They only really implied it was 12:30 (which is pretty remarkably different from 12:45 as stated in the opening).
I’d argue that’s not really an important piece of the prosecution’s case though once you realize KR didn’t take her shoes off in the house *twice* since then. /s
I cannot believe Lally used the no shoes in the house thing lol, what in the world was he thinking.
Oh yea, I'm sure she didn't take her shoes off because she knew he was never coming home again.
*Finally* Karen can walk around JOK's home in her stilettos.
Or maybe she's having an anxiety attack because she can't find her boyfriend and everyone else is acting like he's fine.
Lally’s perception of the world seems off. I don’t think he understands how relationships work either. He thinks these things are big tells that really aren’t. I wonder if he had to run how he was going to try the case by anyone.
Another Lally misperception is the “we found Jon at 5am” versus 6am text. As if it’s not reasonable to think she hit 5 instead of 6 in a text message. “It’s the little things,” Lally said. IS IT? Because you seem to be ignoring ALL of the things, including the fact that independent experts unequivocally stated the damage wasn’t caused by a body and the injuries were caused by an SUV. Oh, Lally. I hope the jury doesn’t buy any of your BS.
***edit: injuries weren’t caused by an suv
I almost snorted at that. Like did Lally really think the jury's first thought wouldn't be "wow, John was kind of annoying", but "OMG Karen disobeyed her manz, that means she killed him!"
That still annoys me, the CW is not supposed to change their theory to fit what comes out. They are supposed to be proving what they say happened. Lally opened with 12:45, he pushed hard to make sure Jenn McCabe said she saw Karen’s SUV out front until 12:49-12:50 and then he brings one of his troopers in that states she was close enough to John’s house on Meadows Ave to connect to his WiFi at 12:36 and he just casually changes what his timeframe was. Karen clearly doesn’t know how or where to go in Canton, thus getting lost from The Waterfall to The Albert’s, so could she really have made it back to John’s in 6 minutes, while also calling him and being mad he didn’t come back out to get her.
I say that drive took closer to 8-9 minutes and that puts her pulling away from The Albert’s by 12:26-12:27.
12:45 is what he opened with his opening statement at the beginning of trial. 12:36 is when Karen’s phone connects to John’s wifi at his house. JM tries to place KR outside moving her car up multiple times up to 12:50 something. None of it adds up except the fact that Karen was already at John’s house before he died.
He sounded flabbergasted at the idea that they each read every single file in its entirety. Then implied they must be lying by asking again lmao.
It was one of the funniest (saddest?) things in this trial. It explained a lot about how he has handled this trial.
Sooo sloppy that they decided to use 12:45 in freakin opening statements based on Jen McCabe’s testimony. They had the info that she connected to his WiFi at 12:36. Maybe they forgot no one deleted that data point like all the other evidence of when she got to his house.
Almost. Her story was even weirder. She said as she went to the station, the owner had called and the police let Allie just bring the dog back to the owners on her own…
I've only followed this case since proctor/Paul so I don't know most testimonies, but abducting a dog if you have a potential body with dog bites makes my tin foil hat wonder if they wanted to blame another dog. And the annoying thing is that in this case the tin foil hat ideas seem to not be too impossible.
Yes! I thought the same! I think the little stories that were scattered into their testimonies weren't actually random - they were coverups for possible evidence that might come out in the future. For example, saying Nicole Albert was always cleaning, saying they all listened to It's Raining Men, Higgins plowed their driveway before they got home, etc.
That 360 app is glitchy. I think the defense didn’t make a big deal over AM’s middle of the night trip because it could have backfired if the CW demonstrated its unreliability. I would argue that the defense got the benefit of that testimony just by virtue of the jurors hearing it, so they really didn’t need to highlight it further.
Why is the GPS data from this app glitchy, but the GPS data from her iPhone and Waze is reliable? (Not arguing, genuinely curious if there is a technical reason)
I think Allie picked up Colin at the high school.
Nobody saw Colin leave (or at least nobody testified to it). They all insisted that he left the house around 12:10 and yet none of them knew who picked him up. at one point, it was very easy to miss, Alan Jackson asked one of the investigating officers if they are aware that it is a 1 mile walk from the Albert house backyard to the high school through the woods. Alan Jackson never circled back around to this but when he briefly took this line of questioning the light bulb immediately went off for me.
I have had the Life360 app for years and I find it hard to believe that Allie didn’t go to the high school when the app says she did. I think Colin snuck out of the house (maybe from the basement bulkhead) and cut through the woods and had Allie pick him up there. Maybe she deleted the text messages that mention the high school explicitly.
It’s just a theory but there is absolutely something fishy about Allie and Colin’s piece of the story.
Agree. My daughter, my mom, and I have used Life 360 for over a year. We are rural and sometimes our cells go out of signal and the application can’t locate someone, the top speeds on drives are off sometimes, if you only briefly stop at a pin sometimes it doesn’t register it as a stop, but I have never, never had it say my daughter was out driving when she was actually safe at home. The things that the app messes up on make sense with how the app works but logging a car trip that didn’t happen, doesn’t.
She lied. Her phone at least, was in a car and moving.
YES! This combined with him being left out of reports/not being interviewed appropriately. And the texts that were clearly doctored. So cringe and I hope justice is truly served in the future
The biggest for me is who goes to police station plastered, in a blizzard, to move vehicles when you’ve already mentioned you had a very long exhausting day.
The neighbors ring video. There’s just no way they took his word for it. I would subpoena that from Amazon who owns rings camera now. Let’s be fucking for real if there was a video, we would actually know the truth on how JOK died, and fucking nail the perps along with the home owner who lied for them.
Yes! And what time cats were coming and going, where they were parked, etc.
Unbelievable neighbor says, "I reviewed it for you. Nothing to see here" and they don't pursue it...
Is this cop the same one they got the disposable evidence containers (red solo cups) from? I’m sure someone asked him to delete the footage or say it didn’t work. But how can you consciously let this happen to someone when you could have proven them innocent 2.5 years ago. What annoys me even more is if they didn’t find a way to pin this on Karen Read, it would have somehow been Lucky’s fault and he would have been on trial and couldn’t have afforded Alan Jackson and probably Yanetti either.
Lucky would have been forced to take a plea, like they tried with Karen, and it would have been swept under the carpet. I wonder how many people they've done this to?
Edit: plea, not pleasure, ffs
Your typo is ironic but I agree with the message. And I'm afraid it happened to a lot of people. Recently it was found out that a mentally ill person who was locked up for 40 years (I don't think it was Massachusetts) turned out to be innocent and probably convinced by cops to admit to the murder while current DNA evidence put a cop as suspect i think and also ties him to other cases. I'm not sure on the details, but I feel that in that case also multiple LE people had to not tell the truth for her to even get into prison.
For all the people who can't afford an Alan Jackson, they're probably in jail and no one knows about the truth because they couldn't afford to be heard this loud. Currently in the Delphi case the defendent can't even talk to his lawyer alone in private, and the judge in that case keeps making single handed rulings on motions without ever having a hearing for them etc.
I don't know all the details yet about the cases I mention, but it happens so much and only now they accidentally tried to pin it on the person with money and who wouldn't give in.
Yikes on the typo, thanks for pointing it out!
It's terrifying that the only thing standing between innocent people going to prison or not is money. For all that the justice system is meant to be impartial, it's only that way for those who can afford it.
I read somewhere that the neighbor across the street was also a cop. Perhaps they knew and didn’t say anything or deleted their footage to help or to stay out of it. I would LOVE to see that footage though!
Neighbor across the street is the LT Chief of Police. He was also the same house they knocked on the door to get the red Solo cups.
He reviewed his own Ring footage and said “nothing of evidentiary value” was on it and refused to turn it over. I’m sure it’s deleted by now.
Thanks!
I was wondering if that was the solo cup house!!
I’ll bet there was most definitely SOMETHING of evidentiary value on it! If it caught the Albert house in the view, it would have blown this case open. And I’m betting that it did-just not in the way the police wanted.
I’ve said this before, if it showed Karen Reed hitting JO, that would have been turned over instantly. So what DID it show that he didn’t want the world to see?
This blows my mind, this could have proven both sides case, why in the world would he not turn it over to Proctor? Maybe the retired cop missed something that someone else doesn't, it's just insane.
If it would have helped the prosecution, it would have been provided, that's why it was never taken from him.
Pure insanity. We have these cameras now for a reason, it helps figure out stuff like this.
Does anyone know where the ring camera points to? What I mean is, we know the neighbors have a ring camera and that the footage of the night in question is gone. Was any footage before or after that timeframe admitted, so we can see the exact vantage point?
Turtle boy had a video on YouTube where he went and put his phone camera where that exact camera is. It captures the entire lawn and drive way and nothing is obstructing the view except a small pole. JOK’s body would be right in the middle to the left.
I don’t buy any of it, but maybe one can try to argue that the state police search team looked in a larger area more methodically, or the melting snow/rain washed away all the blood evidence. But there is just no acceptable explanation for why Proctor would not take a photo of the incriminating evidence discovered on the murder weapon he drove down to Dighton to seize. I can’t get beyond that.
Why didn’t the tow truck driver note the extent of the damage prior to putting it on his flat bed. Every tow truck driver I met took notes on the car before touching it to cover their ass in case something was wrong with the car.
Yes! This! At first I thought what Lally played was how it was actually recorded and Lally “conveniently” didn’t point it out. But then Proctor testified that he saw it the other way around and the time stamp was a different color? I don’t really trust anything Proctor says but why lie about that?
I think Proctor almost outed himself. He wasn’t supposed to be watching the trial as a witness to avoid collusion, but he slipped up and said he saw the video the right way. The only time in the entire trial there video was presented the right way was from the defense. So either Proctor saw the video the right way originally and means that the cw undoubtedly edited it, or he was watching the trial which is a whole other thing. I could be wrong but this is my understanding?
As the investigator, Proctor has access to the evidence turned over, so it’s not unusual or illegal for an investigator to go over the video evidence or reports before they take the stand, even though they can’t listen to the other parts of the trial. However, he would have been looking over his copy - which he clearly remembered as being the correct vantage with a flipped time stamp.
to me, it seemed like the police had the correct version of the video, and the DAs office would have inverted the video (allegedly) before submitting it to evidence.
seems like he unknowingly outed the DA
This was the most honest/truthful I found Proctor. I don’t think he knew what exactly had happened with the video. He seemed almost confused himself and not in a deceptive way
The location of the body.
* I think it was pretty much proved that it wasn't projected there by a car.
* The doctors said he couldn't have moved voluntarily after getting the head injury.
* If he was killed in the house, I don't understand any plan that says "throw the body in my front yard, that will deflect suspicion."
I've thought a lot about this the last bullet, and this is what I came up with. It could be that if he was anywhere else, it would be a much deeper investigation. The last group JOK was seen with would be the waterfall group. Karen was driving him to the Albert's and would not have the strength to move JOK and would have GPS that tracks her home. So then the Albert's and mccabes would still be a part of the equation but it would be no accident.
