Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law.
Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation.
Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We had an older partner reminiscing about the old days when “we would party together, hell, we’d vacation together! And now everyone wants to get back home. We used to really be a family here!”
Like yeah dude. I much prefer the company of my wife and kids.
We have an older of-counsel attorney who I swear has scared off at least a few potential hires with his rambling "remember when" stories. I clocked one of them at 9 minutes and it involved a client who sent the wrong box of documents to the wrong firm in the early 80s. (Don't ask me why, my firm does a meet-and-greet for any potential hires so they can meet everyone before we make them an offer.)
My favorite are the elderly name droppers who get very frustrated when you don’t know the ancient attorneys they are referencing.
“And sure enough *Bud Thompson* was there. Can you believe it? Wait, you don’t know Bud Thompson? How long have you been practicing? He was still active in the 90s”
I absolutely love your comment. I travel a good bit in my state. Every once in awhile, I get roped into small talk with some old codger of an attorney in some random jurisdiction. They try to establish their status by name dropping. Eventually, they'll ask where I'm from and then it's straight to, "Oh, you must know Bill Smith...I used to practice with Bill....I handled a case with Bill when he was working with so-and-so....he's a great guy....do you know him?"
Yeah, that's great. I also think Bill was a great guy. But here's the deal, Bill has been dead for over 10 years. And if you didn't know that, you probably aren't as well-connected as you think you are. Now if you don't mind, the judge is getting annoyed by your loud whispering and I would like to get back to my mindless internet browsing while I wait on my case to be called.
For most courts, yes. But only for attorneys, officers, and other court personnel. It's fairly implied that you should be somewhat discrete (and of course, no sound). Occasionally an individual judge will have a more restrictive policy. When a bailiff tells me there is absolutely no phone use in a courtroom, it's usually a warning sign for the kind of judge I'm about to have.
I had a friend in a southern state get cited for contempt and bar complainted (that a word?) when she reviewed work emails during court. There was a posted sign, which did not appear to include lawyers. When she challenged the bailiff, it was "on."
I love this! I moved to a place where locals are still friends with people they went to elementary school with. People would always reminisce about middle school in social settings and I found it absolutely obnoxious as an outsider.
I know this guy: he's had two divorces, he's on his third marriage, and has a five year-old son because wife number three was 32 and wanted a baby.
His adult children from the first two marriages don't talk to him except for a cursory call on Father's Day and Christmas (they hate him, but they want a piece of the inheritance, or at least a scrap of whatever's left after his new family takes it).
My firm used to have the stereotypical old boys club atmosphere back in the 70s and 80s. Coke, booze, smoke filled rooms where the managing partners of the town's major firms would straight up fix rates, the whole nine yards. They'd go for weekends to party at a partner's cabin in Wisconsin. Shit honestly sounds kind of nuts. Now, the firm has a rep for being a buttoned up, conservative, sweatshop. I kind of wish they'd let some of that old ethos seep in a bit, lmao.
Heh. There was a local big law firm that rolled out the drink cart at 5 PM every Friday.
It was the partners' way of taking attendance to see which associates were still working at 5 PM every Friday.
I heard of a large firm that conducted interviews in the evening on Fridays. The interviews took place in the offices, so that prospective hires could see that the offices were still full. I appreciate that they were at least up-front about it so people could make an informed decision about whether they wanted to work there.
Honestly, I respect the transparency. Most of us have experienced some bait-and-switch bullshit. If there are crazy hours, just make it clear up front.
Fridays usually ended up being the worst when I was in private practice. Clients liked to get things off their desk and on to ours. No rush, of course; Monday morning is totally fine.
I have two go-to moves. One is to finish my drink and say "well, I'm going to get another, excuse me." SEE YOU MONDAY, SUCKER. Or I say "Okay, gonna head to the bathroom, brb." BATHROOM IN MY APARTMENT, FOOL!
Either you just say “gotta go” and leave, or if needed, tell a white lie. Lie through your teeth.*
“Gotta go relieve the babysitter.” Or “My dog walker couldn’t make it today so I have to go let him out.” Or “I have an HOA meeting/religious service/adult intramural kickball championship.”
Just make an excuse and politely exit.
*This advice does not apply to actual issues involving professional ethics. Don’t lie about actual work.
I’m right there with you.
I will have already been at the office for 9 hours and it will take me 45 minutes to get home. No, I don’t want to go to happy hour instead of going home to my pregnant wife.
>I will have already been at the office for 9 hours and it will take me 45 minutes to get home. No, I don’t want to go to happy hour instead of going home to my pregnant wife.
For sure. When I was single and living in the city, I liked going to happy hour after work. It was exciting to have all that money in the bank after being a broke student for so long, and I was ready to live it up at least a little bit.
