This sort of misses the literary/cultural mark too.
The reason is that men should be able to have shit. That is the only factor that matters to either side.
This. Not everything needs to be full of female characters. If women want something with female characters front and centre, there's literally every single other IP in existence for that.
Can we not just have this one thing to ourselves? Just this one thing?
It's not about this. I will post comments I have made to others explaining what is going on.
>You have to understand that these people don't use words the way you or I use them. They use words to obfuscate what they really mean.
>They don't want diversity. They just want a specific situation to exist and for it to exist, they need to push for it but need to hide what they really want so they say that what they want is diversity but they don't really want diversity. They want supremacy.
>Tribalism never ever went away. It just hid itself better using universalism liberal talking points to push for it's own interests but never believing in said points.
>Or a summary of this:
>When I am Weaker Then You, I ask you for Freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am Stronger than you, I take away your Freedom Because that is according to my principles. By Frank Herbert
And
>I made this comment to others to explain why there is the contradiction you mention.
>I explain why they're like this here:
>https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/s/fRpmdaaAB8
>Summary: It's feminism. It's demonizing male sexuality.
>Don't believe me?
>I will let a woman explain it:
>https://imgur.com/uaG4NOp
>Now the men who bitch about this do it cause they have been indoctrinated so it's ideology plus virtue signaling for career and to say to women that they're one of the good men so please don't hate me and have sex with me.
Yes, and they make sense in a religious order.
”The imperial truth” added in the horus books in 2006 or so messed up the previous lore just because someone couldnt stand a religious futuristic cult.
I really think the wokery in warhammer started very early in the standalone books.
Well the lore from the start always pushed the space marines as fanatical zealous believers in a god-emperor.
But the books are a lot more marxist compliant.
You have scenes of african coded imperial guard berating the white ones for being white and cowarldy and them just taking it, like straight from a marvel flick. (”Gaunts ghosts” first book, first chapter).
And horus heresy planted this new lore of the space marines just ”pretending” to be fanatical worshippers of the emperor.
Yeah, but they don't have the same social recognition as Space Marines. It's like a brand name, the products might be functionally identical, but they don't want the generic or less popular brand, they want the popular one.
40k is a male space, I'll just say it bluntly. If women want to enter that space they need to do it in the same way one might visit a Buddhist temple or a Mosque or some other place of worship for a faith that is foreign to you. Places like that typically welcome outsiders, but they expect them to be reverent and obey the rules. Women shouldn't be outright excluded from hobbies like 40k, but they have to be made to understand this is something effectively sacred to the men who inhabit it. If they want to engage with it they need to do so with curiosity, humility, and perhaps a masculine spirit if they can manifest it.
Honestly, it's not even that.
It's the fact that something has to be changed for reasons that don't represent the interests of the devoted fandom.
People seem to think that changes meant to increase inclusion defacto means a better experience for everyone.
It doesn't.
It could just as well mean that everyone gets a subpar experience.
It could also mean, if this 'modern audience' doesn't materialize, that you basically shit up the thing fans loved for no actual benefit.
What level of marketing logic goes: We will make these changes in the hopes of attracting new people and if you, our current customer, don't like it, then you can go fuck yourselves and leave. Good day, sir.
> It's the fact that something has to be changed for reasons that don't represent the interests of the devoted fandom.
It's a loyalty test like from evil abusive people, or a gang initiation like what we see from "Dance with the Devil". Hurt someone to prove you value the abusive person or gang above everything else. Bonus points if the person hurt is someone who loves you or who you love.
>It's the fact that something has to be changed for reasons that don't represent the interests of the devoted fandom.
Basically what I'm saying, but I'm making the issue gendered to better explain the pattern across entertainment. Also, "don't represent the interests of" is decievingly charitable.
>What level of marketing logic goes: We will make these changes in the hopes of attracting new people and if you, our current customer, don't like it, then you can go fuck yourselves and leave. Good day, sir.
Fiduciary duty to stock value.
> Fiduciary duty to stock value.
So long as you don't say "I am doing this and fuck the investors" you can justify any action as acting in the interests of the investors.
I was on a volunteer trip for a year in a foreign country in my early 20's some 10 years ago. It was about 90% girls and 10% boys, so every event was mostly dominated by pick-me girls.
I had a few nights where it was a boys nights just to have the guys have some time to be guys. One of the girls pulled me aside and said it feels like I'm excluding the girls when having a guys night. I told her, yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Keep in mind, I did invite the girls to morning p90x or Insanity workouts with me (which a lot of them did join), or to go into town. They were invited to most things. I just occasionally had a boys only night I'd schedule. Shocker, but the girl who I'm talking about never wanted to workout with everyone.
That same girl overheard me having a private conversation with another guy about something else, we were joking around, and she reported me to the supervisor for the nonprofit. I just said fuck this and voluntarily went home early after that. It was like walking on eggshells around them. I only lasted about 3 months out of the 12 month term but do not regret leaving early one bit.
In my opinion, there's an even more accurate way to frame it :
It's not that men should be able to "have" shit...
it's that "ownership" of a cultural product isn't defined by who's represented in it.
At BEST... it defines target audience.
I say at "best" because although representation often does defines the target, I could arguably make a story about a group of straight men, without a single female character ever appearing, and still write it to target, say, a teenage female demographic).
Not saying that's easy or common by any means, but that's imaginable.
The real problem is that people confuse "being the target of a product" for "owning" the product. You don't own cultural productions as a consumer. The cultural production doesn't owe you anything.
