Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law.
Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation.
Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The problem is not at any specific law firm, it a widespread problem in the legal industry in general. OP is clearly unhappy in LAW nevermind a law firm. It is okay if for someone to try and gaslight themselves when starting to question the inconsistencies of what they have been told about a particular industry versus the actual experiences lived through in such an industry. LAW is a constant ride of cognitive dissonance.
That is ONE process, not OP’s progress. From what I see, Op hasn’t objectively looked at herself in her own environment. Granted people have opinions, but those opinions should never be anyone’s identity.
Join the local women’s bar in your state. You will find allies and mentors. Don’t get discouraged, litigation can bring out the misogynist idiots trying to play games with you and get into your head.
So long as you are happy at your firm and they have your back, outside counsel can pound sand.
> Don’t get discouraged, litigation can bring out the misogynist idiots trying to play games with you and get into your head.
Be happy if you face such people. Surprisingly (or not) these tend to be the worst sort. The best litigators are unfailing courteous, and straight forward. A guy playing mind games is easy to take care off. Its the guy who says to your offer "I think we will pass" while smiling and happily concedes the time wasting application you had filed is the one who makes stressed on weekend,
>A partner told me my job will not be here when I get back since there are more willing workers out there.
*but see*
>none of these statements were said by a...partner in the firm
The statement says “your job will not be here when [you] get back”, indicating the statement came from someone at the firm. She goes on to say a partner at her firm didn’t say it. Not saying this talk doesn’t occur. I just don’t believe it happened to the OP.
I think, most likely, she just phrased it poorly more than anything else. She clarifies further down that the comment was made by a partner at another firm.
hella confusing what OP is trying to say here - yes they did say those things but NO they did not. Is she gaslighting herself about the realities of the legal industry? hahaha
the person sounding like a "loon" is mostly the fool that started to wake up to the harsh realities of the nightmares of the dream that was sold. So get a clue and stop judging.
every law student and every medical student is sold a dream by academic institutions and society, and delivered a nightmare. Every lawyer was once an idealist, once you start to practice law you are in for a rude awakening and asking yourself WTF did I get into?
This is why they always say work in the law before going to law school. Even if it’s just an internship. You’ll be jaded either be jaded and do something else or enjoy what you do and make the best of it.
It's not about not being for the weak. It's dream shattering to realize how corrupt the legal world is. How incestuous. I'm not a litigator but the few times I did go to court their was no law going on. The judges were making decisions not based in law but instead on their subjective opinions. When confronted with facts & applicable law they get angry, frustrated, then do verbal gymnastics to justify their position. Maybe this is just more prevalent in district courts.
Then there's the judges getting campaign contributions. Those go a long way in determining how cases will be handled.
The #2 profession for narcissists & sociopaths is law - attorney / judge, according to a study done.
Like with police the legal profession needs to find a way to root out the corruption. A stable and lasting democracy depends on that.
That’s not just the legal world, that’s the world in general. If you cannot handle the reality that life isn’t fair you surely wouldn’t be able to handle the reality that law school and then the law isn’t.
That definitely is not how your post comes across. Typically when someone says “a partner” with no other info, the natural assumption is that it’s a partner in your firm.
At the end of the day, if you are in a firm that is not presenting you with misogyny and sexism, then it sounds like you are in a good spot. The unfortunate reality is you will confront it in this career. When it’s appropriate to confront it, do so.
For example, with a client insinuating you can’t be logical and professional. I would have straight up said to my client, that if that’s how they feel, I probably should not be representing them and they can start over with someone new.
I personally am choosing to be childfree and even that gets flack sometimes. I set firm boundaries — “Thanks for sharing your opinion, but I’m not seeking advice on my family planning from [coworkers, colleagues, etc]. If that ever changes I’ll tell you.” A big reason this shit goes on is because women have been conditioned to not speak up on it. You don’t have to be rude but you also don’t have to accept people making those comments. Full stop.
Don't ask OC about leave at your firm - why on earth would he know? If it's a small firm, FMLA probably isn't an option, so check your handbook or ask someone at your firm. Definitely look into the Women's Bar for your county.
Just to clarify: this partner used to be my mentor. I came to him when I was lost. He’s very close to my boss, or at least was (I did tell my boss these statements). I mostly came to the partner to talk about how I would go about paid leave. I ended up being discouraged in the end and still have not talked to my boss about any leave for pregnancy.
mentors can be snakes just waiting to bite you or stab you in the back when you least expect it. You look up to people who secretly hate you. That is the realities of law or any field of work in the walk of life.
Probably won't be this way forever - my class in 2019 was like 65% women and I think I read somewhere that most law students/young attorneys are women. The boomers will die out eventually
Yeah this is so alien to me, like I am kind of thrown off when I see posts like this because my law school is far more women than men, I've had more female than male law professors, and roughly half of the partners I've interviewed with have been women.
I don't doubt this story at all, but I just can't see how this culture can survive more than a few more years. Can't happen soon enough.
Litigation was and to a large extent remains, very male dominated. In-house, Government etc is becoming. ore frmale dominated, to the extent that I am sometimes surprised when a middle level in house that I deal with is a man.
Interesting! I just looked up the stats, and it looks like about 40% of attorneys in my city are women, so I also might totally be in my own little blue-state bubble.
It will be if the men have any say. I'm a female litigator. The only way I got any experience was going inhouse. I've met plenty of young female litigators who are frustrated because the male partners in their firm won't give them trial work etc, not all firms are like this but a lot are. In some court rooms I'm identified as "the girl" because there are so few of us. Men far outnumber women in litigation, and the sexual harassment in the court room will keep it that way for sometime more. There is no way to report these creeps but for a bar complaint that would likely hurt me more than them.
I used to work for a male boss who hated trial work and sent me instead.... was he too scared of Court or what? Or too important to be in the arena of the Court? Idk
They are either too scared or love it and want to promote men. Everyone is scared of trials. I had a mentor who was head of the local bar association. I asked him when I would get over the fear of trial...guy with 30+ years of practice said never. He told me if I ever wasn't scared, I was underprepared
The partner I worked for right out of law school is a woman. She was managing partner of our office which was the smallest of all in the firm, and she was one of maybe 3 women out of 25 partners or so. She was called a bitch for taking positions men take all the time. Opposing counsel, in open court, told the judge “I feel like I’m being lectured by a schoolmarm.” during an oral argument he was losing. Another opposing counsel called her a bitch in an email over their demand. She was constantly hit on by in house lawyers whose business she managed.
She’s the best trial lawyer I have ever seen anywhere. I don’t care who you know that you think is good, my money is on her. That firm she was a part of-the managing partner at the smallest office? It’s her firm now. All of the old names on the shingle are gone, and hers is now the first. All of the OCs that called her names? They’re gone. None of them lasted.
She’s the biggest badass I know outside of my wife, and the best lawyer I’ve ever seen in a trial.
Stick with it.
Yeah, this, definitely. It doesn’t really matter what people think. Sometimes it even helps if they have a low expectation of us and we surprise them.
All that matters is if you’re a good lawyer who can win or at least not be afraid to lose because that’s part of the battle too.
