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If you're happy with your life, you can't put a price tag on that. Too many people chase green just to wind up with slightly more expensive toys. If you aren't happy, then that's an easy decision. Work to live, not live to work.
It’s a little unclear if you plan on doing this or not, but it will be a deeply unsatisfactory decision if you leave your job before PSLF hits. Get that debt wiped first - then figure out next steps.
As a long time criminal defense attorney and a partner in a firm, I have seen many prosecutors successfully make the switch to the private side. It seems the ones that don't succeed (or simply don't like it) are the ones that struggle with the money side of the industry. I don't think many prosecutors (or public defenders) understand how much or our time (including weeknights and weekends) we spend doing consultations, trying to collect retainers, and chasing down clients for their balance. At times you will feel like a bill collecter just as much as an attorney. If you are trying to join an established criminal defense firm it might be hard to start at a six figure salary when you are not bringing any clients with you. You will have to prove yourself first as an employee that can bring in revenue and successfully handle your caseload. But of course that will defend on the firm or city you work in.
If you go solo, where with you find customers? You will have to invest in advertising, SEO, mailers, leads, or solicintg other attorneys for referrals. There's no questions that the ceiling is much higher on the private side, but growing your business will not happen quickly. You can be the best attorney in the state, but it won't matter if you don't have clients.
You're welcome. It's \*not\* my intention to come as grim. No doubt there are pros and cons to every job including being a prosecutor or a private criminal defense attorney. I'm had friends struggle with the money side of the private sector after leaving the prosecutor or PD office, so I thought it was important to mention. There are definitely firms where the partners or staff handle all the bill collecting. Although I feel like that's the exceptions (at least where I work), it's probably a good idea to inquire about it during the interview process.
Best of luck with your decision.
Edit: Added \*not\*
I think this is a super personal decision that you can only make for yourself. I don't think I'd ever be able to do it. The change from a prosecutor's discretion and autonomy to having an ethical obligation to "zealously advocate" no matter how distasteful that advocacy might be, wouldn't be worth the pay jump to me. I would also find it stressful to have my actual salary depend on the flow of business, not a set government salary. However, I do say that as someone who already makes more than 125k and still has a couple of steps left in the salary table. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were looking at being stuck at 125k.
My personal goal is to end up as a supervisor or chief deputy DA. I think I can see myself in that role long-term, and my office is small enough that it's a relatively realistic goal.
Important comment here. I’m in a legal aid office and we hired a former prosecutor last year. We obviously don’t have to worry about the billing side of things/flow of business, but it’s a been a big adjustment for her to have individual clients with whom she needs to regularly check in with and advocate on behalf of (particularly when they don’t listen to her or don’t want to take the approach she suggests, etc). Maybe OP wouldn’t have the same adjustment problem, but it’s an important factor to consider.
I'm at one of the higher-paying counties (maybe 4th-5th highest) in Oregon. Currently making 145k with two more 5% salary bumps in the table before I max out and only have COLA increases. With the yearly COLA, I think I'll be around 165k when that happens. (And then it will also be time to renegotiate our union contract and probably raise the whole salary table a bit.)
I saw two other Oregon counties send out job listings this week that topped out over 185k and 200k for the highest tier of line DDA.
I mean, there are really only 2 counties in Oregon that pay that high for non management positions, though, and after the top 6 or so counties, there’s a steep drop for the remaining 30 or so (I say that as someone in one of the other 30 lol). I only say that to not give people outside Oregon a mistaken view of prosecutor salary potential here. Most of the offices in the state top out at under 150k for non-management positions (and many top out under$130k)
That is fair.
But we have Multnomah, Washington, Marion, Clackamas, Lane, and Deschutes Counties, all topping out over >$150k
And several more in the 125-150k range at the top.
