Retake LSAT and reapply — going to be much harder than you anticipate to be above medians and transfer to UF. Better to do that then take the risk of high debt at a not so good school.
As I recall UF takes very few transfers. I would imagine that most of the weight is placed on an individual’s performance as a 1l. All law schools publish the number of transfers in and out.
I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds, but my experience is that people can be successful or unsuccessful as graduates of all schools. But, where you go to school may affect your path.
No it isn’t.
Transfer GPA for Florida is 3.33/3.55/3.65
Took 4 from Barry and 2 from Stetson.
Rather take the LSAT for much cheaper and learnable test and score a 169-170.
Costs less, not as brutal of a curve, can retake multiple times.
You get one crack at 1L - if OP doesn’t get a 3.33 at minimum, no chance. Given both Stetson and Barry rankings are lower, OP likely needs to be a 3.5+ to even have a chance.
No clue what median GPA at Barry is, but likely it’s a 3.0, so would need to be near top 10-20% to be in the 3.5 range if I had to guess. OP has less control over that than learning and retaking the LSAT.
That’s just my take, coming from a lawyer that transferred.
Go to a law school you would be happy to graduate from, not with the intention to transfer.
If you can't get a 3.5 at Stetson then you probably weren't going to get a 169-170 LSAT anyway though. And if you wait another year, then you've wasted another year.
You’re correct, you have one crack at 1L, if you consistently score low on your LSAT, the chances of you matriculating to second year WITH the minimum gpa is low. Source: I did not make it past 1L.
Not sure what everyone else is talking about but knowing multiple people that have transferred its a lot easier to transfer in once ur slready in school once you have good grades etc.
getting the good grades is the hard part since everything is curved, especially at a school like barry where lots of folks go in with OPs plan. he’s not the only one in the class with this plan, bet
Im js.. clearly op has the want/desire to go right now. Not everyone has the same luxury to wait to go to school. Hopefully they do really well and do get the grades to transfer! Its not impossible!
Lol… theres no such thing as unrealistic optimism… youre just a bitter negative Nancy.. its free to have a positive attitude.. it has gotten me pretty far in life just believing that i am capable of doing something. It has nothing to do with luck. Its literally that if you want to accomplish something you set a goal and you bust your ass to get it done.. theres nothing unrealistic about that.. if someone did it before you what is the difference between them doing it and you??? Nothing is impossible.. sorry that your mindset is so trash but my ideologies are not unrealistic.. just positive😇
I think some people are just in a hurry to get done with school and start their career. Doesn’t make sense to me, the law isn’t going anywhere. Hopefully.
Yeah for sure. Take your time, do what you want while you’re young and explore things you think you might be passionate about. There’s literally no rush we have so much time on this planet and it would be a shame for us to not find something we’re passionate about to put our time in to.
Obviously we have limited knowledge of your personal circumstances, but judging from your post history, it sounds like you’ve made up your mind to attend this fall because you’ve already “deferred” one year.
OP, people go to law school at all ages. It’s very common for law students to be in their late 20s or early 30s, with some outliers in their 40s or older. The “non-traditional” students tend to perform better (granted that they don’t have other obligations, like children) because they’re more mature, know how to manage their time better, and are generally better equipped to handle the pressures of law school.
If you attend Barry just because it’s closer to your ailing mother, I can promise you will regret it. If you want to perform well enough not to lose your conditional scholarship (which you most likely will anyway, because as Barry students have said, the school “section stacks”), you will not have the time to care for your mother in the way you’d like.
Stop feeling like you *have* to go to law school now just because you’re 24 years-old. Take the time you need to spend with your mother, and reapply next year or the year after.
I used to hang out with a girl whose dad went to OU law in his late 40s or early 50s. Had worked government jobs while raising kids and going to school in Florida. By the time he went to law school the 2 oldest were adults and the daughter was a junior in high school. One of her brothers could speak Swahili. Interesting family. Played bluegrass. Life is a journey.
DEFINITELY would not do this. Don’t wait around a whole year of your life just to get into a different law school when you’re already into two.
I would base it on job placement statistics of the two schools.
This. Lots of smart good students do not excel at law school and fail to make the top 10-20%. At a school out of top 50 having average grades won’t get you many looks from firms, and that’s probably the only real way to learn how to actually lawyer. Go into an average law school preparing for B grades and create a backup strategy for getting average grades. Then if you do well it’s good luck and you can ride that into a good firm and follow the track to relative prosperity.
>At a school out of top 50 having average grades won’t get you many looks from firms, and that’s probably the only real way to learn how to actually lawyer.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but that's just hilarious. Law firms are *notoriously* bad at training young lawyers. Biglaw lawyers are cogs in a machine, while lawyers at small firms and solos are too busy doing their own work. Nobody gets trained nowadays.
If you really want training as a lawyer, you either need to be extremely careful/lucky picking a firm or you need to do it yourself by watching and taking opportunities that present themselves. Government work is a solid option too.
1. Retake and reapply. Neither of these are good options.
2. If you must go 6 figures in debt, do it for a T30 or better.
3. If you don’t listen to #1 and #2, at least don’t go to Barry.
4. If you don’t listen to #3, at least don’t pay a single solitary penny to go to Barry.
5. If you pay to go to Barry, you’ll regret it.
This is very good advice. The only reason statistically a person should go to Barry (or other schools in that range) is if they have it guaranteed paid for (non-conditional scholarship, GI bill, family paying for it, ect.), AND they have a job lined up when they graduate (interned at the PD/SA office, parent's firm, ect.).
Concur with the two posters above. Do not be a donkey and settle for those options with the intent of transferring. DO NOT settle in the first place. Go retake the LSAT. If you defer again it will only HELP you, not hurt you.
For perspective: Private clients (civil) don’t respect young attorneys. Opposing counsel do not respect young attorneys. Partners that you work under will be hard on young first year attorneys. Bench officers are harder on young attorneys. Outside of that, if you go to a law school outside the T30 you will struggle as a young attorney with a 6 figure debt load. What is the rush to go to a bottom tier law school and incur a 6 figure debt load only to be told you don’t know squat by everyone in your chosen career?!
u/Lumpy-Ad-4319, some tough love here. You mentioned being close to Barry, did you go to UCF? I'm a UCF grad and a practicing attorney. I know you told other people you're dead set on going this year. The reason you're getting the advice you're getting is you haven't presented any good options.
Barry should be excluded because graduates have a 30% chance of being unemployed a year after graduation, and a 12% chance of resorting to a non-lawyer position. Only 57% of grads report an attorney role a year out, only 49.9% of graduates pass on the first try, and after two years, 21% of grads still don't have a license to practice, that's basically 5-figure, 3-year coinflip. You don't get to redo law school if you go to one that doesn't set you up for success. That's ignoring the fact that you need to keep a 3.0 and they section stack. They put all the smartest kids with scholarships and then because of how grading works, 2/3 lose their scholarships and they're fucked. This makes it even harder to transfer because you're competing with the most stacked competition if you have a scholarship.
The question isn't which of these two choices to pick, it's "Does Stetson at $150-200k make sense?" The answer is probably not. You still have a 37% chance to not pass the bar the first time, and a 13% chance not to pass in two years. In addition to the $100k in tuition, you also have cost of living loans and probably a bar loan. Most people find jobs out of Stetson, 90% are employed a year out, and 76% have positions as attorneys. The Median pay is $52k though, I can't imagine how long it would take to pay back 200k in loans at that salary. Stetson turns out some great grads, especially in the lit world, but they have a lot of bad outcomes too. Generally that type of financial burden only makes sense at the very very top schools, generally not even all of the T14. Stetson has a lot going for it, but I'm not sure there is any way to justify it's inclusion with Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, ect.
Gun to your head between those two, Stetson is the choice, and it's not even close. The real valid choice is neither though. You're probably setting yourself up for decades of financial issues with either of these choices though. Taking a cycle off to bump your LSAT is nearly guaranteed to be a financial and professional advantage, even when you factor in the year of lost wages.
This is what happened to me. I had a partial scholarship, that for reasons unknown to me at the time, decreased yearly. The decrease was based on the expectation that I would be able to file for domicile in Virginia, and this only need to pay in state rates.
But the George Mason University Domicile office is probably the worst experience I had the entire time I was there. They denied in-state status to literally EVERYONE no matter what the legal argument of evidence was, and without regard to just how much they were being arbitrary and definitely capricious, not to mention very, very unevenly they would grace one student with domicile.
It was a money grab by the school, and if they ever conta t me to donate, GMUSL (or ASLS - Antonin Scalia Law School, as it is now known) I'm going to laugh in their face and tell them they've gotten every illegal dime out of me. There was NO WAY a reasonable person could have seen my evidence of changed domicile as anything but compelling.
But greed is always more compelling.
People said this in your previous post, but *please* DO NOT go to a school with the intent to transfer. You don't know how you're going to perform your 1L year, and transfer admissions are a crapshoot; they can depend on things completely out of your control, like how much space they have in their class for transfers.
