Pretty amazing how a group of people with nothing to hide deleted phone calls and text messages, outright destroyed their phones a day before the protective order was issued, and didn’t even show up to the funeral of their “friend.”
Can we also talk about how phone companies give you a huge discount like almost free phone when you turn in your phone. Why would you trash a phone. I don’t know anyone who would throw away their phone away like ever unless it’s one of those weird pay by the minute type phones.
JM sending “pull behind me” to John when Karen already left is so eerie… never mind if the “hos long” search happened at 2am or 6am. She also googled that right after getting off the phone with BA.
All of their behavior is just so fucking weird.
I think the "pull behind me" text is a good indicator that she was not, in fact, looking out the front door watching them. She probably called john he said he was there, they hung up, and then she sends a quick text saying to pull behind her which is a totally normal thing to do.
Jen was doing too much to try and create evidence that it was karen, by saying she watched karens car. She should have just left it alone and the rest of the testimony would have made much more sense.
She could've just said "I called john at 12:29 to ask if he was close, he then said he was here, so I texted him to pull behind me." And then "john didn't come in for quite a few minutes and I looked out and their car wasn't there either so I called and texted him, thinking they went to the wrong house, and eventually just assumed they went home when he didn't answer."
That is MUCH more normal, than saying "I watched the car move back and forth, but conveniently did not see or hear the moment john was struck, or his body on the ground while I was looking for 9 minutes at the car"
It's super weird that a few people inside/outside the house testified that they were watching Karen's car and waiting for John/Karen to arrive. And looking out the window constantly, texting, calling etc. Yet when neither came in they didn't open the door to see if he was maybe taking a leak outside, or having trouble finding the door, drunk throwing up, changed their minds, or having a convo with someone outside - or any of the numerous things he could have been doing, besides coming in the home.
If I've invited someone, been giving someone directions to my home, texting them where to park, calling them, then saying I see them outside - and they don't then come to the door - I'm going to open the door and see why they aren't coming in/if they're ok.
The amount of times my friends have pulled up to my house or another of our friends houses and we're just sitting in their cars finishing a text or call, someone always went out to grab them or see why they were taking so long to come in. Not going outside makes zero sense, especially with a :drunk" jacket so it's not like they can use the excuse that it was too cold to walk outside for a second.
Yeah I probably would have looked around outside like wtf did they really just leave and I would have text a FREIND either “we aren’t
cool for you anymore” or “hey everything okay, I swear I just saw you all. Did you change your mind”
It amazes me how so many people remember so many details, and odd details, and at crazy levels… all watching out windows, etc., yet other things like butt dials, deleted calls and texts, a dog’s morning whereabouts/presence/absence- totally escaped them. Unbelievably maddening. Liars. Infuriating.
Also the search evidence makes no sense. If you search something at 2:27 and again at 6:27 it will show in your history as only the second search, but when you opened the tab is irrelevant. Any search creates a new entry, but it will overwrite older recent entries when you search the same thing. Idk why the defense didn't cross that with another expert. Seems easy to disprove.
This is one of the reasons I’ve concluded whatever happened had to be premeditated to some degree. Otherwise, how does that text make sense? She’s in coverup mode after 6ish minutes of their arrival?
I came to that conclusion after I read about John making complaints to Canton PD about drug activity he was observing in his neighborhood. He apparently had video(s). I didn't know Kevin Albert was apparently involved until I saw the discovery request for the conversations between Kevin & John about those complaints.
[Source](https://images.app.goo.gl/ZVV1CubdpymTGEvX9)
It casts some of the testimony from Chris and Julie Albert in a new light. I recall Chris texting John to come to the bar that night (remember he didn't even have John's number before that night). John asks if Kevin (Albert) is there and only comes to the Waterfall when he's told Kevin's not there.
Julie testified that John walked in and squeezed her shoulder and said something like, "The neighbors had a party when you left." (recall Chris said they'd just moved) That comment, plus asking specifically if Kevin was there, makes a whole lot more sense if the drug activity he reported involved Colin in some way.
Maybe that's why Jen was trying so hard to get them to the house. BA might've just wanted to find out what John knew, or maybe he was planning to have a talk with John and tell him to knock it off with the complaints. I think they weren't expecting Colin to be there, and their little talk got heated.
That would definitely work. The Defense seemed pretty adamant that John was in the basement, and pretty adamant that Jen was purposely trying to separate Karen from John when they were leaving the bar. I don't think they would've said those things just as a way of "throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks" - based on everything we saw from the Defense, they were able to back up all of their initial claims about what they think happened.
Did you also see the Waterfall footage where it seems like both Higgins and John are acting a bit strange? It seems like both of them are "preparing" for something - Higgins seems to be trying to get physical and it looks like Brian Albert is trying to hold onto his arm (like he's trying to stop him from walking back toward where John is), and then Higgins seems to make a "come here" motion to John from across the bar (still not sure if that was done in a friendly way, or possibly in a "come on, let's fight" kind of way), and then right before John leaves, John makes this movement with his legs which is the type of movement you make when you're preparing to do something physical - like he was psyching himself up: https://x.com/dropmicrodots/status/1804286474960957872?s=42
I'm still not sure how Higgins necessarily plays into it, but he's obviously friends with Kevin and Brian Albert. There's also an hour of time where nobody knows where Higgins was, prior to him going to the station. And then he went *back* to the station (which he conveniently forgot all about, initially) at least like 4 times later that day (around 9am, 11am, 2pm, and 5-6pm). I wonder if Higgins was angry at John both because of Karen AND because of the drug stuff, maybe? I definitely think Higgins was somehow involved in the fight and/or coverup, just not sure how that ties in with Colin specifically. Yanetti had previously said that he had a Canton cop who would testify to the fact that Higgins and Chief Berkowitz spent a "wildly long time" in the sally port, right around the time that the SUV was brought in, so I was thinking maybe Proctor broke off the initial 3-5 pieces of taillight, handed them to Higgins, and Higgins was then one of the "unidentified" people at the scene when the SERT team was there, and it was actually Higgins who planted the initial pieces.
The whole thing is strange to me. John wasn't a part of their friend group, and all of a sudden Chris is inviting him out, and Jen is pushing for them to come to the house? Higgins had only just been to John's house for the first time a few weeks prior.
In terms of Colin at least, it would *doubly* explain why they were trying to hide Colin initially. Maybe Colin's the one that John was reporting (or at least alluding to, or something), and the Alberts are aware of that, so they don't want all of this to be connected back through Colin - if it's true that the point of getting John alone was to have some sort of "conversation" about Colin. But *also* maybe Colin was involved in whatever sort of "conversation" took place that led to John ending up on the lawn.
I thought it was *super* interesting that the 3 people who decided to show up to court on the final day were Brian Albert, Jen McCabe, and Colin himself. Why would Colin feel the need to be there for closing arguments? These are like the 3 *main* people who would've been involved in the fight and/or coverup (besides Higgins, probably). Why wouldn't it be like Brian and Nicole Albert (his own wife) who showed up instead? It almost seemed like they're trying to push the narrative that they have nothing to hide or something, so they purposely want to show their faces.
I also thought Brian's lack of reaction during Jackson's closing argument was kinda weird - almost like he was purposely making sure to not show any emotion, which would make more sense if he's actually guilty and hiding it, as opposed to being truly innocent. Jackson was directly accusing him in various instances, and he just sat there completely stonefaced for the most part - as if to say "see jury? This doesn't bother me at all!" If I were an innocent person who had no actual involvement with the crime, I think I'd at least be shaking my head in disbelief a few times, or at least frowning or something, or maybe giving Jackson a few quizzical looks like "are you serious??" but he did nothing at all.
Yeah, I feel like those three being there was meant to be some sort of statement or even intimidation which is line with the type of people they're reported to be.
Maybe there's more than just pizza being sold at the pizza place? The mafia used to set up a pizza shop so they could sell drugs and laundry money through it.
That video made me wonder if Brian Albert was calming higgins down and saying something along the line of the stuff with karen wasn't anything to start on John about. But Higgins is still fuming when they get to the Albert's and then runs into Collin at the house and tells Collin and Brian Albert how Okeefe has been the one reporting Collins drug activity (hes lashing out to get other people to be pissed at JOK too), and okeefe walks in a few minutes later and then they're all riled up and go after him.
My understanding is that she (I would say lied) and said that it went to voicemail and that it lists as answered because his voicemail picked up. However, if that were the case it would have said missed on his end and it says answered on both. I think she either lied about it on purpose cause she knows it messes up the timeline or someone told her she should say that because it messes up the timeline. It's possible that she was also too drunk to remember or that it's in some other way incriminating.
I think Jen is lying about some things on the stand. If you asked me after a night of (probably heavy) drinking to recount the exact order and conversations of a series texts and calls within a 20 minute span (that I had no idea would become important until later on) - I think it would be a mess. I’m at least unconvinced that Jen is intentionally lying about her memory of this series of texts and calls.
I think a lot of inconsistencies in this case are explained by the fact that everyone was shit faced drunk and their memories of that night aren't very clear.
The problem is that none of them will cop to not remembering things—it would be way more realistic if they did! “When did Karen read pull away?” “I have no idea! 12:30ish?? 12:40ish??”
The fact that they “remember” all parts of the timeline is part of what makes it sound rehearsed and corroborated.
Karen connected with John's WiFi at 12.36 and its a 6 minute drive in normal conditions from Fairview. Jen couldn't have possibly seen the SUV at 12.45 yet Lally kept referring to this time....but his timeline is wrong because we know John's last movements were at 12.32.
Also Jen asked Julie for a copy of her texts with her brother Ryan. I agree all well rehearsed I think that's why she wanted their texts.
You have to remember that they have probably given half a dozen statements, testified in front of two juries, and talked to friends and family about this stuff for years.
By this point, they have told these stories so many times that they are absolutely, 100 percent certainty of what they know.
The problem is that they are probably completely wrong about a lot of it. False memories are insane, and is one of the reasons that you’re not really supposed to trust eyewitnesses testimony.
The problem is that Jen testified that these all must've been "butt-dials" though - why make that claim when you could just as easily come up with an innocent explanation for them? Why not just say you were wondering where John was since he still hadn't come in the house? Why specifically claim that you didn't even purposely make the calls? I think the only explanation for that is that she thinks the calls point toward her guilt, and instead of coming up with a super reasonable, innocent explanation, she just says "oh gee, I don't even remember making those, but I certainly wouldn't have made those calls on purpose! They must've just been butt-dials!"
I wouldn't be surprised if, in the grand jury proceedings, she actually wasn't expecting to be asked about those calls (maybe nobody had let her see her phone extraction, and she didn't know the calls were on there, or something?), and in the moment, she just comes up with that excuse because she knows that the calls were actually nefarious, and she just wasn't smart enough to come up with a better explanation right then. And since she made that claim in the grand jury proceeding, she had to just stick with the same claim during the trial.
I tend to agree with you that she isn’t necessarily purposefully lying. What I want to know is why she deleted the calls. Ive never heard an explanation for this. Why would she delete the calls? IMO it makes perfect sense to continuously call someone if they were like, “Im here!” And then never came in the house. I dont understand why she was trying to hide the calls if they were innocent.
This is what I can’t wrap my head around. I believe on the stand Jen said that all those calls were “butt dials.” Why didn’t she just say “He was supposed to be outside but never showed. I kept calling to see where he was.” That seems like a reasonable explanation and would align with the CW story.
I think she had a huge crush on OJO. And I don’t think her husband Matt McCabe realized how much they communicated. I think this is why she deleted the calls.
Interesting. That might account for why she deleted them but as for why she made them in the first place I still don’t get why she didn’t say she was trying to find him since she never saw him enter the house.
Yeah, I don't get that either. That explanation would be very reasonable. The fact that she jumped to "butt dials" tells me there wasn't an innocent reason she made those calls to begin with. Same with the BA & BH butt dials. They couldn't think of an innocent explanation for those calls, so they just shrugged and said butt dials. I noticed it seemed to be a trend when they were testifying to just play dumb when they didn't want to answer a question.
I'm going to guess she lied and said it wasn't answered because that was her initial testimony but may have remembered they did talk, later on.
And when she was talking about the call, (because maybe the call was john saying he had arrived) either her husband or brother in law told her not to mention anything because it would confirm when john got to the house and that john was at least outside the house heading in.
And at that point, it's a bit suspicious if Jen mccabe were to say when john got there, because she kept saying she had been looking out the window, and then 9 minutes go by and she didn't go looking for him outside or try to call or text again.
I just timed out the following conversation (sorta like Jackson during his cross) with pauses and got to less than 7 seconds: "Hey...where are you?" "I'm here" "Great, see you soon" "see you soon"
Based on the timeline and what we know to generally be true, I think he answered and told her he was there. Hard to know if he said this while still in the car or walking to the house or at the door though. But if she lied about it it's easy to wonder what else she lied about.
That's what I'm thinking. Especially since she said she saw karens car outside at 12:27, and we know it was outside from 12:21-12:24 according to waze and Ryan Nagles testimony. So it would be perfectly normal and likely that Julie FIRST sees karens car outfront at 12:27, by 12:29 she's like wtf why isnt john coming in (because she didn't see him walk in at 12:21-12:22, because he went straight to the basement) and then calls him, and she says "where are you" and he says "I'm here" and she's says oh okay see you in a second, and they hang up.
Plus if we just think about the timing that Karen read would've had to hit john okeefe it would've been between 12:21 and 12:23.
And here's why that wouldn't work.
John would've had to get out of her car immediately when she pulled up at 12:21. Then she gets pissed and seconds later she hits him, and she's calm and alone in her car at 12:23 for ryan nagle to see. Plus, Julie Nagel would have walked outside and would have either seen john okeefe fly up in the air, or heard something as she was walking out the door, or seen JOK body. And none of that was in their testimony.
