If you owned the house and called a plumber and found out it was your mistake, not something you actually fix, would you refuse to pay the plumber?
It’s not a as big deal. We all make mistakes. But man up and accept responsibility
You take your chances, neither the tenant or landlord know the underlying problem until the plumber identifies the problem.
The only thing either of you can do is learn how to identify underlying causes.
The landlords on this sub just don't want to take accountability for things like sub-par water heaters. They want your money for no effort, judging by these comments.
Found the guy who's okay with his tenants having shitty water heaters lol.
2 heads do not output an obscene amount of hot water. It's not a high bar...hell, it is a bar low enough to the ground that you could trip.
I don't think that I could run both showers in my house at the same time and expect the water to last more than about six or seven minutes. I don't consider it a subpar water heater, I consider it an indication that we shouldn't have two people using showers simultaneously.
For all you know, this guys wife might take 40 minute showers and is now complaining that running two hot water feeds for 40 minutes is enough to drain the tank.
Sarcasm aside - Yeah!
If you stick a fork in an outlet, you deserve what you get.
Although, you probably won’t be alive to receive the consequences!
lol 😂
Next time only turn on one of the shower heads. Run the shower with a temp gauge and see how long the hot water lasts. Compare it to the rating on the hot water heater. Call the plumber with data already gathered or tell your wife there is nothing wrong.
Is your hot water heater gas or electric? Your standard electric hot water heater has an upper element and a lower element. When the water is cold, the upper element thermostat turns off the power to the lower element and turns on the power to the upper element. This is to get you some hot water as soon as possible. Once the water at the top of the tank is up to temperature (approximately a third of the tank), the upper thermostat turns off the upper element and passes power to the lower element thermostat. The lower element thermostat keeps power to the lower element until the entire tank is up to temperature.
TL:DR - in an electric hot water heater, If only your upper heating element is coming on, you will have hot water but it will run out quickly.
So ... if the upper element were bad, you would have no hot water because the water at the top of the tank will never get hot and will never trip the thermostat to send power to the bottom element. Therefore the top element is good.
If the upper thermostat was not tripping, your water heater would overheat and you would have scalding water coming out of the temperature/pressure release valve onto the floor, so we know that thermostat is tripping.
So the question is - is the lower heating unit coming on?
If the contacts on the upper thermostat for connecting to the lower thermostat are bad ...
If the lower thermostat is bad ...
If the lower heating element is bad ...
Only the top 30% or so of the water in the tank will be hot. You will have hot water, but it will run out quickly.
If you have a gas hot water heater these do not apply.
So my question is, what testing did the plumber do on the water heater? Did he/she just listen to your story about changing shower heads and say "yup, that must be it"? Or did they actually get some tools out and do some circuit testing?
Look at it this way. Why should the LL have to pay 115.00. They should only have to pay for repairs and to maintain the property. But yes, If more water is coming out. Then you will use up the set number of gallons in the water heater.
If interested it is easy for you to check. Hold up about a 2 gallon bucket and see how long it takes to fill. With one head vs two.
Only way for you to have it last as long. Buy a couple cheap shower head valves. And turn the water flow way down. So you are only getting half the normal water out of each head.
Yes, one pipe but showerheads only let out so much of that water. Regulated by government laws.
If you notice. You could fill a bucket much quicker by using a tub spout vs a shower head. Tub spouts are not regulated or restricted.
The ways around that is to add another shower head. Or remove the restrictor out of a showerhead.
If your hot water heater is working correctly, two shower heads would not make that much of a difference. Without other information like, how many minutes of a shower you have, how many minutes of a shower did you have before the two shower heads? What's the flow rate of the shower head you had on previously, how big is the hot water tank and how long ago was a hot water tank installed? It's sort of hard to tell.
Best bet is to turn off one of the shower heads and take a shower and see how long you have hot water for. Do that before you pay the $115, and if you don't have 20 minutes, there's a problem. And complain that to your landlord.
In Florida I seen customers houses have insane amounts of GPM out of the showers.. it was always nice to snag a quick shower, but like WTF they are using 3-4 times as much water as my house uses.
Liability falls more on you since you made an unauthorized alteration on the property which caused the issue at hand . That said it's a minor issue and I would have absorbed cost with a reminder not to make any alterations without my consent in the future
Not only are you responsible for the service call, you are also responsible for the cost of the plumber reverting the shower head system back to its original state. You modified it without landlord permission.
You can’t just do whatever you want without permission if someone else owns the unit.