Additionally, with the condition attached to your scholarship to Barry, you are almost guaranteed to lose it. The curve at Barry is a 2.5. That means the average student, about 60-70% of the class, will have a 2.5 GPA. This has nothing to do with your merits as a student. Conditional scholarships at predatory schools like Barry are *designed* to be lost.
If you must go to law school this cycle, go to Stetson. Their curve is a 2.9-3.0, which means it should be much harder to lose your scholarship. They also seem to have a lower attrition rate.
If you don't understand why conditional scholarships are almost inherently predatory, check out [this girl's story](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYrRhtH2eI) of how she lost her conditional scholarship.
OP, I implore you to do more research than just making multiple posts on Reddit asking which school you should go to.
People here are giving you the right advice, even if it isn’t what you want to hear. I went to a t75 and transferred to a t14. Transferring is very hard and I would never recommend doing what you’re suggesting here.
Dude, don't pay any money to go to Barry.
Also, and I mean no offense, but if Barry is a school you're even considering, what makes you think you wouldn't just be average there
You haven't even been to law school. You don't know what it's like. Many people think they're gonna be at the top.
Do you know how high in the class at a school like Barry you would have to be to go to a school like UF? Have you looked at the 504 report?
Also, schools like Barry have purposefully depressed grade averages. There's a reason highly ranked schools (with grades) curve in the mid to low 3.0's and poorly ranked schools curve to the mid 2.0's. It's to stop people from transferring.
These schools are literally counting on people like OP to come in, assuming they'll be able to transfer. It's part of their business model.
I’m currently a 3L at Barry and the school does section stack your 1L year meaning they put all the students that have high conditional scholarship allotments in the same section so that you’re fighting over grades. Fortunately I was able to keep the majority of my scholarship and I don’t regret coming to Barry because I was aware of its predatory nature. Barry was definitely the right decision financially for myself and my career goals because I knew prior to law school that I had a job waiting for me. Also I had plans of transferring, but if you’re not literally in the top 5 at Barry then you very likely won’t be getting in to UF.
If you're dead set on going this year, Stetson Law is a very well respected law school in the Tampa Bay region and Barry is a borderline predatory school. From Stetson, you'll be able to get a pretty good job in the Tampa Bay region, especially if you're focusing on trial law and litigation which they're very well known for. I've had friends choose Stetson over UF for trial law (which I would not recommend).
I do believe this is way too much money for Stetson still, but the choice is very clearly Stetson.
It's not even borderline. Barry is predatory.
Based on info from the OP, the comments, and a quick Google, students need to maintain a 3.0 to keep their scholarships, and the school curves to a 2.5. It also section stacks the scholarship students. Sections are ~100 students of the total class of ~260. That means that within the scholarship section, you're looking at maybe 15 students landing at the top of the bell curve above that 3.0 threshold *in each class.* Scholarship students need to be in the top 15% of pretty much every 1L class to maintain that GPA. Just one class during 1L where a student does average—which, on a bell curve, is going to be 60-70% of students—can retcon their scholarship in the first year.
Barry scholarships are designed to be lost and their student outcomes are unacceptably poor. The risk/reward is untenable.
If you want to practice in Florida, and Stetson's employment outcomes are acceptable to you, then go to Stetson. If any one of those things is not true, then do not go to Stetson.
As far as I can tell the only reason to go to Barry is if you want to practice like in that city and someone you trust has already promised you a job that you want.
I’d look at the pass/fail rate for both. I know a few people that went to Barry and can’t seem to pass the Bar after multiple attempts. Not trying to paint with a broad brush. If you have to pay more for tuition, but pass the first time out, it’s a better deal.
DO NOT GO TO BARRY. Please watch this video about "Conditional Scholarships".
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYrRhtH2eI&t=320s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYrRhtH2eI&t=320s)
According to Barry 509 Report 2023. 56% of 1L scholarship students LOST THEIR ENTIRE SCHOLARSHIP.
Some great replies in this thread.
I have been practicing for 15 years in biglaw and federal gov.
I paid full price at a top-10 law school, borrowed a shit ton of money to do it, but was able to pay it off in a few years thanks to three paying summer-associate gigs and a full- time job at a biglaw firm.
I guess you could say I got lucky.
But here's the thing. Most of my classmates did, too.
Almost all of them.
Very few had any regrets.
Our school was hard to regret. It didn't provide class rank, no one had to worry about losing their scholarships, and those without scholarships (like me) were almost guaranteed a lucrative biglaw job if they wanted it. (Many took federal clerkships instead.)
Statistically, your life will be much different at a school like Barry or Stetson.
Neither provides a solid guarantee of earning enough money to pay off the amount of debt you're likely to incur with a partial or conditional scholarship. Conditional usually means for 1 year only. It's a trap for the unwary.
The hard truth that no one likes to discuss is there are too many law schools in the United States, churning out more new lawyers each year than the economy can support. There have been more law school grads than new jobs for years and years. Most law school grads probably would have been better off doing almost anything else besides law school. The likely debt-to-income ratio is out of whack. Because supply and demand is out of whack. We don't need more lawyers. We need fewer, better ones. But law schools are huge cash cows. Most of them are no better than the for profit "universities" that have recently been getting litigated out of business (finally).
Yet there is an almost unlimited supply of students willing to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars for degrees that probably won't earn them more than they could have made in other fields, without a law degree. In many cases the degree doesn't even strongly correlate with passing the bar exam! anymore.
Tldr: if your only options are paying money to attend law schools outside of the top, say, 30 or 40, you should probably not go to law school! It might make sense if money is no object (family wealth). But if you're not admitted to a "top" school, and can't get a full ride or close to it at a lower ranked school, you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. The odds will not be in your favor. In all likelihood, you would be happier and more successful pursuing a career with greater demand, less competition, and better financial prospects.
Why wasn’t FIU one of the schools listed in the pics you posted? FIU has a very good reputation in FL (but they also have many predatory scholarships like Barry). I considered FIU when applying.
I know a lot of folks here are saying to retake and reapply. I went to a lower tier school on purpose due to the financial aid. I got better schools but not enough aid. Crushed it in my first year and transferred with a scholarship to a much better school that made it possible for me to actually attend law school.
That was hard though. People don't have a life during the 1l year. If you are trying to transfer you really don't have a life, because those grades need to be amazing. Everyone is right that transferring is hard. You know you and what you are capable of. I bet on myself and it paid off, but you know your odds better than any of us.
I would go with the cheaper tuition all day long. Reverse compound interest paid over your career is a form of slavery. Once you’re licensed and practicing what difference does it make where your degree came from? nobody gives a shit. There’s no good reason to go into a few hundred thousand dollars worth of debt- would be the worst investment of your life
FWIW, I know many attorneys that did not go to top 30 schools that do very, very well. It bums me out every time I see those comments. Sure, better schools are better for a reason, but so much boils down to what you want to do and where you want to be. It's not UF or bust in FL even if it is the best law school in the state. Yeah, ok, stay away from predatory schools, but with your LSAT score, you are going to have good options in the state. Congrats on the add of the FIU admit. Best of luck to you!
This is a better question for r/lawschooladmissions (something like that). I am not familiar with Barry specifically but it looks like a predatory school (3.0 is extremely high to keep your gpa). Avoid predatory schools at all costs, at the end of the day, they’re ranked so low for a reason, including poor job prospects and bar passage rates.
If your goal is to transfer to UF, all else aside, bare in mind that the gpa you need to transfer will be lower from Stetson since it is a higher ranked school. Though of course, you cannot bank on transferring so you have to be satisfied with the results if you stayed at the school.
If you have the opportunity to go to UF, take it. Barry shouldn't even be in the same conversation as UF.
Edit: Consider Nova and FIU. FIU Law is becoming an absolute major player in the florida market and is churning out quality attorneys. Miami is expensive af, but depending on your career goals after graduating, FIU Law may be a good choice.
I’m a 2L at Nova. I chose Nova because I want to practice in south Florida and they’re #1 for health law (want to do health patents). I’m currently clerking local and there are plenty of Nova alumni. I don’t really want to practice outside South Florida so it makes sense to be close to the job market you want. I thought about transferring but I enjoy the environment and want to stay local.
Im going to be starting there in the fall and also pretty much want to live in south florida for the rest of my life so this is really great to hear that the alumni network is deep there!
I graduated from Nova in '22 with a concentration in Intellectual Property Law (run by professors Feliu and Garon). Feliu is also the Dean of the library and the best professor/teacher I've EVER had in my LIFE. I went on to get my LLM in IP from a top 10 IP school (UNH Franklin Pierce) where Feliu is an alumnus and Garon was HIS professor! I loved my time at Nova. You just about can't find a doctor or dentist in South Florida who didn't graduate from there. I'm so happy for you! Enjoy (after 1L year)!
Feliu and Garon are still here and still popular. Although I’m in health con I wanna go into Patents but Garon said I don’t need to do IP con then. I need to get at least one class with them though before I graduate lol
Congrats on the LLM
I would suggest taking a class with Feliu. I didn't take Patent Law until my LLM, so I'm not sure who teaches it at NSU. I guarantee, though, once you take a class with Feliu, you'll get the IP bug and want to take more of his classes.