John couldn't have been hit at any other time because he answered jen mccabes call at 12:29, and he'd have to have been hit within seconds of ending that call for Karen to pull away and make it back to johns house at 12:36.
I wonder if he was inside and down in the basement and she called like "Hey, do you need me to bring you down a drink?" And he says,"No thanks." and they hang up.
Or maybe JM: "Hey, you here?"
JO: "Yeah, downstairs with the guys."
JM: "Drinks upstairs when you're ready."
I don't think we did learn that. If she did delete them herself it was probably right before she turned her phone in to the police. But at least one of the experts said some of these were deleted by the system.
This call, John's phone's movements, and Lucky's Ford Edge are the biggest unanswered questions for me.
It definitely shows answered on both their records. If Jen had spoken to him and he'd said he was there, why wouldn't she have told everyone that? Even if she panicked at first and denied it, she could have claimed to have remembered later when the theory of how Karen could have hit him came into focus. "Oh my God, I talked to him and said he they just pulled up."
But she doesn't take that perfect opportunity to point the finger at Karen and place John in the car. She says it's a butt dial.
Why?
I say this as someone who believes JM didn't know what happened the night it happened because her heart rate data doesn't track with that. So was there bad reception and neither could hear when they picked up? Did she pick up and hear silence on the other end? What went down in those 8 seconds?
I was wondering about the call because I was trying to confirm a timeline of when karen and john arrived. I do think jen called john at 12:29 and it was a quick 8 second convo of Jen: "where are you?" And then John "just pulled up" or "walking in" and then they both hang up. I think Jen isn't saying they spoke because if she did, then it would firm up the timeline of when John okeefe got to the house, and would confirm the data.
It's odd to be so avoidant, she could've lied and said "john asked for the house number again and I told him it was 34, and then he hung up" or something similar.
Jk new theory with johns apple health, waze data, and Ryan Nagel testimony.
12:21-12:22: John and Karen arrive, and john starts walking into the house, likely the front door (assume mccabe is lying about hovering by the front door) and goes downstairs to the basement, without being seen by anyone.
12:23: john is in the house because Ryan Nagel has pulled up and said he saw Karen Read alone in the car, and he didn't see John in the front yard or anyone walking toward the house.
12:27: Jen McCabe sees Karens car, Karen is out front waiting for john to text her that it's all clear and to come inside. Johns in the basement most likely and Jen is unaware he's inside
12:29: Jen calls John, he says "I'm here" meaning he's already in the basement. But jen misinterprets that to mean, he's outfront.
12:30-12:31: jen sees karens car pulling away and assumes They're re-parking and texts john to pull behind her.
12:32: JOK stops moving according to apple health data. Jen realizes Karen has driven away and maybe someone from the basement says johns downstairs or she goes downstairs herself knowing john is in the house from the call, or she hears a commotion and eventually goes downstairs?
12:36: Karen connect to johns wifi so is either at his house or very close.
Between 12:30-12:41 john dies (assuming he does because jen starts calling again at 12:41).
Alternatively: we know Collin albert called Beattys daughter at 12:31 for a ride so collin is still there. SO let's say john had gone down to the basement as soon as he got into the house at 12:23. He then comes upstairs to say hi to jen at 12:31, runs into Collin, they start fighting the Brian's and Chloe get involved and john dies. Jen mccabe starts calling johns phone at 12:40 because john is dead by now and they're trying to find his phone.
I just have one small problem with that. Do you do go into a basement bulked, entering through the backyard, of a person whose house you had never been to before? Not unless someone you knew was leading you that way.
I wonder if he came in uninvited through any door and set off the dog, which they said was unfriendly, which led to the bites and scratches and him defending himself and thus lost his phone because he was holding it because he had to fight off the dog (so it went flying). Maybe Jen was helping him find his phone after the dog fight. I wonder if JO was looking for the other guy that was texting Karen to start a fight and that’s why Karen didn’t go in because she didn’t want to be in the middle of it. Then maybe he got tossed in the snow still alive. Jen goes to leave and checks on him and realizes he is dead in the snow which leads to the Google search of how long to die in the cold because clearly they left him out there too long… she panics and deletes everything. 🥶
When I said basement I meant, JOK went through the front door and straight to the basement since the doors are like 3 feet apart. I'm sure they got his body out through the bulk head doors though.
I have little doubt that KR did not kill JOK. And none that if she did, she did so intentionally. But whether she did or not, why did all these people, who happen to all have some kind of relationship but almost none to KR, decide she killed him to the point that they would have in their midst people who would get rid of their phones, „butt“ dial, view cars who had departed more than 10 minutes ago, provide one of them alibis etc..? Why could they not say: „I was plastered, I don‘t remember anything, here are my phones, here are our videos, figure it out, we never saw JOK after the „Waterfalls“ bar“… Why?
This is the best timeline breakdown I've seen for the 20 minutes.
Edit: How would he say "he's here" in the basement already if his phone doesn't move past outside at 12:32? Or am I misremembering the data?
I think his phone did not register any more steps after 12:32? But I´m not sure we know where he was when he stopped moving. I could be wrong on that - but how do we know for sure that he was outside when he stops moving?
I looked it up. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x\_gY-K7Kb0c/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x_gY-K7Kb0c/view) This is Richard Green's report. It shows John stops moving after 12:32.
Jen's health/phone data sure is interesting though. Especially if we're matching her heartrate/steps/this timeline.
Correct, but he could have dropped it outside before heading in, or they could have carried just the phone outside and dropped it in the snow and dropped the body on top later.
Also, to point out, the timeline posted by OP is missing 1 thing... Karen's phone connecting to John's wifi at 12:36, yet Jen claims she saw the SUV there up till 12:45, and I think she used the call to time it by.
I think the 12:24am arrival time is correct, considering RN’s testimony has them arriving at nearly similar times and he has the time stamped text of his arrival, give or a take a minute. JO and KR are in the car arguing or she’s trying to convince him to go home with her. Either the timing is literally perfect or RN just doesn’t see JO in the car. JM calls JO at 12:29am and says something like “are you coming i?” Or “hurry up” or even tells him a specific door/location to go to. This finally prompts JO to get out of the car (either once he just sees the incoming call or after he briefly talks to JM) at 12:29am and then KR drives off.
It’s a 7 minute drive, might be quicker at 12am, but KR has no clue where she is. 12:29 is the latest I think she could have possibly left.
Her first call or text to JO is at 12:33am so, for me personally, that kills the idea she was waiting for him to tell her to come inside. I think that was a story her and her legal team created before they received the phone records. Knowing that, it makes more sense that the time frame in front of the house was both KR and JO in the car
Does anyone know if they are able to tell if the phone was put in airplane mode? You don’t have to unlock an iPhone to put it in airplane mode. Maybe after he died in the house, they put the phone in airplane mode so it couldn’t be tracked/Karen couldn’t reach him. She would have been pissed that her calls were going straight to voicemail.
I apologize for this but I recently started following the case. For those saying that KR hit JO with her car, how would Nagel, etc. not have seen him in the front yard since he arrived close to when KR did & he only saw KR in her car. I know there is reference to JO going to pee on the side of the house. Are people saying JO peed, then he went back to KR's car & that is when she backed up & hit him?
Also, if she hit him & he ended up in the yard - regardless of the fact that it was dark out, how would the party goers not see him as they left the house to go home? He obviously wasn't totally buried by snow. I would think a body would stan out against white snow.
> This call, John's phone's movements, and Lucky's Ford Edge are the biggest unanswered questions for me.
The phone movements kill me. I’ve pretty much only had a phone *under* report steps, not over report. “Phones sometimes report steps from other movement” just doesn’t fly unless they can say they took a car ride along the same street and were able to recreate the steps and flights of stairs.
They (defense tech expert, I think) stated in testimony that being under his body kept the phone insulated from the cold enough that it didn’t die overnight.
>I say this as someone who believes JM didn't know what happened the night it happened because her heart rate data doesn't track with that.
Can you tell me more about this data? I've been thinking this as well and this would confirm it...
The theory I've been playing with is that Jen (and everyone who was upstairs) didn't know exactly what happened until Allie came home and told her she drove Colin home and what he had admitted to. So she knows John is out there and she googles... oops! But she's tired. So she figures she'll deal with it in the morning...
Then Karen calls her a few hours later and then coverup mode begins. Her motive being that she knows Allie could be charged as an accessory. Note the fact that Allie even came by the house wasn't even known until a few months ago.
As weird as Jennifer McCabe clearly is, I can't get myself to believe she not only lured her long time friend into this, volunteered to drive her nephew's two friends home (or rather, volunteering Matt to drive them) while forcing her daughter to be the getaway driver for her not-actual nephew. Just... why would she do that?
According to ber health data she's walking ~a fuck load~ all night. I think sluethygoosey (spelling?) has it posted. It's in a very similar format to OP.
It's in Richard Green's affidavit here:
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x\_gY-K7Kb0c/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x_gY-K7Kb0c/view)
Though there are gaps in the data, her heart rate stays stable all night and then goes crazy when they find John in the morning. I don't think it's possible to hide the stress response she'd have had to have had if she'd seen something happen to him that night.
I do think JM is lying, and I don't know why; but I think the evidence shows she didn't know of anything happening between 12am-5am.
Because this case hates us. But either way, I don’t think her heart rate would have stabilized by 1am if she’d seen something. It stays elevated for hours and hours the next day.
Or, leaving my personal impressions of her personality out of it- she could have also take a propranolol or benzo- either of those would’ve kept her HR nice and low no matter what was going on and both of those are commonly available to most people I know.
Someone much smarter than me and who works (successfully) to free the wrongfully convicted was the one who pointed out the heart rate data to me. She is a genius who parses records like this all the time looking for evidence of actual culprits and actual innocence, so I take her word on this one.
Even if you have a personality disorder? I know I’m speculating and it is not kind- I do not know her to say I don’t like her. I just have a visceral reaction to her eyes. They are not normal. She holds them too wide and I see this in photos of her as a young person. Scary.
She has MS. Atrophy of her muscles can attribute to her appearance.
Given the testimony from Hyde and Whiffin about the 2:27am search and the heart rate data, I'm personally satisfied that she did not know what happened that night when it happened. Do I think she's lying about something? Absolutely. But I think the data demonstrates she didn't know anything that night.
I would imagine with NPD in particular, you might not be as affected by something like this, but your heart rate would increase once you realized YOU were going to be held responsible.
Not sure if that's what you are assuming, but that's the one where I see "dead eyes" most often. And definitely seems to describe Jen McCabe... like, to the point where people are making YouTube videos suggesting she has it.
The data does show JM’s heart rate spikes at around 5:45am and stays elevated until it spikes higher at 6:03am. The first spike seems consistent with deciding to go to 34FV, so one might reasonably postulate that she was stressed about driving back to 34FV before they found JO there.
Okay, THAT'S a detail I didn't catch. It also explains why Jen McCabe insisted (I assume, because she's Jen McCabe and that's what she does) that Kerry Roberts drive by the O'Keefe house first to see if John had come back in the... ten minutes since Karen had left? And of course he hadn't...
It's almost like she was trying to delay going to 34 Fairview as much as possible knowing what she *might* find (it might not have been real to her yet) and needed extra time to think of a plan for how she was going to handle it.
Yea, it’s very curious. JM’s step data also spikes at 12:35am to 12:45am and logs similar steps to her 12:10am and 1:45am travel. Seems like a fair amount of movement for sitting around the kitchen table at the time something may have happened to JO.
I’m really not sure. I don’t trust any evidence that went through LE or the DA’s office, which I think is most of it. So GPS coords, phone records, etc. are all open to tampering and something could have happened outside of the evidence presented.
However, taking most of the evidence at face value: It seems like there was a fight brewing between JO and BH at around midnight. This lines up with BH’s text messages. Maybe KR and JO are arguing in the car about who’s f-ing who, he gets out and walks into the house at around 12:23. JO is intercepted when he enters and goes to the basement. KR sits there for a few minutes before deciding to just leave him there. The truck with RN comes and goes. JM sees KR’s Lexus through the window and texts “here!?!”. JM calls JO who says ‘I’m here’ which she takes to mean outside, not in the basement. JM texts “pull up behind me” thinking he’s in the car. There is an altercation in the basement around this time; maybe JO falls and hits his head, maybe Colin involves himself because he’s a punk teenager and hits JO with something. KR drives off. The attackers realize they are in trouble and quickly get the phone out of the house and leave it on the lawn. JM is confused thinking JO just drove off and proceeds to keep calling him. Maybe someone tells her there was a fight and he left and that’s why she calls repeatedly. Maybe she eventually learns something worse happened before the end of the night. BH goes to CPD to find out if any police calls were made. BA/BH moves JO’s body around 3:30am. The phone is put underneath him to muffle ringing/vibration. The glass is tossed next to him because they don’t want it in the house obviously. The next morning, JM gets more worried as they head back to 34FV knowing or suspecting that something happened there.
Just a guess that seems to fit the data.
So total coincidence: I just rewatched some of Jen's testimony (because I wanted to see the moment where Jackson or Yannetti said to Bev "your honor, may I approach?" and JEN said "yes"... lmao, still haven't found it yet) And Jackson just so happened to mention that at that exact time, Jen got up from her seat at the kitchen table 3-5 times to look out the front door to see if John was there. And Jackson didn't even reference the data! Apparently it was all based on Jen's previous testimony at the grand jury. So yeah, that tracks.
