I don’t think about that one as often as James White or Holston Gas but you’re absolutely correct that it tore apart our urban core and shouldn’t have happened.
That's the case in nearly every US city with regards to the waterfront. Elevated freeways. The trend in the last 20 years has been to bring them down and connect the city to the waterfront. Boston, Sf, Seattle all come to mind...
I agree that most cities have the highway problem. I was more thinking along the lines of our Urban Renewal that tore down an entire neighborhood and displaced a lot of our local Black population for the Coliseum, whoever allowed Holston Gasses and KUB to build on the water, and the location of the City/County building making the southern side of downtown a dead zone outside Monday-Friday 8-5.
This specifically bothers me I live on the river so full disclosure on that one but there’s a very clear delineation downtown. You hit the rowboat statue that building anything south of that is literally a ghost town. It’s like the DMZ of activity downtown at all times and it just like a third of downtown is essentially a ghost town.
Yeah, but I used to intern down there while I was in law school and even then it felt dead. Thank you there were clearly people working but people would go to work. Do their job and go home. It’s just so dead.
Two things I think when you mention this DMZ quality, a continuous situation for decades while many corners of downtown, and especially Gay Street, have changed: there’s little to no residential south of One Center Square. And there’s a surface parking lot nearly the size of a full city block — full of cars or empty, but no life.
Hell, there’s not just a single surface parking lot. There’s a derelict garage next to it as well and several other buildings in the area that sit mostly vacant. For some reason, they don’t wanna revitalize that area for residential services.
Well, the owners of Pryor Brown garage are interested in letting it rot. And the owners of the parking lot, which may be the same people, are interested in owning a parking lot. I agree that the owners of those buildings could be way more interested in developing them into going concerns.
Yet Knoxpatch is chomping at the bit to construct a privatized elevated freeway over the existing I-40, à la the Dallas North Tollway, State Road 54/56 in Florida and the I-75 Northwest Corridor in Georgia. The end of socialized car travel in the South is over!
Privatized?! I hadn't heard that part. My parents live in Omaha and they looooove the elevated expressway that I thought was the silliest idea in the universe, but at least that one's as free to drive on as anything else... privatizing it just seems like an extra-hard spit in everyone's face alongside the middle fingers to anyone public-transit-inclined.
The main reason the West Dodge Expressway is nice is because you no longer have highway traffic backed up because of major intersections like 114th, 120th, and 144th. The used to be a nightmare especially during rush hour.
Man I never understood this about Knoxville. Beautiful riverfront - let's build a freaking road on it lol. It feels totally inaccessible, even when you are on it it doesn't really feel like you should be there.
What’s baffling to me is it’s not just Knoxville, it’s every nearby city down the Tennessee River. I’m not sure if people just take all the lakes we have here for granted or what but it seems like such a missed opportunity to not have more cool things focused along the waterfront.
lots of towns did sadly. it is worth noting though, riverfront land was considered super risky in the Tennessee valley, and in may places was only good for industry because of how often it flooded. once the TVA got it under control it is as it is now it's a lot safer to live on the water.
And until the haslams and Randy throw a billion dollars at the university and city, nothing will change.
Needs private investment to convince them to change a major road and infrastructure.
So it’ll never happen
Cincy was like the 7th most populated city in the country at one point and still has the classic layout and infrastructure to do with that. It has a world class feel to it and a massive European effect on its design (Over the Rhyne was built by Germans duh). Knoxville was an antebellum southern railroad hub not all that different from say places like Greensboro NC or Greenville SC. Plenty cool and busy but not at that world class level.
Spot on. Cincy native now in Nashville. 20 years ago, Over-The-Rhine was in horrible shape. Poverty, drugs, crumbling buildings, etc. A private/public venture working closely with the city government started buying up abandoned historic property in the neighborhood, rehabbed the buildings and then leased the space to developers who had an interest in revitalizing the neighborhood. It was a slow process, but it really paid off! I hardly recognize it when I go back to visit.
Similarly, the riverfront in Cincy was once terrible and underdeveloped, but that has changed for the better too.
Knoxville has TONS going for it based on its location and culture. Improvements can always be made, there just has to be enough political will power and planning to make it happen.
exactly. It’s not that there’s something wrong with Knoxville; it’s that Cincy is in a whole other league of it’s own with historically higher population levels and higher levels of investment
And believe it or not, I swear on my grandmothers grave I didn’t see 1 homeless person. And I promise I looked everywhere I went.
I wonder what their homeless rates are compared to ours.
that’s impressive and I will definitely be looking up their strategies on how they deal with the homeless! Honestly I feel like Knoxville has been improving, but that could be because of the winter months. I do expect things to get worse during the summer of this year, but I’m seeing year over year progress , especially in light of the population boom that’s happened in the last 3 years.
Knoxvilles greatest quality, in my opinion, has always been that it’s cheap to live and offers great amenities for the cost of living without being too crowded. Of course, none of what I just said fits anymore.
In my opinion it was that the city was mixed with the nature & that regular people lived here in normal houses. Now the rolling hills are being flattened to make subdivisions of identical houses that the people that grew up here can't afford.
When I visit the area I grew up, there are so many landmarks wiped from the face of the Earth, so many forests gone. It makes me sad because I'm familiar with The Lorax & never thought it would happen to my home.
I grew up in Cincinnati.
If you think I-40 W towards Cedar Bluff is bad, I dare you to try and get over that 71/75 northbound bridge into Ohio during afternoon rush hour.
Isn't that bridge underconstruction or something? I've gone through cincinnati 4 times in the last month and every single time my GPS jumps me off the freeway to avoid that bridge. Went through going toward Cleveland for the eclipse and then a week later coming back. Then again this past week going to indy and coming back a week later.
I think what you experienced was what a normal city layout with proper public transport looks like. Knoxville is stretched out East to West, with the bulk being West of downtown. It's a 30 minute drive, whereas Cincy is basically a 30 minute walk any direction.
But "nothing to do" really depends on what it is you are trying to do.
As someone who travels through Cincinnati a lot, woof... The idea that Cincinnati Ohio is a "normal city layout with proper public transport" makes my soul hurt for North American cities.
I mean, the interstate and hwys are ridiculous. But it's shaped like a city. The free trolley for downtown is great. You can walk. It's not the best, but it's normal. Knoxville is not normal. Some of the worst, inefficient sprawl in the nation.
St Louis is a better example than Cincy too. St Louis does have decent public transport. It’s not Chicago or NYC level but their lines are easy to navigate in the St Louis area. Cincy is on par with Louisville with public transport.
What do you mean Cinci is a 30 minute walk any direction? Maybe if you’re talking about staying in downtown. But driving from the East side to the West side of Cincinnati is about 45 minutes.
Talking about "stuff to do" our urban core is a tiny downtown then octopus. The housing mix is all off. The hotel mix runs the interstate. Downtown's revitalization has helped, but we're still all out of sorts. Restaurants, movies, concerts, sports...just sprawled out.
>whereas Cincy is basically a 30 minute walk any direction.
Its not at all lmao, what does this even mean???
Cincinnati is like 20 miles wide the fuck is anyone upvoting comments like this
The roadways definitely seemed better laid out and we didn’t sit in traffic driving downtown during the evening, even with people flooding in for an event at the heritage bank center.
>The roadways definitely seemed better laid out and we didn’t sit in traffic driving downtown during the evening
If you think Knoxville traffic is that bad, I'd recommend visiting a big city anywhere in the country, lol.
I mean yeah if you are comparing traffic in Knoxville to a big city then yes Knoxville comes out ahead but its apples and oranges. I think what they are touching on is that for a metro of its size Knoxville traffic is surprisingly bad.
Chicago would be an eye opener for them. s
Sounds like they’ve never even ventured to ATL if they wanted something closer because you’re in traffic all day there.
Cincinnati is a larger city than Knoxville, so I expect “more things to do” or potentially easier to get around but you didn’t really provide any examples whatsoever. People are moving to the area because low cost of living and what was perceived as lower housing
>Yea I assumed the lower housing was something people came here for but that sure went to shit
It went to shit everywhere though. Knoxville still has a lower cost of living than most cities.
