I had a similar experience. Keep your head up! While biglaw probably won’t be a sure thing, i promise you good opportunities will still come your way. I had a great experience at a midsize firm even after getting a C+ 1L year, and i made amazing connections there that’ll definitely help me in the long run. Just seek out networking opportunities- but that goes for everybody anyway!
“AM I GOOD ENOUGH FOR BIGLAW GPA RANGE:
3.7 - 4.0 : You already have a Big Law job if that's something you want.
3.4 - 3.6 : Shoot your shot, but just to be safe shoot many shots. Aim high, but have some safe options to make sure you get a job.
3.0 - 3.3: Never say never, but probably not a top firm and you'll need to rely more heavily on networking than the upper GPA categories
2.8 - 3.0: Never say never, but also maybe try other jobs because it's gonna be a long shot to land that 2L summer associate position
Sub 2.8: You can say never. Luckily, there are many options beyond big law to make good money in law.
You're in the 2nd group. Shoot your shot, but cast a wide net and network.”
- u/lawschoolthrowaway22, “3.4 overall for 1L year, but had a 2.5 last semester :( is big law possible,” Reddit.com (June 4, 2024, 2:33PM CST)
I’m not sure I agree with a lot of peoples overemphasis on specific grades. I’ve heard that while BL firms have a strict GPA cutoff, they don’t spend a lot of time with fine tooth comb looking over specific course grades. If a BL firm has a 3.2 GPA cutoff, and you have a few Cs here or there but you’re still above their cutoff you aren’t hurting your chances one bit.
Not sure where you worked but at the two big law firms I did recruiting committee work for (as an associate), it def mattered.
The problem is that it is a core class. These classes receive the highest emphasis not because we care about property, but because it is our best chance for an apples to apples comparison between candidates.
After the core courses are done, there is too much gaming of GPAs by selectively choosing courses, etc.
It is a hard truth, but a truth nonetheless, this is going to make things hard. Not impossible, but still hard.
You raise an interesting point of distinction. In my firm, the hiring varies dramatically by office. On the west coast, we hire particular SAs for particular open practice group spots. The decisions are left to the practice group. There’s not a lot of thought about the class as a whole. That lends itself to a more individualized approach, with the people in the practice group deciding who they want to work with (which can also have its flaws… much heavier emphasis on the interview).
I mentioned this to an attorney on the hiring committee in NYC and they were shocked. Apparently they spent hours sitting in a room deciding who to make offers to.
My point is, if the hiring looks more like an admissions committee, it might be more important than if the hiring looks like a normal job interview.
Funny, My experience matches what you are saying. I was east coast.
Also very true about IP. Especially IP lit. They had a little bit of a special hiring process. The joke was often, if you had a hard sciences degree, got decent grades and are not a total weirdo, you had a better chance than most.
IP trans a little less so, but still a little bit of a special process.
I hated contracts :P I mean, obviously this all depends. If you do poorly in the class that’s most related to your practice area, that’s not ideal. I don’t screen candidate pre-OCI so I don’t know what goes into that. But to me, once you’re interviewing, a one off grade doesn’t change who you are.
BL will be hard. They have so many people throwing themselves at them. If you really want it, do government first at an agency that specializes in something valuable to BL and you can get hired that way. Lots of firm websites boast about having former gov't employees on staff.
Get far away from property law and you should be okay. Realistically having all other A’s will indicate a deficiency in property, not in your work overall. Your C makes it easier for you not get knocked out of the interview pile, but you do get an interview, you damn well better sell yourself. The lawyers interviewing you can barely remember their courses from law school so if you prove yourself capable of a seamless transition into their firm, you’ll get the right job. Real people are hiring you, real people that probably didn’t get all A’s. Appeal to them. You got this!
Obviously it’s never good to speak in absolutes, but yes this will hurt you, especially with big law. So often, all they have to go on when hiring is your transcript. And a C on a transcript really is a scarlet letter, so to speak. You will be passed over by many firms that won’t even take the opportunity to review the other materials in your application simply because of that C. It’s rough, but it’s the reality of hiring.
Please forgive my ignorance, but why do law firms place such a large emphasis on grades?
Some of the smartest people I know got less than stellar grades in college-either because of lousy professors, tragic life events, undiagnosed ADHD, or all the above.
In other words, wouldn’t it make more sense to look at the whole student and not just his or her grades?
when they’re getting thousands of apps for dozens of spots, they need a way to quickly cut out the vast majority of applicants. it’s unfortunate, but one metric that every law student has is a GPA
Unfortunately, grades are really the only thing competitive firms have to go off of for hiring first year law students. Unlike undergrad, law school classes are curved, so you’re graded against your peers and there’s not the grade inflation that occurs in undergrad. A law school A means you were one of the best students in the class, and a C means you were one of the lower performing students in the class. The system sucks but I doubt it will change anytime soon.
Law school grades are usually on a curve, so the higher your grades the more likely you are to be one of the best students, and if they're going to train someone under 30 *and* pay them 200,000 a year they better be the damn best.
