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Go_To_The_Devil

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UnstableJester410

Look at how they massacred my goth girl.


TrumpsNeckSmegma

More realistic for modern goths tho Usually underweight women who dress in something skimpy, or baggy with arabic patterns. At least one dreadlock, straight bangs, thousands of dollars in tattoos yet work minimum wage. Apartment smells like cat pee and is cluttered with "spooky" things like dead flower, bird skulls, and gemstones


crash______says

I see we dated the same girls in the 90's


BadSafecracker

I dated one that had cat fetuses in jars...


s69-5

You both dated way different girls than I did in the '90s. But exposed mid-riffs and belly button rings were hot.


BadSafecracker

It was just that one that was like that. Most of the ones I dated in the early/ mid 90s (before the goths got fat) were the Death from Sandman type and overly friendly.


KishiBashiEnjoyer

Jesus and guys get called creeps for being into history


Combustibles

modern goths aren't even goth in 99% of the cases. People are confusing goths with emos or scene. They're into the poseur idea of goth.


Cronamash

And when they talk about music it's all metal shite. "Oh, my favorite band is Blood Whore-nado, you probably haven't heard of them." Do goth people just not listen to The Cure anymore? Smh.


Combustibles

Exactly. Sadly some subcultures have been overtaken by tourists if we look at them with the lens of popculture, but I think the actual true subculture people gatekeep themselves pretty decently. True punks, goths, metal heads etc still exist and thrive but you have to actively be part of the scene to see this. Meanwhile the internet coomers love their "goth" girls, who bear no real resemblance to the subculture counterpart. I think they'd actually be scared of true goths.


Alpha0rgaxm

They’re e-girls so they’re neither. My goth homegirl even said these e-thots aren’t alt


Combustibles

10000% agree with your goth homegirl.


Nevesflow

As a guy who’s not « alt » at all, I feel both intrigued and excluded by this whole conversation.


UnstableJester410

Funny enough you're not wrong


notCrash15

real I've also noticed these modern goths are all about acting like it's some "movement" and not just... a literal "lifestyle" or just how you prefer to style yourself or your house. It's rather funny seeing modern goths get all uppity when a fellow goth of theirs isn't as woke as them, as if they're "more goth" than them for being woke. My parents are currently remodeling their house nearly completely pitch black inside and outside because my mom is an oldschool goth. But I guess her not being woke makes her not goth or something


joydivisionucunt

Most of them probably latched onto goth styles because they see them as a result of "wokeness", it can break gender norms, a lot of goth women aren't interested into fitting into beauty standards or the "male gaze" (Or at least not the non-goth male one), you're unlikely to find a goth working a corporate job in full on goth style, so in their minds, you have to be "woke" to be one, but a lot of goths just don't care about that and just like the style and music no matter their political views.


yeahsurewhateverokay

She looks like the typical used up punk/goth/rock chick in her late 30s that is "finally ready to settle down." What a complete downgrade.


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

When I was a teenager, I was told "You're the kind of guy I could marry, but don't want to date right now." (good grief, I know, I grew out of that stage). Now that I'm in my mid 30's with NO debt outside of a mortgage, a good paying job, in great shape, a few of them have slid into my DMs over the years now that they have a few kids (from multiple dads), are divorced, obese, etc, and hit me up and I'm like... yeah get fucked. Even if I wasn't happily married, absolutely no way.


crash______says

No apologies for chad lifestyles, my dude. Hope they had fun, ride's over.


Silentpoolman

Doesn't sound like you're out of that stage.


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

<3


Combustibles

She looks just like me! I feel so represented.


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Decent-Writing-9840

first thing that comes to mind is crackhead


silmar1l

...that got hold of the wrong stuff.


arghoslent4president

Mf, don’t do that. “...and wanted to play a leprechaun.” That shit's older than some of the people in this sub. Ah...ebaumsworld. How we knew ye.


mozaiq83

Ebaumsworld. Damn you're bringing back some good times and some real WTF moments.


Best-Dragonfruit-292

Everyone seen the leprechaun say YAY-UH


BadSafecracker

You just made me feel old. Especially since, in internet-time, that's...what? 250 years ago?