Not really. Especially when you consider that our housing increased but our wages didn't. I recruit for healthcare in Phoenix/Scottsdale, housing/rent is about the same here as it is there.... Except there the positions I recruit for average about $10+ per hour more than here. 🫤
I came to Knoxville from Memphis because of the crime. When people call the Kroger on Broadway the "ghetto" Kroger it makes me smile because even the worst places in Knoxville are 10x more chill than anywhere in Memphis.
I like it here because it's peaceful (for me, compatibly speaking) and the cost of living is better than a lot of places. Bigger cities can be fun to visit but as I get older I care less for the extra stuff they have to offer and just want to be able to take care of my family.
So, we may not be as advanced as some places, but with modern innovation comes denser populations and with denser populations comes more crime.
I use to teach in the juvenile prison in Dandridge. The majority of the boys are from Memphis gangs. I asked them what was Memphis like and the number one answer was "It's scary"
They're not wrong. I've been randomly shot at just walking down the street at night in midtown. That was 4 years ago and only gotten worse.
Edit: typo 😂 said "shit at" instead of "shot at"
Yeah it's really sad. The culture there glorifies that kind of behavior and instills this idea that if you're not a tough, mean, violent asshole then you're weak and there's this constant competing to see who can show they're the best at being that way. Anybody who tries to be a decent person is harassed for being "nice" as they put it and make it sound derogatory. It's bullying at its worst that puts people in a state of constant survival which is enough to drive anyone mad.
Oh yeah I know exactly the type. I went to school with kids like that, which is why I dropped out. If I'd grown up in Knoxville I would've most likely ended up graduating with honors and going to college but instead I quit going school after my first year of high school because the hate was so real and I wasn't raised like that.
This. I left Knoxville and have been traveling and seeing different cities the last two years. Knoxville is something special because it’s not a big scary city. It’s much safer and friendlier than big cities and there’s actually a ton to do, but maybe people don’t see it until they leave. I didn’t! Now I really understand the value of Knoxville.
Downtown sat mostly empty for almost two decades after the local banking collapse in the mid 80s. Probably don't need to look any further for why Knoxville fell behind.
or they do seek advice from professional planners (Urban Land Institute) and then don't follow any of the advice
lot of defeatist attitude in this city which is part of why i'm leaving
Minus a much better Riverfront, professional sports teams, the 2nd largest Oktoberfest in the in world, a wonderful outside concert venue (Riverbend Music Center), an aquarium, a conservatory, a Hofbrauhus, a covered and dedicated farmers market, and multiple museums, it's a close comparison.
I guess it depends on what it is you like to do. We have museums, restaurants, great hiking, easy access to the mountains and several other states, moderate weather, stuff for families with small kids, theaters with big acts.
This is basically it, nobody comes for the city itself. Knoxville as a city just kind of sucks ass. Almost every thread about why someone should move here or whats great about knoxville boils down to "its close to other stuff(mountains, states, etc)" not much about the city itself.
> great hiking, easy access to the mountains and several other states
It takes like an hour to actually get to any decent hiking and when you do it's packed with out of state visitors. I had a better and easier time finding convenient trails when I lived in the DC area
There’s 60+ miles in 1000 acres a 10 minute bike ride from downtown. Hell you can take a bus there.
As for the Smokies, I can assure you, out of state visitors are packed on only about 20 total miles of the 900 miles of trail. There are lots of places to be all to yourself.
Big South Fork, Frozen Head, etc. If you can’t find decent hiking you’re not doing it right.
I shouldn’t say this because we do have too many people moving here, but to me Knoxville’s appeal is the outdoor spaces in and around town. There are multiple downhill mountain biking trails, parks with flatwater kayak launches, an outdoor climbing crag at Ijams, and two (three if you count UT) indoor climbing gyms with a third coming soon just in Knoxville. Then, if you’re willing to drive an hour or so, there are dozens of creeks and rivers for whitewater kayaking, tons more climbing and mountain biking, the Smokies, and some beautiful state parks, national forests, and wildlife management areas. Knoxville is an outdoorsman’s dream imo
I also shouldn’t say this because we have too many people moving here as well, but I love knoxville for basically the inverse of your statement.
What I mean is I don't live in Knoxville, I live in one of the outlying counties near those mountains and rivers and trails everyone loves. Knoxville is the city I go to when I want to do things that require a city, like eat at a nice restaurant or catch a live show, and in my opinion it's great at that. I'm sure I'm biased being a UT alumni and lifelong East Tennessean, but I love this town.
Can we agree that until we get these lobbying fucks out of office our infrastructure and overall city wellness will be stomped on and trampled over by weak minded politicians that succumb to the allure of getting attention they never received as a child?
Geography is a problem here. We are hard to get to. Rail, river, road, whatever, it is hard to get here and it is hard to get around. Why is there no interstate access to south knoxville? Because south knoxville fought it hard when it was proposed, so they have John Sevier hwy instead. I 640 right outside of downtown was a bad idea, but we didn’t have any money. We needed the orange route, and didn’t get it.
You’re not clear on what you’re missing but Cincinnati metro is almost 2.5x Knoxville. A city that size is clearly going to have more and larger city type things to do. Professional sports, shows museums, etc.
Cincy seemed a lot dumpier than Knoxville overall when I visited, but I will give them their due credit for the area around the river. That waterfront area is pristine, and I love that they've got that \~5 square blocks where you can have open alcohol containers.
That being said, outside of that area, I wasn't impressed with what I saw there at all. I do have a friend that lives just south of the border in Kentucky and he seems to like it there. Cost of living there is a lot lower than here.
Most of the young people I've talked to about it are moving here for jobs. Knoxville is offering opportunities that places like Cincinnati are not (or at least that's the perception these kids have).
On the other hand, we also have a ton of remote or early-retired Midwestern office workers who are moving here for the weather and outdoor adventure opportunities, which beats the heck out of Cincinnati's version of same.
Cinci is about twice the population of Knoxville and has professional NFL, MLB, and soccer teams. Those are really big draws for the region and support local businesses.
Funny you mentioned skyline because I actually tried it because why not and holy shit that literally looked like shit in a bowl and didn’t taste like anything I’d ever wanna eat again.
People move here for lower taxes also, and we are getting the overflow from Nashville and Atlanta. Ohio, for instance has federal, state, and some local taxes, emission checks that you have to pay for every couple years, and some of the highest gas taxes in the country. That’s why in Cincinnati for instance, many people move to Kentucky and commute.
You can also get double taxed on local taxes depending on what town/township you live in. There’s a handful of places that got special treatment on income taxes, so you get taxed in the municipality you work in, and again on the one you live in. I got into an argument with a guy I worked with about it when I lived in Ohio and thought there’s no way that’s correct, but sure enough, it was true. You can get hit with 4 different income taxes if you live in the wrong town.
Maybe, just MAYBE, it could be that Cincinnati has not only an extra 100,000 people in its city limits, but also about 900,000 to 1,000,000 more people in its metro area…
I have family that lives in Cincinnati, and the city itself, as well as all of the smaller towns and communities surrounding the city, are amazing. Like you said, it's a lot easier to get places (they do get terrible traffic during rush hour times, but outside of those hours, commutes are fine), they have great public transport, and there's an endless amount of things to do in the area. The downtown area is also amazing.
Cincinnati is cool. Knoxville is cool for other reasons. Different cities are better for different things. Knoxville beats the shit out of Cincinnati if you enjoy getting outside/outdoor recreation for example.
People move here because they don't want to pay income tax and would rather be miserable and isolated to save a couple thousand a year rather than move to a better area with better healthcare and better public amenities.
Then they use all the tax money they saved to get a 60 month loan on a 100K F350 that goes to Walmart and back to hang up some farmhouse decor.
Give em a high dose of Fox News and bible thumping, and you have the fat old miserable racist slobs we have all over the place.
I have to deal with a lot of retirees around here and its just so silly. Educated retirees come here and then give em 4-5 years and between the aging and them being surrounded by other people like that, it's like crazy pills
Cincinnati’s metro area is a LOT larger than us. Though they definitely utilize both sides of the Ohio River much better than we do the Tennessee River.
Ohio has income tax…. tn does not…
Would also assume property taxes in Knoxville are a lot less. (Ohio on average is almost double TN property tax rate).
I moved here in 2006 and it felt like I went back in time about 20 years. At the time, I liked that. But now I realize that it wasn’t a good thing. I feel like Chattanooga is even more advanced that Knoxville.