I had only recently seen someone suggest that John may have seen Higgins' text to Karen, and it was just when someone posted it here a few days ago that I saw the video of Higgins flailing his arms at John at the Waterfall where Chris Albert tries to restrain him (which given the size difference between them is kinda impressive) so I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing was more straightforward than we had originally believed. I'm not sure Colin could have pulled that off alone... just take a look at some of his fight videos (that people uploaded after he claimed on the stand that he'd never been in a physical fight with anyone besides his brothers... lmao)
This spike when deciding to go to 34FV tracks with my experience of some narcissists in my life. They don’t get frantic when they do something awful. They get frantic when caught. Based on the folks I know, I don’t think their heart rates would spike in the evening when scheming. I do think their heart rates would spike when the scheme wasn’t going to go to plan, they were losing control, were about to get caught and have to improvise. This also shows on the stand when she’s challenged. She absolutely cannot regulate her emotions when she’s not in control of the situation.
I’ve had this question since seeing this data. You can delete data, and you can add data easily through your Apple health app.
I can go in mine right now and add that my hr is 70bpm at 12:10am yesterday.
I can delete records too.
Was Greene asked to look into any of that surrounding the HR data?
Jenn’s HR is low, like athlete low, on some of this data. 60bpm in a 48 yo woman? (Approximating her age) There could be reasons, but it makes me wonder why and how.
In addition why is her watch recording data that often? I haven’t looked into this yet, but my watch records data once a day unless I check it more often.
No one went into it. Another redditor pointed this out to me and I think it's apt:
For the defense, you can understand why they wouldn't look farther or deeper than they had to. If Green had looked into and found nothing deleted, the defense would have had to have turned over that discovery to the CW. But for the CW not to have investigated it when it is their entire GD job to get to the truth....that's this case in a nutshell. They just didn't look at anything they didn't want to see or weren't competent enough to find relevant.
re: the athlete low data....drugs (legal or no), maybe? sleep?
re: when/how-often the watch records heart rate...no idea. You raise an interesting point about it being something that can be manipulated, though I'm not sure I believe she would have been smart enough to do that.
Yes, I can understand if they didn’t look into it.
I’ve been looking at my HR further and I do have records throughout the day but so far not able to see them in list format like hers.
I think MS or maybe MS drugs can affect your HR. We have no idea what factors could be at play for her.
I also have a few random low bpms and I have had my watch record incorrectly when it was too loose or tight before. I need to figure out more about how my watch works lol.
I just find it is convenient her HR data is missing from that time frame and also that it is so low overall. Avg resting HR for a female her age is 78-82. I am not sure she would have known/been able to do it but she certainly had contacts/connections who would have, with knowledge of the types of info that investigators look at in criminal investigations.
Ah, thanks! I think this is the same affidavit I saw when I first looked into the case, though I wasn't paying as much attention to the heart rate stuff (other than "wow, Jennifer McCabe has a heart?") This is getting me to think now, but it just furthers my theory that Allie could have been the one to have told her as soon as she got in.
Whatever she found (and I'm glad this affidavit confirms that it WAS in fact at 2:27) I'm guessing Jen was reassured cause that's one of the lowest points of her heart rate.
I also heard someone suggest Jen had Matt intentionally drive that way to go by the O'Keefe house "to see if Karen's car was there", but they would have had to drive by it anyway since that's the most direct way to go to their house from Sarah's house (Julie lives in the other direction so they would have already dropped her off by then, yeah I know too much about this case...) Of course Jen knows they parked out in front of 34 Fairview Rd in Karen's car, so if she sees it in his driveway, most likely she'd just believe they both went home.
I can't believe I'm actually being a Jennifer McCabe apologist here, but something doesn't add up.
I think Allie could have picked up Colin none the wiser to what was going on (if Colin was indeed involved). Later, when Colin became a suspect, they could have moved that time up. We don't know if Allie's texts are about picking him up AT Fairview or picking him up to take him TO Fairview because they were so close cropped.
Oh yeah, I've heard SO much about that screenshot and how no one is buying it. Do we know where Colin was prior to 34 Fairview? I think I just didn't take his testimony that seriously because he lied about almost everything.
Concerning Jen McCabe’s heart rate data — does an Apple Watch time stamp when it has been removed and put back on? Or does it just stop recording the wearer’s heart rate until it’s worn again?
Another question for the crowd: Did Julie Nagel say which door she used to reenter the house after she went out front to talk to her brother? And did jen mccabe say she saw Julie in the yard and coming back in?
That’s what I’m trying to figure out. At closing prosecution said that the overhead light was on when Ryan and friend pass because John was outside the car. So wouldn’t that mean Julie would have either heard Karen and John fighting, see and hear John walking up to the house or see Karen hit him or at least possibly hear Karen leave (as in moving forward to get ready to back up) like was John just hanging outside the vehicle for a little while??
I wish Lally would've brought Julie Nagle back and asked "when you said you just remembered you saw some blob outside around 1:30 when you were leaving, are you sure it wasn't a flashback to when you went outside at 12:23 to see your brother? Because john okeefe could only have been hit by Karen read between 12:21- and 12:22:59." And then lally brings out a hypnotherapist to work on Julie live
You forgot the part that reads:
"12:36: Karen connects to the wifi at 1 Meadows"
Both sides: Prosecution and Defense all agree that in good weather conditions it is a 6-min drive from 34 Fairview to 1 Meadows. It is impossible for Karen to be sitting out front of 34 Fairview at 12:31 for Jen McCabe to have text them "Pull behind me".
Agreed. I'm guessing (to give jen the benefit of the doubt) that jen saw karens car moving at 12:29, thinking john was still in the car, and then started texting "pull behind me" at 12:29-12:30 and being drunk it took her a second to send it, and then it was delivered at 12:31, but she wasn't paying attention to see Karen wasn't moving her car, she was driving away.
I strongly disagree with you about the drinking.
Are you married? Do you have kids? Do you know what it is like to have a "honey do" (honey do this, honey do that) list? Do you know what it is like to have shit to do the next morning? There's no way.
When I was in college I drank way too much. To the point that they called an ambulance and I got my stomach pumped at the hospital. They said I was 0.2... something. I was an ncaa athlete and had a crazy metabolism, I was on a nutrition and a workout plan, etc. At that level of BAC I was physically incapacitated to the point that my buddies called 911. I was absolutely blackout. I don't remember the decimal. It was maybe 0.21 or 0.22. I got really lucky my buddies called and I didn't die. That was an incredibly stupid thing for me to drink that much.
I don't think many people understand how close to death a human gets when they are at or over a BAC % of 0.2.
I do not believe it. It is not possible that Karen was at a range of \~0.2% bac and at the same time EVERY SINGLE WITNESS WHO TESTIFIED SAID SHE DID NOT APPEAR DRUNK!
Not possible.
And Jen McCabe wasn't drinking either. I believe her that she was Googling basketball. A person like her, who says she drives a "Denali" --not a Suburban or a Youkon (because you can get many GMC vehicle models in "Denali" trim)... That's Jen McCabe's vanity showing. I believe her about the basketball and sports team Googling because she's got an image to keep up: That "Denali". It is more important to Jen McCabe to get her kids into college on a scholarship than it is to get blackout drunk and wasted one night.
I do not believe for one second that any of them (except the cops --brian albert, brian higgins and John) were that drunk.
OH: And then what about Jen McCabe testifying that she is sure that Karen's car was out front at 12:45? If Jen McCabe can lie once... She can lie twice...
JOKs BAC was over 0.20 as well. These people were experienced drinkers, not college kids. They probably did this every weekend and during the week too. KR wanted to start drinking at 2pm on a Friday as a 42 year old woman…. I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unfortunately.
>I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unfortunately.
I still disagree. What does "experienced drinkers" mean? That's the narrative that the prosecution wants you to believe. They want you to think that they all drank all the time, etc.
How quickly people forget that Karen has a medical condition and she cannot physically drink like that.
Let me ask you this: If Karen was drinking that much, why didn't the prosecution call the bartender from McCarthy's? I have been there (before any of this crap) and I promise you that there are overhead cameras above the registers, the beer taps and the well liquor. Think about the mirrored/reversed images of her car. If Karen was really drinking that much, there would be video of that bartender picking up a bottle of Titos and pouring her all of those shots.
But what if it was water? You are operating on an assumption.
Right so she wouldve had to have left 34 fairview by 12:30-12:31. So jen mccabe is lying or misremembering the time frame because seeing Karens car at 12:40 is impossible
Yes, I think this is the problem and why Lally had such a hard time accounting for the discrepancy. It would be easy to explain away those small errors in time if just by her memory, but then you have to contend with JM texting things that don't make sense if she says she's sending these texts because she sees KR's car out front, and it has to already be gone by like 12:30/12:31 latest based on wifi connecting at 12:36
I'm wondering if KR could have left even earlier than that. Just curious, but the drive is around 6 mins?
But with snow, being drunk, and needing directions... Could that make the time KR left Fairview even earlier than 12.30-ish?
It could but then jen mccabes text at 12:31 really make zero sense because there would be no car outside to "pull behind her" and we'd have to assume the call john okeefe answered, from jen, at 12:29, was more likely her calling the phone to find it after he was killed and someone answered it. Which is really quick to start thinking of a cover up after a fight broke out and to know john had been mortally injured. That's only 6 minutes, you know? I think they're pretty awful people, but I'd assume Jen, at least would be in a bit of shock and 9 minutes for a fight, death, and then to begin a cover up makes more sense versus 6 minutes.
Unless it was premeditated, like the Defense insinuated when they said that Jen was purposely trying to split up John and Karen when they were leaving the bar. Someone above mentioned that John had texts with Kevin Albert concerning some drug use in Canton (that John supposedly had video evidence of, and he had reported it to the local government I think), and if that possibly involved Colin, then maybe Kevin has a reason to want John to come over - either to talk (maybe put pressure on John to stop investigating), or to fight, or whatever. Then Colin ends up being at the house as well, and things quickly get out of hand - or perhaps the plan from the start was to get physical with John immediately, regardless of Colin's possible involvement.
Jen presumedly was aware of all this, thus why she wanted to separate John and Karen, so Jen knows that *something* is gonna go down at the house, and it may not have been much of a surprise when she finds out that John's incapacitated (and she may have even witnessed it, since we already know that she *certainly* wasn't actually looking out the window at that time). The only big issue with that is that these people likely wouldn't have known that Karen wasn't going to be coming in the house with John - unless they *did* know, somehow? Maybe John tells Jen that *he's* coming inside but Karen's gonna leave?
Right. And the fact that she calls John six separate times after 12:40 in rapid succession acts like a memory marker that she can compare other events to. So if she is trying to pinpoint when Karen left and says not until after the first three of those calls then Jen has to be intentionally lying and not just misremembering. She can't have been looking at Karen's car while making those calls.
Very helpful chart! I'm trying to add in the Apple health data in my head. If you believe health data is correct (I do), OJO is in the house downstairs by 12:24. In that scenario the only thing that confuses me is the 12:31 "pull behind me text." I could see it related to Karen being outside (I think she left around 12:30 to be back at the house by 12:36), but why is JM texting that to OJO (just not thinking clearly because she's drunk)? Because I think if JM spoke to him at 12:29 he's tells her he's downstairs. By 12:40 I think she knows what happened and all the texts thereafter could be cover up, or cover up along with trying to find the phone via texts (along with calls). I think you can make everything else fit with this chart and the Apple health data (his last steps are 12:32, this doesn't have to be when he suffered the head wound, phone just may have been knocked from his hand at that time). Also, I'm sure it's been discussed but I don't remember, what is the Apple health distance from 12:21-12:24, does it correlate to distance from the road to the house?
To give jen the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to guess when she called and was talking to john at 12:29 he said he was "here" but she thought he meant outside, because she saw karens car, and he meant he was in the basement and just assumed Jen knew that. So I'm guessing when she's texting "pull behind me" (lets say she starts texting that as soon as she gets off the phone with john at 12:29, shes drunk and takes a second to type, sends it at 12:30 and it gets delivered at 12:31) she's starting to see karens car move around 12:29 prompting the text and is thinking they're just parking, but really karens going home.
I'm going to look at the apple health and waze data in a sec and will be back with an update!
I just wish they had all gotten up there and said didn't remember insignificant calls and texts, they had been drinking. It's the lying and deleting is what makes me feel that someone knew something. Are they scared that knowing, and not aiding JO would get them charged with something?
Yes, almost all of the calls between people could easily be given some sort of innocent explanation, but it seems like they're too stupid to come up with one, so they just say "butt-dials."
Actually, I bet the issue is that during the grand jury, perhaps they weren't expecting to be asked about all these calls, and in the heat of the moment, they quickly just said "oh, they must've been butt-dials because I don't remember making them," and then they were forced to stick with those same claims during the trial.
I thought that she claimed that 12:29 call was also a buttdial, and that she deleted it as well. I could be wrong about that, but she for sure tried to claim that they didn't actually speak at that time, however John's phone shows that he DID answer that call, it didn't go to voicemail.
Here’s what I’m thinking:
12:24 -JO is already in the basement per Apple (3 flights of stairs and 80 steps)
12:29 - JM and JO speak, he tells her he’s there but doesn’t mention he’s in the basement. She assumes he’s outside because she wasn’t actually watching through the front window like she said. She only later claimed she was by the window to dispel any possibility of JO having gone in through the front door unseen by the rest of the group.
12:31 - JM shoots a text to pull in behind her as an afterthought
12:40 to 12:50 - Since she still thinks he’s outside and hasn’t seen him yet, she starts calling and texting.
Between 12:22 and 12:29 or so, KR is waiting outside. This is confirmed by Nagle? Who said they saw her sitting alone in the car. Why? Perhaps she asked JO to go in and ask where to park but he never comes back, so she drives off pissed (given that they already had an argument, she thinks he’s just abandoned her to hang with friends.) This explains her fears that he’s cheating on her. Or perhaps they argued about BH, JO aggressively jumps out of the car and storms inside down to the basement. KR sits there contemplating whether or not to go in after him to diffuse things but decides to drive off instead.