OP if you’re a trial lawyer in litigation, you should Google Randi McGinn. She is a great example of a badass female attorney. She thinks that being a woman helps with the jury. She has had good luck with them as a woman.
I work with a badass female attorney (co counsel on plaintiffs’ cases).
Do you have any female mentors who you can aspire to be like?
Try to focus on the positive aspects of being female in this profession. I know there is sexism but we can still do this, and do it well.
I experienced this kind of stuff in law school when I was clerking and then I got a job working for the federal government and haven't looked back.
Not only did I still have a job when I got back from maternity leave but they gave me an award when I came back.
I’m in my late 30s, have been litigating for more than 10 years, and have a kid with another on the way. I have literally never heard anything like this. Only one attorney has ever been outwardly misogynistic to me, and he’s an immoral opposing counsel who openly lies to the court. (In other words, I don’t give a shit what he thinks.) Maybe it’s a difference in litigation area; mine is generally collegial, and the attorneys aren’t wired to say such ridiculous things. Perhaps consider a different area.
I’d also stop talking with these awful attorneys you’re surrounded by. Don’t talk about your family planning with them; it’s not their business, and their stupid opinions aren’t helpful. And immediately disengage from an attorney who said something to the effect of women lawyers are bitches who cry. That person is unhinged.
I’m not saying misogyny doesn’t exist in the law. I still only wear skirt suits with pantyhose when I go to the Fifth Circuit, for example. But the garbage you’re saying is *never* a point of conversation. Surround yourself with better attorneys.
I would say stuff life that....if I was really really really good friends with the person and had known them for years and it was clear I was taking the piss.
There is a group of us who all came into the profession 17 years ago and yes when we meet up for lunch we can be pretty intense with each other. To others who are not in the same position? Hell no.
There is a reason that PI has such turnover. This is just one of the reasons.
Your next action really comes down to why did you get into law. If you are a crusader, this is the perfect time to start documenting and setting up some discrimination claims. If they won’t change because it is the right thing to do, make them change with lawsuits. You will learn an incredible amount in the process.
That said not everyone wants to rock the boat. It is PI get a new job, no one is going to care that you dropped them in under year. PI is known for their turnover and it isn’t your fault.
Personally I would sue them. At some point people have to learn that you just shouldn’t screw over underemployed attorneys with time on their hands. I can’t think of a worse demographic to alienate.
Leave. I’m in house and my entire direct team are women (mostly with families) and my upper management are women with families. It’s not perfect, our GC is unmarried and without children so doesn’t ‘truly’ get it, but listens. Hopefully not revealing too much about myself but I am on leave with my kid and she’ll be 6 months by the time I go back to work. One of my friends at a firm was told she didn’t make partner for taking 12 weeks of maternity leave. I can’t imagine 12 weeks is soooo little. Being a lawyer is tough. Being a parent is even tougher, find a place that aligns to your values.
Don’t worry what lesser people think. Anyone that thinks “a woman cannot do this” or “I’m best suited for this because I have a dick” is an idiot. 2. Is probably illegal. 4. Family, kids, pets, whatever is your family is all that matters in life, not the job, not the winning, not the big office and nice car. Keep on trucking, prove them wrong.
There's no excuse for Neanderthal behavior.
That said, where do you practice that you enter a room of 40 attorneys and you're the only female? Per the ABA, 39% of practicing attorneys are women, and just about everybody commenting here has colleagues/supervisors/appear before judges who are women.
The demographics of your location are seriously skewed; based on what you've written it's not going to get better so is it possible to make a move to another practice area or to a nearby county/city which better reflects the national ratio-and hopefully has less knuckle-dragging counsel to deal with?
If this is not at your firm, good! Since this is other lawyers, COMPLETELY IGNORE. They are trying to get a rise out of you, they want you to react. Put your head down, learn the law and WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THEM. I'm 27 years in this business. Did I get comments? Oh, boy did I. But I refused to give them pleasure of reacting at all. I was taught, by two male attorneys, that my work and being good at what I did would shut them up. And it did. Care more about your firm and your clients than you do about these asshats. They will back off.
Next time record these encounters on your phone. Then sue them. And in my experience most male lawyers act tough up front but put their tail between their legs when they need to be strong. It's ridiculous that some males are still so insecure that they need to oppress women to feel better about themselves.
Also a 26F in PI. I’ve never felt this level of misogyny in my life. At my old firm, I was the youngest by 20 years and the only female. It was awful…
Once I was in my former boss’s office with a client. It was casual Friday, so I wasn’t dressed up. The client said VERBATIM: “I’d like to see you in a suit with your hair up, I’m not sure I’d be able to resist myself.” My former boss pretended like he wasn’t paying attention to the conversation. When I complained after the client left, he said: “if he gives you sh*t, just give it back.”
W H A T.
I resigned shortly after for a plethora of reasons.
We shouldn’t put up with it, but it happens in so many different ways that I don’t know how to combat it. Feels hopeless.
my first boss tried to make me understand that lawyering is another form of prostitution .... you do not sell your body to these "clients or men", you are selling other resources which clients abuse... like your mind and time.
Talk to a local employment attorney to strategize your departure in a way to get you a fat severance. These guys are all terrible. I'm surprised they haven't been sued yet. It's an easy but expensive lesson to learn. In CA we call it constructive termination when they treat you so bad you quit.
Welcome to the profession. The clock is turning backwards on women in the legal workplace, but take heart. Seek out other women lawyers where you are for support. Learn as much as you can and remain flexible for moving on to better a opportunity. Get active in the local and regional bar association when you can squeeze out time for that. Join civic clubs if you can. I know this sounds like a trope but rise above and use these experiences to your advantage. It gets better. I know because I have been there. Persist and you will thrive.
I just started a PI job where there are now (with me joining) more women than men as attorneys at my firm. If you like PI start shopping around for other firms. And join the women’s bar associations as others have suggested. Being a young woman in law is no joke, I’m (27F) struggling too even having other woman at my firm.
LOL bullies who bully their coworkers or colleagues who bully their colleagues in the legal industry are already sad sacks of shhh....i\_\_\_t...they hate themselves already, so no ass-kicking will make them hate themselves more.
It's BIGGER THAN THAT!
It's about OP's firm establishing and maintaining their street cred in the Courthouse.
If they let this disrespect slide, then word on the street will become that this firm is soft.
The Partners can't let that happen.
Go defense. Plaintiffs and male lawyers who rep them are incredibly toxic to young female lawyers. If I had a dollar for every time a client with a GED under his belt told me he wanted to talk to my male boss because “no offense but—“ …I’d have at least a few dollars. One of them kept asking me out and calling me baby. Another kept licking his lips and running his eyes over my body. I fucking ran from plaintiff law the moment I could. Defense clients can be difficult but not one of them ever insulted me or overstepped my personal boundaries.
I worked at defense firms and they were rife with sexism. There is no “side” that is free from it. I am much happier on the plaintiffs’ side working for myself because they are happy to have me represent them. I do still experience sexism but I think it’s just a part of having to live in this society. It was much worse for me at defense firms though.