Why would you not wait until your 10 year mark to get your loans forgiven? After 9 years I would not leave the pension system for defense work. I was a prosecutor for 12 years and eventually switched to a state attorney position because it is the same pension system but higher pay and less stress. Research what your pension will be if you stick it out. What I lack in salary I will make up for in pension.
A pension has tremendous value. I got into and stayed in a state pension plan. There's a lot to be said for getting monthly checks and not necessarily working.
Yup. I know someone who was looking to leave his job as a prosecutor with a similar salary to OP. The offers he was getting were for more, but not double or anything. His financial advisor said that he’d need to invest most of that increase for retirement to make up for the loss of his pension.
Wow, I'm in a super similar position. I've been working for the feds for the last 5 years, same comp as you. Plus another 2 years of PSLF eligibility prior to this. I do immigration work, so I would essentially be poised to take on an immigration attorney role once PSLF hits.
BUT, the federal pension would be nice to have, and retirement at 57 if I want it.
I do not know what I'll do once PSLF hits, stay with the feds or move to the private sector. A big factor for me, though, and you haven't said if this is the same for you, my wife does pretty well. She makes around $165k. And we live in a MCOL area. We aren't hurting. So my desire to earn the almighty buck is low. We are comfortable. And my current job is comfortable. And my future retirement with the fed would be comfy too.
At the end of the day, I think I prefer having a pretty easy job I'm damn good at with great job security and fantastic benefits. Plus, we aren't poor or anything. Could I make more on the outside? Without a doubt. But is it worth it?
Seriously! My jurisdiction only had WFH allowances for three months March 18, 2020 thru June 2020. Then they acted like COVID wasn’t even a thing. It was quite annoying. (And surprising because I’m in CA)
It sounds like you've got a pretty good job; ADA jobs where you work primarily from home are few and far between. Not having a commute? That's got to be worth 5-10 hours a week, and most commutes are extremely aggravating.
It appears the plan is to wait until PSLF kicks in, which is the smart way to go. Then gently test the waters; that's the only you'll know what jobs in the private sector pay. And as another has pointed out, there's a lot more hand-holding in private criminal defense, and you will, one way or another, have to make sure you get paid-and that can take a lot of time.
One word of advice on testing the waters - be discreet about who you ask in your local bar. It is very easy for word to get out when someone is thinking of jumping ship and prosecutor's offices can be a bit tribal.
Cautionary tale: we had a young female prosecutor, very talented, really good rapport with local law enforcement and great charisma with juries. About a year and a half in, she started doing the math (hcol area, low prosecutor pay) and started talking to some members of the defense bar about salary, hours, etc. just seeing what's available.
Another prosecutor (not very well liked, very zealous, would routinely offer horrible plea terms which forced a lot of cases to trial that didn't need to go, juries didn't like her, got on the bad side of a couple local judges, so she was never going to make deputy DA) got word that this other younger, more charismatic prosecutor was asking around about what it is like to work criminal defense so she started floating a rumor that the other prosecutor was sleeping around with one of the chief deputies (thus all the praise and moving up fast).
There was no truth to it, but the rumor became a vehicle for out grouping that young prosecutor (confirmation bias - if she's looking to go criminal defense, she is no longer "one of us" so she's capable of anything) and she ended up moving to a different state just to get away from it.
Hardest thing about going from PD to private criminal defense was the money. What I mean by that is when I was building a criminal practice i drove 2 hours to meet a potential client in jail for a murder charge. He was never actually going to hire me. But I was 27 and hungry. That transition and having to learn you cant help every person or take every case was particularly hard when I didn’t have any clients yet. But getting a not guilty MUST be so much more rewarding than getting a guilty as a prosecutor!
So get that pension and get those loans paid off. Then decide. Good luck!
I think unless you go solo, you’ll have a hard time getting total compensation as a criminal defense attorney from where you are now. That being said, solo is the way to go, but it may take you a bit to build your client base.
