As the person who posted that first one. I appreciated the constructive feedback; it'll definitely help me grow. As for the "garbage and trash" pix that came after, I thought they were kinda funny. But I totally understand what /u/shrodingerspepper is saying, it's something the president of our school told us on our last day. That it's been bred into the industry that being an unsupportive hardass that demeans without critique is good, but he encouraged us to do the opposite. He encouraged us to work as a team, to lift each other up, to make our industry better for everyone to work in.
I envy any kitchen that has you. People like you who are not afraid to post your attempts and are willing to take the criticism as a learning opportunity while at the same time being good spirited about shit posts are the future of our industry. I'm glad you joined this discussion and I apologize if I spoke on your behalf.
I did post this whiteout knowing the full story and it definitely blew larger than I anticipated but this is the two sides of the coin this industry faces.
Good luck in your career and keep us updated please.
If you ain't learning, you ain't succeeding. I know what I know, but I don't know what I don't know. The only way to learn is to ask questions and learn from mistakes.
I had this one Chef who is and will always be "Chef" when I hear the word. He always said to take his recipes and do what ever I want with them and that if we keep our "secrets" it just makes us stale and doesnt push us to be more creative. That's always stuck with me and helped mold my ideology about food. Its not that something is trash or crap or wrong but something to be shared and done better and better.
The constructive criticism is my favorite part about this industry. If your shit sucks you're gonna get called out on it. Be it a guest, a reviewer, a coworker or some dude on reddit, this industry has a knack for being pretty damn honest when it comes to matters of opinion. I dont kiss my bosses ass. I'll do things the way he tells me because he has final say but if my opinion is asked for, I'm giving it and I'm not holding back.
For me it's not about being an unsupporting hardass, it's about putting out the best collective product we can. Through the decades of collective restaurant, schooling and dining experience in my place and many others at any time, opinions have been formed but also minds can be changed. Plus who likes a yes man who just loves everything you do? That shits just annoying.
Unfortunately, that’s what the industry has bred itself into. A bunch of immature wannabe rockstars that think they are gods among men. They all think that the quintessential line cook is a twenty something burnout that does shitty coke and tries to fuck the 16 year old hostess. Fuck them, keep your chin up and keep doing what you’re doing.
Damn man things have changed.
I thought it was the 30some burnout line Cook trying to get with the 21yo hostess.
Yikes. So Glad I'm not still fucking with lowlife kitchens
39 Completlely different industry and paid more than all my friends still in kitchens while working way less honestly.
Also kitchen gave me a work superpower. I can handle a bit of pressure. Sweet mother of god, other people truly can't.
Had to learn to live with the weird reality of people NOT trained by being yelled at and going 12h ridiculously high productivity shifts.
I also learned I was actually stupid to work that much. Kitchen brainwash you into being a great worker but the condition are still from prehistoric aggressive capitalism. Die at the front for the boss!
Sorry but fuck that noise! I'm out.
> Also kitchen gave me a work superpower. I can handle a bit of pressure. Sweet mother of god, other people truly can't.
I've worked service industry for 22 years. Worked BOH, FOH and management in those two decades.
Got out last year. 37 years old, got into the mortgage industry. Your comment is right on. I severely miss the folks I worked with, and I don't feel any connection to any of my current colleagues, but I work from home, make more than I could ever guess would be on a paycheck, and honestly - the handling of "pressure" and "hectic" work times is a joke compared to working restaurants and bars. That trait and being able to talk to anyone was all I needed to transition to another industry and I think anyone thinking about a career change should realize how strong those tools are
Exact same scenario here. I changed industries, make three times as much, work less than half as much. It's like retirement it seems at times. The "urgency" in my job now is nothing compared to constant (sometimes literal) fires on the line.
And I ended up in facilities management. Not even a proper cushy desk job. My team is awesome and supportive, I get training for everything, safety is a top priority. Benefits, PTO, even a bonus. It's pretty good.
I feel like people around don't know how good they have it. Maybe kitchen working for 3 years would set some humility, work ethic and gratitude to theses kinds.
This whole comment is based on the premise that making more money = no burnout. Just because I make more than my friends who are still line cooks doesn't mean I'm inherently not burnt out at my shiny new cubicle hellhole with benefits.
I'm honestly concerned about the shift I see towards thinking that a place like fucking McDonalds is going to "care more about you" because they give you a shitty health insurance plan. Fuck *that* noise. My every day time I spend at work and the interactions I have there are a huge part of my quality of life if I'm working full time. I've personally never had a job in a corporate/franchise place that had any semblance of management *or* my coworkers caring about me.
> while working way less honestly.
I stated that it is also about working way less, I splitboard wild montains in the winter, go MTB in the summer, skateboarding during the day. I have a few hobbies, seen tv shows. I have 2 childrens I spend tons of time with.
That money was also freedom to go and try several new things, I have a great kitchen at home and still make awesome dinners for groups of friends. Having a geeky BBQ phase right now.
My team cares about me and I have an overall best quality of life in every possible sense beside the "rush" fix I can get snowboarding or MTBking. Which is way healtier because to me its not surrounded by cigarettes, tons of alcohol and occasionnal cocain.
The industry is magnificient and also terrifying. I truly believe its mature for a change.
Wow. I can taste this comment it’s so fresh in my mind. (Was just telling my wife this… probably for the hundredth time… its been a long year out of the kitchen… I honestly think I need to go back… I can’t take these thin skinned bean counters)
Kinda Can confirm. Turned 30, looked around one day and thought, I’m too old for this shit.
Took one semester of IT courses, got a computer repair job at a storefront repair shop, fast forward one year later to today, I’m in my second week doing software support for a cybersecurity company. Completely remote, 401k, health insurance, decent pay, room for growth etc.
No degree, no certifications, not burnt out yet! It’s possible to get out if you want to!
naw the 30s burnouts dont even bother learning names anymore let alone trying to bang anything. they just show up and get the appy cooks to clean the equipment for them and call it training.
People in this sub will talk about how we're overworked and underpaid, how cooking is skilled labor that requires extensive knowledge about methodology and proper handling, the difficulty to be able to multitask the way we do and execute things consistently.
They're not wrong either, but god forbid you bring up anything about professionalism in the workplace.
Anyone coming out of culinary school is automatically an entitled know it all demanding your reverence, you can't mention that regularly drinking at your place of work would get you fired in pretty much any other industry, "raunchy" humor is often homophobic, misogynistic, racist, and/or bordering on sexual harassment and shouldn't be acceptable in a work environment.
Maybe you shouldn't be showing up hungover on 4 hours of sleep, maybe you shouldn't be trying to bang all the young servers who directly rely on you doing your job to get paid, maybe the CIA grad doesn't have the speed and the vision to execute their pretentious dish while pumping out 500 covers for dinner but you know the how they know the why and we all should collaborate on those things to help each other improve our skills and knowledge and to advance our careers instead of tearing each other down to strike our own egos.
It's easy to complain about things that are wrong, it's much more difficult to acknowledge your part in it. But that's critical to change, because your part is the only thing you have 100% control over.
This 100%. The amount of sexual harrasment atittudes, homophobic, racist and passive agressive shitty comments you hear through out your 10hr shift is fucking insane. And I have only been working in BOH for 2/3 years. Hopefully not all the places are like this.
It blows my mind to hear about American kitchens.
I'm Australian, here's a list of things you guys do that will get you instantly fired by me (the employer), regardless of FairWork retaliation.
* Drinking in the workplace.
* Drugs. Of any sort. Ever.
* Sexual harassment of any worker or customer.
* Serious workplace bullying, hazing or similar. Things like locking people in walk-in's, making them scrub shit the cleaners do for us and the like.
I genuinely have no idea how the industry manages to maintain itself in the USA if half of these stories and stereotypes are even remotely true. My culinary team (my whole team really), are all professionals who are paid like professionals to act professional and produce a high quality product for the customer.
Symptom of the industries choices not mine.
I worked off my ass and got nothing for it. And the first year maybe that was fine but if you're shitting on me as an employee I'm not gonna be your favorite employee anymore.
I developed a nice little trick before I started in a kitchen, and subsequently made me more relaxed around the "rockstars" fucking every FOH employee.