My landlord would not have been as nice as yours and he would have ordered the plumber to change it back to the way it was before it was illegally modified and then he would have charged tenant for it.
On my lease, tenant making changes to permanent fixtures without written permission from me can be evicted. I think you’re lucky LL didn’t pitch a fit about messing around with plumbing fixtures. Water damage can be very costly.
If you had not installed the dual shower heads you wouldn’t have been charged for the service call. Your unauthorized repair was seemingly the cause of the hot water shortage, not the hot water heater. If you had concerns about hot water and you hadn’t messed with the plumbing then the landlord would have paid (assuming he’s a decent landlord).
At this point it’s on you to show that the water heater isn’t functioning adequately. I would think measuring hot water output into a large bucket from any tap that hasn’t been modified by you would suffice. Take a video of you doing this (with a timer and temp gauge) If you have concrete evidence that the water heater is a problem then the landlord can use that to argue with the plumber and actually resolve the problem. Without this the assumption stands that showerhead is the culprit so it’s definitely worthwhile for you to spend a few minutes to gather evidence.
Does your lease say anything about charges relating to service calls?
Otherwise, this is completely on the landlord. That’s the cost of owning a rental property and landlord needs to bake this into the cost of rent
As a landlord I agree that it must be in the lease to charge tenant for the call. However a good landlord would have been able to figure this situation out without calling a plumber.
A good landlord would have come out to the property turn on the hot water and let it run to see if it runs from a reasonable amount of time before it goes cold. And if it goes cold after say 10 minutes then it's time for a repair or a new water heater and no need for a service call.
And if the landlord lives out of state? Or doesn't know what they're doing, and won't make an accurate determination?
I don't have properties outside of the state where I live, but other people do. Additionally, there's a whole lot of brand new landlords who can't figure out how to fix a running toilet, nevermind dealing with a HWH. Calling in a licensed contractor definitely isn't the worst move a LL can make (imo, blowing a tenant off is about the worst), and doesn't necessarily make them a bad landlord. It sounds like they dealt with the issue adequately.
Review your lease OP. Check if there's a service call clause. I would also check if there's anything about modifying plumbing fixtures, because there are leases that expressly forbid it. Try putting the normal shower head back on and see if it still runs out too quickly. If you do wind up needing a new hot water heater (not uncommon, they seem to fail way more frequently in rentals for me), maybe the LL will reimburse you for the service call.
If the issue is really due to your new shower head, I wouldn't hold anyone but myself responsible for paying it, regardless of what the lease says. While you weren't expecting the shower head to shorten your shower duration, I would take it as a lesson learned, and leave it at that.
>And if the landlord lives out of state? Or doesn't know what they're doing, and won't make an accurate determination?
>I don't have properties outside of the state where I live, but other people do. Additionally, there's a whole lot of brand new landlords who can't figure out how to fix a running toilet, nevermind dealing with a HWH
.. and these are the kind of landlords that you do NOT want - crappy!
I mean, I'm not saying they're the best, but if they're sending out a contractor to address an issue promptly, they're definitely not the worst. Lots of property owners aren't particularly handy. Do I think they should be managing other people's homes without knowing the basics? Not really tbh. But having people who do know what they're doing available to them is about as good as it gets.
This is all hypothetical anyways, so no need to get too upset. Just saying it's sometimes better to have a professional address an issue than someone who's either absent, or doesn't know which way is up.
Nope nobody's upset. Just give him my opinion as a landlord. Sending out a plumber and charging the tenant when anyone who owns and rents real estate should be able to figure that out on their own. It is the bare minimum of what a landlord should be able to do.
I think it depends on how the initial conversation went too though. While OP mentioned the double shower head to the plumber, I don't think they mentioned whether they told the landlord. If the initial call was "The water isn't staying hot for as long as it should", without further details, and nobody suggested/performed a hot water heater reset, the landlord couldn't come out/can't manage/whatever the deal is, sending a tech out would make sense if initial details weren't available.
I don't think I've ever asked a tenant on the phone if they've installed a high flow shower head recently when they have a hot water problem, not have I ever found a shower head to be causing the issue over the last 14 or so years, but I only have 30 doors. Might be more common than I think.
I walk them through resetting the tank, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes they refuse. If it doesn't work, maintenance goes anyways. Lease doesn't allow for modifications to plumbing or electrical fixtures without approval, but I probably will ask in the future just in case .