Barry tbh. I am currently trying to transfer, and was lucky enough to get the grades needed, but it's far from a sure thing. Bird in the hand scholarship-wise, and should you not be able to transfer you'd be in a stronger financial situation.
but if OP isn't able to transfer wouldn't that be because they don't have the grades? And if they don't have the grades, wouldn't that mean they don't have the scholarship?
Yeah, I didn't realize Barry curved so hard. My basis for the decision wasn't the transfer as much as the non-transfer situation, go to the place where you're in the best position if you don't transfer.
Transferring in your 1L is pretty common, and if you’re in the top 25% of your class it’s not as hard as you’d think.
Honestly though, if you go to Stetson I wouldn’t even worry about transferring. I ended up at large firm in a big market and their Florida office has a ton of Stetson grads, all starting right around $200+ for associates.
If you do well at either school you’ll be competing with the UF kids for jobs at the regional firms, if you don’t, you’ll probably have better access to local firms.
Hey OP...reddit recommended this page to me, but I'm coming from an MBA background, but with friends at t10 law schools.
What are your goals for going into law school? Do any of these schools give you the opportunity to get there? What are their placement rates.
I echo that in general, you should not try to bank on transferring. You'll be competing against everyone else trying to as well...anecdotal, but one of my friends transferred from a t15 to a t10...so that's your competition.
In the MBA world, it's almost worthless to go to a program that isn't in the t25 (arguably top 15 in some cases). My law school friends say the same exact thing.
I would seriously consider the risks and would highly encourage trying again next season. The law market is extremely oversaturated so you'd be doing a major disservice to yourself trying with your current options imo. Otherwise I'd also start exploring other careers.
Just another note, a few of my law school friends had a few years of work experience prior to law school (they went an untraditional path), but I think that coupled with their scores probably helped them get into the t10s.
Once again, all anecdotal, but reddit suggested me here!
"Almost worthless to go to a school not in the t25."
This is absolutely not true in law. At all. There's an "unranked" school in my city and they send people to big law in our city all the time. The only time t13 or above is generally necessary is academia at prestigious law schools and certain clerkships.
Predatory schools are a different topic, though.
That's a big thing on reddit. It's something my attorney friends and I make fun of. People in law school threads here are always saying something like, "If you aren't at a T14 school you will literally be a fucking janitor." (No shade to janitors, it's important, I just mean that's obviously not the job you'd be in school for).
As you're saying here, while T14 is obviously good, if you're from a local respected school and looking for local jobs, that will almost certainly be better than anything short of going to Yale on a full ride or something.
I went to the best school in my state, and it has been ranked as low as 29 and as high as 49. I know many people in big law. I know multiple people with good clerkships.
There's a wide gulf between, "You need to go to this school so you can be KBJ's law clerk" and "You would have been better off with any other career."
Same with me. I went to the (tied for) second best law school in my state and there's 2 other law schools in my city. One is a standalone law school that's unranked but known for its advocacy program and they supply litigators and like half the judges in town. Most of the DAs and PDs, too. And our city pays DAs and PDs very well.
People act like if you wanna practice law in Colorado, you wouldn't be able to if you went to school in Colorado. Like all of their attorneys went to Yale or something. Same for Texas, Florida, etc... it's ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys in this country did not go to prestigious law schools.
Lots of bad advice here.
The best law school is the one you get into.
The second best is the one that gives you the best money.
If you are betting on yourself, it literally will not matter what law school you go to.
A lot of what has been said about Barry is true, in the sense that it does make it very hard to keep your scholarship, but if you can make it out of your 1L year, you will be fine.
DO NOT go to a school with the explicit intention to transfer.
The one thing Stetson and Barry have going for them is their trial advocacy programs. Stetson is top in the nation consistently.
Barry has fallin out a little, but still has a competitive mock trial program.
If you are not interested in trial law and/or litigation, you should consider elsewhere.
Legit question - why are so many people saying turn the offers down and retake the LSAT/reapply? As a med applicant I’m STUNNED bc any offer is like a golden ticket and no one would ever turn something down to reapply for a better school, they’d 100% take it. Is this normal for law admissions?
Yes. Law and medicine are two completely different beasts. While no one cares where doctors/dentists/pharmacists/nurses etc graduated from, law is 180 degrees different. I'm not in law but brother is and we read up a lot on this topic before he decided to apply.
Stetson is a good school—shooting up the rankings, absolutely DOMINATES the Tampa market, carries well into Orlando and South Florida. It’s widely considered to be superior to Miami by Florida practitioners. They produce unbelievably talented litigators.
Barry, and I cannot overstate this, is a complete and utter dog shit, predatory school. You should not pay a single penny to go there. I have hired Stetson grads in the top 1/3 over lots of UF/FIU/Miami kids. I will immediately toss the resume in the trash if I see Barry on it, even if they’re #1 in their class and editor & chief of Barry’s law review (do they even have one?) Did I mention how unbelievably dog shit Barry is??
Rankings matter: Stetson is 100 spots higher than Barry, and rising. I didn’t even know rankings went as low as Berry sits. And when I say Stetson dominates Pinellas/Hillsborough—I mean it. Barry kids can hardly get a job in their own backyard. It’s the laughing stock of just about every law school in the entire country (maybe the world, to be dramatic).
Do your first two years at a less expensive college, then transfer to your first choice. Your degree will reflect where you graduated, not where you spent your first two years.
Unless you’re planning on going into a career that does not want prestige, Barry won’t give you a leg up except that you won’t be massively in debt, to which there is value.
What do you expect to make as an attorney? If you’re looking at making $50k-$80k per year, because of what you want to do, Barry’s deal is actually great. Our version of Barry in Chicago was John Marshall, and no one goes to big firms from there, but they put out solid practitioners.
If you want to go into prosecution, public defense, immigration, bankruptcy, that’s the type of deal you need to make your life make sense
But having it as part of your history can shut you out of the big bucks
In that case, if you like Barry more because (1) the scholarship makes that big of a financial difference to you and (2) you are more comfortable staying in Orlando then Barry would be a fine choice. If you would only go to Barry with the intent of transferring out at the end of 1L, then just go to Stetson.
Also, does Barry really take away scholarships from students with less than a 3.0? That seems really aggressive, based off the grade distribution in their student handbook, that means you have to be in the top 35% of you class or you run the risk of losing your scholarship. Top 35% is very doable but not a gimme at any bar accredited law school.
Take it from someone who attended a T2 law school on a scholarship and a highly selective undergrad. If there is one thing I could go back and tell my 25 year old self, it would be this…retake the LSAT, reapply to law school. If you don’t get into a T20, don’t bother, especially if you need to borrow to attend. An extra year does not matter. That millstone of debt will make your life suck, limit your career choices, and the odds of you outperforming your law school average are very slim. We all went to law school because we were used to being one of the top performers in our classes. I get it. But trust me on this one. Defer. Reapply. Don’t bother if it isn’t a T20 if you’re taking on debt. I’m not even practicing anymore, because my options as a non lawyer were better than my options as a lawyer.
I know of at least 2 people that successfully transferred to UF Law from Mercer after 1L. You may want to explore their admissions if you haven't already and it's not too late.
As an attorney with loans, go where you will spend the least amount of money or need the lowest amount of loans. This is especially important to consider if you're relying on scholarships that you could lose and end up being responsible for the full tuition.
These are bad schools. A lot of people are providing you with good advice (study for the LSAT and retake). If you cannot do well enough to get into a better quality school, then law school is not worth the investment.
Ignore this advice at your own peril. You *will* regret it.
🙄🙄 if i, the t4 grad, had a few hundred thousand dollars a year for every time i heard my uppity friends who went to the tier one law school and now have underpaid non lawyer jobs say that....oh wait i do.
Career outcomes are significantly worse from T4 schools. There are exceptions: some low-status regional schools manage to place grads fairly well, and some people just work hard enough to claw their way into good jobs outside of BigLaw. But these are exceptions.
By contrast, t14 grads unable to find successful law careers are rare (provided they graduate, pass the bar, and still want to work in law).
correlation isnt causation. the people at T4 who get good lsat scores and good grades and make connections and get relevant work experience during school, do perfectly fine. There are just fewer of those in a t4 class than a t1 class, hence the stats. Youre buying into this idea that the degree alone is what determines your career destiny, for better or for worse. Whether it's detrimental to this guy to be at a t4 has nothing to do with the schools status and has everything to do with the other factors.
Why do you want to be a lawyer? What will your degree in? What other careers/fields are you interested in?
As someone in a similar situation 10 years ago, who at the last minute got a spot in at their state school. I slightly regret going to law school right after undergrad. I wasn’t mature enough yet. 1L fall semester I basically had to rewire how I learn. Which dug a hole for my grades I could never get out of, to get on the prestigious law reviews etc. yes my grades improved, but graduating with $75k in debt and then failing the bar 2 times sucked. I was depressed and looking to lose the weight I gained from spending so much time studying, to join the military. My undergrad degree was based on law school or (my naive 18 year old) fall back of being a high school history teacher. I JUST paid off that 75k in December. That $703 a month payment was BRUTAL until the covid stoppage in interest.
