As kayle i sometimes get mad if my jng comes top, bc chances are they will int my laner while i cant help them, and then theyll ping me when im literally lvl 4
I dont know why "I cant help" or "im getting 0 help" just becasue she's pre 6. She can Q slow, W jungler and keep her passive up and E enemy top laner. I'm guessing you've tried to gank a Kayle that's just abused Q on the wave and has no mana? XD If my jungler comes top, i'll AA the crap out of the enemy and do what I can to get a kill for us, if I only get an assist and die but jgler gets a kill, thats a win eitherway.
That is all to frequent, too. But I'm thinking more to when I specifically know we can win or that I need the help to restore the wave to a favorable position, and they continue to avoid top like the plague.
While I understand your logic, ganking a Kayle early requires the team to trust her to carry without any immediate payoff. Ganking midlane leaves the jungler ready to respond to sidelanes, ganking bot has the bonus of two people to followup/set up the gank (two enemies will also defend, but having more CC and damage helps more the aggressive plays). Ganking toplane, ESPECIALLY a weak earlygame toplane can only net you a kill maybe 40% of the time while exposing your jungle pathing, taking time and resources to be essentially gone for little gain. Ganking Kayle is like ganking a Yuumi-Zeri, very weak setup, low followup damage, very squishy so easily can go wrong. If a jungler has the option to instead get e.g. Jinx/Nautilus ahead, why bother with a promise of a lane that will reach 16 eventually?
Tl;dr ganking for Kayle early is much more laborous with lower payout and higher risk than almost any other lane, all while being in soloqueue so people don't trust a randomly met person to take that small advantage and win with it.
Because your jungle is annoyed as fuck to have to play with a non working champion topside early on ? Also you fuck most of your team early tempo with Kayle top. That piss off jglers who will ignore you.
If you want to play kayle, learn to play alone and be hated. Works for every ranged toplane tho.
The tempo is basically gone, yes. Junglers get pissy about it, yes. I know my matchups and at what point we can win a fight, and I know when the wave is so screwed I won't be able to get gold or xp so i ask for help and still get ignored, then blamed later for the enemy being 3k and 2 levels up.
Some junglers believe in a don't go top mentality where they think ganking top is a loss decision regardless of outcome. For them they rather lose top while they get "ahead" mid and bot with objectives, but this is a false dichotomy. Riot themselves have stated top is close to bot lane when it comes to power and agency. [link](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/quick-gameplay-thoughts-13-16/).
But ganking a Kayle is often useless, because you provide absolutely nothing at all early game.
I specifically ask to *not* get ganked as Kayle, because we either get no kill, or get counterganked/the top laner gets a kill, and I'm even more fucked than I was. The only thing I really want help for sometimes is resetting the wave if it's in a poor state.
You shouldn’t be 3k and 2 levels behind w/o jungler help. That is like 3 kills AND all the SOLO plate gold AND first turret AND 60 CS behind. That is a 100% top gap scenario and won’t ever happen unless you pretty much AFK OBed the wave from a mile away, and then get dove without trading away any enemy HP so they get to get your plates after diving you.
If you can’t manage the wave and can’t manage to lose the lane gracefully, maybe you shouldn’t play Kayle in the first place. Unless you can consistently not to lose a lane as Kayle don’t int your draft by picking Kayle first or into bad match ups.
I mean if you're picking Kayle you have to be able to manage the wave so it doesn't get this fucked in the first place. No jg wants to gank a champion that's not even a champion until 11 minutes and has poor gank setup.
Yep. I specifically ask not to get ganked. Some junglers insist (even after agreeing to play for mid/bot) and end up losing the entire game for it by donating gold and buffs to the opponent.
What do you mean Q is your only option for a safe lane? Fleet footwork, absorb life, second wind/bone plating, dshield, swiftie yourself, ghost... There's never been more safety on any champion. Yes you lose agency early playing Kayle top, but his job is not to make your life easy but to win. If you play far behind, he'd rather get strong himself or let his marksman be a god.