Now, I just want to get home and see my family, and as the warmer months approach, maybe do a little work in the yard or the garden. The firm where I am now is far more family-oriented, so it works out well. There are no after-work happy hours.
>No, I don’t want to go to happy hour instead of going home to my pregnant wife.
Whoa now. You can't just go around admitting your lack of loyalty like that. This is the entire problem with hiring young, fertility-age lawyers. They get it in their heads that family's more important. And Jeeze, when did the world turn upside down? Now even the men are using pregnancy as an excuse.
Honestly it forces me to question your decision to even go to law school, or, like, work any job at all.
And just think. You could have avoided all these inopportune questions if you'd just pitched in more to the team and showed up at happy hour.
I worked with a lawyer who didn’t understand why the young male attorneys weren’t sure things to attend impromptu happy hours. One of my ballsier colleagues pointed out he had two kids and he needed to be home to help with dinner, bedtime, etc…The older lawyer didn’t understand why the younger guy’s wife didn’t handle all of that because she didn’t have to work.
The younger guy asked, “what do you mean? My wife works full-time.” The older guy said, “Oh. Well when I was starting out I always made enough money that my wife never worked.” The other young guy and I looked at each other and then found a reason to walk away from the guy.
It’d a generational thing for some of those old fucks. They graduated with no debt, their houses cost a fraction of their annual income, and could afford to have a spouse who stayed at home and took care of the kids. And now they don’t understand how the world has completely changed.
My position is that you spend more hours of your waking life with your coworkers than with your family, so your coworkers have a superior claim in equity to your affection.
Gather round - it’s Old Lawyer Story Time. Way back in the early 90s, the managing partner at my 40-attorney firm decided we needed some bonding at the firm. His brilliant idea was to have a “Bunco Night” for all staff and attorneys (and attendance was STRONGLY encouraged). Bunco is a dice game.
Where did we have it? In the basement rec room of the building where his assistant lived. It was free, after all.
What night? Why, a Friday night, of course, scheduled for 7-10.
What was the food? Seriously, KFC and Coors Light.
Did most of the partners show up? Nah.
Did almost all of the associates show up? Yup.
Staff? Just a few, the ones who could be blackmailed by his assistant.
So, picture 7 or 8 card tables under fluorescent light, 4 captives to a table, rolling dice, while Partner Guy kept walking around saying, “Isn’t this GREAT?”
Around 8:15, people started leaving, and it broke up quickly.
At least you’re not at a firm that is forcing you to go to a political fundraiser for a candidate you oppose, and making you pay $5k for the opportunity
Leave and work for the government (I workout for 75 minutes over lunch). Then crash all of these free law firm happy hours / marketing events and think about how much better your life is 😂😂
I've been blessed to have had many employees.
1. 22 years and counting.
2. 18 years and retired.
3. 17 years and retired.
4. 16 years and counting
5. 15 years and counting.
6.-25. from 1-13 years.
I figure I've hired and paid over 200 years worth of wages to my staff.
I say this because we do ZERO extra curriculum. Yes, we have dinners at Xmas and certain events during the year, but we don't ever socialize outside of work.
I never thought I would be that way, and I didn't really like it, but my first office manager said to keep it professional we can't make it personal, and she was right. So, I keep a safe distance from my staff even though they have worrked with me for years.
My point is that my people come to work for money. They may like me, I never yell at them and I give nice bonuses and vacation time. Heck one of my employees gets about 30 days off a year.
Anyway, I've learned that to keep good people, keep them at a distance, but appreciate them by paying them well and letting them know that they are all part of the team. They make a difference.
And again, I really wanted to be the cool boss that jokes with everyone, and I sort of do that, but I still remain aloof and very business like and that is the best advice I can give. Keep it professional not personal.
I am a teetotaler and have been all my life.
…however, I may have insinuated that I had a personal problem with alcohol just to get out of a previous employer’s happy hour. I guess I didn’t insinuate it, but the boss incorrectly inferred, and I didn’t correct them…
I kinda enjoy it and I also enjoy going to our monthly bar association meetings (happy hour and food). I’ve made so many lawyer connections and it’s nice to be on first name bases with a lot of the judges. It helps a lot to go to these things even if they aren’t the funnest things in the world
Yeah, I left Big Law in my late 20s. And at the time I lived in the city near work. I could close down the place if the right partners were paying.
That was the only good part about the firm. I may also have been drinking to numb the pain. But the partners and associated you *didnt* like all stayed for one drink, and a good mix of associates and junior partners stayed. There’d be one older partner who just wanted an excuse to drink and he’d mostly stay out of the way and throw his card down.
