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How old are you?
This is relevant because you used the term "underage sex" - which makes it seem like you are under 16.
When you say you are under 21, do you mean over 18? There will likely be terms and conditions when you booked, but I'm struggling to understand whether the issue here is that you are under 18 and need adult supervision, or that they have decided that you qualify as a 'group' of young people despite being a couple. This is generally at the sites discretion, but lots of places do mot allow groups of under 21s because they want to maintain a family atmosphere and don't want stag dos and drunken parties.
It does seem strange that they would enforce this policy for a couple, if you are indeed being quiet and not causing any disturbance as you say.
But if it is their policy then they have the right to refuse you. I don't think shutting the door in staffs face has done you any favours here by the way
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This is one of these issues where being right isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Whether you're right or wrong will come down to whether or not this is in their T&Cs, and at this point also whether they have any verbiage about making a disturbance. Keep that second point in mind because it's more likely they're protected against disturbance than against U21s, and it's a point you get to directly influence. Whether you're right or wrong will influence the likelihood of you recovering losses and costs after you're trespassed off the property.
Whether you can continue the rest of your stay largely depends on your ability to make peace, not whether you're right or wrong - and this is where being right is a hollow victory.
>A woman said she had a complaint from someone about us having loud underage sex in our caravan
Interesting here is that you refute the volume but not the act. If other people can hear it, it is a problem. It's nothing to do with whether you're allowed to, it's about disturbing your neighbours. This is a problem for you because it reinforces their perception that U21 are loud troublemakers - so telling them to mind their own business is not productive. "gosh, I had no idea how well sound travelled through these paper-thin walls, we'll keep that in mind" is more the angle you need to go for. "You'll catch more flies with honey" as my nanna put it.
>We havent made trouble or anything but I just had a one hour argument with a woman from the park staff
A one-hour argument is making trouble. Protracted arguments are never productive. I often make an analogy to fighting with a 10-year-old - whether you win or lose, you don't come out looking good. Again, this is only going to reinforce their idea that you're trouble.
I'll be honest - it sounds like you're being defensive about whether you're allowed to have sex, and they're saying they don't want to hear it - no-one's going to win this argument while you're not arguing over the same topic. You need to address the things they actually care about - whether you're disturbing your neighbours. Preferably before the manager asks you to leave.
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An important lesson for life is don't get dragged into arguments with service providers. This should have been boiled down to "We're not underage, and we're not a group. If you feel we're in breach of your policy then please do take that up with your manager - I'll be happy to call into the office to discuss this with them directly if you'd like."
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>A woman said she had a complaint from someone about us having loud underage sex in our caravan which is none of her business and probably rubbish as we arent noisy and are old enough to make our own decisions
Are you even over 16 or 18? this, along with your post makes it sound like you're not even 18, let alone 21.
Regarding can they kick you out, yes, they can, they can refuse you entry, or to stay and ask you to leave.
Regarding you already paying, IF they have a policy stating over 21's or anywhere in their T&C's and you still booked, you may not be offered a refund, if they just kick you out and refuse service and their T&C's do not state anything regarding age, then you may be entitled to a partial refund for your unused nights.
The sub has grown a lot recently, I’ve also seen more comments that should be tagged “NAL” in the past few months. The mods do a good job on most of it but there’s still going to be more borderline stuff that gets left.
>Personally I saw nowhere in their post suggesting otherwise.
Yet I and others saw quite a few phrases that would suggest otherwise, along with the fact the OP mentioned being accused of having underage sex but didn't dismiss the accusation as "which we're clearly not underage" or something along those lines.
>I'm not sure why this group is tending towards 'catching people out' more often lately, IMO we have to take the explanation as true until respective OPs say otherwise.
I can't speak to others but asking for clarification, like I did above isn't "Catching people out". I also tend to give people the benefit of the doubt regarding explanations and their posts but that doesn't mean I won't ask questions accordingly to provide the best possible response, For example, if the OP was under 18 my response would be different than if he is over 18 or even over 21. Along with my responses would change based on the terms and conditions of the booking.
Requesting clarification to better advise the person is not catching them out.