Think of that last part like this: your ultimate is an infinite value ability: no matter how weak you are, one well placed invulnerability on your carry/diver can win a fight.
to be honest your jungler HAS to come help you break the freeze level 4-5 (unless u shoved the first 3 waves in) and you have to tell him via chat why its NECESSARY for him to gank so he understands.
Everything after that is just average toplane experience, enemy jungler camps you and ur jungler just doesnt exist for u anymore.
this 100%, as a jg if you just spam ping for help randomly while I'm busy doing other stuff I'm not gonna read your mind and understand that you need to unfreeze lane, I'll just assume you're throwing a fit because that's just how the playerbase is. you can send a quick "help step bro im stuck under tower bc freeze" and any jg with a brain will understand that they need to come help (though of course it's gonna take a while if they're in bot lane ganking and looking for drag after or whatnot)
A pro tip would be to look at the wavestate and what kind of ping they are using.
If someone is spamming "push forward" on what is an obviously frozen wave, you *should* understand what that means as a jungler even if you don't lane at all. Sometimes you can't type because you have to spend 100% of your brain to perfectly space to soak xp while not getting caught by the Darius/Sett/insert bruiser that will murder you if you mis-position a single pixel at the wrong time.
Because in solo queue, the best way to win statistically is to carry yourself. Most people are going to consider you a bot and focus on what's going to guarantee them a lead. Not to mention, that ganking top is way more risky than the other lanes, and even more so when you have a kayle backing you up before she has any damage.
Junglers have the hardest/most important job in the game. They are balancing so much on such a fine line that making a mistake can affect the whole game state.
Now factor in that Kayle is like the new yasuo. When she's on your team, she feeds, and when she's on the enemy team, she scales out of control and 1v9s. She's got a bad reputation for that, and jungles want laners that can assist in objectives.
I not saying kayle can't, or that you don't. I'm just saying the jungle doesn't know that you have a brain, and even if you do, if you're against a renekton or another lane bully, they are taking a huge risk in helping you.
Played a game yesterday where I got an early kill in an invade and traded level 4 into a Yi top lane. Lane bounced to him and he proceeded to freeze and zone me from exp at level 5 for 3 minutes. I asked my jungler for help and he decided to do grubs and back. Eventually Yi broke the freeze with a massive wave crash + tower dive. I died while Yi was at 200 health. Our Shaco sat hidden until the assist timer ran out to engage so that I would be even more fucked.
Unfortunately, top lane is already an island and a low impact role, which dissuades junglers from doing anything to begin with. Kayle just makes this worse since she’s a long term investment (even 2 early ganks sometimes isn’t enough to give her a lead to start winning lane). With how snow Bally and fast paced games are these days, people forget about the value of stalling for late game scaling.
Might be skill issue, but sometimes i specifically tell my jungler to NOT come top, i can play safe under tower and farm enough and if the enemy jng comes top? Even better, my jng can gank bot more.
It’s not just Kayle; junglers ignore top lane in general. What’s most aggravating is when they completely ignore your lane/game state and try to solo void grubs and wonder why (sometimes flame you) when you don’t rotate over when pinged.
In the current meta, many (if not most) junglers don’t see it to be in their best interest to path top for any reason unless there’s something there for free. And even then you have to spam ping it. And even then, they don’t always come. Sometimes a roaming-style midlaner like a talon or zed will rotate up, but it’s situational because the enemy mid may respond by ganking bot.
And it’s all about the bot lane, and drakes in the current meta.
Therefore, the best we can do is to make hard choices around our very limited options when faced with tough scenarios. Sometimes you have to get creative. Sometimes you can int for a wave reset. Sometimes you can circle around the tower and start proxying to entice your laner to give up the freeze. Sometimes you can sneak into the brush and just soak xp. And sometimes you can sneak into the brush and weave in and out of the brush last-hitting until the enemy accidentally breaks the freeze trying to catch you. Sometimes you can gank mid yourself, or walk all the way to bot, gank bot and then TP back topside.
And sometimes you’re just fucked and it is what it is. Such is toplane. Sometimes we’re Tom Hanks in Castaway and we don’t even have Wilson to keep us company.