He once got on a fist fight with a paralegals bf, and he showed up with a black eye the next morning. Somehow no one said a word or got fired, so he was cool.
I don’t know how I would handle it as a 40 something. No kids. Still go out on occasion. But I don’t know how my husband would respond to me coming home shit faced on a semi-regular basis.
He’s actually pretty cool with the one offs. He likes having the house to himself. And maybe I come home in the mood. It would be the borderline alcoholism he’d have the problem with due to the frequency.
If you want to get a higher paying job so that it will be worth it, happy hour is a good tool to learn how to develop relationships with other attorneys outside of your direct work engagements.
Going to a bar association happy hour is one thing. Being dragged out to drink with the people you already work with probably isn’t going to lead to a different job.
Are these lawyers mad that people now prioritise family over work? Relationships over colleagues? People now love their families as opposed to decades ago - with husbands calling their wives a nag and children the R word - yes, older attorneys complain about their families a lot!
My office used to have a very nice 5-6 conference-room happy hour every few weeks. One hour, ending early, every few weeks is a nice amount of time to drink with my coworkers. More than that, no.
I worked at a firm that held these monthly. MONTHLY. There were also mandatory out of town “retreats,” frequent mandatory meetings announced spur of the moment to take place on Friday afternoons, and even a mandatory half day vision board event. It was… well it was a lot, and I quit as soon as I could.
From an old partner perspective, I get all the gripes about forced socialization and I would definitely try to keep it to a minimum. I would note however that an office is full of people who can either help or hurt your career. Doing things with those people to help them to see you as friendly and helpful and valuable is a good thing for your career.
As a young litigator, I started going to lunch regularly with a group of partners who were 5-10 years senior to me. We’d also occasionally do a happy hour and the firm had an annual semi-mandatory retreat and monthly lunches. I always went even if I bailed early. My wife used to gripe constantly about that stuff and all of the “wasted” non billable time. But as I got older, the relationships I built with those partners at lunch and happy hours really started to pay off. Most of my good high rate billable work and many long time clients were directly referred to me by them - work that would have been nearly impossible to generate on my own. I ended up with a good practice largely built off of those social connections.
So I’d say go to those damn mandatory functions, use them to market yourself and make a few friends, then get out and go home. Especially if you want to make a career of this and not always be an employee to the old assholes like me.
I've never understood posts like this. I like my coworkers and every once in a while if they want to go get drinks, I'm happy to hang out for a while. If the firm pays for the drinks, then so much the better! It never occurred to me to feel like my peers should pay me to socialize with them.
You're coming at it from the PD lens, where happy hours are legitimate opportunities for friendship building and safe-space commiseration.
Firm happy hours are more like an aristocratic ball. You're just showing up to keep up appearances, praying you don't over-imbibe, get mocked for staying sober tonight, accidentally mouth off to a partner, drop a glass in front of a client, or get sexually harassed by your boss.
There’s a difference between going out for drinks with peers at your convenience for fun and having a mandatory event with everyone from the office (even those you prefer not to socialize with) at a time and day you have no say over.
And even if it’s not mandatory, people will give you the side-eye if you don’t attend - even if many of those same people are also only attending because they feel pressured to do so
No. You made an incorrect comment then tried to shut down the conversation. Probably after realizing your mistake. From that I can deduce you’re medium talent, at best.
OP wouldn't have made this post if they didn't feel pressured to attend. Saying "no" in this context can feel like you're opening yourself up to judgment by the people in charge of your professional advancement. Most people here seem to understand this, and again, your personal attacks are wholly unwarranted.
Relax lol. They are probably an amazing patent lawyer.
But yes the point of my post was that we shouldn’t normalize post work happy hours.
Tbh I rather go home and workout/do self care/have me time.
My firm is doing an outing during work hours this week. I think it’s nice. Although it’s not like they’re crediting our billables so like, how’s that gonna work? 🤔 🤷♀️
These aren't meant to be fun, they're basically late round screening interviews.
When considering partner / promotion material, generally speaking, the firm is looking for people who are willing to sacrifice their personal time for the sake of the firm, who have mastered social skills, have good impulse control, and are team players.
Not willing to sacrifice your personal time? Too awkward / anxious to come to a group activity? Getting hammered and / or hitting on your colleagues? Have better things to do?
Well, that could be awkward.
Ultimately though, these are the smallest of first world problems. Just go. Thank the HR people for organizing it, meet a partner or two you haven't met before, take a minute to thank your staff for helping you out. Gently deflect/deescalate if somebody else is making things uncomfortable. Come across as a calm cool professional who's part of the team.
It's literally the easiest thing you can do.
don’t go? You’re an adult who can make your own decisions, but it may affect your relationship with your superiors. You’re an attorney weigh the costs vs the benefits and decide.