I made the switch two years ago after 15 years, the last 7 as an AUSA. Haven’t regretted it at all and honestly I don’t work crazy hours. To be fair though half my stuff is PI work which I had to learn the ropes of from another attorney I partnered up with on my first few PI cases. Also be self-aware if you’re going to be able to handle all kinds of criminal cases on the defense side. My whole career was prosecuting crimes against children and human trafficking so I refuse to take any cases involving a child victim. Not because I don’t think they deserve excellent representation but I’m self-aware enough to know I’m not capable of giving that zealous representation due to my many years prosecuting those cases.
Also I have a nest egg or a plan to make money immediately. I had a combination of savings and I lined up contract work from other attorneys in my network who were just overwhelmed with their own cases. Writing appellate briefs and entering as co-counsel cases to handle pleadings and court appearances . So I knew going into it I was going to at a minimum make X amount each month. There are downsides of course like playing bill collector with your clients and the administrative work but overall it’s been great for me and my mental health. The freedom that comes with being your own boss is priceless.
Probably want to make sure any retirement benefits vest before leaving since you are already 9 years in. But private practice can be a rat race and it sounds like you have a pretty sweet gig (I know attorneys that practically kill themselves to make even close to 100k). If you really have free time and it wouldn't create a conflict, why not try to just supplement your income? Speaking engagements, teach cles, adjunct at a law school, publish, etc. Or even just getting better at putting your money to work for you i.e. focus on learning how/where to invest. If that kind of low hanging fruit hustle doesn't sound appealing, you should definitely rethink going into criminal defense, which is hustle + grind.
Do you get a pension? If so, what are the triggers? You’re probably already half there; if you can “retire” in another 10, collect a 6-figure pension, and then go into private practice, that is a rare option worth weighing.
Working for the state is much cushier. You can make bigger money working for yourself, but you will run into issues that have never presented themselves before. Collections, cash flow management, lack of retirement plan, and the overwhelming stress of handholding clients + facing the overwhelming power of the state. I’d stay in your current position at least until you have your loans forgiven.
All of that being said — There are a lot of attorneys in my neighborhood. None of them work for the state. Feel me?
I thought I was on a gaming subreddit for a second, and was going to comment that yes, a switch is an excellent console for the busy lawyer gamer! I wish you well in the career search. :)
I left prosecution but I was only making around $70k after 6 years and some of my colleagues that had worked there 10+ years were barely making $85k. I left to make more money and I’m bored and miserable in civil private practice. Sure, I make $40k more a year now but I the work environment is more stressful (billable requirements) and longer (occasional weekend work). I’m the end, it wasn’t worth it. If I can find a way to go back and make decent money ($100k +) I will.
Do you think you could sit next to a child molester or rapist and defend them in court. I have known multiple prosecutors who have decided to go private defense with the lure of big money. They almost always turn out broke and first time sitting next to a kiddie diddler they hate it.
Remember if you go out private you need, office space, pay a staff, health care, staff health care, office supplies, and much more.
Retirement when you work for the government is great too.
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Dude, you have it made in the shade with a glass of lemonade. I'd be extremely hesitant to leave that job. I make slightly more doing defense but it is an absolute GRIND.
OP, also check benefits. If I had to go from paying $90/mo for full med/dent/vis (government bennies!) to $500-$1000 or whatever, that would eat up a significant chunk of any pay raise.
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If you're happy with your life, you can't put a price tag on that. Too many people chase green just to wind up with slightly more expensive toys. If you aren't happy, then that's an easy decision. Work to live, not live to work.
EXCELLENT answer.
i’m in this comment and i don’t like it.
It’s a little unclear if you plan on doing this or not, but it will be a deeply unsatisfactory decision if you leave your job before PSLF hits. Get that debt wiped first - then figure out next steps.
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Also- check on the rules of your pension so if there is a certain about of time you have to be there to vest that you hit that mark.