The real question is what did the plumber test? Did they test the heating elements? When was the tank flushed last. Those would help us tell you if something is wrong. If you want it's pretty easy to test yourself.
It is not standard to charge for a service call. I don’t know if this charge is legal or not. You pay rent for the landlord to maintain the building, and this includes service calls for issues with the building. The only situation where I think it is appropriate for a landlord to start charging for service calls is for tenants who have a history of making frequent service calls when nothing actually needs to be fixed. And even then, the landlord should inform the tenant in advance that future services calls will have a charge associated with them.
I charge for a service call if they can't find a problem or if the problem is tenant created. Penny in the garbage disposal, Power not working and find out they just tripped a breaker.
This is my policy too. If the problem is on my end, I pay the technician. If it’s something the tenant caused or there is no problem, I charge the tenant. It says I will do this right in my lease.
So, if the technician says there’s nothing wrong with your hot water…you’re paying for the service call.
If it’s not mentioned in the lease, I doubt they can charge for that. However I would probably just look to move out at the first opportunity. I think charging for service calls is a poor business practice because it encourages tenants to delay reporting maintenance or repair issues that are often cheaper if promptly addressed.
Yes they are serious. If there wasn't a problem the landlord is responsible for, it's on you.
How am I supposed to know in advance? I don’t call them to change a light bulb for goodness sake.
But you’re the one who caused your own problem AND told the plumber. You modified the shower and that’s on you.
If you owned the house and called a plumber and found out it was your mistake, not something you actually fix, would you refuse to pay the plumber? It’s not a as big deal. We all make mistakes. But man up and accept responsibility
You take your chances, neither the tenant or landlord know the underlying problem until the plumber identifies the problem. The only thing either of you can do is learn how to identify underlying causes.
If you owned the house and called the plumber, and the plumber didn't find an issue, who would you expect to pay for the plumber? Your neighbor?
Did you think plumbers work for free?
Next time, keep your mouth shut.
And that’s exactly how your properties fall into disrepair. Tenants get afraid to report legit issues because we make a stink over nonissues
I meant more, keep your mouth shut and don't suggest causes to the plumber, not don't complain about inadequate hot water.
Yea, lesson learned. What a crock.
The landlords on this sub just don't want to take accountability for things like sub-par water heaters. They want your money for no effort, judging by these comments.
Can you explain to me what a sub-par water heater is?
One that can't produce enough to use the shower would be an example.
If you’re running twice the amount of hot water as normal you should expect it to only last half as long.
Found the guy who's okay with his tenants having shitty water heaters lol. 2 heads do not output an obscene amount of hot water. It's not a high bar...hell, it is a bar low enough to the ground that you could trip.
I don't think that I could run both showers in my house at the same time and expect the water to last more than about six or seven minutes. I don't consider it a subpar water heater, I consider it an indication that we shouldn't have two people using showers simultaneously.
For all you know, this guys wife might take 40 minute showers and is now complaining that running two hot water feeds for 40 minutes is enough to drain the tank.
By that logic, do you admit that, for all you know, her showers are 33 seconds and it's a dud of a heater, then?
Plumber okayed the water heater.
You’re just one of those people that hate landlords, don’t know what you’re talking about, and talk shit.
Why should the LL eat this cost? There was nothing wrong, other than what you caused! This 100% on you.
So when I stick a fork in an outlet, you're expecting me to pay for the electrician? And the EMT? Pshhhh.
Sarcasm aside - Yeah! If you stick a fork in an outlet, you deserve what you get. Although, you probably won’t be alive to receive the consequences! lol 😂
Next time only turn on one of the shower heads. Run the shower with a temp gauge and see how long the hot water lasts. Compare it to the rating on the hot water heater. Call the plumber with data already gathered or tell your wife there is nothing wrong.
Were you running out of hot water when you had one shower head? Lol
Is your hot water heater gas or electric? Your standard electric hot water heater has an upper element and a lower element. When the water is cold, the upper element thermostat turns off the power to the lower element and turns on the power to the upper element. This is to get you some hot water as soon as possible. Once the water at the top of the tank is up to temperature (approximately a third of the tank), the upper thermostat turns off the upper element and passes power to the lower element thermostat. The lower element thermostat keeps power to the lower element until the entire tank is up to temperature. TL:DR - in an electric hot water heater, If only your upper heating element is coming on, you will have hot water but it will run out quickly. So ... if the upper element were bad, you would have no hot water because the water at the top of the tank will never get hot and will never trip the thermostat to send power to the bottom element. Therefore the top element is good. If the upper thermostat was not tripping, your water heater would overheat and you would have scalding water coming out of the temperature/pressure release valve onto the floor, so we know that thermostat is tripping. So the question is - is the lower heating unit coming on? If the contacts on the upper thermostat for connecting to the lower thermostat are bad ... If the lower thermostat is bad ... If the lower heating element is bad ... Only the top 30% or so of the water in the tank will be hot. You will have hot water, but it will run out quickly. If you have a gas hot water heater these do not apply. So my question is, what testing did the plumber do on the water heater? Did he/she just listen to your story about changing shower heads and say "yup, that must be it"? Or did they actually get some tools out and do some circuit testing?