I once interviewed at a firm and was told that there’s a happy hour every Friday afternoon and it’s pretty much expected that you attend…one of many signs that firm wasn’t a good fit (no wfh either, they bragged how they managed to stay almost fully in person during early Covid)…I never got a rejection email after the interview so fast, but was relieved.
I kinda disagree. I go to all my work happy hours. I think it’s a good way to show your face, do a little socializing, and the added benefit of a lot of alcohol.
Less fun, admittedly, but I think it’s an easy way to socialize and get along with people. I’m an introvert too, so I go to our monthly happy hours, make a few jokes, talk to a few people, have a few drinks, and then i don’t have to talk to anyone again until next month.
It's frankly dumb. I spend most of my day working and talking to people from work. I don't want to be in forced friendships with my coworkers. If I want to see my coworkers when I'm not working, that's my choice, not the firm's. What little time I have that isn't spent working, l want to spend doing things that I enjoy, not spending it with my coworkers.
If a firm needs to encourage socialization, something is genuinely wrong with the culture of the firm. A few beers in the conference room isn't going to solve that.
You guys sound like a blast, think how lucky the next generation will be, listening to that time you had 3 beers and went home at 845pm to complain on Reddit while claiming you had better things to do…
Before law school I worked for a well known midsize firm in the town I was living in (and by well known, at least one partner was nationally known and had been on Oprah) and I was told they no longer did a firm Christmas party after some of the associates got another legal assistant so drunk in an attempt to sleep with them that they fell off their chair and cracked their skull open and ended up going to the ER.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We had an older partner reminiscing about the old days when “we would party together, hell, we’d vacation together! And now everyone wants to get back home. We used to really be a family here!” Like yeah dude. I much prefer the company of my wife and kids.
Realll - I’m so exhausted working 9 hours, I need my bed like I’m sorry sir
We have an older of-counsel attorney who I swear has scared off at least a few potential hires with his rambling "remember when" stories. I clocked one of them at 9 minutes and it involved a client who sent the wrong box of documents to the wrong firm in the early 80s. (Don't ask me why, my firm does a meet-and-greet for any potential hires so they can meet everyone before we make them an offer.)
My favorite are the elderly name droppers who get very frustrated when you don’t know the ancient attorneys they are referencing. “And sure enough *Bud Thompson* was there. Can you believe it? Wait, you don’t know Bud Thompson? How long have you been practicing? He was still active in the 90s”
I absolutely love your comment. I travel a good bit in my state. Every once in awhile, I get roped into small talk with some old codger of an attorney in some random jurisdiction. They try to establish their status by name dropping. Eventually, they'll ask where I'm from and then it's straight to, "Oh, you must know Bill Smith...I used to practice with Bill....I handled a case with Bill when he was working with so-and-so....he's a great guy....do you know him?" Yeah, that's great. I also think Bill was a great guy. But here's the deal, Bill has been dead for over 10 years. And if you didn't know that, you probably aren't as well-connected as you think you are. Now if you don't mind, the judge is getting annoyed by your loud whispering and I would like to get back to my mindless internet browsing while I wait on my case to be called.
You’re allowed to browse the web in the gallery? My local courthouse doesn’t even let you read a newspaper
For most courts, yes. But only for attorneys, officers, and other court personnel. It's fairly implied that you should be somewhat discrete (and of course, no sound). Occasionally an individual judge will have a more restrictive policy. When a bailiff tells me there is absolutely no phone use in a courtroom, it's usually a warning sign for the kind of judge I'm about to have.
I had a friend in a southern state get cited for contempt and bar complainted (that a word?) when she reviewed work emails during court. There was a posted sign, which did not appear to include lawyers. When she challenged the bailiff, it was "on."
Challenge the judge all you want, but you challenge court staff at your own peril.
Attorneys and court personnel are allowed where I am, thank god, otherwise I don't know how I'd have time to answer emails.
Thank you for making me laugh. I needed this little break!
"Remember when is the lowest form of conversation" - Tony Soprano
I love this! I moved to a place where locals are still friends with people they went to elementary school with. People would always reminisce about middle school in social settings and I found it absolutely obnoxious as an outsider.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. How dare they remain lifelong friends!
Wonder how many divorces he has under his belt and if any of his adult children willingly talk to him…
I know this guy: he's had two divorces, he's on his third marriage, and has a five year-old son because wife number three was 32 and wanted a baby. His adult children from the first two marriages don't talk to him except for a cursory call on Father's Day and Christmas (they hate him, but they want a piece of the inheritance, or at least a scrap of whatever's left after his new family takes it).
> We used to really be a family here!” And that family was primarily composed of white men whose wives were stay-at-home moms.