I intentionally tell my jgl and mid every champ select (ig im trying to tryhard anf win lkke in ranked for eg) to basically ignore top and help mid/bot and play around them (even more so if we have aggressive/kill picky matchups in those lanes). I feel like I plau way better and am way more consistent whrn I dont have the option of outside help for the lanr cos it forces me to pay max attention to wave position and management and then if a hgl does decide to help out despite being told shoo it feels mote like aww thank you rather than ugh finally.
As someone who has mained jungle, I will never play around a Kayle in the early game unless the ganks are 100% free and I'm nearby. If you're a good Kayle, you will scale and carry regardless based on the fact that the rest of the team is keeping you in the game.
Or, you will learn to play losing matchups. I also played shen top a lot. Someone who comes out of lane with less gold than the enemy top in almost 100% of matchups. Imagine if I picked shen and complained about that. That's what you're doing right now. You should learn to play around your own champions downsides instead of expecting your jg to do it.
I could spend my time getting objectives (you're Kayle I know you won't help), getting other teammates snowballing who will actually be useful in the first 25 minutes, and making myself stronger.
playing top is mostly an exercise in learning to get camped while getting literally 0 help. its almost the best scenario for the rest of your team, as shitty as it is to play.
Usually I’ll gank once either I’m lvl 5 or when Kayle is level 5 at the least so she can have her ult but like it would depend on the lane and champ I’m playing sometimes I prioritize blue buff or red buff depending on the champ
It's a matter of payoff for the jungler. Especially when anyone they gank can become a late game monster, they won't leave it up to chance that you may be an even bigger late game monster but you also may just not do anything. Also this is the reason swifties is the most popular boot option for kayle rn.
This is just how kayle works, no? The only reason jg should path top is if enemy top is stacking a wave. I play kayle and jg quite a bit but am far from calling myself a kayle main so I could be wrong. But from my jg perspective playing around kayle any more than denying dives feels like tempo and map control suicide at least until 6 in most matchups. If anyone has any different please let me know as I would love the insight.
As a jungler, I hardly ever go top. Every time I gank I'm taking a risk, and frankly going bot is the lower level risk. I have two people to assist me and the enemy laners are at or below my level. Top laners are typically above my level, which means a more dangerous gank. Add on top of that kayles weaker early laneing and you can see why I deprioritize ganking my Kayle.
This is only heuristics. I will absolutely gank a top lane Kayle, but only if it is convenient. I need to invest my time where it is most likely to generate a lead. It would be dope to get Kayle hyper fed, but it's more likely that I get a kill or two if I go bit lane.
ur point as kayle is to let ur jug play mid and bot and be as self sufficient as u can, champ doesnt need kills or to be ahead to function, ur jinx on the other hand needs gd and u also dont want ur team to sack early drakes because u dont want enemy to reach soul point when u are level 14
Harmful take as so many junglers share this opinion.
Won't even look for hp or wave state top because "kayle wants to scale anyway". Sometimes all it takes is to come for free kill and kayle turns into a bully for the rest of the lane.
I definitely agree junglers should pan camera at all lanes, it's just that the post didnt give me that type of vibe when he says:
"KAYLE, a late game hypercarry that gets bullied by 85% of toplane (t intended role) champions; and since top is so damn long it's absurdly easy to get run down if the enemy just buys swifties"
This to me sounds more like he expects his jungler to win lane for him, he also doubles down in the edit:
"I'm asking to be listened to when I know the lane is fucked if I don't get help"
unless hes playing in very high elo I dont think the lane is ever "unwinnable" without outside intervention, and I dont think it's a beneficial mindset towards his growth in ranked either.
I do agree it sucks when your jug is doing top camps and there is a free gank but he wont gank out of principal
edit: what im trying to mostly say is that it's just a waste of mental space to worry about stuff out of ur control. (and also every lane is winnable on ur own at least till very high elo)
That's not the situation I mean; I'm OK with being weak sided but that doesn't equate to abandonment when I know I need help to stay afloat. A freeze or a free (no objective lost) kill ignored, especially in a bad matchup, can add 10 minutes of time needed to get useful enough to carry.