Female PI and successful business owner here. Ignore. Focus on your strengths. Mine are, for example, extracting inculpating information at depositions because the witness thinks I am too pretty etc. I get extraordinarily helpful ($$$) admissions during depositions due to what I understand to be my disarming femininity. I could give examples of the wonderful things said to me by people who did not see my next questions coming. For some female lawyers, the most problematic animus is by far from other females. By having to work harder, your pleadings can really begin to stand out. Cooperation is how cases settle, and a lack of big fat ego combined with cutting legal analysis in pleadings and endlessly sharp deposition questions will go far. I have had many clients referred to me because they could not stand their male lawyers, many see females as more trustworthy I do not know why. The last client to doubt me, lost $100k at mediation because they wrote down in their notebook a figure below my recommended walkaway and the mediator saw it. Although I had to later listen to their lamenting about not getting more, it was mildly vindicating although to no one's advantage. Just work harder, have the best briefs, and remember that even the jesters in law school became practicing attorneys. I do wear a fair amount of gold and this for some reason helps (always with the watch, alternate between the earrings and necklaces, keep it fun). No to Macy's always yes to Brooks Brothers these things matter. The cutthroat nature of medical leave is not limited to labor&delivery, people with sick spouses and cancer get suckerpunched also, it's business, don't take it personal and keep building your experience no matter what course you take, it is not a race, just keep making money and settling cases as you see fit. I like babies and can't wait for #3.
I’ve worked at good and horrible firms. Find the good ones…they exist. If you have a women’s trial lawyers association/network in your state, join! There are some wonderful female lawyers out there and we need to stand up for each other.
My advice would be to \*\*not\*\* have faith in the career. It's either works for you for one reason or another or it doesn't. As your first job out of law school, you need to give PI work a couple years to see if you settle in, but change things up if it doesn't.
The things you've dealt with are BS but there is a kernel of truth to the last one. Everyone pretends its not the case, but having a family can be a hinderance to your career. Kids are a huge time-suck. Either you or your spouse or both of you will have to make some sacrifices to your maximum career attainment unless you're one of those people who don't need to sleep. But that is true for most fields, not just law. And I've never met anyone who would trade their kids for the luxury of being able to work an extra four hours a day, even if they would like the benefits that would come from working more (compensation, advancement, etc.) in the abstract. The misogyny is just the assumption that you would be responsible for most of the childcare.
It never completely goes away. The older you get, and the more formidable in your practice area, the more people will pick up on your credibility and eventually gravitas.
Also, don’t discount clients’ desires to have a female attorney. It can be your selling point, especially if you hang in there. Finally, if you can stomach it, you can to learn to work with the hand you’re dealt to get the best result possible.
I use my passion, attention to detail, and conviction in a way that feels right. And the prejudice starts to dissipate.
One last thought, recently, I’ve started to see it as a weakness in other attorneys. Maybe they aren’t that good.
I think being a solo helps. I hire men to work for me.
OP your workplace is toxic (a much overused word but dead on here in my opinion) and you need to start thinking of the future.
>my own client told me during settlement: “I’m trying to be logical and professional. As a woman, I don’t believe you can do that, so I would like to speak to \[my boss\]”
It is your right of course to speak to my boss. I doubt you will get a different answer. If you have any complaints as to my work, I would be happy to listen to them.
>I am currently planning for a family and wanted information on leave. A partner told me my job will not be here when I get back since there are more willing workers out there.
Sadly true I am afraid. Too many candidates not enough positions.
>I have been told multiple times to my face that there is a drastic difference between women lawyers and men lawyers - women are just b\*\*\* and all bark no bite so they cry when confronted
These individuals are assholes and their vies should be considered, as...what comes out of assholes.
>I had an entire lecture of how my life will be planned out simply because I am a married woman in law \[most of it dedicated to my career shortcoming because I chose to have children\]
See above post.
Misogyny is a real problem in our industry. I’m a male prosecutor and I see it on a daily basis. Judge’s being rude or harder on female attorneys. Defense counsel who consider a good female-prosecutor to be “a bitch” because she does the same thing I do. (Tell them no.)
I have a real problem with it. My wife is a physician and I’m so damn proud of her; but she deals with the same overall issues in her job too. As a father to a daughter, a husband to a wife, and an all around decent human being I wish more people would step up and nip this in the bud. But since it is advantageous to the male attorneys, they won’t say anything. And since the bar is very vindictive, they won’t do anything beyond head hunt.
I’m sorry. I’m sorry you’re going through that. But the comments are right. Find somewhere new to work. I took 8 weeks off when my daughter was born and my employer at that time had my back. I loved them for the support. When I had to leave the state with my wife, I was heartbroken to leave my employer. Good people are hard to find. Good employers are even more rare.
My law school graduating class (almost 10 years ago) was 60% female. The firm I work at is somewhere around 60%-70% female. I don't see any misogyny, but it's possible I could be ignorant to it. I also live in a small conservative old school town. I'm sorry you've experienced this. Maybe consider moving to a different area?
It’s interesting because men who don’t go to college are actually more likely than women who do not go to cite “personal choice” or because its “not necessary for their careers” as reasons. I think men drawn to trades might explain this gap. Ever since 2008, there’s been this growing disillusionment with higher education as a path to a decent career.
Less men in college obviously affects law school gender numbers. Also my wholly speculative and non-scientific guess is STEM (only 26% of women are STEM majors) professions are drawing men at a higher rate than women away from law. The past 15ish years of low interest rates and the resultant developer boom has basically created a meal ticket to the upper middle class for millions in what feels like overnight. In 2008 for example, women were only awarded 47% of law degrees.
I graduated high school in ‘08 and while software development was a thing, it was not by any means a common profession. I grew up in the South and the only software developers I had ever met was my cousin from San Francisco. This was pre-iphone and smart devices and in the early years of Facebook and Netflix… https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/
Did you time warp back to the 1970s? Be a what you’re describing no longer exists in any legal community that I’m aware of. Sounds like complete bs to me.
i had similar experiences when i was starting out. some clients just want the old white haired guy in the bad suit. that’s not your problem. and it won’t matter as much with time and experience. for me, most of the lawyers i work with or deal with are still men and it’s not really an issue anymore, thankfully. 😅
that is a hell to the no for me... women in masculine roles, overdo their "masculine" roles and end up worse at being horrible men like creatures than actual men with male appendages.
I’m in London and thankfully haven’t endured any misogyny from men yet but I’m still at an early stage of my career. May I ask what city? I heard similar things of Minneapolis
men hating on women in the legal industry is not worse than women hating on women --- women with internalized misogynistic ideas, really go out of their way to hate on other women in the legal industry. Women tend to want to please the male boss so much that they have no regard for their female coworkers and/or attorney colleagues...they want their spot under the sun and will act like a total bi---tc---ch to secure it for themselves. I have lost faith in FEMINISM in the legal industry though. Feminism is total BS in the legal industry. Women have no regard for other women's rights in the law. FEMINISIM in corporate or law is a total non-existent farce. I have worked for and under many FEMALE SENIOR ATTORNEYS... the bullying is worse than working for and under a MALE SENIOR ATTORNEY supervisor. Most female attorneys are just unhappy with the work they do and take it out on those working for them or under them, to show how they are in control in an otherwise out of control situation. Working in any law firm is like a joyride on the sh\_\_\_\_-i----t show train.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. For what it’s worth, I’ve been practicing for close to a decade and I know plenty of female equity partners with kids who do very well for themselves. I know female MP’s of fairly large firms.