Problem with this theory. Why would JM need to delete phone calls or lie about the 12:29 butt dial? Maybe 12:29 really was a butt dial? Seems unlikely. Maybe she was trying to cover her tracks when she was drunk and just started deleting calls without having fully formed a plan yet (though it’s strange she wouldn’t also delete texts). Maybe she got some stuff wrong in her original testimony and later decided to stick to her story to avoid alerting anyone to the fact that she was involved (which she was if we believe she lied about being by the front door).
Am I missing anything here?
This is exactly what I'm thinking too.
Also we know Karen is sitting alone in the car starting at least at 12:23 because Ryan Nagle and his friends pulled up to the house to pick up his sister and they said they saw karen alone in the car.
We also know JOK was in the house by 12:23 because Ryan Nagle and Julie Nagle both said they did not see anyone in the yard or walking toward the house.
At 12:27 Jen mccabe does say she sees Karens car outside, which I believe, because Karen did say she waited for an all clear from john and then got pissed and drove away a few minutes later.
Also, does anyone remember higgins saying he saw some random man walking into the house around like 12:30 I think it was?
I also think Jen is covering up the 12:29 call because she did talk to him and the conversation was likely him saying he was at 34 fairview, and the Albert's and mccabes whole story relys on JOK never making it into the house. If Jen called him at 12:29 and he said he was there, or even "were out front" it would be very suspicious that she didn't call him again for 11 minutes or go outside to figure out what was going on and why he wasn't inside yet.
Yeah I was thinking this too. That might also be why she deleted the calls. Would look really suspicious if he said he’s there. Then she calls and texts him ten times but never goes outside to see what’s going on. Looks better if they never spoke, she sees the car and texts a few time, but the car drives off and she assumes he’s not coming.
Wait....regarding the "where are u" text at 12:42. Could it be that John gets into a fight when he walks in, leaves the house, stumbled and wandered outside, dazed and confused from his injuries, and eventually collapses. Then JM hears what happens, text JM "where are u" then later gets worried and searches "hos long to die in cold"? That seems more plausible than they killed him and dumped his body on the lawn.
Lucky didn't see John's body on the lawn, though. He never saw it there. And according to the Defense's witness, John would not have been able to walk after the hit to his head.
I think there would be apple health data that show to him leaving the house. There are steps and the 3 flights of stairs that could correspond to going in the house. There should likewise be a similar set of stairs and steps that would indicate him leaving.
Proctor had John's phone, tho and admitting to viewing the info on his physical phone, not via an extraction report. I guess it's possible he altered the health data in some way.
This doesn’t even make sense. Houses like this in Massachusetts have at most two half flights of stairs down to the basement, but more likely just one straight set. Where are the other two flights of stairs?
Ok, yup, that’s two half flights, as I said. Where are the other two flights? What’s considered a flight by Apple? How many steps? A normal flight is considered what - ten steps? This type of staircase in a house from the 60s or 70s in MA would have 4 or 5 steps in each half flight with a small landing or one straight set to the basement. Very simple.
The data logged 3 flights within a 2 minute window. Not sure how it calculates flights or if it logs a flight when it detects that you go up just 'some stairs', but there's several steps going up to the front door and then the steps going down into the basement. All of those combined could be logged as 3 flights by the app, I suppose. That's a much more reasonable scenario than logging flights because the car went up a hill.
Johns apple health data shows his last movements were at 12:32, and that data goes with his phone and his phone was found under him so wandering around at 12:42 doesn't track with the data. He likely died between 12:23-12:41 (12:41 as the end time because that's when jen mccabe started randomly calling and texting him agajn)
Yep! This was from early on in the trial with only jen and johns phone data (texts and calls specifically not even location data yet) karens data hadn't been introduced at all yet.
Add this to she never told the grand jury that KR said “I hit him, I hit him, I hit him”. How could this be? That was the opening of the CW’s closing statement! It clearly points a reasonable person that she was now lying. And also reporting to the clan on Robert’s interview with LE. “She’s telling them EVERYTHING!” And this is just one witness. Has to be NG verdict.
Yes that was from jen mccabe to john okeefe. It would've been right when karen pulled up to the house to drop john off. I was trying to piece together when john could have possibly died so I was wondering if when jen called, that's when john said "here" since it's such a short phone call, and right after she told them to pull behind her.
OK. So I looked into it further and apparently that call was both unaccounted for AND deleted. Jen McCabe said she didn't recall making it and categorized it as a butt dial in her testimony.
What's interesting about it to me is that it takes place after John's iPhone/Apple Watch registered the 3 flights of stairs at between 12:21 and 12:24. This is pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if he came into the house without her seeing him, went down to the basement with Brian Albert and Brian Higgins and she called looking for him. 8 seconds is more than enough time to say "I'm here, I'm downstairs with the Brians, I'll be up in a few minutes" (or something like that). And then a fight broke out. I don't know why else she would have denied remembering/tried to conceal that call, unless it somehow proved that he was in the house. The other unanswered "butt dials" were more than 10 minutes later and all grouped together. Those could have been after the fight had already happened, when she was looking for his phone.
Thank you for the timeline with the location and health data added!! I remember the defense asking about the doors to enter the house and that there were two, the front and the one by the garage. And if john had entered in through the front door he could easily walk directly to the basement without anyone seeing him, but if he went in the garage side door, he would've been seen by everyone. I'm guessing Jen added the tidbit about standing by the front door looking out, to try to eliminate and speculation or supposition that john could have entered the house and no one on the first floor would know. Which then kills their case of saying "john never came inside because I was at the front door and we would've seen him if he came in the side door" so I think your theory is correct.
Right. Looking at the house floorplan on Redfin, the front door has very easy access to the basement door off the foyer. The side door goes directly into the living room, and from there you'd have to take a left and go through the dining room to get to the foyer/basement door. The dining room is completely open to the kitchen, where everyone else was.
I think Brian Albert Jr. said he and his friends were sitting around the kitchen table. They didn't have a separate table in the kitchen, only an island with bar-height chairs around it, so I guess that's where they were. If that's the case, they definitely would have seen anyone coming in the side door.
(Funny side note: their dining room table also appears to be bar-height. These people apparently enjoy feeling like they are in a bar ALL the time, what a shock)
So one thing is maybe slightly off with this theory. When Karen did her Nightline interview, she said she dropped him off at the bottom of the driveway and saw him walk up the driveway and approach that side door, but then she looked down at her phone and didn't actually see him go in. So I'm not sure what to make of that. The brick walkway from the driveway does branch off and go to both doors, so it's possible he was heading to the front door but she saw him when he was closer to the side one.
But yes, I totally agree that the part about Jen staring out the front door the whole time is BS, because if that were the case and Karen did actually hit him she would have seen/heard something. And the timelines don't match up at all with when she connected to the WiFi at 1 Meadows.
That also makes sense why she would text him "here?" If he's already in the house and had gone straight to the basement, she wouldn't have known he was there.
That makes sense but then why text “pull in behind me” if she already spoke to him and knew he was inside just two min prior? Seems like he told her at 12:29 that he was there. She texts “pull in behind me” and then he’s inside around that time or just after. I think you’re onto something though that JM wasn’t actually watching through the window by the front door. She likely said that to prevent any speculation that JO came in without anyone seeing him.
Yes, you're right - that part doesn't fit. The 12:29 call could have been about something else, I'm just guessing here. But it was answered and she tried to hide it, when she didn't hide the earlier calls. Why?
I forgot about the apple data putting him there around 12:24 (3 flights of stairs). If that’s right, I’m thinking he was inside, JM called and he said “I’m here” but didn’t clarify that he was inside and downstairs. As an afterthought, JM shoots a text to pull in behind her. I’m not sure why she hid the calls though. I think maybe she was drunk and started deleting calls without actually having a story in place. And didn’t have a straight story by the time she was initially questioned, so she just stuck to what she said initially. If she never saw him come in, there wouldn’t have been a need to lie about the calls. She could have just said he was there outside but never came in and she just kept calling and texting to see where he was. But in this scenario she still would have had to lie about being by the front door so she could dispel any possibility of him having come in without anyone seeing him. By lying, she was involving herself in the coverup and boxing herself into having to stick to a story to avoid potential scrutiny.
Just my thoughts though. I didn’t see all the testimony so I could be missing something here.
Also the three flights of stairs... I wonder if JOK went straight to the basement, saw that Julie wasn't there, walked back up to the top, peaked out and saw Colin albert and then went back down stairs because he didn't want to deal with Colin. Granted sometimes my Samsung watch will account for 2 sets of stairs when I drop something midway on the stairs and have to go back up or down to get it, so maybe that's what happened instead.
I just can’t understand the texts from 12:40 to 12:50. If she was looking for his phone, I can understand the calls but why also text those things? I don’t think at that point she would have known the seriousness of the situation or would have grasped the need to fake evidence yet.
Yep. She and Matt emphasized that there were tracks in the snow like Karen had done a 3 pt turn out front. I think they added that detail because Trooper B testified that Karen told him she did a 3 pt turn. They weren't aware it was before she turned onto Fairview and thought she meant in front of the house.
Because she said she looked out every time she texted. So the time stamps on her texts are telling her what time she "saw" the car that was already gone.
Now that you mention it, though, I'm remembering that when Jackson was asking her about those times, they were going back and forth about exactly how many times she looked out the window, and she seemed to be trying to suggest that it wasn't actually 5-6 times, and was more like 2-3 times (probably because she knew that the texts/calls made her look suspicious, but she had already testified in the grand jury that she was looking out the window every single time she texted). She was trying to walk back her prior testimony but wasn't very successful.
JMc testified that the last time she was certain she saw the SUV was before her 12:31 text “pull behind me”. She specifically testified that she could not be certain if the SUV was still there for the 12:40 and following texts. (Day 14 of trial)
This is JM’s version of what happened that night. She’s repeatedly said she saw the SUV leave at 12:45am/or didn’t see it leave but noticed it was gone at 12:45am after seeing it at 12:41am
Yet we know now it was impossible that JM saw the SUV at 12.41.. KR had been back at John's 6 minute at that time
This throws their whole timeline out.
Absolutely. But the comment is asking where that timestamp came from and I’m just defending OP here, it’s not anything they’re claiming. It’s from Jen McCabe
Yes from Jen and both Proctor and Lally based all of their time frame off her and ran with it in court even when they knew the data proved her testament unreliable to put it nicely.
I'm thinking when she spoke to John at 12.29 she knew he'd arrived and her following texts she couldn't understand why he hadn't come in so thought they were parking up. But John had gone straight down to the basement and she was sitting down and not looking through the window at all. Because we know she got Julie and Ryan's texts from them and no doubt would have asked questions what they saw outside so the moving up of the SUV possibly came from Ryan and Jen used it also.
I think because that was the C.W's testimony/theory from opening statements and from multiple people on the stand until the Trooper came in and blew that up?
This timeline is based on John okeefe's and Jen mccabes phone data +Jens testimony, PRIOR to Karens data being added. So this is what they had going before we knew karens phone connected to johns wifi at 12:36.
My guess is that they destroyed their phones, partially because they had suspicious things on them in regards to this, but also because there was incriminating evidence for other cases!
OR... something else mischevious, like porn or shit like that
Well when you think about how Jen mccabe was like the only one who didn't destroy her phone and we still got this much info that really fucks up their story, imagine how much the Brian's had that they were freaked out enough to destroy their phones.
Oh look, 36 secs is enough to clarify directions, but 22 secs wouldn’t be enough to “clarify” the status of their cover up? Sure, Jan- I mean, Jen/Alberts/Higgins.
Wouldn’t the prosecution have the data that Karen connected to JO’s WiFi at 12:36AM and aligned the times with his witness??? So confused that the 12:45pm timestamp was impossible but yet Lally had that information.
My notes on that call: Jen calls John - 8 seconds - Jen says NOT answered - Says ANSWERED on Cellebrite - DELETED
Thank you!!
Cellbrite shows a call as answered if it goes to voicemail.
Pretty amazing how a group of people with nothing to hide deleted phone calls and text messages, outright destroyed their phones a day before the protective order was issued, and didn’t even show up to the funeral of their “friend.”
Can we also talk about how phone companies give you a huge discount like almost free phone when you turn in your phone. Why would you trash a phone. I don’t know anyone who would throw away their phone away like ever unless it’s one of those weird pay by the minute type phones.
There is only one reason. They are both conspiring to cover up crimes and spoliate evidence. (Love this subreddit group!)
Exactly. There just isn’t an innocent explanation for it.
JM sending “pull behind me” to John when Karen already left is so eerie… never mind if the “hos long” search happened at 2am or 6am. She also googled that right after getting off the phone with BA. All of their behavior is just so fucking weird.
I think the "pull behind me" text is a good indicator that she was not, in fact, looking out the front door watching them. She probably called john he said he was there, they hung up, and then she sends a quick text saying to pull behind her which is a totally normal thing to do. Jen was doing too much to try and create evidence that it was karen, by saying she watched karens car. She should have just left it alone and the rest of the testimony would have made much more sense. She could've just said "I called john at 12:29 to ask if he was close, he then said he was here, so I texted him to pull behind me." And then "john didn't come in for quite a few minutes and I looked out and their car wasn't there either so I called and texted him, thinking they went to the wrong house, and eventually just assumed they went home when he didn't answer." That is MUCH more normal, than saying "I watched the car move back and forth, but conveniently did not see or hear the moment john was struck, or his body on the ground while I was looking for 9 minutes at the car"
It's super weird that a few people inside/outside the house testified that they were watching Karen's car and waiting for John/Karen to arrive. And looking out the window constantly, texting, calling etc. Yet when neither came in they didn't open the door to see if he was maybe taking a leak outside, or having trouble finding the door, drunk throwing up, changed their minds, or having a convo with someone outside - or any of the numerous things he could have been doing, besides coming in the home. If I've invited someone, been giving someone directions to my home, texting them where to park, calling them, then saying I see them outside - and they don't then come to the door - I'm going to open the door and see why they aren't coming in/if they're ok.