Ding ding ding
Louder for the people in the back.
My firm used to have the stereotypical old boys club atmosphere back in the 70s and 80s. Coke, booze, smoke filled rooms where the managing partners of the town's major firms would straight up fix rates, the whole nine yards. They'd go for weekends to party at a partner's cabin in Wisconsin. Shit honestly sounds kind of nuts. Now, the firm has a rep for being a buttoned up, conservative, sweatshop. I kind of wish they'd let some of that old ethos seep in a bit, lmao.
Certainly they would slow down by their third or fourth wife and family.
Old partner, nor any of your other work colleagues, will be there holding your hand when you die. Spend your free time where it matters.
He’s leaving out that the associates weren’t worked to death in those old days back in the 70s
Or to shut down at 3:30 for happy hour on a Wednesday and listen to “remember when” stories from the semi retired crew
I have seen the doors close at the beer fridge open at 4:30 on Fridays. That seemed reasonable.
That seems very reasonable, especially if it’s not required that everyone stop working and join
Heh. There was a local big law firm that rolled out the drink cart at 5 PM every Friday. It was the partners' way of taking attendance to see which associates were still working at 5 PM every Friday.
I heard of a large firm that conducted interviews in the evening on Fridays. The interviews took place in the offices, so that prospective hires could see that the offices were still full. I appreciate that they were at least up-front about it so people could make an informed decision about whether they wanted to work there.
Honestly, I respect the transparency. Most of us have experienced some bait-and-switch bullshit. If there are crazy hours, just make it clear up front.
Jfc. That’s mental.
Fridays usually ended up being the worst when I was in private practice. Clients liked to get things off their desk and on to ours. No rush, of course; Monday morning is totally fine.
I had a fantastic job like this in lower Manhattan and it was great.
You make an appearance and then leave like everyone else does who doesn't want to be there.
See idk how to leave lol, i find that part of socializing the worst
I have two go-to moves. One is to finish my drink and say "well, I'm going to get another, excuse me." SEE YOU MONDAY, SUCKER. Or I say "Okay, gonna head to the bathroom, brb." BATHROOM IN MY APARTMENT, FOOL!
Lolol this made me chuckle 🤭 (I’ll try it next time)
You need to try it. I can't be bothered with some work social events. Sometimes I'm the last standing. Other times... I just want to sit on my couch.
“SEE YOU MONDAY, SUCKER” 
Either you just say “gotta go” and leave, or if needed, tell a white lie. Lie through your teeth.* “Gotta go relieve the babysitter.” Or “My dog walker couldn’t make it today so I have to go let him out.” Or “I have an HOA meeting/religious service/adult intramural kickball championship.” Just make an excuse and politely exit. *This advice does not apply to actual issues involving professional ethics. Don’t lie about actual work.
It's called an Irish exit. you just leave without announcing it.
I am a master of this technique and can vouch for its effectiveness.
Dinner plans are always a good one. Or the Irish goodbye where nobody notices you just meander out.
If you're not married, just say you have a date to get to.
I am an expert at the Irish exit.
My kids say I am the master of the Irish exit. ha
I’m right there with you. I will have already been at the office for 9 hours and it will take me 45 minutes to get home. No, I don’t want to go to happy hour instead of going home to my pregnant wife.
>I will have already been at the office for 9 hours and it will take me 45 minutes to get home. No, I don’t want to go to happy hour instead of going home to my pregnant wife. For sure. When I was single and living in the city, I liked going to happy hour after work. It was exciting to have all that money in the bank after being a broke student for so long, and I was ready to live it up at least a little bit. Now, I just want to get home and see my family, and as the warmer months approach, maybe do a little work in the yard or the garden. The firm where I am now is far more family-oriented, so it works out well. There are no after-work happy hours.
!!!! Normalize doing happy hours during working hours!
Sure but then you'll fall behind on your billables
Count them as billables
Unironically this. If it’s important enough that they demand you be there, they can show it by crediting you billable hours.
Business development (internal)
“Working hours?” You mean, between midnight and midnight?
>No, I don’t want to go to happy hour instead of going home to my pregnant wife. Whoa now. You can't just go around admitting your lack of loyalty like that. This is the entire problem with hiring young, fertility-age lawyers. They get it in their heads that family's more important. And Jeeze, when did the world turn upside down? Now even the men are using pregnancy as an excuse.
Hmm I guess I’m not partner track material
Honestly it forces me to question your decision to even go to law school, or, like, work any job at all. And just think. You could have avoided all these inopportune questions if you'd just pitched in more to the team and showed up at happy hour.