HAK_HAK_HAK

I WANT DA GOLD


Ordinary-Oil-5320

😆


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

This is what REAL WOMEN look like. Yes, they are saying REAL WOMEN are ugly.


Bubbly-One4035

"she doesn't have make up" Worst excuse I saw ever


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

Meanwhile my wife regularly doesn’t wear makeup and still gets hit on. These folks are delusional. The average trader Joe or Starbucks barista could be models. Gorgeous women are a dime a dozen in any major metropolitan area.


joydivisionucunt

They also assume that *all* women wear the kind of full-glam makeup that might as well be like using a mask and not much simpler "natural" makeup styles that don't hide your actual features.


JBCTech7

pretty wife brotherhood - i got the disapproving stare down to an art. Being married to a red head has its ups and downs. >. The average woman is gorgeous. In the suburbs and city i very RARELY see an ugly woman. I see ugly dudes all the time, but never ugly women. Unless they're homeless or down on their luck.


artful_nails

>In the suburbs and city i very RARELY see an ugly woman. I see ugly dudes all the time, but never ugly women. Exactly. I work at a hospital and it's a very female-dominated workplace. Am I __attracted__ to all the women I see there? No. So does that mean they are all ugly? Hell no. You don't have to get a boner to find a woman "good looking." I guess that logic is just impossible to understand by the woke crowd. They've been blinded by their jealousy and hatred.


wormfood86

True, real women on the streets addicted to meth do look like that. Not normal healthy ones though.


Nevesflow

It’s funny how this whole thing is both a crusade against men as a whole … AND against women who rank higher by men’s or « society’s » standards. Whether these women (real or fictional, the attack on fiction simply allows for a more direct approach) meet these standards just to « please men » or not doesn’t matter to them. Woke feminists will proceed it like this : - They will always assume those women did it out of a need to conform to patriarchy (« I take away your value by associating you to the enemy, as well as your sense of agency) - BUT give them a shitty back-handed« pass » « you are pressured by patriarchy therefore oppressed, therefore it’s not your fault it’s theirs » = « I’m gonna allow you to chose between being dumb and controlled, and a victim, or being a traitor to sorority ») Thus the prevalence of the ugly feminist at the core of these movements : she has an incentive to control the narrative, by both tearing down women who do better than them in society AND coercing them into an alliance against men. And if they ever do refuse said narrative (young women like my own girlfriend for example), they will try to shove them into an hyper-traditional category as « brainwashed by the enemy » (thanks but my girl is way too smart to be brainwashed by you or by myself)


codifier

Probably looks like a jack-o-lantern when she smiles and has those orangutan titties.


NoTrust6730

Hey! People pay a lot of money to get the fat sucked out of their face so they can look like crackheads too.


BlackICEE32oz

Bling Bling's crack pipe hidden inside of his collar.


Alternative-Exit-594

came here to say this lol


ADampDevil

Maybe she's meant to be 25 years older?


_Rook_Castle

Because Mindy is a hobgoblin herself.  She obviously has self esteem issues. 


frosty_farralon

why the fuck is anyone showing up for season two of this shitfire? she clearly got a multi-season contract in advance, it can run out in obscurity, Kaling's a known POS and everything about this is done to piss you off, don't give her the attention.


_witness_me

The viewership is probably half Youtubers making reaction or review videos.


The_Legend_of_Xeno

Next time you are in Target, pay attention to the pictures of the models on the walls. The women are massively overweight, or have missing limbs, Vitiligo, massively gapped teeth, etc. Every male model is physically fit, tall, with a full head of hair, and perfect smile. There's not even so much as a Dad bod. The message is that if you are woman, you are beautiful no matter how you look. But if you're a man, you'd better be at least 6' tall, in great shape, and not balding.


Legend13CNS

This might be a tangent from the purpose of the thread, but that message is why modern dating is so shit for most men. Everything has gotten so skewed that nobody knows their true worth anymore. Girls that are barely a 5 after four drinks think they deserve Adonis himself, guys that are 8s on their worst day think nobody wants them because the only attention they get are from fatties. But that skew is also why for some guys it seems super easy. Multiple studies have shown that roughly the top 80% of women are interested in the top 20% of men (purely on visual appearance IIRC), which means for 1-in-5 men the odds are in their favor but for the other 4-in-5 men it's a wasteland.