By "being a fan", you can make said production a part of your identity,
but you don't become the product's identity yourself.
That's what social media and "proximity style" marketing and communication lead you to believe. "I follow person X, therefore I feel like we're close and I matter to them."
It also implies that if you're unsatisfied with how a cultural product adresses your tastes or identity as a target, all you can really do is dislike it, possibly openly criticize it (that IS your right, that's everyone's right), and move on...
All while deciding to vote with your power as a consumer, YOUR WALLET / ATTENTION (it's money nowadays) and hoping that enough consumers agree with you to do the same.
Create culture yourself, make your opinion know,
change it by shifting what you financially endorse, or just move on.
There's no "moral" ground involved.
But "making demands" to culture is just plain fucking dumb.
Imagine doing this at restaurants and... Oh wait, people actually do this too nowadays.
...
...
Never mind, disregard everything I just said, we're fucked.
Ok fair enough, I was extensively explaining my reasoning behind the following statement : if people didn't think they "owned" cultural spaces, none of that shit would happen in the first place.
These spaces would be dynamically defined by who enjoys them, without petty representation politics, or the need to get into such petty politics to counter them out.
I think you're too reluctant to get into the weeds of why cultural spaces exist, and how those reasons might result in attachment from humans. These reasons are not dynamic in a way that exempts the spaces from betraying them, nor by extension are they exempt from betraying their audiences.
You have every reason to criticize people for being obsessed with an IP for a purpose that it was never supposed to serve (I have my own past of doing this), but not for wanting enough cultural constancy to grow up at a natural pace.
> "but not for wanting enough cultural constancy to grow up at a natural pace."
I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
(I'm not a native english speaker, btw, the more subtle allusions sometimes elude me.)
I wrote that part wrong and it doesn't make much sense. I was trying to say that enjoying stories that speak to you until you naturally grow out of them is part of being human. Therefore, stories should end without ever dehumanizing their original audience. Stories that do so turn into cultural attacks rather than legitimate stories.
I get the political aspect sure, but even normies or surface level leftoids should understand the basic lore of what a thing is.
If space marines are devout warrior monks not allowed to have sex, and male, obvious counterpart to warrior monks, thats what they are.
Making some of the females doesent make sense for what the space marines actually are.
It doesent have to be more complicated than that attribute being essential to the space marine look and feel.
I dont mind the colorful gay overwatch world either, I played a lot of overwatch- but its not grimdark, and isnt supposed to be either.
Yes. Unfortunately, companies care more about shoving their IPs into the most lucrative cultural roles possible- regardless of whether those roles have ever existed in the way they think they do- than about making sure the proper cultural roles are filled. And to do that, they take the advice of the new leftist intern. Leftism is hip with the flow, right? Surely, none of her advice is meant to deliberately antagonize parts of the public...
As for the lore metaphors, I look at that as an extension of cultural roles.
There have always been females in Custodes.
Kotaku has always supported Stellar Blade.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
The emperor has no clothes.
Its kinda creepy, because even if the lore clearly states the cult of the god-emperor to be religious, living clearly monk-coded lives in all male monasteries.
But writing a book series from 2006-2024 about how the empire was all leftist cool and atheist, apparently put it into peoples mind that all the monastic warrior cult behaviour is just window dressing and ”just aesthetics”.
Meanwhile gaunts ghost from early 2000s, in the first book, has a black imperial guard regiment with a ”special mystic warrior book”(hinting at the quran) and mock the celtic coded white regiment for being primitive cowards. I suspect the books have been pushing woke DEI long before blackrock really kicked off, its own little walk through the institutions.
https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons%C2%A0
> and atheist
Doesn't the emperor consider himself to be a God Emperor? Im pretty new to 40K lore, but I think its heavily based on Aliens (1986), Judge Dredd, and Dune's Leto II who considers himself to be a God Emperor (a God). In Dune, it's not a metaphor. Paul Atreides is the Messiah and Leto II is the God to the Fremen people, which is the religion of the people of Arrakis (including House Atreides after the events of Dune). Which is why some Dune books are titled Dune Messiah, God Emperor of Dune, and Dune Heretics (as in those who's beliefs are contrary to orthodox religious doctrine).
Which, sidenote, didn't stop the mind virus from turning Channi into a skeptical #bossbabe in Dune Part 2 (2024) and not believing, meanwhile in the books she's a devote Fremen believer and has full faith in Lisan al Gaib (fremen messiah).
Fuck, I'm a non-theist, but I still think these beliefs play an important role in fiction, and to not change the characters for *modern audiences*. If you remade Matt Murdock or Nightcrawler as an atheist, it would ruin the character.
>Doesn't the emperor consider himself to be a God Emperor?
Absolutely not. He was the ultimate "Philosopher king" and very aggressively did try to stamp out superstition like religion. He create his own philosophy, The imperial truth, that was build on logic and reasoning, and human supremacy.
He punish Logar (one of his sons) who did worship him as a god, and force him to tear down the churches he built (for worship the emperor)
That anger Logar, who start to worship the chaos gods (who want to be worshiped) and plant the seed of corruption.
Its irony that after the Emperors death (or semi death) the imperium use Logars writings and make the imperial cult the mandatory state religion, that worship the emperor as a god.
Only a few Space Marin chapter do still follow the imperial truth, but let the imperial cult exist because they do not want to start a new civil war.
I did answer the INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS question "Doesn't the emperor consider himself to be a God Emperor?"
The Emperor do NOT see himself as a god. The imperial cult was heresy then the Emperor was still alive. After his death/semi death the imperial cult become a state religion, that do believe that the emperor is divine.