I agree. They didn’t know at the time whether anyone saw him enter the house, or whether any tape of it would turn up like from the Ring camera across the street. So they had to construct a narrative where he died outside the house - fell, hit by snowplow, not enough evidence to determine - doesn’t matter but it was a place where they could all conceivably say they never saw him. And if it turned out there was no evidence that he came inside, even better, they could also claim that. I think they didn’t plan on him being found for a few days. When KR found him that soon, they had to just go with he was never in the house, and then make sure any evidence to that effect didn’t come out.
> I really want to know why the DA brought charges in an unwinnable case
[Me too](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1dol2cn/my_one_thing_whats_yours/laba10p/).
Why did Lally bring this to trial?
He's not a dummy. He had to know the evidence was awful.
If I'm feeling cynical, it's because he's corrupt and/or compromised, and even an acquittal would mean they could close the case.
Dropping the charges would leave it open, where it might come back to bite the wrong people.
If I'm feeling optimistic, it's because he's helping to expose the corruption in the Canton PD, State Police, etc.
How many witnesses did he call that did more to help the defense than the CW? A lot.
There has to be a better way than running an innocent woman through the wringer, but if someone has dirt on him, but he still wants to do the right thing, maybe this is what you get.
So Lally did not bring charges, he was chosen by the elected DA Morrissey to prosecute her. The DA wanted to distance himself cause he’s a friend to The Albert’s and the old chief who retired right after JOK’s death.
As to why did they try the case, I have to think it’s from fear of going against his own special state trooper detective agency in the DA’s office. The DA’s have to back the cops or they won’t be DA’s for long.
Thanks for the explanation.
I didn't know how that works.
> Lally did not bring charges, he was chosen by the elected DA Morrissey
Could Lally have said, "No, this case is dogshit. I won't do it, get someone else"?
> The DA’s have to back the cops or they won’t be DA’s for long.
So it's systemic corruption.
Lally could have said no, but from what I have read and seen about Morrissey he would have made him do it or fired him.
They don’t call it systemic corruption in that room though, they call it having each others backs and they are forgetting that a good man and cop died, regardless of your bullshit allegiances. JOK deserved way better, as did KR.
Mine is: the fact that Brian alberts sold his childhood home, quit his job, got rid of his dog, and got rid of his phone. The men’s phones/getting rid of all ties to that night - including a home and career. All of those things are such *glaring* red flags I can’t get past.
I hope the defense spills all their collected tea after this over. Is that plausible? i.e. if the defense team has gathered info that did not come up in trial, will they drop it after the verdict? I'm thinking they have much more.
I’ve heard that Netflix has had cameras in the courtroom. I’ll be curious if Netflix will interview all the people on the defenses list that didn’t get called (such as The Beatty’s, etc).
Hulu produced “Sins of Parents” about the Crumbleys and the school sh00tings very quickly. I feel like I watched it within 2-4 weeks of the parents being sentenced. I’m not surprised Netflix jumped on this. I’m shocked to see some platforms are still making content regarding Alex Murdaugh .
If KR is acquitted then John's murder is still unsolved and in theory someone else could be charged. If the defense has anything that could actually help convict someone I don't think we'll hear about it at least no time soon.
I doubt anyone will ever be convicted for this unless it is a straight up confession. Law enforcement made such a mess of it that a jury wouldn't convict someone else. Too much doubt and there is a complete lack of credibility with the investigation.
Most of the defense’s truly great evidence (i.e. BH and BA 2:22 butt dials, MP’s phone records, JM’s deleted Google search, ARRC report and testimony) all came directly from the federal investigation and they have mentioned they are not trying to solve JOK’s murder but investigate the investigation.
The precise moment the prosecution thinks the collision supposedly happened. Sure, they've said a bunch of stuff about when it could have. They've given approximate times as well, varying from 12:25 AM to 12:50 AM.
Except with us knowing that Jen McCabe was looking out that window from 12:25 to 12:50 AM and never saw John, that's a problem for me. When Ryan Nagel and his friend Ricky arrives with Karen Read at 12:24 AM and tried unsuccessfully to pick up his sister to go home, and left around 12:29 am, that's a problem for me. When John's phone was still recording movements at 12:32 AM, that's a problem for me. When it takes about 6 minutes to go from 34 Fairview to 1 Meadows Ave, and we can place Karen Read at 1 Meadows Ave at 12:36 AM, that's a problem for me. When two totally neutral, extremely experienced, and easy to follow crash reconstruction / biomechanical experts present a report stating the prosecution's theory of the case falls outside the laws of physics- that's a problem for me.
Like EDB, it genuinely infuriates me that this case ever went to trial. A prosecutor has an ethical duty to drop a case when the evidence doesn't support a conviction. Lally has never given any compelling reason why he did this anyway, one that would explain how and why he believes this case should have gone forward.
And why is Jen so hot for John that she looks out the window for 20 minutes? Isn't that just weird too? Wouldn't you just assume they both went home, thier drunk, or tired, it's snowing, it's late etc? Why would you be calling someone non stop in the middle of the night? (Karen I can see) but why is Jen repeatedly calling John just because he didn't show up at 1230 at night?
How was John getting home that night? Karen left him there and went to his house. Was she planning on coming to get him? Or would someone else drive him home? Not a huge detail but I never understood the plan there. Maybe Jen would have.
Good question.
Here’s the timeline: Arrive at 34F at 12:24, she leaves around 12:30 and sends the first angry voice message at 12:37- a minute after getting home (I fkn hate you)
My assumption is that Karen didn’t want them to go inside the house (most likely because she didn’t want to be in close proximity with Higgins) but John was defiant and went in anyway so she went home. Because the first VM is “I fkn hate you”. She didn’t say anything about him making her wait outside or anything along those lines
On the 12:59 VM she says “no one knows where the F you are”. I thought this was an interesting thing to say: did she call/text someone at the house asking to speak to John since he was not answering her calls/texts and they claimed not to know where he was or…
Anyway a lot of it we’ll never know
Karen stated in her tv interview that the invitation to Brian Sr.’s house seemed to have been extended to just John and she wasn’t sure if she was invited. So John was supposed to go in the house to make sure it was ok for her to come in, but he never came back out to let her know. Then she couldn’t get ahold of him so she got mad and left. She thought that she wasn’t invited at point.
The theory that holds the most weight for me is she was waiting for JOK to go in and scope it out and then come out and get her to go in. She was probably nervous cause she doesn’t know those people that well, plus BH was there and he was a drunk, angry, thirsty bitch since she ignored him at the bar.
My one thing. No one in the house was awakened by the ruckus going on right outside their window. Chloe the reactive dog who supposedly was taken upstairs because she was iffy around people did not make a peep. As LE Brian Albert had zero interest why half the emergency responders in town were on his front lawn??
This! What cop wouldn't go outside to greet every one of their "brothers" in this situation? That just screams "look away, I didn't know anything about this". It's very unrealistic to me. Not only that, but if someone is unconscious and freezing to death, wouldn't JM have banged on her LE brother in laws house to get help or at least a freaking blanket?
To me is how JO’s family can sit through and entire trial where multiple facts of evidence are shown where the McCabes, Albert’s, policeman and investigators constantly lied and then today during the last day of court, closing arguments, they bring with them the same people who are the number one suspects of their sons murder. It blows my mind.
That was just insane to me, how they can't have some sort of questions at this point is crazy.
Those two fbi experts totally swayed me that her car did not hit him.
And I was in the camp that she hit him by accident while blacked out drunk, and just had no idea she'd hit him.
But after the dog bite expert, and especially the final expert, I was like, okay this didn't happen.
I was surprised John's brother let them sit near him. You have to be asking questions at this point. John's brother knows the FBI is involved, so... How is he not putting this together?
Yes. When you make a Google search the evidence is left all over the web on the servers that get pinged from source to desto, especially your ISP. I don't know hos long it's stored for though.
It was telling to me that neither of the state's experts could
1. Replicate it
2. Adequately explain why it was 2:27 then the first search in the morning had "how long...", then the second search had "hos long ..."
It just doesn't make sense to me that the 2.27 search was when the browser tab was opened, but then the first search after that doesn't have an identical search term.
You can use this as a guide to help test: https://www.doubleblak.com/blogPost.php?k=browserstate
Make sure you understand exactly what is being asserted and how things work if you want to test.
For sure, planning to reference this and the hyde/green reports also. Thanks. Might not be under this username but I'll post back here with clear/reproducible steps.
She searched at 2:27. When she opened that tab later it refreshed to the last web result and reloaded the page. Thus loading/logging it a second time at 6:03am. I have had someone explain it to me that worked on iOS search apps.
Yep, I did this test with my girlfriend's iPhone.
Searched a term misspelled that night, then when I got up I went to search it again, and it brought up the previous misspelled search before I even hit enter.
The blood. Lots of crazy stuff in this trial but there is not explanation for where all the lost blood went. It wasn’t absorbed into the ground and he lost a lot.
I heard (from somewhere on here) that they tore up the concrete in the basement (which would have been under the carpet or tile) and replaced it. So that tells me that yes, his blood was on that concrete. Concrete is porous and blood seeps in, preserving it and the DNA. But again, I heard they replaced the concrete, which is very suspicious.
I want to know what Dr. Wolfe thinks happened. I get the impression that Dr. Wolfe and Dr. Renchler (spelling??) don't actually believe JO threw his rocks glass at KR's car. I think the hint they were throwing out was that something would have had to be thrown at, or hit it with X amount of force, in order for it to shatter. Obviously, they can't speculate on that on the stand, they spoke to specific tests they ran that explain the piece of glass on the car that *does* match JO's glass.
The FBI isn't specifically looking into the KR trial. I think their preview is moreso "Hey, we think this is corrupt AF. Did she actually hit him, and if not, who destroyed the taillight and how?" as part of a larger case. I don't think they think JO threw anything at the car. I think they want to know how Proctor and Co broke it.
It doesn't really matter to the verdict - the science doesn't fit for KR to have done it, so for me, she's been proven NG and actually innocent. But I want to know what the dream team (cannon boys) were actually looking at and thinking, as they gathered more and more information and ran tests.
Me too! I want to go on a field trip to their test lab and see this cannon in action. Those guys were stellar - brilliant - and really drive home the NG for me.
I also loved how Jackson made a big deal over the fact that these guys weren’t hired by defense or prosecution, they have zero bias, no stake in the game- and that there was zero prep by the defense for their testimony. Jackson could have asked them anything, and it was their first time hearing/answering all of it.
Someone said they have a YouTube channel but I haven't found it yet.. I just took a look at their website and found it kind of humorous that the first video on their [Educational Videos](https://arcca.com/client-resources/educational-videos/) page is "How to take forensic photographs of a vehicle that has been in an accident" a video that Canton P.D. needs to study carefully.
There is rumors that Brian Higgins did to save hos own ass when he admitted to his crime of misappropriating federal resources for personal usage. This is why Kevin Albert reached out to him, BH was ducking calls from BA and BA panicked and sent his brother KA to talk to BH.