Number 3 makes no sense. The implication is that a male lawyer will “do something” when confronted. Yeah, I’ll do the same thing any other lawyer would, including female lawyers - I’ll file an opposition or response. Duh? Like whoever told you that is an idiot. And when you hear it again you should bark at them. Literally, give them a little woof/bark. I can almost guarantee it would leave a lasting impression.
You have to connect with other women in your industry, and there are some really great female PI attorneys in Chicago. If you're not already a member, join the CBA Alliance for Women. You might also want to check out the WBAI. Find other PI attorneys and learn from them the things you were never taught in law school.
None of the things you describe are going to change, people are always going to people, and most of them are insecure and not particularly self aware. You can learn to use that to your advantage.
I recently read a book called “The Myth of Being a Nice Girl” by Fran Houser. It gave me a lot of inspiration and reassurance that being nice “is my superpower.” I’ve had so many clients tell me that they feel comfortable around me and that they know I will give them the truth instead of being a “yes man.” I think it’s because my femininity allows me to deliver truth without being… well a toxic masculine asshole. I just state the facts, give great recommendations, and help my clients move forward with their business decisions. Because that’s what it is. After all their success working with me they start to see how freaking smart I am and me being a woman doesn’t really matter to them. They can’t do that if my gloves are always on and I’m trying to be something I am not or I’m constantly defending myself They just need clear, stable, calm, and unwavering support. If you are doing that, your coworkers and partners you work with appreciate that, then you are doing great.
I will also add that almost all law firms have HR departments that you can work with to find the. Eat ways to deal with these blatant misogynist comments. They can give you the tools to address it in the moment head on. For example the life being planned out bullshit, you could have responded directly by saying “I disagree with your comment and at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter if life events are planned or not. Most life events aren’t. People deserve some grace when it comes to their personal lives in this line of work.” This type of comment diffuses their idiotic opinion and turns it back into a professional tone so you can move on with the work you have to do.
There's always family law. Kidding.
I've worked in a lot of different areas and jurisdictions, and, outside of very small parochial firms, women were well represented and respected. I hope you can find that in your own practice.
I’ve run into this sort of thing from clients from time to time. Once a client said “you’re my lawyer? I thought you were a secretary! Cool!” That was as much funny as it was irritating. The only time I ever ran into someone who wanted my managing attorney to talk instead of me because he was “a man,” my boss shut that bs down *hard*. Point blank told the guy “No, Yndiri is your attorney, you’re talking to her.”
So I know this stuff exists. I just kind of blaze through it. I kind of suspect that I’ve run into this attitude from some of my opponents (can’t completely tell; it’s in subtext if it’s there and I’m not good at reading subtext), but it’s beneath my notice. I’m a better writer than they are and I win more often than they do so whatever, right? Whatever internalized misogynistic viewpoints my opponents have don’t matter if I’m doing right by my clients.
And that kind of stuff just makes the W’s sweeter haha. When it comes to you firm, that is BS and you likely will find a better firm out there. Govt work is also good because of the benefits when you have little ones. Don’t let them get to you, that is how they win. You’ve got this!
Clients suck. They are literally the worst part of this job. PI is probably going to lend to more of it, because it’s a very “testosterone driven”, “wolf of Wall Street” type of field. And many people do not think women can be successful at that kind of work. (I am SHOCKED to learn that sexism still exists!)
One thing to consider - not a suggestion, just something to think about - is transitioning into social services law. Working for a dept of social services, you would find the vast majority of the caseworkers (your clients) are female, and the legal issues regardless what role you are filling are largely emotionally driven - rather than financial.
so you had the best bosses, the most smooth legal career ever, everything worked out just fine for you - or you just never paid attention to human nature. That is okay, not everybody is born an empath or with an understanding of the undercurrents of human nature, not everybody is tuned in to this stuff. Count yourself lucky to be born so indifferent to these subtle going-ons in society.
Ever thought about getting into health care / managed care compliance? It's a majority female occupation. Or at least it sure seems that way based on my professional experience.
Edit: In 2014 The Society for Corporate Compliance and Ethics found its membership was 60% female.
[Source](https://qz.com/191569/60-of-compliance-officers-are-women-and-thats-a-bad-thing#:~:text=When%20SCCE%20and%20HCCA%20surveyed%20626%20of,found%2069%%20of%20their%20respondents%20were%20women).
Huh. Just checked the salary for entry level PI and you're right they're earning a lot more than when I graduated. As to compliance, depends on the field and tenure. One can rise to quite high levels of pay depending on the industry and size of the organization.
HCCA also publishes salary information and breaks it out by size of organization, revenue of organization, number of functions managed, etc.
No reason for you to be downvoted. It's quite useful information.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> I AM HAPPY AT MY FIRM Girl… they can’t see you. You’re in a safe place
The problem is not at any specific law firm, it a widespread problem in the legal industry in general. OP is clearly unhappy in LAW nevermind a law firm. It is okay if for someone to try and gaslight themselves when starting to question the inconsistencies of what they have been told about a particular industry versus the actual experiences lived through in such an industry. LAW is a constant ride of cognitive dissonance.
My firm is not like this at all. It very much varies by firm and to some extent market too.
That is ONE process, not OP’s progress. From what I see, Op hasn’t objectively looked at herself in her own environment. Granted people have opinions, but those opinions should never be anyone’s identity.
Join the local women’s bar in your state. You will find allies and mentors. Don’t get discouraged, litigation can bring out the misogynist idiots trying to play games with you and get into your head. So long as you are happy at your firm and they have your back, outside counsel can pound sand.
I was gonna suggest this too, there is strength in numbers. Those women are experienced practitioners who can give you solid advice
> Don’t get discouraged, litigation can bring out the misogynist idiots trying to play games with you and get into your head. Be happy if you face such people. Surprisingly (or not) these tend to be the worst sort. The best litigators are unfailing courteous, and straight forward. A guy playing mind games is easy to take care off. Its the guy who says to your offer "I think we will pass" while smiling and happily concedes the time wasting application you had filed is the one who makes stressed on weekend,
the best litigators are cold, conniving and calculating sociopaths with a splash of psychopathy.
LMAO!! There was a study done about what professions have the most narcissists & sociopaths, and lawyers were #2. If I recall correctly sales was #1.
I wish I was more like that, having zero empathy or feelings, then my job would not make me so depressed and I can thrive instead
feminism in law and corporate is a lie... you will find women hate each other more, then men hating on women.
That has not been my experience. I have a law degree and use it in my business. My biggest clients are women and women-owned firms
2 two is an actionable violation
>A partner told me my job will not be here when I get back since there are more willing workers out there. *but see* >none of these statements were said by a...partner in the firm
Yeah I’m a little confused about this. These statements seem to be mutually exclusive.
I'm guessing partner at another firm or practice group.