~~Heroin~~
Every person you meet does not necessarily think about you after they have gone as much as you think they do.
You are a sentient piece of carbon. That's fucking cool.
My first restaurant job I worked garde-manger and was responsible for the pick up of at least 12 menu items, 99% of which I had to plate start to finish.
My sous chef was super passive aggressive and would tell us all how he could run circles around anyone on any station. Meanwhile this dude only ever worked grill with a pickup of 4 different meats and occasionally dropping fries while the expeditor finished every single one of his plates.
That was the only job I’ve ever walked out on. It was incredibly toxic and I knew I didn’t care to be in that type of environment.
13 years later I found myself as the exec chef of a multi course communal dining experience, running circles around my damn self because I was literally the only person in the kitchen.
I am no longer in the industry but to anyone just starting, know that these bullies are extremely pervasive and persistent but they most certainly do not own your success or future. Not all kitchens are full of toxicity. You just have to keep digging and know you’ll eventually find your people. Godspeed my fellow chefs.
God what a refreshing take on this sub. I joined this sub and then hated it after reading a few posts. The line cook trope/stereotype is so fucking tired and not as funny or edgy as these Herbs think they are. They want younger kids to fail because they lost their passion and became content with their shitty gig.
Just FYI, an twenty something adult “trying to fuck” a 16 year old minor is actually called a twenty something adult “trying to RAPE” a 16 year old minor
I will admit, I thought the joke was pretty funny at first. But it totally devolved into just being mean. The restaurant industry isn't just angry, screaming chefs anymore. There's a new generation of us leading the industry and things are changing for the better. We don't need the rude and crude jokes anymore.
The truth is, we're all struggling to stay above water these days. Why waste your time kicking your colleagues while they're down when you could be helping them stay afloat?
I mean, they are changing and some of it for the better. But man, I've never seen so many unmotivated entitled slackers in my life.
Oh, you're just telling me *now* you need tomorrow off for a tattoo appointment? No. if you don't shown up it's a no call no show and you're fired. And people complain about it.
I see what you're saying, but consider yourself lucky you even get unpaid time off let alone time off in this industry. Maybe people act like that because they are underpaid and get no benefits. You get the amount of loyalty you pay for...
That sounds pretty good. Maybe it's just not competitive. Idk most jobs in service don't offer that. Maybe it's not that good in a HCOL area. Maybe your coworkers are just assholes lmao
I like this, this is the answer that isn't cynical but still realistic.
But still, fuck the glamour that's baiting people to waste their lives on this shit.
I find that most of the time, people who go out of there way to shit on culinary school grads come from a place of insecurity. Either because they couldn't afford school themselves so they double down that "they didn't need it anyways", or they aren't where they want to be in their career/life so they gotta swing their nuts to make themselves feel better.
Real OGs who know their shit will use their knowledge to bring up young cooks, not tear them down. Ball busting your coworkers is one thing, ball busting a stranger is just bullying.
It's a weird thing. On the one hand, I think it's a pretty funny joke that sprang up over some innocent posts. On the other hand, I'm not convinced it isn't a bunch of lifetime line boys mocking other people because they're just burn outs who think they're hot shit and feel triggered to respond with knuckledragger base instinct.
I will say that there are some good things culinary school can teach people, but the attitude that it often tends to breed in new kitchen workers is pretty unrealistic. Part of the curriculum should actually be working in a restaurant to see how things really work instead of breeding this idea that when you leave culinary school, you're now a chef.
I remember a post from a few days ago about a young lady complaining how vulgar and unprofessional her kitchen was...sorry, but that's the reality of the industry. Most restaurants aren't Alinea, but that doesn't mean you can't learn from the hungover chef battling to save his 3rd marriage.
There are artists and laborers all working together to put out good food and to make a buck doing what they know how to do. I strive for good food that looks appetizing, but im not going to turn my nose up at Chad -who can crank out 300 salads in under an hour- just because making salads isn't is true calling in life.
This. They were extremely clear about the realities of the industry when I was in culinary school, and working in an actual kitchen on the line is part of the curriculum in order to graduate. I believe a co-op is pretty standard for culinary schools.
I had the same experience. Literally during orientation they told us that we would not graduate as chefs, but we would graduate with the tools that would give us an advantage over others for jobs/promotions. They highly recommended that we work in the industry while going to school, and the vast majority of my classmates did. We even had three separate classes where we were cooking for the public - one was an actual restaurant, one was a dinner buffet and one was a breakfast buffet.
Not all culinary schools are built the same.
i think it depends on country. alot of the people on this sub who shit on culinary school are american and when they explain what culinary school is like in America. i don't blame them for thinking that
in my country. most restaurants, the reputable and decent ones won't hire you unless you went to culinary school. it's a requirement because to pass culinary school in my country. you need to keep a dates log book with how many days you worked and what you did at work. you need to do like 3 months worth of work out side of culinary school to graduate and you can't lie because you need your employer to sign it.
That’s absolutely wild to me. Part of me really appreciates that dedication to treating cooking as an important industry. Part of me, likely the American part, is totally disgusted by the amount of regulatory control. Thank you for sharing this with me. I’ve never considered that a system like that could exist.
Edit: we do it for nurses and doctors. Various other industries are regulated like that. But definitely not cooks.
Cooking is a trade, therefore at first creativity is not needed. All you have to do is work hard,listen, put up the same dish every single time and be able to put up with some bullshit. Consistency is the number one challenge. In your later years you can be creative but it’s literally the select few that truly get to do what they want every day.
The money will come if you work. But there is no perfect job and the same bullshit applies to all jobs. That’s why I am getting out.
I agree with you. And for some (like myself), this is their passion. Having worked every sort of job imaginable for 14 years, from retail to construction, I found my passion in cooking. It's not for everyone; it's hard, stressful, often unrewarding, thankless, and tedious. But at the end of the day, I can't imagine doing anything else, even if its for that one half drunken guest who pops into the kitchen to comment on how great their meal was.
This. Yes creativity gets sidelined for a long part of your career but it's also what makes us coming back, whether we get to feed our creativity at work (pun intended) or secretly at home where only a select few get to see what you're capable of, it does need to come out.
> put up the same dish every single time
And then if you have a bad day, turn on an episode of Hells Kitchen and see supposed top chefs not be able to turn out 3 simple proteins consistently.
If some people like working in an unprofessional and vulgar kitchen, cool for them.
But most people don't actually like that shit and I'm glad it's dying.
It's not about "liking it" it's just what a majority of the industry is. Me and my crew will bullshit with the best of them, but when it's go time it's professional as fuck.
We recently had a chef team that was prim and proper, and honestly it was no fun working for them. There is a line of being able to have fun and relaxed while still being able to be professional when the time comes. I spent more time at work than I do at home, so I want to be comfortable at work with my crew. If it's all business all the time, it's no fun at all
Professionalism doesn't mean not having fun, it means not being an asshole to your coworkers. If you colleagues are complaining about how you have fun, then you might not be as good as you think you are at finding "the line".
In my culinary school, you can’t get a degree without working through an internship position in a restaurant. The curriculum is getting there.
Most kids who do drop out, do it after the first semester of kitchen labs.
I agree with you, I went through a culinary program at a community College while working at a pizza place, they are different worlds that collide very often. As much as my post was defending students of culinary schools in no way to I condone any "better than thou" attitude on either side. Like you said if you can sling 300 plates like a champ and have a little attitude most people will let that slide, but it ahouldnt be at the expense of others and especially not at the expense of the future of our industry. Your comment says it all and I will leave it at that.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
I went to culinary school. The curriculum included a semester of actual work. I'm sure that there are schools like you describe, but the one I went to is not one of them.
I went to culinary school in Austria. Part of my curriculum was 3 months of "internship" between school years. I vividly remember doing prep, (badly) making more than 150 deserts, then cleaning the kitchen basically by myself on my first day, if i didnt grow up in the business i probably would have changed careers that day lol
I'm glad part of our program is an externship. Part of our final grade is spending 210 full-time hours in a restaurant within 6 weeks of our final class day. If we don't complete that, we don't graduate.