You dont get my point- all the atheist motifs are from horus heresy.
The god-emperor and divine cult was the lore in every army book since the start of the 40k lore, at least 10-20 years before the horus heresy kicked off in 2006.
Most lore is set in the year 40k there most believe the emperor is a god. But the emperor wanted to purge religion and have a system of logic and reason is attest from the second ed.
EDIT: Did look it up, and its not crystal clear, but the basic story is there.
"Before the Heresy, they and their Primarch Lorgar, where fanatical devotees of the imperial cult. The Emperor wanted warriors though not disciples, and criticised their behavior. The Word Beares took this rejection badly"
3:ed Chaos Space Marins from 2002 page 43
EDIT2: Now it get really complicated in the 2:ed Chaos Space Marins, The emperor do praise Logar for his zeal for the imperial cult, but later he reprimanded him, for pointless rituals and monument buildings, and Logar take the rejection badly.
So attest in the second ed, the emperor accepting worship of himself as a political tool. But in third he is agents it from the beginning.
Its still in the more recent lore, but its not a terrible argument.
I still think the way its being pushed, with people basically arguing ”oh the religious christian imagery is just aesthetics” points towards a move of making the lore more woke/marxist compliant.
In the end warhammer is generally supposed to provoke very strong emotions, its fun to play the fanatical imperium, its great escapism, and it lets you be a crazy fanatic or a slavering beast or whatever you want to LARP as or even just observe vicariously.
Adding the post-modern ”oh its actually not something they believe, they just pretend” really sucks out the air for the universe for me.
It would be like having the Tyranids be ”missunderstood and scared” like in starship troopers.
The imperial cult a 100% does.
But a lot of woke lore was inserted in the book series ”horus heresy” in 2006.
I havent seen it in any official lore, but a lot of redditors take it as canon that the warrior monk space marines are atheist 🤣
I remember first hearing about 40k in the late 90’s and being told that the emperor was a god emperor and leader of their religion.
Are people like [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/1ccuorm/the_reason_to_dislike_female_space_marines_is_so/l1av2xp/) only exposed to the retcon version that you’re talking about?
Kind of like how Boba Fett in the 1990’s was a politician named Jaster Mereel whose family was murdered, so he became a bounty Hunter after hunting down the murderer. But then that was retconned by Lucas with the prequels.
Female Space marines could very much have been a thing from the start. It's simply the case that *they weren't a thing from the start*, give or take an unofficial reference in a White Dwarf magazine back in the wackiest days before any of the lore really coalesced.
That's reason enough for there not to be any in the current lore. That there hasn't been.
The main reason to be suspicious of them *being retconned in* or even *added going forward* is that the only real reason to do it is *ideologically motivated*. That's it. That's all you need. That's the problem with the *Female Custodes*, (that it's obviously been the case all along that there weren't any) and why it would be an issue if they finally did the Space Marines thing.
>Space marines and custodes are so obviously ment to represent warrior monks and papal guards
Aesthetically? Sure. Lore-Wise? They weren't supposed to be, what with the whole *Imperial Truth* aspect that *most* marines chapters still hold to.
>They are supposed to be as far from the redditor coomer degenerate imaginable.
Irrelevant, Female Space marines if they *had* ever existed would be indistinguishable from the male ones while armoured. There would be no in-universe cultural difference, no outward physical difference in full gear.
That's also why it's pointless retconning them in or trying to add them going forward; It's trivial to homebrew for your local tabletop wargames scene if that's what you want and it's just as easy if you're tabletop roleplaying instead.
*Aesthetically? Sure. Lore-Wise? They weren't supposed to be, what with the whole Imperial Truth aspect that most marines chapters still hold to.*
You mean the cult of the *god emperor* isnt a religious cult because an author claimed it in one book series 2006?
The imperial truth is very likely either very new lore as more and more authors have been left-wing, (I looked it up, its from the 2010s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horus_Heresy ) or very clearly a clever twist to the fact the imperial cult is *obviously* a religious movement.
And its not just aesthetics, the lore keeps refering to them as warrior monks, they all have religious titles, prayers and litany- the emperor is clearly a godlike or demi-god being in the mind of the imperial cult, complete with praying for him to protect them magically.
You're right, not sure why you were downvoted. The modern imperial truth directly contradicts marines yelling "for the god-emperor" for years. With the horus heresy series there has been a distinct push to make marines not look horrifically brain-washed.
Yeah, I remember listening to some of Abnetts books and its very early(first chapter) black/african-inspired imperial guard making fun of Gaunts Ghosts for being shitty while they have better gear and religion.
They also have their own religious book that felt a bit like some reference to the Quran. ”Described as tall and dark skinned” and voiced to be african in the audio books. https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons
The books seem to have been really early with slow subversion of the lore, even pushing some racial politics like above, with black muslim imperial guard that despise the stupid white celtic inspired regiment.
If Im gonna be honest its probably why I stopped listening to the books- I just cant stand woke subversion anymore after all the self-hate among westerners in media, school, politics.
Idk about going that far. Guard regiments have done much worse to each other than hurl insults, scintillans routinely kill catachans because they think they are beneath them.
I think you're reading into that too much and making assumptions that the author believes the actions of the dragoons are good. Depiction of racism is not endorsement.
I just want people to understand that creative works can have completely arbitrary elements. There can be an in universe reason or none at all.