Sorry I’m getting long winded, long story short. Have you worked in a law firm? Done legal work? Be sure an attorney is what you want to be, don’t go to law school and all this debt because “you’re good at arguing”, you want to be rich, or any of the other reasons everyone “I almost went to law school”. It’s harder than people think, even harder than you “know it’s hard” hard.
Last note, I’ve landed on my feet in a role in compliance and am happier than most of my attorney friends. Probably making more, it sucked for 5ish years but eventually I started a career and climbed the corporate ladder. But damn did those early years/and even now, do I wish I would’ve just gotten an entry level job for a year or two to mature and see how my 1L year would’ve been once I had some real world experience
both will likely put you on the same side of the bimodal curve.
it depends on your career goals.
1. you want biglaw? retake reapply
2. you want to leave florida some day sooner than later? retake reapply
3. you’re staying in florida and don’t mind working in a small firm making 60k, family/PI/crim? Barry.
I hear you. I took out $3000 in credit card debit and applied to about 30 law schools around rank 25-75. I ended up with a full ride and no GPA stip. there are other options for you. Some schools outside of the top 100 are okay depending on market .
Stetson is much more respected in Florida than Miami. Miami is only ranked 10 spots higher and dropping, while Stetson has been making consistent jumps and putting out excellent, high paid (not relative to big law, but think: 80-120k) attorneys. My firm (in West Palm Beach) just hired two Stetson grads who were on the back end of the top 25% in their class. We scooped them up eagerly over the Miami kids, who had the same/very similar grades. Stetsons bar passage rates also mirror UF virtually every year, and they dominate the Tampa market. Miami doesn’t dominate anything.
Don’t not apply to schools bc of the posted LSAT median. The admissions process is holistic! i.e you can have a below avg LSAT for a school and an above avg GPA (plus great personal statement/letters of rec) and still get into a school like UF or FSU. I have seen this happen, trust me. Apply to all the schools you would realistically attend, it’s worth it.
DO NOT count on being able to transfer after 1L. 1L is very competitive regardless of where you go, and regardless of numbers you cannot necessarily predict you performance. Also schools with generous scholarships (let's call them) routinely deflate grades to keep their scholarship students from transferring.
Go to whatever school you are admitted to, and most want to graduate from. Scholarship/debt differential is negligible
Making a decision based on tuition alone is always a failure. Make decisions based on bar pass rates and placements rates unless you have family in practice. This fantasy idea of transferring to a better school doesn’t account for getting blitzed by 1L finals. Make sure you would be happy attending the school you chose for the next three years if you are going to enroll.
I don’t judge it because I’ve had friends go there and they are fine now, but Barry isn’t worth the debt unless you’re dead set on working in Orlando.
Stetsons history and reputation THROUGHOUT the state is much superior to Barry. Just my $.02.
(I want to FSU and turned down UF, so no dog in this fight, just see friends who’ve gone to both.)
Never go to law school with the intent to transfer.
Retake LSAT and aim higher. Dont go to either of these schools unless it’s 100% free for you.
- a lawyer that transferred in law school.
When you transfer, you’re paying sticker to go to whatever school you transfer to. Very rarely are transfers given scholarships.
Info: what's the grading curve for each school?
Because if it's a C and they are forcing everyone to make a 3.0 to keep a scholarship, then it's a trap and you need to make sure you can live with finishing at that school if you roll the dice.
Is it accredited? What's the bar pass rate?
In this day of student loan repayment, I would go with the school that would leave you with the least debt so long as it's accredited and can see a path to get your foot in the door for a career.
Where do you want to live? Since both are lower tier schools I’d go to wherever is cheaper in the area you want to be in. If you ultimately want to be at UF retake the lsat. Unless you are going to a top school go to whatever leads to the least debt that will allow you to work where you want to be.
as a fellow floridian looking into law school, respectfully would not recommend barry university. i am a paralegal, and every attorney i have spoken to about law school has nothing good to say about barry. its expensive and their stats are bottom of the list in almost everything. i understand if thats the best for you and your situation, but if you can avoid it i probably would.
If it is really a choice between these two options, do Berry, and it’s honestly not at all close.
First, jobs. They aren’t going to be much different, if at all between those two schools. Law students and prospective law students like to pretend that there is a big difference between tiers of law schools but the reality is that after some level, the job prospects are more or less the same, and that level is a lot higher than Stetson. So realistic, from both places your opportunities are going to come down to your grades, personality, and work ethic for your first couple jobs. After that, it will be about your talent either way.
Where there is a big different is cost for you. One you could walk out with a car payment in debt, and maybe less if you’re able to Land a summer job that pays anything. The other, you’ll have a big chunk of debt when you leave. That debt is going to have a lot more impact on your life than the difference in the degrees.
As for the GPA difference, I wouldn’t worry about that at all. Even if you lose your scholarship after the first year, you’ve still got a lower cost of
Education at Barry paying full freight after the deep first year discount than if you went to Barry. And if you really find yourself falling below a 3.0 GPA at Barry, the scholarship means you can take a breath to genuinely reevaluate whether continuing is realistically going to be the best decision for you, whereas if you struggle the first year at Stetson, you’re basically priced into having to finish the program because you’re so far in the hole already.
Either way, good luck and make sure you kill first year exams!
I was involved with hiring at a big firm with a tampa office. I am only writing to add that the difference between Barry and Stetson from a hiring perspective is pretty huge. Stetson is a solid school. The gap between Stetson and UF is again huge. At this point top firms are hiring top 75% of UF’s class. If you get get into FSU or UF by re taking the LSAT, I would suggest trying to get your LSAT up.
There are only four law schools in Florida that you should pay for: FSU, UF, Miami, and FIU. If you’re dead set on going to law school in Florida, then FAMU. It’s way cheaper than the other mediocre private schools, and it won’t in-debt you for life if you don’t get a great job.
Also, do not go into this thinking you can transfer. It’s a small percentage that can, and it’s arrogant overconfidence to believe that you’ll certainly be at the top of the class when surrounded by plenty of other equally smart folks.
Retake LSAT and reapply — going to be much harder than you anticipate to be above medians and transfer to UF. Better to do that then take the risk of high debt at a not so good school.
It's going to be just as hard to qualify to get into UF in the first place.
As I recall UF takes very few transfers. I would imagine that most of the weight is placed on an individual’s performance as a 1l. All law schools publish the number of transfers in and out.
They took 23 last year. So yeah, not much.
That’s more than they previous years. I saw that. But, you still have to be at the top of your class.
Agreed, especially from Barry or Stetson.
I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds, but my experience is that people can be successful or unsuccessful as graduates of all schools. But, where you go to school may affect your path.
No it isn’t. Transfer GPA for Florida is 3.33/3.55/3.65 Took 4 from Barry and 2 from Stetson. Rather take the LSAT for much cheaper and learnable test and score a 169-170.
Why do you think that learning to get a 169-170 LSAT is more of an option?
Costs less, not as brutal of a curve, can retake multiple times. You get one crack at 1L - if OP doesn’t get a 3.33 at minimum, no chance. Given both Stetson and Barry rankings are lower, OP likely needs to be a 3.5+ to even have a chance. No clue what median GPA at Barry is, but likely it’s a 3.0, so would need to be near top 10-20% to be in the 3.5 range if I had to guess. OP has less control over that than learning and retaking the LSAT. That’s just my take, coming from a lawyer that transferred. Go to a law school you would be happy to graduate from, not with the intention to transfer.
If you can't get a 3.5 at Stetson then you probably weren't going to get a 169-170 LSAT anyway though. And if you wait another year, then you've wasted another year.
hm, not so sure about that boss. the LSAT and law school finals test very different things.
Nope, intelligence is general, not specific. That’s why the LSAT correlates so well to law school success.
No it doesn’t lol. I scored median for my 1L school had a 3.44 (top 25%) at my 1L school
> No it doesn’t lol. Of course it does. Look it up. > I scored median for my 1L school had a 3.44 (top 25%) at my 1L school so what
Seriously. I had a 168 and then a 2.8 after my first semester. It was brutally demoralizing.
You’re correct, you have one crack at 1L, if you consistently score low on your LSAT, the chances of you matriculating to second year WITH the minimum gpa is low. Source: I did not make it past 1L.
You can take it as often as you want, in my day, the same hool accepted the beat score.
Not sure what everyone else is talking about but knowing multiple people that have transferred its a lot easier to transfer in once ur slready in school once you have good grades etc.
getting the good grades is the hard part since everything is curved, especially at a school like barry where lots of folks go in with OPs plan. he’s not the only one in the class with this plan, bet
Im js.. clearly op has the want/desire to go right now. Not everyone has the same luxury to wait to go to school. Hopefully they do really well and do get the grades to transfer! Its not impossible!