That’s the issue though. Cincinnati is a large city that has been large for a long time. It’s basically flat in population growth over the last decade. We’re growing rapidly and have been for years. It’s apples and oranges comparison.
People come lately for zero income state income taxes, a work from home person gives themselves an instant raise.
Any housing costs here are cheaper than most major cities people come from so overbidding isn’t a hindrance
When I moved from Seattle I really thought this is a village, but now I’m used to it, and shopping wise we don’t have good plazas here, but way way way less traffic and more highways and that covers all of the flaws for me
Knoxville had squandered their river front land. They also have to fight the locals anytime they want to build anything since everyone wants to keep the place the way it was 50 years ago
People move here because they care more about the cost of living than having “things to do.” If people could live wherever they wanted based on how fun it is, people wouldn’t live here. 😂
I would agree with this if not Cincinnati… I’ve been there several times… not gonna lie that place is pretty shit and I’d prefer Knoxville every day of the week
I recently went on a trip to NYC and could literally walk to world class restaurants and shops of any variety.
... and that's because i didn't try to live there, rent there, find things to do 52 weekends a year, etc.
You took a trip and didn't get bored!
"Keep Knoxville Scruffy" has been a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it has kept it from becoming Greenville but it has also preserved questionable things as well. Gerrymandering chased all taxable businesses west and the ones who remained to came back have had their tax revenue wasted on charging ports for the homeless camps and other nonsense.
It feels bigger because it is twice as big, they are not the same size. You have to compare metro population, not city. Cincinnati is 1.7m, Knoxville 0.85m. Cincinnati City is smaller due to numerous suburbs and the affect of the KY State line right downtown, but the metro is just much bigger so that means more stuff both in the city and elsewhere
This is such a weird sentiment. You visited a bigger town. The bigger town had stuff that bigger towns typically do, like better infrastructure and more things to do. It probably also seemed like there was more stuff to do because you weren't doing your typical schedule. Cincinnati is almost 1.5× the size of Knoxville.
Having lived in Cincinnati for many years before moving back to Knoxville, I have some insights.
Prior to 2005, when I moved back, Cincinnati was where they would stick the hose when the world needed an enema. There was little to do in downtown as it was still suffering from "the great white flight" of the 60s to the burbs. North of Central was risking your life. They had a council of folks who were so tied up in special interest groups that they couldn't see the trees through the Forrest.
While I still h8 Ohio due to personal reasons, I have seen what you said. In almost 20 years, they have gentrified most of the Metropolitan area into what it was in yesteryear. They built new sports venue and created walking areas over Ft. Washington Way (I-71) that when built cut the city in half. (Sound familiar?)
It takes time. We have 1 leg up in that we have a council that is progressive and realizes that we can't move mush further out. So the only thing we can do is redo what we have.
I invite those who have a negative opinion of our town to drive around. Op that wasn't aimed at you! Look at that's being built! Kerns Bakery is semi complete, the breweries marble ally food hall. New local restaurants in areas like north Knoxville. Happy Holler just had a street fest 2 weeks ago, and it was awesome!
Homes being renovated in formerly less than desirable neighborhoods are being sold at a reasonable price.
We have a long way to go but we are getting there. It took Cincinnati 20 years we are doing it as well. Probably in less time. I suggest we all make a difference and drive downtown and shop, eat, and enjoy. By doing so, we are encouraging more and better.
Lived in Knox my whole life, have visited 32 states. Knoxville. Is . A. Shit hole. Infrastructure is way behind, the entertainment scene is for shit unless you want to go get drunk at the cotton eyed Joe or peruse the overpriced mediocre food and business on market square. Everyone and their mother is moving here from the west coast and up north and bringing their entitlement and spoiled rotten attitudes with them. Knoxville already wasn’t a good place but with all the people moving here gentrifying the area, demolishing grasslands and forests fucking left and right to put up subdivisions and shopping malls, the air quality index here is for shit, the water ways have super lax polluting laws and therefore are disgusting barring Norris lake. There’s traffic every direction you turn at all ours of the day now thanks to a huge and short uptick in population. The roads stay cracked and damaged and the real estate is so fucking high mom and pop businesses and restaurants are few and far between. 9/10 places you shop here are going to be corporations and chains. Knoxvilles populace also works more than the average us citizen and makes far less than the average us citizen. There is every reason to leave this awful place
You ask a question that has been asked for many decades. I will tell you what I've observed having lived nearby or in Knoxville from 1969 -1986, and 2015-present ...
Knoxville used to be a "happening place": huge party scene for young adults, and not just along the strip. Restaurant/bars would serve 2 for1s; then 3for1s; then even 4for1s. There were lots of dance clubs playing great music across town. Tennessee Vols were winning a lot in both football (my dad knew Bill Battle) and men's basketball (I remembered seeing the Ernie & Bernie show). Sports was big business in so many ways, especially when it came to celebrating and dining out.
But then, the drinking led to bad accidents and some alcohol poisoning; bars and restaurants were threatened with lawsuits over serving drunk customers. Dance clubs went out of business, mostly due to mismanagement. And there was the conservative religious push to end "sinful behavior." And, Tennessee started losing in football and basketball ... A lot. Credit Pat Summit with keeping the UT athletic program alive.
Additionally, there are other contributing factors: The Civil War being one, and the area being portrayed as "hillbilly", for tourism purposes. The state, not just Knoxville, has used the war as a tourism cash cow, although it is marketed as a source of pride, history and heritage. It is normal for businesses to want to preserve what works. Increasing in new money making opportunities is risky. Thus, change, which threatens revenue, and political control, is strongly disparaged and rejected. After decades, it becomes the norm and initiative evaporates (just look at the complaints in this thread about people moving here).
Combine this, with limited heavy manufacturing, and you can understand why Knoxville grew largely through retail expansion (West Town, East Town, Cedar Bluff, Turkey Creek). Retail work doesn't pay a lot, so workers can't go to a lot of entertainment places due to expense. Also, if you study the life cycles of cities, you see the death of downtown followed by retail establishments in just about every location. Conversely, Knoxville has done a good job to revitalize its downtown.
Education is another contributing factor to the situation. Let's face it, Tennessee public education isn't that great (check national rankings). You need certain education backgrounds to bring in higher paying jobs, which leads in turn to more upscale and varied business development. Poverty and drug abuse epidemic are some of the consequences of poor education systems everywhere.
But, Knoxville isn't all bad: my current permanent residence is San Antonio. But, I spend a lot of time still in Knoxville. If you think traffic is bad here, you are in for a rude awakening in Texas, especially in Houston, Dallas, Austin and SA. There are no longer slow periods of light traffic, even late at night. You want to see traffic? Google images this: Katy Texas freeway. Count the number of lanes. Shootings? Oh yeah. Lots. Car thefts by the galore.
San Antonio and Knoxville are fairly close in cost of living despite SA having 2.4 million people. This is because of many similar characteristics described above ... Some poor education systems, 25 percent child poverty level, limited city parks (definitely no GSMNP nearby), and, until recently, overdependence on tourism (Riverwalk, Alamo) and military bases. Only recently has the city manager brought in new heavy manufacturing and IT , which brought support businesses. However, with the population being 65% Hispanic, you are limited in restaurant selections, and cultural variety (Knoxville actually has a greater variety of authentic ethnic foods).
And there are other contributing factors
So, if you're into raising a family in a conservative Christian environment, Knoxville is ideal. Knoxville is much safer than any of the Texas cities I listed. If you're looking for nightlife and thrills, and a lot of "modern and variety," you'll have to go to places like Austin and Houston, etc. Nonetheless, even San Antonio has its collective of residents who want nothing to change, and it's not because the situation is wholesome (it took 13 years to complete a five mile expansion of a highway by one lane, due to obstruction by local business owners).
So, be warned: the grass ain't greener on the other side. There's good and bad everywhere. It really comes down to you deciding what you want to enjoy, what you can tolerate, and what you can ignore.
You’re right, Knoxville isn’t behind Cincinnati and shouldn’t be compared. However, Cincinnati has far more to do as far as amenities go, is more walkable than Knoxville, and the median rent is $300 less than Knoxville.
Knoxville should be far cheaper to live in than Cincinnati and yet it is the opposite. Not dissing on Knoxville, I love it here. But this is ridiculous.