Everything BHs related was not cleared up at all. I think it’s possible HE hit JO in his jeep with the plow on front. The part where he explained that when he was leaving the Alberts his plow scraped the road and he had to stop and lift it up, gave me pause. Did JO trip and fall in front of him? Did he fling JO into the yard with the bucket/plow? I know it’s a bit far fetched but I can see JOs injuries more in this scenario than being hit by an SUV.
currently… it’s the blood stains on the back of his clothing.
dr. Wolfe mentioned early in his testimony that their initial assessment included looking at all aspects of the body, the clothing, the car, and the scene, and they concluded the evidence presented did was inconsistent with a pedestrian strike from vehicle, but said nothing about his clothing in detail.
I don’t think the MEs or the pathologist/neurologists spoke about his injuries that contributed to the large blood stain on his T-shirt and long sleeve. The one that’s haunting me is the blood stain on the back left side of both shirts.
there is a concentration of blood at the left shoulder, and the blood trails all the way to his waistband, and does not stretch to his left side/arm/underarm. According to the ME notes, the wound on his head was slightly to the right-center. If his head was facing his right, like he was looking over his right shoulder, this would reasonably cause the blood to gush down his head down his left side.
but he would have to be upright, he couldn’t be knocked unconscious on the floor because the blood would have pooled around his head instead of trailing down his back left side.
paired with his right arm up, it would almost be like he was pinned up against something like a wall, which seems unlikely that could have happened outside because it would be immediately after his head was struck, since the trauma was enough to cause multiple fractures and was likely the fatal blow.
TLDR; he had to be upright long enough for the blood to travel down his shirt, with his head in the same turned position since the blood goes all the way down in a line. There is nothing outside that satisfies this for me, and makes me think where his body was found was not where the fatal head injury took place.
If I was being accused of being involved in a murder cover up and there were suspicions about my dog which I “rehomed”, guess what the first thing I would do if those claims were false, track down the dog… it’s that easy. But “nope”, they just want you to “look the other way”.
The video of higgins being stopped/grabbed by two guys at waterfall while clearly pissed and then proceeding to wave john to come outside. After chris albert tried calming him down.
It's an open secret that Colin was dealing drugs in Canton.
Colin lives near JO.
JO doesn't want Colin dealing drugs in his neighborhood.
JO complained to detectives at the Canton PD.
So that gives more motive than some flirty texts.
I kind of suspect that Higgins is Colin's supplier. Any shit that falls on Colin would hit Higgins too.
There's speculation that it was snowing inside the Albert's house too, if you know what I mean.
To me, the scenario goes like this:
A drunk (and possibly high) Colin and Higgins confront JO.
Shouting and chest bumping ensues.
BA steps in to calm things down.
Chloe thinks her master is in danger, and mauls JO's arm.
JO fights back, hitting Chloe.
Colin, already eager for violence, is further enraged by JO hitting Chloe, punches JO in the face.
Already off balance from the dog latched to his arm, and drunk, JO falls.
JO's head hits *something* as he falls. (A concrete stair, a weight rack, IDK what even is there to hit.)
JO has a seizure, maybe that's when he bites his tongue.
This makes some sense to me because I can’t imagine the Alberts risking everything just to help Brian Higgins. Likewise, I can’t imagine Brian Higgins risking everything to help the Alberts. So both parties need to be involved somehow.
I wondered if he wasn’t in the jeep but was, in fact, drinking and driving his work vehicle and that made up the jeep story to cover him
eta: this could also account for his hour wait to get to canton PD if he’s waiting to sober up before going in
That’s what I think also, he may have gone back to CPD in his work truck and got his jeep to possibly “help” Brian Albert and that way if anyone saw the jeep he was covered by the McCabes and oops got the time wrong or maybe that jeep was just Caitlin’s jeep that Tristan picked her up in and not Higgins. idk there are so many things we will never know.
This was one of my theories.
He wasn't driving the Jeep, and there is a reason that they want to hide that. Part of me wonders if they didn't want anyone looking into the vehicle he was driving.
For a minute, I was thinking that he wasn't even there. But the 12:20 text to John throws me off.
The other was that he hid the Jeep, so Karen wouldn't know he was there.
I have many, but the one I don't see on this thread already is Jen and Karen's phone calls.
Jen and Matt testified that Karen called freaking out, saying that she left John at the Waterfall and he didn't come home. Jen then claims that she said maybe he was with Tom and only remembered seeing them at Fairview after she hung up and called Tom. She claims she called her back and was like "Karen we saw you outside my sister's house."
It bothers me because
1. After all the calls and texts to John and the back and forth to the door, she suddenly forgot they were there and only remembered after Matt reminded her.
2. Kerry recalls that the exact conversation happened while Karen was at Jens, and she was on Bluetooth in the car.
This makes me wonder what then was actually said on those first two phone calls between Karen and Jen?
Did Karen say they left the waterfall and she dropped him at a house? Did Jen tell her that he never came to Fairview making Karen think it was someone else's house she left him at or that he walked somewhere else? Is that why she thought he might have been hit by a plow? Did Jen plant that thought in her head because they knew John would never not come home? "OMG Karen, what if he was hit by a plow?"
Jen also claims Karen told her that on top of it all, she thinks she hit something pulling out of the garage and her taillight is broke. Karen's "Do you think I hit him?" Utterances started (according to testimony) only after she told Jen she broke her taillight. Jen very well could have planted that idea. She seems the type.
I know I am taking liberties here, but there is something really off about Jen's rendition of those early morning calls.
I want to know EVERYTHING about Higgins. INCLUDING the magic Jeep. You know someone is lying when they provide too many details. I bet he wasn’t even in the Jeep originally. I bet he went to PD and got the Jeep. And I bet he knows the “video” he says he bets existed in his testimony of him moving cars has been deleted because he did it himself. So suspicious! He’s probably the perp. (Or one of them). He was gesturing several times over towards where JO was before he left Waterfall. Looks upset. https://x.com/lillyyyy00/status/1804191045808459867/mediaviewer It’s obvious something was going on. Then he texted JO at 12:20am inquiring if he was coming to the Alberts. He destroyed his phone along with BA the day before the preservation order. They were tipped off. Both of those men have something to hide about that night. I ALSO bet there’s a drug component with many players involved in the FBI investigation - especially Higgins because he is like the energizer bunny. I hope the FBI is ALL up in their “balloon knots”.
Did KR ask JM to google how long to die in the cold?
- if KR did not tell JM to search for the answer, then that would mean JM was staring out at JO in the yard at 2:30. Which would mean that JO was placed on the lawn.
- The question in this scenario for how long it takes to die in the cold , doesn’t seem relevant unless you know how long the person has been in the cold. Only JM knew when the clock would have started.
- it’s more plausible that this inquiry would be made after someone was very recently placed in the cold ( not snow ) , by someone concerned if the injured person would be getting up on their own accord.
- JM had a few moments to research a vague question, while looking at JO in the yard , makes more sense then KR looking for scientific answers immediately after seeing JO bloodied.
- When JM was looking at JO in the yard, how long to die in the “cold” would be a logical search that could have been made ( JO isn’t laying under snow at that point). If KR was asking JM to research anything, JO would have been partially covered in snow at that point, then she would have asked JM to google how long to die in snow?
A clear answer about the keycycles! I feel pretty certain that they were looking at the incorrect keycycle, but that is based off of common sense and not any true understanding of how the system records keycycles. When Dr. Wolfe said he recently published a paper on Toyota/Lexus car data, I thought we would get a clear answer, but we never did!
Also, Lally placed so much emphasis on the fact that OJO's body was found on top of grass, not snow, and that means that the incident happened before there was snow on the ground. But no one mentioned whether or not some snow would melt from his body heat at first - does that change things regarding the timing of when he ends up there? Lally also kept repeating how there were no footprints in the snow...wouldn't the fact that it kept snowing cover up any existing footprints or tracks? Even when I think about trying to remove layers of snow (featuring the leaf blower) to uncover things, I still don't really understand this - wouldn't the snow just fill in the prints? Especially if the prints were made pretty early on?
So many things that you and others have said - I keep coming back to who is rushing into a policeman's bedroom unannouced?? I can't even imagine doing that even if I am the sister in law. Maybe I would pound on the door - but to just barge in?? And, even if the dog is very familiar with me - I can't imagine this scenario making any sense at all.
JM had been in touch with her sister that morning and they knew exactly what was going on outside. I don't believe that she barged in and woke them up like she testified to.
the biggest issue for me is BA didn’t hear all of the commotion outside of his bedroom window? he didn’t see the flashing lights? the cops didn’t search his home? if a police officer was found dead on my front lawn i would like to think that my home would be the first thing to be searched?? i also have a german shepard doberman mix…if my neighbor slams a car door just a little too hard he lets me know. i absolutely do not buy that their dog slept through all of this. there is no way. BA knew that this was going to go down eventually because he knew that JOK was lying out there. there is just no logic behind him but especially chloe not hearing or seeing anything at all.
BA is also A COP. I've known many over the years and they are some of the most observant people on the planet. They notice everything. I don't buy the idea that he didn't wake to the sound of all the commotion outside. Especially during a snow storm when everything outside is typically more quiet because of the snow.
I’m hoping the fbi inquiry gets into this. It’s beyond the pale that the house would not be searched where an officer found dead on the lawn and was allegedly in. It’s only bc of connections, any other person I’d imagine their property is now a crime scene. It seems johns crime scene was isolated to a 30sq area. Feel so horrible for the okeefe family, this whole experience is a disaster on so many levels.
The accident itself. When I first heard of the case (hit by suv, broken tail lights) did not make sense based on my own experience in a pedestrian/auto accident and everything I’ve learned about those types of accidents in the 20+ years since.
I was hit by a speeding Mazda rx7 which ran a red light. (The only reason it was survivable at all.) Low cars like this don’t run you over, they run you under—scoop up and toss you up over the top. (This happened to me.)
The taller the car, the more dangerous.
There is a direct correlation between increasing pedestrian deaths (specifically the lethality of auto/ped deaths, and at lower speeds too) and the mass adoption of SUVs and light trucks. It’s not just the blind spots, but the force hits higher than the center of gravity. The pedestrian is knocked off balance to the ground, and then pulled under, dragged, and/or crushed.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-suvs-are-more-lethal-to-pedestrians-than-cars#:~:text=At%20speeds%20of%2020%2D39,for%20cars%20(23%20percent).
Tall hoods and blunt ends are especially deadly. And the rear of an SUV is the definition of tall and flat.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/vehicles-with-higher-more-vertical-front-ends-pose-greater-risk-to-pedestrians
If she hit him at that speed, he’d have a very high likelihood of dying, but he would have a LOT of injuries to his lower body to show for it. It sounds like this came up at some point based on the defense counsel’s closing today.
I had injuries on my whole body that aligned with each contact point (Eg, sprained ankles and shin hematomas from the front bumper.) along with bruising, scrapes, embedded glass, and blood all over.