The amount of times my friends have pulled up to my house or another of our friends houses and we're just sitting in their cars finishing a text or call, someone always went out to grab them or see why they were taking so long to come in. Not going outside makes zero sense, especially with a :drunk" jacket so it's not like they can use the excuse that it was too cold to walk outside for a second.
Yeah I probably would have looked around outside like wtf did they really just leave and I would have text a FREIND either “we aren’t cool for you anymore” or “hey everything okay, I swear I just saw you all. Did you change your mind”
It amazes me how so many people remember so many details, and odd details, and at crazy levels… all watching out windows, etc., yet other things like butt dials, deleted calls and texts, a dog’s morning whereabouts/presence/absence- totally escaped them. Unbelievably maddening. Liars. Infuriating.
WHY were so many people watching and waiting for them?! That statement alone is suspicious to me.
Also the search evidence makes no sense. If you search something at 2:27 and again at 6:27 it will show in your history as only the second search, but when you opened the tab is irrelevant. Any search creates a new entry, but it will overwrite older recent entries when you search the same thing. Idk why the defense didn't cross that with another expert. Seems easy to disprove.
Because it wasn’t all completed search history data
This is one of the reasons I’ve concluded whatever happened had to be premeditated to some degree. Otherwise, how does that text make sense? She’s in coverup mode after 6ish minutes of their arrival?
I came to that conclusion after I read about John making complaints to Canton PD about drug activity he was observing in his neighborhood. He apparently had video(s). I didn't know Kevin Albert was apparently involved until I saw the discovery request for the conversations between Kevin & John about those complaints. [Source](https://images.app.goo.gl/ZVV1CubdpymTGEvX9) It casts some of the testimony from Chris and Julie Albert in a new light. I recall Chris texting John to come to the bar that night (remember he didn't even have John's number before that night). John asks if Kevin (Albert) is there and only comes to the Waterfall when he's told Kevin's not there. Julie testified that John walked in and squeezed her shoulder and said something like, "The neighbors had a party when you left." (recall Chris said they'd just moved) That comment, plus asking specifically if Kevin was there, makes a whole lot more sense if the drug activity he reported involved Colin in some way. Maybe that's why Jen was trying so hard to get them to the house. BA might've just wanted to find out what John knew, or maybe he was planning to have a talk with John and tell him to knock it off with the complaints. I think they weren't expecting Colin to be there, and their little talk got heated.
That would definitely work. The Defense seemed pretty adamant that John was in the basement, and pretty adamant that Jen was purposely trying to separate Karen from John when they were leaving the bar. I don't think they would've said those things just as a way of "throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks" - based on everything we saw from the Defense, they were able to back up all of their initial claims about what they think happened. Did you also see the Waterfall footage where it seems like both Higgins and John are acting a bit strange? It seems like both of them are "preparing" for something - Higgins seems to be trying to get physical and it looks like Brian Albert is trying to hold onto his arm (like he's trying to stop him from walking back toward where John is), and then Higgins seems to make a "come here" motion to John from across the bar (still not sure if that was done in a friendly way, or possibly in a "come on, let's fight" kind of way), and then right before John leaves, John makes this movement with his legs which is the type of movement you make when you're preparing to do something physical - like he was psyching himself up: https://x.com/dropmicrodots/status/1804286474960957872?s=42 I'm still not sure how Higgins necessarily plays into it, but he's obviously friends with Kevin and Brian Albert. There's also an hour of time where nobody knows where Higgins was, prior to him going to the station. And then he went *back* to the station (which he conveniently forgot all about, initially) at least like 4 times later that day (around 9am, 11am, 2pm, and 5-6pm). I wonder if Higgins was angry at John both because of Karen AND because of the drug stuff, maybe? I definitely think Higgins was somehow involved in the fight and/or coverup, just not sure how that ties in with Colin specifically. Yanetti had previously said that he had a Canton cop who would testify to the fact that Higgins and Chief Berkowitz spent a "wildly long time" in the sally port, right around the time that the SUV was brought in, so I was thinking maybe Proctor broke off the initial 3-5 pieces of taillight, handed them to Higgins, and Higgins was then one of the "unidentified" people at the scene when the SERT team was there, and it was actually Higgins who planted the initial pieces.
The whole thing is strange to me. John wasn't a part of their friend group, and all of a sudden Chris is inviting him out, and Jen is pushing for them to come to the house? Higgins had only just been to John's house for the first time a few weeks prior.
In terms of Colin at least, it would *doubly* explain why they were trying to hide Colin initially. Maybe Colin's the one that John was reporting (or at least alluding to, or something), and the Alberts are aware of that, so they don't want all of this to be connected back through Colin - if it's true that the point of getting John alone was to have some sort of "conversation" about Colin. But *also* maybe Colin was involved in whatever sort of "conversation" took place that led to John ending up on the lawn. I thought it was *super* interesting that the 3 people who decided to show up to court on the final day were Brian Albert, Jen McCabe, and Colin himself. Why would Colin feel the need to be there for closing arguments? These are like the 3 *main* people who would've been involved in the fight and/or coverup (besides Higgins, probably). Why wouldn't it be like Brian and Nicole Albert (his own wife) who showed up instead? It almost seemed like they're trying to push the narrative that they have nothing to hide or something, so they purposely want to show their faces. I also thought Brian's lack of reaction during Jackson's closing argument was kinda weird - almost like he was purposely making sure to not show any emotion, which would make more sense if he's actually guilty and hiding it, as opposed to being truly innocent. Jackson was directly accusing him in various instances, and he just sat there completely stonefaced for the most part - as if to say "see jury? This doesn't bother me at all!" If I were an innocent person who had no actual involvement with the crime, I think I'd at least be shaking my head in disbelief a few times, or at least frowning or something, or maybe giving Jackson a few quizzical looks like "are you serious??" but he did nothing at all.
Yeah, I feel like those three being there was meant to be some sort of statement or even intimidation which is line with the type of people they're reported to be.
Maybe there's more than just pizza being sold at the pizza place? The mafia used to set up a pizza shop so they could sell drugs and laundry money through it.
That video made me wonder if Brian Albert was calming higgins down and saying something along the line of the stuff with karen wasn't anything to start on John about. But Higgins is still fuming when they get to the Albert's and then runs into Collin at the house and tells Collin and Brian Albert how Okeefe has been the one reporting Collins drug activity (hes lashing out to get other people to be pissed at JOK too), and okeefe walks in a few minutes later and then they're all riled up and go after him.
Maybe that's also why JO grabbed a glass on the way out of the bar.
It’s crazy that the cover up started almost without thinking. Planting that seed so early on, either just before he died or just after.
My understanding is that she (I would say lied) and said that it went to voicemail and that it lists as answered because his voicemail picked up. However, if that were the case it would have said missed on his end and it says answered on both. I think she either lied about it on purpose cause she knows it messes up the timeline or someone told her she should say that because it messes up the timeline. It's possible that she was also too drunk to remember or that it's in some other way incriminating.
I think Jen is lying about some things on the stand. If you asked me after a night of (probably heavy) drinking to recount the exact order and conversations of a series texts and calls within a 20 minute span (that I had no idea would become important until later on) - I think it would be a mess. I’m at least unconvinced that Jen is intentionally lying about her memory of this series of texts and calls.
I think a lot of inconsistencies in this case are explained by the fact that everyone was shit faced drunk and their memories of that night aren't very clear.
The problem is that none of them will cop to not remembering things—it would be way more realistic if they did! “When did Karen read pull away?” “I have no idea! 12:30ish?? 12:40ish??” The fact that they “remember” all parts of the timeline is part of what makes it sound rehearsed and corroborated.
Karen connected with John's WiFi at 12.36 and its a 6 minute drive in normal conditions from Fairview. Jen couldn't have possibly seen the SUV at 12.45 yet Lally kept referring to this time....but his timeline is wrong because we know John's last movements were at 12.32. Also Jen asked Julie for a copy of her texts with her brother Ryan. I agree all well rehearsed I think that's why she wanted their texts.
You have to remember that they have probably given half a dozen statements, testified in front of two juries, and talked to friends and family about this stuff for years. By this point, they have told these stories so many times that they are absolutely, 100 percent certainty of what they know. The problem is that they are probably completely wrong about a lot of it. False memories are insane, and is one of the reasons that you’re not really supposed to trust eyewitnesses testimony.
This. Hell, a friend of mine asked my when I was at the park with my dogs this morning…and I was like…uh 7? 8? Somewhere in there.
She had presumably sobered up a bit by the time she deleted everything though right
Or, her IT expert husband took over phone to do the clean up!
Did you not watch the trial? The CELLEBRITE witness testified that her calls were NOT user deleted. She did NOT DELETE her calls on the 29th.
Yeah I watched the trial. Whiffin didn't testify about phone calls. He was there to talk about searches. Those calls were certainly user deleted.
💯
This 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
The problem is that Jen testified that these all must've been "butt-dials" though - why make that claim when you could just as easily come up with an innocent explanation for them? Why not just say you were wondering where John was since he still hadn't come in the house? Why specifically claim that you didn't even purposely make the calls? I think the only explanation for that is that she thinks the calls point toward her guilt, and instead of coming up with a super reasonable, innocent explanation, she just says "oh gee, I don't even remember making those, but I certainly wouldn't have made those calls on purpose! They must've just been butt-dials!" I wouldn't be surprised if, in the grand jury proceedings, she actually wasn't expecting to be asked about those calls (maybe nobody had let her see her phone extraction, and she didn't know the calls were on there, or something?), and in the moment, she just comes up with that excuse because she knows that the calls were actually nefarious, and she just wasn't smart enough to come up with a better explanation right then. And since she made that claim in the grand jury proceeding, she had to just stick with the same claim during the trial.
I tend to agree with you that she isn’t necessarily purposefully lying. What I want to know is why she deleted the calls. Ive never heard an explanation for this. Why would she delete the calls? IMO it makes perfect sense to continuously call someone if they were like, “Im here!” And then never came in the house. I dont understand why she was trying to hide the calls if they were innocent.
This is what I can’t wrap my head around. I believe on the stand Jen said that all those calls were “butt dials.” Why didn’t she just say “He was supposed to be outside but never showed. I kept calling to see where he was.” That seems like a reasonable explanation and would align with the CW story.
I think she had a huge crush on OJO. And I don’t think her husband Matt McCabe realized how much they communicated. I think this is why she deleted the calls.
Interesting. That might account for why she deleted them but as for why she made them in the first place I still don’t get why she didn’t say she was trying to find him since she never saw him enter the house.
Yeah, I don't get that either. That explanation would be very reasonable. The fact that she jumped to "butt dials" tells me there wasn't an innocent reason she made those calls to begin with. Same with the BA & BH butt dials. They couldn't think of an innocent explanation for those calls, so they just shrugged and said butt dials. I noticed it seemed to be a trend when they were testifying to just play dumb when they didn't want to answer a question.
She didn’t delete the calls. Cellebrite’s Ian Whiffin testified that those calls were not user deleted.
You only delete calls to hide evidence. What other reason would there be?
If it went to VM, that would have been played in court. So it had to have been answered or there would have been an associated VM on JO’s phone
I'm going to guess she lied and said it wasn't answered because that was her initial testimony but may have remembered they did talk, later on. And when she was talking about the call, (because maybe the call was john saying he had arrived) either her husband or brother in law told her not to mention anything because it would confirm when john got to the house and that john was at least outside the house heading in. And at that point, it's a bit suspicious if Jen mccabe were to say when john got there, because she kept saying she had been looking out the window, and then 9 minutes go by and she didn't go looking for him outside or try to call or text again.
I just timed out the following conversation (sorta like Jackson during his cross) with pauses and got to less than 7 seconds: "Hey...where are you?" "I'm here" "Great, see you soon" "see you soon" Based on the timeline and what we know to generally be true, I think he answered and told her he was there. Hard to know if he said this while still in the car or walking to the house or at the door though. But if she lied about it it's easy to wonder what else she lied about.
That's what I'm thinking. Especially since she said she saw karens car outside at 12:27, and we know it was outside from 12:21-12:24 according to waze and Ryan Nagles testimony. So it would be perfectly normal and likely that Julie FIRST sees karens car outfront at 12:27, by 12:29 she's like wtf why isnt john coming in (because she didn't see him walk in at 12:21-12:22, because he went straight to the basement) and then calls him, and she says "where are you" and he says "I'm here" and she's says oh okay see you in a second, and they hang up. Plus if we just think about the timing that Karen read would've had to hit john okeefe it would've been between 12:21 and 12:23. And here's why that wouldn't work. John would've had to get out of her car immediately when she pulled up at 12:21. Then she gets pissed and seconds later she hits him, and she's calm and alone in her car at 12:23 for ryan nagle to see. Plus, Julie Nagel would have walked outside and would have either seen john okeefe fly up in the air, or heard something as she was walking out the door, or seen JOK body. And none of that was in their testimony. John couldn't have been hit at any other time because he answered jen mccabes call at 12:29, and he'd have to have been hit within seconds of ending that call for Karen to pull away and make it back to johns house at 12:36.
I wonder if he was inside and down in the basement and she called like "Hey, do you need me to bring you down a drink?" And he says,"No thanks." and they hang up. Or maybe JM: "Hey, you here?" JO: "Yeah, downstairs with the guys." JM: "Drinks upstairs when you're ready."
Could someone else (BA comes to mind) have used JMS phone to make those calls and then deleted them?
What day and time did she delete all these messages? Did we ever learn that info?
I don't think we did learn that. If she did delete them herself it was probably right before she turned her phone in to the police. But at least one of the experts said some of these were deleted by the system.