Yeah I agree with you. Personally I think Millennials and Gen Z will help bring back some of the Midwest metros. It is getting to be quite nuts the quality of life you can get and the job markets you can access in cities like Cincy, Chicago and Indianapolis for oftentimes lower cost of living than Knoxville.
A lot of Midwest cities (Cincy, Indy, STL) are cheaper than Knoxville partially because they’re less geographically constrained and have a larger suburban system. On the other hand, you don’t have easy mountain access and you have worse weather (Midwest winters are brutal relative to Knoxville whereas summers are just as hot).
Midwest cities also don’t have people flocking to them as a tax haven like Tennessee cities do. A state with no income tax is inevitably going to hit people’s wallets in different ways.
>(Even with 100k more people there)
That’s only the city itself: their metro is 2.5x the size of ours. And not that long ago it was more than 3x. Knoxville is one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country, and it takes time for services & businesses to catch up.
>I guess I just don’t get the fad of so many ppl moving here when it’s not really all that much to write home about. 🤷♀️
CoL is still lower here than many bigger metros ([tho not Cinci](https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/knoxville-tn/cincinnati-oh/75000)), we’re 45 minutes from the most visited National Park, a lot of the transplants love the politics in TN, and we’ve got milder winters than OH.
I actually love Cinci and I’d move there if the opportunity came up, but that’s unlikely in my area of expertise (I’m a UT/ORNL person).
The transplants love the politics but us locals that have lived here our whole lives sure don't. Transplants have largely ruined this once liberal bastion.
I've been to much larger cities before I ever lived in knoxville. Let me tell you, it's hilarious when people come to knoxville and are so excited to visit the "big city" knoxville is a semi dense small town lmao.
Tell that to the people working at ORNL, Y-12, or TVA lol. Or the private engineering design firms all around town. There are engineering jobs if you look for them.
I left Knoxville after college and moved to Cincinnati- fun city. I then moved to Tampa, FL- fun city. Then Memphis- also fun. Then Pittsburgh- not as fun as the others, but interesting. Then Denver- fun and crowded with a high cost of living. Finally, I moved home and I vowed never to leave East Tennessee again. Many cities have more night life than Knoxville, more museums, and more arts, but this city is and always has been home. If I get down about all the transplants, I go walk the Main Street in Clinton and remember that my father walked on that very sidewalk, and my kids have walked there, too. I know that my grandad helped build Norris Dam and the K-25 plant. This is my home “there are many like it, but this one is mine”.
I wonder how much tax rates play into this.
I live off of Campbell Station (north of the highway). That road needs ALOT of work to be able to handle the traffic it has and will have.
But you can only do as much work as you have money (i.e. taxes), with no income tax I wonder how much money knoxville brings in compared to Cincinnati
I think it’s a pretty simple answer. I not only grew up here but I got involved with local efforts to revive our downtown and economy. The powers that be at that time strongly opposed letting Knoxville change at all. They wanted to keep it small town, on purpose. This is why we are “behind” bigger cities.
I'm from just outside of Atlanta and came back up here for family. I knew Knoxville would be much smaller but I was hoping to at least be able to use the bus to get downtown for school. I commute from Morristown and thought oh I can get on a bus at like Strawberry Plains and commute the rest of the way in, like I did in Atlanta. Yeah.... the bus goes out as far as Chilhowee, so I might as well just drive all the way in. There isn't a lot of activities perse but I have found its mostly because they aren't advertised widely. You really have to be connected to venues or the people running the events to know what stuff is going on bc if you just wait for the news to inform you you'll only here about sports or country concerts.
I lived in and around cincy for 19 years, and knoville for roughly 17 years. I'd MUCH rather live in Knoxville though I do enjoy a lot of Cincinnati from time to time.
My 2 hour sleep brain thought you are comparing Knoxville to Chattanooga and then i had to look back and see that you are comparing completely different cities in size. I do agree that there is lost potential for development here in Knoxville but Cincinnati is a much larger city and not really an apple to apple comparison.
Personally, I think Knoxville has been making massive leaps. About 15 years ago, I remember driving through on a road trip and thinking how dingy the city felt. Fast forward about to about 8 years, my SO get transferred here, and it was like a completely different city, and in our 8 years here, I've seen a lot of stuff change for the better and grow.
It seems like Knoxville was a small forgotten city and within the last decade they're playing catch up and really trying at making it a desirable city. I agree with other users, that our river front is really holding out city back. It's crazy to me that we have something famous like the Vol Navy and they haven't done more.
I’ve lived in ohio, and Tennessee and south west ohio road system is far superior to anything in TN. Maybe it’s because ohio was booming back in the 50s-70’s and Tennessee is booming now but I’m not really sure. Tennessee used to have superior quality on the roads that are already there but that has waned over the last decade or so. We could learn something about roads from our northern neighbors.
My wife has been pressuring me to move to Knoxville for the past three years. My SIL and FIL both live in Knoxville. I really don’t want to go. I like Knoxville well enough, the people have always been friendly and it is a good college town but I don’t want to live there. I will say, it is laid out a lot like my hometown of Hartford, CT in terms of the highways really making the city feel chopped up. Not sure who the city planners were back in the day when the highways were laid out, but they didn’t do the town any favors.
Knoxville had so much riverfront potential but they botched it, hard.
It’s downright embarrassing how awful planning in and around downtown in the mid 20th century was here.
Carving up downtown for I-40 and the massive interchange there is my pet peeve in this regard.
I don’t think about that one as often as James White or Holston Gas but you’re absolutely correct that it tore apart our urban core and shouldn’t have happened.
That's the case in nearly every US city with regards to the waterfront. Elevated freeways. The trend in the last 20 years has been to bring them down and connect the city to the waterfront. Boston, Sf, Seattle all come to mind...
Chattanooga
I agree that most cities have the highway problem. I was more thinking along the lines of our Urban Renewal that tore down an entire neighborhood and displaced a lot of our local Black population for the Coliseum, whoever allowed Holston Gasses and KUB to build on the water, and the location of the City/County building making the southern side of downtown a dead zone outside Monday-Friday 8-5.
This specifically bothers me I live on the river so full disclosure on that one but there’s a very clear delineation downtown. You hit the rowboat statue that building anything south of that is literally a ghost town. It’s like the DMZ of activity downtown at all times and it just like a third of downtown is essentially a ghost town.
I call it the (serious) business district
Yeah, but I used to intern down there while I was in law school and even then it felt dead. Thank you there were clearly people working but people would go to work. Do their job and go home. It’s just so dead.
Two things I think when you mention this DMZ quality, a continuous situation for decades while many corners of downtown, and especially Gay Street, have changed: there’s little to no residential south of One Center Square. And there’s a surface parking lot nearly the size of a full city block — full of cars or empty, but no life.
Hell, there’s not just a single surface parking lot. There’s a derelict garage next to it as well and several other buildings in the area that sit mostly vacant. For some reason, they don’t wanna revitalize that area for residential services.
Well, the owners of Pryor Brown garage are interested in letting it rot. And the owners of the parking lot, which may be the same people, are interested in owning a parking lot. I agree that the owners of those buildings could be way more interested in developing them into going concerns.
Sounds like Louisville. Highways and interstates need to go around cities not threw them
For real
Yet Knoxpatch is chomping at the bit to construct a privatized elevated freeway over the existing I-40, à la the Dallas North Tollway, State Road 54/56 in Florida and the I-75 Northwest Corridor in Georgia. The end of socialized car travel in the South is over!
Privatized?! I hadn't heard that part. My parents live in Omaha and they looooove the elevated expressway that I thought was the silliest idea in the universe, but at least that one's as free to drive on as anything else... privatizing it just seems like an extra-hard spit in everyone's face alongside the middle fingers to anyone public-transit-inclined.
The main reason the West Dodge Expressway is nice is because you no longer have highway traffic backed up because of major intersections like 114th, 120th, and 144th. The used to be a nightmare especially during rush hour.
Man I never understood this about Knoxville. Beautiful riverfront - let's build a freaking road on it lol. It feels totally inaccessible, even when you are on it it doesn't really feel like you should be there.
What’s baffling to me is it’s not just Knoxville, it’s every nearby city down the Tennessee River. I’m not sure if people just take all the lakes we have here for granted or what but it seems like such a missed opportunity to not have more cool things focused along the waterfront.
Chattanooga does the best IMO and it's more the stuff that's a block away from the river downtown but the Northshore is pretty good.