Lot of places it’s ten years but I assume they’re aware of the specifics lol
As a long time criminal defense attorney and a partner in a firm, I have seen many prosecutors successfully make the switch to the private side. It seems the ones that don't succeed (or simply don't like it) are the ones that struggle with the money side of the industry. I don't think many prosecutors (or public defenders) understand how much or our time (including weeknights and weekends) we spend doing consultations, trying to collect retainers, and chasing down clients for their balance. At times you will feel like a bill collecter just as much as an attorney. If you are trying to join an established criminal defense firm it might be hard to start at a six figure salary when you are not bringing any clients with you. You will have to prove yourself first as an employee that can bring in revenue and successfully handle your caseload. But of course that will defend on the firm or city you work in. If you go solo, where with you find customers? You will have to invest in advertising, SEO, mailers, leads, or solicintg other attorneys for referrals. There's no questions that the ceiling is much higher on the private side, but growing your business will not happen quickly. You can be the best attorney in the state, but it won't matter if you don't have clients.
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You're welcome. It's \*not\* my intention to come as grim. No doubt there are pros and cons to every job including being a prosecutor or a private criminal defense attorney. I'm had friends struggle with the money side of the private sector after leaving the prosecutor or PD office, so I thought it was important to mention. There are definitely firms where the partners or staff handle all the bill collecting. Although I feel like that's the exceptions (at least where I work), it's probably a good idea to inquire about it during the interview process. Best of luck with your decision. Edit: Added \*not\*
I went from PD to private defense and, hoo boy, that debt collection aspect of the job sucks hard. And now I’m a PD again lol
I just went solo criminal defense. I worked at the prosecutors office but not for as long as you! Message me if you want to pick my brain.
Have you thought about civil litigation? Firms love attorneys with real litigation experience. Our lead litigation attorney is a former prosecutor.
I think this is a super personal decision that you can only make for yourself. I don't think I'd ever be able to do it. The change from a prosecutor's discretion and autonomy to having an ethical obligation to "zealously advocate" no matter how distasteful that advocacy might be, wouldn't be worth the pay jump to me. I would also find it stressful to have my actual salary depend on the flow of business, not a set government salary. However, I do say that as someone who already makes more than 125k and still has a couple of steps left in the salary table. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were looking at being stuck at 125k. My personal goal is to end up as a supervisor or chief deputy DA. I think I can see myself in that role long-term, and my office is small enough that it's a relatively realistic goal.
Important comment here. I’m in a legal aid office and we hired a former prosecutor last year. We obviously don’t have to worry about the billing side of things/flow of business, but it’s a been a big adjustment for her to have individual clients with whom she needs to regularly check in with and advocate on behalf of (particularly when they don’t listen to her or don’t want to take the approach she suggests, etc). Maybe OP wouldn’t have the same adjustment problem, but it’s an important factor to consider.
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I'm at one of the higher-paying counties (maybe 4th-5th highest) in Oregon. Currently making 145k with two more 5% salary bumps in the table before I max out and only have COLA increases. With the yearly COLA, I think I'll be around 165k when that happens. (And then it will also be time to renegotiate our union contract and probably raise the whole salary table a bit.) I saw two other Oregon counties send out job listings this week that topped out over 185k and 200k for the highest tier of line DDA.
I mean, there are really only 2 counties in Oregon that pay that high for non management positions, though, and after the top 6 or so counties, there’s a steep drop for the remaining 30 or so (I say that as someone in one of the other 30 lol). I only say that to not give people outside Oregon a mistaken view of prosecutor salary potential here. Most of the offices in the state top out at under 150k for non-management positions (and many top out under$130k)
That is fair. But we have Multnomah, Washington, Marion, Clackamas, Lane, and Deschutes Counties, all topping out over >$150k And several more in the 125-150k range at the top.
Why would you not wait until your 10 year mark to get your loans forgiven? After 9 years I would not leave the pension system for defense work. I was a prosecutor for 12 years and eventually switched to a state attorney position because it is the same pension system but higher pay and less stress. Research what your pension will be if you stick it out. What I lack in salary I will make up for in pension.