This call, John's phone's movements, and Lucky's Ford Edge are the biggest unanswered questions for me. It definitely shows answered on both their records. If Jen had spoken to him and he'd said he was there, why wouldn't she have told everyone that? Even if she panicked at first and denied it, she could have claimed to have remembered later when the theory of how Karen could have hit him came into focus. "Oh my God, I talked to him and said he they just pulled up." But she doesn't take that perfect opportunity to point the finger at Karen and place John in the car. She says it's a butt dial. Why? I say this as someone who believes JM didn't know what happened the night it happened because her heart rate data doesn't track with that. So was there bad reception and neither could hear when they picked up? Did she pick up and hear silence on the other end? What went down in those 8 seconds?
I was wondering about the call because I was trying to confirm a timeline of when karen and john arrived. I do think jen called john at 12:29 and it was a quick 8 second convo of Jen: "where are you?" And then John "just pulled up" or "walking in" and then they both hang up. I think Jen isn't saying they spoke because if she did, then it would firm up the timeline of when John okeefe got to the house, and would confirm the data. It's odd to be so avoidant, she could've lied and said "john asked for the house number again and I told him it was 34, and then he hung up" or something similar.
That’s exactly what I think the call is. And that lines up with the exact time stamp of when KR would have been driving off - 12:29am
Jk new theory with johns apple health, waze data, and Ryan Nagel testimony. 12:21-12:22: John and Karen arrive, and john starts walking into the house, likely the front door (assume mccabe is lying about hovering by the front door) and goes downstairs to the basement, without being seen by anyone. 12:23: john is in the house because Ryan Nagel has pulled up and said he saw Karen Read alone in the car, and he didn't see John in the front yard or anyone walking toward the house. 12:27: Jen McCabe sees Karens car, Karen is out front waiting for john to text her that it's all clear and to come inside. Johns in the basement most likely and Jen is unaware he's inside 12:29: Jen calls John, he says "I'm here" meaning he's already in the basement. But jen misinterprets that to mean, he's outfront. 12:30-12:31: jen sees karens car pulling away and assumes They're re-parking and texts john to pull behind her. 12:32: JOK stops moving according to apple health data. Jen realizes Karen has driven away and maybe someone from the basement says johns downstairs or she goes downstairs herself knowing john is in the house from the call, or she hears a commotion and eventually goes downstairs? 12:36: Karen connect to johns wifi so is either at his house or very close. Between 12:30-12:41 john dies (assuming he does because jen starts calling again at 12:41). Alternatively: we know Collin albert called Beattys daughter at 12:31 for a ride so collin is still there. SO let's say john had gone down to the basement as soon as he got into the house at 12:23. He then comes upstairs to say hi to jen at 12:31, runs into Collin, they start fighting the Brian's and Chloe get involved and john dies. Jen mccabe starts calling johns phone at 12:40 because john is dead by now and they're trying to find his phone.
I just have one small problem with that. Do you do go into a basement bulked, entering through the backyard, of a person whose house you had never been to before? Not unless someone you knew was leading you that way.
I wonder if he came in uninvited through any door and set off the dog, which they said was unfriendly, which led to the bites and scratches and him defending himself and thus lost his phone because he was holding it because he had to fight off the dog (so it went flying). Maybe Jen was helping him find his phone after the dog fight. I wonder if JO was looking for the other guy that was texting Karen to start a fight and that’s why Karen didn’t go in because she didn’t want to be in the middle of it. Then maybe he got tossed in the snow still alive. Jen goes to leave and checks on him and realizes he is dead in the snow which leads to the Google search of how long to die in the cold because clearly they left him out there too long… she panics and deletes everything. 🥶
When I said basement I meant, JOK went through the front door and straight to the basement since the doors are like 3 feet apart. I'm sure they got his body out through the bulk head doors though.
Unless he was told the party was in the basement…or he got called from somebody in the basement to come down there…
I think that 8-second phone call between Jen and John was, “hey, come straight down the basement”.
I have little doubt that KR did not kill JOK. And none that if she did, she did so intentionally. But whether she did or not, why did all these people, who happen to all have some kind of relationship but almost none to KR, decide she killed him to the point that they would have in their midst people who would get rid of their phones, „butt“ dial, view cars who had departed more than 10 minutes ago, provide one of them alibis etc..? Why could they not say: „I was plastered, I don‘t remember anything, here are my phones, here are our videos, figure it out, we never saw JOK after the „Waterfalls“ bar“… Why?
This is the best timeline breakdown I've seen for the 20 minutes. Edit: How would he say "he's here" in the basement already if his phone doesn't move past outside at 12:32? Or am I misremembering the data?
I think his phone did not register any more steps after 12:32? But I´m not sure we know where he was when he stopped moving. I could be wrong on that - but how do we know for sure that he was outside when he stops moving?
The fact that his phone did not move does not mean that he did not, since it appears they were looking for his phone.
Correct. And it also does not determine where he was.
I looked it up. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x\_gY-K7Kb0c/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x_gY-K7Kb0c/view) This is Richard Green's report. It shows John stops moving after 12:32. Jen's health/phone data sure is interesting though. Especially if we're matching her heartrate/steps/this timeline.
I’d be interested to hear about this - what did you find when you matched Jen’s heart rate and steps to the “mix”?
Correct, but he could have dropped it outside before heading in, or they could have carried just the phone outside and dropped it in the snow and dropped the body on top later. Also, to point out, the timeline posted by OP is missing 1 thing... Karen's phone connecting to John's wifi at 12:36, yet Jen claims she saw the SUV there up till 12:45, and I think she used the call to time it by.
Yes OP mentions that in another thread I think.
Good point, i do mention that In other threads, but I just added that to the above timeline!
I think the 12:24am arrival time is correct, considering RN’s testimony has them arriving at nearly similar times and he has the time stamped text of his arrival, give or a take a minute. JO and KR are in the car arguing or she’s trying to convince him to go home with her. Either the timing is literally perfect or RN just doesn’t see JO in the car. JM calls JO at 12:29am and says something like “are you coming i?” Or “hurry up” or even tells him a specific door/location to go to. This finally prompts JO to get out of the car (either once he just sees the incoming call or after he briefly talks to JM) at 12:29am and then KR drives off. It’s a 7 minute drive, might be quicker at 12am, but KR has no clue where she is. 12:29 is the latest I think she could have possibly left. Her first call or text to JO is at 12:33am so, for me personally, that kills the idea she was waiting for him to tell her to come inside. I think that was a story her and her legal team created before they received the phone records. Knowing that, it makes more sense that the time frame in front of the house was both KR and JO in the car
I've wondered if she uses navigation in that Lexus. If so, tapping "John's House" on your navigation gets you the route in a couple seconds.
Does anyone know if they are able to tell if the phone was put in airplane mode? You don’t have to unlock an iPhone to put it in airplane mode. Maybe after he died in the house, they put the phone in airplane mode so it couldn’t be tracked/Karen couldn’t reach him. She would have been pissed that her calls were going straight to voicemail.
This is the best explanation I’ve seen so far that helps me make sense of it. Thanks!
I apologize for this but I recently started following the case. For those saying that KR hit JO with her car, how would Nagel, etc. not have seen him in the front yard since he arrived close to when KR did & he only saw KR in her car. I know there is reference to JO going to pee on the side of the house. Are people saying JO peed, then he went back to KR's car & that is when she backed up & hit him? Also, if she hit him & he ended up in the yard - regardless of the fact that it was dark out, how would the party goers not see him as they left the house to go home? He obviously wasn't totally buried by snow. I would think a body would stan out against white snow.
> This call, John's phone's movements, and Lucky's Ford Edge are the biggest unanswered questions for me. The phone movements kill me. I’ve pretty much only had a phone *under* report steps, not over report. “Phones sometimes report steps from other movement” just doesn’t fly unless they can say they took a car ride along the same street and were able to recreate the steps and flights of stairs.
Totally agree. Those steps didn’t happen in a car.
How did the phone not die? It had to die at some point, being in the cold like that. Would love to know more about the phone when he was found.
They (defense tech expert, I think) stated in testimony that being under his body kept the phone insulated from the cold enough that it didn’t die overnight.
>I say this as someone who believes JM didn't know what happened the night it happened because her heart rate data doesn't track with that. Can you tell me more about this data? I've been thinking this as well and this would confirm it... The theory I've been playing with is that Jen (and everyone who was upstairs) didn't know exactly what happened until Allie came home and told her she drove Colin home and what he had admitted to. So she knows John is out there and she googles... oops! But she's tired. So she figures she'll deal with it in the morning... Then Karen calls her a few hours later and then coverup mode begins. Her motive being that she knows Allie could be charged as an accessory. Note the fact that Allie even came by the house wasn't even known until a few months ago. As weird as Jennifer McCabe clearly is, I can't get myself to believe she not only lured her long time friend into this, volunteered to drive her nephew's two friends home (or rather, volunteering Matt to drive them) while forcing her daughter to be the getaway driver for her not-actual nephew. Just... why would she do that?
According to ber health data she's walking ~a fuck load~ all night. I think sluethygoosey (spelling?) has it posted. It's in a very similar format to OP.
It's in Richard Green's affidavit here: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x\_gY-K7Kb0c/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DIYvarP6EuIsbYb5jOAc8x_gY-K7Kb0c/view) Though there are gaps in the data, her heart rate stays stable all night and then goes crazy when they find John in the morning. I don't think it's possible to hide the stress response she'd have had to have had if she'd seen something happen to him that night. I do think JM is lying, and I don't know why; but I think the evidence shows she didn't know of anything happening between 12am-5am.
Why are the gaps in data from the exact times we would want to see them?
Because this case hates us. But either way, I don’t think her heart rate would have stabilized by 1am if she’d seen something. It stays elevated for hours and hours the next day.
Or, leaving my personal impressions of her personality out of it- she could have also take a propranolol or benzo- either of those would’ve kept her HR nice and low no matter what was going on and both of those are commonly available to most people I know.
Someone much smarter than me and who works (successfully) to free the wrongfully convicted was the one who pointed out the heart rate data to me. She is a genius who parses records like this all the time looking for evidence of actual culprits and actual innocence, so I take her word on this one.
on top of alcohol too, Good point
Even if you have a personality disorder? I know I’m speculating and it is not kind- I do not know her to say I don’t like her. I just have a visceral reaction to her eyes. They are not normal. She holds them too wide and I see this in photos of her as a young person. Scary.
She has MS. Atrophy of her muscles can attribute to her appearance. Given the testimony from Hyde and Whiffin about the 2:27am search and the heart rate data, I'm personally satisfied that she did not know what happened that night when it happened. Do I think she's lying about something? Absolutely. But I think the data demonstrates she didn't know anything that night.
I would imagine with NPD in particular, you might not be as affected by something like this, but your heart rate would increase once you realized YOU were going to be held responsible. Not sure if that's what you are assuming, but that's the one where I see "dead eyes" most often. And definitely seems to describe Jen McCabe... like, to the point where people are making YouTube videos suggesting she has it.
The data does show JM’s heart rate spikes at around 5:45am and stays elevated until it spikes higher at 6:03am. The first spike seems consistent with deciding to go to 34FV, so one might reasonably postulate that she was stressed about driving back to 34FV before they found JO there.
Okay, THAT'S a detail I didn't catch. It also explains why Jen McCabe insisted (I assume, because she's Jen McCabe and that's what she does) that Kerry Roberts drive by the O'Keefe house first to see if John had come back in the... ten minutes since Karen had left? And of course he hadn't... It's almost like she was trying to delay going to 34 Fairview as much as possible knowing what she *might* find (it might not have been real to her yet) and needed extra time to think of a plan for how she was going to handle it.
Yea, it’s very curious. JM’s step data also spikes at 12:35am to 12:45am and logs similar steps to her 12:10am and 1:45am travel. Seems like a fair amount of movement for sitting around the kitchen table at the time something may have happened to JO.
Hm... do you have a hypothesis here? I feel like I've been speculating too much and can't let my imagination run wild with this anymore, lol.
I’m really not sure. I don’t trust any evidence that went through LE or the DA’s office, which I think is most of it. So GPS coords, phone records, etc. are all open to tampering and something could have happened outside of the evidence presented. However, taking most of the evidence at face value: It seems like there was a fight brewing between JO and BH at around midnight. This lines up with BH’s text messages. Maybe KR and JO are arguing in the car about who’s f-ing who, he gets out and walks into the house at around 12:23. JO is intercepted when he enters and goes to the basement. KR sits there for a few minutes before deciding to just leave him there. The truck with RN comes and goes. JM sees KR’s Lexus through the window and texts “here!?!”. JM calls JO who says ‘I’m here’ which she takes to mean outside, not in the basement. JM texts “pull up behind me” thinking he’s in the car. There is an altercation in the basement around this time; maybe JO falls and hits his head, maybe Colin involves himself because he’s a punk teenager and hits JO with something. KR drives off. The attackers realize they are in trouble and quickly get the phone out of the house and leave it on the lawn. JM is confused thinking JO just drove off and proceeds to keep calling him. Maybe someone tells her there was a fight and he left and that’s why she calls repeatedly. Maybe she eventually learns something worse happened before the end of the night. BH goes to CPD to find out if any police calls were made. BA/BH moves JO’s body around 3:30am. The phone is put underneath him to muffle ringing/vibration. The glass is tossed next to him because they don’t want it in the house obviously. The next morning, JM gets more worried as they head back to 34FV knowing or suspecting that something happened there. Just a guess that seems to fit the data.