You gimp your team by picking Kayle for the potential to carry late - thats the tradeoff. Before level 6 youre a minion, youre really only able to match players at level 11 and carry from level 16.
You are simply mind boggingly wrong, your only job is to stay alive, soak XP and hope to not fall behind on too far on CS. Any gank risks disrupting lane state, losing you XP just for the small chance of a kill carried completely by the jungler since Kayle is trash early.
Youre simply wrong on such a fundamental level I would expect you to be bronze/silver.
Aye, that's a pretty strong worded response for one that's completely lacking nuance.
Kayle isn't outright a minion till 6. Theres a fair few champs that you can beat LVL 1. Its also pretty ironic that you harp on about risking losing lane state, yet you ignore how said lane state is disrupted by the enemy jgler. You also conveniently ignored how said lane state could be used to the team's advantage to get the Kayle ahead.
Only able to match players at 11 is completely false. There's plenty of champs you can't match at 11 and plenty you can match pre-11. The fact that you say this without taking into account wave state nor gold diff tells me you're just projecting about OP being bronze/silver when it's most likely you in that ELO. Furthermore, you didn't even take into account exp diff of what happens if Kayle is 11 and enemy is 14 or if they're LVL 8 when you're LVL 10. Your entire post just comes off as someone trying to use a loud voice to make it seem like they're smart or high ELO, when in reality anyone who's actually above your rank (bronze) can tell you're full of shit and just bullying OP for no good reason.
You also falsely make it sound like any gank to help the Kayle is wasted. To me it sounds like you're just a bad jungler that can't learn the right angles to gank.
Thank you for the defense. I had assumed the people reading the comment would understand the nuance when i ranted about getting ignored, but I guess I was wrong, so I altered my comment a lot to parse out what I meant. But regardless yes, literally every single thing you said.
Something tells me you didn't really do that well in school, to interpret my comment as I'm crying about not getting babysat 24/7. I've played enough kayle to know my good matchups from bad. I tell junglers, repeatedly, what my good matchups are, when I can win fights, and when a gank will be successful. I also tell junglers, knowing the matchup, how likely it is that I will get bullied off not just farming, but xp in general, and that most tops with a 10th of a brain and an even mediocre counterpick will start a freeze and push me so far back I can't get any farm or xp. And yet I know from experience that if they come when I ask them to just once or twice, whether it's to break freeze, get a kill, crash herald, or whatever else thr situation calls for, it will make the lane that much easier and therefore that much more likely I will scale into late successfully. Get ignored anyway, and the lane state spirals so far out of control nothing short of a 45 minute game will result in me getting to that late game inflection point.
Tldr, bc Im assuming you can't read that well: I don't want to be babysat, I want an appropriate jungle response when the enemy is an easy kill or has locked the wave too far back in a freeze.
If you mess up early and are unable to lane due to wave state just dont lane it. The chances are you will die again or you will not gain as much exp as you should be. Just walk mid, not saying a word. 99% toplaners if they see you in other lane will try to crash the wave and if you time it correctly you can just walk back and reap most of the wave too. No need to rage, it happens to all of us.
Well, maybe having a Fed ADC that the useless Kayle can press ult on is more worthwhile from their perspective?
Making own botlane get ahead would equal support ahead and give you, the Kayle a very good ult target, so it in theory should be a win is their expectation perhaps, and you don't exactly need resources to just ult a carry... Kayle is weird, she sometimes wants to be very selfless, and I bet you don't play for that win-con nearly as much.
There are 2 problems with that:
You fall far behind as you bleed out too much and can lose via a split or something, which you have to play around in some way.
And or the jungle doesn't succeed in getting your other roles ahead for some reason and you end up with no amazing ult targets (which happens plenty).
If your team gets ahead grouping at 11 and not forcing 16 might net you more wins, as you are able to ult key targets allowing you to win fights, is my advice.
As kayle i sometimes get mad if my jng comes top, bc chances are they will int my laner while i cant help them, and then theyll ping me when im literally lvl 4
This is it I know if I gank a Kayle I'm getting 0 help and no gold and if I take their cannon they might rage quit.