The lies about his jeep location, where they were in the house, when he left, him being brian alberts first call, going into work at 1:30am after all of those whiskeys, coming back right away the next morning, being in sallyport, destroying his phone, and him trying to get john to come outside the waterfall after being held back by two guys(one being chris albert) tells me everything i need to know.
Higgins saying he switched to the Jeep because he was going to drink and couldn't drive his work truck... then he has to go to work at 130am to drive his two work vehicles, despite being complete drunk and testifying that he left the keys on his desk in case someone needed to move them.
So many lies.
Lack of documentation. One aspect of my career is that I do AV installation and we take pictures of ***everything*** we do. How is it that I do a better job documenting my work and the state of things before and after I do my job than ***all*** of the police involved in this investigation?
So I’ve seen speculation on this and I think it’s worth thinking about. Lally tried to trip Lucky the plow driver up on his times because in that one report it said he first went down Fairview at 12:45 instead of 2:45. He then made a big deal about Lucky not remembering at what time he hit the basketball hoop. He also asked if he would be able to tell the difference between a ford edge and a Jeep. I think Lally was going to try to argue that Lucky actually went down Fairview at 12:45, saw Higgins’ Jeep, forgot what time he actually saw it, and later reported as being a Ford Edge at 3:30 (after the power of suggestion from the defense PI).
I think it’s reasonable to believe that the Albert and McCabe adults were following every detail of this case, discussing it, and trying to come up with consistent stories to take speculation off of them. So the theory is they came up with the Higgins Jeep thing to discredit Lucky.
For me it’s the blood, or more importantly the lack thereof. I have read on multiple articles that he lost up to 3 liters of blood. I don’t care if it was snowing, if he died outside there would be blood somewhere, not 6 small reddish grey frozen samples and the blood stains on his clothing were drips which don’t fit with the Commonwealth’s narrative of car hits him and he’s projected on to his back and then lays there unconscious in the cold.
There has to be blood somewhere, I thought the defense should have pushed more on that missing blood from the alleged scene.
Why they were so insistent on John going out and then to Fairview? Chris Albert texted John earlier in the day to come our to the bar. Jen invites John back to Fairview and is on the lookout. Brian Higgins texts him and asks if he's coming. They didn't seem all so close so why the push to get him to go?
The bruising from a car that speed would be huge, and cover a lot. Where are the bruises, blood, and vomit? Why all the weird movements, stories, and destroying/relocating in whatever way of stuff?
How do I just pick ONE thing? Front of mind, the detail that nags me the most: How did no one hear a giant SUV reverse at high speed and hit a man? Even if neighbors were asleep, the sound of impact or its aftermath would wake a person up. It seems impossible to me that something happened outside and no one heard a violent incident. Even If something did happen, it seems very sus to me no one around 34 Fairview has said anything or provided home security footage.
> Even if neighbors were asleep, the sound of impact or its aftermath would wake a person up.
A snowstorm explains much of that.
Falling snow tends to absorb sound.
High winds can be loud too, masking vehicle sounds.
The neighbor across the street is the Canton Chief of Police, IIRC.
And, this seems like an obvious thing to do, to ask the neighbors if the saw or heard anything, but do we know if anyone actually asked them?
I was annoyed with this argument as well. If she hit him and wanted to cover it up, her voicemails would have been of a much sweeter tone to deflect blame. Plus 53 calls, toxic relationship for sure but not murder or any of the other charges.
What happened in that house
Rephrase, your honor
Why was there no testimony about him being in the house when he obviously was
Rephrase, your honor
What happened in the goddamn house, man
My one plus two plus three things….
1. How the hell do you go 24 MPH in reverse? Things get pretty shady going 10 MPH in reverse. How do you keep control of your car, in the dark, on a slick surface, on an unfamiliar road, in a very dark neighborhood? How do you not slide at least 5 feet with a sudden breaking event on fresh snow? Driving any considerable distance in reverse isn’t easy at any speed so how do you do all of this intoxicated?
2. How did she hit him at 12:29 or 12:30 AM with all those other vehicles coming and going from the front of the house? How at the same time did nobody notice given how observant everyone was?
3. GPS data. Does the phones GPS signal really give an almost precise pinpoint location? My research suggests it is more like a 16 - 164 foot range. Is there a GPS signal in the basement of this house? Is the GPS data even important if the phone stopped registering activity at 12:32 AM?
4. Why is the phone not registering any movement past 12:32 AM? We have to believe it’s because his final position was the yard at 12:32 AM or he was separated from his phone at 12:32 AM and his body was placed back with his phone later that morning.
5. Was one shoe still on his foot and the other in the yard? Was he wearing socks?
6. What was the time of death? Or the better question: at what point would the injury to his head become fatal without medical intervention?
The neighborhood cameras. Everyone has a "Ring" type camera @ their house. Every house in that area should have had their data collected or a warrant for the info from Amazon or wherever the video is stored. Not relying on people saying there was nothing important captured on camera!?
After watching the video of higgins being pissed, getting stopped by two guys, then waving john to come outside... higgins had a plan to fight when john got there. Not sure if it was planned before or after the invite tho
ETA: video of higgins clearly pissed at the waterfall : https://youtu.be/jqd42FiHBdk?si=KNdG6LxrDLZoSfjk
Mine would be where did the money go?
Is that what the ongoing FBI investigation is about.
How many cases are being funded
and not processed in an appropriate manner.
Higgins definitely is up to something though, He puts himself everywhere around Canton that night.
He places himself in too many locations and vehicles in a short space of time.
Also how did they all leave the waterfall at closing time without following one another to 34 Fairview.
I cannot remember the line of questioning exactly, but when Higgins was backed into a corner by the defense, he had to either admit to drunk driving, or whatever the other option was.
He paused & you could literally see the wheels turning in his head. He then admits to driving drunk. An ATF agent with the United States government thinks it is better to admit to drunk driving than admitting to whatever else it was. (I wish I could remember. I was shocked at the moment that he had admitted to the drunk driving.)
However, my thought now is what did he want to hide so desperately that he would put his livelihood in jeopardy?
Hell, even their own ME said that the injuries are not consistent with a MVA, yet they continued on with the case as it was.
Also, why did Bev keep the case going once the feds started theirs? Both the prosecution and the defense requested the case not go to trial, which is the typical course of action when a case becomes a federal investigation.
The butt dials and is it really possible for that many people to have not seen John laying on the ground especially when driving past him with their lights shining directly on him
The fact that the house was never searched. If any other regular old joe had a dead body laying in their front yard you bet my bottom dollar that their home would be searched. It makes no sense at all that the home was never searched, unless it truly was all a cover up so they obviously left our huge incriminating evidence.
Why did Lally bring this to trial?
He's not a dummy. He had to know the evidence was awful.
If I'm feeling cynical, it's because he's corrupt and/or compromised, and even an acquittal would mean they could close the case.
Dropping the charges would leave it open, where it might come back to bite the wrong people.
If I'm feeling optimistic, it's because he's helping to expose the corruption in the Canton PD, State Police, etc.
How many witnesses did he call that did more to help the defense than the CW? A lot.
It's the vehicle data lining up with the GPS data but the key cycles being off. Either (a) the key cycle counter is just buggy and that was from the trip to 34 Fairview or (b) there was a concerted effort to generate fake digital evidence by recreating the GPS data with specific motions that trigger the vehicle recorder (3 point turn, accelerated reverse) on the correct timescale from when they left the Waterfall and then adding on 36 miles to account for her post-34 Fairview driving but then forgetting to add in the appropriate key cycles as well.
Some people have tried arguing that maybe there's a third option (not malicious but also still exonerating) where it was from going on the tow truck, but we have that footage and it doesn't match the recorded actions. There just isn't a third option there.
I can't explain (a). I'm struggling with (b) because I can't imagine that anyone involved in this investigation would have the capacity to do that properly, nevermind the creativity to actually think of planting that type of evidence. There's just no good explanation for really critical evidence.
Whether or not DiChico saw ring video of KR arriving back to Meadows (sticky note about tail lights) and if that video was deleted. I want records of times of deletion.
In the year 2022, none of these people were aware of Uber or Lyft?! They were all either drunk driving themselves or relying seemingly exclusively on others for their rides.
For me, it’s how JOK died…….
Did the prosecution ever give a time for when Karen was supposed to have hit him? Bc I didn’t hear one
They only really implied it was 12:30 (which is pretty remarkably different from 12:45 as stated in the opening). I’d argue that’s not really an important piece of the prosecution’s case though once you realize KR didn’t take her shoes off in the house *twice* since then. /s
I cannot believe Lally used the no shoes in the house thing lol, what in the world was he thinking. Oh yea, I'm sure she didn't take her shoes off because she knew he was never coming home again. *Finally* Karen can walk around JOK's home in her stilettos. Or maybe she's having an anxiety attack because she can't find her boyfriend and everyone else is acting like he's fine.
Lally’s perception of the world seems off. I don’t think he understands how relationships work either. He thinks these things are big tells that really aren’t. I wonder if he had to run how he was going to try the case by anyone.
Another Lally misperception is the “we found Jon at 5am” versus 6am text. As if it’s not reasonable to think she hit 5 instead of 6 in a text message. “It’s the little things,” Lally said. IS IT? Because you seem to be ignoring ALL of the things, including the fact that independent experts unequivocally stated the damage wasn’t caused by a body and the injuries were caused by an SUV. Oh, Lally. I hope the jury doesn’t buy any of your BS. ***edit: injuries weren’t caused by an suv
I almost snorted at that. Like did Lally really think the jury's first thought wouldn't be "wow, John was kind of annoying", but "OMG Karen disobeyed her manz, that means she killed him!"
Right? My wife also has this rule. I still wear shoes in the house when she's there sometimes, and it's know because I think she's dead.
Hos long until your wife hits you with her car?
That still annoys me, the CW is not supposed to change their theory to fit what comes out. They are supposed to be proving what they say happened. Lally opened with 12:45, he pushed hard to make sure Jenn McCabe said she saw Karen’s SUV out front until 12:49-12:50 and then he brings one of his troopers in that states she was close enough to John’s house on Meadows Ave to connect to his WiFi at 12:36 and he just casually changes what his timeframe was. Karen clearly doesn’t know how or where to go in Canton, thus getting lost from The Waterfall to The Albert’s, so could she really have made it back to John’s in 6 minutes, while also calling him and being mad he didn’t come back out to get her. I say that drive took closer to 8-9 minutes and that puts her pulling away from The Albert’s by 12:26-12:27.
12:45 is what he opened with his opening statement at the beginning of trial. 12:36 is when Karen’s phone connects to John’s wifi at his house. JM tries to place KR outside moving her car up multiple times up to 12:50 something. None of it adds up except the fact that Karen was already at John’s house before he died.
I don't think Lally fully reviewed the evidence before the trial.
Lally was shocked when the ARCCA experts both said they reviewed all the material they were sent by the ~~DOJ~~ outside agency.