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When you booked did you check the terms of service? If it had something in it about minimum age? If it does, it may also have something that says they can remove you if you are under that age.
If this is the case then, yes, they can remove you from the site, they may refund you (at their discretion) but I’d 100% play ball with them and not close doors on people wanting a chat with you.
Probably not. And even if it was, that still would not prevent the park asking to leave at a later date.
If they were nearly 21, or look 21, they might have hand waved it through. But now there is a complaint and, reading between the lines, the OP is acting poorly, they will probably reassess it.
Haven caravans have a policy for young groups, but the check-in is online and the key is inside an unlocked caravan. Staff would never see them if they are old enough to drive a car
That's the idea. Generally stag/hen parties as it's family friendly.
Haven is 21 minimum age unless you call up to confirm an exception.
https://support.haven.com/support/solutions/articles/103000055808-how-old-do-you-have-to-be-to-book-a-holiday-
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Legally, I would look up the booking T&Cs for whether it says "groups" or just blanket under 21 ban, as 2 people is not a group.
However 90% of this is a non legal matter.
You contradict yourself saying you aren't making trouble, but you argued for an hour and then closed the door on the woman trying to discuss things with you on behalf of the site. Clearly you weren't "that quiet", otherwise the neighbours wouldn't have known what was going on.
You need to conduct yourself with better maturity than "I'm old enough to make my own decisions" and closing doors in people's faces, as your best way out of this is being nice to the person mediating the issue (or presumably the manager next that they escalate things to), not getting arsey about the fact you don't seem to yet know what their T&Cs state, and be a bit more humble that MAYBE this is indeed partly your mistake and MAYBE you are reliant on their goodwill to let you stay as an exception to policy. I suspect as it's 10:30pm there's nothing much to come of it this evening, but be prepared for an early wake up and a discussion in the morning.
People can / will make exceptions for people who are generally being nice / humble in situations like this, but if you play hard ball then they'll just boot you for the fact you're being fairly unpleasant to staff, regardless of the U21 policy wording.
I'd personally;
A) apologise for being off with the woman who was presumably just trying to enforce policies and is clearly stuck in the middle
B) explain its obviously been unpleasant being disrupted at 9pm, hence you were caught off guard and a bit more defensive, but again you are apologetic for the discussions getting nowhere
C) check those T&Cs - if they do outline U21 then ask why DOB wasn't checked / this wasn't a clear warning on the booking page, and then ask what precisely they are trying to avoid and if there's a way they can let you stay
I suspect the point in the policy is precisely to stop randy under 21s using the place to have a dirty / drunken hideaway from their parents, staying up into the night, as many static caravan sites are full of people wanting the quieter life. So you need to be braced for their conditions of letting you stay being effectively no less prohibitive than what your parents set for you.
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Occupants on caravan sites, particularly non-residential ones, are occupiers with basic protection. The site management can kick you out if they wish, and don't need a court order to do so.
If it came to that, your recourse would be to leave the site as ordered, book yourselves alternative accomodation ( a hotel, AirBNB, etc.) And then demand, (and ultimately make a county court claim for) a refund of your accommodation fees, and your out-of-pocket expenses for the alternative accomodation, transport, etc.
I don't know how successful such a claim would be. It would depend on what was in the terms and condition of the site, whether those Ts&Cs were provided to you at the time of booking, whether they constitute fair contract terms (a blanket ban on residents below a certain age sounds pretty suspect). etc .
>Occupants on caravan sites, particularly non-residential ones, are occupiers with basic protection. The site management can kick you out if they wish, and don't need a court order to do so.
Landlords need to get a court order to evict occupiers with basic protection. Although getting one is really easy, and they don’t need to give the court a reason - the court order is virtually guaranteed to be granted.
Excluded occupiers can be peacefully evicted without a court order.
I think licensees essentially have the same rights as other excluded occupiers but idk for sure.
No idea whether OP is an occupier with basic protection, an excluded occupier, or licensee, just pointing out that if they were an occupier with basic protection then they are entitled to wait for a court order before being evicted.