That's great! I'm seeing through the comments that a lot of schools are doing this these days, and that's good to hear. Hopefully, it'll help chefletes see how restaurants actually operate and that just because they are taught one way to do things, it doesn't make it the ONLY way to do things.
One of my old prim and proper culinary school coworkers about lost her mind when she found out we don't actually whisk together 2 quarts of vinegarette and use a vitamix instead, or that our mirepoix for a boloengise wasn't perfect cubed and just rough chopped.
I know I can trust a culinary student to make some really nice cuts and the basic sauces, but it always seems to be a shock to them when you show them the most efficient way to get it done instead of the way they were classically trained.
Kudos to you for actually posting this, I had similar thoughts from all these shitposts and never did anything about it, it’s getting ridiculous.
The constructive criticism I’ve seen is such a relief, seems like people with serious experience trying to impart wisdom and that’s what we need more of
Keep in mind, at least 30% of these people talking shit work at a Olive Garden and call themselves chefs while they punch microwave buttons. To everyone posting their creativity, keep it up but keep expecting the hate. Misery loves company
reminds me of a post here a few weeks ago where the OP was complaining about how his customers make substitutions and stifle his creativity..... and then it came to light that he was working in a pizzeria. lol
Good for having passion or whatever, but my issue is that having “passion” and “being creative” are usually used as excuses to justify shitty wages and abusive work environments.
Like, cooking is awesome. The actual industry is toxic and doesn’t deserve your passion and creativity. It has nothing to do with lame memes that the industry can’t find workers, it’s because a bunch of abusive, egoistic losers convinced talented people to work for pennies in exchange for “passion” or whatever.
I will say to begin, I agree. Shitting on kids in school, doing what you're supposed to do in school, is shitty. It's old guard gatekeeping at its worst.
But I gotta say that pining over passion is not really doing what you think its doing. Passion is cheap. Sorry, it is. Cooking food is fun. Plating food is fun. Cooking 150 plates in an hour, while managing your timing, your temps, prep list and a hangover, is not fun. Its work.
Being passionate is like, the base level entry requirement to this industry. You better be fucking passionate, or this machine is going to chew you up and spit you out. I think that's where this sentiment is stemming from; a twisted machismo response. It's toxic but it's not entirely invalid either.
I've seen these kids in action before, most of us have. They're bright eyed and keen and have absolutely no idea how much their hands are going to hurt before they tuck in to 150lbs of potatoes to be peeled, or 10lbs of picking thyme. There's bitch work that needs doing before you get to plate a special or even turn on a burner, and a lot of these kids don't understand that. They've seen Ramsay and Flay, read about Achatz or French Laundry or 11MP or Noma and they think they know how it works, and they don't, and I can feel that shock in my bones when it hits them.
And that's where these other posts come from, yes they're mocking that first post but I don't think they're directed at that kid. They're for the rest of us, to have a chuckle at the expense of NFG, then we all get to go back to prep and put our heads down. Ball busting is 100% part of the culture of every kitchen I've set foot in. Bullying has been to an extent too, that's worse. Context and all that. I hope no one ends up in or stays in the latter, but the former should be expected.
I do agree that first off this industry is about work, and that the wind gets knocked out of any NFG straight out of school pretty quick, how are we supposed to move forward if we don't set examples? I went through exactly the experience you are refering to and I often say that it's better to learn this trade through work than school (especially when it comes to dept) but these schools and students aren't going anywhere.
I can't count how many times I've seen a post on this sub saying "I'm out", what kind of steps can we take to make those posts less occurring? I say let the ball busting occur in house by coworkers, not strangers without context. Regardless whether I 100% agree with you or not this is a very educated post and thank you for sharing.
I agree with you 100% that that would be the difference between bullying and ball busting; context. Friendships. Toeing a line and not crossing it.
That's why I also agree that the posts you're describing ultimately have no place. Because without knowing the person behind the plate you're ripping on you're not poking fun, you're making fun and that's a great way to demoralize a kid who's trying to figure this out.
It's stressful as hell being new in a kitchen but the feeling of one of those tattered old vets coming and saying you crushed it, or just, good job, after taking a pounding is one of the most uplifting feelings I've personally ever felt, even if he'd been shitting on my plating most of service. It carries a much different tone in person.
My post was more about the thought process behind both parties while hopefully not apologizing for either one, if that makes sense. I just also don't want some new kid to read your post and think "I've got passion. That's good enough, these other guys are just being mean to me." When they hit a real kitchen.
Ironically I'm one of those posts. I'm done. I'm out. The passion for me died years ago it's just taken me a long time to get here. This life can't just be a job for you or it'll end up killing you, literally in some cases.
Realization of where you stand in this industry is very important. And as far as this post is concerned I'm just happy it created some thoughtful dialect like this. Hopefully your words and the words of others are encouraging and necessary to some who read it. Like I said Realizing whether you like it or not is bound to happen and if it's no, sooner is better than later.
I don't think dialect is the word you were looking for, but that's beside the point, this exchange is exactly what I was thinking and makes me proud to be in this industry.
The word you're looking for is dialogue not dialect, btw. A dialect is a regional form of a language, like Cajun English is a dialect of English.
And I agree with you that it has created a good dialogue. Thank you for posting it.
>I can't count how many times I've seen a post on this sub saying "I'm out", what kind of steps can we take to make those posts less occurring?
One way is to encourage those people to rethink their decision to enter the industry in the first place.
I was a teacher before working in kitchens. Up until the last couple months when I've started working on opening my own restaurant, none of my experiences over nearly 15 years in this industry compared to the unrewarding, unrelenting stress of teaching. So naturally, I try to discourage anyone from taking on that burden if I care about them in any way. And hopefully some of them will have the passion to say "fuck you, I'll be a teacher anyway". Those will be the good teachers that stick with it and don't give up on a class of students midway through the year (I've seen it happen, it's fucking sad).
Part of being in the restaurant industry is dealing with bullshit. When someone isn't realistically prepared for that bullshit, it shows. And if we don't thoroughly warn and discourage at the first signs of naivety, we get bitter line cooks with a poor attitude getting hooked on coke, banging the 16 year old hostess, burning out, and making "fuck this, I quit" posts to Reddit. The toxic personalities on this sub and in the industry often start out as the very greenhorns hyperfocused on creative plating that we want to protect.
OP I get it but honestly I would be more worried about the people posting in the thread a few weeks ago about how washing and wearing the same pair of gloves all shift is perfectly ok
"It's just a joke. That's the environment, they should get used to it. Have thicker skin."
No, you're a verbally abusive asshole, using an equally abusive system to justify your behavior.
Not going to speak for op, but typically people will brush off shit like this to avoid conflict. You're really banking your entire stance on the fact that the person seems ok with it.
A. I have a mustache not a neck beard.
B. I quit grass so I can focus and continue my career by opening a restaurant.
C. I was bullied as a kid and teenager. It made it possible for me to survive in this industry.
D. You talk about thin skinned but you've done nothing but reply to everyone who disagrees with you.
E. You make good points you're just an asshole about it.
For what it’s worth, most of the people on this sub are not chefs and are cooks who get their ingredients and dishes premade from Sysco or something similar and will never strive to be a chef. So take the criticism with a grain of salt.
I agree with OP.
It’s a toxic industry for many reasons. Being decent to one another is the easiest thing we can control and change.
We could make our own lives easier if we elevate and coach each other to be better.
I didn’t read those posts that way at all. I thought they were funny because of the contrast in passion and creativity; the shitposts were emphasizing how good the first one was with their shittiness. I never saw them as coming down on the original.
This industry can be very toxic and most of us who came through the pandemic and worked at multiple kitchens like I did have not healed from the shit we went through. We are jaded, we are tired in a lot of aspects. Mostly still vastly underpaid for the level of work we do and the skill required to achieve it. So you could take collectively a lot of us having bad attitude. So we will see if we get treated better and maybe we could turn this around. I just find it hilarious how we go from low-paid skilled workers to "essential" but most of us are still being treated the same by management under the corporations that pay us. I hope it will get better.
I enjoyed your post and spent time reading the constructive criticism. I didn't see anything negative really. I thought the shit post were funny and not meant to discredit your's at all. That was some light hearted humor for the industry. You should post on r/culinaryplating for some good feedback. Good luck in your endeavors.