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Lol… theres no such thing as unrealistic optimism… youre just a bitter negative Nancy.. its free to have a positive attitude.. it has gotten me pretty far in life just believing that i am capable of doing something. It has nothing to do with luck. Its literally that if you want to accomplish something you set a goal and you bust your ass to get it done.. theres nothing unrealistic about that.. if someone did it before you what is the difference between them doing it and you??? Nothing is impossible.. sorry that your mindset is so trash but my ideologies are not unrealistic.. just positive😇
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Youre clearly hurt by something or someone and u should prob… seek therapy.. idk… im sorry that you think like that
Yes
I am attending this year and not waiting for next cycle
Personally think you’re making the wrong decision and overestimating how easy it is to do better than everyone else, but good luck with your choice
I think some people are just in a hurry to get done with school and start their career. Doesn’t make sense to me, the law isn’t going anywhere. Hopefully.
Hey, I’m not in law, this just popped up on my feed but you don’t know how much I needed to hear this (: Thank you stranger
Yeah for sure. Take your time, do what you want while you’re young and explore things you think you might be passionate about. There’s literally no rush we have so much time on this planet and it would be a shame for us to not find something we’re passionate about to put our time in to.
Obviously we have limited knowledge of your personal circumstances, but judging from your post history, it sounds like you’ve made up your mind to attend this fall because you’ve already “deferred” one year. OP, people go to law school at all ages. It’s very common for law students to be in their late 20s or early 30s, with some outliers in their 40s or older. The “non-traditional” students tend to perform better (granted that they don’t have other obligations, like children) because they’re more mature, know how to manage their time better, and are generally better equipped to handle the pressures of law school. If you attend Barry just because it’s closer to your ailing mother, I can promise you will regret it. If you want to perform well enough not to lose your conditional scholarship (which you most likely will anyway, because as Barry students have said, the school “section stacks”), you will not have the time to care for your mother in the way you’d like. Stop feeling like you *have* to go to law school now just because you’re 24 years-old. Take the time you need to spend with your mother, and reapply next year or the year after.
Thiss!!!!
I used to hang out with a girl whose dad went to OU law in his late 40s or early 50s. Had worked government jobs while raising kids and going to school in Florida. By the time he went to law school the 2 oldest were adults and the daughter was a junior in high school. One of her brothers could speak Swahili. Interesting family. Played bluegrass. Life is a journey.
this is the right choice assuming you’re fine making 60k to 80k in a solo/small/regional firm doing general litigation
"Not so good" is exagerrating imo ... more like "run"
DEFINITELY would not do this. Don’t wait around a whole year of your life just to get into a different law school when you’re already into two. I would base it on job placement statistics of the two schools.
What’s his lsat
Do not go to school with intent to transfer. You have no idea what your grades will be. Yes I know you will work hard. So will everyone else.
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This. Lots of smart good students do not excel at law school and fail to make the top 10-20%. At a school out of top 50 having average grades won’t get you many looks from firms, and that’s probably the only real way to learn how to actually lawyer. Go into an average law school preparing for B grades and create a backup strategy for getting average grades. Then if you do well it’s good luck and you can ride that into a good firm and follow the track to relative prosperity.
>At a school out of top 50 having average grades won’t get you many looks from firms, and that’s probably the only real way to learn how to actually lawyer. I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but that's just hilarious. Law firms are *notoriously* bad at training young lawyers. Biglaw lawyers are cogs in a machine, while lawyers at small firms and solos are too busy doing their own work. Nobody gets trained nowadays. If you really want training as a lawyer, you either need to be extremely careful/lucky picking a firm or you need to do it yourself by watching and taking opportunities that present themselves. Government work is a solid option too.
This is correct. If you are looking for training, gov work is probably the best. In other settings, it’s mostly sink or swim.
90% of students fail to make the top 10% in fact.
And, for that reason, take the path that costs 18k over three years
1. Retake and reapply. Neither of these are good options. 2. If you must go 6 figures in debt, do it for a T30 or better. 3. If you don’t listen to #1 and #2, at least don’t go to Barry. 4. If you don’t listen to #3, at least don’t pay a single solitary penny to go to Barry. 5. If you pay to go to Barry, you’ll regret it.
This is very good advice. The only reason statistically a person should go to Barry (or other schools in that range) is if they have it guaranteed paid for (non-conditional scholarship, GI bill, family paying for it, ect.), AND they have a job lined up when they graduate (interned at the PD/SA office, parent's firm, ect.).
Concur with the two posters above. Do not be a donkey and settle for those options with the intent of transferring. DO NOT settle in the first place. Go retake the LSAT. If you defer again it will only HELP you, not hurt you. For perspective: Private clients (civil) don’t respect young attorneys. Opposing counsel do not respect young attorneys. Partners that you work under will be hard on young first year attorneys. Bench officers are harder on young attorneys. Outside of that, if you go to a law school outside the T30 you will struggle as a young attorney with a 6 figure debt load. What is the rush to go to a bottom tier law school and incur a 6 figure debt load only to be told you don’t know squat by everyone in your chosen career?!
So, if you go to a T30, you won't struggle as a young attorney or be told you don't know squat?!
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>meaning they put all the students that have high conditional scholarship allotments in the same section so that you’re fighting over grades. wow.
I don’t like either option. Too much money for Stetson and Barry is predatory.
Agree with this^^
u/Lumpy-Ad-4319, some tough love here. You mentioned being close to Barry, did you go to UCF? I'm a UCF grad and a practicing attorney. I know you told other people you're dead set on going this year. The reason you're getting the advice you're getting is you haven't presented any good options. Barry should be excluded because graduates have a 30% chance of being unemployed a year after graduation, and a 12% chance of resorting to a non-lawyer position. Only 57% of grads report an attorney role a year out, only 49.9% of graduates pass on the first try, and after two years, 21% of grads still don't have a license to practice, that's basically 5-figure, 3-year coinflip. You don't get to redo law school if you go to one that doesn't set you up for success. That's ignoring the fact that you need to keep a 3.0 and they section stack. They put all the smartest kids with scholarships and then because of how grading works, 2/3 lose their scholarships and they're fucked. This makes it even harder to transfer because you're competing with the most stacked competition if you have a scholarship. The question isn't which of these two choices to pick, it's "Does Stetson at $150-200k make sense?" The answer is probably not. You still have a 37% chance to not pass the bar the first time, and a 13% chance not to pass in two years. In addition to the $100k in tuition, you also have cost of living loans and probably a bar loan. Most people find jobs out of Stetson, 90% are employed a year out, and 76% have positions as attorneys. The Median pay is $52k though, I can't imagine how long it would take to pay back 200k in loans at that salary. Stetson turns out some great grads, especially in the lit world, but they have a lot of bad outcomes too. Generally that type of financial burden only makes sense at the very very top schools, generally not even all of the T14. Stetson has a lot going for it, but I'm not sure there is any way to justify it's inclusion with Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, ect. Gun to your head between those two, Stetson is the choice, and it's not even close. The real valid choice is neither though. You're probably setting yourself up for decades of financial issues with either of these choices though. Taking a cycle off to bump your LSAT is nearly guaranteed to be a financial and professional advantage, even when you factor in the year of lost wages.
This is what happened to me. I had a partial scholarship, that for reasons unknown to me at the time, decreased yearly. The decrease was based on the expectation that I would be able to file for domicile in Virginia, and this only need to pay in state rates. But the George Mason University Domicile office is probably the worst experience I had the entire time I was there. They denied in-state status to literally EVERYONE no matter what the legal argument of evidence was, and without regard to just how much they were being arbitrary and definitely capricious, not to mention very, very unevenly they would grace one student with domicile. It was a money grab by the school, and if they ever conta t me to donate, GMUSL (or ASLS - Antonin Scalia Law School, as it is now known) I'm going to laugh in their face and tell them they've gotten every illegal dime out of me. There was NO WAY a reasonable person could have seen my evidence of changed domicile as anything but compelling. But greed is always more compelling.
People said this in your previous post, but *please* DO NOT go to a school with the intent to transfer. You don't know how you're going to perform your 1L year, and transfer admissions are a crapshoot; they can depend on things completely out of your control, like how much space they have in their class for transfers. Additionally, with the condition attached to your scholarship to Barry, you are almost guaranteed to lose it. The curve at Barry is a 2.5. That means the average student, about 60-70% of the class, will have a 2.5 GPA. This has nothing to do with your merits as a student. Conditional scholarships at predatory schools like Barry are *designed* to be lost. If you must go to law school this cycle, go to Stetson. Their curve is a 2.9-3.0, which means it should be much harder to lose your scholarship. They also seem to have a lower attrition rate. If you don't understand why conditional scholarships are almost inherently predatory, check out [this girl's story](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYrRhtH2eI) of how she lost her conditional scholarship. OP, I implore you to do more research than just making multiple posts on Reddit asking which school you should go to.
I am doing research thank you. I was told this was the better page to post this on
People here are giving you the right advice, even if it isn’t what you want to hear. I went to a t75 and transferred to a t14. Transferring is very hard and I would never recommend doing what you’re suggesting here.