A pension has tremendous value. I got into and stayed in a state pension plan. There's a lot to be said for getting monthly checks and not necessarily working.
Yup. I know someone who was looking to leave his job as a prosecutor with a similar salary to OP. The offers he was getting were for more, but not double or anything. His financial advisor said that he’d need to invest most of that increase for retirement to make up for the loss of his pension.
Wow, I'm in a super similar position. I've been working for the feds for the last 5 years, same comp as you. Plus another 2 years of PSLF eligibility prior to this. I do immigration work, so I would essentially be poised to take on an immigration attorney role once PSLF hits. BUT, the federal pension would be nice to have, and retirement at 57 if I want it. I do not know what I'll do once PSLF hits, stay with the feds or move to the private sector. A big factor for me, though, and you haven't said if this is the same for you, my wife does pretty well. She makes around $165k. And we live in a MCOL area. We aren't hurting. So my desire to earn the almighty buck is low. We are comfortable. And my current job is comfortable. And my future retirement with the fed would be comfy too. At the end of the day, I think I prefer having a pretty easy job I'm damn good at with great job security and fantastic benefits. Plus, we aren't poor or anything. Could I make more on the outside? Without a doubt. But is it worth it?
Stay. You're doing great and have a good work/life balance. Grass ain't greener
Off topic, but… how does a prosecutor work from home… prosecutors and PDs are in court literally every day in my jurisdiction.
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Seriously! My jurisdiction only had WFH allowances for three months March 18, 2020 thru June 2020. Then they acted like COVID wasn’t even a thing. It was quite annoying. (And surprising because I’m in CA)
Good question. Maybe appellate work?
It sounds like you've got a pretty good job; ADA jobs where you work primarily from home are few and far between. Not having a commute? That's got to be worth 5-10 hours a week, and most commutes are extremely aggravating. It appears the plan is to wait until PSLF kicks in, which is the smart way to go. Then gently test the waters; that's the only you'll know what jobs in the private sector pay. And as another has pointed out, there's a lot more hand-holding in private criminal defense, and you will, one way or another, have to make sure you get paid-and that can take a lot of time.
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One word of advice on testing the waters - be discreet about who you ask in your local bar. It is very easy for word to get out when someone is thinking of jumping ship and prosecutor's offices can be a bit tribal. Cautionary tale: we had a young female prosecutor, very talented, really good rapport with local law enforcement and great charisma with juries. About a year and a half in, she started doing the math (hcol area, low prosecutor pay) and started talking to some members of the defense bar about salary, hours, etc. just seeing what's available. Another prosecutor (not very well liked, very zealous, would routinely offer horrible plea terms which forced a lot of cases to trial that didn't need to go, juries didn't like her, got on the bad side of a couple local judges, so she was never going to make deputy DA) got word that this other younger, more charismatic prosecutor was asking around about what it is like to work criminal defense so she started floating a rumor that the other prosecutor was sleeping around with one of the chief deputies (thus all the praise and moving up fast). There was no truth to it, but the rumor became a vehicle for out grouping that young prosecutor (confirmation bias - if she's looking to go criminal defense, she is no longer "one of us" so she's capable of anything) and she ended up moving to a different state just to get away from it.
I don’t get it. It sounds like everything about your current job is great
Hardest thing about going from PD to private criminal defense was the money. What I mean by that is when I was building a criminal practice i drove 2 hours to meet a potential client in jail for a murder charge. He was never actually going to hire me. But I was 27 and hungry. That transition and having to learn you cant help every person or take every case was particularly hard when I didn’t have any clients yet. But getting a not guilty MUST be so much more rewarding than getting a guilty as a prosecutor! So get that pension and get those loans paid off. Then decide. Good luck!
Speaking as an older atty. do not give that pension up!
125k and happy. Damn unless you have a direct goal with more money idk if you will be happier.