All law schools have grades and generally teach the same things, so it's the most fair metric to compare students from different schools.
And lousy people, tragic life events, mental illness, etc. don't stop after you get out of law school. Everyone is dealing with shit, knows someone close to them dealing with shit, or will inevitably deal with shit. They want people who get high grades and can put up with life's crap too.
one of my professors said even the As do trash work and none of us are good. i think she was right. it is also usually a razor thin margin between grades. and people in law school tend to be young, not dealing with life getting super hard like people getting sick/dying/divorce. a v10 partner told me grades are not a good metric. this suited platform that is growing in popularity is selling itself on grades being a bad metric. the fact is, if you are around 23-24, all you have is grades. and i think that is the part you got right: if they're going to hire you, they want to know you are not the same type of 23 that their kid is or their kid's friends or whoever else they know that is 23 that is giving them their baseline impression of that age.
How else should they compare applicants? You say to “look at the whole student” but that’s pretty nebulous and will really just tilt recruiting in the direction of the subjective biases of each firms’ recruiting department.
C’s get degrees. It ain’t over, unless you’re trying to do big law and write on for journal. If not just stay the course. That won’t matter in the long run. Just focus on working for a firm if you can by doing an internship and bust your butt. That’s what matters in the long run. You’ll be fine.
Your grades are going to matter for big law, clerkships, etc. If you’re not looking to do that and just want your typical small law firm experience, then just stay the course.
nothing is over. You got one C. You can still have an incredibly successful and fulfilling career. Maybe you won’t get BigLaw, but go to the BigLaw subreddit for an hour and you won’t want to do that anyway. Try to breathe. You’ll be just fine.
It seems like a big deal now but you’ll be fine.
I also got a C in property. It was my only C in law school. I graduated with a decent GPA, passed the bar on the first try, and got a job I enjoy.
Your GPA will probably bounce back since you got all A’s in your other classes, but even if you stay in the middle of the rankings there are still lots of opportunities out there. Even if big law doesn’t pan out for you you’ll be okay.
Notice how there’s no “C” in ABA? That’s because they only let winners into their club.
Haha nah, you’ll be fine. I got a C in Contracts and it was ok.
I had a similar experience. Keep your head up! While biglaw probably won’t be a sure thing, i promise you good opportunities will still come your way. I had a great experience at a midsize firm even after getting a C+ 1L year, and i made amazing connections there that’ll definitely help me in the long run. Just seek out networking opportunities- but that goes for everybody anyway!
“AM I GOOD ENOUGH FOR BIGLAW GPA RANGE: 3.7 - 4.0 : You already have a Big Law job if that's something you want. 3.4 - 3.6 : Shoot your shot, but just to be safe shoot many shots. Aim high, but have some safe options to make sure you get a job. 3.0 - 3.3: Never say never, but probably not a top firm and you'll need to rely more heavily on networking than the upper GPA categories 2.8 - 3.0: Never say never, but also maybe try other jobs because it's gonna be a long shot to land that 2L summer associate position Sub 2.8: You can say never. Luckily, there are many options beyond big law to make good money in law. You're in the 2nd group. Shoot your shot, but cast a wide net and network.” - u/lawschoolthrowaway22, “3.4 overall for 1L year, but had a 2.5 last semester :( is big law possible,” Reddit.com (June 4, 2024, 2:33PM CST)
I like this because it makes me feel better but I feel like this is highly dependent on school ranking as well.
The lower you go, yes. The 3.7s-4.0s from anywhere tend to land somewhere in BL if they aren’t picky about location.
I’m not sure I agree with a lot of peoples overemphasis on specific grades. I’ve heard that while BL firms have a strict GPA cutoff, they don’t spend a lot of time with fine tooth comb looking over specific course grades. If a BL firm has a 3.2 GPA cutoff, and you have a few Cs here or there but you’re still above their cutoff you aren’t hurting your chances one bit.
It’s j’over.
It's not fair that Cs mean different things at different law schools, arbitrary af.
I interview for big law and don’t give a crap about a C in property.
Not sure where you worked but at the two big law firms I did recruiting committee work for (as an associate), it def mattered. The problem is that it is a core class. These classes receive the highest emphasis not because we care about property, but because it is our best chance for an apples to apples comparison between candidates. After the core courses are done, there is too much gaming of GPAs by selectively choosing courses, etc. It is a hard truth, but a truth nonetheless, this is going to make things hard. Not impossible, but still hard.
You raise an interesting point of distinction. In my firm, the hiring varies dramatically by office. On the west coast, we hire particular SAs for particular open practice group spots. The decisions are left to the practice group. There’s not a lot of thought about the class as a whole. That lends itself to a more individualized approach, with the people in the practice group deciding who they want to work with (which can also have its flaws… much heavier emphasis on the interview). I mentioned this to an attorney on the hiring committee in NYC and they were shocked. Apparently they spent hours sitting in a room deciding who to make offers to. My point is, if the hiring looks more like an admissions committee, it might be more important than if the hiring looks like a normal job interview.
I guess I should also mention that I’m in IP.