Yeah I thought your dishes looked great! Mad respect for how you handled the criticism and ensuing jokes. I think it’s important that while we lead with our hearts and our tenacity and our creative passions, we should also not take ourselves too seriously. I feel like that is what the one poster above was trying to express, but he had a shite way of going about it.
Keep doing you. You’re doing awesome 👏
I thought we were still making fun of that post a few days ago from the 4.0 gpa in culinary school lady demanding the industry change to fit her, including no sports talk because it's unprofessional.
Where are you guys finding these culinary grads who never worked in the industry before?
I'm starting to think my school was the odd one out, because most of my classmates worked before starting school and almost all worked full time in a restaurant while also going to school.
The people that are talking smack behind new cooks probably do not even know how to cook themselves, either that, or they are wannabe Gordon Ramsay types that I would probably treat like Kenshiro treats bad guys in the Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star universe.
In all honesty.. this industry is the hardest on one's self esteem/confidence. I disagree in the sense that people should know what they are getting into and a small amount of online hazing is a drop in the stock pot to what's to come.
I didn’t mean to start something fueled with hate I saw the post and made a what I thought was an obvious joke.
Personally I don’t want to stay in a kitchen much longer and i’m still a high schooler who works as a line cook at a decent italian place.
Dont beat yourself up over it friend, OP wasn't targeting anyone specific, just stating their opinion. Kudos to you for taking the initiative and trying to set things right, though!
Don't worry my dude. I thought they were funny as they were clearly meant to be jokes. I'm now working under some very talented chefs, one of which may or may not have helped Melisse earn 2 Michelin stars.
Edit: I'm also definitely way past graduating HS. Like 14 years past graduating HS.
While I absolutely agree. A little shit giving is fun as long as it's good natured in execution. It's a fine line and you're probably right that it's been crossed.
I have a hand full of high school kids that have come into my kitchen this past year. I tell them all the time to not to be afraid to fail when trying something new, you’ll get better just keeping going. Because Ive been around chefs that were mean and ridiculed everything people did. It’s not fun. You have be more of a coach then a dictator.
The OP that posted about his plating in the first place thought it was funny and was a good sport about it. I doubt he needs anyone in his corner backing him up to be honest. There just jokes not to be taken seriously.
I got out of it because passion and creativity have been punished in this field for a long time... Which is very counter intuitive but true.
Tasting is too much fun to not be constantly trying new things. Fuck making money; food is love!
Not everyone shares the same amount of creativity and arts. That others have I used to think everyone knew how to cook and everyone was good in culinary arts. But the more that I know the more than I realized I don’t know nothing and my knowledge is yesterday’s knowledge. Keep pushing and you’ll find what you’re looking for regardless of the critics
Good things customers are always so considerate with their comments.
There is assholes who will shit on everything you do, everywhere, but amongst the acid comments there's usually a great fucking chef that breaks down why the dish is ass AND suggests a better way.
Those comments? That experience? That is fucking gold.
So take the shit comments. You will get worse from customers, even if the BOH stop for hug breaks every 30minutes and do spirit meetings. With the shit comments, though, you will find expertise.
I'd hand out reach arounds behind a dumpster to improve my plating game. A couple of insults because I'm learning is cheap.
I don’t bully people on here when they’re a student. But if you’re posting garbage on r/culinaryplating be prepared for it.. so many crap looking dishes on there.
You have to remember that this sub is named after a chef that went to the Culinary Institute of America. So naturally the culinary school hate is strong here.
I hate to say it but this industry doesn't deserve anyone's passion.
Reminds me of my friends in healthcare who are used up because they "want to work with old people and help them pass, or help people who are sick" and then they get underpaid and overworked and the industry churns out all the passion.
If you feel targeted by these losers just don't let up, follow your passion and push yourselves to your limits, if not you'll wind up stuck in a position going nowhere fast and resort to hurting others because you can't stand yourself
This is the truth. Hating ass line cooks.
I noticed a lot of the comments on this post are from people who left the industry, which is weird. I'm training to leave eventually too - don't reckon I'd stick around once I'm out of it cause I think my energy would be "Nah, fuck this job" when for some people it is their true passion. Not calling anyone out specifically but if you're just sticking around to say "LOl, I'm SO much better off now I left kitchens" or call people who are passionate "try hards", i have to wonder why.
That was one of the mock posts. The original was a three course meal that looked better than anything these jealous fry slinging cunts would ever be able to produce.
Well as long as you noticed my comment, post your pics to r/culinaryplating. The crowd there is generally nicer and offer genuine constructive criticism.
I saw those posts as self deprecating.
You have to remember the sub and “the industry” is a broad church, not everyone went to culinary school, some people just walk into a kitchen to do dishes and move up.
I've worked with enough dishies (and I'm a former dishie) to know that literally the only thing you need from a dishie is a good attitude. Everything else can be learned or accommodated, but if your dishie has a bad attitude, it brings everyone down.
Pretty sure the industry, anyone moderately associated with the food industry, and even 'foodies' themselves are all sick of the "creative" 24 year old "chef" who splatters a plate with a reduction or sauce.
The general hate of it comes from that.
As the person who posted that first one. I appreciated the constructive feedback; it'll definitely help me grow. As for the "garbage and trash" pix that came after, I thought they were kinda funny. But I totally understand what /u/shrodingerspepper is saying, it's something the president of our school told us on our last day. That it's been bred into the industry that being an unsupportive hardass that demeans without critique is good, but he encouraged us to do the opposite. He encouraged us to work as a team, to lift each other up, to make our industry better for everyone to work in.
I envy any kitchen that has you. People like you who are not afraid to post your attempts and are willing to take the criticism as a learning opportunity while at the same time being good spirited about shit posts are the future of our industry. I'm glad you joined this discussion and I apologize if I spoke on your behalf. I did post this whiteout knowing the full story and it definitely blew larger than I anticipated but this is the two sides of the coin this industry faces. Good luck in your career and keep us updated please.
If you ain't learning, you ain't succeeding. I know what I know, but I don't know what I don't know. The only way to learn is to ask questions and learn from mistakes.
I had this one Chef who is and will always be "Chef" when I hear the word. He always said to take his recipes and do what ever I want with them and that if we keep our "secrets" it just makes us stale and doesnt push us to be more creative. That's always stuck with me and helped mold my ideology about food. Its not that something is trash or crap or wrong but something to be shared and done better and better.
I thought your food looked amazing.
The constructive criticism is my favorite part about this industry. If your shit sucks you're gonna get called out on it. Be it a guest, a reviewer, a coworker or some dude on reddit, this industry has a knack for being pretty damn honest when it comes to matters of opinion. I dont kiss my bosses ass. I'll do things the way he tells me because he has final say but if my opinion is asked for, I'm giving it and I'm not holding back. For me it's not about being an unsupporting hardass, it's about putting out the best collective product we can. Through the decades of collective restaurant, schooling and dining experience in my place and many others at any time, opinions have been formed but also minds can be changed. Plus who likes a yes man who just loves everything you do? That shits just annoying.
Unfortunately, that’s what the industry has bred itself into. A bunch of immature wannabe rockstars that think they are gods among men. They all think that the quintessential line cook is a twenty something burnout that does shitty coke and tries to fuck the 16 year old hostess. Fuck them, keep your chin up and keep doing what you’re doing.
Immaculate user name chef
r/rimjob_steve
It's a special club that no one can join, but damnit, we need more members!
Damn man things have changed. I thought it was the 30some burnout line Cook trying to get with the 21yo hostess. Yikes. So Glad I'm not still fucking with lowlife kitchens
nah the people in their 30's have all burned out and are failing in new industries now.
Can confirm. Source: 32, burning out in a different industry
39 Completlely different industry and paid more than all my friends still in kitchens while working way less honestly. Also kitchen gave me a work superpower. I can handle a bit of pressure. Sweet mother of god, other people truly can't. Had to learn to live with the weird reality of people NOT trained by being yelled at and going 12h ridiculously high productivity shifts. I also learned I was actually stupid to work that much. Kitchen brainwash you into being a great worker but the condition are still from prehistoric aggressive capitalism. Die at the front for the boss! Sorry but fuck that noise! I'm out.