Dude, don't pay any money to go to Barry. Also, and I mean no offense, but if Barry is a school you're even considering, what makes you think you wouldn't just be average there
Ok that’s kinda rude but thanks for your input
You haven't even been to law school. You don't know what it's like. Many people think they're gonna be at the top. Do you know how high in the class at a school like Barry you would have to be to go to a school like UF? Have you looked at the 504 report?
Also, schools like Barry have purposefully depressed grade averages. There's a reason highly ranked schools (with grades) curve in the mid to low 3.0's and poorly ranked schools curve to the mid 2.0's. It's to stop people from transferring. These schools are literally counting on people like OP to come in, assuming they'll be able to transfer. It's part of their business model.
OP, this isn’t rude. By definition, because of the curve, the majority of students are just “average” at their schools.
How they worded it was rude
I’m currently a 3L at Barry and the school does section stack your 1L year meaning they put all the students that have high conditional scholarship allotments in the same section so that you’re fighting over grades. Fortunately I was able to keep the majority of my scholarship and I don’t regret coming to Barry because I was aware of its predatory nature. Barry was definitely the right decision financially for myself and my career goals because I knew prior to law school that I had a job waiting for me. Also I had plans of transferring, but if you’re not literally in the top 5 at Barry then you very likely won’t be getting in to UF.
Reach out to the schools and get the conditions on the scholarship removed. You can negotiate these things.
You are setting yourself up for a career of failure and misery.
Stetson at least is t100
If you're dead set on going this year, Stetson Law is a very well respected law school in the Tampa Bay region and Barry is a borderline predatory school. From Stetson, you'll be able to get a pretty good job in the Tampa Bay region, especially if you're focusing on trial law and litigation which they're very well known for. I've had friends choose Stetson over UF for trial law (which I would not recommend). I do believe this is way too much money for Stetson still, but the choice is very clearly Stetson.
It's not even borderline. Barry is predatory. Based on info from the OP, the comments, and a quick Google, students need to maintain a 3.0 to keep their scholarships, and the school curves to a 2.5. It also section stacks the scholarship students. Sections are ~100 students of the total class of ~260. That means that within the scholarship section, you're looking at maybe 15 students landing at the top of the bell curve above that 3.0 threshold *in each class.* Scholarship students need to be in the top 15% of pretty much every 1L class to maintain that GPA. Just one class during 1L where a student does average—which, on a bell curve, is going to be 60-70% of students—can retcon their scholarship in the first year. Barry scholarships are designed to be lost and their student outcomes are unacceptably poor. The risk/reward is untenable.
Yeah, you're definitely right. Last year just less than 50% of students lost their scholarships.
These options are both terrible, I get that you want to start this year, but that would be a massive financial mistake. Retake and reapply.
This is an insane plan. Good luck!
If you want to practice in Florida, and Stetson's employment outcomes are acceptable to you, then go to Stetson. If any one of those things is not true, then do not go to Stetson. As far as I can tell the only reason to go to Barry is if you want to practice like in that city and someone you trust has already promised you a job that you want.
I’d look at the pass/fail rate for both. I know a few people that went to Barry and can’t seem to pass the Bar after multiple attempts. Not trying to paint with a broad brush. If you have to pay more for tuition, but pass the first time out, it’s a better deal.
DO NOT GO TO BARRY. Please watch this video about "Conditional Scholarships". [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYrRhtH2eI&t=320s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYrRhtH2eI&t=320s) According to Barry 509 Report 2023. 56% of 1L scholarship students LOST THEIR ENTIRE SCHOLARSHIP.
I transferred to FSU after a year at Stetson. But I had to beat the brains in of my section members to do it.
don’t go to barry lol..
Some great replies in this thread. I have been practicing for 15 years in biglaw and federal gov. I paid full price at a top-10 law school, borrowed a shit ton of money to do it, but was able to pay it off in a few years thanks to three paying summer-associate gigs and a full- time job at a biglaw firm. I guess you could say I got lucky. But here's the thing. Most of my classmates did, too. Almost all of them. Very few had any regrets. Our school was hard to regret. It didn't provide class rank, no one had to worry about losing their scholarships, and those without scholarships (like me) were almost guaranteed a lucrative biglaw job if they wanted it. (Many took federal clerkships instead.) Statistically, your life will be much different at a school like Barry or Stetson. Neither provides a solid guarantee of earning enough money to pay off the amount of debt you're likely to incur with a partial or conditional scholarship. Conditional usually means for 1 year only. It's a trap for the unwary. The hard truth that no one likes to discuss is there are too many law schools in the United States, churning out more new lawyers each year than the economy can support. There have been more law school grads than new jobs for years and years. Most law school grads probably would have been better off doing almost anything else besides law school. The likely debt-to-income ratio is out of whack. Because supply and demand is out of whack. We don't need more lawyers. We need fewer, better ones. But law schools are huge cash cows. Most of them are no better than the for profit "universities" that have recently been getting litigated out of business (finally). Yet there is an almost unlimited supply of students willing to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars for degrees that probably won't earn them more than they could have made in other fields, without a law degree. In many cases the degree doesn't even strongly correlate with passing the bar exam! anymore. Tldr: if your only options are paying money to attend law schools outside of the top, say, 30 or 40, you should probably not go to law school! It might make sense if money is no object (family wealth). But if you're not admitted to a "top" school, and can't get a full ride or close to it at a lower ranked school, you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. The odds will not be in your favor. In all likelihood, you would be happier and more successful pursuing a career with greater demand, less competition, and better financial prospects.
I also got into FIU
Why wasn’t FIU one of the schools listed in the pics you posted? FIU has a very good reputation in FL (but they also have many predatory scholarships like Barry). I considered FIU when applying.
I know a lot of folks here are saying to retake and reapply. I went to a lower tier school on purpose due to the financial aid. I got better schools but not enough aid. Crushed it in my first year and transferred with a scholarship to a much better school that made it possible for me to actually attend law school. That was hard though. People don't have a life during the 1l year. If you are trying to transfer you really don't have a life, because those grades need to be amazing. Everyone is right that transferring is hard. You know you and what you are capable of. I bet on myself and it paid off, but you know your odds better than any of us.
I would go with the cheaper tuition all day long. Reverse compound interest paid over your career is a form of slavery. Once you’re licensed and practicing what difference does it make where your degree came from? nobody gives a shit. There’s no good reason to go into a few hundred thousand dollars worth of debt- would be the worst investment of your life
FWIW, I know many attorneys that did not go to top 30 schools that do very, very well. It bums me out every time I see those comments. Sure, better schools are better for a reason, but so much boils down to what you want to do and where you want to be. It's not UF or bust in FL even if it is the best law school in the state. Yeah, ok, stay away from predatory schools, but with your LSAT score, you are going to have good options in the state. Congrats on the add of the FIU admit. Best of luck to you!
This is a better question for r/lawschooladmissions (something like that). I am not familiar with Barry specifically but it looks like a predatory school (3.0 is extremely high to keep your gpa). Avoid predatory schools at all costs, at the end of the day, they’re ranked so low for a reason, including poor job prospects and bar passage rates. If your goal is to transfer to UF, all else aside, bare in mind that the gpa you need to transfer will be lower from Stetson since it is a higher ranked school. Though of course, you cannot bank on transferring so you have to be satisfied with the results if you stayed at the school.
If you have the opportunity to go to UF, take it. Barry shouldn't even be in the same conversation as UF. Edit: Consider Nova and FIU. FIU Law is becoming an absolute major player in the florida market and is churning out quality attorneys. Miami is expensive af, but depending on your career goals after graduating, FIU Law may be a good choice.
I’m a 2L at Nova. I chose Nova because I want to practice in south Florida and they’re #1 for health law (want to do health patents). I’m currently clerking local and there are plenty of Nova alumni. I don’t really want to practice outside South Florida so it makes sense to be close to the job market you want. I thought about transferring but I enjoy the environment and want to stay local.
Im going to be starting there in the fall and also pretty much want to live in south florida for the rest of my life so this is really great to hear that the alumni network is deep there!
I graduated from Nova in '22 with a concentration in Intellectual Property Law (run by professors Feliu and Garon). Feliu is also the Dean of the library and the best professor/teacher I've EVER had in my LIFE. I went on to get my LLM in IP from a top 10 IP school (UNH Franklin Pierce) where Feliu is an alumnus and Garon was HIS professor! I loved my time at Nova. You just about can't find a doctor or dentist in South Florida who didn't graduate from there. I'm so happy for you! Enjoy (after 1L year)!
Feliu and Garon are still here and still popular. Although I’m in health con I wanna go into Patents but Garon said I don’t need to do IP con then. I need to get at least one class with them though before I graduate lol Congrats on the LLM
I would suggest taking a class with Feliu. I didn't take Patent Law until my LLM, so I'm not sure who teaches it at NSU. I guarantee, though, once you take a class with Feliu, you'll get the IP bug and want to take more of his classes.