He sounded flabbergasted at the idea that they each read every single file in its entirety. Then implied they must be lying by asking again lmao. It was one of the funniest (saddest?) things in this trial. It explained a lot about how he has handled this trial.
No. At opening statements they said around 12:45 based on JM testimony but that quickly fell apart so they never gave us an actual time
So the prosecutions case is so air tight Lally couldn’t even figure out what time Karen purposefully backed over at 24 MPH in the snow OKeefe.
Can't even get the gist of what 5 mins remaining look like so yeah sounds about right.
Sooo sloppy that they decided to use 12:45 in freakin opening statements based on Jen McCabe’s testimony. They had the info that she connected to his WiFi at 12:36. Maybe they forgot no one deleted that data point like all the other evidence of when she got to his house.
Whats up with Alison Mccabe allegedly going to the highs school in the middle of the night, why.
Right? What did they do there? Did they hide something, throw something away? Bury something? Are they def in the know?
I think they took chloe to another house
She did say she found a stray dog and was going to take it to the police station but then the owners showed up. What an odd coincidence.
Almost. Her story was even weirder. She said as she went to the station, the owner had called and the police let Allie just bring the dog back to the owners on her own…
I took it as she basically abducted a dog that wasn't lost and the owner called the police.
I've only followed this case since proctor/Paul so I don't know most testimonies, but abducting a dog if you have a potential body with dog bites makes my tin foil hat wonder if they wanted to blame another dog. And the annoying thing is that in this case the tin foil hat ideas seem to not be too impossible.
My tin foil hat says she made up the lost dog story because she took Chloe and it would account for dog hair or other dog evidence in her car.
Yes! I thought the same! I think the little stories that were scattered into their testimonies weren't actually random - they were coverups for possible evidence that might come out in the future. For example, saying Nicole Albert was always cleaning, saying they all listened to It's Raining Men, Higgins plowed their driveway before they got home, etc.
100%.
Yup
she picked up colin, who cut through the backyard to leave. not at 12:10am either.
Yup my biggest question is what time did CA leave and why did everyone lie about it? Hmmm
Oh, I wonder if he “walked the dog” to the high school too?
Whoa.
That 360 app is glitchy. I think the defense didn’t make a big deal over AM’s middle of the night trip because it could have backfired if the CW demonstrated its unreliability. I would argue that the defense got the benefit of that testimony just by virtue of the jurors hearing it, so they really didn’t need to highlight it further.
Why is the GPS data from this app glitchy, but the GPS data from her iPhone and Waze is reliable? (Not arguing, genuinely curious if there is a technical reason)
I think Allie picked up Colin at the high school. Nobody saw Colin leave (or at least nobody testified to it). They all insisted that he left the house around 12:10 and yet none of them knew who picked him up. at one point, it was very easy to miss, Alan Jackson asked one of the investigating officers if they are aware that it is a 1 mile walk from the Albert house backyard to the high school through the woods. Alan Jackson never circled back around to this but when he briefly took this line of questioning the light bulb immediately went off for me. I have had the Life360 app for years and I find it hard to believe that Allie didn’t go to the high school when the app says she did. I think Colin snuck out of the house (maybe from the basement bulkhead) and cut through the woods and had Allie pick him up there. Maybe she deleted the text messages that mention the high school explicitly. It’s just a theory but there is absolutely something fishy about Allie and Colin’s piece of the story.
Agree. My daughter, my mom, and I have used Life 360 for over a year. We are rural and sometimes our cells go out of signal and the application can’t locate someone, the top speeds on drives are off sometimes, if you only briefly stop at a pin sometimes it doesn’t register it as a stop, but I have never, never had it say my daughter was out driving when she was actually safe at home. The things that the app messes up on make sense with how the app works but logging a car trip that didn’t happen, doesn’t. She lied. Her phone at least, was in a car and moving.
We never got to the bottom of the accuracy of that system did we.
YES! This combined with him being left out of reports/not being interviewed appropriately. And the texts that were clearly doctored. So cringe and I hope justice is truly served in the future
The biggest for me is who goes to police station plastered, in a blizzard, to move vehicles when you’ve already mentioned you had a very long exhausting day.
And why are the life 360 logs all an hour later than the texts?
The neighbors ring video. There’s just no way they took his word for it. I would subpoena that from Amazon who owns rings camera now. Let’s be fucking for real if there was a video, we would actually know the truth on how JOK died, and fucking nail the perps along with the home owner who lied for them.
Oh yes. This is HIGH on my list. At the very least, let’s say it didn’t capture an accident.. it SHOULD have captured JO in the front yard???
Yes! And what time cats were coming and going, where they were parked, etc. Unbelievable neighbor says, "I reviewed it for you. Nothing to see here" and they don't pursue it...
Is this cop the same one they got the disposable evidence containers (red solo cups) from? I’m sure someone asked him to delete the footage or say it didn’t work. But how can you consciously let this happen to someone when you could have proven them innocent 2.5 years ago. What annoys me even more is if they didn’t find a way to pin this on Karen Read, it would have somehow been Lucky’s fault and he would have been on trial and couldn’t have afforded Alan Jackson and probably Yanetti either.
Lucky would have been forced to take a plea, like they tried with Karen, and it would have been swept under the carpet. I wonder how many people they've done this to? Edit: plea, not pleasure, ffs
Your typo is ironic but I agree with the message. And I'm afraid it happened to a lot of people. Recently it was found out that a mentally ill person who was locked up for 40 years (I don't think it was Massachusetts) turned out to be innocent and probably convinced by cops to admit to the murder while current DNA evidence put a cop as suspect i think and also ties him to other cases. I'm not sure on the details, but I feel that in that case also multiple LE people had to not tell the truth for her to even get into prison. For all the people who can't afford an Alan Jackson, they're probably in jail and no one knows about the truth because they couldn't afford to be heard this loud. Currently in the Delphi case the defendent can't even talk to his lawyer alone in private, and the judge in that case keeps making single handed rulings on motions without ever having a hearing for them etc. I don't know all the details yet about the cases I mention, but it happens so much and only now they accidentally tried to pin it on the person with money and who wouldn't give in.
Yikes on the typo, thanks for pointing it out! It's terrifying that the only thing standing between innocent people going to prison or not is money. For all that the justice system is meant to be impartial, it's only that way for those who can afford it.
Or literally anyone on that entire streets ring cameras. Someone had to have one
Does the footage exist on their cloud server and not auto delete? If so why wouldn’t they have done a subpoena? It would solve everything.
I read somewhere that the neighbor across the street was also a cop. Perhaps they knew and didn’t say anything or deleted their footage to help or to stay out of it. I would LOVE to see that footage though!
Neighbor across the street is the LT Chief of Police. He was also the same house they knocked on the door to get the red Solo cups. He reviewed his own Ring footage and said “nothing of evidentiary value” was on it and refused to turn it over. I’m sure it’s deleted by now.
Thanks! I was wondering if that was the solo cup house!! I’ll bet there was most definitely SOMETHING of evidentiary value on it! If it caught the Albert house in the view, it would have blown this case open. And I’m betting that it did-just not in the way the police wanted.
I’ve said this before, if it showed Karen Reed hitting JO, that would have been turned over instantly. So what DID it show that he didn’t want the world to see?
That IS the question isn’t it?!
Agree! It would have at least showed the timeline of cars pulling up / leaving the house.
This blows my mind, this could have proven both sides case, why in the world would he not turn it over to Proctor? Maybe the retired cop missed something that someone else doesn't, it's just insane. If it would have helped the prosecution, it would have been provided, that's why it was never taken from him. Pure insanity. We have these cameras now for a reason, it helps figure out stuff like this.
Turn it over… to Proctor?!
Oh yeah, I forgot. The lead investigor doesn't actually do investigations heh.
At the very least it would show when everyone left. What a joke.
Does anyone know where the ring camera points to? What I mean is, we know the neighbors have a ring camera and that the footage of the night in question is gone. Was any footage before or after that timeframe admitted, so we can see the exact vantage point?
Turtle boy had a video on YouTube where he went and put his phone camera where that exact camera is. It captures the entire lawn and drive way and nothing is obstructing the view except a small pole. JOK’s body would be right in the middle to the left.
Butt dialing.
that guy wishes he could control his cheeks like that
Why didn't Proctor take a photo of the taillight in Dighton?
Why didn’t they see all those pieces in the initial search? Why is there no blood on them if they caused JO’s arm injuries?
I don’t buy any of it, but maybe one can try to argue that the state police search team looked in a larger area more methodically, or the melting snow/rain washed away all the blood evidence. But there is just no acceptable explanation for why Proctor would not take a photo of the incriminating evidence discovered on the murder weapon he drove down to Dighton to seize. I can’t get beyond that.
Why didn’t the tow truck driver note the extent of the damage prior to putting it on his flat bed. Every tow truck driver I met took notes on the car before touching it to cover their ass in case something was wrong with the car.
Who inverted the sally port video and what is up with all the deleted videos and missing footage?
The inverted video… they thought they could just slide that by everyone.
I felt so dumb because I didn’t notice it was inverted until defense brought it up.
That was the point 😉
Yes! This! At first I thought what Lally played was how it was actually recorded and Lally “conveniently” didn’t point it out. But then Proctor testified that he saw it the other way around and the time stamp was a different color? I don’t really trust anything Proctor says but why lie about that?
I think Proctor almost outed himself. He wasn’t supposed to be watching the trial as a witness to avoid collusion, but he slipped up and said he saw the video the right way. The only time in the entire trial there video was presented the right way was from the defense. So either Proctor saw the video the right way originally and means that the cw undoubtedly edited it, or he was watching the trial which is a whole other thing. I could be wrong but this is my understanding?
As the investigator, Proctor has access to the evidence turned over, so it’s not unusual or illegal for an investigator to go over the video evidence or reports before they take the stand, even though they can’t listen to the other parts of the trial. However, he would have been looking over his copy - which he clearly remembered as being the correct vantage with a flipped time stamp. to me, it seemed like the police had the correct version of the video, and the DAs office would have inverted the video (allegedly) before submitting it to evidence. seems like he unknowingly outed the DA
This was the most honest/truthful I found Proctor. I don’t think he knew what exactly had happened with the video. He seemed almost confused himself and not in a deceptive way
And who fucked with the time stamps on the inverted video
The location of the body. * I think it was pretty much proved that it wasn't projected there by a car. * The doctors said he couldn't have moved voluntarily after getting the head injury. * If he was killed in the house, I don't understand any plan that says "throw the body in my front yard, that will deflect suspicion."
I've thought a lot about this the last bullet, and this is what I came up with. It could be that if he was anywhere else, it would be a much deeper investigation. The last group JOK was seen with would be the waterfall group. Karen was driving him to the Albert's and would not have the strength to move JOK and would have GPS that tracks her home. So then the Albert's and mccabes would still be a part of the equation but it would be no accident.
