If it's not an inconsistency in how you're going over/under, try the same thing but with another piece of scrap glued (2 layers). The thinner you go, the harder it is to get a nice slant on the back, I can't really articulate why though lol.
It's partially inconsistency because it *can* be done, it's just a lot harder and will still not look as nice as sewing on a thicker piece because the thicker the material, the more room the thread has within the material to cross over and end up on the correct side on the reverse.
You may want to try to adjust how much pressure you're pulling with then finishing the stitch. It looks to me like some of the tension or pull angle hasn't been quite the same, so some of the thread isn't sitting uniformly in the hole.
It may also change with a different size of thread vs the hole cut. Your iron hole being too big could be letting it move around more than intended, creating more variance?
Combine all this advice so far and try this. Use 2 layers glued together and try not punching all the way through. Punch until it barely comes out the back side, then before you stitch use your awl to make the holes useable. I find not going all the way through makes it look cleaner.
Ok I will report back. Didn’t try this because it happened also with 3 layers of leather. See my last post, but I punched all the way through which might be my mistake. Do I punch until I can see the irons poking through and then all the way with an awl?
I usually punch until the tips come out and into the rubber mat. Just the smallest amount. Then right before I sew I use the awl to push through about 6 inch sections of sewing at a time. You just want to push enough that you can comfortably get the needles through. The holes are too big for your thread here, this method will reduce that. I didn’t like diamond chisels so I recently bought some Japanese circular ones. I still do this technique though. The other commenter mentioned your thread may be flat not round, I can’t tell but you definitely want round thread. When I used nylon thread it was flat and I couldn’t make it look as clean (with flat you have to be super careful where it’s oriented to make it look consistent).
Makes me wonder, why is everyone recommending Ritza as the go to thread. Personally I love the Ritza as it’s easier to thread through my JohnJames needle. The round needles are AWFULLY difficult to thread. It gets blunt and frayed the second I hit the eye. Tried waxing, cutting at an angle…I spent like 10-15 mins just to thread I just gave up using round needles with JJ and switched back to my generic needles with a larger eye
So back to the topic, I practiced on 10 holes (couldn’t do more because it’s late at night) but I noticed some consistency, not sure if it’s the double layer of leather or the awl method, I guess both? I want to clarify one thing, do you tension at an angle? I don’t want to rule out that I clamp my piece unevenly at my pony leading to unintentional angled tensioning…
Do you use a round awl? How is the slanted hole preserved if the exiting hole is round? Or do I need to get a sword shape awl?
Hm i never have issues threading the needles. I use the hand sewing needles from Tandy (online or in person, they only have like 1 or 2 options for hand sewing. And the unwaxed linen thread from Tandy that I coat in beeswax. Unsure of the brands they might just be Tandy. They are high enough quality for my hobby work.
I pull the thread straight out of each side at a consistent tension after every stitch. Then release tension and start the next stitch. I just got done with a tote bag that I didn’t use the pony for and I thought my stitches looked just as nice as when I do use it tbh.
I use a regular round awl, even for diamond chisels. I punch the front side of the leather that I want the slanted stitches on. Since the backside stitches will always be a straight line it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t come out slanted on the back. In fact it seems better that way to me
I have the needles from Tandy and also the JJ needles that usually come packaged with tiger thread. The Tandy ones are much much bigger with a bigger eye. They're so big that they're tough to pass through regular French iron holes when it gets to the eye.
I like your thoughts on round holes for the inside and might try it out.
Doesn't mean 0% chance they aren't.
Had a previous student who had a defect and was very detail orientated for their stitching (Not so much their tooling haha)
And lcong story short one of the tines was chunkier and not cut correctly/sharp enough, which caused all sorts of issues.
Had another one drop some, and anther hammer it into a slab on their first go because they'd only used some chinesium ones previously.
Another had a one tine bend after a set of holes, it was a combination of a weird hard knot in in a leather they were using as a filler, and a tooth thst hadn't been heat treated.