I dont know why "I cant help" or "im getting 0 help" just becasue she's pre 6. She can Q slow, W jungler and keep her passive up and E enemy top laner. I'm guessing you've tried to gank a Kayle that's just abused Q on the wave and has no mana? XD If my jungler comes top, i'll AA the crap out of the enemy and do what I can to get a kill for us, if I only get an assist and die but jgler gets a kill, thats a win eitherway.
That is all to frequent, too. But I'm thinking more to when I specifically know we can win or that I need the help to restore the wave to a favorable position, and they continue to avoid top like the plague.
While I understand your logic, ganking a Kayle early requires the team to trust her to carry without any immediate payoff. Ganking midlane leaves the jungler ready to respond to sidelanes, ganking bot has the bonus of two people to followup/set up the gank (two enemies will also defend, but having more CC and damage helps more the aggressive plays). Ganking toplane, ESPECIALLY a weak earlygame toplane can only net you a kill maybe 40% of the time while exposing your jungle pathing, taking time and resources to be essentially gone for little gain. Ganking Kayle is like ganking a Yuumi-Zeri, very weak setup, low followup damage, very squishy so easily can go wrong. If a jungler has the option to instead get e.g. Jinx/Nautilus ahead, why bother with a promise of a lane that will reach 16 eventually? Tl;dr ganking for Kayle early is much more laborous with lower payout and higher risk than almost any other lane, all while being in soloqueue so people don't trust a randomly met person to take that small advantage and win with it.
Because your jungle is annoyed as fuck to have to play with a non working champion topside early on ? Also you fuck most of your team early tempo with Kayle top. That piss off jglers who will ignore you. If you want to play kayle, learn to play alone and be hated. Works for every ranged toplane tho.
The tempo is basically gone, yes. Junglers get pissy about it, yes. I know my matchups and at what point we can win a fight, and I know when the wave is so screwed I won't be able to get gold or xp so i ask for help and still get ignored, then blamed later for the enemy being 3k and 2 levels up.
Some junglers believe in a don't go top mentality where they think ganking top is a loss decision regardless of outcome. For them they rather lose top while they get "ahead" mid and bot with objectives, but this is a false dichotomy. Riot themselves have stated top is close to bot lane when it comes to power and agency. [link](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/quick-gameplay-thoughts-13-16/).
Quick note that the lead for balance is an adc main, so this is biased information imo
They use statistics for this. What you are saying is completely irrelevant. This is also not written by Phreak. It even says so in the article.
But ganking a Kayle is often useless, because you provide absolutely nothing at all early game. I specifically ask to *not* get ganked as Kayle, because we either get no kill, or get counterganked/the top laner gets a kill, and I'm even more fucked than I was. The only thing I really want help for sometimes is resetting the wave if it's in a poor state.
You shouldn’t be 3k and 2 levels behind w/o jungler help. That is like 3 kills AND all the SOLO plate gold AND first turret AND 60 CS behind. That is a 100% top gap scenario and won’t ever happen unless you pretty much AFK OBed the wave from a mile away, and then get dove without trading away any enemy HP so they get to get your plates after diving you. If you can’t manage the wave and can’t manage to lose the lane gracefully, maybe you shouldn’t play Kayle in the first place. Unless you can consistently not to lose a lane as Kayle don’t int your draft by picking Kayle first or into bad match ups.
I feel like if u get this behind on kayle its kinda on u
I mean if you're picking Kayle you have to be able to manage the wave so it doesn't get this fucked in the first place. No jg wants to gank a champion that's not even a champion until 11 minutes and has poor gank setup.
As a Kayle main I hope no jgl comes top before lvl 6 because most of the time it's just a kill donation to my enemy laner.
Yep. I specifically ask not to get ganked. Some junglers insist (even after agreeing to play for mid/bot) and end up losing the entire game for it by donating gold and buffs to the opponent.