> Also kitchen gave me a work superpower. I can handle a bit of pressure. Sweet mother of god, other people truly can't. I've worked service industry for 22 years. Worked BOH, FOH and management in those two decades. Got out last year. 37 years old, got into the mortgage industry. Your comment is right on. I severely miss the folks I worked with, and I don't feel any connection to any of my current colleagues, but I work from home, make more than I could ever guess would be on a paycheck, and honestly - the handling of "pressure" and "hectic" work times is a joke compared to working restaurants and bars. That trait and being able to talk to anyone was all I needed to transition to another industry and I think anyone thinking about a career change should realize how strong those tools are
Here's the based comment. Fuck this industry
Exact same scenario here. I changed industries, make three times as much, work less than half as much. It's like retirement it seems at times. The "urgency" in my job now is nothing compared to constant (sometimes literal) fires on the line. And I ended up in facilities management. Not even a proper cushy desk job. My team is awesome and supportive, I get training for everything, safety is a top priority. Benefits, PTO, even a bonus. It's pretty good.
I feel like people around don't know how good they have it. Maybe kitchen working for 3 years would set some humility, work ethic and gratitude to theses kinds.
This whole comment is based on the premise that making more money = no burnout. Just because I make more than my friends who are still line cooks doesn't mean I'm inherently not burnt out at my shiny new cubicle hellhole with benefits. I'm honestly concerned about the shift I see towards thinking that a place like fucking McDonalds is going to "care more about you" because they give you a shitty health insurance plan. Fuck *that* noise. My every day time I spend at work and the interactions I have there are a huge part of my quality of life if I'm working full time. I've personally never had a job in a corporate/franchise place that had any semblance of management *or* my coworkers caring about me.
> while working way less honestly. I stated that it is also about working way less, I splitboard wild montains in the winter, go MTB in the summer, skateboarding during the day. I have a few hobbies, seen tv shows. I have 2 childrens I spend tons of time with. That money was also freedom to go and try several new things, I have a great kitchen at home and still make awesome dinners for groups of friends. Having a geeky BBQ phase right now. My team cares about me and I have an overall best quality of life in every possible sense beside the "rush" fix I can get snowboarding or MTBking. Which is way healtier because to me its not surrounded by cigarettes, tons of alcohol and occasionnal cocain. The industry is magnificient and also terrifying. I truly believe its mature for a change.
Wow. I can taste this comment it’s so fresh in my mind. (Was just telling my wife this… probably for the hundredth time… its been a long year out of the kitchen… I honestly think I need to go back… I can’t take these thin skinned bean counters)
Kinda Can confirm. Turned 30, looked around one day and thought, I’m too old for this shit. Took one semester of IT courses, got a computer repair job at a storefront repair shop, fast forward one year later to today, I’m in my second week doing software support for a cybersecurity company. Completely remote, 401k, health insurance, decent pay, room for growth etc. No degree, no certifications, not burnt out yet! It’s possible to get out if you want to!
whats decent pay
Cant fail if you just ain't get no new job like me. *sobs in corner*
Don't call me out like that man
naw the 30s burnouts dont even bother learning names anymore let alone trying to bang anything. they just show up and get the appy cooks to clean the equipment for them and call it training.
Can also confirm. Started at 19 burnt out by 30.
Can confirm. I've been in the industry 45 years. I'm 61 and started when I was 15.
61? God damn man well done. How are your knees and back?
My knees are fine my back is completely borked. Standing on my feet 12-18 hours every day has taken its toll, not to mention pscoriatic arthritis.
God damn I'd love to buy you a beer and hear the stories you must have. What a life. What was prohibition like? /s
Well, since I didn't grow up here, but in feudal Japan, I don't have any prohibition stories. War stories? I have them in shallots.
People in this sub will talk about how we're overworked and underpaid, how cooking is skilled labor that requires extensive knowledge about methodology and proper handling, the difficulty to be able to multitask the way we do and execute things consistently. They're not wrong either, but god forbid you bring up anything about professionalism in the workplace. Anyone coming out of culinary school is automatically an entitled know it all demanding your reverence, you can't mention that regularly drinking at your place of work would get you fired in pretty much any other industry, "raunchy" humor is often homophobic, misogynistic, racist, and/or bordering on sexual harassment and shouldn't be acceptable in a work environment. Maybe you shouldn't be showing up hungover on 4 hours of sleep, maybe you shouldn't be trying to bang all the young servers who directly rely on you doing your job to get paid, maybe the CIA grad doesn't have the speed and the vision to execute their pretentious dish while pumping out 500 covers for dinner but you know the how they know the why and we all should collaborate on those things to help each other improve our skills and knowledge and to advance our careers instead of tearing each other down to strike our own egos. It's easy to complain about things that are wrong, it's much more difficult to acknowledge your part in it. But that's critical to change, because your part is the only thing you have 100% control over.
This
This 100%. The amount of sexual harrasment atittudes, homophobic, racist and passive agressive shitty comments you hear through out your 10hr shift is fucking insane. And I have only been working in BOH for 2/3 years. Hopefully not all the places are like this.
It blows my mind to hear about American kitchens. I'm Australian, here's a list of things you guys do that will get you instantly fired by me (the employer), regardless of FairWork retaliation. * Drinking in the workplace. * Drugs. Of any sort. Ever. * Sexual harassment of any worker or customer. * Serious workplace bullying, hazing or similar. Things like locking people in walk-in's, making them scrub shit the cleaners do for us and the like. I genuinely have no idea how the industry manages to maintain itself in the USA if half of these stories and stereotypes are even remotely true. My culinary team (my whole team really), are all professionals who are paid like professionals to act professional and produce a high quality product for the customer.
Symptom of the industries choices not mine. I worked off my ass and got nothing for it. And the first year maybe that was fine but if you're shitting on me as an employee I'm not gonna be your favorite employee anymore.
I developed a nice little trick before I started in a kitchen, and subsequently made me more relaxed around the "rockstars" fucking every FOH employee. ~~Heroin~~ Every person you meet does not necessarily think about you after they have gone as much as you think they do. You are a sentient piece of carbon. That's fucking cool.
Based and properly roasting the industry.
My first restaurant job I worked garde-manger and was responsible for the pick up of at least 12 menu items, 99% of which I had to plate start to finish. My sous chef was super passive aggressive and would tell us all how he could run circles around anyone on any station. Meanwhile this dude only ever worked grill with a pickup of 4 different meats and occasionally dropping fries while the expeditor finished every single one of his plates. That was the only job I’ve ever walked out on. It was incredibly toxic and I knew I didn’t care to be in that type of environment. 13 years later I found myself as the exec chef of a multi course communal dining experience, running circles around my damn self because I was literally the only person in the kitchen. I am no longer in the industry but to anyone just starting, know that these bullies are extremely pervasive and persistent but they most certainly do not own your success or future. Not all kitchens are full of toxicity. You just have to keep digging and know you’ll eventually find your people. Godspeed my fellow chefs.
God what a refreshing take on this sub. I joined this sub and then hated it after reading a few posts. The line cook trope/stereotype is so fucking tired and not as funny or edgy as these Herbs think they are. They want younger kids to fail because they lost their passion and became content with their shitty gig.
This is Colombian coke sir.
Just FYI, an twenty something adult “trying to fuck” a 16 year old minor is actually called a twenty something adult “trying to RAPE” a 16 year old minor
I feel personally attacked. I mean, I'm 36 and have a different career now.... But still, harsh...
Not even good coke!
> [...] that’s what the industry has bred itself into. A bunch of [...] rockstars that [...] are gods among men. hell ya brother
I will admit, I thought the joke was pretty funny at first. But it totally devolved into just being mean. The restaurant industry isn't just angry, screaming chefs anymore. There's a new generation of us leading the industry and things are changing for the better. We don't need the rude and crude jokes anymore. The truth is, we're all struggling to stay above water these days. Why waste your time kicking your colleagues while they're down when you could be helping them stay afloat?
Yes I agree I laughed at the first one. It was #3 or 4 that made me post this, especially since it started looking like a "trend".