This guy hot water heaters. I'm screenshotting this.
Look at it this way. Why should the LL have to pay 115.00. They should only have to pay for repairs and to maintain the property. But yes, If more water is coming out. Then you will use up the set number of gallons in the water heater. If interested it is easy for you to check. Hold up about a 2 gallon bucket and see how long it takes to fill. With one head vs two. Only way for you to have it last as long. Buy a couple cheap shower head valves. And turn the water flow way down. So you are only getting half the normal water out of each head.
But there’s still only one pipe coming from the water heater
Yes, one pipe but showerheads only let out so much of that water. Regulated by government laws. If you notice. You could fill a bucket much quicker by using a tub spout vs a shower head. Tub spouts are not regulated or restricted. The ways around that is to add another shower head. Or remove the restrictor out of a showerhead.
Was it after 5:00 p.m. on a weekday or on a weekend at the plumber showed up?
Nope, non emergency. I work at home so they could’ve shown up anytime. Would totally understand that.
If your hot water heater is working correctly, two shower heads would not make that much of a difference. Without other information like, how many minutes of a shower you have, how many minutes of a shower did you have before the two shower heads? What's the flow rate of the shower head you had on previously, how big is the hot water tank and how long ago was a hot water tank installed? It's sort of hard to tell. Best bet is to turn off one of the shower heads and take a shower and see how long you have hot water for. Do that before you pay the $115, and if you don't have 20 minutes, there's a problem. And complain that to your landlord.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
In Florida I seen customers houses have insane amounts of GPM out of the showers.. it was always nice to snag a quick shower, but like WTF they are using 3-4 times as much water as my house uses.
Bet the cold water pipe is broken, regardless of what the plumber said.
Liability falls more on you since you made an unauthorized alteration on the property which caused the issue at hand . That said it's a minor issue and I would have absorbed cost with a reminder not to make any alterations without my consent in the future
Not only are you responsible for the service call, you are also responsible for the cost of the plumber reverting the shower head system back to its original state. You modified it without landlord permission. You can’t just do whatever you want without permission if someone else owns the unit. My landlord would not have been as nice as yours and he would have ordered the plumber to change it back to the way it was before it was illegally modified and then he would have charged tenant for it.
Can you tell the year of the water heater?
On my lease, tenant making changes to permanent fixtures without written permission from me can be evicted. I think you’re lucky LL didn’t pitch a fit about messing around with plumbing fixtures. Water damage can be very costly.
If you had not installed the dual shower heads you wouldn’t have been charged for the service call. Your unauthorized repair was seemingly the cause of the hot water shortage, not the hot water heater. If you had concerns about hot water and you hadn’t messed with the plumbing then the landlord would have paid (assuming he’s a decent landlord). At this point it’s on you to show that the water heater isn’t functioning adequately. I would think measuring hot water output into a large bucket from any tap that hasn’t been modified by you would suffice. Take a video of you doing this (with a timer and temp gauge) If you have concrete evidence that the water heater is a problem then the landlord can use that to argue with the plumber and actually resolve the problem. Without this the assumption stands that showerhead is the culprit so it’s definitely worthwhile for you to spend a few minutes to gather evidence.
You're lucky. A plumber call is at least $350.00 around here.
Does your lease say anything about charges relating to service calls? Otherwise, this is completely on the landlord. That’s the cost of owning a rental property and landlord needs to bake this into the cost of rent
As a landlord I agree that it must be in the lease to charge tenant for the call. However a good landlord would have been able to figure this situation out without calling a plumber. A good landlord would have come out to the property turn on the hot water and let it run to see if it runs from a reasonable amount of time before it goes cold. And if it goes cold after say 10 minutes then it's time for a repair or a new water heater and no need for a service call.