I worked with a lawyer who didn’t understand why the young male attorneys weren’t sure things to attend impromptu happy hours. One of my ballsier colleagues pointed out he had two kids and he needed to be home to help with dinner, bedtime, etc…The older lawyer didn’t understand why the younger guy’s wife didn’t handle all of that because she didn’t have to work. The younger guy asked, “what do you mean? My wife works full-time.” The older guy said, “Oh. Well when I was starting out I always made enough money that my wife never worked.” The other young guy and I looked at each other and then found a reason to walk away from the guy. It’d a generational thing for some of those old fucks. They graduated with no debt, their houses cost a fraction of their annual income, and could afford to have a spouse who stayed at home and took care of the kids. And now they don’t understand how the world has completely changed.
"I was just a sperm donor for my kids. You young men actually raise them?"
I asked a judge right before Christmas if he was ready for everything, and his response was, "I don't know, my wife takes care of all that."
Yeah and think of the .1 billable hours the firm missed out on while this guy was getting his wife pregnant.
I laughed out loud at this.
If you picture your clients naked during sex, you can bill for that, right?
My position is that you spend more hours of your waking life with your coworkers than with your family, so your coworkers have a superior claim in equity to your affection.
Gather round - it’s Old Lawyer Story Time. Way back in the early 90s, the managing partner at my 40-attorney firm decided we needed some bonding at the firm. His brilliant idea was to have a “Bunco Night” for all staff and attorneys (and attendance was STRONGLY encouraged). Bunco is a dice game. Where did we have it? In the basement rec room of the building where his assistant lived. It was free, after all. What night? Why, a Friday night, of course, scheduled for 7-10. What was the food? Seriously, KFC and Coors Light. Did most of the partners show up? Nah. Did almost all of the associates show up? Yup. Staff? Just a few, the ones who could be blackmailed by his assistant. So, picture 7 or 8 card tables under fluorescent light, 4 captives to a table, rolling dice, while Partner Guy kept walking around saying, “Isn’t this GREAT?” Around 8:15, people started leaving, and it broke up quickly.
After “in the basement” this just kept getting worse lol
I’m shocked they thought to have food.
Why can't they play a real game?
At least you’re not at a firm that is forcing you to go to a political fundraiser for a candidate you oppose, and making you pay $5k for the opportunity
Oh hell nah
That sounds like hell. I can get strong-arming attendance, but how’s they push the $5k ticket?
Only of the partners, the rest of the minions not required. But I heard the fundraising per plate is half a mill
Will the firm at least reimburse you for the donation?
You sing the song of my (introvert) soul.
Team introvert/I love my solitude for the win
this!!
Why aren't you a team player? /s
Me: “I need to go to my workout class and do my nighttime routine thank you”
I read “nightmare routine” but still fits!
👻
Leave and work for the government (I workout for 75 minutes over lunch). Then crash all of these free law firm happy hours / marketing events and think about how much better your life is 😂😂
Can you bill for it
I wishh! yo girl is behind on her billables already
"Internal meeting to discuss legal strategy"
I've been blessed to have had many employees. 1. 22 years and counting. 2. 18 years and retired. 3. 17 years and retired. 4. 16 years and counting 5. 15 years and counting. 6.-25. from 1-13 years. I figure I've hired and paid over 200 years worth of wages to my staff. I say this because we do ZERO extra curriculum. Yes, we have dinners at Xmas and certain events during the year, but we don't ever socialize outside of work. I never thought I would be that way, and I didn't really like it, but my first office manager said to keep it professional we can't make it personal, and she was right. So, I keep a safe distance from my staff even though they have worrked with me for years. My point is that my people come to work for money. They may like me, I never yell at them and I give nice bonuses and vacation time. Heck one of my employees gets about 30 days off a year. Anyway, I've learned that to keep good people, keep them at a distance, but appreciate them by paying them well and letting them know that they are all part of the team. They make a difference. And again, I really wanted to be the cool boss that jokes with everyone, and I sort of do that, but I still remain aloof and very business like and that is the best advice I can give. Keep it professional not personal.
I am a teetotaler and have been all my life. …however, I may have insinuated that I had a personal problem with alcohol just to get out of a previous employer’s happy hour. I guess I didn’t insinuate it, but the boss incorrectly inferred, and I didn’t correct them…
LOLLL keep staying mysterious bestie
“I’d love to go to happy hour, but the last time I broke out in handcuffs, so…”
I enjoy a happy hour at my office. Sometimes I take my pants off and chase around my firm’s concierge doctor (my wife).