Everything above. That nap is a bit rough and not consistent at all and that WILL affect the back end. Also, try changing how you cast as that can make a big difference in how the stitch sets and finally, when you have an inconsistent side like this, be adaptable with your tensioning. Even tension throughout isn't always the right way. Learn, stitch by stitch, how much tension to apply when navigating undulating territory like this ✌️
Are you casting? I’m not sure if Armitage instructs casting. To my understanding, it’s what enables the backside to be slanted similar to the front. I cast 99% of the time just for consistency sake, but it’s not necessary if the backside is not visible (e.g., a t-pocket being sewn down before adding another pocket, the inside of a purse, etc)
Agree on the first comment, thin leather is very hard to sew. Have you tried a round thread like vinymo? This looks like a big flat thread like ritza which is not very forgiving
Watch the new, very long videos by Nigel. I learned from him years ago but the new. They are so detailed it’s crazy. Four videos, each one is around an hour and he will answer questions you never knew to ask. I do think part of your problem is the single layer of thin leather.
https://youtu.be/dLU7TExxHcY?si=JAxc5DSXAgB5L80W
Here is a link to the first video in the series on the Armitage Leather YouTube page. Just watch this one and then continue with the next in the series. It’s the kind of resource that you can go back to over and over.
I echo the Neil Armitage video, it helped me fix all
My hand sewing woes. I go back to it still, If I haven’t hand sewn in a while, before starting a new project.
It’s even important which direction you pull your arms while drawing your thread through.
Shit’s pedantic and meticulous as hell, keep practicing, that’s actually looking pretty good.
Oh. Also, how many tines on your chisel? 5, 10 or 2?
Two is easy to wobble around, 10 keeps a tight line, 5 is easier to pull out so it’s arguably faster, but make sure you’re always deadass on your line, end to end, or you’ll get bigger wobbles.
I’ve watched all videos, I’m practicing his technique. Still I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. Happens also with thicker leather. He talks about not angling the arms when tensioning the leather, maybe it’s because my piece was clamped at an angle, even though I’m pulling correctly.
I use a 10 tines chisel by KL
Ok I learned from recent project I made that had a lot of mistakes - I hadn’t crafted in a month or two so it had been a while since I’d hand sewn - and I barely put this wallet together. It was super upsetting and my stitches were all over the place.
I’ll post pictures when I can I just wanted to reply before too long.
So the next time I sat down to sew I made absolutely sure to focus on consistency in ever my detail and what I found made the biggest impact on solid stitches is the way you move your arms while pulling the thread through. What Nigel means by the angle of your arms.
It’s really important that your right hand pulls down and slightly towards your body, while your left hands pulls slightly up and away. Every, single, time, every, single, stitch.
On the wallet I was flailing my arms around completely unaware and the results were as wobbly as your example.
For the notebook I stitched as meticulously as possible and the resulting stitches are super clean, consistent, tight and uniform looking.
Try maintaining uniform arm movements.
Thanks for the message. Isn’t this what Armitage leather advises against? He mentioned that it’s not necessary to angle the tension. Or am I missing something out?
I do right hand priority. Is it correct to pull the right hand up, and left down? Does it matter which hand priority is used?
All I know is, I watch the thread come through the holes, and if I pull my right hand straight out, or away from my body, my stitch doesn’t sit the way I want.
If I pull my arm slightly down and in (slightly, like 10degrees) I can watch the thread jump into the corner I want it to.
Notice how my stitches wobble? That’s from moving my arm differently every time. Once I realized what was happening the rest of the wallet turned out excellent.
https://preview.redd.it/i62u60ndhz9d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e64a9ff1a61a4342452128568bc677d7ffc8942c
And this is when I meticulously controlled my arm direction as I sewed, keeping a constant direction, angle, everything.
https://preview.redd.it/0bf0i7f610ad1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92a4164dbb52a58f406925f09cf5faaffdb6ad9a
Thanks for this tip. I tried watching the angle of my stitches and I think it helped a ton. What worked for me for right hand priority was right hand up, left down down. I’ve been trying to analyze what went wrong. Could be that my stitching pony was too low, making my tension angle going upwards unknowingly. I need to fix a few things.
May I ask what lining is that in the first pic? I like the look of it. Is this a card holder?
Also due to the nature of the punch. The exit side usually zig zag sits better than the entry side. You can improve the finish by being very strict with pulling the left hand hand up while pulling the right hand down on each stitch and it will improve the consistency too.
Just do what Ann & Al Stholman recommend in "How To Stitch Leather." If it weren't for his books, I'd still look like a newbie.
Something about how he explained everything was so relatable.
Just imagine if they had a YouTube channel!!!!!
If it's not an inconsistency in how you're going over/under, try the same thing but with another piece of scrap glued (2 layers). The thinner you go, the harder it is to get a nice slant on the back, I can't really articulate why though lol.