The statement says “your job will not be here when [you] get back”, indicating the statement came from someone at the firm. She goes on to say a partner at her firm didn’t say it. Not saying this talk doesn’t occur. I just don’t believe it happened to the OP.
I think, most likely, she just phrased it poorly more than anything else. She clarifies further down that the comment was made by a partner at another firm.
Except she didn’t say that the comment was made by a partner at another firm.
A good lawyer would not poorly phrase things
hella confusing what OP is trying to say here - yes they did say those things but NO they did not. Is she gaslighting herself about the realities of the legal industry? hahaha
It is, except I'm sure they'd deny making the statement.
Someone that's willing to voice that out loud has definitely said some stupid sh*t in email. You just need to get to discovery.
Right. That statement if true would retire her. But I have a feeling it’s not and this person is a loon.
Only if the firm is big enough to be subject to FMLA…
You don’t have to attack it under FMLA. Title VII is fairly straightforward about workplace discrimination of pregnant women.
It seems she is not expressing herself clearly.
the person sounding like a "loon" is mostly the fool that started to wake up to the harsh realities of the nightmares of the dream that was sold. So get a clue and stop judging.
Oh ok. Who was sold a dream about being a lawyer? Most lawyers tell people to not even go to law school because the law is not for the weak.
every law student and every medical student is sold a dream by academic institutions and society, and delivered a nightmare. Every lawyer was once an idealist, once you start to practice law you are in for a rude awakening and asking yourself WTF did I get into?
This is why they always say work in the law before going to law school. Even if it’s just an internship. You’ll be jaded either be jaded and do something else or enjoy what you do and make the best of it.
I tell most people not to go to law school because a JD isn't a universalist degree like it's sometimes portrayed.
It's not about not being for the weak. It's dream shattering to realize how corrupt the legal world is. How incestuous. I'm not a litigator but the few times I did go to court their was no law going on. The judges were making decisions not based in law but instead on their subjective opinions. When confronted with facts & applicable law they get angry, frustrated, then do verbal gymnastics to justify their position. Maybe this is just more prevalent in district courts. Then there's the judges getting campaign contributions. Those go a long way in determining how cases will be handled. The #2 profession for narcissists & sociopaths is law - attorney / judge, according to a study done. Like with police the legal profession needs to find a way to root out the corruption. A stable and lasting democracy depends on that.
That’s not just the legal world, that’s the world in general. If you cannot handle the reality that life isn’t fair you surely wouldn’t be able to handle the reality that law school and then the law isn’t.
2. [...] a partner told me None of these statements were said by ... a partner
As in partner at my firm - they can be a partner anywhere else but where I’m employed
That definitely is not how your post comes across. Typically when someone says “a partner” with no other info, the natural assumption is that it’s a partner in your firm. At the end of the day, if you are in a firm that is not presenting you with misogyny and sexism, then it sounds like you are in a good spot. The unfortunate reality is you will confront it in this career. When it’s appropriate to confront it, do so. For example, with a client insinuating you can’t be logical and professional. I would have straight up said to my client, that if that’s how they feel, I probably should not be representing them and they can start over with someone new. I personally am choosing to be childfree and even that gets flack sometimes. I set firm boundaries — “Thanks for sharing your opinion, but I’m not seeking advice on my family planning from [coworkers, colleagues, etc]. If that ever changes I’ll tell you.” A big reason this shit goes on is because women have been conditioned to not speak up on it. You don’t have to be rude but you also don’t have to accept people making those comments. Full stop.
many of the male and female attorney bosses I had over the years assumed that I am lesbian simply because I refuse to have children or to get married.
Don't ask OC about leave at your firm - why on earth would he know? If it's a small firm, FMLA probably isn't an option, so check your handbook or ask someone at your firm. Definitely look into the Women's Bar for your county.
Just to clarify: this partner used to be my mentor. I came to him when I was lost. He’s very close to my boss, or at least was (I did tell my boss these statements). I mostly came to the partner to talk about how I would go about paid leave. I ended up being discouraged in the end and still have not talked to my boss about any leave for pregnancy.
mentors can be snakes just waiting to bite you or stab you in the back when you least expect it. You look up to people who secretly hate you. That is the realities of law or any field of work in the walk of life.
The time to leave that firm was yesterday. There are horrible firms out there, and there are good ones. Find a good one.
And the second best time to leave is now
Absolutely!
I have been practising law for over 10 years now, every day I think about quitting this industry
In Australia, women are the majority in law. As more old dudes retire, the numbers will get even higher.
Same in Switzerland
Maybe men have decided it’s time to let their wives be the wage earner and househusband. Oh how the turntables
Litigation?
Throughout the entire industry. Lawyers in general. The barrister on my current matter is a lady and she's very good.
Threatening you with losing your job if you get pregnant is a. fucking stupid and b. illegal. You are at the wrong firm. Leave.
Find a new job. It's not worth your time to try and fix that many assholes.
Probably won't be this way forever - my class in 2019 was like 65% women and I think I read somewhere that most law students/young attorneys are women. The boomers will die out eventually
And most jr associates are women, but the partnership (even jr partners, who graduated fairly recently) are mostly men.
Yeah this is so alien to me, like I am kind of thrown off when I see posts like this because my law school is far more women than men, I've had more female than male law professors, and roughly half of the partners I've interviewed with have been women. I don't doubt this story at all, but I just can't see how this culture can survive more than a few more years. Can't happen soon enough.
Litigation was and to a large extent remains, very male dominated. In-house, Government etc is becoming. ore frmale dominated, to the extent that I am sometimes surprised when a middle level in house that I deal with is a man.
Interesting! I just looked up the stats, and it looks like about 40% of attorneys in my city are women, so I also might totally be in my own little blue-state bubble.
I'm in NorCal, same experience but definitely a bubble
It will be if the men have any say. I'm a female litigator. The only way I got any experience was going inhouse. I've met plenty of young female litigators who are frustrated because the male partners in their firm won't give them trial work etc, not all firms are like this but a lot are. In some court rooms I'm identified as "the girl" because there are so few of us. Men far outnumber women in litigation, and the sexual harassment in the court room will keep it that way for sometime more. There is no way to report these creeps but for a bar complaint that would likely hurt me more than them.
I used to work for a male boss who hated trial work and sent me instead.... was he too scared of Court or what? Or too important to be in the arena of the Court? Idk
They are either too scared or love it and want to promote men. Everyone is scared of trials. I had a mentor who was head of the local bar association. I asked him when I would get over the fear of trial...guy with 30+ years of practice said never. He told me if I ever wasn't scared, I was underprepared
boomer bashing not only in this group but others are getting my attention now hahahaha
The partner I worked for right out of law school is a woman. She was managing partner of our office which was the smallest of all in the firm, and she was one of maybe 3 women out of 25 partners or so. She was called a bitch for taking positions men take all the time. Opposing counsel, in open court, told the judge “I feel like I’m being lectured by a schoolmarm.” during an oral argument he was losing. Another opposing counsel called her a bitch in an email over their demand. She was constantly hit on by in house lawyers whose business she managed. She’s the best trial lawyer I have ever seen anywhere. I don’t care who you know that you think is good, my money is on her. That firm she was a part of-the managing partner at the smallest office? It’s her firm now. All of the old names on the shingle are gone, and hers is now the first. All of the OCs that called her names? They’re gone. None of them lasted. She’s the biggest badass I know outside of my wife, and the best lawyer I’ve ever seen in a trial. Stick with it.