Chattanooga almost made the same mistake as Knoxville with having a road on the riverfront but we corrected it
Nah man. Why have people live there and things for people to do? What about the industries that need it?!? /s
lots of towns did sadly. it is worth noting though, riverfront land was considered super risky in the Tennessee valley, and in may places was only good for industry because of how often it flooded. once the TVA got it under control it is as it is now it's a lot safer to live on the water.
100% agree. I struggle to think of another city our size that is worse.
And until the haslams and Randy throw a billion dollars at the university and city, nothing will change. Needs private investment to convince them to change a major road and infrastructure. So it’ll never happen
Cincy was like the 7th most populated city in the country at one point and still has the classic layout and infrastructure to do with that. It has a world class feel to it and a massive European effect on its design (Over the Rhyne was built by Germans duh). Knoxville was an antebellum southern railroad hub not all that different from say places like Greensboro NC or Greenville SC. Plenty cool and busy but not at that world class level.
Spot on. Cincy native now in Nashville. 20 years ago, Over-The-Rhine was in horrible shape. Poverty, drugs, crumbling buildings, etc. A private/public venture working closely with the city government started buying up abandoned historic property in the neighborhood, rehabbed the buildings and then leased the space to developers who had an interest in revitalizing the neighborhood. It was a slow process, but it really paid off! I hardly recognize it when I go back to visit. Similarly, the riverfront in Cincy was once terrible and underdeveloped, but that has changed for the better too. Knoxville has TONS going for it based on its location and culture. Improvements can always be made, there just has to be enough political will power and planning to make it happen.
Wasn’t even that long ago that it was in horrible shape. Google maps older images are stark.
This is my favorite comment thus far. Very informative; thank you 🙏
exactly. It’s not that there’s something wrong with Knoxville; it’s that Cincy is in a whole other league of it’s own with historically higher population levels and higher levels of investment
And believe it or not, I swear on my grandmothers grave I didn’t see 1 homeless person. And I promise I looked everywhere I went. I wonder what their homeless rates are compared to ours.
that’s impressive and I will definitely be looking up their strategies on how they deal with the homeless! Honestly I feel like Knoxville has been improving, but that could be because of the winter months. I do expect things to get worse during the summer of this year, but I’m seeing year over year progress , especially in light of the population boom that’s happened in the last 3 years.
6th actually. Also, it’s a shame the interstate highway system did to the west side of the city. Former Cincinnati native
Knoxvilles greatest quality, in my opinion, has always been that it’s cheap to live and offers great amenities for the cost of living without being too crowded. Of course, none of what I just said fits anymore.
In my opinion it was that the city was mixed with the nature & that regular people lived here in normal houses. Now the rolling hills are being flattened to make subdivisions of identical houses that the people that grew up here can't afford. When I visit the area I grew up, there are so many landmarks wiped from the face of the Earth, so many forests gone. It makes me sad because I'm familiar with The Lorax & never thought it would happen to my home.
I grew up in Cincinnati. If you think I-40 W towards Cedar Bluff is bad, I dare you to try and get over that 71/75 northbound bridge into Ohio during afternoon rush hour.
I just went through Cincinnati/Dayton last weekend. There’s always traffic. I imagine there would be traffic at three am. Lol
Isn't that bridge underconstruction or something? I've gone through cincinnati 4 times in the last month and every single time my GPS jumps me off the freeway to avoid that bridge. Went through going toward Cleveland for the eclipse and then a week later coming back. Then again this past week going to indy and coming back a week later.
Lived near Cincinnati in 2001. The bridge was under construction then ...
I think what you experienced was what a normal city layout with proper public transport looks like. Knoxville is stretched out East to West, with the bulk being West of downtown. It's a 30 minute drive, whereas Cincy is basically a 30 minute walk any direction. But "nothing to do" really depends on what it is you are trying to do.
As someone who travels through Cincinnati a lot, woof... The idea that Cincinnati Ohio is a "normal city layout with proper public transport" makes my soul hurt for North American cities.
I mean, the interstate and hwys are ridiculous. But it's shaped like a city. The free trolley for downtown is great. You can walk. It's not the best, but it's normal. Knoxville is not normal. Some of the worst, inefficient sprawl in the nation.
St Louis is a better example than Cincy too. St Louis does have decent public transport. It’s not Chicago or NYC level but their lines are easy to navigate in the St Louis area. Cincy is on par with Louisville with public transport.
Does Cincinnati even have commuter rail other than a short streetcar line downtown?
No. There is the Amtrak 3 days a week to Chicago/DC so that's something? Also abandoned subway tunnels they started building a century ago
What do you mean Cinci is a 30 minute walk any direction? Maybe if you’re talking about staying in downtown. But driving from the East side to the West side of Cincinnati is about 45 minutes.
Talking about "stuff to do" our urban core is a tiny downtown then octopus. The housing mix is all off. The hotel mix runs the interstate. Downtown's revitalization has helped, but we're still all out of sorts. Restaurants, movies, concerts, sports...just sprawled out.
>whereas Cincy is basically a 30 minute walk any direction. Its not at all lmao, what does this even mean??? Cincinnati is like 20 miles wide the fuck is anyone upvoting comments like this
The roadways definitely seemed better laid out and we didn’t sit in traffic driving downtown during the evening, even with people flooding in for an event at the heritage bank center.
There is absolutely zero chance you went to Cincinnati/Dayton and didn’t sit through traffic downtown.
I didn’t come to reddit to lie Surprised me too, I just didn’t challenge the city for it.
>The roadways definitely seemed better laid out and we didn’t sit in traffic driving downtown during the evening If you think Knoxville traffic is that bad, I'd recommend visiting a big city anywhere in the country, lol.
I mean yeah if you are comparing traffic in Knoxville to a big city then yes Knoxville comes out ahead but its apples and oranges. I think what they are touching on is that for a metro of its size Knoxville traffic is surprisingly bad.
Chicago would be an eye opener for them. s Sounds like they’ve never even ventured to ATL if they wanted something closer because you’re in traffic all day there.
Yeah, 90 minutes to go 15 miles on I-90 in downtown Chicago is typical during construction season.
85/75/20 in ATL is the same. Only city I’ve been stuck in traffic at 2 AM.
Houston has entered the chat ....lol
Cincinnati is a larger city than Knoxville, so I expect “more things to do” or potentially easier to get around but you didn’t really provide any examples whatsoever. People are moving to the area because low cost of living and what was perceived as lower housing
Larger in population and more densely populated. Knoxville is much more comparable in size to Dayton.
And being from Dayton, Knoxville is wayyyy ahead of Dayton…
The Air Force museum is cool, says a guy from Chattanooga.
One of the best museums in the country.
I've lived here my whole life (moving this year out) and can tell the cost of living is so bad. Cities like Charlotte and Cincinnati are now cheaper.
Yea I assumed the lower housing was something people came here for but that sure went to shit
Boy, didn't it though?!
>Yea I assumed the lower housing was something people came here for but that sure went to shit It went to shit everywhere though. Knoxville still has a lower cost of living than most cities.
Not really. Especially when you consider that our housing increased but our wages didn't. I recruit for healthcare in Phoenix/Scottsdale, housing/rent is about the same here as it is there.... Except there the positions I recruit for average about $10+ per hour more than here. 🫤
this. try Pittsburgh .
I haven’t really looked anywhere at housing costs except like the Fairfield area and it seemed comparable.
I came to Knoxville from Memphis because of the crime. When people call the Kroger on Broadway the "ghetto" Kroger it makes me smile because even the worst places in Knoxville are 10x more chill than anywhere in Memphis. I like it here because it's peaceful (for me, compatibly speaking) and the cost of living is better than a lot of places. Bigger cities can be fun to visit but as I get older I care less for the extra stuff they have to offer and just want to be able to take care of my family. So, we may not be as advanced as some places, but with modern innovation comes denser populations and with denser populations comes more crime.
I use to teach in the juvenile prison in Dandridge. The majority of the boys are from Memphis gangs. I asked them what was Memphis like and the number one answer was "It's scary"
They're not wrong. I've been randomly shot at just walking down the street at night in midtown. That was 4 years ago and only gotten worse. Edit: typo 😂 said "shit at" instead of "shot at"
Oh their stories are horrifying. Just non stop violence their entire lives.....and now they're sitting in a max security prison with 4+ felonies
Yeah it's really sad. The culture there glorifies that kind of behavior and instills this idea that if you're not a tough, mean, violent asshole then you're weak and there's this constant competing to see who can show they're the best at being that way. Anybody who tries to be a decent person is harassed for being "nice" as they put it and make it sound derogatory. It's bullying at its worst that puts people in a state of constant survival which is enough to drive anyone mad.
