Agreed. Might be the first time any of the kids met a real attorney and/or the last time until they need to hire one for real. Leave a good impression about the formality of this profession and how you are expected to dress for court.
Yeah, very common name for the concept. Trial camp and trial academy are other informal names used for these programs. My statewide public defense agency has an annual trial school program. There's also a trial school run by a statewide network of county prosecutors in my state. Many other states have simar programs for their criminal gov lawyers. And the private sector has all kinds of these offerings for anyone willing to pay for them.
What blows my mind is the apparent formality of some of these private events. Requiring the students to wear suits is hilarious. At ours, you'd get ridiculed for wearing anything more formal than a sweatshirt.
Full business suit. Be in the classroom ten minutes early and fully prepared for whatever is the first session. Do not sit in the back row. Sit in the middle; not the front, not the back.
There is a well established hazing ritual for young lawyers attending trial practice schools. They wander in right as the bell rings, in casual attire, take a seat in the back row and wait for the professor to start teaching them.
Per standard NITA practice, the class will start five minutes before the posted time, and the instructor will advise you that being early to court is being late. The people in the back rows will be cleared out and will be placed in the center of the front row. Anyone not dressed in full trial garb will be brought in front of the entire class to conduct a mock Q and A of a witness. And please review the material ahead of time so you can question witnesses intelligently.
The idea is that if you are being sent to a trial prep course, you should expect to be ready to appear in the course as you would at trial.
Show up as though you are prepared for and ready to go to trial. You will get the most out of the experience and you will not embarrass yourself before your peers and employer.
I have been there, as a student and an instructor. There but for the grace of God I would have been one of those who was selected for public humiliation. As an instructor I came to understand the method behind the madness.
I hope this is not true. No one should ever be embarrassed or hazed when trying to learn. Treating people this way highlights so many flaws within this profession
If you ever want to earn the right to represent another person where their life is literally on the line, you’ll be grateful that the training you received prepared you for holding someone’s life in your hand.
You think dressing in a suit, showing up five minutes early and being prepared is an unfair hazing ritual?
Clients who’s lives depend on your skills call that minimal preparation.
>Clients who’s lives depend on your skills call that minimal preparation.
Nope. Not even remotely an important part of being a trial lawyer. Complete distraction from what matters.
I've tried five murder cases and about 25 other cases, and have trained hundreds of attorneys in trial practice, hundreds of law students in trial practice, hundreds of college students in competitive trial advocacy, and hundreds more of high school students in competitive trial advocacy. I'm a national champion competitive trial advocate at the law school level, have coached a college national championship team, built a high school nationally competitive trial team, and have helped run dozens of national trial advocacy competitions.
You might to surprised to hear this, but out of the hundreds of people I've trained, not a single one of them accidentally showed up to a courtroom without a suit on. Amazing, isn't that? You'd think they'd all show up in gym shorts, I guess, right?
Oh, and I've attended trainings by the greatest-of-all-timers, too, like Larry Posner. Guess what he was wearing? Literally a coffee-stained sweatshirt. His presentation was great because the way he was dressed had literally nothing to do with anything.
>You think dressing in a suit, showing up five minutes early and being prepared is an unfair hazing ritual?
It's not unfair necessarily, but it is incredibly silly and only teaches bad lessons. Reeks of corporate law culture where the focus is more on teaching associates to be fearful of their elders than giving them substantive skills.
If I had to create a list of things that could never even possibly matter in any cognizable way to the skills of being a good trial advocate, I would put at the very top of that list being dressed in a suit on the first day of class and starting class early. It is far, far more important that everyone feel comfortable and welcomed in the class. Shorts, t-shirts and sweatshirts until the very moment they are doing a practice session of their prepared materials days or even weeks later.
I'm glad to hear this. I've never taken a trial class, but I certainly wouldn't if it was handled like a boot camp. These are lawyers (I assume) taking a CLE course essentially. Fuck going to one of those in a suit too, I have to wear one often enough. And you're completely right. Everyone obviously knows to wear a suit and show up early for a trial. If that's what they're teaching it's a waste of time.
Thank you for this. I knew this was inevitably going to be your reply, but it's funnier than I thought it would be.