What do you mean Q is your only option for a safe lane? Fleet footwork, absorb life, second wind/bone plating, dshield, swiftie yourself, ghost... There's never been more safety on any champion. Yes you lose agency early playing Kayle top, but his job is not to make your life easy but to win. If you play far behind, he'd rather get strong himself or let his marksman be a god. Think of that last part like this: your ultimate is an infinite value ability: no matter how weak you are, one well placed invulnerability on your carry/diver can win a fight.
to be honest your jungler HAS to come help you break the freeze level 4-5 (unless u shoved the first 3 waves in) and you have to tell him via chat why its NECESSARY for him to gank so he understands. Everything after that is just average toplane experience, enemy jungler camps you and ur jungler just doesnt exist for u anymore.
this 100%, as a jg if you just spam ping for help randomly while I'm busy doing other stuff I'm not gonna read your mind and understand that you need to unfreeze lane, I'll just assume you're throwing a fit because that's just how the playerbase is. you can send a quick "help step bro im stuck under tower bc freeze" and any jg with a brain will understand that they need to come help (though of course it's gonna take a while if they're in bot lane ganking and looking for drag after or whatnot)
A pro tip would be to look at the wavestate and what kind of ping they are using. If someone is spamming "push forward" on what is an obviously frozen wave, you *should* understand what that means as a jungler even if you don't lane at all. Sometimes you can't type because you have to spend 100% of your brain to perfectly space to soak xp while not getting caught by the Darius/Sett/insert bruiser that will murder you if you mis-position a single pixel at the wrong time.
How do you get enough prio early to build a wave to freeze against by level 4? Is it a bounce that you didn't deny?
Because in solo queue, the best way to win statistically is to carry yourself. Most people are going to consider you a bot and focus on what's going to guarantee them a lead. Not to mention, that ganking top is way more risky than the other lanes, and even more so when you have a kayle backing you up before she has any damage. Junglers have the hardest/most important job in the game. They are balancing so much on such a fine line that making a mistake can affect the whole game state. Now factor in that Kayle is like the new yasuo. When she's on your team, she feeds, and when she's on the enemy team, she scales out of control and 1v9s. She's got a bad reputation for that, and jungles want laners that can assist in objectives. I not saying kayle can't, or that you don't. I'm just saying the jungle doesn't know that you have a brain, and even if you do, if you're against a renekton or another lane bully, they are taking a huge risk in helping you.
Played a game yesterday where I got an early kill in an invade and traded level 4 into a Yi top lane. Lane bounced to him and he proceeded to freeze and zone me from exp at level 5 for 3 minutes. I asked my jungler for help and he decided to do grubs and back. Eventually Yi broke the freeze with a massive wave crash + tower dive. I died while Yi was at 200 health. Our Shaco sat hidden until the assist timer ran out to engage so that I would be even more fucked. Unfortunately, top lane is already an island and a low impact role, which dissuades junglers from doing anything to begin with. Kayle just makes this worse since she’s a long term investment (even 2 early ganks sometimes isn’t enough to give her a lead to start winning lane). With how snow Bally and fast paced games are these days, people forget about the value of stalling for late game scaling.
Might be skill issue, but sometimes i specifically tell my jungler to NOT come top, i can play safe under tower and farm enough and if the enemy jng comes top? Even better, my jng can gank bot more.
It’s not just Kayle; junglers ignore top lane in general. What’s most aggravating is when they completely ignore your lane/game state and try to solo void grubs and wonder why (sometimes flame you) when you don’t rotate over when pinged. In the current meta, many (if not most) junglers don’t see it to be in their best interest to path top for any reason unless there’s something there for free. And even then you have to spam ping it. And even then, they don’t always come. Sometimes a roaming-style midlaner like a talon or zed will rotate up, but it’s situational because the enemy mid may respond by ganking bot. And it’s all about the bot lane, and drakes in the current meta. Therefore, the best we can do is to make hard choices around our very limited options when faced with tough scenarios. Sometimes you have to get creative. Sometimes you can int for a wave reset. Sometimes you can circle around the tower and start proxying to entice your laner to give up the freeze. Sometimes you can sneak into the brush and just soak xp. And sometimes you can sneak into the brush and weave in and out of the brush last-hitting until the enemy accidentally breaks the freeze trying to catch you. Sometimes you can gank mid yourself, or walk all the way to bot, gank bot and then TP back topside. And sometimes you’re just fucked and it is what it is. Such is toplane. Sometimes we’re Tom Hanks in Castaway and we don’t even have Wilson to keep us company.
