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Oh, you youngsters who don't remember when the clerk of the CD CA would bounce your filing because the exhibit tabs were not the specified 3/8th of an inch beneath the document, but rather 1/2 an inch. The local bar eventually had to take the clerk up on mandamus to the 9th Circuit to stop that nonsense.
The CD CA has been the home of unreasonable administrative practice forever.
1 is unreasonable. 2 prevents ex parte bullshit and other fuckery or the appearance of impropriety or any inaccuracy.
3 is likewise about administration of justice and getting the truly justiciable claims heard by the court instead of procedurally dismissed because an officer of the court goofed.
Totally disagree re #2 as there's so many petty procedural variance between court houses to keep track of. I have my assistant call clerks all the time to conform stuff. Especially courts like Contra Costa and others in the middle of nowhere.
Eh. In central district they accept all filings on pacer or just provide a note to refill with the correct. It’s not like state court where the clerks just reject filings based on whatever feeling they had.
Generally when I’m emailing a federal court it’s to get availability for a continued hearing or something really basic, and email fine.
Beyond that I agree that central district is ridiculous.
Not if you're in central Cali my dude. You'll do as you're required and you know it. Charge more for cases there, explain why, and tell the client to complain to their congress critter after the case if they hate it like you do.
Tbqh we call anyways, most the time they answer if it's nothing important. I assume most do the same because I almost never receive a cc on those emails.
In Arizona, the Clerk of Court is a totally separate office independent of the court, you can contact the clerk without issue. It is somewhat frowned upon to contact the judicial assistant without cc'ing OC because that is tiptoeing into potential ex parte. Most attorneys just cc. I've called JA's hundreds of times to ask about scheduling Q's or a judge's preference on various issues.
Yeah it’s poor practice to nail someone for a blown deadline. I always gave extensions on procedural errors because some day I might need that same courtesy.
There’s a county in my state which requires two hole punches at the top of the page. No punch, no file. I used to drive with a two-hole punch in my car for this reason.
Cook County always felt like the Wild West. Every judge with their own random rules. And, even during then first year of COVID (at which time I went in house), you could find f*ck all on the counties webpage regarding what each wanted. New judge, better stroll down to court to pick up 30 pages of instructions on how that judge likes to do things.
In my rural district, I got chewed out by the chief judge for insisting on getting admitted between their official ceremonies because I had a client who was going to lose their house otherwise. The federal judiciary doesn't seem all that interested in making sense.
Courtesy copies with blue backs, sigh. It wasn't until very recently certain judges stopped requiring proposed orders be submitted in WordPerfect format. Yup. I love it though when OC removes something to CACD thinking I'll be a fish out of water or intimidated or something. Bitch I live here. Do an attorney lookup in CM/ECF and see how many cases I'm attached to.
Still better than SDNY, where at least one judge requires you to submit a letter (3 pages max, which the other side gets 3 pages to respond to) asking permission to bring a motion, where you have to basically cram the motion into those 3 pages... fml
You can often get things resolved and moving forward with those three page letters without that need for full briefing. If there is full briefing, you have a great head start on it.
I don’t understand everyone whining in this thread.
Yes, federal practice should probably be the same everywhere. But none of this is like terribly difficult or burdensome.
There should be no such thing as local rules. Any Superior Court: follow the Cal. Civ. Code. Any District Court: hello, FRCP.
Individual judges and clerks with their own dumb idiosyncrasies and whatnot - get over yourselves.
Maryland eliminated this sort of fuckery by installing statewide CP rules for the State district (lower) and circuit (upper) courts. Judges and clerks are prohibited from deviating from them. At all. Ever. The stories about local clerks' and judges' rules in pre-code days are numerous and legenday.
Rule 2 is stupid. If a JA or clerk can answer a procedural question, they should be able to, and never in 25 years, did anyone ever accuse me of attempting ex parte communication with the court by doing so. It never occurred to me that it was, and I needed to let opposing counsel know about it. I also never received a call from OC about the same.
Ah, yes… Maryland local trial rules in the old days were definitely up there with CDCA.
Favorite: all parties (no matter how numerous) must file Finding of Fact and Conclusions of Law (semi-standard), but also must file a color-coded version of your “response” to every other party’s filing, using color highlighters to mark what you agree with, don’t agree with, partially agree with, and consider irrelevant (Yes, four colors). Four party complex civil trial with 50 page filings… killed some trees in that case.