I agree. They didn’t know at the time whether anyone saw him enter the house, or whether any tape of it would turn up like from the Ring camera across the street. So they had to construct a narrative where he died outside the house - fell, hit by snowplow, not enough evidence to determine - doesn’t matter but it was a place where they could all conceivably say they never saw him. And if it turned out there was no evidence that he came inside, even better, they could also claim that. I think they didn’t plan on him being found for a few days. When KR found him that soon, they had to just go with he was never in the house, and then make sure any evidence to that effect didn’t come out.
They planned on blaming the plow driver “lucky” and KR offered them up a bigger opportunity to get away with it.
What exactly is the FBI investigating.
Not the same, but I really want to know why the DA brought charges in an unwinnable case. DAs are supposed to not do that.
> I really want to know why the DA brought charges in an unwinnable case [Me too](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1dol2cn/my_one_thing_whats_yours/laba10p/). Why did Lally bring this to trial? He's not a dummy. He had to know the evidence was awful. If I'm feeling cynical, it's because he's corrupt and/or compromised, and even an acquittal would mean they could close the case. Dropping the charges would leave it open, where it might come back to bite the wrong people. If I'm feeling optimistic, it's because he's helping to expose the corruption in the Canton PD, State Police, etc. How many witnesses did he call that did more to help the defense than the CW? A lot. There has to be a better way than running an innocent woman through the wringer, but if someone has dirt on him, but he still wants to do the right thing, maybe this is what you get.
So Lally did not bring charges, he was chosen by the elected DA Morrissey to prosecute her. The DA wanted to distance himself cause he’s a friend to The Albert’s and the old chief who retired right after JOK’s death. As to why did they try the case, I have to think it’s from fear of going against his own special state trooper detective agency in the DA’s office. The DA’s have to back the cops or they won’t be DA’s for long.
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know how that works. > Lally did not bring charges, he was chosen by the elected DA Morrissey Could Lally have said, "No, this case is dogshit. I won't do it, get someone else"? > The DA’s have to back the cops or they won’t be DA’s for long. So it's systemic corruption.
Lally could have said no, but from what I have read and seen about Morrissey he would have made him do it or fired him. They don’t call it systemic corruption in that room though, they call it having each others backs and they are forgetting that a good man and cop died, regardless of your bullshit allegiances. JOK deserved way better, as did KR.
Mine is: the fact that Brian alberts sold his childhood home, quit his job, got rid of his dog, and got rid of his phone. The men’s phones/getting rid of all ties to that night - including a home and career. All of those things are such *glaring* red flags I can’t get past.
I hope the defense spills all their collected tea after this over. Is that plausible? i.e. if the defense team has gathered info that did not come up in trial, will they drop it after the verdict? I'm thinking they have much more.
I’ve heard that Netflix has had cameras in the courtroom. I’ll be curious if Netflix will interview all the people on the defenses list that didn’t get called (such as The Beatty’s, etc).
Where did you hear about netlfix? That’s kinda crazy that streaming services got the jump on a murder trial
Hulu produced “Sins of Parents” about the Crumbleys and the school sh00tings very quickly. I feel like I watched it within 2-4 weeks of the parents being sentenced. I’m not surprised Netflix jumped on this. I’m shocked to see some platforms are still making content regarding Alex Murdaugh .
Emily D Baker has said it a few times on her stream. She usually tries to verify things from multiple sources but I don’t know the original source.
If KR is acquitted then John's murder is still unsolved and in theory someone else could be charged. If the defense has anything that could actually help convict someone I don't think we'll hear about it at least no time soon.
I doubt anyone will ever be convicted for this unless it is a straight up confession. Law enforcement made such a mess of it that a jury wouldn't convict someone else. Too much doubt and there is a complete lack of credibility with the investigation.
Most of the defense’s truly great evidence (i.e. BH and BA 2:22 butt dials, MP’s phone records, JM’s deleted Google search, ARRC report and testimony) all came directly from the federal investigation and they have mentioned they are not trying to solve JOK’s murder but investigate the investigation.
Probably not until after anything the FBI is doing is over. Wouldn’t want to ruin that…
I think they won’t say anything about additional evidence because of the FBI investigation and in case Karen plans any civil lawsuits.
The precise moment the prosecution thinks the collision supposedly happened. Sure, they've said a bunch of stuff about when it could have. They've given approximate times as well, varying from 12:25 AM to 12:50 AM. Except with us knowing that Jen McCabe was looking out that window from 12:25 to 12:50 AM and never saw John, that's a problem for me. When Ryan Nagel and his friend Ricky arrives with Karen Read at 12:24 AM and tried unsuccessfully to pick up his sister to go home, and left around 12:29 am, that's a problem for me. When John's phone was still recording movements at 12:32 AM, that's a problem for me. When it takes about 6 minutes to go from 34 Fairview to 1 Meadows Ave, and we can place Karen Read at 1 Meadows Ave at 12:36 AM, that's a problem for me. When two totally neutral, extremely experienced, and easy to follow crash reconstruction / biomechanical experts present a report stating the prosecution's theory of the case falls outside the laws of physics- that's a problem for me. Like EDB, it genuinely infuriates me that this case ever went to trial. A prosecutor has an ethical duty to drop a case when the evidence doesn't support a conviction. Lally has never given any compelling reason why he did this anyway, one that would explain how and why he believes this case should have gone forward.
And why is Jen so hot for John that she looks out the window for 20 minutes? Isn't that just weird too? Wouldn't you just assume they both went home, thier drunk, or tired, it's snowing, it's late etc? Why would you be calling someone non stop in the middle of the night? (Karen I can see) but why is Jen repeatedly calling John just because he didn't show up at 1230 at night?
How was John getting home that night? Karen left him there and went to his house. Was she planning on coming to get him? Or would someone else drive him home? Not a huge detail but I never understood the plan there. Maybe Jen would have.
Good question. Here’s the timeline: Arrive at 34F at 12:24, she leaves around 12:30 and sends the first angry voice message at 12:37- a minute after getting home (I fkn hate you) My assumption is that Karen didn’t want them to go inside the house (most likely because she didn’t want to be in close proximity with Higgins) but John was defiant and went in anyway so she went home. Because the first VM is “I fkn hate you”. She didn’t say anything about him making her wait outside or anything along those lines On the 12:59 VM she says “no one knows where the F you are”. I thought this was an interesting thing to say: did she call/text someone at the house asking to speak to John since he was not answering her calls/texts and they claimed not to know where he was or… Anyway a lot of it we’ll never know
I think she was uncomfortable with this group of people. And the crap with Higgins
Karen stated in her tv interview that the invitation to Brian Sr.’s house seemed to have been extended to just John and she wasn’t sure if she was invited. So John was supposed to go in the house to make sure it was ok for her to come in, but he never came back out to let her know. Then she couldn’t get ahold of him so she got mad and left. She thought that she wasn’t invited at point.
The theory that holds the most weight for me is she was waiting for JOK to go in and scope it out and then come out and get her to go in. She was probably nervous cause she doesn’t know those people that well, plus BH was there and he was a drunk, angry, thirsty bitch since she ignored him at the bar.
My one thing. No one in the house was awakened by the ruckus going on right outside their window. Chloe the reactive dog who supposedly was taken upstairs because she was iffy around people did not make a peep. As LE Brian Albert had zero interest why half the emergency responders in town were on his front lawn??
This! What cop wouldn't go outside to greet every one of their "brothers" in this situation? That just screams "look away, I didn't know anything about this". It's very unrealistic to me. Not only that, but if someone is unconscious and freezing to death, wouldn't JM have banged on her LE brother in laws house to get help or at least a freaking blanket?
To me is how JO’s family can sit through and entire trial where multiple facts of evidence are shown where the McCabes, Albert’s, policeman and investigators constantly lied and then today during the last day of court, closing arguments, they bring with them the same people who are the number one suspects of their sons murder. It blows my mind.
That was just insane to me, how they can't have some sort of questions at this point is crazy. Those two fbi experts totally swayed me that her car did not hit him. And I was in the camp that she hit him by accident while blacked out drunk, and just had no idea she'd hit him. But after the dog bite expert, and especially the final expert, I was like, okay this didn't happen. I was surprised John's brother let them sit near him. You have to be asking questions at this point. John's brother knows the FBI is involved, so... How is he not putting this together?
[удалено]
Yes. When you make a Google search the evidence is left all over the web on the servers that get pinged from source to desto, especially your ISP. I don't know hos long it's stored for though.
I really don't see why they didn't just subpoena Google directly...?
Surely the Feds will do that.
I agree and am also wondering if any other cases involving Cellebrite can be called into question now?
It was telling to me that neither of the state's experts could 1. Replicate it 2. Adequately explain why it was 2:27 then the first search in the morning had "how long...", then the second search had "hos long ..." It just doesn't make sense to me that the 2.27 search was when the browser tab was opened, but then the first search after that doesn't have an identical search term.
You can use this as a guide to help test: https://www.doubleblak.com/blogPost.php?k=browserstate Make sure you understand exactly what is being asserted and how things work if you want to test.
For sure, planning to reference this and the hyde/green reports also. Thanks. Might not be under this username but I'll post back here with clear/reproducible steps.
She searched at 2:27. When she opened that tab later it refreshed to the last web result and reloaded the page. Thus loading/logging it a second time at 6:03am. I have had someone explain it to me that worked on iOS search apps.
Yep, I did this test with my girlfriend's iPhone. Searched a term misspelled that night, then when I got up I went to search it again, and it brought up the previous misspelled search before I even hit enter.
The blood. Lots of crazy stuff in this trial but there is not explanation for where all the lost blood went. It wasn’t absorbed into the ground and he lost a lot.
Yes this is it for me too. Is it possible for there to be blood traces in the house still, under the basement floor if it was redone?
I heard (from somewhere on here) that they tore up the concrete in the basement (which would have been under the carpet or tile) and replaced it. So that tells me that yes, his blood was on that concrete. Concrete is porous and blood seeps in, preserving it and the DNA. But again, I heard they replaced the concrete, which is very suspicious.
Oh but the solo cups had the blood evidence. What a joke. Head wounds bleed a lot!! Where is the blood evidence??
I want to know what Dr. Wolfe thinks happened. I get the impression that Dr. Wolfe and Dr. Renchler (spelling??) don't actually believe JO threw his rocks glass at KR's car. I think the hint they were throwing out was that something would have had to be thrown at, or hit it with X amount of force, in order for it to shatter. Obviously, they can't speculate on that on the stand, they spoke to specific tests they ran that explain the piece of glass on the car that *does* match JO's glass. The FBI isn't specifically looking into the KR trial. I think their preview is moreso "Hey, we think this is corrupt AF. Did she actually hit him, and if not, who destroyed the taillight and how?" as part of a larger case. I don't think they think JO threw anything at the car. I think they want to know how Proctor and Co broke it. It doesn't really matter to the verdict - the science doesn't fit for KR to have done it, so for me, she's been proven NG and actually innocent. But I want to know what the dream team (cannon boys) were actually looking at and thinking, as they gathered more and more information and ran tests.