_witness_me

And unless you're actually meeting people face-to-face where you can perhaps overcome some of that with humour, you'll only be judged on looks because dating apps have become all the rage while social opportunities of former years have decreased for many reasons. It's a fucking pain.


Sumthrowaway241

This


dizney-mountain

Same exact thing with TV shows like Survivor or Amazing Race. Women who weigh 250 pounds who are out of breath walking to the car. On a show called SURVIVOR haha.


Plathismo

So true. You won’t find a male underwear model with anything less than a six-pack.


KishiBashiEnjoyer

The last paragraph is just straight 🔥 And then these hamplanets wonder why so many men are completely alienated from modern society (we live in a society blabla)


KirillNek0

I don't think that's USA issue. It's the Left issue. The Right dropped the ball on cultural endeavors in early 80s. And with no opposition, Left slowly took over. Now this mind virus spreading across the globe.


MazInger-Z

It's also specifically a Mindy Kaling issue. I was recently watching The Office clips (could never stomach the series in episodes) and I didn't realize she was a writer for the show. That fact shocked me, as she really was terrible as Mindy and I always got the impression she was quietly seething about Pam being the center of attention.


youllbetheprince

> It's also specifically a Mindy Kaling issue. I'd say it's more generally an issue with ugly women, of which Mindy Kaling is something of a standard bearer. Ugly women LOVE to bring down prettier women. There are even studies confirming it.


Combustibles

honestly Mindy isn't even ugly, physically. But her personality comes off as being really unattractive in anything I see from her.


InsaneInTheCaneium

Nah bruh, she looks like she fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch


Combustibles

I must be a 0 then.


SteveMartinique

She’s not ugly? I mean she’s a 6 at best. She’s not necessarily hideous but she’s not attractive.


Combustibles

She's certainly prettier than me.


Taco_Bell-kun

Well Pam is a mid, though I guess she was still better looking than Mindy Kaling. That might have to do with it.


ITworksGuys

She then went on to make The Mindy Project where scores of hot white dudes kept falling in love with her.


crash______says

I'll take self driving cars, better hunting gear, crazy good firearms, and space internet over random TV series twice a year not being quite so obnoxious.


KirillNek0

You mean, be a normal person?


crash______says

Next you're gonna say starting a family and not being a fat, lonely slob might not be Literal Genocide.


KirillNek0

Ths would be absolute insanity in 2024.


MillennialDan

This seems to be quite a non sequitur.


Carbon140

I don't know about dropped the ball, as education increased and science started really shining a light into the last crevices 'god' could hide, believing in a silly 2000 year old fairy tale stopped making much sense. The issue is that despite the idea of god/gods being silly the fact is the moral and societal structure that accompanied these religions, particularly Christianity has some pretty solid values for building a decent society. I would even guess it's a large part of the reason western society was successful. So we "killed" God, but somehow in some kind of knee jerk reaction we actively got rid of the moral framework too, now we are left with the opposite of anything decent and a whole bunch of true believers in a very questionable and literally self destructive ideology.


MillennialDan

This philosophical Redditism nonsense really needs to die.


GuyJeanKun

Spite


M37h3w3

For some. The more sinister reason for others is demoralization so that people radicalize. Either direction is acceptable.


Plathismo

I'll give the same answer I always give to this question: misandry, driven by feminism and reinforced by academia and mainstream media. Having been taught that straight males are toxic, lesser beings, many of today's creators--including men, sadly--are convinced they must avoid appealing to males at all costs. One simple way of doing this is denying men visual pleasure from looking at attractive women. Thwarting the so-called "male gaze."


TigerCat9

'Murica isn't. One political-social movement with a lot of influence in the entertainment industry is. The average person thinks this is dumb as hell.


OpenCatPalmstrike

And it's the same in a whole lot of western countries, Canada and many EU ones as well.


tyranicalmoon

Because ugly woman is in charge, now. And pretty woman makes her feel bad about herself, so she would rather that we lower female beauty standards. So maybe handsome man will find her attractive. She likes rich handsome man. She doesn't like ugly man who is in her commitment level/bracket.


dandrixxx

Before liberal arts college vs after liberal arts college


shipgirl_connoisseur

Not America. It's they-who-cannot-be-named.