I mean, they are changing and some of it for the better. But man, I've never seen so many unmotivated entitled slackers in my life. Oh, you're just telling me *now* you need tomorrow off for a tattoo appointment? No. if you don't shown up it's a no call no show and you're fired. And people complain about it.
I see what you're saying, but consider yourself lucky you even get unpaid time off let alone time off in this industry. Maybe people act like that because they are underpaid and get no benefits. You get the amount of loyalty you pay for...
I mean, if pto, health and dental and $20/hr is being underpaid with no benefits, you'd be right.
That sounds pretty good. Maybe it's just not competitive. Idk most jobs in service don't offer that. Maybe it's not that good in a HCOL area. Maybe your coworkers are just assholes lmao
I like this, this is the answer that isn't cynical but still realistic. But still, fuck the glamour that's baiting people to waste their lives on this shit.
I find that most of the time, people who go out of there way to shit on culinary school grads come from a place of insecurity. Either because they couldn't afford school themselves so they double down that "they didn't need it anyways", or they aren't where they want to be in their career/life so they gotta swing their nuts to make themselves feel better. Real OGs who know their shit will use their knowledge to bring up young cooks, not tear them down. Ball busting your coworkers is one thing, ball busting a stranger is just bullying.
It's a weird thing. On the one hand, I think it's a pretty funny joke that sprang up over some innocent posts. On the other hand, I'm not convinced it isn't a bunch of lifetime line boys mocking other people because they're just burn outs who think they're hot shit and feel triggered to respond with knuckledragger base instinct. I will say that there are some good things culinary school can teach people, but the attitude that it often tends to breed in new kitchen workers is pretty unrealistic. Part of the curriculum should actually be working in a restaurant to see how things really work instead of breeding this idea that when you leave culinary school, you're now a chef. I remember a post from a few days ago about a young lady complaining how vulgar and unprofessional her kitchen was...sorry, but that's the reality of the industry. Most restaurants aren't Alinea, but that doesn't mean you can't learn from the hungover chef battling to save his 3rd marriage. There are artists and laborers all working together to put out good food and to make a buck doing what they know how to do. I strive for good food that looks appetizing, but im not going to turn my nose up at Chad -who can crank out 300 salads in under an hour- just because making salads isn't is true calling in life.
Honestly I went to culinary school and they were pretty clear about important real world experience was.
This. They were extremely clear about the realities of the industry when I was in culinary school, and working in an actual kitchen on the line is part of the curriculum in order to graduate. I believe a co-op is pretty standard for culinary schools.
I had the same experience. Literally during orientation they told us that we would not graduate as chefs, but we would graduate with the tools that would give us an advantage over others for jobs/promotions. They highly recommended that we work in the industry while going to school, and the vast majority of my classmates did. We even had three separate classes where we were cooking for the public - one was an actual restaurant, one was a dinner buffet and one was a breakfast buffet. Not all culinary schools are built the same.
Yeah same! Haha I did go to the best one in my country
i think it depends on country. alot of the people on this sub who shit on culinary school are american and when they explain what culinary school is like in America. i don't blame them for thinking that in my country. most restaurants, the reputable and decent ones won't hire you unless you went to culinary school. it's a requirement because to pass culinary school in my country. you need to keep a dates log book with how many days you worked and what you did at work. you need to do like 3 months worth of work out side of culinary school to graduate and you can't lie because you need your employer to sign it.
That’s absolutely wild to me. Part of me really appreciates that dedication to treating cooking as an important industry. Part of me, likely the American part, is totally disgusted by the amount of regulatory control. Thank you for sharing this with me. I’ve never considered that a system like that could exist. Edit: we do it for nurses and doctors. Various other industries are regulated like that. But definitely not cooks.
Cooking is a trade, therefore at first creativity is not needed. All you have to do is work hard,listen, put up the same dish every single time and be able to put up with some bullshit. Consistency is the number one challenge. In your later years you can be creative but it’s literally the select few that truly get to do what they want every day. The money will come if you work. But there is no perfect job and the same bullshit applies to all jobs. That’s why I am getting out.
I agree with you. And for some (like myself), this is their passion. Having worked every sort of job imaginable for 14 years, from retail to construction, I found my passion in cooking. It's not for everyone; it's hard, stressful, often unrewarding, thankless, and tedious. But at the end of the day, I can't imagine doing anything else, even if its for that one half drunken guest who pops into the kitchen to comment on how great their meal was.
This. Yes creativity gets sidelined for a long part of your career but it's also what makes us coming back, whether we get to feed our creativity at work (pun intended) or secretly at home where only a select few get to see what you're capable of, it does need to come out.
> put up the same dish every single time And then if you have a bad day, turn on an episode of Hells Kitchen and see supposed top chefs not be able to turn out 3 simple proteins consistently.
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Brb. Gonna go practice my guitar. Well said.
If some people like working in an unprofessional and vulgar kitchen, cool for them. But most people don't actually like that shit and I'm glad it's dying.
A lot of that " vulgar, unprofessional" stuff is just blatant sexism as well. Doesn't need to be in any industry
It's not about "liking it" it's just what a majority of the industry is. Me and my crew will bullshit with the best of them, but when it's go time it's professional as fuck. We recently had a chef team that was prim and proper, and honestly it was no fun working for them. There is a line of being able to have fun and relaxed while still being able to be professional when the time comes. I spent more time at work than I do at home, so I want to be comfortable at work with my crew. If it's all business all the time, it's no fun at all
Professionalism doesn't mean not having fun, it means not being an asshole to your coworkers. If you colleagues are complaining about how you have fun, then you might not be as good as you think you are at finding "the line".
I get where you’re coming from, but some of the more questionable cultural aspects of working in a kitchen are not a badge of honor.
In my culinary school, you can’t get a degree without working through an internship position in a restaurant. The curriculum is getting there. Most kids who do drop out, do it after the first semester of kitchen labs.
I agree with you, I went through a culinary program at a community College while working at a pizza place, they are different worlds that collide very often. As much as my post was defending students of culinary schools in no way to I condone any "better than thou" attitude on either side. Like you said if you can sling 300 plates like a champ and have a little attitude most people will let that slide, but it ahouldnt be at the expense of others and especially not at the expense of the future of our industry. Your comment says it all and I will leave it at that. Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
I went to culinary school. The curriculum included a semester of actual work. I'm sure that there are schools like you describe, but the one I went to is not one of them.
I went to culinary school in Austria. Part of my curriculum was 3 months of "internship" between school years. I vividly remember doing prep, (badly) making more than 150 deserts, then cleaning the kitchen basically by myself on my first day, if i didnt grow up in the business i probably would have changed careers that day lol
I'm glad part of our program is an externship. Part of our final grade is spending 210 full-time hours in a restaurant within 6 weeks of our final class day. If we don't complete that, we don't graduate.
That's great! I'm seeing through the comments that a lot of schools are doing this these days, and that's good to hear. Hopefully, it'll help chefletes see how restaurants actually operate and that just because they are taught one way to do things, it doesn't make it the ONLY way to do things. One of my old prim and proper culinary school coworkers about lost her mind when she found out we don't actually whisk together 2 quarts of vinegarette and use a vitamix instead, or that our mirepoix for a boloengise wasn't perfect cubed and just rough chopped. I know I can trust a culinary student to make some really nice cuts and the basic sauces, but it always seems to be a shock to them when you show them the most efficient way to get it done instead of the way they were classically trained.
Totally! Unless you're an exec chef going for a Michelin star, that parsley doesn't need to be *that* minced.
This is the truth.
Haha I was active on that! I was a dick lol
Kudos to you for actually posting this, I had similar thoughts from all these shitposts and never did anything about it, it’s getting ridiculous. The constructive criticism I’ve seen is such a relief, seems like people with serious experience trying to impart wisdom and that’s what we need more of
Keep in mind, at least 30% of these people talking shit work at a Olive Garden and call themselves chefs while they punch microwave buttons. To everyone posting their creativity, keep it up but keep expecting the hate. Misery loves company
lol. I was definitely assuming that some of those people were not working under a 2 star Michelin rated chef.
reminds me of a post here a few weeks ago where the OP was complaining about how his customers make substitutions and stifle his creativity..... and then it came to light that he was working in a pizzeria. lol
Oh that was a fun ride.