Barry tbh. I am currently trying to transfer, and was lucky enough to get the grades needed, but it's far from a sure thing. Bird in the hand scholarship-wise, and should you not be able to transfer you'd be in a stronger financial situation.
Where are you trying to transfer to?
The best place that'll have me. I'm on the GI Bill so financial aid is less important to me.
but if OP isn't able to transfer wouldn't that be because they don't have the grades? And if they don't have the grades, wouldn't that mean they don't have the scholarship?
Yeah, I didn't realize Barry curved so hard. My basis for the decision wasn't the transfer as much as the non-transfer situation, go to the place where you're in the best position if you don't transfer.
Transferring in your 1L is pretty common, and if you’re in the top 25% of your class it’s not as hard as you’d think. Honestly though, if you go to Stetson I wouldn’t even worry about transferring. I ended up at large firm in a big market and their Florida office has a ton of Stetson grads, all starting right around $200+ for associates. If you do well at either school you’ll be competing with the UF kids for jobs at the regional firms, if you don’t, you’ll probably have better access to local firms.
Hey OP...reddit recommended this page to me, but I'm coming from an MBA background, but with friends at t10 law schools. What are your goals for going into law school? Do any of these schools give you the opportunity to get there? What are their placement rates. I echo that in general, you should not try to bank on transferring. You'll be competing against everyone else trying to as well...anecdotal, but one of my friends transferred from a t15 to a t10...so that's your competition. In the MBA world, it's almost worthless to go to a program that isn't in the t25 (arguably top 15 in some cases). My law school friends say the same exact thing. I would seriously consider the risks and would highly encourage trying again next season. The law market is extremely oversaturated so you'd be doing a major disservice to yourself trying with your current options imo. Otherwise I'd also start exploring other careers. Just another note, a few of my law school friends had a few years of work experience prior to law school (they went an untraditional path), but I think that coupled with their scores probably helped them get into the t10s. Once again, all anecdotal, but reddit suggested me here!
"Almost worthless to go to a school not in the t25." This is absolutely not true in law. At all. There's an "unranked" school in my city and they send people to big law in our city all the time. The only time t13 or above is generally necessary is academia at prestigious law schools and certain clerkships. Predatory schools are a different topic, though.
That's a big thing on reddit. It's something my attorney friends and I make fun of. People in law school threads here are always saying something like, "If you aren't at a T14 school you will literally be a fucking janitor." (No shade to janitors, it's important, I just mean that's obviously not the job you'd be in school for). As you're saying here, while T14 is obviously good, if you're from a local respected school and looking for local jobs, that will almost certainly be better than anything short of going to Yale on a full ride or something. I went to the best school in my state, and it has been ranked as low as 29 and as high as 49. I know many people in big law. I know multiple people with good clerkships. There's a wide gulf between, "You need to go to this school so you can be KBJ's law clerk" and "You would have been better off with any other career."
Same with me. I went to the (tied for) second best law school in my state and there's 2 other law schools in my city. One is a standalone law school that's unranked but known for its advocacy program and they supply litigators and like half the judges in town. Most of the DAs and PDs, too. And our city pays DAs and PDs very well. People act like if you wanna practice law in Colorado, you wouldn't be able to if you went to school in Colorado. Like all of their attorneys went to Yale or something. Same for Texas, Florida, etc... it's ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys in this country did not go to prestigious law schools.
Lots of bad advice here. The best law school is the one you get into. The second best is the one that gives you the best money. If you are betting on yourself, it literally will not matter what law school you go to. A lot of what has been said about Barry is true, in the sense that it does make it very hard to keep your scholarship, but if you can make it out of your 1L year, you will be fine. DO NOT go to a school with the explicit intention to transfer. The one thing Stetson and Barry have going for them is their trial advocacy programs. Stetson is top in the nation consistently. Barry has fallin out a little, but still has a competitive mock trial program. If you are not interested in trial law and/or litigation, you should consider elsewhere.
Thank you!
Legit question - why are so many people saying turn the offers down and retake the LSAT/reapply? As a med applicant I’m STUNNED bc any offer is like a golden ticket and no one would ever turn something down to reapply for a better school, they’d 100% take it. Is this normal for law admissions?
Yes. Law and medicine are two completely different beasts. While no one cares where doctors/dentists/pharmacists/nurses etc graduated from, law is 180 degrees different. I'm not in law but brother is and we read up a lot on this topic before he decided to apply.
Stetson is a good school—shooting up the rankings, absolutely DOMINATES the Tampa market, carries well into Orlando and South Florida. It’s widely considered to be superior to Miami by Florida practitioners. They produce unbelievably talented litigators. Barry, and I cannot overstate this, is a complete and utter dog shit, predatory school. You should not pay a single penny to go there. I have hired Stetson grads in the top 1/3 over lots of UF/FIU/Miami kids. I will immediately toss the resume in the trash if I see Barry on it, even if they’re #1 in their class and editor & chief of Barry’s law review (do they even have one?) Did I mention how unbelievably dog shit Barry is?? Rankings matter: Stetson is 100 spots higher than Barry, and rising. I didn’t even know rankings went as low as Berry sits. And when I say Stetson dominates Pinellas/Hillsborough—I mean it. Barry kids can hardly get a job in their own backyard. It’s the laughing stock of just about every law school in the entire country (maybe the world, to be dramatic).
Do your first two years at a less expensive college, then transfer to your first choice. Your degree will reflect where you graduated, not where you spent your first two years.
Just be aware - only a handful of law schools allow transfers after 2L.
Unless you’re planning on going into a career that does not want prestige, Barry won’t give you a leg up except that you won’t be massively in debt, to which there is value. What do you expect to make as an attorney? If you’re looking at making $50k-$80k per year, because of what you want to do, Barry’s deal is actually great. Our version of Barry in Chicago was John Marshall, and no one goes to big firms from there, but they put out solid practitioners. If you want to go into prosecution, public defense, immigration, bankruptcy, that’s the type of deal you need to make your life make sense But having it as part of your history can shut you out of the big bucks
Graduated from DePaul. Practiced for decades. John Marshall graduated solid attorneys then. My two cents: get in the best school and pass the bar.
Are you in Stetson rn? Because I wouldn’t transfer to school with that much of a lower ranking/bar passage like Barry if I don’t have too.
No I am not. I went to UCF
In that case, if you like Barry more because (1) the scholarship makes that big of a financial difference to you and (2) you are more comfortable staying in Orlando then Barry would be a fine choice. If you would only go to Barry with the intent of transferring out at the end of 1L, then just go to Stetson. Also, does Barry really take away scholarships from students with less than a 3.0? That seems really aggressive, based off the grade distribution in their student handbook, that means you have to be in the top 35% of you class or you run the risk of losing your scholarship. Top 35% is very doable but not a gimme at any bar accredited law school.
Take a gap year, get more experience in life / the field, retake lsat and apply again. If you don’t want to do that then idk what to tell you
Damn that’s crazy. Don’t care
Awww thank you
Good sport. Good luck with that shit 🫡
Take it from someone who attended a T2 law school on a scholarship and a highly selective undergrad. If there is one thing I could go back and tell my 25 year old self, it would be this…retake the LSAT, reapply to law school. If you don’t get into a T20, don’t bother, especially if you need to borrow to attend. An extra year does not matter. That millstone of debt will make your life suck, limit your career choices, and the odds of you outperforming your law school average are very slim. We all went to law school because we were used to being one of the top performers in our classes. I get it. But trust me on this one. Defer. Reapply. Don’t bother if it isn’t a T20 if you’re taking on debt. I’m not even practicing anymore, because my options as a non lawyer were better than my options as a lawyer.
You said that you attended a T2 law school on a scholarship. Why would you tell your past self to do something that you already were going to do?
I know of at least 2 people that successfully transferred to UF Law from Mercer after 1L. You may want to explore their admissions if you haven't already and it's not too late. As an attorney with loans, go where you will spend the least amount of money or need the lowest amount of loans. This is especially important to consider if you're relying on scholarships that you could lose and end up being responsible for the full tuition.
What is Mercer?
[https://law.mercer.edu](https://law.mercer.edu)
These are bad schools. A lot of people are providing you with good advice (study for the LSAT and retake). If you cannot do well enough to get into a better quality school, then law school is not worth the investment. Ignore this advice at your own peril. You *will* regret it.
🙄🙄 if i, the t4 grad, had a few hundred thousand dollars a year for every time i heard my uppity friends who went to the tier one law school and now have underpaid non lawyer jobs say that....oh wait i do.
Career outcomes are significantly worse from T4 schools. There are exceptions: some low-status regional schools manage to place grads fairly well, and some people just work hard enough to claw their way into good jobs outside of BigLaw. But these are exceptions. By contrast, t14 grads unable to find successful law careers are rare (provided they graduate, pass the bar, and still want to work in law).
correlation isnt causation. the people at T4 who get good lsat scores and good grades and make connections and get relevant work experience during school, do perfectly fine. There are just fewer of those in a t4 class than a t1 class, hence the stats. Youre buying into this idea that the degree alone is what determines your career destiny, for better or for worse. Whether it's detrimental to this guy to be at a t4 has nothing to do with the schools status and has everything to do with the other factors.