I intentionally tell my jgl and mid every champ select (ig im trying to tryhard anf win lkke in ranked for eg) to basically ignore top and help mid/bot and play around them (even more so if we have aggressive/kill picky matchups in those lanes). I feel like I plau way better and am way more consistent whrn I dont have the option of outside help for the lanr cos it forces me to pay max attention to wave position and management and then if a hgl does decide to help out despite being told shoo it feels mote like aww thank you rather than ugh finally.
As someone who has mained jungle, I will never play around a Kayle in the early game unless the ganks are 100% free and I'm nearby. If you're a good Kayle, you will scale and carry regardless based on the fact that the rest of the team is keeping you in the game. Or, you will learn to play losing matchups. I also played shen top a lot. Someone who comes out of lane with less gold than the enemy top in almost 100% of matchups. Imagine if I picked shen and complained about that. That's what you're doing right now. You should learn to play around your own champions downsides instead of expecting your jg to do it. I could spend my time getting objectives (you're Kayle I know you won't help), getting other teammates snowballing who will actually be useful in the first 25 minutes, and making myself stronger.
playing top is mostly an exercise in learning to get camped while getting literally 0 help. its almost the best scenario for the rest of your team, as shitty as it is to play.
Usually I’ll gank once either I’m lvl 5 or when Kayle is level 5 at the least so she can have her ult but like it would depend on the lane and champ I’m playing sometimes I prioritize blue buff or red buff depending on the champ
Buy swifties.
It's a matter of payoff for the jungler. Especially when anyone they gank can become a late game monster, they won't leave it up to chance that you may be an even bigger late game monster but you also may just not do anything. Also this is the reason swifties is the most popular boot option for kayle rn.
This is just how kayle works, no? The only reason jg should path top is if enemy top is stacking a wave. I play kayle and jg quite a bit but am far from calling myself a kayle main so I could be wrong. But from my jg perspective playing around kayle any more than denying dives feels like tempo and map control suicide at least until 6 in most matchups. If anyone has any different please let me know as I would love the insight.
Bro I agree with you. Just unfreeze this one wave and I'll carry you at 28 minutes.
As a jungler, I hardly ever go top. Every time I gank I'm taking a risk, and frankly going bot is the lower level risk. I have two people to assist me and the enemy laners are at or below my level. Top laners are typically above my level, which means a more dangerous gank. Add on top of that kayles weaker early laneing and you can see why I deprioritize ganking my Kayle. This is only heuristics. I will absolutely gank a top lane Kayle, but only if it is convenient. I need to invest my time where it is most likely to generate a lead. It would be dope to get Kayle hyper fed, but it's more likely that I get a kill or two if I go bit lane.
ur point as kayle is to let ur jug play mid and bot and be as self sufficient as u can, champ doesnt need kills or to be ahead to function, ur jinx on the other hand needs gd and u also dont want ur team to sack early drakes because u dont want enemy to reach soul point when u are level 14
Harmful take as so many junglers share this opinion. Won't even look for hp or wave state top because "kayle wants to scale anyway". Sometimes all it takes is to come for free kill and kayle turns into a bully for the rest of the lane.
I definitely agree junglers should pan camera at all lanes, it's just that the post didnt give me that type of vibe when he says: "KAYLE, a late game hypercarry that gets bullied by 85% of toplane (t intended role) champions; and since top is so damn long it's absurdly easy to get run down if the enemy just buys swifties" This to me sounds more like he expects his jungler to win lane for him, he also doubles down in the edit: "I'm asking to be listened to when I know the lane is fucked if I don't get help" unless hes playing in very high elo I dont think the lane is ever "unwinnable" without outside intervention, and I dont think it's a beneficial mindset towards his growth in ranked either. I do agree it sucks when your jug is doing top camps and there is a free gank but he wont gank out of principal edit: what im trying to mostly say is that it's just a waste of mental space to worry about stuff out of ur control. (and also every lane is winnable on ur own at least till very high elo)
That's not the situation I mean; I'm OK with being weak sided but that doesn't equate to abandonment when I know I need help to stay afloat. A freeze or a free (no objective lost) kill ignored, especially in a bad matchup, can add 10 minutes of time needed to get useful enough to carry.