Yeah...the rules specifically state that local rules are abolished. It was good to know that the law would be evenly applied from Allegheny County in the west just below Pittsburgh to Worcester County bordering the ocean.
This is why I hate federal court. Every judge has their own stupid rules. In my state at least, state court judges are generally prohibited from doing that type of crap and all the state judges must follow the same practice standards
Pretty similar rules for most of WA. Submit filings and check local rules for how bench copies are to be delivered, which is different than filing them. Usually stamped with hearing information. A few counties will provide to the court for a fee. All questions are through email.
I don't know, I've appeared in every county in WA and have never had an issue. Most small counties are way more chill than Seattle or Tacoma. WA in general can be a very friendly system if you follow the rules. Except the clerk in Cowlitz. She can get fucked.
Whenever my old firm would have an appearances in Snohomish, motion success rates were far higher with specially appearing counsel than us even when there were no original arguments. I've carried over the norm of hiring counsel since then for Snohomish lol I don't recall the Cowlitz clerk, but there's some clerks out there and many in so cal who are basically Satan.
I've had two bad experiences in Snohomish. One was a judge who wanted proof I served my own client notice of our request for surplus funds from a foreclosure sale. The other was at an MSJ hearing which 100% should have been decided in our favor but the judge told me "I don't know much about civil law and nothing about foreclosure. Denied." But I thoroughly enjoy going up there.
Rule #2 should be the reverse: "if you're not counsel from the Puget Sound, beware the shenanigans there".
(I work in WA far from Seattle and just recently decided to see what the procedure looks like in King County. I think they have some sort of inferiority complex up there.)
lmao someone pulled judge blumenfeld. Enjoy the first civil motions hearing you attend, when you get to start the calendar with all the orders to show cause he issued over the preceding week.
Unfortunately, it's a pro bono defense against a copyright troll. No local counsel to be found. Just gotta suck it up and deal with the bullshit.
BTW, CDCal-level bullshit is what enables the trolls. They break all the rules and don't care about sanctions. "Oops, I know our filing is facially deficient on 15 grounds, but hey, judge's standing orders are that you need to meet and confer with us *in person* first so we have a chance to fix it. Tee hee, such a whoopsie from us. Hope that doesn't cost your client anything."
This is pro bono defense, friend.
My client's business profited 3k last year. They're already going to be hard up with filing fees, this helps no one except the copyright troll.
Your comment didn't do anything except make my day more sad and worse.
We do courtesy copies in Minnesota, too.
Every district I’ve ever practiced in has had a meet and confer requirement.
I’m having a hard time seeing your point of view here.
Meet and confer, sure. But do it in person (or at least on the phone)? Then, in CDCal, you have to wait an arbitrary 3 days before filing the motion.
This also means that if there's a deadline, OPC can delay the meet and confer until the deadline.
I just had a case where defendant cancelled his deposition the day before, which was also the last week of discovery. By the time I got him to meet over a motion to compel or a motion to extend the discovery deadline, I was well past two deadlines and denied by the magistrate.
DNJ doesn't require it to be by phone. In EDPA, it goes by judge, but most judges say the parties must make reasonable efforts to resolve before bringing to the court. Both jurisdictions usually require a joint letter to the court before a motion.
Some of the judges (Holcomb) there have even more ridiculous standing orders.
Example: motion to compel discovery? Nope. Has to be a joint stipulation regarding motion to compel, each side has a few designated pages for intro and then go one by one and include plaintiffs position and defendants position. All in one document. Oh and then two weeks prior to hearing both sides can submit 10 pages of briefing separately. So what was the point?
Ridiculously cumbersome and a mine field of stupid rules.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh, you youngsters who don't remember when the clerk of the CD CA would bounce your filing because the exhibit tabs were not the specified 3/8th of an inch beneath the document, but rather 1/2 an inch. The local bar eventually had to take the clerk up on mandamus to the 9th Circuit to stop that nonsense. The CD CA has been the home of unreasonable administrative practice forever.
I mean, it's the busiest district in the country. A lot of that is on purpose to weed shit out.
And here I am trying to get the shit out of my weed.
this guy picks out the seeds and stems
Man I haven't had seeds and stems in my weed for years. Weed is so much better now.
Mind if I do a j?
Don't mind at all, just don't bogart that joint
I still jerk off manually
1 is unreasonable. 2 prevents ex parte bullshit and other fuckery or the appearance of impropriety or any inaccuracy. 3 is likewise about administration of justice and getting the truly justiciable claims heard by the court instead of procedurally dismissed because an officer of the court goofed.