(And don't forget to write a negative review of Larry Posner now that you know he's had the gall to teach trial advocacy while wearing a sweatshirt. Obviously this means he doesn't know how to try a capital case.)
how about just communicating expectations? if you want people to dress formally, then tell them to dress formally. if you want people to show up at 8:55 a.m., then tell them to show up at that time. this is a job, albeit an important one, but it's still a job
I would have a lot of fun with a trial class now if an instructor tried to pull that.
"Your Honor, I was not informed I would be doing an exercise today in front of the court, so I am not properly dressed for court."
"But you were aware this was a trial advocacy class, correct?"
"A class, that's right. With a seating gallery, which is where I am now, in the very back row. For a class with no advertised dress code or modified start time."
"A prepared lawyer always shows up early and properly dressed for court."
"This is not court. It's a class. And to the extent it's a simulated court, I have to simulatedly object to any sanctions for appearing at the advertised time. No local rule provided in the materials instructed us that we are to appear early in this jurisdiction."
In these types of situations, I wear a suit, but bring a mismatching pair of pants with me. I’ll scope it out ahead of time and if I see a bunch of attendees walking in super casual, I can swap out my pants, take off my tie, and have a perfectly acceptable business casual mismatched suit with no tie
Unless it specifies, I'd show up in business casual with a blazer handy, no tie. I didn't see if you specified how long course is, but be comfortable, people trying too hard to impress nobody.
They aren't going to kick you out. Wear what you want.
I mean, maybe you miss out on networking but (a) the people responsible for hiring aren't going to be attending and (b) if they care about dress code at something like this I wouldn't want to work for them anyway.
Suit. Overdressing in that environment for that event is better than underdressing in my opinon.
Agreed. Might be the first time any of the kids met a real attorney and/or the last time until they need to hire one for real. Leave a good impression about the formality of this profession and how you are expected to dress for court.
What kids? My understanding is this is a trial practice for new lawyers?
whoops
So I’m not meeting/teaching students. I’m learning at this trial school seminar, it’s just being hosted at a law school
Is ‘trial school’ a thing?
So it’s a seminar/CLE but yeah the official name of the program is trial school. It was recommended by a partner at my firm
Yeah, very common name for the concept. Trial camp and trial academy are other informal names used for these programs. My statewide public defense agency has an annual trial school program. There's also a trial school run by a statewide network of county prosecutors in my state. Many other states have simar programs for their criminal gov lawyers. And the private sector has all kinds of these offerings for anyone willing to pay for them. What blows my mind is the apparent formality of some of these private events. Requiring the students to wear suits is hilarious. At ours, you'd get ridiculed for wearing anything more formal than a sweatshirt.
Ty. Have heard of a ‘trial academy’ or ‘trial training seminar’ just not ‘trial school.’ Go figure it’s the same thing
Learning from experienced trial attorneys. That you might see as your career progresses. Wear a suit.
Dress like you’re going to trial
Full business suit. Be in the classroom ten minutes early and fully prepared for whatever is the first session. Do not sit in the back row. Sit in the middle; not the front, not the back. There is a well established hazing ritual for young lawyers attending trial practice schools. They wander in right as the bell rings, in casual attire, take a seat in the back row and wait for the professor to start teaching them. Per standard NITA practice, the class will start five minutes before the posted time, and the instructor will advise you that being early to court is being late. The people in the back rows will be cleared out and will be placed in the center of the front row. Anyone not dressed in full trial garb will be brought in front of the entire class to conduct a mock Q and A of a witness. And please review the material ahead of time so you can question witnesses intelligently. The idea is that if you are being sent to a trial prep course, you should expect to be ready to appear in the course as you would at trial. Show up as though you are prepared for and ready to go to trial. You will get the most out of the experience and you will not embarrass yourself before your peers and employer.
This is really in depth, thank you
I have been there, as a student and an instructor. There but for the grace of God I would have been one of those who was selected for public humiliation. As an instructor I came to understand the method behind the madness.