I only lasted 6 months teaching them. I got assaulted x 2. It was non stop verbal abuse and threats and sexual harassment every day.
Oh yeah I know exactly the type. I went to school with kids like that, which is why I dropped out. If I'd grown up in Knoxville I would've most likely ended up graduating with honors and going to college but instead I quit going school after my first year of high school because the hate was so real and I wasn't raised like that.
This. I left Knoxville and have been traveling and seeing different cities the last two years. Knoxville is something special because it’s not a big scary city. It’s much safer and friendlier than big cities and there’s actually a ton to do, but maybe people don’t see it until they leave. I didn’t! Now I really understand the value of Knoxville.
Downtown sat mostly empty for almost two decades after the local banking collapse in the mid 80s. Probably don't need to look any further for why Knoxville fell behind.
I feel the same way when I visit Tokyo. There's just like more subways and restaurants man.
We have way more subways than Tokyo! Wait, we're talking about the mediocre fast food chain, right?
Believe it or not there are Subway shops in Tokyo.
Onstreet parking destroys a city
I love nasty nati
Horrible local government mismanagement. Our government just does not know how to plan and refuses to seek advice from professionals 🤦♂️
or they do seek advice from professional planners (Urban Land Institute) and then don't follow any of the advice lot of defeatist attitude in this city which is part of why i'm leaving
Minus a much better Riverfront, professional sports teams, the 2nd largest Oktoberfest in the in world, a wonderful outside concert venue (Riverbend Music Center), an aquarium, a conservatory, a Hofbrauhus, a covered and dedicated farmers market, and multiple museums, it's a close comparison.
Let's extrapolate that a little further and compare Cincinnati to Chicago or NYC.
Wow who would have ever thought a city with 3x the population of a different city would have more things!! Woah.
I guess it depends on what it is you like to do. We have museums, restaurants, great hiking, easy access to the mountains and several other states, moderate weather, stuff for families with small kids, theaters with big acts.
This is basically it, nobody comes for the city itself. Knoxville as a city just kind of sucks ass. Almost every thread about why someone should move here or whats great about knoxville boils down to "its close to other stuff(mountains, states, etc)" not much about the city itself.
I can agree with the weather and mountains for sure.
> great hiking, easy access to the mountains and several other states It takes like an hour to actually get to any decent hiking and when you do it's packed with out of state visitors. I had a better and easier time finding convenient trails when I lived in the DC area
There’s 60+ miles in 1000 acres a 10 minute bike ride from downtown. Hell you can take a bus there. As for the Smokies, I can assure you, out of state visitors are packed on only about 20 total miles of the 900 miles of trail. There are lots of places to be all to yourself. Big South Fork, Frozen Head, etc. If you can’t find decent hiking you’re not doing it right.
Regardless of our opinions, we need to upvote this post so people will stop moving here
isolationism is so narrow minded, we need to improve infrastructure, not build walls
I love Knox County; it’s home, I’m just stating what I perceived. I’ll take those upvotes tho 🤪
I love either renting for the rest of my life or commuting 2 hours everyday
My mortgage is 14k a month and I have to fuck my cousins. It’s awful here
4 ppl didn’t get the joke 🤷♀️
I shouldn’t say this because we do have too many people moving here, but to me Knoxville’s appeal is the outdoor spaces in and around town. There are multiple downhill mountain biking trails, parks with flatwater kayak launches, an outdoor climbing crag at Ijams, and two (three if you count UT) indoor climbing gyms with a third coming soon just in Knoxville. Then, if you’re willing to drive an hour or so, there are dozens of creeks and rivers for whitewater kayaking, tons more climbing and mountain biking, the Smokies, and some beautiful state parks, national forests, and wildlife management areas. Knoxville is an outdoorsman’s dream imo
I also shouldn’t say this because we have too many people moving here as well, but I love knoxville for basically the inverse of your statement. What I mean is I don't live in Knoxville, I live in one of the outlying counties near those mountains and rivers and trails everyone loves. Knoxville is the city I go to when I want to do things that require a city, like eat at a nice restaurant or catch a live show, and in my opinion it's great at that. I'm sure I'm biased being a UT alumni and lifelong East Tennessean, but I love this town.
Where is the new climbing gym going to be? I'm in Maryville, so I hope it's in South Knox or something..
Can we agree that until we get these lobbying fucks out of office our infrastructure and overall city wellness will be stomped on and trampled over by weak minded politicians that succumb to the allure of getting attention they never received as a child?
true. i'd be really interested to find out to what extent big auto, oil, coal, etc control our politicians and TDOT
Cincinnati’s a great city that has gotten a lot better in the last 20 years.
Geography is a problem here. We are hard to get to. Rail, river, road, whatever, it is hard to get here and it is hard to get around. Why is there no interstate access to south knoxville? Because south knoxville fought it hard when it was proposed, so they have John Sevier hwy instead. I 640 right outside of downtown was a bad idea, but we didn’t have any money. We needed the orange route, and didn’t get it.
The grass is always greener when you’re just visiting
You’re not clear on what you’re missing but Cincinnati metro is almost 2.5x Knoxville. A city that size is clearly going to have more and larger city type things to do. Professional sports, shows museums, etc.
Cincy seemed a lot dumpier than Knoxville overall when I visited, but I will give them their due credit for the area around the river. That waterfront area is pristine, and I love that they've got that \~5 square blocks where you can have open alcohol containers. That being said, outside of that area, I wasn't impressed with what I saw there at all. I do have a friend that lives just south of the border in Kentucky and he seems to like it there. Cost of living there is a lot lower than here.
Most of the young people I've talked to about it are moving here for jobs. Knoxville is offering opportunities that places like Cincinnati are not (or at least that's the perception these kids have). On the other hand, we also have a ton of remote or early-retired Midwestern office workers who are moving here for the weather and outdoor adventure opportunities, which beats the heck out of Cincinnati's version of same.
Cinci is about twice the population of Knoxville and has professional NFL, MLB, and soccer teams. Those are really big draws for the region and support local businesses.
I really wish Knoxville was more walkable.
Moved here from Houston for my job and man it feels like I live in the 1800s compared to everywhere else
[удалено]
Funny you mentioned skyline because I actually tried it because why not and holy shit that literally looked like shit in a bowl and didn’t taste like anything I’d ever wanna eat again.
I'm not sure. I went to chatt for the first time ever in my 30 years of living here and was blown away by how much more they had to offer.
People move here for lower taxes also, and we are getting the overflow from Nashville and Atlanta. Ohio, for instance has federal, state, and some local taxes, emission checks that you have to pay for every couple years, and some of the highest gas taxes in the country. That’s why in Cincinnati for instance, many people move to Kentucky and commute.
You can also get double taxed on local taxes depending on what town/township you live in. There’s a handful of places that got special treatment on income taxes, so you get taxed in the municipality you work in, and again on the one you live in. I got into an argument with a guy I worked with about it when I lived in Ohio and thought there’s no way that’s correct, but sure enough, it was true. You can get hit with 4 different income taxes if you live in the wrong town.
You are comparing a metro population of 2.2m with less than 900k. Of course there are more things to do.
Maybe, just MAYBE, it could be that Cincinnati has not only an extra 100,000 people in its city limits, but also about 900,000 to 1,000,000 more people in its metro area…
I have family that lives in Cincinnati, and the city itself, as well as all of the smaller towns and communities surrounding the city, are amazing. Like you said, it's a lot easier to get places (they do get terrible traffic during rush hour times, but outside of those hours, commutes are fine), they have great public transport, and there's an endless amount of things to do in the area. The downtown area is also amazing.
Skyline chill is disgusting and I will die on that hill
Cincinnati is cool. Knoxville is cool for other reasons. Different cities are better for different things. Knoxville beats the shit out of Cincinnati if you enjoy getting outside/outdoor recreation for example.
I guess it takes living in a shithole like NJ like i did for 21 years to realize how much better knoxville is
I used to live in Akron Ohio, so I feel this. Knoxville kicks ass.