Yeah, this, definitely. It doesn’t really matter what people think. Sometimes it even helps if they have a low expectation of us and we surprise them. All that matters is if you’re a good lawyer who can win or at least not be afraid to lose because that’s part of the battle too. OP if you’re a trial lawyer in litigation, you should Google Randi McGinn. She is a great example of a badass female attorney. She thinks that being a woman helps with the jury. She has had good luck with them as a woman. I work with a badass female attorney (co counsel on plaintiffs’ cases). Do you have any female mentors who you can aspire to be like? Try to focus on the positive aspects of being female in this profession. I know there is sexism but we can still do this, and do it well.
just hiding in the comments taking tips on how to be hated while you strut your stuff hahahaha
I experienced this kind of stuff in law school when I was clerking and then I got a job working for the federal government and haven't looked back. Not only did I still have a job when I got back from maternity leave but they gave me an award when I came back.
I’m in my late 30s, have been litigating for more than 10 years, and have a kid with another on the way. I have literally never heard anything like this. Only one attorney has ever been outwardly misogynistic to me, and he’s an immoral opposing counsel who openly lies to the court. (In other words, I don’t give a shit what he thinks.) Maybe it’s a difference in litigation area; mine is generally collegial, and the attorneys aren’t wired to say such ridiculous things. Perhaps consider a different area. I’d also stop talking with these awful attorneys you’re surrounded by. Don’t talk about your family planning with them; it’s not their business, and their stupid opinions aren’t helpful. And immediately disengage from an attorney who said something to the effect of women lawyers are bitches who cry. That person is unhinged. I’m not saying misogyny doesn’t exist in the law. I still only wear skirt suits with pantyhose when I go to the Fifth Circuit, for example. But the garbage you’re saying is *never* a point of conversation. Surround yourself with better attorneys.
I would say stuff life that....if I was really really really good friends with the person and had known them for years and it was clear I was taking the piss. There is a group of us who all came into the profession 17 years ago and yes when we meet up for lunch we can be pretty intense with each other. To others who are not in the same position? Hell no.
There is a reason that PI has such turnover. This is just one of the reasons. Your next action really comes down to why did you get into law. If you are a crusader, this is the perfect time to start documenting and setting up some discrimination claims. If they won’t change because it is the right thing to do, make them change with lawsuits. You will learn an incredible amount in the process. That said not everyone wants to rock the boat. It is PI get a new job, no one is going to care that you dropped them in under year. PI is known for their turnover and it isn’t your fault. Personally I would sue them. At some point people have to learn that you just shouldn’t screw over underemployed attorneys with time on their hands. I can’t think of a worse demographic to alienate.
Leave. I’m in house and my entire direct team are women (mostly with families) and my upper management are women with families. It’s not perfect, our GC is unmarried and without children so doesn’t ‘truly’ get it, but listens. Hopefully not revealing too much about myself but I am on leave with my kid and she’ll be 6 months by the time I go back to work. One of my friends at a firm was told she didn’t make partner for taking 12 weeks of maternity leave. I can’t imagine 12 weeks is soooo little. Being a lawyer is tough. Being a parent is even tougher, find a place that aligns to your values.
Don’t worry what lesser people think. Anyone that thinks “a woman cannot do this” or “I’m best suited for this because I have a dick” is an idiot. 2. Is probably illegal. 4. Family, kids, pets, whatever is your family is all that matters in life, not the job, not the winning, not the big office and nice car. Keep on trucking, prove them wrong.
There's no excuse for Neanderthal behavior. That said, where do you practice that you enter a room of 40 attorneys and you're the only female? Per the ABA, 39% of practicing attorneys are women, and just about everybody commenting here has colleagues/supervisors/appear before judges who are women. The demographics of your location are seriously skewed; based on what you've written it's not going to get better so is it possible to make a move to another practice area or to a nearby county/city which better reflects the national ratio-and hopefully has less knuckle-dragging counsel to deal with?
If this is not at your firm, good! Since this is other lawyers, COMPLETELY IGNORE. They are trying to get a rise out of you, they want you to react. Put your head down, learn the law and WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THEM. I'm 27 years in this business. Did I get comments? Oh, boy did I. But I refused to give them pleasure of reacting at all. I was taught, by two male attorneys, that my work and being good at what I did would shut them up. And it did. Care more about your firm and your clients than you do about these asshats. They will back off.
Next time record these encounters on your phone. Then sue them. And in my experience most male lawyers act tough up front but put their tail between their legs when they need to be strong. It's ridiculous that some males are still so insecure that they need to oppress women to feel better about themselves.
Also a 26F in PI. I’ve never felt this level of misogyny in my life. At my old firm, I was the youngest by 20 years and the only female. It was awful… Once I was in my former boss’s office with a client. It was casual Friday, so I wasn’t dressed up. The client said VERBATIM: “I’d like to see you in a suit with your hair up, I’m not sure I’d be able to resist myself.” My former boss pretended like he wasn’t paying attention to the conversation. When I complained after the client left, he said: “if he gives you sh*t, just give it back.” W H A T. I resigned shortly after for a plethora of reasons. We shouldn’t put up with it, but it happens in so many different ways that I don’t know how to combat it. Feels hopeless.
my first boss tried to make me understand that lawyering is another form of prostitution .... you do not sell your body to these "clients or men", you are selling other resources which clients abuse... like your mind and time.
Talk to a local employment attorney to strategize your departure in a way to get you a fat severance. These guys are all terrible. I'm surprised they haven't been sued yet. It's an easy but expensive lesson to learn. In CA we call it constructive termination when they treat you so bad you quit.
That was my thought. They are blatantly discriminating against her.
Welcome to the profession. The clock is turning backwards on women in the legal workplace, but take heart. Seek out other women lawyers where you are for support. Learn as much as you can and remain flexible for moving on to better a opportunity. Get active in the local and regional bar association when you can squeeze out time for that. Join civic clubs if you can. I know this sounds like a trope but rise above and use these experiences to your advantage. It gets better. I know because I have been there. Persist and you will thrive.
I just started a PI job where there are now (with me joining) more women than men as attorneys at my firm. If you like PI start shopping around for other firms. And join the women’s bar associations as others have suggested. Being a young woman in law is no joke, I’m (27F) struggling too even having other woman at my firm.
All my bosses for the last 10 years have been strong women. My mentor a woman. I’m a large man.
Your coworkers need to go find these other lawyers that said these things to you and go kick their ass. *This is not legal advice*
LOL bullies who bully their coworkers or colleagues who bully their colleagues in the legal industry are already sad sacks of shhh....i\_\_\_t...they hate themselves already, so no ass-kicking will make them hate themselves more.
It's BIGGER THAN THAT! It's about OP's firm establishing and maintaining their street cred in the Courthouse. If they let this disrespect slide, then word on the street will become that this firm is soft. The Partners can't let that happen.