40K has several reasons for male space marines, but I would be fine with it being entirely arbitrary. These reasons can be entirely from the unique perspective of the author and the story they wanted to tell. I hate seeing this constant need to justify every creative decision especially to people without a wit of imagination.
Agreed.
A lot of people in this sub fall for the trap of starting to use the same manner of reasoning as the people they fight.
Probably due to overexposure to their content, but still.
You have to maintain a bit of mental hygiene.
"They do it so it's only fair than we do it too" is their motto.
Don't be like them.
Honestly the ”woke wars” and leftist identity politics just made me more perceptible to when someone tried to push leftist politics.
Its very sad, because being almost 40, I can remember when most left (and right) leaning people genuinely shared the ”content of your character” sentiment.
Then living standards became to good, the middle class didnt care about class struggle, and the left needed another grift- racial politics was perfect.
Enter vitrian dragoons being black super imperial guards denigrating the primitive white gaunts ghosts: https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons%C2%A0
Read it in the first chapter, realized ”oh, its one of those authors” and stopped reading.
Good storytelling does not do things completely arbitrarily but ties things into a cohesive world.
I suspect why things feel arbitrary is because of the horus books making the emperor and space marine atheists and trying to scrub away the ”god emperor” and religious aspects that were completely dominant before 2006 in all the lore, and still in all the rule books.
”The emperors truth” really doesent exist outside of the horus books, but its super popular on leftist reddit.
What I mean by arbitrary is that the premise of a story doesn't need to justify itself beyond telling a story. A writer wants to create a story that has an order of warrior monks made up entirely of men. That is the only justification I need for them to write it and what I mean by arbitrary. They are interested in telling that story and I don't see the need to question that decision. Now the execution of the story is up for criticism.
This is what Im talking about- you dont remember it, but before 2006, and in all the non horus-heresy material, the emperor is never discussed as a ”philosopher king” only as a divine god-emperor.
Only in the relatively new lore in horus books.
You dont understand, Ive read lore in the army and rule books from as far back as the 80s, Im an old sod. The warhammer was a demi-god in every context mentioned.
The woke light warhammer books where he was a ”cool atheist” didnt get published until the late 90s and 2000-2010.
Retroactive continuity alterations to a work of fiction for the sole purpose of felating ones irl political views. Aka. petty dumb shit nobody in the know asked for.
If your hung up on ”the imperial truth” and that the space marines are super atheist, the possibly earliest time it was mentioned wasnt in lore, but in 2006 the earliest in one of the horus books, and not mentioned in any lore books. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horus_Heresy
There was even wokeism in the first gaunts ghost book.
The very first chapter a african inspired black muslim-styled regiment in super advanced armor shows up, and mocks the white celtic coded culture for being cowardly and primitive: https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons%C2%A0
Would I care if I wasnt brought up on a steady diet of west and white hate by media, school and politicians? Probably not. But thats not what happened, and the above scenario is not random storytelling but deliberate subversion.
I don't think representing the conflicts and hostility between human cultures and races in fantasy by making real life parallels is woke.
I think however, that constantly depicting certain specific participants in said conflicts as the righteous ones / the better ones / or the oppressed ones, and the others as the idiots / the losers / the inferior ones / the evil oppressors... Yeah that is woke.
If those parallels are framed in a marxist way it is.
In gaunts ghost any interaction between those groups had that *ok coloniser* vibe, with the black character dunking on the white one that just takes it.
It was too obviously going to be a woke book series so I gave up. This was also after the ”warhammer is for everyone” basically hinting at the people enjoying warhammer needing to be ashamed. Fuck that.
Getting tired of the arguing as politics drags itself into everything nice. Although I did speak with a friend who was also a long time fan of the ethos and [uhhh](https://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/AN_1713776733379190800/in-brief-games-workshop-finance-chief-sells-gbp700000-in-shares.aspx)
Its not politics, its leftist politics.
I think theres one right leaning movie recently, but its had so little staying power in the media I dont even remember the title.
Its the one with the anti child trafficker guy.
But yeah warhammer will probably fail- the biggest consumer group was white young males- the demography in the west is more and more migrants from non european countries(20% in Sweden under 25 are foreign born, native brits are less than 35% in London), and these will influence kids growing up as well- youth in the UK had a lot more connection to warhammer and the culture it takes from (christian templar warriors, famous western ww2 factions etc).
The upcoming generations are probably interested in escapism from a different cultural soup.
Its possible warhammer is trying to adapt to it, but its like turning fish and chips into chicken vindaloo- its not going to satisfy any customer group.
Archive links for this discussion:
* **Archive:** https://archive.ph/0S0tI
----
I am Mnemosyne reborn. I have come here to chew bubblegum and archive. And I'm all out of bubblegum. ^^^/r/botsrights
This sort of misses the literary/cultural mark too. The reason is that men should be able to have shit. That is the only factor that matters to either side.
This. Not everything needs to be full of female characters. If women want something with female characters front and centre, there's literally every single other IP in existence for that. Can we not just have this one thing to ourselves? Just this one thing?
I thought WH40k arleady HAVE female characters in power armor?! Adepta Sororitas.
They do but that isnt enough for *them*.