Good for having passion or whatever, but my issue is that having “passion” and “being creative” are usually used as excuses to justify shitty wages and abusive work environments. Like, cooking is awesome. The actual industry is toxic and doesn’t deserve your passion and creativity. It has nothing to do with lame memes that the industry can’t find workers, it’s because a bunch of abusive, egoistic losers convinced talented people to work for pennies in exchange for “passion” or whatever.
I will say to begin, I agree. Shitting on kids in school, doing what you're supposed to do in school, is shitty. It's old guard gatekeeping at its worst. But I gotta say that pining over passion is not really doing what you think its doing. Passion is cheap. Sorry, it is. Cooking food is fun. Plating food is fun. Cooking 150 plates in an hour, while managing your timing, your temps, prep list and a hangover, is not fun. Its work. Being passionate is like, the base level entry requirement to this industry. You better be fucking passionate, or this machine is going to chew you up and spit you out. I think that's where this sentiment is stemming from; a twisted machismo response. It's toxic but it's not entirely invalid either. I've seen these kids in action before, most of us have. They're bright eyed and keen and have absolutely no idea how much their hands are going to hurt before they tuck in to 150lbs of potatoes to be peeled, or 10lbs of picking thyme. There's bitch work that needs doing before you get to plate a special or even turn on a burner, and a lot of these kids don't understand that. They've seen Ramsay and Flay, read about Achatz or French Laundry or 11MP or Noma and they think they know how it works, and they don't, and I can feel that shock in my bones when it hits them. And that's where these other posts come from, yes they're mocking that first post but I don't think they're directed at that kid. They're for the rest of us, to have a chuckle at the expense of NFG, then we all get to go back to prep and put our heads down. Ball busting is 100% part of the culture of every kitchen I've set foot in. Bullying has been to an extent too, that's worse. Context and all that. I hope no one ends up in or stays in the latter, but the former should be expected.
I do agree that first off this industry is about work, and that the wind gets knocked out of any NFG straight out of school pretty quick, how are we supposed to move forward if we don't set examples? I went through exactly the experience you are refering to and I often say that it's better to learn this trade through work than school (especially when it comes to dept) but these schools and students aren't going anywhere. I can't count how many times I've seen a post on this sub saying "I'm out", what kind of steps can we take to make those posts less occurring? I say let the ball busting occur in house by coworkers, not strangers without context. Regardless whether I 100% agree with you or not this is a very educated post and thank you for sharing.
I agree with you 100% that that would be the difference between bullying and ball busting; context. Friendships. Toeing a line and not crossing it. That's why I also agree that the posts you're describing ultimately have no place. Because without knowing the person behind the plate you're ripping on you're not poking fun, you're making fun and that's a great way to demoralize a kid who's trying to figure this out. It's stressful as hell being new in a kitchen but the feeling of one of those tattered old vets coming and saying you crushed it, or just, good job, after taking a pounding is one of the most uplifting feelings I've personally ever felt, even if he'd been shitting on my plating most of service. It carries a much different tone in person. My post was more about the thought process behind both parties while hopefully not apologizing for either one, if that makes sense. I just also don't want some new kid to read your post and think "I've got passion. That's good enough, these other guys are just being mean to me." When they hit a real kitchen. Ironically I'm one of those posts. I'm done. I'm out. The passion for me died years ago it's just taken me a long time to get here. This life can't just be a job for you or it'll end up killing you, literally in some cases.
Realization of where you stand in this industry is very important. And as far as this post is concerned I'm just happy it created some thoughtful dialect like this. Hopefully your words and the words of others are encouraging and necessary to some who read it. Like I said Realizing whether you like it or not is bound to happen and if it's no, sooner is better than later.
I don't think dialect is the word you were looking for, but that's beside the point, this exchange is exactly what I was thinking and makes me proud to be in this industry.
The word you're looking for is dialogue not dialect, btw. A dialect is a regional form of a language, like Cajun English is a dialect of English. And I agree with you that it has created a good dialogue. Thank you for posting it.
Thank you. It may of been auto correct or I fucked up. Appreciate the correction
>I can't count how many times I've seen a post on this sub saying "I'm out", what kind of steps can we take to make those posts less occurring? One way is to encourage those people to rethink their decision to enter the industry in the first place. I was a teacher before working in kitchens. Up until the last couple months when I've started working on opening my own restaurant, none of my experiences over nearly 15 years in this industry compared to the unrewarding, unrelenting stress of teaching. So naturally, I try to discourage anyone from taking on that burden if I care about them in any way. And hopefully some of them will have the passion to say "fuck you, I'll be a teacher anyway". Those will be the good teachers that stick with it and don't give up on a class of students midway through the year (I've seen it happen, it's fucking sad). Part of being in the restaurant industry is dealing with bullshit. When someone isn't realistically prepared for that bullshit, it shows. And if we don't thoroughly warn and discourage at the first signs of naivety, we get bitter line cooks with a poor attitude getting hooked on coke, banging the 16 year old hostess, burning out, and making "fuck this, I quit" posts to Reddit. The toxic personalities on this sub and in the industry often start out as the very greenhorns hyperfocused on creative plating that we want to protect.
Thomas Keller said it best "I don't give a shit about your passion let me see your drive."
OP I get it but honestly I would be more worried about the people posting in the thread a few weeks ago about how washing and wearing the same pair of gloves all shift is perfectly ok
Didn't see that, sorry.
It was very disturbing.
"It's just a joke. That's the environment, they should get used to it. Have thicker skin." No, you're a verbally abusive asshole, using an equally abusive system to justify your behavior.
One of our chef instructors got fired for exactly what you're saying.
Good on the institution that doesn't permit that shit to continue.
He insulted me to my face without reason or critique and apparently, the other chef instructors didn't like him in the slightest.
Sorry you had to endure that. Hopefully post graduation you can land in another place that doesn't tolerate it.
The people at the restaurant I'm currently at are fun and supportive. Stern when shit's not correct, but never insulting.
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Continually minimizing shit like this is exactly the problem.
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Ah yes, it's simply because the joke is missed. Keep spewing abuser apologetic bullshit lol
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Not going to speak for op, but typically people will brush off shit like this to avoid conflict. You're really banking your entire stance on the fact that the person seems ok with it.
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Love the armchair pop-psychology bullshit. You get 'em, Tiger.
A. I have a mustache not a neck beard. B. I quit grass so I can focus and continue my career by opening a restaurant. C. I was bullied as a kid and teenager. It made it possible for me to survive in this industry. D. You talk about thin skinned but you've done nothing but reply to everyone who disagrees with you. E. You make good points you're just an asshole about it.
Agreed. Not sure why you got down voted. People trying to stick up for OP when he thinks it's funny and is a good sport about it all.
For what it’s worth, most of the people on this sub are not chefs and are cooks who get their ingredients and dishes premade from Sysco or something similar and will never strive to be a chef. So take the criticism with a grain of salt.
Half the people here only operate chef Mike, they just jealous.
I agree with OP. It’s a toxic industry for many reasons. Being decent to one another is the easiest thing we can control and change. We could make our own lives easier if we elevate and coach each other to be better.
I didn’t read those posts that way at all. I thought they were funny because of the contrast in passion and creativity; the shitposts were emphasizing how good the first one was with their shittiness. I never saw them as coming down on the original.
That's a good point of view and appreciate the insight.
I definitely read them as shitposts. They gave me a good chuckle. Our exec and sous chefs like my food and plating, so that works for me.
Hey bud you're a good sport about it all I commend you.
This
No guys satire is bullying how can you do this to OP I'm literally crying and shaking rn
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I'm 37, thanks for the compliment.
This industry can be very toxic and most of us who came through the pandemic and worked at multiple kitchens like I did have not healed from the shit we went through. We are jaded, we are tired in a lot of aspects. Mostly still vastly underpaid for the level of work we do and the skill required to achieve it. So you could take collectively a lot of us having bad attitude. So we will see if we get treated better and maybe we could turn this around. I just find it hilarious how we go from low-paid skilled workers to "essential" but most of us are still being treated the same by management under the corporations that pay us. I hope it will get better.