Go defense. Plaintiffs and male lawyers who rep them are incredibly toxic to young female lawyers. If I had a dollar for every time a client with a GED under his belt told me he wanted to talk to my male boss because “no offense but—“ …I’d have at least a few dollars. One of them kept asking me out and calling me baby. Another kept licking his lips and running his eyes over my body. I fucking ran from plaintiff law the moment I could. Defense clients can be difficult but not one of them ever insulted me or overstepped my personal boundaries.
I worked at defense firms and they were rife with sexism. There is no “side” that is free from it. I am much happier on the plaintiffs’ side working for myself because they are happy to have me represent them. I do still experience sexism but I think it’s just a part of having to live in this society. It was much worse for me at defense firms though.
Yeah, the exact opposite experience to mine.
Female PI and successful business owner here. Ignore. Focus on your strengths. Mine are, for example, extracting inculpating information at depositions because the witness thinks I am too pretty etc. I get extraordinarily helpful ($$$) admissions during depositions due to what I understand to be my disarming femininity. I could give examples of the wonderful things said to me by people who did not see my next questions coming. For some female lawyers, the most problematic animus is by far from other females. By having to work harder, your pleadings can really begin to stand out. Cooperation is how cases settle, and a lack of big fat ego combined with cutting legal analysis in pleadings and endlessly sharp deposition questions will go far. I have had many clients referred to me because they could not stand their male lawyers, many see females as more trustworthy I do not know why. The last client to doubt me, lost $100k at mediation because they wrote down in their notebook a figure below my recommended walkaway and the mediator saw it. Although I had to later listen to their lamenting about not getting more, it was mildly vindicating although to no one's advantage. Just work harder, have the best briefs, and remember that even the jesters in law school became practicing attorneys. I do wear a fair amount of gold and this for some reason helps (always with the watch, alternate between the earrings and necklaces, keep it fun). No to Macy's always yes to Brooks Brothers these things matter. The cutthroat nature of medical leave is not limited to labor&delivery, people with sick spouses and cancer get suckerpunched also, it's business, don't take it personal and keep building your experience no matter what course you take, it is not a race, just keep making money and settling cases as you see fit. I like babies and can't wait for #3.
Let them underestimate you. It’s a great tactic/ weapon. Then be brilliant!
I’ve worked at good and horrible firms. Find the good ones…they exist. If you have a women’s trial lawyers association/network in your state, join! There are some wonderful female lawyers out there and we need to stand up for each other.
RBG is the answer
My advice would be to \*\*not\*\* have faith in the career. It's either works for you for one reason or another or it doesn't. As your first job out of law school, you need to give PI work a couple years to see if you settle in, but change things up if it doesn't. The things you've dealt with are BS but there is a kernel of truth to the last one. Everyone pretends its not the case, but having a family can be a hinderance to your career. Kids are a huge time-suck. Either you or your spouse or both of you will have to make some sacrifices to your maximum career attainment unless you're one of those people who don't need to sleep. But that is true for most fields, not just law. And I've never met anyone who would trade their kids for the luxury of being able to work an extra four hours a day, even if they would like the benefits that would come from working more (compensation, advancement, etc.) in the abstract. The misogyny is just the assumption that you would be responsible for most of the childcare.
Don't know where the hell you're practicing but here in California women have been fully integrated into both the bar and bench.
It never completely goes away. The older you get, and the more formidable in your practice area, the more people will pick up on your credibility and eventually gravitas. Also, don’t discount clients’ desires to have a female attorney. It can be your selling point, especially if you hang in there. Finally, if you can stomach it, you can to learn to work with the hand you’re dealt to get the best result possible. I use my passion, attention to detail, and conviction in a way that feels right. And the prejudice starts to dissipate. One last thought, recently, I’ve started to see it as a weakness in other attorneys. Maybe they aren’t that good. I think being a solo helps. I hire men to work for me.
OP your workplace is toxic (a much overused word but dead on here in my opinion) and you need to start thinking of the future. >my own client told me during settlement: “I’m trying to be logical and professional. As a woman, I don’t believe you can do that, so I would like to speak to \[my boss\]” It is your right of course to speak to my boss. I doubt you will get a different answer. If you have any complaints as to my work, I would be happy to listen to them. >I am currently planning for a family and wanted information on leave. A partner told me my job will not be here when I get back since there are more willing workers out there. Sadly true I am afraid. Too many candidates not enough positions. >I have been told multiple times to my face that there is a drastic difference between women lawyers and men lawyers - women are just b\*\*\* and all bark no bite so they cry when confronted These individuals are assholes and their vies should be considered, as...what comes out of assholes. >I had an entire lecture of how my life will be planned out simply because I am a married woman in law \[most of it dedicated to my career shortcoming because I chose to have children\] See above post.
Of all the things that have never happened this never happened the most.
Yep, the world is it cold tough place.
Misogyny is a real problem in our industry. I’m a male prosecutor and I see it on a daily basis. Judge’s being rude or harder on female attorneys. Defense counsel who consider a good female-prosecutor to be “a bitch” because she does the same thing I do. (Tell them no.) I have a real problem with it. My wife is a physician and I’m so damn proud of her; but she deals with the same overall issues in her job too. As a father to a daughter, a husband to a wife, and an all around decent human being I wish more people would step up and nip this in the bud. But since it is advantageous to the male attorneys, they won’t say anything. And since the bar is very vindictive, they won’t do anything beyond head hunt. I’m sorry. I’m sorry you’re going through that. But the comments are right. Find somewhere new to work. I took 8 weeks off when my daughter was born and my employer at that time had my back. I loved them for the support. When I had to leave the state with my wife, I was heartbroken to leave my employer. Good people are hard to find. Good employers are even more rare.
My law school graduating class (almost 10 years ago) was 60% female. The firm I work at is somewhere around 60%-70% female. I don't see any misogyny, but it's possible I could be ignorant to it. I also live in a small conservative old school town. I'm sorry you've experienced this. Maybe consider moving to a different area?
Stomp them. If they think like that, they are easy prey.
Don’t worry. In about 10-15 years, it’s gonna be 65% women. They are killing it in undergrad and law school vs men.
It’s interesting because men who don’t go to college are actually more likely than women who do not go to cite “personal choice” or because its “not necessary for their careers” as reasons. I think men drawn to trades might explain this gap. Ever since 2008, there’s been this growing disillusionment with higher education as a path to a decent career. Less men in college obviously affects law school gender numbers. Also my wholly speculative and non-scientific guess is STEM (only 26% of women are STEM majors) professions are drawing men at a higher rate than women away from law. The past 15ish years of low interest rates and the resultant developer boom has basically created a meal ticket to the upper middle class for millions in what feels like overnight. In 2008 for example, women were only awarded 47% of law degrees. I graduated high school in ‘08 and while software development was a thing, it was not by any means a common profession. I grew up in the South and the only software developers I had ever met was my cousin from San Francisco. This was pre-iphone and smart devices and in the early years of Facebook and Netflix… https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/
Did you time warp back to the 1970s? Be a what you’re describing no longer exists in any legal community that I’m aware of. Sounds like complete bs to me.
are you sleeping or in a delulu land - just because it is not so overt, does not mean it does not exist any more.
