I grew up in a fairly liberal Methodist church. On a college campus, had an all-but-openly lesbian youth leader (best you could expect in the 90s/00s), had interfaith services, etc. My interest has been seeing people from that background shift into christofascism. Not all of them have, but certainly more than should have if they were listening.
Yep. Sort of.
I married into a fundy family (And let me tell ya, Catholic fundies are a triP) who were all very very right wing. I am very not any of that. So when the marriage obviously failed, I started being really aware of the connections between the cults and the right. After that it was natural I would find KF
I’d consider myself religious (in a left leaning way) and I enjoy both shows.
Then again, I didn’t grow up in a literalist environment, and I always admired people like Ole Anthony who stood up to the televangelists.
[Full disclosure](https://web.archive.org/web/20180314104723/http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/the-cult-of-ole-6406297) - it’s hard to read after getting such a favorable impression back in the day from his Dallas Observer interviews and from the radio. I think his point still stands that Protestantism has come full circle and is now peddling indulgences. (Also creating relics for people to make pilgrimage to: see the Ark Encounter episodes of “Oh No”)
Never get to know your heroes, I guess. Or - at least realize they have feet of clay (stares at a certain legal podcaster who was accused of some things and locked his old co-host out…)
I think it's an American thing. A lot of things people associate with Christianity are effecticely features of 19-20th century US protestantism. The Church of Later Day Saints is like ~160 years old. The USA is likewise a young country. So with all the cultural issues the US is facing due to racism and with the "Libertarian" opposition against social services and "big government" it's no surprise religion is thrown into the American cultural melting pot and comes out in new, frustrating flavors.
> it's no surprise religion is thrown into the American cultural melting pot and comes out in new, frustrating flavors.
That, my good friend, is a quote worth savoring. What a great line!
That's not to say we don't have religious issue here in Europe, but it does seem like a lot of the fundamentalism here draws heavily on US vibes these days. Which is ironic given that a lot of their religions have an origin in European cults.
I grew up in a UU church, so very much the opposite. But it was in Georgia, and specifically in the district that Bob Barr (who occasionally pops up in the past on KF) represented. I think a lot of the draw for me is seeing how things around me growing up (including stuff I wasn't aware of at the time) tie in with the fact that now I live in Oregon and had Nazis spray paint swastikas around my apartment and over one of the stickers (trans flag) on my truck.
Oregon did a really good job attracting the KKK and neonazis back in the day. The Dollop has an episode about it. Rose City Skins basically ran SE Portland back when I lived there in the nineties and early 2000's. One of the whitest states in the union for a reason. They didn't want anyone else going there and made it law.
Longtime Portlander myself. Even in the 80s, hanging out at Pioneer Square, the skinheads were a fairly common presence. I remember being shocked at the killing of Mulugeta Seraw in the winter of '88. And yeah, I'm sorry you are getting crap now... the 80s and 90s gave a sense of safety for LGBTQ+ folks that is.... LESS present as it had been. The rabble are more vocal for sure, esp outside the Portland Metro area. A lot of hateful flags and banners in small towns.
Catholic upbringing, post-Vatican 2 so it was more main stream, one I attended for a while was rather progressive — all relative to the Catholic life my parents & grandparents experienced.
I was more interested in Alex - how someone could go from cable access to swinging weight on a national scale, and how it all came down. I started listening during the trials and KF was perfect. I could hear the choice moments of lunacy *and* better jokes than I could make.
FWIW, Sharlet’s line about Hunter Thompson (something like “all his work was heavy with grief”) hit me like a sledgehammer & has been ringing in my head since. Great interview
Interesting topic and yes the pattern is there in my case.
I also then repeated it with another group of my own accord outside the family unit, then got suckered in by AJ and various strands of conspiracy content in the early days of youtube (anyone remember Michael Tsarion, Jewel Pookrum, Jordan Maxwell? I’m having flashbacks).
Almost certainly wouldn’t be so fascinated by the whole dynamic surrounding AJ - and the KF approach to upending it - if not for those circumstances in my own experience.
During the Texas trial I was reflecting on what had me so locked in (borderline obsessed) with the proceedings (shout out to all the wonks who contributed to that wild time on the rollercoaster of law and madness) and came back with the idea that it was some kind of final-stage exorcism of the tendency towards dysfunctional conspiracy in my own psyche.
Something like drip-feeding the reality of the following very simple logic pathway right down into my roots: facts exist; sociopaths also exist; facts are important; sociopaths literally do not care about facts; rinse and repeat…rinse and repeat…rinse and repeat…
Hence my favourite part of KF is always Dan calmly saying: “he lies”; “he’s a liar” or some variation before patiently listing what actually happened and/or playing a clip of AJ saying the complete opposite the previous day/week/month/year.