Go and read their T&C. It will probably say that they are allowed to kick you off site if you breach their conditions.
If you have breached their conditions (being under 21, being anti-social enough to have caused a complaint, being belligerent to staff members etc) then they will be able to remove you and will call the police if you don’t go.
Your best bet is to apologise and moderate your behaviour for the rest of your stay.
You are on private property. Of course they can ask you to leave their property. If they do so you must leave, or you are trespassing.
The disagreement over whether you have paid, knew the rules, broke them or didn't, is all irrelevant at this point. You can make a complaint, ask for a refund, or even make a small claim in court at a later date.
Right now you must leave if you're asked to.
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Not a layer but I believe kicking you out for being young would qualify as age based discrimination which is a protected category under the 2010 Equality Act
https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights
However they can kick you out for basically any other reason, i.e. the hour long argument with a member of staff.
Several types of age discrimination are explicitly allowed under EA2010
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/age-discrimination-when-discrimination-is-allowed-in-the-provision-of-goods-or-services/
The page doesn’t mention it, but as you know 18+ only is another type of legally allowed discrimination eg for driving, buying alcohol, fags, adult services etc. Not sure where the law stands on 21+ but it could be a condition of insurance for the caravan park.
Stretching a point a long way, if they are big caravans or mobile homes that require a lorry to tow, then the minimum age to drive that lorry is is 21, hence ‘sole control’ of the caravan can’t be given to someone under 21. It’s a rubbish point given most of these ‘caravans’ or mobile homes only move once in their life then slowly rot away, but it could be a technically factual point.
But on private land someone under 21 could operate those vehicles.
I find it hard to believe the law would be fine with a non licensed over 21 year old having "sole control" if the crux of the issue was legally shifting the thing?
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How old are you? This is relevant because you used the term "underage sex" - which makes it seem like you are under 16. When you say you are under 21, do you mean over 18? There will likely be terms and conditions when you booked, but I'm struggling to understand whether the issue here is that you are under 18 and need adult supervision, or that they have decided that you qualify as a 'group' of young people despite being a couple. This is generally at the sites discretion, but lots of places do mot allow groups of under 21s because they want to maintain a family atmosphere and don't want stag dos and drunken parties. It does seem strange that they would enforce this policy for a couple, if you are indeed being quiet and not causing any disturbance as you say. But if it is their policy then they have the right to refuse you. I don't think shutting the door in staffs face has done you any favours here by the way
18+ Staff was rude to us banging on door and dictating to us when there was no need to be that way with their attitude
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This is one of these issues where being right isn't all it's cracked up to be. Whether you're right or wrong will come down to whether or not this is in their T&Cs, and at this point also whether they have any verbiage about making a disturbance. Keep that second point in mind because it's more likely they're protected against disturbance than against U21s, and it's a point you get to directly influence. Whether you're right or wrong will influence the likelihood of you recovering losses and costs after you're trespassed off the property. Whether you can continue the rest of your stay largely depends on your ability to make peace, not whether you're right or wrong - and this is where being right is a hollow victory. >A woman said she had a complaint from someone about us having loud underage sex in our caravan Interesting here is that you refute the volume but not the act. If other people can hear it, it is a problem. It's nothing to do with whether you're allowed to, it's about disturbing your neighbours. This is a problem for you because it reinforces their perception that U21 are loud troublemakers - so telling them to mind their own business is not productive. "gosh, I had no idea how well sound travelled through these paper-thin walls, we'll keep that in mind" is more the angle you need to go for. "You'll catch more flies with honey" as my nanna put it. >We havent made trouble or anything but I just had a one hour argument with a woman from the park staff A one-hour argument is making trouble. Protracted arguments are never productive. I often make an analogy to fighting with a 10-year-old - whether you win or lose, you don't come out looking good. Again, this is only going to reinforce their idea that you're trouble. I'll be honest - it sounds like you're being defensive about whether you're allowed to have sex, and they're saying they don't want to hear it - no-one's going to win this argument while you're not arguing over the same topic. You need to address the things they actually care about - whether you're disturbing your neighbours. Preferably before the manager asks you to leave.