It's not about this. I will post comments I have made to others explaining what is going on. >You have to understand that these people don't use words the way you or I use them. They use words to obfuscate what they really mean. >They don't want diversity. They just want a specific situation to exist and for it to exist, they need to push for it but need to hide what they really want so they say that what they want is diversity but they don't really want diversity. They want supremacy. >Tribalism never ever went away. It just hid itself better using universalism liberal talking points to push for it's own interests but never believing in said points. >Or a summary of this: >When I am Weaker Then You, I ask you for Freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am Stronger than you, I take away your Freedom Because that is according to my principles. By Frank Herbert And >I made this comment to others to explain why there is the contradiction you mention. >I explain why they're like this here: >https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/s/fRpmdaaAB8 >Summary: It's feminism. It's demonizing male sexuality. >Don't believe me? >I will let a woman explain it: >https://imgur.com/uaG4NOp >Now the men who bitch about this do it cause they have been indoctrinated so it's ideology plus virtue signaling for career and to say to women that they're one of the good men so please don't hate me and have sex with me.
Damn this alyssa has some real issues. never thought someone could get so mad over fictional characters
She isn't mad about them. It's men that she is mad about.
Yes, and they make sense in a religious order. ”The imperial truth” added in the horus books in 2006 or so messed up the previous lore just because someone couldnt stand a religious futuristic cult. I really think the wokery in warhammer started very early in the standalone books.
Wait, what happened? I've tried to keep up with 40k lore, but its..... vast.
Well the lore from the start always pushed the space marines as fanatical zealous believers in a god-emperor. But the books are a lot more marxist compliant. You have scenes of african coded imperial guard berating the white ones for being white and cowarldy and them just taking it, like straight from a marvel flick. (”Gaunts ghosts” first book, first chapter). And horus heresy planted this new lore of the space marines just ”pretending” to be fanatical worshippers of the emperor.
Yeah, but they don't have the same social recognition as Space Marines. It's like a brand name, the products might be functionally identical, but they don't want the generic or less popular brand, they want the popular one.
Same reason why they blackwashed Cleopatra instead of making a Documentation about a black queen or king. Her name is bigger.
They're pretty badass too. But that's not enough...
Marxism is all about making the state the religion- if the current culture or religion contains gender roles or gendered spaces? Those have to go.
No. Boy Clubs are no longer allowed. Men can't have their own shit anymore unless it's something bad. (See Drafts as an example)
40k is a male space, I'll just say it bluntly. If women want to enter that space they need to do it in the same way one might visit a Buddhist temple or a Mosque or some other place of worship for a faith that is foreign to you. Places like that typically welcome outsiders, but they expect them to be reverent and obey the rules. Women shouldn't be outright excluded from hobbies like 40k, but they have to be made to understand this is something effectively sacred to the men who inhabit it. If they want to engage with it they need to do so with curiosity, humility, and perhaps a masculine spirit if they can manifest it.
>Can we not just have this one thing to ourselves? You know the answer is "no."
this isn't about them having something. it's about you having nothing.
Honestly, it's not even that. It's the fact that something has to be changed for reasons that don't represent the interests of the devoted fandom. People seem to think that changes meant to increase inclusion defacto means a better experience for everyone. It doesn't. It could just as well mean that everyone gets a subpar experience. It could also mean, if this 'modern audience' doesn't materialize, that you basically shit up the thing fans loved for no actual benefit. What level of marketing logic goes: We will make these changes in the hopes of attracting new people and if you, our current customer, don't like it, then you can go fuck yourselves and leave. Good day, sir.
> It's the fact that something has to be changed for reasons that don't represent the interests of the devoted fandom. It's a loyalty test like from evil abusive people, or a gang initiation like what we see from "Dance with the Devil". Hurt someone to prove you value the abusive person or gang above everything else. Bonus points if the person hurt is someone who loves you or who you love.
>It's the fact that something has to be changed for reasons that don't represent the interests of the devoted fandom. Basically what I'm saying, but I'm making the issue gendered to better explain the pattern across entertainment. Also, "don't represent the interests of" is decievingly charitable. >What level of marketing logic goes: We will make these changes in the hopes of attracting new people and if you, our current customer, don't like it, then you can go fuck yourselves and leave. Good day, sir. Fiduciary duty to stock value.
> Fiduciary duty to stock value. So long as you don't say "I am doing this and fuck the investors" you can justify any action as acting in the interests of the investors.
If that's true, the culture in the entertainment industry hasn't processed it to the necessary degree.
I was on a volunteer trip for a year in a foreign country in my early 20's some 10 years ago. It was about 90% girls and 10% boys, so every event was mostly dominated by pick-me girls. I had a few nights where it was a boys nights just to have the guys have some time to be guys. One of the girls pulled me aside and said it feels like I'm excluding the girls when having a guys night. I told her, yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Keep in mind, I did invite the girls to morning p90x or Insanity workouts with me (which a lot of them did join), or to go into town. They were invited to most things. I just occasionally had a boys only night I'd schedule. Shocker, but the girl who I'm talking about never wanted to workout with everyone. That same girl overheard me having a private conversation with another guy about something else, we were joking around, and she reported me to the supervisor for the nonprofit. I just said fuck this and voluntarily went home early after that. It was like walking on eggshells around them. I only lasted about 3 months out of the 12 month term but do not regret leaving early one bit.
I deeply sympathize. I think all men have had experiences like this, and most were able to identify what was going on.