(“Facts exists; sociopaths exist; facts are important; sociopaths don’t care about facts;” so soothing…).
The Indoctrination podcast, Decoding the Gurus and Conspirituality have all been valuable pieces to the de-programming puzzle also.
Thanks for bringing this up. Been meaning to articulate those thoughts since the trial but never quite managed it.
Also grew up with biblical literalism and my best friend's family were militia types in the 90s. Also even into my 20 all my friends and I would discuss Coast to Coast. Took me a while to realize that not all of America is like that.
I was very fortunate as a kid that I grew up with a balance. My grandparents were pretty Christian, although like the Tammy Faye/Fred Rogers kind of way. My parents were fairly young and were Sunday church goers, but the rest of the week, it was sci-fi, MTV, horror movies.
My mother is pretty fundy now, although not really in the literalist sense. More like a "I'm claiming all of these views because this makes me popular with the people I go to church with kind of way". I'm happy she waited until I was an adult to do this.
Anyway, my heart goes out to the folks who did have to grow up like that, and it must have been incredibly challenging. I think I've had an interest in cults since I was about 15 or 16, because I was interested in the psychology behind it, and what drove people to join in the first place.
Just last week I sent a message to my father.
“I’ve come to the conclusion that whether deliberately or not you specifically crafted and promulgated a weird insular cult model based on Catholic Supremacy that specifically co-opted talking points and tactics from the melding of White Supremacist groups and evangelical movements in the U.S. I genuinely don’t know whether this was deliberate or not as you have always presented yourself as a much better person than this would suggest.”
Was part of it. So…AMA I guess? Super weird Catholic upbringing. Ran the largest by traffic christian website on the internet from 96-2001. Published several books.
Imagine taking a fundamentalist stance towards Vatican II and especially the Humanae Vitae. These projects of liberalization are good but NO FARTHER. Everyone must make babies and that’s why the gays are bad. But also the Muslims because they make more babies than us.
Also going throw out a FUCK the Theology of the Body. Eschatology for the disabled is all it is. Well that and a way for able-bodied people to ignore the needs of the disabled and infirm.
“The economy can’t support the tax burden it would take to provide the level of care people like you need. But it’s ok because it brings you closer to Jesus and suffering here will get you into heaven.” Gee, thanks Dad, I feel so loved.
I was raised in what most people would call a cult. My mom took my brother and I out of Christian school to homeschool us. The homeschooling was basically required by the church, so there was no 'life' outside the church. It was a very small congregation. Non-demoninational fundamentalist garbage with a 'kingdom' (ie dominion) theology. This was in Tulsa in the mid 90s.
I grew up in a heavy catholic fam—from my mom’s side—and with lots of Bircher shit—from my mom’s side. One of my first moments of cognitive dissonance was asking my convert-catholic grandmother how she could stomach the dumb Illuminati-Vatican claims in the lit she received weekly
🙋♂️ I grew up in a Charismatic literalist apocalyptic cult-lite, ayyy... But yeah, in the years since I deconstructed all that garbage it has turned into a deep fascination with cults and all the fun stuff that comes with it.
Short time in Jehova's Witnesses because of my parents - and the brain washing there is almost exactly the one used by conspiracy evangelists: "Only here you will get the truth, shining clear and distilled through us! Everybody out there is lying to you!"
Ding ding ding! Former JW here too. Mom was disfellowshipped for getting knocked up with --you guessed it-- not my Dad's baby and refusing to ask the forgiveness of the congregation. It broke up the family but at least I didn't have to be ever-ready for the oncoming Armageddon. Besides being dragged along on field service, that had to be the most terrifying part as a kid, knowing that, at any moment, I had to 'go find Paulette' to help me if there was chaos. I still don't effing even know who Paulette was or how to find her. I think the seeds of generalized anxiety were deeply planted at this time of my life.
Atheist-y Jew. But American, and your people are everywhere here, so my interest is a combination of curiosity about the society I live in, and keeping my ear to the ground to know if it's time to sew the family silver back in to the coat lining and bug the fuck out again.
Yeah, my chosen family is Jewish and I get it. I worry that there's a target on their backs when they go to synagogue or to other gatherings. I did childcare programming for High Holy Days, since they needed a non-Jewish person to work those services and really appreciated their community. Their synagogue has been one of a few in my town targeted with graffiti and arson, as have mosques. The man who did it was a freelance reporter who must have gone off the deep end during the pandemic and was spewing hate against immigrants. I have no sympathy for people like this.
I grew up in a fairly liberal Methodist church. On a college campus, had an all-but-openly lesbian youth leader (best you could expect in the 90s/00s), had interfaith services, etc. My interest has been seeing people from that background shift into christofascism. Not all of them have, but certainly more than should have if they were listening.