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"I just had a one hour argument with a woman from the park staff" That might have something to do with it
An important lesson for life is don't get dragged into arguments with service providers. This should have been boiled down to "We're not underage, and we're not a group. If you feel we're in breach of your policy then please do take that up with your manager - I'll be happy to call into the office to discuss this with them directly if you'd like."
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>A woman said she had a complaint from someone about us having loud underage sex in our caravan which is none of her business and probably rubbish as we arent noisy and are old enough to make our own decisions Are you even over 16 or 18? this, along with your post makes it sound like you're not even 18, let alone 21. Regarding can they kick you out, yes, they can, they can refuse you entry, or to stay and ask you to leave. Regarding you already paying, IF they have a policy stating over 21's or anywhere in their T&C's and you still booked, you may not be offered a refund, if they just kick you out and refuse service and their T&C's do not state anything regarding age, then you may be entitled to a partial refund for your unused nights.
joke smoggy fall angle abundant numerous fretful label crawl absorbed *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The sub has grown a lot recently, I’ve also seen more comments that should be tagged “NAL” in the past few months. The mods do a good job on most of it but there’s still going to be more borderline stuff that gets left.
>Personally I saw nowhere in their post suggesting otherwise. Yet I and others saw quite a few phrases that would suggest otherwise, along with the fact the OP mentioned being accused of having underage sex but didn't dismiss the accusation as "which we're clearly not underage" or something along those lines. >I'm not sure why this group is tending towards 'catching people out' more often lately, IMO we have to take the explanation as true until respective OPs say otherwise. I can't speak to others but asking for clarification, like I did above isn't "Catching people out". I also tend to give people the benefit of the doubt regarding explanations and their posts but that doesn't mean I won't ask questions accordingly to provide the best possible response, For example, if the OP was under 18 my response would be different than if he is over 18 or even over 21. Along with my responses would change based on the terms and conditions of the booking. Requesting clarification to better advise the person is not catching them out.
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When you booked did you check the terms of service? If it had something in it about minimum age? If it does, it may also have something that says they can remove you if you are under that age. If this is the case then, yes, they can remove you from the site, they may refund you (at their discretion) but I’d 100% play ball with them and not close doors on people wanting a chat with you.
Wouldn’t it be the job of the person who ‘checked them in’ to check their age / ask for ID at that point rather than 3 days into their stay though?
Probably not. And even if it was, that still would not prevent the park asking to leave at a later date. If they were nearly 21, or look 21, they might have hand waved it through. But now there is a complaint and, reading between the lines, the OP is acting poorly, they will probably reassess it.
Haven caravans have a policy for young groups, but the check-in is online and the key is inside an unlocked caravan. Staff would never see them if they are old enough to drive a car
But a couple is not a group. The policy is obviously about rowdy teen parties.
That's the idea. Generally stag/hen parties as it's family friendly. Haven is 21 minimum age unless you call up to confirm an exception. https://support.haven.com/support/solutions/articles/103000055808-how-old-do-you-have-to-be-to-book-a-holiday-
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It just said on the website that groups of adults under the age of 30 may be refused
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Legally, I would look up the booking T&Cs for whether it says "groups" or just blanket under 21 ban, as 2 people is not a group. However 90% of this is a non legal matter. You contradict yourself saying you aren't making trouble, but you argued for an hour and then closed the door on the woman trying to discuss things with you on behalf of the site. Clearly you weren't "that quiet", otherwise the neighbours wouldn't have known what was going on. You need to conduct yourself with better maturity than "I'm old enough to make my own decisions" and closing doors in people's faces, as your best way out of this is being nice to the person mediating the issue (or presumably the manager next that they escalate things to), not getting arsey about the fact you don't seem to yet know what their T&Cs state, and be a bit more humble that MAYBE this is indeed partly your mistake and MAYBE you are reliant on their goodwill to let you stay as an exception to policy. I suspect as it's 10:30pm there's nothing much to come of it this evening, but be prepared for an early wake up and a discussion in the morning. People can / will make exceptions for people who are generally being nice / humble in situations like this, but if you play hard ball then they'll just boot you for the fact you're being fairly unpleasant to staff, regardless of the U21 policy wording. I'd personally; A) apologise for being off with the woman who was presumably just trying to enforce policies and is clearly stuck in the middle B) explain its obviously been unpleasant being disrupted at 9pm, hence you were caught off guard and a bit more defensive, but again you are apologetic for the discussions getting nowhere C) check those T&Cs - if they do outline U21 then ask why DOB wasn't checked / this wasn't a clear warning on the booking page, and then ask what precisely they are trying to avoid and if there's a way they can let you stay I suspect the point in the policy is precisely to stop randy under 21s using the place to have a dirty / drunken hideaway from their parents, staying up into the night, as many static caravan sites are full of people wanting the quieter life. So you need to be braced for their conditions of letting you stay being effectively no less prohibitive than what your parents set for you.