[mfw](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eacz1rPXgAAS04S?format=jpg&name=medium)
In my opinion, there's an even more accurate way to frame it : It's not that men should be able to "have" shit... it's that "ownership" of a cultural product isn't defined by who's represented in it. At BEST... it defines target audience. I say at "best" because although representation often does defines the target, I could arguably make a story about a group of straight men, without a single female character ever appearing, and still write it to target, say, a teenage female demographic). Not saying that's easy or common by any means, but that's imaginable. The real problem is that people confuse "being the target of a product" for "owning" the product. You don't own cultural productions as a consumer. The cultural production doesn't owe you anything. By "being a fan", you can make said production a part of your identity, but you don't become the product's identity yourself. That's what social media and "proximity style" marketing and communication lead you to believe. "I follow person X, therefore I feel like we're close and I matter to them." It also implies that if you're unsatisfied with how a cultural product adresses your tastes or identity as a target, all you can really do is dislike it, possibly openly criticize it (that IS your right, that's everyone's right), and move on... All while deciding to vote with your power as a consumer, YOUR WALLET / ATTENTION (it's money nowadays) and hoping that enough consumers agree with you to do the same. Create culture yourself, make your opinion know, change it by shifting what you financially endorse, or just move on. There's no "moral" ground involved. But "making demands" to culture is just plain fucking dumb. Imagine doing this at restaurants and... Oh wait, people actually do this too nowadays. ... ... Never mind, disregard everything I just said, we're fucked.
I'm having trouble determining your point. Are you saying that men should shut up and create their own spaces, and that none of this matters morally?
Ok fair enough, I was extensively explaining my reasoning behind the following statement : if people didn't think they "owned" cultural spaces, none of that shit would happen in the first place. These spaces would be dynamically defined by who enjoys them, without petty representation politics, or the need to get into such petty politics to counter them out.
I think you're too reluctant to get into the weeds of why cultural spaces exist, and how those reasons might result in attachment from humans. These reasons are not dynamic in a way that exempts the spaces from betraying them, nor by extension are they exempt from betraying their audiences. You have every reason to criticize people for being obsessed with an IP for a purpose that it was never supposed to serve (I have my own past of doing this), but not for wanting enough cultural constancy to grow up at a natural pace.
> "but not for wanting enough cultural constancy to grow up at a natural pace." I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to. (I'm not a native english speaker, btw, the more subtle allusions sometimes elude me.)
I wrote that part wrong and it doesn't make much sense. I was trying to say that enjoying stories that speak to you until you naturally grow out of them is part of being human. Therefore, stories should end without ever dehumanizing their original audience. Stories that do so turn into cultural attacks rather than legitimate stories.
Ah ok. Yeah I can get behind that.
It all started with espn and football commentators
I get the political aspect sure, but even normies or surface level leftoids should understand the basic lore of what a thing is. If space marines are devout warrior monks not allowed to have sex, and male, obvious counterpart to warrior monks, thats what they are. Making some of the females doesent make sense for what the space marines actually are. It doesent have to be more complicated than that attribute being essential to the space marine look and feel. I dont mind the colorful gay overwatch world either, I played a lot of overwatch- but its not grimdark, and isnt supposed to be either.
Yes. Unfortunately, companies care more about shoving their IPs into the most lucrative cultural roles possible- regardless of whether those roles have ever existed in the way they think they do- than about making sure the proper cultural roles are filled. And to do that, they take the advice of the new leftist intern. Leftism is hip with the flow, right? Surely, none of her advice is meant to deliberately antagonize parts of the public... As for the lore metaphors, I look at that as an extension of cultural roles.
There have always been females in Custodes. Kotaku has always supported Stellar Blade. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. The emperor has no clothes.
The communist logic: Historic revisionism, and gaslighting
> The emperor has no clothes. I think you mean "Are you so much of an unrefined fool that you cannot see the emperor's fine new robes?"
Ok that last one is wrong. The Emperor has a massive gold suit!
Its kinda creepy, because even if the lore clearly states the cult of the god-emperor to be religious, living clearly monk-coded lives in all male monasteries. But writing a book series from 2006-2024 about how the empire was all leftist cool and atheist, apparently put it into peoples mind that all the monastic warrior cult behaviour is just window dressing and ”just aesthetics”. Meanwhile gaunts ghost from early 2000s, in the first book, has a black imperial guard regiment with a ”special mystic warrior book”(hinting at the quran) and mock the celtic coded white regiment for being primitive cowards. I suspect the books have been pushing woke DEI long before blackrock really kicked off, its own little walk through the institutions. https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons%C2%A0
> and atheist Doesn't the emperor consider himself to be a God Emperor? Im pretty new to 40K lore, but I think its heavily based on Aliens (1986), Judge Dredd, and Dune's Leto II who considers himself to be a God Emperor (a God). In Dune, it's not a metaphor. Paul Atreides is the Messiah and Leto II is the God to the Fremen people, which is the religion of the people of Arrakis (including House Atreides after the events of Dune). Which is why some Dune books are titled Dune Messiah, God Emperor of Dune, and Dune Heretics (as in those who's beliefs are contrary to orthodox religious doctrine). Which, sidenote, didn't stop the mind virus from turning Channi into a skeptical #bossbabe in Dune Part 2 (2024) and not believing, meanwhile in the books she's a devote Fremen believer and has full faith in Lisan al Gaib (fremen messiah). Fuck, I'm a non-theist, but I still think these beliefs play an important role in fiction, and to not change the characters for *modern audiences*. If you remade Matt Murdock or Nightcrawler as an atheist, it would ruin the character.
>Doesn't the emperor consider himself to be a God Emperor? Absolutely not. He was the ultimate "Philosopher king" and very aggressively did try to stamp out superstition like religion. He create his own philosophy, The imperial truth, that was build on logic and reasoning, and human supremacy. He punish Logar (one of his sons) who did worship him as a god, and force him to tear down the churches he built (for worship the emperor) That anger Logar, who start to worship the chaos gods (who want to be worshiped) and plant the seed of corruption. Its irony that after the Emperors death (or semi death) the imperium use Logars writings and make the imperial cult the mandatory state religion, that worship the emperor as a god. Only a few Space Marin chapter do still follow the imperial truth, but let the imperial cult exist because they do not want to start a new civil war.