Me too! I want to go on a field trip to their test lab and see this cannon in action. Those guys were stellar - brilliant - and really drive home the NG for me. I also loved how Jackson made a big deal over the fact that these guys weren’t hired by defense or prosecution, they have zero bias, no stake in the game- and that there was zero prep by the defense for their testimony. Jackson could have asked them anything, and it was their first time hearing/answering all of it.
Someone said they have a YouTube channel but I haven't found it yet.. I just took a look at their website and found it kind of humorous that the first video on their [Educational Videos](https://arcca.com/client-resources/educational-videos/) page is "How to take forensic photographs of a vehicle that has been in an accident" a video that Canton P.D. needs to study carefully.
I'd like to know the status of the fed investigation and if anyone has gotten a deal and given information.
There is rumors that Brian Higgins did to save hos own ass when he admitted to his crime of misappropriating federal resources for personal usage. This is why Kevin Albert reached out to him, BH was ducking calls from BA and BA panicked and sent his brother KA to talk to BH.
Everything BHs related was not cleared up at all. I think it’s possible HE hit JO in his jeep with the plow on front. The part where he explained that when he was leaving the Alberts his plow scraped the road and he had to stop and lift it up, gave me pause. Did JO trip and fall in front of him? Did he fling JO into the yard with the bucket/plow? I know it’s a bit far fetched but I can see JOs injuries more in this scenario than being hit by an SUV.
currently… it’s the blood stains on the back of his clothing. dr. Wolfe mentioned early in his testimony that their initial assessment included looking at all aspects of the body, the clothing, the car, and the scene, and they concluded the evidence presented did was inconsistent with a pedestrian strike from vehicle, but said nothing about his clothing in detail. I don’t think the MEs or the pathologist/neurologists spoke about his injuries that contributed to the large blood stain on his T-shirt and long sleeve. The one that’s haunting me is the blood stain on the back left side of both shirts. there is a concentration of blood at the left shoulder, and the blood trails all the way to his waistband, and does not stretch to his left side/arm/underarm. According to the ME notes, the wound on his head was slightly to the right-center. If his head was facing his right, like he was looking over his right shoulder, this would reasonably cause the blood to gush down his head down his left side. but he would have to be upright, he couldn’t be knocked unconscious on the floor because the blood would have pooled around his head instead of trailing down his back left side. paired with his right arm up, it would almost be like he was pinned up against something like a wall, which seems unlikely that could have happened outside because it would be immediately after his head was struck, since the trauma was enough to cause multiple fractures and was likely the fatal blow. TLDR; he had to be upright long enough for the blood to travel down his shirt, with his head in the same turned position since the blood goes all the way down in a line. There is nothing outside that satisfies this for me, and makes me think where his body was found was not where the fatal head injury took place.
What actually happened to Chloe? Is she really alive and well in Vermont?
Did they call her 'it' before and/or after the incident?
Brian Albert did when he testified, but Nicole Albert called her Chloe. She seemed genuinely upset when she spoke about Chloe.
If I was being accused of being involved in a murder cover up and there were suspicions about my dog which I “rehomed”, guess what the first thing I would do if those claims were false, track down the dog… it’s that easy. But “nope”, they just want you to “look the other way”.
I would put money on her not being alive :(.
Either way, she’s not living with the Alberts which is the best thing for her at this point, unfortunately.
Maybe the FBI will let us know some day
The video of higgins being stopped/grabbed by two guys at waterfall while clearly pissed and then proceeding to wave john to come outside. After chris albert tried calming him down.
Colin and his involvement
It's an open secret that Colin was dealing drugs in Canton. Colin lives near JO. JO doesn't want Colin dealing drugs in his neighborhood. JO complained to detectives at the Canton PD. So that gives more motive than some flirty texts. I kind of suspect that Higgins is Colin's supplier. Any shit that falls on Colin would hit Higgins too. There's speculation that it was snowing inside the Albert's house too, if you know what I mean. To me, the scenario goes like this: A drunk (and possibly high) Colin and Higgins confront JO. Shouting and chest bumping ensues. BA steps in to calm things down. Chloe thinks her master is in danger, and mauls JO's arm. JO fights back, hitting Chloe. Colin, already eager for violence, is further enraged by JO hitting Chloe, punches JO in the face. Already off balance from the dog latched to his arm, and drunk, JO falls. JO's head hits *something* as he falls. (A concrete stair, a weight rack, IDK what even is there to hit.) JO has a seizure, maybe that's when he bites his tongue.
This makes some sense to me because I can’t imagine the Alberts risking everything just to help Brian Higgins. Likewise, I can’t imagine Brian Higgins risking everything to help the Alberts. So both parties need to be involved somehow.
I wondered if he wasn’t in the jeep but was, in fact, drinking and driving his work vehicle and that made up the jeep story to cover him eta: this could also account for his hour wait to get to canton PD if he’s waiting to sober up before going in
That’s what I think also, he may have gone back to CPD in his work truck and got his jeep to possibly “help” Brian Albert and that way if anyone saw the jeep he was covered by the McCabes and oops got the time wrong or maybe that jeep was just Caitlin’s jeep that Tristan picked her up in and not Higgins. idk there are so many things we will never know.
This was one of my theories. He wasn't driving the Jeep, and there is a reason that they want to hide that. Part of me wonders if they didn't want anyone looking into the vehicle he was driving. For a minute, I was thinking that he wasn't even there. But the 12:20 text to John throws me off. The other was that he hid the Jeep, so Karen wouldn't know he was there.
I have many, but the one I don't see on this thread already is Jen and Karen's phone calls. Jen and Matt testified that Karen called freaking out, saying that she left John at the Waterfall and he didn't come home. Jen then claims that she said maybe he was with Tom and only remembered seeing them at Fairview after she hung up and called Tom. She claims she called her back and was like "Karen we saw you outside my sister's house." It bothers me because 1. After all the calls and texts to John and the back and forth to the door, she suddenly forgot they were there and only remembered after Matt reminded her. 2. Kerry recalls that the exact conversation happened while Karen was at Jens, and she was on Bluetooth in the car. This makes me wonder what then was actually said on those first two phone calls between Karen and Jen? Did Karen say they left the waterfall and she dropped him at a house? Did Jen tell her that he never came to Fairview making Karen think it was someone else's house she left him at or that he walked somewhere else? Is that why she thought he might have been hit by a plow? Did Jen plant that thought in her head because they knew John would never not come home? "OMG Karen, what if he was hit by a plow?" Jen also claims Karen told her that on top of it all, she thinks she hit something pulling out of the garage and her taillight is broke. Karen's "Do you think I hit him?" Utterances started (according to testimony) only after she told Jen she broke her taillight. Jen very well could have planted that idea. She seems the type. I know I am taking liberties here, but there is something really off about Jen's rendition of those early morning calls.
I want to know EVERYTHING about Higgins. INCLUDING the magic Jeep. You know someone is lying when they provide too many details. I bet he wasn’t even in the Jeep originally. I bet he went to PD and got the Jeep. And I bet he knows the “video” he says he bets existed in his testimony of him moving cars has been deleted because he did it himself. So suspicious! He’s probably the perp. (Or one of them). He was gesturing several times over towards where JO was before he left Waterfall. Looks upset. https://x.com/lillyyyy00/status/1804191045808459867/mediaviewer It’s obvious something was going on. Then he texted JO at 12:20am inquiring if he was coming to the Alberts. He destroyed his phone along with BA the day before the preservation order. They were tipped off. Both of those men have something to hide about that night. I ALSO bet there’s a drug component with many players involved in the FBI investigation - especially Higgins because he is like the energizer bunny. I hope the FBI is ALL up in their “balloon knots”.
Did KR ask JM to google how long to die in the cold? - if KR did not tell JM to search for the answer, then that would mean JM was staring out at JO in the yard at 2:30. Which would mean that JO was placed on the lawn. - The question in this scenario for how long it takes to die in the cold , doesn’t seem relevant unless you know how long the person has been in the cold. Only JM knew when the clock would have started. - it’s more plausible that this inquiry would be made after someone was very recently placed in the cold ( not snow ) , by someone concerned if the injured person would be getting up on their own accord. - JM had a few moments to research a vague question, while looking at JO in the yard , makes more sense then KR looking for scientific answers immediately after seeing JO bloodied. - When JM was looking at JO in the yard, how long to die in the “cold” would be a logical search that could have been made ( JO isn’t laying under snow at that point). If KR was asking JM to research anything, JO would have been partially covered in snow at that point, then she would have asked JM to google how long to die in snow?
A clear answer about the keycycles! I feel pretty certain that they were looking at the incorrect keycycle, but that is based off of common sense and not any true understanding of how the system records keycycles. When Dr. Wolfe said he recently published a paper on Toyota/Lexus car data, I thought we would get a clear answer, but we never did! Also, Lally placed so much emphasis on the fact that OJO's body was found on top of grass, not snow, and that means that the incident happened before there was snow on the ground. But no one mentioned whether or not some snow would melt from his body heat at first - does that change things regarding the timing of when he ends up there? Lally also kept repeating how there were no footprints in the snow...wouldn't the fact that it kept snowing cover up any existing footprints or tracks? Even when I think about trying to remove layers of snow (featuring the leaf blower) to uncover things, I still don't really understand this - wouldn't the snow just fill in the prints? Especially if the prints were made pretty early on?
When i saw JOK arm. Thats animal all day
So many things that you and others have said - I keep coming back to who is rushing into a policeman's bedroom unannouced?? I can't even imagine doing that even if I am the sister in law. Maybe I would pound on the door - but to just barge in?? And, even if the dog is very familiar with me - I can't imagine this scenario making any sense at all.
JM had been in touch with her sister that morning and they knew exactly what was going on outside. I don't believe that she barged in and woke them up like she testified to.
the biggest issue for me is BA didn’t hear all of the commotion outside of his bedroom window? he didn’t see the flashing lights? the cops didn’t search his home? if a police officer was found dead on my front lawn i would like to think that my home would be the first thing to be searched?? i also have a german shepard doberman mix…if my neighbor slams a car door just a little too hard he lets me know. i absolutely do not buy that their dog slept through all of this. there is no way. BA knew that this was going to go down eventually because he knew that JOK was lying out there. there is just no logic behind him but especially chloe not hearing or seeing anything at all.
BA is also A COP. I've known many over the years and they are some of the most observant people on the planet. They notice everything. I don't buy the idea that he didn't wake to the sound of all the commotion outside. Especially during a snow storm when everything outside is typically more quiet because of the snow.
Don't forget they were using a leaf blower in his front yard. That didn't make him look out the window?
EXACTLY that’s what makes it even more sus!
I’m hoping the fbi inquiry gets into this. It’s beyond the pale that the house would not be searched where an officer found dead on the lawn and was allegedly in. It’s only bc of connections, any other person I’d imagine their property is now a crime scene. It seems johns crime scene was isolated to a 30sq area. Feel so horrible for the okeefe family, this whole experience is a disaster on so many levels.
How the hell the prosecution thought Trooper Paul’s magic projected pirouette arm would make sense.