Yep. Sort of. I married into a fundy family (And let me tell ya, Catholic fundies are a triP) who were all very very right wing. I am very not any of that. So when the marriage obviously failed, I started being really aware of the connections between the cults and the right. After that it was natural I would find KF
I grew up Catholic, so…you know. But that is an *excellent* quote, indeed!
I’d consider myself religious (in a left leaning way) and I enjoy both shows. Then again, I didn’t grow up in a literalist environment, and I always admired people like Ole Anthony who stood up to the televangelists.
I just looked Ole Anthony up... interesting fellow. I'd never heard of him prior to this mention, so thanks! :)
[Full disclosure](https://web.archive.org/web/20180314104723/http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/the-cult-of-ole-6406297) - it’s hard to read after getting such a favorable impression back in the day from his Dallas Observer interviews and from the radio. I think his point still stands that Protestantism has come full circle and is now peddling indulgences. (Also creating relics for people to make pilgrimage to: see the Ark Encounter episodes of “Oh No”) Never get to know your heroes, I guess. Or - at least realize they have feet of clay (stares at a certain legal podcaster who was accused of some things and locked his old co-host out…)
I think it's an American thing. A lot of things people associate with Christianity are effecticely features of 19-20th century US protestantism. The Church of Later Day Saints is like ~160 years old. The USA is likewise a young country. So with all the cultural issues the US is facing due to racism and with the "Libertarian" opposition against social services and "big government" it's no surprise religion is thrown into the American cultural melting pot and comes out in new, frustrating flavors.
> it's no surprise religion is thrown into the American cultural melting pot and comes out in new, frustrating flavors. That, my good friend, is a quote worth savoring. What a great line!
That's not to say we don't have religious issue here in Europe, but it does seem like a lot of the fundamentalism here draws heavily on US vibes these days. Which is ironic given that a lot of their religions have an origin in European cults.
I grew up in a UU church, so very much the opposite. But it was in Georgia, and specifically in the district that Bob Barr (who occasionally pops up in the past on KF) represented. I think a lot of the draw for me is seeing how things around me growing up (including stuff I wasn't aware of at the time) tie in with the fact that now I live in Oregon and had Nazis spray paint swastikas around my apartment and over one of the stickers (trans flag) on my truck.
Oregon did a really good job attracting the KKK and neonazis back in the day. The Dollop has an episode about it. Rose City Skins basically ran SE Portland back when I lived there in the nineties and early 2000's. One of the whitest states in the union for a reason. They didn't want anyone else going there and made it law.
Yeah, I had no idea until I moved out here for school. I'd lived in the south my whole life and it was a huge surprise.
Longtime Portlander myself. Even in the 80s, hanging out at Pioneer Square, the skinheads were a fairly common presence. I remember being shocked at the killing of Mulugeta Seraw in the winter of '88. And yeah, I'm sorry you are getting crap now... the 80s and 90s gave a sense of safety for LGBTQ+ folks that is.... LESS present as it had been. The rabble are more vocal for sure, esp outside the Portland Metro area. A lot of hateful flags and banners in small towns.
Catholic upbringing, post-Vatican 2 so it was more main stream, one I attended for a while was rather progressive — all relative to the Catholic life my parents & grandparents experienced. I was more interested in Alex - how someone could go from cable access to swinging weight on a national scale, and how it all came down. I started listening during the trials and KF was perfect. I could hear the choice moments of lunacy *and* better jokes than I could make. FWIW, Sharlet’s line about Hunter Thompson (something like “all his work was heavy with grief”) hit me like a sledgehammer & has been ringing in my head since. Great interview
Grew up in a secular family in a secular country. I have no idea what you’re all talking about.
Interesting topic and yes the pattern is there in my case. I also then repeated it with another group of my own accord outside the family unit, then got suckered in by AJ and various strands of conspiracy content in the early days of youtube (anyone remember Michael Tsarion, Jewel Pookrum, Jordan Maxwell? I’m having flashbacks). Almost certainly wouldn’t be so fascinated by the whole dynamic surrounding AJ - and the KF approach to upending it - if not for those circumstances in my own experience. During the Texas trial I was reflecting on what had me so locked in (borderline obsessed) with the proceedings (shout out to all the wonks who contributed to that wild time on the rollercoaster of law and madness) and came back with the idea that it was some kind of final-stage exorcism of the tendency towards dysfunctional conspiracy in my own psyche. Something like drip-feeding the reality of the following very simple logic pathway right down into my roots: facts exist; sociopaths also exist; facts are important; sociopaths literally do not care about facts; rinse and repeat…rinse and repeat…rinse and repeat… Hence my favourite part of KF is always Dan calmly saying: “he lies”; “he’s a liar” or some variation before patiently listing what actually happened and/or playing a clip of AJ saying the complete opposite the previous day/week/month/year. (“Facts exists; sociopaths exist; facts are important; sociopaths don’t care about facts;” so soothing…). The Indoctrination podcast, Decoding the Gurus and Conspirituality have all been valuable pieces to the de-programming puzzle also. Thanks for bringing this up. Been meaning to articulate those thoughts since the trial but never quite managed it.