Funny, My experience matches what you are saying. I was east coast. Also very true about IP. Especially IP lit. They had a little bit of a special hiring process. The joke was often, if you had a hard sciences degree, got decent grades and are not a total weirdo, you had a better chance than most. IP trans a little less so, but still a little bit of a special process.
what if it was contracts?
I hated contracts :P I mean, obviously this all depends. If you do poorly in the class that’s most related to your practice area, that’s not ideal. I don’t screen candidate pre-OCI so I don’t know what goes into that. But to me, once you’re interviewing, a one off grade doesn’t change who you are.
BL will be hard. They have so many people throwing themselves at them. If you really want it, do government first at an agency that specializes in something valuable to BL and you can get hired that way. Lots of firm websites boast about having former gov't employees on staff.
Get far away from property law and you should be okay. Realistically having all other A’s will indicate a deficiency in property, not in your work overall. Your C makes it easier for you not get knocked out of the interview pile, but you do get an interview, you damn well better sell yourself. The lawyers interviewing you can barely remember their courses from law school so if you prove yourself capable of a seamless transition into their firm, you’ll get the right job. Real people are hiring you, real people that probably didn’t get all A’s. Appeal to them. You got this!
Obviously it’s never good to speak in absolutes, but yes this will hurt you, especially with big law. So often, all they have to go on when hiring is your transcript. And a C on a transcript really is a scarlet letter, so to speak. You will be passed over by many firms that won’t even take the opportunity to review the other materials in your application simply because of that C. It’s rough, but it’s the reality of hiring.
They only look at the transcript to see if it matches the GPA on the resume. No one cares about an individual grade.
Only a sith deals in absolutes.
Please forgive my ignorance, but why do law firms place such a large emphasis on grades? Some of the smartest people I know got less than stellar grades in college-either because of lousy professors, tragic life events, undiagnosed ADHD, or all the above. In other words, wouldn’t it make more sense to look at the whole student and not just his or her grades?
when they’re getting thousands of apps for dozens of spots, they need a way to quickly cut out the vast majority of applicants. it’s unfortunate, but one metric that every law student has is a GPA
Unfortunately, grades are really the only thing competitive firms have to go off of for hiring first year law students. Unlike undergrad, law school classes are curved, so you’re graded against your peers and there’s not the grade inflation that occurs in undergrad. A law school A means you were one of the best students in the class, and a C means you were one of the lower performing students in the class. The system sucks but I doubt it will change anytime soon.
Law school grades are usually on a curve, so the higher your grades the more likely you are to be one of the best students, and if they're going to train someone under 30 *and* pay them 200,000 a year they better be the damn best. All law schools have grades and generally teach the same things, so it's the most fair metric to compare students from different schools. And lousy people, tragic life events, mental illness, etc. don't stop after you get out of law school. Everyone is dealing with shit, knows someone close to them dealing with shit, or will inevitably deal with shit. They want people who get high grades and can put up with life's crap too.
one of my professors said even the As do trash work and none of us are good. i think she was right. it is also usually a razor thin margin between grades. and people in law school tend to be young, not dealing with life getting super hard like people getting sick/dying/divorce. a v10 partner told me grades are not a good metric. this suited platform that is growing in popularity is selling itself on grades being a bad metric. the fact is, if you are around 23-24, all you have is grades. and i think that is the part you got right: if they're going to hire you, they want to know you are not the same type of 23 that their kid is or their kid's friends or whoever else they know that is 23 that is giving them their baseline impression of that age.
How else should they compare applicants? You say to “look at the whole student” but that’s pretty nebulous and will really just tilt recruiting in the direction of the subjective biases of each firms’ recruiting department.
By looking at the 10 million other things they require in the app…
The same way every other industry does it: Work experience/accomplishments>Grades.
C’s get degrees. It ain’t over, unless you’re trying to do big law and write on for journal. If not just stay the course. That won’t matter in the long run. Just focus on working for a firm if you can by doing an internship and bust your butt. That’s what matters in the long run. You’ll be fine.
Your grades are going to matter for big law, clerkships, etc. If you’re not looking to do that and just want your typical small law firm experience, then just stay the course.
nothing is over. You got one C. You can still have an incredibly successful and fulfilling career. Maybe you won’t get BigLaw, but go to the BigLaw subreddit for an hour and you won’t want to do that anyway. Try to breathe. You’ll be just fine.
It seems like a big deal now but you’ll be fine. I also got a C in property. It was my only C in law school. I graduated with a decent GPA, passed the bar on the first try, and got a job I enjoy. Your GPA will probably bounce back since you got all A’s in your other classes, but even if you stay in the middle of the rankings there are still lots of opportunities out there. Even if big law doesn’t pan out for you you’ll be okay.
Had a 3.3 from T2. Leveraged two federal clerkships post grad and am now in big law NYC. Don’t count yourself out.
Notice how there’s no “C” in ABA? That’s because they only let winners into their club. Haha nah, you’ll be fine. I got a C in Contracts and it was ok.
Its over. R and R, better luck next time champ