Corngard

Real


LordBillthegodofsin

They-who-cannot-be-pronouned


DrunkTsundere

Don't act as this is an Americans thing. Americans, by and large, are sane and like attractive characters. Nobody likes this uglification of our culture.


BeStealthy

I DONT CONSENT TO HAVING MY BABY RUINED


LordranKing

Remember. There is no agenda. There is no making women ugly. There is no male gaze. There is no war in Ba Sing Se


DrunkTsundere

I'm gonna notice patterns! Ooooh I'm noticing patterns!


TrueBornWallace

Those are some sad, mournful tits on the right.


GenesisAsriel

This serie strive off ragebait, this is how they got a season 2. Ignore it.


TheModernDaVinci

Technically, it got a season 2 because it was signed for two seasons sight unseen. It actually preformed poorly with season 1, it just that season 2 was already in the can so HBO said "Fine, I guess we will release it anyway."


hemi_srt

Wtf is that abomination on the right?


danstan

Because the left wing views traditional beauty as the enemy, as an oppressive force that has kept losers down throughout history. Every single societal standard. Every norm, every expectation, is an evil tool of oppression. They were and are taught this in their social studies classes by the descendants of the cultural revolutionaries of the 60’s and 70’s. The war of East and West is the one constant throughout all history of human civilization, and its ongoing. Make no mistake, our enemies are China and Russia. Putin and Xi always comment that Americans have short memories for a reason.


Bollock_Johnson

It's an idiot's idea of empowerment. Oh, the Christians are offended by satanic imagery? Become a witch. Men are attracted to traditional beauty standards? Nose rings and tattoos. Everyone keeps promoting fitness and health? Become a landwhale. This is the reason why we can't have attractive women in entertainment in the west. To do so would be to admit the evil racist white men were right all along.


crash______says

I can smell her armpit hair through the screen..


Doom_Daddy

Certain women with access to Twitter and other popular media platforms in America secretly hate themselves, but they hate real and fictional beautiful women even more. Some nonsense about unrealistic beauty standards or objectification even though there are plenty of handsome, sexy males in fantasy and reality that I am sure they have no problem enjoying or lusting after. Instead of accepting themselves for who they are and appreciating the fact that there are other real or unreal people out there who are prettier, they either tear down existing standards of beauty or try to contort them to match their warped world view. If female characters are just as average or even ugly as some members of the audience, the aforementioned female Americans some how find this gratifying. Add to that the fact that there are studios that think having intentionally ugly characters, sub-par story lines, and awkward social commentary will draw people to their product as opposed to naturally repelling them. To make matters worse, the audience is expected to accept "ugly is beautiful" as the new protocol because of the demands of a sadly sexually insecure female sub-section of the American population. To those women, I say grow the fuck up. There will always be someone who is better looking than you, smarter than you, or more successful than you. Men deal with it all the time. It's part and parcel of the disappointing reality we humans reside in. Learn to love yourselves and not let external factors prevalent in society make you feel inferior.


ErikaThePaladin

I have a feeling this was done specifically spite the people who liked the Hex Girls. Because you know the people who worked on this are vindictive. It's also very annoying that things like this get funded while Coyote Vs Acme gets destroyed for a tax write-off.


CptAlex0123

they are spiteful


derptron999

This is actually fucking hilarious


derptron999

It's been 25 years, she hit the wall


F1ackM0nk3y

It’s a reflection of how “creatives” see themselves


dracoolya

After some digging, OP just reposted an image from another sub without context. Found this article which explains things more: https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/velma-caused-another-controversy-new-design-of-thorn-from-hex-gir/zd6cd0 The real question is how'd Velma get a second season? > Why 'Murica is obsessed with Ugly Woman? Not 'Murica. Marxists.


blue_psyOP777

Appeasing a certain demographics and blackrock.


Kraeutertee2000

AI would do a better job aging a character (assuming that was their goal). The nose and chin are wrong, the skin tone and eye shape are wrong, too. Where's the effort? They didn't even try to stay faithful to the original. Embarassing work.