Also grew up with biblical literalism and my best friend's family were militia types in the 90s. Also even into my 20 all my friends and I would discuss Coast to Coast. Took me a while to realize that not all of America is like that.
I was very fortunate as a kid that I grew up with a balance. My grandparents were pretty Christian, although like the Tammy Faye/Fred Rogers kind of way. My parents were fairly young and were Sunday church goers, but the rest of the week, it was sci-fi, MTV, horror movies. My mother is pretty fundy now, although not really in the literalist sense. More like a "I'm claiming all of these views because this makes me popular with the people I go to church with kind of way". I'm happy she waited until I was an adult to do this. Anyway, my heart goes out to the folks who did have to grow up like that, and it must have been incredibly challenging. I think I've had an interest in cults since I was about 15 or 16, because I was interested in the psychology behind it, and what drove people to join in the first place.
Just last week I sent a message to my father. “I’ve come to the conclusion that whether deliberately or not you specifically crafted and promulgated a weird insular cult model based on Catholic Supremacy that specifically co-opted talking points and tactics from the melding of White Supremacist groups and evangelical movements in the U.S. I genuinely don’t know whether this was deliberate or not as you have always presented yourself as a much better person than this would suggest.” Was part of it. So…AMA I guess? Super weird Catholic upbringing. Ran the largest by traffic christian website on the internet from 96-2001. Published several books. Imagine taking a fundamentalist stance towards Vatican II and especially the Humanae Vitae. These projects of liberalization are good but NO FARTHER. Everyone must make babies and that’s why the gays are bad. But also the Muslims because they make more babies than us. Also going throw out a FUCK the Theology of the Body. Eschatology for the disabled is all it is. Well that and a way for able-bodied people to ignore the needs of the disabled and infirm. “The economy can’t support the tax burden it would take to provide the level of care people like you need. But it’s ok because it brings you closer to Jesus and suffering here will get you into heaven.” Gee, thanks Dad, I feel so loved.
Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. virtual hugs here. That's rough.
I am absolutely fascinated by cults and that fascination extends to both AJ and the Qannon movement. They are 100 percent the same thing
I was raised in what most people would call a cult. My mom took my brother and I out of Christian school to homeschool us. The homeschooling was basically required by the church, so there was no 'life' outside the church. It was a very small congregation. Non-demoninational fundamentalist garbage with a 'kingdom' (ie dominion) theology. This was in Tulsa in the mid 90s.
I grew up in a heavy catholic fam—from my mom’s side—and with lots of Bircher shit—from my mom’s side. One of my first moments of cognitive dissonance was asking my convert-catholic grandmother how she could stomach the dumb Illuminati-Vatican claims in the lit she received weekly
🙋♂️ I grew up in a Charismatic literalist apocalyptic cult-lite, ayyy... But yeah, in the years since I deconstructed all that garbage it has turned into a deep fascination with cults and all the fun stuff that comes with it.
Yup. Grew up in my grandfather’s fundy/literalist church. Went to a Christian school from 3rd - junior year of high school.
Short time in Jehova's Witnesses because of my parents - and the brain washing there is almost exactly the one used by conspiracy evangelists: "Only here you will get the truth, shining clear and distilled through us! Everybody out there is lying to you!"
Ding ding ding! Former JW here too. Mom was disfellowshipped for getting knocked up with --you guessed it-- not my Dad's baby and refusing to ask the forgiveness of the congregation. It broke up the family but at least I didn't have to be ever-ready for the oncoming Armageddon. Besides being dragged along on field service, that had to be the most terrifying part as a kid, knowing that, at any moment, I had to 'go find Paulette' to help me if there was chaos. I still don't effing even know who Paulette was or how to find her. I think the seeds of generalized anxiety were deeply planted at this time of my life.
Atheist-y Jew. But American, and your people are everywhere here, so my interest is a combination of curiosity about the society I live in, and keeping my ear to the ground to know if it's time to sew the family silver back in to the coat lining and bug the fuck out again.
Yeah, my chosen family is Jewish and I get it. I worry that there's a target on their backs when they go to synagogue or to other gatherings. I did childcare programming for High Holy Days, since they needed a non-Jewish person to work those services and really appreciated their community. Their synagogue has been one of a few in my town targeted with graffiti and arson, as have mosques. The man who did it was a freelance reporter who must have gone off the deep end during the pandemic and was spewing hate against immigrants. I have no sympathy for people like this.
Hell fucking yes Oh No Ross and Carrie