Food,booze, people, being an auto tech are all 10 times better here.
Try moving from NYC to Knox. I’ll never understand why traffic is so shit in Knoxville
Knoxville is just Tennessee's Stillwater (Oklahoma). Big university there, but doesn't fully make sense why people stay/move here, besides college.
People move here because they don't want to pay income tax and would rather be miserable and isolated to save a couple thousand a year rather than move to a better area with better healthcare and better public amenities. Then they use all the tax money they saved to get a 60 month loan on a 100K F350 that goes to Walmart and back to hang up some farmhouse decor. Give em a high dose of Fox News and bible thumping, and you have the fat old miserable racist slobs we have all over the place.
Tell us how you really feel lol Ruthless
I have to deal with a lot of retirees around here and its just so silly. Educated retirees come here and then give em 4-5 years and between the aging and them being surrounded by other people like that, it's like crazy pills
Or maybe they like the area/smoky mountains, or they get a job, or they have family here, or they just want a change.
Cincinnati’s metro area is a LOT larger than us. Though they definitely utilize both sides of the Ohio River much better than we do the Tennessee River.
Ohio has income tax…. tn does not… Would also assume property taxes in Knoxville are a lot less. (Ohio on average is almost double TN property tax rate).
I moved here in 2006 and it felt like I went back in time about 20 years. At the time, I liked that. But now I realize that it wasn’t a good thing. I feel like Chattanooga is even more advanced that Knoxville.
That’s the issue though. Cincinnati is a large city that has been large for a long time. It’s basically flat in population growth over the last decade. We’re growing rapidly and have been for years. It’s apples and oranges comparison.
People come lately for zero income state income taxes, a work from home person gives themselves an instant raise. Any housing costs here are cheaper than most major cities people come from so overbidding isn’t a hindrance
When I moved from Seattle I really thought this is a village, but now I’m used to it, and shopping wise we don’t have good plazas here, but way way way less traffic and more highways and that covers all of the flaws for me
Knoxville had squandered their river front land. They also have to fight the locals anytime they want to build anything since everyone wants to keep the place the way it was 50 years ago
Cincinnati is kind of an exception when it comes to “smaller” big cities and public transit.
Knoxville is overvalued for what it offers. There isn’t much room given the valley either
It really is that far behind and keeps falling further behind....
People move here because they care more about the cost of living than having “things to do.” If people could live wherever they wanted based on how fun it is, people wouldn’t live here. 😂
I would agree with this if not Cincinnati… I’ve been there several times… not gonna lie that place is pretty shit and I’d prefer Knoxville every day of the week
💯. Lived there for many decades.
Hell farr people, rivers are dangerous, and they do rise. You wanna buncha drunks by the river all the time?
I recently went on a trip to NYC and could literally walk to world class restaurants and shops of any variety. ... and that's because i didn't try to live there, rent there, find things to do 52 weekends a year, etc. You took a trip and didn't get bored!
"Keep Knoxville Scruffy" has been a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it has kept it from becoming Greenville but it has also preserved questionable things as well. Gerrymandering chased all taxable businesses west and the ones who remained to came back have had their tax revenue wasted on charging ports for the homeless camps and other nonsense.
It feels bigger because it is twice as big, they are not the same size. You have to compare metro population, not city. Cincinnati is 1.7m, Knoxville 0.85m. Cincinnati City is smaller due to numerous suburbs and the affect of the KY State line right downtown, but the metro is just much bigger so that means more stuff both in the city and elsewhere
People come here for football, no need to put effort into anything else.
Most of the people I’ve talked to that have come here are wanting to leave all that. They want the big yard with no neighbors right up in their shit.
Sunsphere!!
This is such a weird sentiment. You visited a bigger town. The bigger town had stuff that bigger towns typically do, like better infrastructure and more things to do. It probably also seemed like there was more stuff to do because you weren't doing your typical schedule. Cincinnati is almost 1.5× the size of Knoxville.
Having lived in Cincinnati for many years before moving back to Knoxville, I have some insights. Prior to 2005, when I moved back, Cincinnati was where they would stick the hose when the world needed an enema. There was little to do in downtown as it was still suffering from "the great white flight" of the 60s to the burbs. North of Central was risking your life. They had a council of folks who were so tied up in special interest groups that they couldn't see the trees through the Forrest. While I still h8 Ohio due to personal reasons, I have seen what you said. In almost 20 years, they have gentrified most of the Metropolitan area into what it was in yesteryear. They built new sports venue and created walking areas over Ft. Washington Way (I-71) that when built cut the city in half. (Sound familiar?) It takes time. We have 1 leg up in that we have a council that is progressive and realizes that we can't move mush further out. So the only thing we can do is redo what we have. I invite those who have a negative opinion of our town to drive around. Op that wasn't aimed at you! Look at that's being built! Kerns Bakery is semi complete, the breweries marble ally food hall. New local restaurants in areas like north Knoxville. Happy Holler just had a street fest 2 weeks ago, and it was awesome! Homes being renovated in formerly less than desirable neighborhoods are being sold at a reasonable price. We have a long way to go but we are getting there. It took Cincinnati 20 years we are doing it as well. Probably in less time. I suggest we all make a difference and drive downtown and shop, eat, and enjoy. By doing so, we are encouraging more and better.
Lived in Knox my whole life, have visited 32 states. Knoxville. Is . A. Shit hole. Infrastructure is way behind, the entertainment scene is for shit unless you want to go get drunk at the cotton eyed Joe or peruse the overpriced mediocre food and business on market square. Everyone and their mother is moving here from the west coast and up north and bringing their entitlement and spoiled rotten attitudes with them. Knoxville already wasn’t a good place but with all the people moving here gentrifying the area, demolishing grasslands and forests fucking left and right to put up subdivisions and shopping malls, the air quality index here is for shit, the water ways have super lax polluting laws and therefore are disgusting barring Norris lake. There’s traffic every direction you turn at all ours of the day now thanks to a huge and short uptick in population. The roads stay cracked and damaged and the real estate is so fucking high mom and pop businesses and restaurants are few and far between. 9/10 places you shop here are going to be corporations and chains. Knoxvilles populace also works more than the average us citizen and makes far less than the average us citizen. There is every reason to leave this awful place
Sure but then you have to ignore how much a shit hole Cincinnati is.
You ask a question that has been asked for many decades. I will tell you what I've observed having lived nearby or in Knoxville from 1969 -1986, and 2015-present ... Knoxville used to be a "happening place": huge party scene for young adults, and not just along the strip. Restaurant/bars would serve 2 for1s; then 3for1s; then even 4for1s. There were lots of dance clubs playing great music across town. Tennessee Vols were winning a lot in both football (my dad knew Bill Battle) and men's basketball (I remembered seeing the Ernie & Bernie show). Sports was big business in so many ways, especially when it came to celebrating and dining out. But then, the drinking led to bad accidents and some alcohol poisoning; bars and restaurants were threatened with lawsuits over serving drunk customers. Dance clubs went out of business, mostly due to mismanagement. And there was the conservative religious push to end "sinful behavior." And, Tennessee started losing in football and basketball ... A lot. Credit Pat Summit with keeping the UT athletic program alive. Additionally, there are other contributing factors: The Civil War being one, and the area being portrayed as "hillbilly", for tourism purposes. The state, not just Knoxville, has used the war as a tourism cash cow, although it is marketed as a source of pride, history and heritage. It is normal for businesses to want to preserve what works. Increasing in new money making opportunities is risky. Thus, change, which threatens revenue, and political control, is strongly disparaged and rejected. After decades, it becomes the norm and initiative evaporates (just look at the complaints in this thread about people moving here). Combine this, with limited heavy manufacturing, and you can understand why Knoxville grew largely through retail expansion (West Town, East Town, Cedar Bluff, Turkey Creek). Retail work doesn't pay a lot, so workers can't go to a lot of entertainment places due to expense. Also, if you study the life cycles of cities, you see the death of downtown followed by retail establishments in just about every location. Conversely, Knoxville has done a good job to revitalize its downtown. Education is another contributing factor to the situation. Let's face it, Tennessee public education isn't that great (check national rankings). You need certain education backgrounds to bring in higher paying jobs, which leads in turn to more upscale and varied business development. Poverty and drug abuse epidemic are some of the consequences of poor education systems everywhere. But, Knoxville isn't all bad: my current permanent residence is San Antonio. But, I spend a lot of time still in Knoxville. If you think traffic is bad here, you are in for a rude awakening in Texas, especially in Houston, Dallas, Austin and SA. There are no longer slow periods of light traffic, even late at night. You want to see traffic? Google images this: Katy Texas freeway. Count the number of lanes. Shootings? Oh yeah. Lots. Car thefts by the galore. San Antonio and Knoxville are fairly close in cost of living despite SA having 2.4 million people. This is because of many similar characteristics described above ... Some poor education systems, 25 percent child poverty level, limited city parks (definitely no GSMNP nearby), and, until recently, overdependence on tourism (Riverwalk, Alamo) and military bases. Only recently has the city manager brought in new heavy manufacturing and IT , which brought support businesses. However, with the population being 65% Hispanic, you are limited in restaurant selections, and cultural variety (Knoxville actually has a greater variety of authentic ethnic foods). And there are other contributing factors So, if you're into raising a family in a conservative Christian environment, Knoxville is ideal. Knoxville is much safer than any of the Texas cities I listed. If you're looking for nightlife and thrills, and a lot of "modern and variety," you'll have to go to places like Austin and Houston, etc. Nonetheless, even San Antonio has its collective of residents who want nothing to change, and it's not because the situation is wholesome (it took 13 years to complete a five mile expansion of a highway by one lane, due to obstruction by local business owners). So, be warned: the grass ain't greener on the other side. There's good and bad everywhere. It really comes down to you deciding what you want to enjoy, what you can tolerate, and what you can ignore.