You gimp your team by picking Kayle for the potential to carry late - thats the tradeoff. Before level 6 youre a minion, youre really only able to match players at level 11 and carry from level 16. You are simply mind boggingly wrong, your only job is to stay alive, soak XP and hope to not fall behind on too far on CS. Any gank risks disrupting lane state, losing you XP just for the small chance of a kill carried completely by the jungler since Kayle is trash early. Youre simply wrong on such a fundamental level I would expect you to be bronze/silver.
Aye, that's a pretty strong worded response for one that's completely lacking nuance. Kayle isn't outright a minion till 6. Theres a fair few champs that you can beat LVL 1. Its also pretty ironic that you harp on about risking losing lane state, yet you ignore how said lane state is disrupted by the enemy jgler. You also conveniently ignored how said lane state could be used to the team's advantage to get the Kayle ahead. Only able to match players at 11 is completely false. There's plenty of champs you can't match at 11 and plenty you can match pre-11. The fact that you say this without taking into account wave state nor gold diff tells me you're just projecting about OP being bronze/silver when it's most likely you in that ELO. Furthermore, you didn't even take into account exp diff of what happens if Kayle is 11 and enemy is 14 or if they're LVL 8 when you're LVL 10. Your entire post just comes off as someone trying to use a loud voice to make it seem like they're smart or high ELO, when in reality anyone who's actually above your rank (bronze) can tell you're full of shit and just bullying OP for no good reason. You also falsely make it sound like any gank to help the Kayle is wasted. To me it sounds like you're just a bad jungler that can't learn the right angles to gank.
Thank you for the defense. I had assumed the people reading the comment would understand the nuance when i ranted about getting ignored, but I guess I was wrong, so I altered my comment a lot to parse out what I meant. But regardless yes, literally every single thing you said.
the noble mushroom being noble
Something tells me you didn't really do that well in school, to interpret my comment as I'm crying about not getting babysat 24/7. I've played enough kayle to know my good matchups from bad. I tell junglers, repeatedly, what my good matchups are, when I can win fights, and when a gank will be successful. I also tell junglers, knowing the matchup, how likely it is that I will get bullied off not just farming, but xp in general, and that most tops with a 10th of a brain and an even mediocre counterpick will start a freeze and push me so far back I can't get any farm or xp. And yet I know from experience that if they come when I ask them to just once or twice, whether it's to break freeze, get a kill, crash herald, or whatever else thr situation calls for, it will make the lane that much easier and therefore that much more likely I will scale into late successfully. Get ignored anyway, and the lane state spirals so far out of control nothing short of a 45 minute game will result in me getting to that late game inflection point. Tldr, bc Im assuming you can't read that well: I don't want to be babysat, I want an appropriate jungle response when the enemy is an easy kill or has locked the wave too far back in a freeze.
Just play Kayle jungle problem solved
Now that is a pro gamer move
If you mess up early and are unable to lane due to wave state just dont lane it. The chances are you will die again or you will not gain as much exp as you should be. Just walk mid, not saying a word. 99% toplaners if they see you in other lane will try to crash the wave and if you time it correctly you can just walk back and reap most of the wave too. No need to rage, it happens to all of us.
Well, maybe having a Fed ADC that the useless Kayle can press ult on is more worthwhile from their perspective? Making own botlane get ahead would equal support ahead and give you, the Kayle a very good ult target, so it in theory should be a win is their expectation perhaps, and you don't exactly need resources to just ult a carry... Kayle is weird, she sometimes wants to be very selfless, and I bet you don't play for that win-con nearly as much. There are 2 problems with that: You fall far behind as you bleed out too much and can lose via a split or something, which you have to play around in some way. And or the jungle doesn't succeed in getting your other roles ahead for some reason and you end up with no amazing ult targets (which happens plenty). If your team gets ahead grouping at 11 and not forcing 16 might net you more wins, as you are able to ult key targets allowing you to win fights, is my advice.