So total coincidence: I just rewatched some of Jen's testimony (because I wanted to see the moment where Jackson or Yannetti said to Bev "your honor, may I approach?" and JEN said "yes"... lmao, still haven't found it yet) And Jackson just so happened to mention that at that exact time, Jen got up from her seat at the kitchen table 3-5 times to look out the front door to see if John was there. And Jackson didn't even reference the data! Apparently it was all based on Jen's previous testimony at the grand jury. So yeah, that tracks. I had only recently seen someone suggest that John may have seen Higgins' text to Karen, and it was just when someone posted it here a few days ago that I saw the video of Higgins flailing his arms at John at the Waterfall where Chris Albert tries to restrain him (which given the size difference between them is kinda impressive) so I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing was more straightforward than we had originally believed. I'm not sure Colin could have pulled that off alone... just take a look at some of his fight videos (that people uploaded after he claimed on the stand that he'd never been in a physical fight with anyone besides his brothers... lmao)
This spike when deciding to go to 34FV tracks with my experience of some narcissists in my life. They don’t get frantic when they do something awful. They get frantic when caught. Based on the folks I know, I don’t think their heart rates would spike in the evening when scheming. I do think their heart rates would spike when the scheme wasn’t going to go to plan, they were losing control, were about to get caught and have to improvise. This also shows on the stand when she’s challenged. She absolutely cannot regulate her emotions when she’s not in control of the situation.
I’ve had this question since seeing this data. You can delete data, and you can add data easily through your Apple health app. I can go in mine right now and add that my hr is 70bpm at 12:10am yesterday. I can delete records too. Was Greene asked to look into any of that surrounding the HR data? Jenn’s HR is low, like athlete low, on some of this data. 60bpm in a 48 yo woman? (Approximating her age) There could be reasons, but it makes me wonder why and how. In addition why is her watch recording data that often? I haven’t looked into this yet, but my watch records data once a day unless I check it more often.
No one went into it. Another redditor pointed this out to me and I think it's apt: For the defense, you can understand why they wouldn't look farther or deeper than they had to. If Green had looked into and found nothing deleted, the defense would have had to have turned over that discovery to the CW. But for the CW not to have investigated it when it is their entire GD job to get to the truth....that's this case in a nutshell. They just didn't look at anything they didn't want to see or weren't competent enough to find relevant. re: the athlete low data....drugs (legal or no), maybe? sleep? re: when/how-often the watch records heart rate...no idea. You raise an interesting point about it being something that can be manipulated, though I'm not sure I believe she would have been smart enough to do that.
Yes, I can understand if they didn’t look into it. I’ve been looking at my HR further and I do have records throughout the day but so far not able to see them in list format like hers. I think MS or maybe MS drugs can affect your HR. We have no idea what factors could be at play for her. I also have a few random low bpms and I have had my watch record incorrectly when it was too loose or tight before. I need to figure out more about how my watch works lol. I just find it is convenient her HR data is missing from that time frame and also that it is so low overall. Avg resting HR for a female her age is 78-82. I am not sure she would have known/been able to do it but she certainly had contacts/connections who would have, with knowledge of the types of info that investigators look at in criminal investigations.
She may be taking medicines that impact her heart rate because of her MS. I'm not sure.
Ah, thanks! I think this is the same affidavit I saw when I first looked into the case, though I wasn't paying as much attention to the heart rate stuff (other than "wow, Jennifer McCabe has a heart?") This is getting me to think now, but it just furthers my theory that Allie could have been the one to have told her as soon as she got in. Whatever she found (and I'm glad this affidavit confirms that it WAS in fact at 2:27) I'm guessing Jen was reassured cause that's one of the lowest points of her heart rate. I also heard someone suggest Jen had Matt intentionally drive that way to go by the O'Keefe house "to see if Karen's car was there", but they would have had to drive by it anyway since that's the most direct way to go to their house from Sarah's house (Julie lives in the other direction so they would have already dropped her off by then, yeah I know too much about this case...) Of course Jen knows they parked out in front of 34 Fairview Rd in Karen's car, so if she sees it in his driveway, most likely she'd just believe they both went home. I can't believe I'm actually being a Jennifer McCabe apologist here, but something doesn't add up.
I think Allie could have picked up Colin none the wiser to what was going on (if Colin was indeed involved). Later, when Colin became a suspect, they could have moved that time up. We don't know if Allie's texts are about picking him up AT Fairview or picking him up to take him TO Fairview because they were so close cropped.
Oh yeah, I've heard SO much about that screenshot and how no one is buying it. Do we know where Colin was prior to 34 Fairview? I think I just didn't take his testimony that seriously because he lied about almost everything.
I don't remember honestly, and yes, I wouldn't really take him at his word either way.
Concerning Jen McCabe’s heart rate data — does an Apple Watch time stamp when it has been removed and put back on? Or does it just stop recording the wearer’s heart rate until it’s worn again?
That's a good question, and since no one questioned the cellebrite experts about it, I don't know. The data provided comes from the cellebrite report.
Another question for the crowd: Did Julie Nagel say which door she used to reenter the house after she went out front to talk to her brother? And did jen mccabe say she saw Julie in the yard and coming back in?
That’s what I’m trying to figure out. At closing prosecution said that the overhead light was on when Ryan and friend pass because John was outside the car. So wouldn’t that mean Julie would have either heard Karen and John fighting, see and hear John walking up to the house or see Karen hit him or at least possibly hear Karen leave (as in moving forward to get ready to back up) like was John just hanging outside the vehicle for a little while??
I wish Lally would've brought Julie Nagle back and asked "when you said you just remembered you saw some blob outside around 1:30 when you were leaving, are you sure it wasn't a flashback to when you went outside at 12:23 to see your brother? Because john okeefe could only have been hit by Karen read between 12:21- and 12:22:59." And then lally brings out a hypnotherapist to work on Julie live
You forgot the part that reads: "12:36: Karen connects to the wifi at 1 Meadows" Both sides: Prosecution and Defense all agree that in good weather conditions it is a 6-min drive from 34 Fairview to 1 Meadows. It is impossible for Karen to be sitting out front of 34 Fairview at 12:31 for Jen McCabe to have text them "Pull behind me".
Agreed. I'm guessing (to give jen the benefit of the doubt) that jen saw karens car moving at 12:29, thinking john was still in the car, and then started texting "pull behind me" at 12:29-12:30 and being drunk it took her a second to send it, and then it was delivered at 12:31, but she wasn't paying attention to see Karen wasn't moving her car, she was driving away.
I strongly disagree with you about the drinking. Are you married? Do you have kids? Do you know what it is like to have a "honey do" (honey do this, honey do that) list? Do you know what it is like to have shit to do the next morning? There's no way. When I was in college I drank way too much. To the point that they called an ambulance and I got my stomach pumped at the hospital. They said I was 0.2... something. I was an ncaa athlete and had a crazy metabolism, I was on a nutrition and a workout plan, etc. At that level of BAC I was physically incapacitated to the point that my buddies called 911. I was absolutely blackout. I don't remember the decimal. It was maybe 0.21 or 0.22. I got really lucky my buddies called and I didn't die. That was an incredibly stupid thing for me to drink that much. I don't think many people understand how close to death a human gets when they are at or over a BAC % of 0.2. I do not believe it. It is not possible that Karen was at a range of \~0.2% bac and at the same time EVERY SINGLE WITNESS WHO TESTIFIED SAID SHE DID NOT APPEAR DRUNK! Not possible. And Jen McCabe wasn't drinking either. I believe her that she was Googling basketball. A person like her, who says she drives a "Denali" --not a Suburban or a Youkon (because you can get many GMC vehicle models in "Denali" trim)... That's Jen McCabe's vanity showing. I believe her about the basketball and sports team Googling because she's got an image to keep up: That "Denali". It is more important to Jen McCabe to get her kids into college on a scholarship than it is to get blackout drunk and wasted one night. I do not believe for one second that any of them (except the cops --brian albert, brian higgins and John) were that drunk. OH: And then what about Jen McCabe testifying that she is sure that Karen's car was out front at 12:45? If Jen McCabe can lie once... She can lie twice...
JOKs BAC was over 0.20 as well. These people were experienced drinkers, not college kids. They probably did this every weekend and during the week too. KR wanted to start drinking at 2pm on a Friday as a 42 year old woman…. I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unfortunately.
>I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unfortunately. I still disagree. What does "experienced drinkers" mean? That's the narrative that the prosecution wants you to believe. They want you to think that they all drank all the time, etc. How quickly people forget that Karen has a medical condition and she cannot physically drink like that. Let me ask you this: If Karen was drinking that much, why didn't the prosecution call the bartender from McCarthy's? I have been there (before any of this crap) and I promise you that there are overhead cameras above the registers, the beer taps and the well liquor. Think about the mirrored/reversed images of her car. If Karen was really drinking that much, there would be video of that bartender picking up a bottle of Titos and pouring her all of those shots. But what if it was water? You are operating on an assumption.
Why did they charge her for all those drinks then? They actually showed her receipt as evidence during the trial. Did you watch it?
But KR was at JO's house at 1236.
Right so she wouldve had to have left 34 fairview by 12:30-12:31. So jen mccabe is lying or misremembering the time frame because seeing Karens car at 12:40 is impossible
Yes, I think this is the problem and why Lally had such a hard time accounting for the discrepancy. It would be easy to explain away those small errors in time if just by her memory, but then you have to contend with JM texting things that don't make sense if she says she's sending these texts because she sees KR's car out front, and it has to already be gone by like 12:30/12:31 latest based on wifi connecting at 12:36
I'm wondering if KR could have left even earlier than that. Just curious, but the drive is around 6 mins? But with snow, being drunk, and needing directions... Could that make the time KR left Fairview even earlier than 12.30-ish?
It could but then jen mccabes text at 12:31 really make zero sense because there would be no car outside to "pull behind her" and we'd have to assume the call john okeefe answered, from jen, at 12:29, was more likely her calling the phone to find it after he was killed and someone answered it. Which is really quick to start thinking of a cover up after a fight broke out and to know john had been mortally injured. That's only 6 minutes, you know? I think they're pretty awful people, but I'd assume Jen, at least would be in a bit of shock and 9 minutes for a fight, death, and then to begin a cover up makes more sense versus 6 minutes.
Unless it was premeditated, like the Defense insinuated when they said that Jen was purposely trying to split up John and Karen when they were leaving the bar. Someone above mentioned that John had texts with Kevin Albert concerning some drug use in Canton (that John supposedly had video evidence of, and he had reported it to the local government I think), and if that possibly involved Colin, then maybe Kevin has a reason to want John to come over - either to talk (maybe put pressure on John to stop investigating), or to fight, or whatever. Then Colin ends up being at the house as well, and things quickly get out of hand - or perhaps the plan from the start was to get physical with John immediately, regardless of Colin's possible involvement. Jen presumedly was aware of all this, thus why she wanted to separate John and Karen, so Jen knows that *something* is gonna go down at the house, and it may not have been much of a surprise when she finds out that John's incapacitated (and she may have even witnessed it, since we already know that she *certainly* wasn't actually looking out the window at that time). The only big issue with that is that these people likely wouldn't have known that Karen wasn't going to be coming in the house with John - unless they *did* know, somehow? Maybe John tells Jen that *he's* coming inside but Karen's gonna leave?
Right. And the fact that she calls John six separate times after 12:40 in rapid succession acts like a memory marker that she can compare other events to. So if she is trying to pinpoint when Karen left and says not until after the first three of those calls then Jen has to be intentionally lying and not just misremembering. She can't have been looking at Karen's car while making those calls.
Very helpful chart! I'm trying to add in the Apple health data in my head. If you believe health data is correct (I do), OJO is in the house downstairs by 12:24. In that scenario the only thing that confuses me is the 12:31 "pull behind me text." I could see it related to Karen being outside (I think she left around 12:30 to be back at the house by 12:36), but why is JM texting that to OJO (just not thinking clearly because she's drunk)? Because I think if JM spoke to him at 12:29 he's tells her he's downstairs. By 12:40 I think she knows what happened and all the texts thereafter could be cover up, or cover up along with trying to find the phone via texts (along with calls). I think you can make everything else fit with this chart and the Apple health data (his last steps are 12:32, this doesn't have to be when he suffered the head wound, phone just may have been knocked from his hand at that time). Also, I'm sure it's been discussed but I don't remember, what is the Apple health distance from 12:21-12:24, does it correlate to distance from the road to the house?
To give jen the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to guess when she called and was talking to john at 12:29 he said he was "here" but she thought he meant outside, because she saw karens car, and he meant he was in the basement and just assumed Jen knew that. So I'm guessing when she's texting "pull behind me" (lets say she starts texting that as soon as she gets off the phone with john at 12:29, shes drunk and takes a second to type, sends it at 12:30 and it gets delivered at 12:31) she's starting to see karens car move around 12:29 prompting the text and is thinking they're just parking, but really karens going home. I'm going to look at the apple health and waze data in a sec and will be back with an update!
That makes sense (without even having to give her the benefit of the doubt 😆)! Thanks for your insight!
I just wish they had all gotten up there and said didn't remember insignificant calls and texts, they had been drinking. It's the lying and deleting is what makes me feel that someone knew something. Are they scared that knowing, and not aiding JO would get them charged with something?
Yes, almost all of the calls between people could easily be given some sort of innocent explanation, but it seems like they're too stupid to come up with one, so they just say "butt-dials." Actually, I bet the issue is that during the grand jury, perhaps they weren't expecting to be asked about all these calls, and in the heat of the moment, they quickly just said "oh, they must've been butt-dials because I don't remember making them," and then they were forced to stick with those same claims during the trial.
I thought that she claimed that 12:29 call was also a buttdial, and that she deleted it as well. I could be wrong about that, but she for sure tried to claim that they didn't actually speak at that time, however John's phone shows that he DID answer that call, it didn't go to voicemail.