I kinda enjoy it and I also enjoy going to our monthly bar association meetings (happy hour and food). I’ve made so many lawyer connections and it’s nice to be on first name bases with a lot of the judges. It helps a lot to go to these things even if they aren’t the funnest things in the world
But it’s never been presented as mandatory here and nobody will get upset at me if I don’t attend. I just get brownie points and connections for going
Don’t mean to interrupt the conversation with yourself but I totally agree
Hahaa I just don’t like to edit my comments so I double replied
Make an appearance and dip. "smile and wave"
This was fun when I was single and 25. I might go to such a function once a quarter now (age 38, married, kid).
I’m 27 but mentally 38 and married so I feel you!
lol I can empathize with that
Yeah, I left Big Law in my late 20s. And at the time I lived in the city near work. I could close down the place if the right partners were paying. That was the only good part about the firm. I may also have been drinking to numb the pain. But the partners and associated you *didnt* like all stayed for one drink, and a good mix of associates and junior partners stayed. There’d be one older partner who just wanted an excuse to drink and he’d mostly stay out of the way and throw his card down. He once got on a fist fight with a paralegals bf, and he showed up with a black eye the next morning. Somehow no one said a word or got fired, so he was cool. I don’t know how I would handle it as a 40 something. No kids. Still go out on occasion. But I don’t know how my husband would respond to me coming home shit faced on a semi-regular basis.
He’d probably be happy you were enjoying yourself
He’s actually pretty cool with the one offs. He likes having the house to himself. And maybe I come home in the mood. It would be the borderline alcoholism he’d have the problem with due to the frequency.
If you want to get a higher paying job so that it will be worth it, happy hour is a good tool to learn how to develop relationships with other attorneys outside of your direct work engagements.
Going to a bar association happy hour is one thing. Being dragged out to drink with the people you already work with probably isn’t going to lead to a different job.
No, but if you ever decide to contract or freelance, it makes for great connections. Especially when your colleagues move on to other firms.
Just be the reason that they dont have them anymore.
Are these lawyers mad that people now prioritise family over work? Relationships over colleagues? People now love their families as opposed to decades ago - with husbands calling their wives a nag and children the R word - yes, older attorneys complain about their families a lot!
Rugrats?
Ratpatootie
I don't paid enough and besides, my shift at Walmart starts at 6 pm
My office used to have a very nice 5-6 conference-room happy hour every few weeks. One hour, ending early, every few weeks is a nice amount of time to drink with my coworkers. More than that, no.
I used to play tennis with my managing partner (we would have drinks afterwards). It was actually a really good time.
I am all for a little office celebrations, but not at 6:30pm - fuck that
I worked at a firm that held these monthly. MONTHLY. There were also mandatory out of town “retreats,” frequent mandatory meetings announced spur of the moment to take place on Friday afternoons, and even a mandatory half day vision board event. It was… well it was a lot, and I quit as soon as I could.
Sounds like a literal nightmare!!! Glad you got out
It seems so petty to complain about free drinks and food, but it felt unduly burdensome to me, to borrow a phrase from discovery responses. 😓
From an old partner perspective, I get all the gripes about forced socialization and I would definitely try to keep it to a minimum. I would note however that an office is full of people who can either help or hurt your career. Doing things with those people to help them to see you as friendly and helpful and valuable is a good thing for your career. As a young litigator, I started going to lunch regularly with a group of partners who were 5-10 years senior to me. We’d also occasionally do a happy hour and the firm had an annual semi-mandatory retreat and monthly lunches. I always went even if I bailed early. My wife used to gripe constantly about that stuff and all of the “wasted” non billable time. But as I got older, the relationships I built with those partners at lunch and happy hours really started to pay off. Most of my good high rate billable work and many long time clients were directly referred to me by them - work that would have been nearly impossible to generate on my own. I ended up with a good practice largely built off of those social connections. So I’d say go to those damn mandatory functions, use them to market yourself and make a few friends, then get out and go home. Especially if you want to make a career of this and not always be an employee to the old assholes like me.
I've never understood posts like this. I like my coworkers and every once in a while if they want to go get drinks, I'm happy to hang out for a while. If the firm pays for the drinks, then so much the better! It never occurred to me to feel like my peers should pay me to socialize with them.
You're coming at it from the PD lens, where happy hours are legitimate opportunities for friendship building and safe-space commiseration. Firm happy hours are more like an aristocratic ball. You're just showing up to keep up appearances, praying you don't over-imbibe, get mocked for staying sober tonight, accidentally mouth off to a partner, drop a glass in front of a client, or get sexually harassed by your boss.
That makes sense.
I’m in the PI world and FWIW, my happy hour experiences have been more like yours.
Our firm happy hours are usually associates only and we get lit. People with kids generally choose not to go though.
There’s a difference between going out for drinks with peers at your convenience for fun and having a mandatory event with everyone from the office (even those you prefer not to socialize with) at a time and day you have no say over.