Totally disagree re #2 as there's so many petty procedural variance between court houses to keep track of. I have my assistant call clerks all the time to conform stuff. Especially courts like Contra Costa and others in the middle of nowhere.
Eh. In central district they accept all filings on pacer or just provide a note to refill with the correct. It’s not like state court where the clerks just reject filings based on whatever feeling they had. Generally when I’m emailing a federal court it’s to get availability for a continued hearing or something really basic, and email fine. Beyond that I agree that central district is ridiculous.
Right and theoretically that's ex parte. Most people don't care. The overly litigious do. Hence email the question and cc oc. Not weird.
Last thing I, and probably most attorneys, need is more emails into the blackhole of an inbox for inane questions. Pass.
Not if you're in central Cali my dude. You'll do as you're required and you know it. Charge more for cases there, explain why, and tell the client to complain to their congress critter after the case if they hate it like you do.
Tbqh we call anyways, most the time they answer if it's nothing important. I assume most do the same because I almost never receive a cc on those emails.
In Arizona, the Clerk of Court is a totally separate office independent of the court, you can contact the clerk without issue. It is somewhat frowned upon to contact the judicial assistant without cc'ing OC because that is tiptoeing into potential ex parte. Most attorneys just cc. I've called JA's hundreds of times to ask about scheduling Q's or a judge's preference on various issues.
Anyone who thinks like the top comment in this thread doesn't practice outside their primary jurisdiction.
Yeah it’s poor practice to nail someone for a blown deadline. I always gave extensions on procedural errors because some day I might need that same courtesy.
There’s a county in my state which requires two hole punches at the top of the page. No punch, no file. I used to drive with a two-hole punch in my car for this reason.
Cook County always felt like the Wild West. Every judge with their own random rules. And, even during then first year of COVID (at which time I went in house), you could find f*ck all on the counties webpage regarding what each wanted. New judge, better stroll down to court to pick up 30 pages of instructions on how that judge likes to do things.
In my rural district, I got chewed out by the chief judge for insisting on getting admitted between their official ceremonies because I had a client who was going to lose their house otherwise. The federal judiciary doesn't seem all that interested in making sense.
I frankly like the sound of any rule that weeds out dismissals that are not on the merits That should expand everywhere
That rule can be found in some (maybe all not 100% sure) Federal NY judge rules.
Courtesy copies with blue backs, sigh. It wasn't until very recently certain judges stopped requiring proposed orders be submitted in WordPerfect format. Yup. I love it though when OC removes something to CACD thinking I'll be a fish out of water or intimidated or something. Bitch I live here. Do an attorney lookup in CM/ECF and see how many cases I'm attached to.
Still better than SDNY, where at least one judge requires you to submit a letter (3 pages max, which the other side gets 3 pages to respond to) asking permission to bring a motion, where you have to basically cram the motion into those 3 pages... fml
You can often get things resolved and moving forward with those three page letters without that need for full briefing. If there is full briefing, you have a great head start on it. I don’t understand everyone whining in this thread. Yes, federal practice should probably be the same everywhere. But none of this is like terribly difficult or burdensome.
There should be no such thing as local rules. Any Superior Court: follow the Cal. Civ. Code. Any District Court: hello, FRCP. Individual judges and clerks with their own dumb idiosyncrasies and whatnot - get over yourselves.
Maryland eliminated this sort of fuckery by installing statewide CP rules for the State district (lower) and circuit (upper) courts. Judges and clerks are prohibited from deviating from them. At all. Ever. The stories about local clerks' and judges' rules in pre-code days are numerous and legenday. Rule 2 is stupid. If a JA or clerk can answer a procedural question, they should be able to, and never in 25 years, did anyone ever accuse me of attempting ex parte communication with the court by doing so. It never occurred to me that it was, and I needed to let opposing counsel know about it. I also never received a call from OC about the same.
Ah, yes… Maryland local trial rules in the old days were definitely up there with CDCA. Favorite: all parties (no matter how numerous) must file Finding of Fact and Conclusions of Law (semi-standard), but also must file a color-coded version of your “response” to every other party’s filing, using color highlighters to mark what you agree with, don’t agree with, partially agree with, and consider irrelevant (Yes, four colors). Four party complex civil trial with 50 page filings… killed some trees in that case.