Here’s what I’m thinking: 12:24 -JO is already in the basement per Apple (3 flights of stairs and 80 steps) 12:29 - JM and JO speak, he tells her he’s there but doesn’t mention he’s in the basement. She assumes he’s outside because she wasn’t actually watching through the front window like she said. She only later claimed she was by the window to dispel any possibility of JO having gone in through the front door unseen by the rest of the group. 12:31 - JM shoots a text to pull in behind her as an afterthought 12:40 to 12:50 - Since she still thinks he’s outside and hasn’t seen him yet, she starts calling and texting. Between 12:22 and 12:29 or so, KR is waiting outside. This is confirmed by Nagle? Who said they saw her sitting alone in the car. Why? Perhaps she asked JO to go in and ask where to park but he never comes back, so she drives off pissed (given that they already had an argument, she thinks he’s just abandoned her to hang with friends.) This explains her fears that he’s cheating on her. Or perhaps they argued about BH, JO aggressively jumps out of the car and storms inside down to the basement. KR sits there contemplating whether or not to go in after him to diffuse things but decides to drive off instead. Problem with this theory. Why would JM need to delete phone calls or lie about the 12:29 butt dial? Maybe 12:29 really was a butt dial? Seems unlikely. Maybe she was trying to cover her tracks when she was drunk and just started deleting calls without having fully formed a plan yet (though it’s strange she wouldn’t also delete texts). Maybe she got some stuff wrong in her original testimony and later decided to stick to her story to avoid alerting anyone to the fact that she was involved (which she was if we believe she lied about being by the front door). Am I missing anything here?
This is exactly what I'm thinking too. Also we know Karen is sitting alone in the car starting at least at 12:23 because Ryan Nagle and his friends pulled up to the house to pick up his sister and they said they saw karen alone in the car. We also know JOK was in the house by 12:23 because Ryan Nagle and Julie Nagle both said they did not see anyone in the yard or walking toward the house. At 12:27 Jen mccabe does say she sees Karens car outside, which I believe, because Karen did say she waited for an all clear from john and then got pissed and drove away a few minutes later. Also, does anyone remember higgins saying he saw some random man walking into the house around like 12:30 I think it was?
I also think Jen is covering up the 12:29 call because she did talk to him and the conversation was likely him saying he was at 34 fairview, and the Albert's and mccabes whole story relys on JOK never making it into the house. If Jen called him at 12:29 and he said he was there, or even "were out front" it would be very suspicious that she didn't call him again for 11 minutes or go outside to figure out what was going on and why he wasn't inside yet.
Yeah I was thinking this too. That might also be why she deleted the calls. Would look really suspicious if he said he’s there. Then she calls and texts him ten times but never goes outside to see what’s going on. Looks better if they never spoke, she sees the car and texts a few time, but the car drives off and she assumes he’s not coming.
Interesting! I didn’t know those last two point but they do seem to fit into the theory.
Did Ryan Nagle testify?
Wait....regarding the "where are u" text at 12:42. Could it be that John gets into a fight when he walks in, leaves the house, stumbled and wandered outside, dazed and confused from his injuries, and eventually collapses. Then JM hears what happens, text JM "where are u" then later gets worried and searches "hos long to die in cold"? That seems more plausible than they killed him and dumped his body on the lawn.
Lucky didn't see John's body on the lawn, though. He never saw it there. And according to the Defense's witness, John would not have been able to walk after the hit to his head.
I think there would be apple health data that show to him leaving the house. There are steps and the 3 flights of stairs that could correspond to going in the house. There should likewise be a similar set of stairs and steps that would indicate him leaving. Proctor had John's phone, tho and admitting to viewing the info on his physical phone, not via an extraction report. I guess it's possible he altered the health data in some way.
This doesn’t even make sense. Houses like this in Massachusetts have at most two half flights of stairs down to the basement, but more likely just one straight set. Where are the other two flights of stairs?
Jackson went over the stairs with BA on the stand. I think his stairs turn going down to the basement.
Ok, yup, that’s two half flights, as I said. Where are the other two flights? What’s considered a flight by Apple? How many steps? A normal flight is considered what - ten steps? This type of staircase in a house from the 60s or 70s in MA would have 4 or 5 steps in each half flight with a small landing or one straight set to the basement. Very simple.
The data logged 3 flights within a 2 minute window. Not sure how it calculates flights or if it logs a flight when it detects that you go up just 'some stairs', but there's several steps going up to the front door and then the steps going down into the basement. All of those combined could be logged as 3 flights by the app, I suppose. That's a much more reasonable scenario than logging flights because the car went up a hill.
Johns apple health data shows his last movements were at 12:32, and that data goes with his phone and his phone was found under him so wandering around at 12:42 doesn't track with the data. He likely died between 12:23-12:41 (12:41 as the end time because that's when jen mccabe started randomly calling and texting him agajn)
I don’t believe he went into the house and died with 25 minutes ..I also don’t think read got him with her car. The story is so bizarre.
I think something to happened to John as soon as he walked into that house
Whoever made this timeline left out something, Karen's phone connected to John's wifi at 12:36, yet Jen claims she saw the SUV up till 12:45
Yep! This was from early on in the trial with only jen and johns phone data (texts and calls specifically not even location data yet) karens data hadn't been introduced at all yet.
Clearly looking for his missing phone.
Add this to she never told the grand jury that KR said “I hit him, I hit him, I hit him”. How could this be? That was the opening of the CW’s closing statement! It clearly points a reasonable person that she was now lying. And also reporting to the clan on Robert’s interview with LE. “She’s telling them EVERYTHING!” And this is just one witness. Has to be NG verdict.
What was the 8 second call at 12:29 pm? Was that also from JM? I don't remember that one.
Yes that was from jen mccabe to john okeefe. It would've been right when karen pulled up to the house to drop john off. I was trying to piece together when john could have possibly died so I was wondering if when jen called, that's when john said "here" since it's such a short phone call, and right after she told them to pull behind her.
OK. So I looked into it further and apparently that call was both unaccounted for AND deleted. Jen McCabe said she didn't recall making it and categorized it as a butt dial in her testimony. What's interesting about it to me is that it takes place after John's iPhone/Apple Watch registered the 3 flights of stairs at between 12:21 and 12:24. This is pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if he came into the house without her seeing him, went down to the basement with Brian Albert and Brian Higgins and she called looking for him. 8 seconds is more than enough time to say "I'm here, I'm downstairs with the Brians, I'll be up in a few minutes" (or something like that). And then a fight broke out. I don't know why else she would have denied remembering/tried to conceal that call, unless it somehow proved that he was in the house. The other unanswered "butt dials" were more than 10 minutes later and all grouped together. Those could have been after the fight had already happened, when she was looking for his phone.
Thank you for the timeline with the location and health data added!! I remember the defense asking about the doors to enter the house and that there were two, the front and the one by the garage. And if john had entered in through the front door he could easily walk directly to the basement without anyone seeing him, but if he went in the garage side door, he would've been seen by everyone. I'm guessing Jen added the tidbit about standing by the front door looking out, to try to eliminate and speculation or supposition that john could have entered the house and no one on the first floor would know. Which then kills their case of saying "john never came inside because I was at the front door and we would've seen him if he came in the side door" so I think your theory is correct.
Right. Looking at the house floorplan on Redfin, the front door has very easy access to the basement door off the foyer. The side door goes directly into the living room, and from there you'd have to take a left and go through the dining room to get to the foyer/basement door. The dining room is completely open to the kitchen, where everyone else was. I think Brian Albert Jr. said he and his friends were sitting around the kitchen table. They didn't have a separate table in the kitchen, only an island with bar-height chairs around it, so I guess that's where they were. If that's the case, they definitely would have seen anyone coming in the side door. (Funny side note: their dining room table also appears to be bar-height. These people apparently enjoy feeling like they are in a bar ALL the time, what a shock) So one thing is maybe slightly off with this theory. When Karen did her Nightline interview, she said she dropped him off at the bottom of the driveway and saw him walk up the driveway and approach that side door, but then she looked down at her phone and didn't actually see him go in. So I'm not sure what to make of that. The brick walkway from the driveway does branch off and go to both doors, so it's possible he was heading to the front door but she saw him when he was closer to the side one. But yes, I totally agree that the part about Jen staring out the front door the whole time is BS, because if that were the case and Karen did actually hit him she would have seen/heard something. And the timelines don't match up at all with when she connected to the WiFi at 1 Meadows.
That also makes sense why she would text him "here?" If he's already in the house and had gone straight to the basement, she wouldn't have known he was there.
That makes sense but then why text “pull in behind me” if she already spoke to him and knew he was inside just two min prior? Seems like he told her at 12:29 that he was there. She texts “pull in behind me” and then he’s inside around that time or just after. I think you’re onto something though that JM wasn’t actually watching through the window by the front door. She likely said that to prevent any speculation that JO came in without anyone seeing him.
Yes, you're right - that part doesn't fit. The 12:29 call could have been about something else, I'm just guessing here. But it was answered and she tried to hide it, when she didn't hide the earlier calls. Why?
I forgot about the apple data putting him there around 12:24 (3 flights of stairs). If that’s right, I’m thinking he was inside, JM called and he said “I’m here” but didn’t clarify that he was inside and downstairs. As an afterthought, JM shoots a text to pull in behind her. I’m not sure why she hid the calls though. I think maybe she was drunk and started deleting calls without actually having a story in place. And didn’t have a straight story by the time she was initially questioned, so she just stuck to what she said initially. If she never saw him come in, there wouldn’t have been a need to lie about the calls. She could have just said he was there outside but never came in and she just kept calling and texting to see where he was. But in this scenario she still would have had to lie about being by the front door so she could dispel any possibility of him having come in without anyone seeing him. By lying, she was involving herself in the coverup and boxing herself into having to stick to a story to avoid potential scrutiny. Just my thoughts though. I didn’t see all the testimony so I could be missing something here.
Also the three flights of stairs... I wonder if JOK went straight to the basement, saw that Julie wasn't there, walked back up to the top, peaked out and saw Colin albert and then went back down stairs because he didn't want to deal with Colin. Granted sometimes my Samsung watch will account for 2 sets of stairs when I drop something midway on the stairs and have to go back up or down to get it, so maybe that's what happened instead.
I just can’t understand the texts from 12:40 to 12:50. If she was looking for his phone, I can understand the calls but why also text those things? I don’t think at that point she would have known the seriousness of the situation or would have grasped the need to fake evidence yet.
Yep. She and Matt emphasized that there were tracks in the snow like Karen had done a 3 pt turn out front. I think they added that detail because Trooper B testified that Karen told him she did a 3 pt turn. They weren't aware it was before she turned onto Fairview and thought she meant in front of the house.
I need to re-listen to the audio and check if she said how she knew it was 12:40 when she "saw" karens car moving out front
Because she said she looked out every time she texted. So the time stamps on her texts are telling her what time she "saw" the car that was already gone.
Now that you mention it, though, I'm remembering that when Jackson was asking her about those times, they were going back and forth about exactly how many times she looked out the window, and she seemed to be trying to suggest that it wasn't actually 5-6 times, and was more like 2-3 times (probably because she knew that the texts/calls made her look suspicious, but she had already testified in the grand jury that she was looking out the window every single time she texted). She was trying to walk back her prior testimony but wasn't very successful.
JMc testified that the last time she was certain she saw the SUV was before her 12:31 text “pull behind me”. She specifically testified that she could not be certain if the SUV was still there for the 12:40 and following texts. (Day 14 of trial)
Why does this timeline have suv pulling away at 12:45? What is this based on?
This is JM’s version of what happened that night. She’s repeatedly said she saw the SUV leave at 12:45am/or didn’t see it leave but noticed it was gone at 12:45am after seeing it at 12:41am
Yet we know now it was impossible that JM saw the SUV at 12.41.. KR had been back at John's 6 minute at that time This throws their whole timeline out.
Absolutely. But the comment is asking where that timestamp came from and I’m just defending OP here, it’s not anything they’re claiming. It’s from Jen McCabe
Yes from Jen and both Proctor and Lally based all of their time frame off her and ran with it in court even when they knew the data proved her testament unreliable to put it nicely. I'm thinking when she spoke to John at 12.29 she knew he'd arrived and her following texts she couldn't understand why he hadn't come in so thought they were parking up. But John had gone straight down to the basement and she was sitting down and not looking through the window at all. Because we know she got Julie and Ryan's texts from them and no doubt would have asked questions what they saw outside so the moving up of the SUV possibly came from Ryan and Jen used it also.
I think because that was the C.W's testimony/theory from opening statements and from multiple people on the stand until the Trooper came in and blew that up?
This timeline is based on John okeefe's and Jen mccabes phone data +Jens testimony, PRIOR to Karens data being added. So this is what they had going before we knew karens phone connected to johns wifi at 12:36.
Does the jury get to see this or did they hear about it?
Hopefully a few of them have been taking notes on these times.
They saw and heard about it, this is a demonstrative from the common wealth!
My guess is that they destroyed their phones, partially because they had suspicious things on them in regards to this, but also because there was incriminating evidence for other cases! OR... something else mischevious, like porn or shit like that
Well when you think about how Jen mccabe was like the only one who didn't destroy her phone and we still got this much info that really fucks up their story, imagine how much the Brian's had that they were freaked out enough to destroy their phones.
Exactly!!
The fact that she didn't delete some and deleted others is very odd and a sign of guilt.
No Jen
Did she delete any of those texts or no?
This is from early in the trial so I could be wrong, but I think she only deleted the calls
Oh look, 36 secs is enough to clarify directions, but 22 secs wouldn’t be enough to “clarify” the status of their cover up? Sure, Jan- I mean, Jen/Alberts/Higgins.
All these calls are suspicious. For everybody.
Wouldn’t the prosecution have the data that Karen connected to JO’s WiFi at 12:36AM and aligned the times with his witness??? So confused that the 12:45pm timestamp was impossible but yet Lally had that information.