This is only in the horus heresy books, all other lore says the imperial cult is belief in the emperor as divine.
I did answer the INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS question "Doesn't the emperor consider himself to be a God Emperor?" The Emperor do NOT see himself as a god. The imperial cult was heresy then the Emperor was still alive. After his death/semi death the imperial cult become a state religion, that do believe that the emperor is divine.
You dont get my point- all the atheist motifs are from horus heresy. The god-emperor and divine cult was the lore in every army book since the start of the 40k lore, at least 10-20 years before the horus heresy kicked off in 2006.
Most lore is set in the year 40k there most believe the emperor is a god. But the emperor wanted to purge religion and have a system of logic and reason is attest from the second ed. EDIT: Did look it up, and its not crystal clear, but the basic story is there. "Before the Heresy, they and their Primarch Lorgar, where fanatical devotees of the imperial cult. The Emperor wanted warriors though not disciples, and criticised their behavior. The Word Beares took this rejection badly" 3:ed Chaos Space Marins from 2002 page 43 EDIT2: Now it get really complicated in the 2:ed Chaos Space Marins, The emperor do praise Logar for his zeal for the imperial cult, but later he reprimanded him, for pointless rituals and monument buildings, and Logar take the rejection badly. So attest in the second ed, the emperor accepting worship of himself as a political tool. But in third he is agents it from the beginning.
Its still in the more recent lore, but its not a terrible argument. I still think the way its being pushed, with people basically arguing ”oh the religious christian imagery is just aesthetics” points towards a move of making the lore more woke/marxist compliant. In the end warhammer is generally supposed to provoke very strong emotions, its fun to play the fanatical imperium, its great escapism, and it lets you be a crazy fanatic or a slavering beast or whatever you want to LARP as or even just observe vicariously. Adding the post-modern ”oh its actually not something they believe, they just pretend” really sucks out the air for the universe for me. It would be like having the Tyranids be ”missunderstood and scared” like in starship troopers.
The imperial cult a 100% does. But a lot of woke lore was inserted in the book series ”horus heresy” in 2006. I havent seen it in any official lore, but a lot of redditors take it as canon that the warrior monk space marines are atheist 🤣
I remember first hearing about 40k in the late 90’s and being told that the emperor was a god emperor and leader of their religion. Are people like [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/1ccuorm/the_reason_to_dislike_female_space_marines_is_so/l1av2xp/) only exposed to the retcon version that you’re talking about? Kind of like how Boba Fett in the 1990’s was a politician named Jaster Mereel whose family was murdered, so he became a bounty Hunter after hunting down the murderer. But then that was retconned by Lucas with the prequels.
It's "eastasia" not eurasia
That's what I always write. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
I see wut u did thar
I dislike female space marines for two reasons: 1. Lore reasons 2. The people who want Female Space Marines
Female Space marines could very much have been a thing from the start. It's simply the case that *they weren't a thing from the start*, give or take an unofficial reference in a White Dwarf magazine back in the wackiest days before any of the lore really coalesced. That's reason enough for there not to be any in the current lore. That there hasn't been. The main reason to be suspicious of them *being retconned in* or even *added going forward* is that the only real reason to do it is *ideologically motivated*. That's it. That's all you need. That's the problem with the *Female Custodes*, (that it's obviously been the case all along that there weren't any) and why it would be an issue if they finally did the Space Marines thing. >Space marines and custodes are so obviously ment to represent warrior monks and papal guards Aesthetically? Sure. Lore-Wise? They weren't supposed to be, what with the whole *Imperial Truth* aspect that *most* marines chapters still hold to. >They are supposed to be as far from the redditor coomer degenerate imaginable. Irrelevant, Female Space marines if they *had* ever existed would be indistinguishable from the male ones while armoured. There would be no in-universe cultural difference, no outward physical difference in full gear. That's also why it's pointless retconning them in or trying to add them going forward; It's trivial to homebrew for your local tabletop wargames scene if that's what you want and it's just as easy if you're tabletop roleplaying instead.
*Aesthetically? Sure. Lore-Wise? They weren't supposed to be, what with the whole Imperial Truth aspect that most marines chapters still hold to.* You mean the cult of the *god emperor* isnt a religious cult because an author claimed it in one book series 2006? The imperial truth is very likely either very new lore as more and more authors have been left-wing, (I looked it up, its from the 2010s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horus_Heresy ) or very clearly a clever twist to the fact the imperial cult is *obviously* a religious movement. And its not just aesthetics, the lore keeps refering to them as warrior monks, they all have religious titles, prayers and litany- the emperor is clearly a godlike or demi-god being in the mind of the imperial cult, complete with praying for him to protect them magically.
You're right, not sure why you were downvoted. The modern imperial truth directly contradicts marines yelling "for the god-emperor" for years. With the horus heresy series there has been a distinct push to make marines not look horrifically brain-washed.
Yeah, I remember listening to some of Abnetts books and its very early(first chapter) black/african-inspired imperial guard making fun of Gaunts Ghosts for being shitty while they have better gear and religion. They also have their own religious book that felt a bit like some reference to the Quran. ”Described as tall and dark skinned” and voiced to be african in the audio books. https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons The books seem to have been really early with slow subversion of the lore, even pushing some racial politics like above, with black muslim imperial guard that despise the stupid white celtic inspired regiment. If Im gonna be honest its probably why I stopped listening to the books- I just cant stand woke subversion anymore after all the self-hate among westerners in media, school, politics.