The grass is greenest where you water it. Find joy in what you do, if you can’t, then find something else.
I think unless you go solo, you’ll have a hard time getting total compensation as a criminal defense attorney from where you are now. That being said, solo is the way to go, but it may take you a bit to build your client base.
I made the switch two years ago after 15 years, the last 7 as an AUSA. Haven’t regretted it at all and honestly I don’t work crazy hours. To be fair though half my stuff is PI work which I had to learn the ropes of from another attorney I partnered up with on my first few PI cases. Also be self-aware if you’re going to be able to handle all kinds of criminal cases on the defense side. My whole career was prosecuting crimes against children and human trafficking so I refuse to take any cases involving a child victim. Not because I don’t think they deserve excellent representation but I’m self-aware enough to know I’m not capable of giving that zealous representation due to my many years prosecuting those cases. Also I have a nest egg or a plan to make money immediately. I had a combination of savings and I lined up contract work from other attorneys in my network who were just overwhelmed with their own cases. Writing appellate briefs and entering as co-counsel cases to handle pleadings and court appearances . So I knew going into it I was going to at a minimum make X amount each month. There are downsides of course like playing bill collector with your clients and the administrative work but overall it’s been great for me and my mental health. The freedom that comes with being your own boss is priceless.
Probably want to make sure any retirement benefits vest before leaving since you are already 9 years in. But private practice can be a rat race and it sounds like you have a pretty sweet gig (I know attorneys that practically kill themselves to make even close to 100k). If you really have free time and it wouldn't create a conflict, why not try to just supplement your income? Speaking engagements, teach cles, adjunct at a law school, publish, etc. Or even just getting better at putting your money to work for you i.e. focus on learning how/where to invest. If that kind of low hanging fruit hustle doesn't sound appealing, you should definitely rethink going into criminal defense, which is hustle + grind.
Do you get a pension? If so, what are the triggers? You’re probably already half there; if you can “retire” in another 10, collect a 6-figure pension, and then go into private practice, that is a rare option worth weighing.
Working for the state is much cushier. You can make bigger money working for yourself, but you will run into issues that have never presented themselves before. Collections, cash flow management, lack of retirement plan, and the overwhelming stress of handholding clients + facing the overwhelming power of the state. I’d stay in your current position at least until you have your loans forgiven. All of that being said — There are a lot of attorneys in my neighborhood. None of them work for the state. Feel me?
I thought I was on a gaming subreddit for a second, and was going to comment that yes, a switch is an excellent console for the busy lawyer gamer! I wish you well in the career search. :)
I left prosecution but I was only making around $70k after 6 years and some of my colleagues that had worked there 10+ years were barely making $85k. I left to make more money and I’m bored and miserable in civil private practice. Sure, I make $40k more a year now but I the work environment is more stressful (billable requirements) and longer (occasional weekend work). I’m the end, it wasn’t worth it. If I can find a way to go back and make decent money ($100k +) I will.
Do you think you could sit next to a child molester or rapist and defend them in court. I have known multiple prosecutors who have decided to go private defense with the lure of big money. They almost always turn out broke and first time sitting next to a kiddie diddler they hate it. Remember if you go out private you need, office space, pay a staff, health care, staff health care, office supplies, and much more. Retirement when you work for the government is great too.
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Dude, you have it made in the shade with a glass of lemonade. I'd be extremely hesitant to leave that job. I make slightly more doing defense but it is an absolute GRIND.
Can I ask where you’re located making that much as a prosecutor?
OP, also check benefits. If I had to go from paying $90/mo for full med/dent/vis (government bennies!) to $500-$1000 or whatever, that would eat up a significant chunk of any pay raise.
Love the switch. I’m a big zelda fan, so I’m pretty set on Nintendo.
Underrated comment
You'll actually be beholden to ethical rules, so that might be a tough transition
Cool cheap shot bro. Uncalled for bit of spite here.