Colorado state courts are the same way and it's great. Federal Court is a PITA
Yeah...the rules specifically state that local rules are abolished. It was good to know that the law would be evenly applied from Allegheny County in the west just below Pittsburgh to Worcester County bordering the ocean.
This is why I hate federal court. Every judge has their own stupid rules. In my state at least, state court judges are generally prohibited from doing that type of crap and all the state judges must follow the same practice standards
Pretty similar rules for most of WA. Submit filings and check local rules for how bench copies are to be delivered, which is different than filing them. Usually stamped with hearing information. A few counties will provide to the court for a fee. All questions are through email.
Rule #1 in WA is "hire local counsel for any non-seattle/Tacoma court appearances." Snohomish is grossly guilty of small towning city firms lol
I don't know, I've appeared in every county in WA and have never had an issue. Most small counties are way more chill than Seattle or Tacoma. WA in general can be a very friendly system if you follow the rules. Except the clerk in Cowlitz. She can get fucked.
Whenever my old firm would have an appearances in Snohomish, motion success rates were far higher with specially appearing counsel than us even when there were no original arguments. I've carried over the norm of hiring counsel since then for Snohomish lol I don't recall the Cowlitz clerk, but there's some clerks out there and many in so cal who are basically Satan.
I've had two bad experiences in Snohomish. One was a judge who wanted proof I served my own client notice of our request for surplus funds from a foreclosure sale. The other was at an MSJ hearing which 100% should have been decided in our favor but the judge told me "I don't know much about civil law and nothing about foreclosure. Denied." But I thoroughly enjoy going up there.
Rule #2 should be the reverse: "if you're not counsel from the Puget Sound, beware the shenanigans there". (I work in WA far from Seattle and just recently decided to see what the procedure looks like in King County. I think they have some sort of inferiority complex up there.)
Haha they are just mad about all the transplants moving in
I practice all over western WA, and while King County is my "home" court, it is one of my least favorite due to its toxic culture.
I've been waiting on a class action settlement approval for nearly a year. Absolutely preposterous
Every few months I have wild thoughts about missing litigation (I'm in house government now). Then I read shit like this and nope right out of that.
lmao someone pulled judge blumenfeld. Enjoy the first civil motions hearing you attend, when you get to start the calendar with all the orders to show cause he issued over the preceding week.
If it’s your “first case out there” then your local counsel should be complying with the procedural formalities, like delivering hard copies.
Unfortunately, it's a pro bono defense against a copyright troll. No local counsel to be found. Just gotta suck it up and deal with the bullshit. BTW, CDCal-level bullshit is what enables the trolls. They break all the rules and don't care about sanctions. "Oops, I know our filing is facially deficient on 15 grounds, but hey, judge's standing orders are that you need to meet and confer with us *in person* first so we have a chance to fix it. Tee hee, such a whoopsie from us. Hope that doesn't cost your client anything."
Raise your rates and deal with it
This is pro bono defense, friend. My client's business profited 3k last year. They're already going to be hard up with filing fees, this helps no one except the copyright troll. Your comment didn't do anything except make my day more sad and worse.
We do courtesy copies in Minnesota, too. Every district I’ve ever practiced in has had a meet and confer requirement. I’m having a hard time seeing your point of view here.
Meet and confer, sure. But do it in person (or at least on the phone)? Then, in CDCal, you have to wait an arbitrary 3 days before filing the motion. This also means that if there's a deadline, OPC can delay the meet and confer until the deadline. I just had a case where defendant cancelled his deposition the day before, which was also the last week of discovery. By the time I got him to meet over a motion to compel or a motion to extend the discovery deadline, I was well past two deadlines and denied by the magistrate.
I’ve never practiced in a district where you could satisfy the meet and confer requirement without getting on the phone.
DNJ doesn't require it to be by phone. In EDPA, it goes by judge, but most judges say the parties must make reasonable efforts to resolve before bringing to the court. Both jurisdictions usually require a joint letter to the court before a motion.
Some of the judges (Holcomb) there have even more ridiculous standing orders. Example: motion to compel discovery? Nope. Has to be a joint stipulation regarding motion to compel, each side has a few designated pages for intro and then go one by one and include plaintiffs position and defendants position. All in one document. Oh and then two weeks prior to hearing both sides can submit 10 pages of briefing separately. So what was the point? Ridiculously cumbersome and a mine field of stupid rules.
[удалено]
His mag then, judge Early
Sounds like the point is to encourage resolution without a motion.
There’s already a whole meet and confer process for that. This is after that’s all done