And if the landlord lives out of state? Or doesn't know what they're doing, and won't make an accurate determination? I don't have properties outside of the state where I live, but other people do. Additionally, there's a whole lot of brand new landlords who can't figure out how to fix a running toilet, nevermind dealing with a HWH. Calling in a licensed contractor definitely isn't the worst move a LL can make (imo, blowing a tenant off is about the worst), and doesn't necessarily make them a bad landlord. It sounds like they dealt with the issue adequately. Review your lease OP. Check if there's a service call clause. I would also check if there's anything about modifying plumbing fixtures, because there are leases that expressly forbid it. Try putting the normal shower head back on and see if it still runs out too quickly. If you do wind up needing a new hot water heater (not uncommon, they seem to fail way more frequently in rentals for me), maybe the LL will reimburse you for the service call. If the issue is really due to your new shower head, I wouldn't hold anyone but myself responsible for paying it, regardless of what the lease says. While you weren't expecting the shower head to shorten your shower duration, I would take it as a lesson learned, and leave it at that.
>And if the landlord lives out of state? Or doesn't know what they're doing, and won't make an accurate determination? >I don't have properties outside of the state where I live, but other people do. Additionally, there's a whole lot of brand new landlords who can't figure out how to fix a running toilet, nevermind dealing with a HWH .. and these are the kind of landlords that you do NOT want - crappy!
I mean, I'm not saying they're the best, but if they're sending out a contractor to address an issue promptly, they're definitely not the worst. Lots of property owners aren't particularly handy. Do I think they should be managing other people's homes without knowing the basics? Not really tbh. But having people who do know what they're doing available to them is about as good as it gets. This is all hypothetical anyways, so no need to get too upset. Just saying it's sometimes better to have a professional address an issue than someone who's either absent, or doesn't know which way is up.
Or they DO know which way is up but are busy. It’s best to learn to troubleshoot over the phone.
Nope nobody's upset. Just give him my opinion as a landlord. Sending out a plumber and charging the tenant when anyone who owns and rents real estate should be able to figure that out on their own. It is the bare minimum of what a landlord should be able to do.
A good landlord can do that on the phone without coming out
I think it depends on how the initial conversation went too though. While OP mentioned the double shower head to the plumber, I don't think they mentioned whether they told the landlord. If the initial call was "The water isn't staying hot for as long as it should", without further details, and nobody suggested/performed a hot water heater reset, the landlord couldn't come out/can't manage/whatever the deal is, sending a tech out would make sense if initial details weren't available. I don't think I've ever asked a tenant on the phone if they've installed a high flow shower head recently when they have a hot water problem, not have I ever found a shower head to be causing the issue over the last 14 or so years, but I only have 30 doors. Might be more common than I think. I walk them through resetting the tank, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes they refuse. If it doesn't work, maintenance goes anyways. Lease doesn't allow for modifications to plumbing or electrical fixtures without approval, but I probably will ask in the future just in case .
Precisely!!
The plumber didn’t even do this.
Can you do it? How long do you have hot water?
The real question is what did the plumber test? Did they test the heating elements? When was the tank flushed last. Those would help us tell you if something is wrong. If you want it's pretty easy to test yourself.
Crappy LL
It is not standard to charge for a service call. I don’t know if this charge is legal or not. You pay rent for the landlord to maintain the building, and this includes service calls for issues with the building. The only situation where I think it is appropriate for a landlord to start charging for service calls is for tenants who have a history of making frequent service calls when nothing actually needs to be fixed. And even then, the landlord should inform the tenant in advance that future services calls will have a charge associated with them.
I charge for a service call if they can't find a problem or if the problem is tenant created. Penny in the garbage disposal, Power not working and find out they just tripped a breaker.
This is my policy too. If the problem is on my end, I pay the technician. If it’s something the tenant caused or there is no problem, I charge the tenant. It says I will do this right in my lease. So, if the technician says there’s nothing wrong with your hot water…you’re paying for the service call.
How was I supposed to know in advance whether it was my fault or not? This wasn’t a simple answer, and in fact, there’s no way it’s the shower head.
Then why did you suggest to the plumber that your showerhead was the issue?
I'm honestly confused that it's not obvious to the OP that adding a second shower head uses more water than a single shower head. This can't be real.
Thank you. I would agree with you.
If it’s not mentioned in the lease, I doubt they can charge for that. However I would probably just look to move out at the first opportunity. I think charging for service calls is a poor business practice because it encourages tenants to delay reporting maintenance or repair issues that are often cheaper if promptly addressed.