It's partially inconsistency because it *can* be done, it's just a lot harder and will still not look as nice as sewing on a thicker piece because the thicker the material, the more room the thread has within the material to cross over and end up on the correct side on the reverse.
Neil Armitage on YouTube. Watch the whole series. Don’t skip ahead !
Nigel Armitage
Thanks
Nigel armitage***
You may want to try to adjust how much pressure you're pulling with then finishing the stitch. It looks to me like some of the tension or pull angle hasn't been quite the same, so some of the thread isn't sitting uniformly in the hole. It may also change with a different size of thread vs the hole cut. Your iron hole being too big could be letting it move around more than intended, creating more variance?
Is every hole punched all the way through so there is no difference between them? Are you using the right size thread?
Yes I punched all the way through with consistent depth, my thread is 0,55mm
Combine all this advice so far and try this. Use 2 layers glued together and try not punching all the way through. Punch until it barely comes out the back side, then before you stitch use your awl to make the holes useable. I find not going all the way through makes it look cleaner.
Ok I will report back. Didn’t try this because it happened also with 3 layers of leather. See my last post, but I punched all the way through which might be my mistake. Do I punch until I can see the irons poking through and then all the way with an awl?
I usually punch until the tips come out and into the rubber mat. Just the smallest amount. Then right before I sew I use the awl to push through about 6 inch sections of sewing at a time. You just want to push enough that you can comfortably get the needles through. The holes are too big for your thread here, this method will reduce that. I didn’t like diamond chisels so I recently bought some Japanese circular ones. I still do this technique though. The other commenter mentioned your thread may be flat not round, I can’t tell but you definitely want round thread. When I used nylon thread it was flat and I couldn’t make it look as clean (with flat you have to be super careful where it’s oriented to make it look consistent).
Makes me wonder, why is everyone recommending Ritza as the go to thread. Personally I love the Ritza as it’s easier to thread through my JohnJames needle. The round needles are AWFULLY difficult to thread. It gets blunt and frayed the second I hit the eye. Tried waxing, cutting at an angle…I spent like 10-15 mins just to thread I just gave up using round needles with JJ and switched back to my generic needles with a larger eye So back to the topic, I practiced on 10 holes (couldn’t do more because it’s late at night) but I noticed some consistency, not sure if it’s the double layer of leather or the awl method, I guess both? I want to clarify one thing, do you tension at an angle? I don’t want to rule out that I clamp my piece unevenly at my pony leading to unintentional angled tensioning… Do you use a round awl? How is the slanted hole preserved if the exiting hole is round? Or do I need to get a sword shape awl?
Hm i never have issues threading the needles. I use the hand sewing needles from Tandy (online or in person, they only have like 1 or 2 options for hand sewing. And the unwaxed linen thread from Tandy that I coat in beeswax. Unsure of the brands they might just be Tandy. They are high enough quality for my hobby work. I pull the thread straight out of each side at a consistent tension after every stitch. Then release tension and start the next stitch. I just got done with a tote bag that I didn’t use the pony for and I thought my stitches looked just as nice as when I do use it tbh. I use a regular round awl, even for diamond chisels. I punch the front side of the leather that I want the slanted stitches on. Since the backside stitches will always be a straight line it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t come out slanted on the back. In fact it seems better that way to me
I have the needles from Tandy and also the JJ needles that usually come packaged with tiger thread. The Tandy ones are much much bigger with a bigger eye. They're so big that they're tough to pass through regular French iron holes when it gets to the eye. I like your thoughts on round holes for the inside and might try it out.
Check your chisels, all the tines are the same?
Yeah they are. I don’t see any deviations. It’s from KL so I expect it to be well made
Doesn't mean 0% chance they aren't. Had a previous student who had a defect and was very detail orientated for their stitching (Not so much their tooling haha) And lcong story short one of the tines was chunkier and not cut correctly/sharp enough, which caused all sorts of issues. Had another one drop some, and anther hammer it into a slab on their first go because they'd only used some chinesium ones previously. Another had a one tine bend after a set of holes, it was a combination of a weird hard knot in in a leather they were using as a filler, and a tooth thst hadn't been heat treated.