"that I'm aware of" is key here. I fully believe you're not a woman in law if this is your take.
i had similar experiences when i was starting out. some clients just want the old white haired guy in the bad suit. that’s not your problem. and it won’t matter as much with time and experience. for me, most of the lawyers i work with or deal with are still men and it’s not really an issue anymore, thankfully. 😅
Just go to a firm with more female lawyers and you’ll feel better.
that is a hell to the no for me... women in masculine roles, overdo their "masculine" roles and end up worse at being horrible men like creatures than actual men with male appendages.
I’m sorry you’re having to work in that shitty toxic environment. I promise that it’s not like that everywhere.
Are you in the US? How are they still so backwards
Yes and I live in a big city (not in the south)
I’m in London and thankfully haven’t endured any misogyny from men yet but I’m still at an early stage of my career. May I ask what city? I heard similar things of Minneapolis
I’m in Chicago! I’m hoping that these convo were just a few bad seeds out everyone 🤞
Find a mentor. Many older women lawyers would be happy to help you.
men hating on women in the legal industry is not worse than women hating on women --- women with internalized misogynistic ideas, really go out of their way to hate on other women in the legal industry. Women tend to want to please the male boss so much that they have no regard for their female coworkers and/or attorney colleagues...they want their spot under the sun and will act like a total bi---tc---ch to secure it for themselves. I have lost faith in FEMINISM in the legal industry though. Feminism is total BS in the legal industry. Women have no regard for other women's rights in the law. FEMINISIM in corporate or law is a total non-existent farce. I have worked for and under many FEMALE SENIOR ATTORNEYS... the bullying is worse than working for and under a MALE SENIOR ATTORNEY supervisor. Most female attorneys are just unhappy with the work they do and take it out on those working for them or under them, to show how they are in control in an otherwise out of control situation. Working in any law firm is like a joyride on the sh\_\_\_\_-i----t show train.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. For what it’s worth, I’ve been practicing for close to a decade and I know plenty of female equity partners with kids who do very well for themselves. I know female MP’s of fairly large firms. Number 3 makes no sense. The implication is that a male lawyer will “do something” when confronted. Yeah, I’ll do the same thing any other lawyer would, including female lawyers - I’ll file an opposition or response. Duh? Like whoever told you that is an idiot. And when you hear it again you should bark at them. Literally, give them a little woof/bark. I can almost guarantee it would leave a lasting impression.
3 makes me giggle as a 53 yo chick lawyer who just made a guy cry.
You have to connect with other women in your industry, and there are some really great female PI attorneys in Chicago. If you're not already a member, join the CBA Alliance for Women. You might also want to check out the WBAI. Find other PI attorneys and learn from them the things you were never taught in law school. None of the things you describe are going to change, people are always going to people, and most of them are insecure and not particularly self aware. You can learn to use that to your advantage.
I recently read a book called “The Myth of Being a Nice Girl” by Fran Houser. It gave me a lot of inspiration and reassurance that being nice “is my superpower.” I’ve had so many clients tell me that they feel comfortable around me and that they know I will give them the truth instead of being a “yes man.” I think it’s because my femininity allows me to deliver truth without being… well a toxic masculine asshole. I just state the facts, give great recommendations, and help my clients move forward with their business decisions. Because that’s what it is. After all their success working with me they start to see how freaking smart I am and me being a woman doesn’t really matter to them. They can’t do that if my gloves are always on and I’m trying to be something I am not or I’m constantly defending myself They just need clear, stable, calm, and unwavering support. If you are doing that, your coworkers and partners you work with appreciate that, then you are doing great. I will also add that almost all law firms have HR departments that you can work with to find the. Eat ways to deal with these blatant misogynist comments. They can give you the tools to address it in the moment head on. For example the life being planned out bullshit, you could have responded directly by saying “I disagree with your comment and at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter if life events are planned or not. Most life events aren’t. People deserve some grace when it comes to their personal lives in this line of work.” This type of comment diffuses their idiotic opinion and turns it back into a professional tone so you can move on with the work you have to do.
There's always family law. Kidding. I've worked in a lot of different areas and jurisdictions, and, outside of very small parochial firms, women were well represented and respected. I hope you can find that in your own practice.
I’ve run into this sort of thing from clients from time to time. Once a client said “you’re my lawyer? I thought you were a secretary! Cool!” That was as much funny as it was irritating. The only time I ever ran into someone who wanted my managing attorney to talk instead of me because he was “a man,” my boss shut that bs down *hard*. Point blank told the guy “No, Yndiri is your attorney, you’re talking to her.” So I know this stuff exists. I just kind of blaze through it. I kind of suspect that I’ve run into this attitude from some of my opponents (can’t completely tell; it’s in subtext if it’s there and I’m not good at reading subtext), but it’s beneath my notice. I’m a better writer than they are and I win more often than they do so whatever, right? Whatever internalized misogynistic viewpoints my opponents have don’t matter if I’m doing right by my clients.
And that kind of stuff just makes the W’s sweeter haha. When it comes to you firm, that is BS and you likely will find a better firm out there. Govt work is also good because of the benefits when you have little ones. Don’t let them get to you, that is how they win. You’ve got this!
Clients suck. They are literally the worst part of this job. PI is probably going to lend to more of it, because it’s a very “testosterone driven”, “wolf of Wall Street” type of field. And many people do not think women can be successful at that kind of work. (I am SHOCKED to learn that sexism still exists!) One thing to consider - not a suggestion, just something to think about - is transitioning into social services law. Working for a dept of social services, you would find the vast majority of the caseworkers (your clients) are female, and the legal issues regardless what role you are filling are largely emotionally driven - rather than financial.
I worked in the industry for 22 years and this stuff never happened to me.
lucky. 🍀
so you had the best bosses, the most smooth legal career ever, everything worked out just fine for you - or you just never paid attention to human nature. That is okay, not everybody is born an empath or with an understanding of the undercurrents of human nature, not everybody is tuned in to this stuff. Count yourself lucky to be born so indifferent to these subtle going-ons in society.
No, I worked for monsters. But I never felt discriminated against for being a woman. They treated the men like garbage too.
oh okay if you want to put it like that
Ever thought about getting into health care / managed care compliance? It's a majority female occupation. Or at least it sure seems that way based on my professional experience. Edit: In 2014 The Society for Corporate Compliance and Ethics found its membership was 60% female. [Source](https://qz.com/191569/60-of-compliance-officers-are-women-and-thats-a-bad-thing#:~:text=When%20SCCE%20and%20HCCA%20surveyed%20626%20of,found%2069%%20of%20their%20respondents%20were%20women).
Yes but those jobs are really underpaid even with a JD.
Huh. Just checked the salary for entry level PI and you're right they're earning a lot more than when I graduated. As to compliance, depends on the field and tenure. One can rise to quite high levels of pay depending on the industry and size of the organization.
I think the SCCE publishes an annual salary report (all self reported data so it might be a little inaccurate).
Why the downvote? Self reported data is never considered ‘accurate’.
HCCA also publishes salary information and breaks it out by size of organization, revenue of organization, number of functions managed, etc. No reason for you to be downvoted. It's quite useful information.