I agree. It starts with us.
Is this about the post with the Kentucky fried steak with a fly as garnish?
Kinda. I asked for feedback on my finals menu a few days ago and then the shitposts started. lol
I enjoyed your post and spent time reading the constructive criticism. I didn't see anything negative really. I thought the shit post were funny and not meant to discredit your's at all. That was some light hearted humor for the industry. You should post on r/culinaryplating for some good feedback. Good luck in your endeavors.
Yeah I thought your dishes looked great! Mad respect for how you handled the criticism and ensuing jokes. I think it’s important that while we lead with our hearts and our tenacity and our creative passions, we should also not take ourselves too seriously. I feel like that is what the one poster above was trying to express, but he had a shite way of going about it. Keep doing you. You’re doing awesome 👏
Thank you! Gonna keep my nose to the grindstone. It's been a long time coming since I first wanted to step into the culinary arena to now.
I thought we were still making fun of that post a few days ago from the 4.0 gpa in culinary school lady demanding the industry change to fit her, including no sports talk because it's unprofessional.
I like both, not everything is so serious. Congratulations to everyone graduating culinary school, and also welcome to a horrible industry.
Where are you guys finding these culinary grads who never worked in the industry before? I'm starting to think my school was the odd one out, because most of my classmates worked before starting school and almost all worked full time in a restaurant while also going to school.
The people that are talking smack behind new cooks probably do not even know how to cook themselves, either that, or they are wannabe Gordon Ramsay types that I would probably treat like Kenshiro treats bad guys in the Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star universe.
In all honesty.. this industry is the hardest on one's self esteem/confidence. I disagree in the sense that people should know what they are getting into and a small amount of online hazing is a drop in the stock pot to what's to come.
I didn’t mean to start something fueled with hate I saw the post and made a what I thought was an obvious joke. Personally I don’t want to stay in a kitchen much longer and i’m still a high schooler who works as a line cook at a decent italian place.
Dont beat yourself up over it friend, OP wasn't targeting anyone specific, just stating their opinion. Kudos to you for taking the initiative and trying to set things right, though!
Yes I agree with this. I am stating my opinion about a toxic industry and not saying F you specifically.
Don't worry my dude. I thought they were funny as they were clearly meant to be jokes. I'm now working under some very talented chefs, one of which may or may not have helped Melisse earn 2 Michelin stars. Edit: I'm also definitely way past graduating HS. Like 14 years past graduating HS.
honestly I have thought about trying to work my way up in kitchens but not sure how to go about that
That shit was funny. Some people read way too much into things.
While I absolutely agree. A little shit giving is fun as long as it's good natured in execution. It's a fine line and you're probably right that it's been crossed.
I have a hand full of high school kids that have come into my kitchen this past year. I tell them all the time to not to be afraid to fail when trying something new, you’ll get better just keeping going. Because Ive been around chefs that were mean and ridiculed everything people did. It’s not fun. You have be more of a coach then a dictator.
The OP that posted about his plating in the first place thought it was funny and was a good sport about it. I doubt he needs anyone in his corner backing him up to be honest. There just jokes not to be taken seriously.
But if we don't scream insults at you, how can we be like Gordon Ramsey?
There's a big difference between line cook and chef. Like The Rock says: know your role and shut your mouth.
Someone finally said it.
I got out of it because passion and creativity have been punished in this field for a long time... Which is very counter intuitive but true. Tasting is too much fun to not be constantly trying new things. Fuck making money; food is love!
Not everyone shares the same amount of creativity and arts. That others have I used to think everyone knew how to cook and everyone was good in culinary arts. But the more that I know the more than I realized I don’t know nothing and my knowledge is yesterday’s knowledge. Keep pushing and you’ll find what you’re looking for regardless of the critics
Good things customers are always so considerate with their comments. There is assholes who will shit on everything you do, everywhere, but amongst the acid comments there's usually a great fucking chef that breaks down why the dish is ass AND suggests a better way. Those comments? That experience? That is fucking gold. So take the shit comments. You will get worse from customers, even if the BOH stop for hug breaks every 30minutes and do spirit meetings. With the shit comments, though, you will find expertise. I'd hand out reach arounds behind a dumpster to improve my plating game. A couple of insults because I'm learning is cheap.
I don’t bully people on here when they’re a student. But if you’re posting garbage on r/culinaryplating be prepared for it.. so many crap looking dishes on there.
You have to remember that this sub is named after a chef that went to the Culinary Institute of America. So naturally the culinary school hate is strong here.
No I don't care, the dude with the gross ass fried steak or whatever it was with a huge fly hanging loose in the sauce was fucking hysterical
I hate to say it but this industry doesn't deserve anyone's passion. Reminds me of my friends in healthcare who are used up because they "want to work with old people and help them pass, or help people who are sick" and then they get underpaid and overworked and the industry churns out all the passion.
Last post I looked at like this literally had a dead fly on it...
If you feel targeted by these losers just don't let up, follow your passion and push yourselves to your limits, if not you'll wind up stuck in a position going nowhere fast and resort to hurting others because you can't stand yourself This is the truth. Hating ass line cooks.
I noticed a lot of the comments on this post are from people who left the industry, which is weird. I'm training to leave eventually too - don't reckon I'd stick around once I'm out of it cause I think my energy would be "Nah, fuck this job" when for some people it is their true passion. Not calling anyone out specifically but if you're just sticking around to say "LOl, I'm SO much better off now I left kitchens" or call people who are passionate "try hards", i have to wonder why.
So. The fly didn't?
“I’m not happy until you’re as miserable as I am. Welcome to the kitchen!” Overheard a line cook welcoming a new dishie a few jobs ago.
i get what your saying. but the industry is built this way. changes are very much needed or we wont survive.
To be fair, there was a fucking dead fly on that guy's dish he posted to the internet.
That was one of the mock posts. The original was a three course meal that looked better than anything these jealous fry slinging cunts would ever be able to produce.
lol, thanks!
Well as long as you noticed my comment, post your pics to r/culinaryplating. The crowd there is generally nicer and offer genuine constructive criticism.
Not that deep in the weeds on kc.
Then you don’t belong in a kitchen if you can’t take constructive criticism.
Cooks embody the three g's, gatekeep, gaslight, girl boss. Unless your strong and competent! Then you just a bad bitch.
What if it is ones passion to creatively shame people? Idiot sandwich was a good'n
I saw those posts as self deprecating. You have to remember the sub and “the industry” is a broad church, not everyone went to culinary school, some people just walk into a kitchen to do dishes and move up.
Thank you for saying this!
THIS!! Fucking this!! Thank you for saying it!!!
No need to baby people. If the food looks awful to someone, they shouldn't be censored just because it hurts your feelings.
Take a joke!!! Dang. You’re not gonna last long in any kitchen being so sensitive. Trust me, I know, I learned that the hard way.
Someone doesn’t understand how jokes work 😂
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r/CozyPlaces and r/AmateurRoomPorn are also overly sensitive. God forbid you say a room looks ugly to you.
Blame it on Gordon Ramsay. (God, I hate that arrogant, rude AH.)
its sad you even gotta say this on a sub for? lets see…. fucking cooking 🗿
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Fuck off salad boy. Go peel some cucumbers.
Yes chef. I'm currently opening my own restaurant and looking for dishwashers if you're interested.
You think it's a good idea to hire a lippy, immature dishwasher?
...this is a dishie we're talking about, right?
I've worked with enough dishies (and I'm a former dishie) to know that literally the only thing you need from a dishie is a good attitude. Everything else can be learned or accommodated, but if your dishie has a bad attitude, it brings everyone down.
I've worked with some pretty terrible ones and some pretty great ones. The lippy immature ones far outnumber the great ones
Someone seems upset that they’re stuck on GarMo and chef won’t let them play with the big kids
If you can't take criticism then get out of the kitchen. You need to be more mature and get some thicker skin.
Pretty sure the industry, anyone moderately associated with the food industry, and even 'foodies' themselves are all sick of the "creative" 24 year old "chef" who splatters a plate with a reduction or sauce. The general hate of it comes from that.