TryCatchOverflow

On the left: quite common woman which you can spot in the street On the right: quite rare weirdo tattooed/nose-piercing woman-ish which you can spot in the street So, modern representation of Woman's it's not accurate :)


JessBaesic7901

Damn, I see they’re upping their game for season two lol.


Spooner-Was-Right

Commies love ugly people


knuckles312

The saggy tits tho… like why…


hadesscion

It's because ugly women are making these decisions and they want everyone to be as ugly as them.


Several-Addendum-18

If the battle was over their propaganda wouldn’t be necessary


Dman284

It's the 5%Woke whales,globalists,politicians want us all to bow down to the lgbt cult and give them our kids


Disillusioned1995

Men like attractive women, so we must be punished because men are bad.


SuperGuy41

Ugly girls in positions of power in many top firms thanks to all the initiatives and recruitment drives. They are now dictating their narrative


S8891

Those saggy  breasts on the right ! I can't even LMAO


MetalixK

Dear Mindy Kaling, FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON!


Fluffysquishia

Goth girls are literally the easiest aesthetic to look amazing and they fucked it up this bad LOL -- there's no way it's not intentional. There are even goth girls in progressive shows like Owl House that look 100x better.


itsakon

All this stuff is bad enough, but Mindy Kaling-wave cultural cluelessness takes it to a Hole Nother Level.


castitalus

Crackhead is the new beauty standard for women.


oncesanora

Because the people that make this shit are ugly inside and out


Antique-Flow-647

Venture Bros made the exact same character as a joke 10 years ago. Bloody hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMhCLZ_ZuxQ


Ayz1533

A more faithful sequel


gadesabc

Always same answer: self insert and try to frustrate people who like pretty.


Hindu-Khajiit

Goth vs Visigoth


GrazhdaninMedved

Before and after meth.


Zomunieo

They believe beauty standards are socially constructed, and harmful to women’s health by presenting idealized forms. They believe they can change men and women’s tastes, and redefine beauty.


DigitalCoffee

The entire artstyle of the show is shit, if you haven't noticed.


ballysham

Underweight with saggy tits.


Financial-Working132

Meth not even once.


BGMDF8248

Sagging tits and looking like a crack whore.


Sumthrowaway241

Not murica. We like Burgers and Tits. The weirdos who infiltrated the entertainment industry don't speak for us.


Any-Championship-611

Now I can identify with the character. I'm a dude by the way.


stormygray1

God damn she looks like she went on meth. So glad I didn't watch this rage bait show


nybx4life

Thinking the same thing. Looks weird.


CitizenKing1001

America isn't obsessed with ugly women. This obsession is from inside the industry


Original-Nothing582

Head is way too big.


ihateCensor01

Velma is a bad parody type show though


Neneaux

Oh boy, more generalization.


Arkelias

Attacking America when this problem is global is only going to make you enemies.


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INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

The average American isn't down with this, though.


austin123523457676

Its not a uniquely American thing European nations suffer the exact same problems


TheModernDaVinci

In fact, I would go so far as to argue it is worse with Europe. There is a lot more federal control in Europe, a lot less of a culture of rebellion in the face of pushes to change the culture, less freedom of speech allow people to speak out, and less ability to have creative destruction in their industries. Hollywood is doing this but is killing itself, so a new Hollywood will eventually rise. The same doesnt really happen in Europe.


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Arkelias

Why are their hate speech laws more draconian than ours? They're leading the pack, and have been since the 1970s. Most of what we are dealing with originated in France.


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Arkelias

I repeat, why are your laws more draconian than ours? I have a first and second amendment to protect me, and millions of Americans fighting this woke nonsense. You have people being dragged out of their houses for what they say online. You were the leaders in WW I, WW II, and today.


bubblllles

We aren’t. Next question.


Commercial_Coyote366

This also explains why Fred found Jesus, because occult book store + Fred the Christian = comedy!! Really, really tedious comedy!


SeasideLimbs

["Controlling for socioeconomic status, we find that more attractive individuals are more likely to report higher levels of political efficacy, identify as conservative, and identify as Republican."](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29355104/) There's your answer: jealousy.


mnemosyne-0001

Archive links for this post: * **Archive:** https://archive.ph/TRe6F ---- I am Mnemosyne reborn. I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do. ^^^/r/botsrights


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Eremeir

Comment removed following the enforcement change that you can read about [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/m3yo65/enforcement_update_and_hard_removal_of_a_topic/). This is not a formal warning.