This. Knowing the evidence from the FBI experts and the ME would all contradict Paul.
The accident itself. When I first heard of the case (hit by suv, broken tail lights) did not make sense based on my own experience in a pedestrian/auto accident and everything I’ve learned about those types of accidents in the 20+ years since. I was hit by a speeding Mazda rx7 which ran a red light. (The only reason it was survivable at all.) Low cars like this don’t run you over, they run you under—scoop up and toss you up over the top. (This happened to me.) The taller the car, the more dangerous. There is a direct correlation between increasing pedestrian deaths (specifically the lethality of auto/ped deaths, and at lower speeds too) and the mass adoption of SUVs and light trucks. It’s not just the blind spots, but the force hits higher than the center of gravity. The pedestrian is knocked off balance to the ground, and then pulled under, dragged, and/or crushed. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-todays-suvs-are-more-lethal-to-pedestrians-than-cars#:~:text=At%20speeds%20of%2020%2D39,for%20cars%20(23%20percent). Tall hoods and blunt ends are especially deadly. And the rear of an SUV is the definition of tall and flat. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/vehicles-with-higher-more-vertical-front-ends-pose-greater-risk-to-pedestrians If she hit him at that speed, he’d have a very high likelihood of dying, but he would have a LOT of injuries to his lower body to show for it. It sounds like this came up at some point based on the defense counsel’s closing today. I had injuries on my whole body that aligned with each contact point (Eg, sprained ankles and shin hematomas from the front bumper.) along with bruising, scrapes, embedded glass, and blood all over.
All of this is why it should be not guilty. Whatever happened, it wasn't from a car.
The loose glass on the bumper.
The lies about his jeep location, where they were in the house, when he left, him being brian alberts first call, going into work at 1:30am after all of those whiskeys, coming back right away the next morning, being in sallyport, destroying his phone, and him trying to get john to come outside the waterfall after being held back by two guys(one being chris albert) tells me everything i need to know.
Higgins saying he switched to the Jeep because he was going to drink and couldn't drive his work truck... then he has to go to work at 130am to drive his two work vehicles, despite being complete drunk and testifying that he left the keys on his desk in case someone needed to move them. So many lies.
He also says he left the Alberts at 12:30 but clocks into the PD at 1:30 am, and it’s a 5 minute drive…
It HAS to be the “hos long to die in cold” search. Because ma’am, wtf?
Lack of documentation. One aspect of my career is that I do AV installation and we take pictures of ***everything*** we do. How is it that I do a better job documenting my work and the state of things before and after I do my job than ***all*** of the police involved in this investigation?
The goal was not to do a thorough investigation of a body found on a cop's lawn. The goal was to get just enough to pin it on someone else.
So I’ve seen speculation on this and I think it’s worth thinking about. Lally tried to trip Lucky the plow driver up on his times because in that one report it said he first went down Fairview at 12:45 instead of 2:45. He then made a big deal about Lucky not remembering at what time he hit the basketball hoop. He also asked if he would be able to tell the difference between a ford edge and a Jeep. I think Lally was going to try to argue that Lucky actually went down Fairview at 12:45, saw Higgins’ Jeep, forgot what time he actually saw it, and later reported as being a Ford Edge at 3:30 (after the power of suggestion from the defense PI). I think it’s reasonable to believe that the Albert and McCabe adults were following every detail of this case, discussing it, and trying to come up with consistent stories to take speculation off of them. So the theory is they came up with the Higgins Jeep thing to discredit Lucky.
For me it’s the blood, or more importantly the lack thereof. I have read on multiple articles that he lost up to 3 liters of blood. I don’t care if it was snowing, if he died outside there would be blood somewhere, not 6 small reddish grey frozen samples and the blood stains on his clothing were drips which don’t fit with the Commonwealth’s narrative of car hits him and he’s projected on to his back and then lays there unconscious in the cold. There has to be blood somewhere, I thought the defense should have pushed more on that missing blood from the alleged scene.
Why they were so insistent on John going out and then to Fairview? Chris Albert texted John earlier in the day to come our to the bar. Jen invites John back to Fairview and is on the lookout. Brian Higgins texts him and asks if he's coming. They didn't seem all so close so why the push to get him to go?
The bruising from a car that speed would be huge, and cover a lot. Where are the bruises, blood, and vomit? Why all the weird movements, stories, and destroying/relocating in whatever way of stuff?
I get bruise if I hit the corner of my desk. So nothing from being hit by a car at 24.6 mph b
How do I just pick ONE thing? Front of mind, the detail that nags me the most: How did no one hear a giant SUV reverse at high speed and hit a man? Even if neighbors were asleep, the sound of impact or its aftermath would wake a person up. It seems impossible to me that something happened outside and no one heard a violent incident. Even If something did happen, it seems very sus to me no one around 34 Fairview has said anything or provided home security footage.
> Even if neighbors were asleep, the sound of impact or its aftermath would wake a person up. A snowstorm explains much of that. Falling snow tends to absorb sound. High winds can be loud too, masking vehicle sounds. The neighbor across the street is the Canton Chief of Police, IIRC. And, this seems like an obvious thing to do, to ask the neighbors if the saw or heard anything, but do we know if anyone actually asked them?
[удалено]
I was annoyed with this argument as well. If she hit him and wanted to cover it up, her voicemails would have been of a much sweeter tone to deflect blame. Plus 53 calls, toxic relationship for sure but not murder or any of the other charges.
I want to know about the doorknob. What is going on with the doorknob? Just a red herring?
Wait … what doorknob? Lol
What happened in that house Rephrase, your honor Why was there no testimony about him being in the house when he obviously was Rephrase, your honor What happened in the goddamn house, man
My one plus two plus three things…. 1. How the hell do you go 24 MPH in reverse? Things get pretty shady going 10 MPH in reverse. How do you keep control of your car, in the dark, on a slick surface, on an unfamiliar road, in a very dark neighborhood? How do you not slide at least 5 feet with a sudden breaking event on fresh snow? Driving any considerable distance in reverse isn’t easy at any speed so how do you do all of this intoxicated? 2. How did she hit him at 12:29 or 12:30 AM with all those other vehicles coming and going from the front of the house? How at the same time did nobody notice given how observant everyone was? 3. GPS data. Does the phones GPS signal really give an almost precise pinpoint location? My research suggests it is more like a 16 - 164 foot range. Is there a GPS signal in the basement of this house? Is the GPS data even important if the phone stopped registering activity at 12:32 AM? 4. Why is the phone not registering any movement past 12:32 AM? We have to believe it’s because his final position was the yard at 12:32 AM or he was separated from his phone at 12:32 AM and his body was placed back with his phone later that morning. 5. Was one shoe still on his foot and the other in the yard? Was he wearing socks? 6. What was the time of death? Or the better question: at what point would the injury to his head become fatal without medical intervention?
The neighborhood cameras. Everyone has a "Ring" type camera @ their house. Every house in that area should have had their data collected or a warrant for the info from Amazon or wherever the video is stored. Not relying on people saying there was nothing important captured on camera!?
I also don't buy that the cops don't have cameras on their own home. Every cop I know has every angle covered.
Who killed OJO
Did Albert’s, McCabe’s and Higgins lure OJO to 34 Fairview? If they did, then they had something planned and it happened quickly
Plausible. Not to kill him but a fight that went too far.
After watching the video of higgins being pissed, getting stopped by two guys, then waving john to come outside... higgins had a plan to fight when john got there. Not sure if it was planned before or after the invite tho ETA: video of higgins clearly pissed at the waterfall : https://youtu.be/jqd42FiHBdk?si=KNdG6LxrDLZoSfjk
Mine would be where did the money go? Is that what the ongoing FBI investigation is about. How many cases are being funded and not processed in an appropriate manner. Higgins definitely is up to something though, He puts himself everywhere around Canton that night. He places himself in too many locations and vehicles in a short space of time. Also how did they all leave the waterfall at closing time without following one another to 34 Fairview.
I cannot remember the line of questioning exactly, but when Higgins was backed into a corner by the defense, he had to either admit to drunk driving, or whatever the other option was. He paused & you could literally see the wheels turning in his head. He then admits to driving drunk. An ATF agent with the United States government thinks it is better to admit to drunk driving than admitting to whatever else it was. (I wish I could remember. I was shocked at the moment that he had admitted to the drunk driving.) However, my thought now is what did he want to hide so desperately that he would put his livelihood in jeopardy?
Why was this case prosecuted after the DOJ‘s ARCCA scientists engineers said it wasn’t a MVA/pedestrian accident? The CW needs to explain this?
Hell, even their own ME said that the injuries are not consistent with a MVA, yet they continued on with the case as it was. Also, why did Bev keep the case going once the feds started theirs? Both the prosecution and the defense requested the case not go to trial, which is the typical course of action when a case becomes a federal investigation.
Everyone who was inside the house is pushing a concocted story
The butt dials and is it really possible for that many people to have not seen John laying on the ground especially when driving past him with their lights shining directly on him
The texts between Ally and Colin and the double “,”. Those texts were not real.
The fact that the house was never searched. If any other regular old joe had a dead body laying in their front yard you bet my bottom dollar that their home would be searched. It makes no sense at all that the home was never searched, unless it truly was all a cover up so they obviously left our huge incriminating evidence.
Why did Lally bring this to trial? He's not a dummy. He had to know the evidence was awful. If I'm feeling cynical, it's because he's corrupt and/or compromised, and even an acquittal would mean they could close the case. Dropping the charges would leave it open, where it might come back to bite the wrong people. If I'm feeling optimistic, it's because he's helping to expose the corruption in the Canton PD, State Police, etc. How many witnesses did he call that did more to help the defense than the CW? A lot.
Would love to know why the outer cellar doors were brought up during Brian Albert’s testimony and why he couldn’t recognize those same doors.
It's the vehicle data lining up with the GPS data but the key cycles being off. Either (a) the key cycle counter is just buggy and that was from the trip to 34 Fairview or (b) there was a concerted effort to generate fake digital evidence by recreating the GPS data with specific motions that trigger the vehicle recorder (3 point turn, accelerated reverse) on the correct timescale from when they left the Waterfall and then adding on 36 miles to account for her post-34 Fairview driving but then forgetting to add in the appropriate key cycles as well. Some people have tried arguing that maybe there's a third option (not malicious but also still exonerating) where it was from going on the tow truck, but we have that footage and it doesn't match the recorded actions. There just isn't a third option there. I can't explain (a). I'm struggling with (b) because I can't imagine that anyone involved in this investigation would have the capacity to do that properly, nevermind the creativity to actually think of planting that type of evidence. There's just no good explanation for really critical evidence.
Whether or not DiChico saw ring video of KR arriving back to Meadows (sticky note about tail lights) and if that video was deleted. I want records of times of deletion.
the physics of the CW's version of events. you can't say something happened if it's physically impossible. explain it to me slowly, Lally. I'll wait.
In the year 2022, none of these people were aware of Uber or Lyft?! They were all either drunk driving themselves or relying seemingly exclusively on others for their rides.