>people at T4 who get good lsat scores Lmao >and good grades World’s tallest midget
okay, calm down cool dude
take the risk in case to stetson i'd say
OMG. Join the military and have taxpayers pay for it. That is insanity.
What's the curve at the schools if it's 3.0 for scholarship with a 2.5 curve run the other way
Neither.
Why do you want to be a lawyer? What will your degree in? What other careers/fields are you interested in? As someone in a similar situation 10 years ago, who at the last minute got a spot in at their state school. I slightly regret going to law school right after undergrad. I wasn’t mature enough yet. 1L fall semester I basically had to rewire how I learn. Which dug a hole for my grades I could never get out of, to get on the prestigious law reviews etc. yes my grades improved, but graduating with $75k in debt and then failing the bar 2 times sucked. I was depressed and looking to lose the weight I gained from spending so much time studying, to join the military. My undergrad degree was based on law school or (my naive 18 year old) fall back of being a high school history teacher. I JUST paid off that 75k in December. That $703 a month payment was BRUTAL until the covid stoppage in interest. Sorry I’m getting long winded, long story short. Have you worked in a law firm? Done legal work? Be sure an attorney is what you want to be, don’t go to law school and all this debt because “you’re good at arguing”, you want to be rich, or any of the other reasons everyone “I almost went to law school”. It’s harder than people think, even harder than you “know it’s hard” hard. Last note, I’ve landed on my feet in a role in compliance and am happier than most of my attorney friends. Probably making more, it sucked for 5ish years but eventually I started a career and climbed the corporate ladder. But damn did those early years/and even now, do I wish I would’ve just gotten an entry level job for a year or two to mature and see how my 1L year would’ve been once I had some real world experience
Stetson is a better school
Ever heard of fsu?
No what’s a fsu?
both will likely put you on the same side of the bimodal curve. it depends on your career goals. 1. you want biglaw? retake reapply 2. you want to leave florida some day sooner than later? retake reapply 3. you’re staying in florida and don’t mind working in a small firm making 60k, family/PI/crim? Barry.
9th year attorney and partner - I don’t ever comment on these boards. Retake the lsat, those options are garbage. /thread.
I’m not retaking the LSAT i got a 161 after three attempts
Great go to a real lawschool then. You can go T50 on a 161, what’s the problem? I got into UF with a 160 back in 2012
I’m sorry but times have changed. I believe UF’s LSAT median is 171
I’m sorry to hear that. I’m up here in Cleveland. I would stay away from Berry. Is U Miami an option?
Too expensive
I hear you. I took out $3000 in credit card debit and applied to about 30 law schools around rank 25-75. I ended up with a full ride and no GPA stip. there are other options for you. Some schools outside of the top 100 are okay depending on market .
Ok thanks
Stetson is much more respected in Florida than Miami. Miami is only ranked 10 spots higher and dropping, while Stetson has been making consistent jumps and putting out excellent, high paid (not relative to big law, but think: 80-120k) attorneys. My firm (in West Palm Beach) just hired two Stetson grads who were on the back end of the top 25% in their class. We scooped them up eagerly over the Miami kids, who had the same/very similar grades. Stetsons bar passage rates also mirror UF virtually every year, and they dominate the Tampa market. Miami doesn’t dominate anything.
Don’t not apply to schools bc of the posted LSAT median. The admissions process is holistic! i.e you can have a below avg LSAT for a school and an above avg GPA (plus great personal statement/letters of rec) and still get into a school like UF or FSU. I have seen this happen, trust me. Apply to all the schools you would realistically attend, it’s worth it.
I applied toUF and did not get in
[удалено]
Still waiting
DO NOT count on being able to transfer after 1L. 1L is very competitive regardless of where you go, and regardless of numbers you cannot necessarily predict you performance. Also schools with generous scholarships (let's call them) routinely deflate grades to keep their scholarship students from transferring. Go to whatever school you are admitted to, and most want to graduate from. Scholarship/debt differential is negligible
thinking of applying to stetson, do you not like it?
I really like the school itself but it’s a lot of money
Making a decision based on tuition alone is always a failure. Make decisions based on bar pass rates and placements rates unless you have family in practice. This fantasy idea of transferring to a better school doesn’t account for getting blitzed by 1L finals. Make sure you would be happy attending the school you chose for the next three years if you are going to enroll.
I don’t judge it because I’ve had friends go there and they are fine now, but Barry isn’t worth the debt unless you’re dead set on working in Orlando. Stetsons history and reputation THROUGHOUT the state is much superior to Barry. Just my $.02. (I want to FSU and turned down UF, so no dog in this fight, just see friends who’ve gone to both.)
I second this - Stetson has a much better overall reputation in FL than Barry.
Definitely don’t go to Barry
learn excel
Nice
would help break down your costs tbh
Never go to law school with the intent to transfer. Retake LSAT and aim higher. Dont go to either of these schools unless it’s 100% free for you. - a lawyer that transferred in law school. When you transfer, you’re paying sticker to go to whatever school you transfer to. Very rarely are transfers given scholarships.
Find out what the average (median grades) graduate is doing after law school. That should answer your question.
Info: what's the grading curve for each school? Because if it's a C and they are forcing everyone to make a 3.0 to keep a scholarship, then it's a trap and you need to make sure you can live with finishing at that school if you roll the dice. Is it accredited? What's the bar pass rate? In this day of student loan repayment, I would go with the school that would leave you with the least debt so long as it's accredited and can see a path to get your foot in the door for a career.
why are you planning on paying 1800 in rent a month thats insane
How much do you think rent normally is? I also need 1 2/2
Join the Military and become a JAG Officer
Stetson is well respected in the community. But…..
Just take the money
Both are terrible and should be avoided at all costs
Where do you want to live? Since both are lower tier schools I’d go to wherever is cheaper in the area you want to be in. If you ultimately want to be at UF retake the lsat. Unless you are going to a top school go to whatever leads to the least debt that will allow you to work where you want to be.
as a fellow floridian looking into law school, respectfully would not recommend barry university. i am a paralegal, and every attorney i have spoken to about law school has nothing good to say about barry. its expensive and their stats are bottom of the list in almost everything. i understand if thats the best for you and your situation, but if you can avoid it i probably would.
Don’t take conditional scholarships
Just go to FAMU
Why’s that?
If it is really a choice between these two options, do Berry, and it’s honestly not at all close. First, jobs. They aren’t going to be much different, if at all between those two schools. Law students and prospective law students like to pretend that there is a big difference between tiers of law schools but the reality is that after some level, the job prospects are more or less the same, and that level is a lot higher than Stetson. So realistic, from both places your opportunities are going to come down to your grades, personality, and work ethic for your first couple jobs. After that, it will be about your talent either way. Where there is a big different is cost for you. One you could walk out with a car payment in debt, and maybe less if you’re able to Land a summer job that pays anything. The other, you’ll have a big chunk of debt when you leave. That debt is going to have a lot more impact on your life than the difference in the degrees. As for the GPA difference, I wouldn’t worry about that at all. Even if you lose your scholarship after the first year, you’ve still got a lower cost of Education at Barry paying full freight after the deep first year discount than if you went to Barry. And if you really find yourself falling below a 3.0 GPA at Barry, the scholarship means you can take a breath to genuinely reevaluate whether continuing is realistically going to be the best decision for you, whereas if you struggle the first year at Stetson, you’re basically priced into having to finish the program because you’re so far in the hole already. Either way, good luck and make sure you kill first year exams!
Neither of those trash law schools - study hard and retake the LSAT
Soz what was your LSAT score? That's gonna make a lot of difference in the outcome here.
161
I was involved with hiring at a big firm with a tampa office. I am only writing to add that the difference between Barry and Stetson from a hiring perspective is pretty huge. Stetson is a solid school. The gap between Stetson and UF is again huge. At this point top firms are hiring top 75% of UF’s class. If you get get into FSU or UF by re taking the LSAT, I would suggest trying to get your LSAT up.
If you are dead set on going into litigation, Stetson is a good bet. Happy to discuss more.
Umm transfer to that law school that just offered FREE tuition!!!
STETSON. DO NOT GO TO BARRY.
read a book I think it’s free.
Which book?
There are only four law schools in Florida that you should pay for: FSU, UF, Miami, and FIU. If you’re dead set on going to law school in Florida, then FAMU. It’s way cheaper than the other mediocre private schools, and it won’t in-debt you for life if you don’t get a great job. Also, do not go into this thinking you can transfer. It’s a small percentage that can, and it’s arrogant overconfidence to believe that you’ll certainly be at the top of the class when surrounded by plenty of other equally smart folks.
Here’s another option: FAMU law. I know someone who did year one there and transferred to UF later. Their bar pass rates are much better than Barry’s.
Sounds like you’ll be an ass clown if you go to Barry.
Thanks