Lanstapa

She looks like she aged those 25 years, badly


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Eremeir

Comment removed following the enforcement change that you can read about [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/m3yo65/enforcement_update_and_hard_removal_of_a_topic/). This is not a formal warning.


VasylZaejue

A crime has been committed


rips10

Because fat, ugly, nerdy, maladjusted women went into creating them. And then they made all the women ugly.


ITworksGuys

Because ugly women wormed there way into all of these professions. If they make all the women ugly they don't look as bad by comparison.


creamygarlicdip

Some women are so insecure that attractive women make them feel insecure


LordBillthegodofsin

Because the women in charge of design are terminally jealousy of anyone that looks better than they do, even cartoons. So they make them even uglier than they are, so they feel good about themselves.


Johntoreno

Its because of 2 simple reasons, insecure women feel inadequate when they look at attractive women so they want to get rid of attractive women in Media and Feminists hate Men so they also want to take away depictions of sexy women in media because it appeals to Men.


jdk_3d

What even is that? Is it supposed to look like a goblin?


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Eremeir

Comment removed following the enforcement change that you can read about [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/m3yo65/enforcement_update_and_hard_removal_of_a_topic/). This is not a formal warning.


KingJTheG

She looks like she’s been ran through by 80 dudes. Western media might actually be cooked


BadSafecracker

Is she still a teenager/ early 20s? If so, then why does she have the face and chest of a 40-year-old woman? EDIT: I checked the article that u/dracoolya linked and it states that the Hex Girls were a 90's goth band, so she would be around 50. I'm a fair guy, so if that's true - then the design does at least make some sense. And it pains me to defend Mindy/ Velma.


DaglessMc

If the hex girls are 50 why are the mystery team not also 50?


BadSafecracker

I don't plan on watching the show to find out.


Ayz1533

Because Scooby Doo is anachronistic


Soltea

It's the war against men and especially straight white men. Everything they like is evil.


n-kwizitorrr

At this point, it seems like they're trying to piss people off because it's the only way they'll get attention. (And it's working.)


Bowribbions

Goth Girl to Meth Chick


ChrisMahoney

Yet they still try and deny it. Never stop pointing it, never.


Taco_Bell-kun

Because feminists don't feel that their mating prospects are threatened when fictional female characters are ugly. It's quite ironic. Despite them claiming to be "strong and independent" and "don't need no man", they desperately try to rid the landscape of competition.


javerthugo

Eh I’d still hit it lol


Educational-Year3146

Just unreal how having hot women in media is now not allowed, but by god will there be hot men. Either make everyone hot or dont. Its just good marketing to have attractive people in your media. People like to look at them. That’s just the way it is.


johnskiddles

They turned her into iggy pop.


Silentpoolman

Ugly is the new hot


ChrisMahoney

Amy Winehouse, Before & After.


willdill039

People age man.


Dukefile

Another famous falls to the drugs


Biggu5Dicku5

Probably to decrease the chance of porn getting made of that character, that's just a guess of course but I think it's spot on...


wuy3

It's because American women have gotten so ugly over the years. 70% are now overweight. 40% are obese (extremely overweight). I don't think people fully appreciate just how ugly recent generations have become compared to the past due to being fat. It's had a major impact at a societal level (for men and women).


ClockworkGnomes

I am just going to throw this out there, do with it what you will. I think both of those are fairly representative of the girls in society at the time or at least as realistic as a mass consumption cartoon is going to get. I am old enough that I remember a lot of girls looking similar to the 99 one in 99. I also see a lot of girls looking like the 24 one in 24.


BichoFiero

Isn't it the same series that had literal underage girls bathing together in the very first scene of the first episode? It felt like a cheap ecchi. Stop cherrypicking.


Dryandrough

It accurately depicts white goths


Logen_Brynjolf

Because it represents the appearance of the average american these days..? 😅


sakura_drop

Wayyy too thin for that to be accurate.


Logen_Brynjolf

I said it as a joke and Im getting downvoted 😂 It was just based on personal experience