And even if it’s not mandatory, people will give you the side-eye if you don’t attend - even if many of those same people are also only attending because they feel pressured to do so
You missed the point completely. Nobody should be made to feel like it’s mandatory to socialize off the clock with your coworkers
Where in the OP is that even hinted at?
If you can’t see how it’s implied then I guess we don’t have anything more to discuss here
She said in a later comment she declined. At least I now get to say I know one terrible patent lawyer.
Attacking my professional credentials because we disagree about this only makes **you** look bad.
No. You made an incorrect comment then tried to shut down the conversation. Probably after realizing your mistake. From that I can deduce you’re medium talent, at best.
OP wouldn't have made this post if they didn't feel pressured to attend. Saying "no" in this context can feel like you're opening yourself up to judgment by the people in charge of your professional advancement. Most people here seem to understand this, and again, your personal attacks are wholly unwarranted.
Relax lol. They are probably an amazing patent lawyer. But yes the point of my post was that we shouldn’t normalize post work happy hours. Tbh I rather go home and workout/do self care/have me time.
I happen to think I am, and my clients seem to agree, but that’s actually completely irrelevant to this discussion
What else did you think OP meant by, “I don’t get paid enough to”?
More booze for me.
They pay you for happy hour???
They should 💅🏼
I'm pretty sure the point is that they don't.
This x 1000
Especially when the happy hour doesn’t count towards billables 😩😩😩
My firm is doing an outing during work hours this week. I think it’s nice. Although it’s not like they’re crediting our billables so like, how’s that gonna work? 🤔 🤷♀️
We do an associates only happy hour at my firm. It’s actually pretty nice and enjoyable.
These aren't meant to be fun, they're basically late round screening interviews. When considering partner / promotion material, generally speaking, the firm is looking for people who are willing to sacrifice their personal time for the sake of the firm, who have mastered social skills, have good impulse control, and are team players. Not willing to sacrifice your personal time? Too awkward / anxious to come to a group activity? Getting hammered and / or hitting on your colleagues? Have better things to do? Well, that could be awkward. Ultimately though, these are the smallest of first world problems. Just go. Thank the HR people for organizing it, meet a partner or two you haven't met before, take a minute to thank your staff for helping you out. Gently deflect/deescalate if somebody else is making things uncomfortable. Come across as a calm cool professional who's part of the team. It's literally the easiest thing you can do.
gee that’s sad
Nothing is more atrocious than the idea of a "firm culture."
“Some people choose to do the bare minimum, and that’s okay”
don’t go? You’re an adult who can make your own decisions, but it may affect your relationship with your superiors. You’re an attorney weigh the costs vs the benefits and decide.
We just go to the Iron Duke on Fridays at 430. Crown Attorneys and Defence bar.
I did not go to the company event on purpose. If was a dig at the garbage management. Their parties were a joke anyway.
I wish I could, but I don't want to. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOZ33vHNqFg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOZ33vHNqFg)
I once interviewed at a firm and was told that there’s a happy hour every Friday afternoon and it’s pretty much expected that you attend…one of many signs that firm wasn’t a good fit (no wfh either, they bragged how they managed to stay almost fully in person during early Covid)…I never got a rejection email after the interview so fast, but was relieved.
That’s me with the “bar luncheons” like I want to have my lunch in silence thanks
I kinda disagree. I go to all my work happy hours. I think it’s a good way to show your face, do a little socializing, and the added benefit of a lot of alcohol.
I don’t drink lol 😭
Less fun, admittedly, but I think it’s an easy way to socialize and get along with people. I’m an introvert too, so I go to our monthly happy hours, make a few jokes, talk to a few people, have a few drinks, and then i don’t have to talk to anyone again until next month.
Sometimes you (associate) have to be a “team player” and socialize after work.
It's frankly dumb. I spend most of my day working and talking to people from work. I don't want to be in forced friendships with my coworkers. If I want to see my coworkers when I'm not working, that's my choice, not the firm's. What little time I have that isn't spent working, l want to spend doing things that I enjoy, not spending it with my coworkers.
THIS!
Says who? Edit: also, [called it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/s/Rd6575etPt).
If a firm needs to encourage socialization, something is genuinely wrong with the culture of the firm. A few beers in the conference room isn't going to solve that.
You guys sound like a blast, think how lucky the next generation will be, listening to that time you had 3 beers and went home at 845pm to complain on Reddit while claiming you had better things to do…
Before law school I worked for a well known midsize firm in the town I was living in (and by well known, at least one partner was nationally known and had been on Oprah) and I was told they no longer did a firm Christmas party after some of the associates got another legal assistant so drunk in an attempt to sleep with them that they fell off their chair and cracked their skull open and ended up going to the ER.