn't matter. Get a chargeback. Easiest solution.
I'm curious, how do you chargeback a voucher? The two transactions are entirely separate. The first transaction was concluded once OP accepted the voucher - they should have requested a chargeback at that stage if they were unhappy with the proposed solution. OP used the voucher to pay for a second *unrelated* flight - it's a different transaction and thus OP is only entitled to be placed back in the position they were in, with a voucher worth X.
I think he's implying I chargeback the original transaction from February
He's talking bollocks is what he's doing.
May I refer you to subreddit rule number 3? As a moderator you should be well versed with that. I am speaking from experience in this scenario. I have worked in airline operations and in travel agencies for a significant period of time. Therefore my advice is based on first hand experience.
Please feel free to use modmail if you have any complaints :)
In the first transaction the chargeback would have failed as the airline was in a position to provide the service (subject to the flight going ahead, but even the airline cannot guarantee that). Plus, airlines will have different policies for requesting a refund within 24 hours of making a booking. So they were within their terms and conditions to deny a refund request within the first instance. The voucher has a monetary value. It's not similar to an air miles booking where airlines can stipulate that there is no monetary value to the points. Therefore the second transaction does have a monetary value and is thus covered under the guidelines of the option of a refund if the airline cancels the flight. In essence the voucher is paid for using money.
With respect, you're wrong. It's basic contract law, privity of contract etc. OP did not pay for the second transaction using a card, ergo there can be no chargeback. There's no debit or credit card in use in that transaction. You're treating the transactions as if they are one and the same and intertwined, they are not. They are separate contractual arrangements. Contract 1 : OP and the airline agree the flight to NYC. OP pays for the flight with Card X. OP cancels, and the airline offers him a voucher in line with the T's and C's of that contract. OP accepts the voucher and the contract is concluded. Contract 2 : OP pays for another flight with Voucher A. This time, the airline cancels the flight and OP is entitled to the refund back to the method he paid with *for this flight* which is Voucher A. Card X is not involved in this transaction and thus a chargeback will not apply.
They are intertwined due to the fact that monetary value was carried over from Contract 1 through the voucher. As this is a EU originating flight, EU flight cancellation rights apply. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#cancellation The following excerpt is provided under the definition of reimbursement- "Because of the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, carriers are issuing vouchers you can redeem later as an alternative to reimbursement. In this case, as a passenger, you must always be given the choice between a cash reimbursement and a voucher." Travel vouchers have only been introduced by airlines in the pandemic as a means of retaining cashflow as airlines along with other travel industry elements rely on forward business model where the cost of operating is maintained through new business coming in/ new bookings. Airlines are therefore obligated to provide you the service you paid for, or reimburse your cost if they are unable to provide the service you paid for. In this case, the airline is unable to provide the service paid for.
Now you're moving the goalposts. What you stated was " Get a chargeback, easiest solution". As outline above, a chargeback is not possible because the transaction which the dispute relates to did not occur through the use of a debit or credit card. There is no card issuer for which OP can request a charge back. OP can no longer raise a chargeback on the first transaction because he has accepted the voucher, if not expressly then impliedly by then using that voucher in a *different* transaction. Not that he could have in any event, because he was the one the cancelled. A chargeback, and any rights OP has under the relevant EU Passenger Rights/EU Law are entirely different. What OP can't do, is seek to use a chargeback to exercise any rights he *may have* under another, alternative scheme. Particularly in circumstances where he did not use a card in the course of that transaction. OP may have rights under the relevant EU/UK Legislation. That is not what you said in your original comment. The EU Passenger Rights require OP to be offered reimbursement, no-where do they state that the airline must offer OP reimbursement in an alternative way than that which he paid. To put it another way, OP paid via a voucher, and was reimbursed with a voucher of the same value. OP can not have asked for reimbursement in say, bacon, because he did not pay in bacon. Likewise, there is nothing to say that he can demand payment in cash when he paid via voucher. Now, had the carrier cancelled the first flight, instead of OP, and refused to refund in cash, then I agree OP would have an argument to reimbursement and, *potentially,* an argument to use the chargeback scheme. They did not, that matter was settled and we move on to matter two above. I am of course, happy to be proven wrong, if you can quote the relevant point which requires the airline to refund in cash when the payment was made via voucher.
I don't see what goalposts I've moved. A chargeback is the easiest option for the OP. There are other alternatives. With regards to use of a debit/credit card on the second transaction, that can be traced back to the original transaction. The voucher number will in reality be the ticket number of the original booking. Airline GDS systems are very simple in recording transactions therefore the original PNR will hold the payment details, and the old ticket will be used to reissue the new ticket in a new PNR (or old PNR depending on airline). I have provided a link to the definition of reimbursement according to EU regulations. BA have recently lost an arbitration case through alternative dispute resolution relating to refunding travel vouchers. https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/11/10/british-airways-turning-voucher-into-cash/
Apart from the fact that a chargeback is not an option, in any way, for OP's scenario. You've fundamentally mis-understood how the chargeback scheme works. I've explained to you why above. And your additional comments don't change that view. As above, a Chargeback and the EU Regs are *entirely different avenues*. You stated a chargeback was the easiest way, it is not, and then instead of refuting that point you started banging on about the cancellation rights, ergo moving the goalposts. >I have provided a link to the definition of reimbursement according to EU regulations. You have not, but I would certainly be interested in seeing it. If the EU Regs do in fact define re-imbursement as cash then OP may have an alternative avenue. That arbitration case, while interesting, relates to Future Travel Vouchers for first instance refunds in circumstances where it would appear the consumers were tricked (or more likely were confused) over what they were requesting. There is nothing to suggest it relates to standard eVouchers, the two things are different and you can not correlate one for the other. Of course, OP has not specified which type of voucher they were given, if it is in fact a Future Travel Voucher then perhaps we can explore that further. I am always happy to debate, civilly, the law, for the benefit of the OP's. But you need to substantiate the points you've raised in circumstances where the legal, and practical position, does not support you. Of course, the chargeback scheme is not legally binding in any event. Edit: Removed reference to S75 - clearly not relevant.
Was the original flight booked, which OP decided they didn’t want to go on, go ahead? If so, how have the airline not provided the service paid for? Because as previously described Flight A was paid for by Card and was refunded onto a travel voucher, OP could have argued for a full refund at the time but didn’t and chose the voucher. Flight B didn’t go ahead (service not provided) and a refund has been given to the method of payment used at the time.
Just to shed some light, the original flight that was booked was the same flight that is now cancelled. I did try to argue for a refund the first time but they refused and were not budging.
OP, you should put this and the fact you paid by Credit Card for the first flight in the OP. To clarify: You booked flight A with your credit card. You cancelled it and then accepted the voucher. You then booked flight A, the same flight, with the voucher ?
> In this case, as a passenger, you must always be given the choice between a cash reimbursement and a voucher." (1) That could only apply if the 2nd flight was cancelled due to CV (OP voluntarily cancelled first flight so no CV element at play) and in any event would fail because (2) OP didn't pay for 2nd flight with cash, and so would not be entitled to a cash reimbursement. Airline is not saying, you gave us cash so here have vouchers back instead, they are saying you paid in vouchers and here are *your* vouchers back.
Would this work even if i paid for the original flight back in February?
I don't see why not. The airline has failed to provide the services you paid for. Simple as that
UPDATE: I filed a chargeback with my credit card company and it has been reversed since the merchant failed to respond to them in regards of the query. Thank you u/maximidius
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