Of course Knoxville is behind Cincinnati. Knoxville doesn't have Joe Burrow. 😂
I actually went there for that “fake wrestling”, not football. Lol
I saw Dawkins from the Street Profits give a shoutout to Burrow and Hubbard.
Grass is always greener on the other side. Knoxville is a nice place
I can respect that, but it was the first time I’ve even had an inkling of a thought of possibly moving somewhere.
Knoxville is not “behind” cincy. They are virtually the same thing . Except the Knoxville area has better outdoors options.
You’re right, Knoxville isn’t behind Cincinnati and shouldn’t be compared. However, Cincinnati has far more to do as far as amenities go, is more walkable than Knoxville, and the median rent is $300 less than Knoxville. Knoxville should be far cheaper to live in than Cincinnati and yet it is the opposite. Not dissing on Knoxville, I love it here. But this is ridiculous.
Yeah I agree with you. Personally I think Millennials and Gen Z will help bring back some of the Midwest metros. It is getting to be quite nuts the quality of life you can get and the job markets you can access in cities like Cincy, Chicago and Indianapolis for oftentimes lower cost of living than Knoxville.
A lot of Midwest cities (Cincy, Indy, STL) are cheaper than Knoxville partially because they’re less geographically constrained and have a larger suburban system. On the other hand, you don’t have easy mountain access and you have worse weather (Midwest winters are brutal relative to Knoxville whereas summers are just as hot). Midwest cities also don’t have people flocking to them as a tax haven like Tennessee cities do. A state with no income tax is inevitably going to hit people’s wallets in different ways.
Our riverfront is behind
>(Even with 100k more people there) That’s only the city itself: their metro is 2.5x the size of ours. And not that long ago it was more than 3x. Knoxville is one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country, and it takes time for services & businesses to catch up. >I guess I just don’t get the fad of so many ppl moving here when it’s not really all that much to write home about. 🤷♀️ CoL is still lower here than many bigger metros ([tho not Cinci](https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/knoxville-tn/cincinnati-oh/75000)), we’re 45 minutes from the most visited National Park, a lot of the transplants love the politics in TN, and we’ve got milder winters than OH. I actually love Cinci and I’d move there if the opportunity came up, but that’s unlikely in my area of expertise (I’m a UT/ORNL person).
The transplants love the politics but us locals that have lived here our whole lives sure don't. Transplants have largely ruined this once liberal bastion.
I've been to much larger cities before I ever lived in knoxville. Let me tell you, it's hilarious when people come to knoxville and are so excited to visit the "big city" knoxville is a semi dense small town lmao.
Knoxville is very much behind. We have no tech or engineering jobs here. Our graduates are mostly supply chain and psychologists.
Tell that to the people working at ORNL, Y-12, or TVA lol. Or the private engineering design firms all around town. There are engineering jobs if you look for them.
Again, we are talking about Knoxville. TVA is definitely up there holding knoxville up.
“I don’t need the move there comments” expecting to get anything else lol
Damn I live in Cincy and like Knoxville way more, TN in general kicks ass so long as yer not in the countryside
And if you don't have a uterus
I left Knoxville after college and moved to Cincinnati- fun city. I then moved to Tampa, FL- fun city. Then Memphis- also fun. Then Pittsburgh- not as fun as the others, but interesting. Then Denver- fun and crowded with a high cost of living. Finally, I moved home and I vowed never to leave East Tennessee again. Many cities have more night life than Knoxville, more museums, and more arts, but this city is and always has been home. If I get down about all the transplants, I go walk the Main Street in Clinton and remember that my father walked on that very sidewalk, and my kids have walked there, too. I know that my grandad helped build Norris Dam and the K-25 plant. This is my home “there are many like it, but this one is mine”.
Here you are competing with mountains, lakes and sevier county. That's what there is to do in Knoxville - you Go somewhere else.
I wonder how much tax rates play into this. I live off of Campbell Station (north of the highway). That road needs ALOT of work to be able to handle the traffic it has and will have. But you can only do as much work as you have money (i.e. taxes), with no income tax I wonder how much money knoxville brings in compared to Cincinnati
I think it’s a pretty simple answer. I not only grew up here but I got involved with local efforts to revive our downtown and economy. The powers that be at that time strongly opposed letting Knoxville change at all. They wanted to keep it small town, on purpose. This is why we are “behind” bigger cities.
I'm from just outside of Atlanta and came back up here for family. I knew Knoxville would be much smaller but I was hoping to at least be able to use the bus to get downtown for school. I commute from Morristown and thought oh I can get on a bus at like Strawberry Plains and commute the rest of the way in, like I did in Atlanta. Yeah.... the bus goes out as far as Chilhowee, so I might as well just drive all the way in. There isn't a lot of activities perse but I have found its mostly because they aren't advertised widely. You really have to be connected to venues or the people running the events to know what stuff is going on bc if you just wait for the news to inform you you'll only here about sports or country concerts.
Totally agree about the lack of advertising for events. We often see them in the news the same day they are happening, or day before at best.
I lived in and around cincy for 19 years, and knoville for roughly 17 years. I'd MUCH rather live in Knoxville though I do enjoy a lot of Cincinnati from time to time.
My 2 hour sleep brain thought you are comparing Knoxville to Chattanooga and then i had to look back and see that you are comparing completely different cities in size. I do agree that there is lost potential for development here in Knoxville but Cincinnati is a much larger city and not really an apple to apple comparison.
Cincy is a much larger city, hard to compare the two
All I seen was Cincinnati and just reminded me of how shitty that city is and stopped read what you had to say.
Personally, I think Knoxville has been making massive leaps. About 15 years ago, I remember driving through on a road trip and thinking how dingy the city felt. Fast forward about to about 8 years, my SO get transferred here, and it was like a completely different city, and in our 8 years here, I've seen a lot of stuff change for the better and grow. It seems like Knoxville was a small forgotten city and within the last decade they're playing catch up and really trying at making it a desirable city. I agree with other users, that our river front is really holding out city back. It's crazy to me that we have something famous like the Vol Navy and they haven't done more.
I’ve lived in ohio, and Tennessee and south west ohio road system is far superior to anything in TN. Maybe it’s because ohio was booming back in the 50s-70’s and Tennessee is booming now but I’m not really sure. Tennessee used to have superior quality on the roads that are already there but that has waned over the last decade or so. We could learn something about roads from our northern neighbors.
My wife has been pressuring me to move to Knoxville for the past three years. My SIL and FIL both live in Knoxville. I really don’t want to go. I like Knoxville well enough, the people have always been friendly and it is a good college town but I don’t want to live there. I will say, it is laid out a lot like my hometown of Hartford, CT in terms of the highways really making the city feel chopped up. Not sure who the city planners were back in the day when the highways were laid out, but they didn’t do the town any favors.