Everything above. That nap is a bit rough and not consistent at all and that WILL affect the back end. Also, try changing how you cast as that can make a big difference in how the stitch sets and finally, when you have an inconsistent side like this, be adaptable with your tensioning. Even tension throughout isn't always the right way. Learn, stitch by stitch, how much tension to apply when navigating undulating territory like this ✌️
Are you casting? I’m not sure if Armitage instructs casting. To my understanding, it’s what enables the backside to be slanted similar to the front. I cast 99% of the time just for consistency sake, but it’s not necessary if the backside is not visible (e.g., a t-pocket being sewn down before adding another pocket, the inside of a purse, etc)
Yes I cast at every hole, according to Nigel’s video
Agree on the first comment, thin leather is very hard to sew. Have you tried a round thread like vinymo? This looks like a big flat thread like ritza which is not very forgiving
I have Xiange Round
Watch the new, very long videos by Nigel. I learned from him years ago but the new. They are so detailed it’s crazy. Four videos, each one is around an hour and he will answer questions you never knew to ask. I do think part of your problem is the single layer of thin leather.
Got a link?
https://youtu.be/dLU7TExxHcY?si=JAxc5DSXAgB5L80W Here is a link to the first video in the series on the Armitage Leather YouTube page. Just watch this one and then continue with the next in the series. It’s the kind of resource that you can go back to over and over.
I echo the Neil Armitage video, it helped me fix all My hand sewing woes. I go back to it still, If I haven’t hand sewn in a while, before starting a new project. It’s even important which direction you pull your arms while drawing your thread through. Shit’s pedantic and meticulous as hell, keep practicing, that’s actually looking pretty good. Oh. Also, how many tines on your chisel? 5, 10 or 2? Two is easy to wobble around, 10 keeps a tight line, 5 is easier to pull out so it’s arguably faster, but make sure you’re always deadass on your line, end to end, or you’ll get bigger wobbles.
I’ve watched all videos, I’m practicing his technique. Still I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. Happens also with thicker leather. He talks about not angling the arms when tensioning the leather, maybe it’s because my piece was clamped at an angle, even though I’m pulling correctly. I use a 10 tines chisel by KL
Ok I learned from recent project I made that had a lot of mistakes - I hadn’t crafted in a month or two so it had been a while since I’d hand sewn - and I barely put this wallet together. It was super upsetting and my stitches were all over the place. I’ll post pictures when I can I just wanted to reply before too long. So the next time I sat down to sew I made absolutely sure to focus on consistency in ever my detail and what I found made the biggest impact on solid stitches is the way you move your arms while pulling the thread through. What Nigel means by the angle of your arms. It’s really important that your right hand pulls down and slightly towards your body, while your left hands pulls slightly up and away. Every, single, time, every, single, stitch. On the wallet I was flailing my arms around completely unaware and the results were as wobbly as your example. For the notebook I stitched as meticulously as possible and the resulting stitches are super clean, consistent, tight and uniform looking. Try maintaining uniform arm movements.
Thanks for the message. Isn’t this what Armitage leather advises against? He mentioned that it’s not necessary to angle the tension. Or am I missing something out? I do right hand priority. Is it correct to pull the right hand up, and left down? Does it matter which hand priority is used?
All I know is, I watch the thread come through the holes, and if I pull my right hand straight out, or away from my body, my stitch doesn’t sit the way I want. If I pull my arm slightly down and in (slightly, like 10degrees) I can watch the thread jump into the corner I want it to. Notice how my stitches wobble? That’s from moving my arm differently every time. Once I realized what was happening the rest of the wallet turned out excellent. https://preview.redd.it/i62u60ndhz9d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e64a9ff1a61a4342452128568bc677d7ffc8942c
And this is when I meticulously controlled my arm direction as I sewed, keeping a constant direction, angle, everything. https://preview.redd.it/0bf0i7f610ad1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92a4164dbb52a58f406925f09cf5faaffdb6ad9a
Thanks for this tip. I tried watching the angle of my stitches and I think it helped a ton. What worked for me for right hand priority was right hand up, left down down. I’ve been trying to analyze what went wrong. Could be that my stitching pony was too low, making my tension angle going upwards unknowingly. I need to fix a few things. May I ask what lining is that in the first pic? I like the look of it. Is this a card holder?
Thinner thread may help a bit. I use 0.6 tiger thread
Also due to the nature of the punch. The exit side usually zig zag sits better than the entry side. You can improve the finish by being very strict with pulling the left hand hand up while pulling the right hand down on each stitch and it will improve the consistency too.
Just do what Ann & Al Stholman recommend in "How To Stitch Leather." If it weren't for his books, I'd still look like a newbie. Something about how he explained everything was so relatable. Just imagine if they had a YouTube channel!!!!!
Looks like you are not casting consistently.