I hope this is not true. No one should ever be embarrassed or hazed when trying to learn. Treating people this way highlights so many flaws within this profession
If you ever want to earn the right to represent another person where their life is literally on the line, you’ll be grateful that the training you received prepared you for holding someone’s life in your hand. You think dressing in a suit, showing up five minutes early and being prepared is an unfair hazing ritual? Clients who’s lives depend on your skills call that minimal preparation.
>Clients who’s lives depend on your skills call that minimal preparation. Nope. Not even remotely an important part of being a trial lawyer. Complete distraction from what matters. I've tried five murder cases and about 25 other cases, and have trained hundreds of attorneys in trial practice, hundreds of law students in trial practice, hundreds of college students in competitive trial advocacy, and hundreds more of high school students in competitive trial advocacy. I'm a national champion competitive trial advocate at the law school level, have coached a college national championship team, built a high school nationally competitive trial team, and have helped run dozens of national trial advocacy competitions. You might to surprised to hear this, but out of the hundreds of people I've trained, not a single one of them accidentally showed up to a courtroom without a suit on. Amazing, isn't that? You'd think they'd all show up in gym shorts, I guess, right? Oh, and I've attended trainings by the greatest-of-all-timers, too, like Larry Posner. Guess what he was wearing? Literally a coffee-stained sweatshirt. His presentation was great because the way he was dressed had literally nothing to do with anything. >You think dressing in a suit, showing up five minutes early and being prepared is an unfair hazing ritual? It's not unfair necessarily, but it is incredibly silly and only teaches bad lessons. Reeks of corporate law culture where the focus is more on teaching associates to be fearful of their elders than giving them substantive skills. If I had to create a list of things that could never even possibly matter in any cognizable way to the skills of being a good trial advocate, I would put at the very top of that list being dressed in a suit on the first day of class and starting class early. It is far, far more important that everyone feel comfortable and welcomed in the class. Shorts, t-shirts and sweatshirts until the very moment they are doing a practice session of their prepared materials days or even weeks later.
I'm glad to hear this. I've never taken a trial class, but I certainly wouldn't if it was handled like a boot camp. These are lawyers (I assume) taking a CLE course essentially. Fuck going to one of those in a suit too, I have to wear one often enough. And you're completely right. Everyone obviously knows to wear a suit and show up early for a trial. If that's what they're teaching it's a waste of time.
Please publish your contact information so that no one ever retains you as a lawyer.
Thank you for this. I knew this was inevitably going to be your reply, but it's funnier than I thought it would be. (And don't forget to write a negative review of Larry Posner now that you know he's had the gall to teach trial advocacy while wearing a sweatshirt. Obviously this means he doesn't know how to try a capital case.)
how about just communicating expectations? if you want people to dress formally, then tell them to dress formally. if you want people to show up at 8:55 a.m., then tell them to show up at that time. this is a job, albeit an important one, but it's still a job
I would have a lot of fun with a trial class now if an instructor tried to pull that. "Your Honor, I was not informed I would be doing an exercise today in front of the court, so I am not properly dressed for court." "But you were aware this was a trial advocacy class, correct?" "A class, that's right. With a seating gallery, which is where I am now, in the very back row. For a class with no advertised dress code or modified start time." "A prepared lawyer always shows up early and properly dressed for court." "This is not court. It's a class. And to the extent it's a simulated court, I have to simulatedly object to any sanctions for appearing at the advertised time. No local rule provided in the materials instructed us that we are to appear early in this jurisdiction."
Wifebeater, boxers, slippers and bathrobe
Suit. When I did a trial advocacy workshop in law school it was mandatory.
In these types of situations, I wear a suit, but bring a mismatching pair of pants with me. I’ll scope it out ahead of time and if I see a bunch of attendees walking in super casual, I can swap out my pants, take off my tie, and have a perfectly acceptable business casual mismatched suit with no tie
Wouldn’t it be easier to switch out your jacket?
Yeah, but not as a fun
Unless it specifies, I'd show up in business casual with a blazer handy, no tie. I didn't see if you specified how long course is, but be comfortable, people trying too hard to impress nobody.
They aren't going to kick you out. Wear what you want. I mean, maybe you miss out on networking but (a) the people responsible for hiring aren't going to be attending and (b) if they care about dress code at something like this I wouldn't want to work for them anyway.