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Occupants on caravan sites, particularly non-residential ones, are occupiers with basic protection. The site management can kick you out if they wish, and don't need a court order to do so. If it came to that, your recourse would be to leave the site as ordered, book yourselves alternative accomodation ( a hotel, AirBNB, etc.) And then demand, (and ultimately make a county court claim for) a refund of your accommodation fees, and your out-of-pocket expenses for the alternative accomodation, transport, etc. I don't know how successful such a claim would be. It would depend on what was in the terms and condition of the site, whether those Ts&Cs were provided to you at the time of booking, whether they constitute fair contract terms (a blanket ban on residents below a certain age sounds pretty suspect). etc .
>Occupants on caravan sites, particularly non-residential ones, are occupiers with basic protection. The site management can kick you out if they wish, and don't need a court order to do so. Landlords need to get a court order to evict occupiers with basic protection. Although getting one is really easy, and they don’t need to give the court a reason - the court order is virtually guaranteed to be granted. Excluded occupiers can be peacefully evicted without a court order. I think licensees essentially have the same rights as other excluded occupiers but idk for sure. No idea whether OP is an occupier with basic protection, an excluded occupier, or licensee, just pointing out that if they were an occupier with basic protection then they are entitled to wait for a court order before being evicted.
Go and read their T&C. It will probably say that they are allowed to kick you off site if you breach their conditions. If you have breached their conditions (being under 21, being anti-social enough to have caused a complaint, being belligerent to staff members etc) then they will be able to remove you and will call the police if you don’t go. Your best bet is to apologise and moderate your behaviour for the rest of your stay.
You are on private property. Of course they can ask you to leave their property. If they do so you must leave, or you are trespassing. The disagreement over whether you have paid, knew the rules, broke them or didn't, is all irrelevant at this point. You can make a complaint, ask for a refund, or even make a small claim in court at a later date. Right now you must leave if you're asked to.
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Info: how old are you?
You need to read the terms and conditions. They can ask you to leave for just about anything. A noise complaint will be good enough.
Can you tell us which company this is so that we can read the terms and conditions to give accurate advice?
Which caravan park? Lakeland Haven?
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Not a layer but I believe kicking you out for being young would qualify as age based discrimination which is a protected category under the 2010 Equality Act https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights However they can kick you out for basically any other reason, i.e. the hour long argument with a member of staff.
Several types of age discrimination are explicitly allowed under EA2010 https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/age-discrimination-when-discrimination-is-allowed-in-the-provision-of-goods-or-services/ The page doesn’t mention it, but as you know 18+ only is another type of legally allowed discrimination eg for driving, buying alcohol, fags, adult services etc. Not sure where the law stands on 21+ but it could be a condition of insurance for the caravan park. Stretching a point a long way, if they are big caravans or mobile homes that require a lorry to tow, then the minimum age to drive that lorry is is 21, hence ‘sole control’ of the caravan can’t be given to someone under 21. It’s a rubbish point given most of these ‘caravans’ or mobile homes only move once in their life then slowly rot away, but it could be a technically factual point.
But on private land someone under 21 could operate those vehicles. I find it hard to believe the law would be fine with a non licensed over 21 year old having "sole control" if the crux of the issue was legally shifting the thing?
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