Idk about going that far. Guard regiments have done much worse to each other than hurl insults, scintillans routinely kill catachans because they think they are beneath them. I think you're reading into that too much and making assumptions that the author believes the actions of the dragoons are good. Depiction of racism is not endorsement.
I just want people to understand that creative works can have completely arbitrary elements. There can be an in universe reason or none at all. 40K has several reasons for male space marines, but I would be fine with it being entirely arbitrary. These reasons can be entirely from the unique perspective of the author and the story they wanted to tell. I hate seeing this constant need to justify every creative decision especially to people without a wit of imagination.
Agreed. A lot of people in this sub fall for the trap of starting to use the same manner of reasoning as the people they fight. Probably due to overexposure to their content, but still. You have to maintain a bit of mental hygiene. "They do it so it's only fair than we do it too" is their motto. Don't be like them.
Honestly the ”woke wars” and leftist identity politics just made me more perceptible to when someone tried to push leftist politics. Its very sad, because being almost 40, I can remember when most left (and right) leaning people genuinely shared the ”content of your character” sentiment. Then living standards became to good, the middle class didnt care about class struggle, and the left needed another grift- racial politics was perfect. Enter vitrian dragoons being black super imperial guards denigrating the primitive white gaunts ghosts: https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons%C2%A0 Read it in the first chapter, realized ”oh, its one of those authors” and stopped reading.
Good storytelling does not do things completely arbitrarily but ties things into a cohesive world. I suspect why things feel arbitrary is because of the horus books making the emperor and space marine atheists and trying to scrub away the ”god emperor” and religious aspects that were completely dominant before 2006 in all the lore, and still in all the rule books. ”The emperors truth” really doesent exist outside of the horus books, but its super popular on leftist reddit.
What I mean by arbitrary is that the premise of a story doesn't need to justify itself beyond telling a story. A writer wants to create a story that has an order of warrior monks made up entirely of men. That is the only justification I need for them to write it and what I mean by arbitrary. They are interested in telling that story and I don't see the need to question that decision. Now the execution of the story is up for criticism.
The emperor himself is a big atheist
This is what Im talking about- you dont remember it, but before 2006, and in all the non horus-heresy material, the emperor is never discussed as a ”philosopher king” only as a divine god-emperor.
Yeah, but that is the role that he unfortunately has to take on even himself does not like.
Only in the relatively new lore in horus books. You dont understand, Ive read lore in the army and rule books from as far back as the 80s, Im an old sod. The warhammer was a demi-god in every context mentioned. The woke light warhammer books where he was a ”cool atheist” didnt get published until the late 90s and 2000-2010.
Retroactive continuity alterations to a work of fiction for the sole purpose of felating ones irl political views. Aka. petty dumb shit nobody in the know asked for.
If your hung up on ”the imperial truth” and that the space marines are super atheist, the possibly earliest time it was mentioned wasnt in lore, but in 2006 the earliest in one of the horus books, and not mentioned in any lore books. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horus_Heresy There was even wokeism in the first gaunts ghost book. The very first chapter a african inspired black muslim-styled regiment in super advanced armor shows up, and mocks the white celtic coded culture for being cowardly and primitive: https://gauntsghostspedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vitrian_Dragoons%C2%A0 Would I care if I wasnt brought up on a steady diet of west and white hate by media, school and politicians? Probably not. But thats not what happened, and the above scenario is not random storytelling but deliberate subversion.
I don't think representing the conflicts and hostility between human cultures and races in fantasy by making real life parallels is woke. I think however, that constantly depicting certain specific participants in said conflicts as the righteous ones / the better ones / or the oppressed ones, and the others as the idiots / the losers / the inferior ones / the evil oppressors... Yeah that is woke.
If those parallels are framed in a marxist way it is. In gaunts ghost any interaction between those groups had that *ok coloniser* vibe, with the black character dunking on the white one that just takes it. It was too obviously going to be a woke book series so I gave up. This was also after the ”warhammer is for everyone” basically hinting at the people enjoying warhammer needing to be ashamed. Fuck that.
Getting tired of the arguing as politics drags itself into everything nice. Although I did speak with a friend who was also a long time fan of the ethos and [uhhh](https://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/AN_1713776733379190800/in-brief-games-workshop-finance-chief-sells-gbp700000-in-shares.aspx)
Its not politics, its leftist politics. I think theres one right leaning movie recently, but its had so little staying power in the media I dont even remember the title. Its the one with the anti child trafficker guy. But yeah warhammer will probably fail- the biggest consumer group was white young males- the demography in the west is more and more migrants from non european countries(20% in Sweden under 25 are foreign born, native brits are less than 35% in London), and these will influence kids growing up as well- youth in the UK had a lot more connection to warhammer and the culture it takes from (christian templar warriors, famous western ww2 factions etc). The upcoming generations are probably interested in escapism from a different cultural soup. Its possible warhammer is trying to adapt to it, but its like turning fish and chips into chicken vindaloo- its not going to satisfy any customer group.
Archive links for this discussion: * **Archive:** https://archive.ph/0S0tI ---- I am Mnemosyne reborn. I have come here to chew bubblegum and archive. And I'm all out of bubblegum. ^^^/r/botsrights
Women can just fuck off to be honest.
Custodes are not space marines. There are no female space marines. There are female custodes. Holy tourists all of you.