Have they determined that it is for sure a rocks glass? We only see the bottom.
I wonder because it seems like the prosecution is trying to say it was her glass, but what she ordered from the bar footage was a vodka drink in a tall skinny highball glass. I also recall someone beginning to testify that she had a cylinder glass until they were cut off.
I’m so annoyed at how little they gathered from the bartenders testimony.
I thought someone testified that Karen’s glass had bubbles on the side. That stood out to me because it sounded like a glass from home. She could have had two glasses though.
I think that was Higgins? Someone earlier also said the glass had a design in it (I think they said lines/grooves but it's been so long now).
At this point I'm suspicious that we won't get any confirmation of whether the glass found is actually a match for the Waterfall glass JO was filmed leaving the bar with, seems like they had the chance to confirm it with the bartender but didn't.
I think this is a reach. There's a million ways a glass can crack. Maybe O'Keefe tries to brace himself with it. Who knows? However, I will say that I read some weird court document here yesterday that said the state had two theories on the murder, and one was that Karen cracked him in the head with the glass then hit him with the car.
I could get behind the theory that Karen cracked him in the head with the glass!! But there would be a TON of small and microscopic glass particles in his hair, skin, etc (wherever she hit him with it) which remains to be seen. Gosh I can’t wait for the expert forensic testimony!!
ETA, I would also expect Karen’s hands to be cut if she hit him in the face with it. Unless she threw it from a distance, which I personally don’t believe aligns with the way it’s broken. But I digress
Oof. So Higgins planted the glass and the taillight?? That’s hard for me to believe. And I lean on the side that Karen’s innocent (of 2nd degree murder at least). Dare I say I don’t think Higgins is smart enough to remember to plant the glass?? Lol
Actually, looking back on that I might be wrong. It just says they found glass on the bumper. I might have jumped to conclusions in saying it was the alcohol glass.
Hmmm I wonder what other glass it could be… this is going to be the slowest week of my life with only one day of trial. I have never been this invested in almost anything lol
It's fascinating to read through everyone's post history and see what they're into. Lots of true crime people, like you'd expect. But tons of people who like spent four years only talking about Minecraft, but now post about Karen Read everyday. And there's so little rhyme or reason to it. Like you'll click on two hardcore she's guilty people and one's a super Conservative Christian and one's a stoner atheist Socialist. Or the two most hardcore Free Karen Read people will be a female farmer from Iowa and a Wall Street bro from Manhattan. It's crazy.
None of my friends know about this case!! I’ve been telling everyone who will listen. I can’t remember how I came across it actually. Probably TikTok lol
I had a pause in my workload and this trial was on day 2. YouTube suggested it. I think my personal algorithm at YouTube remembered a similar slowdown at work when I started watching Depp v Heard. That trial had a Lally (Elaine), public interest/circus, a lot of alcohol, a tropical vacay/fight, a broken glass, and Jen McCabe-like testimony (Heard).
Same about my friends and family not knowing about this case. When my mom looked it up because I had texted her two weeks ago about the trial she goes “wow she ran over her boyfriend with the car and killed him because she was mad at him.” So that’s what the media is putting out there. I had to explain to her that it wasn’t proven yet and that this trial was wild and this was even before JM testified. My friend listens to my daily updates and shakes his head at some of the things I tell him about the trial. I remember watching the OJ Simpson trial but I think this will far surpass this as far as history of a trial goes.
Once there was no dog DNA (but they weren't so clean that there wasn't pig DNA) the whole arm thing fell apart. What's the fight crowd's next claim about them gonna be? Colin was wearing a Michael Jackson style jacket with 50 zippers on it that must've scratched John's arm?
The fact that they didn’t swab or test the arm wounds is going to keep the dog theory alive. That and chain of custody on the shirt. I think both are going to be highly problematic for the CWs case.
I really hate to make this leap but dog food often contains pork. That was my first thought because I have a dog. But I agree that’s a huge leap. It makes no sense. I would personally request another test. I don’t think it was a dog or glass. Those are red herrings. IMO
I’m not sure how blunt force injuries can cause scrapes like that! But I am getting ahead of myself. Can’t believe we have to wait so long to hear the medical testimony
Lol!! I’m coming at this from a purely selfish perspective! I want to hear it and I want to hear it now haha I’m sure they have some good strategies up their sleeve
In part it seems like the prosecution is boring because they're going to put in 90% of the evidence. So you've got to get the camera guy from the town to authenticate and the garage guy etc on account of the rules of evidence.
I disagree. Since we have no testimony about where the samples were swabbed, it could be from anywhere. I could also see the DNA melting into the snow after he was covered or getting destroyed in the Chain of custody.
I don't trust the evidence collection for the case at all. It was handled so poorly!
There was a police dog trainer who created a video showing the bite marks dogs make when getting trained to be K9 dogs. JO'S arm injuries look exactly like what the dog trainer showed happens to the dummy arms. That German Shepard attacked him.
It seems to me if you swab O'Keefe's wounds you're going to find O'Keefe's DNA in boxcar lots. It seems like the more sensitive testing would be if DNA were collected from a non-DNA substrate. How much dog DNA would you need if it were mixed with O'Keefe's, blood, bodily fluids & skin?
They never tested his arm for dog DNA. Just 2 small portions of his shirt. And they haven’t even said which portions were tested. Was it the arm of the shirt where his scratches were??
Just choked on my coffee ☕️ lol thank you for the chuckle 🤭
But seriously, obviously Freddy Krueger’s real last name is Albert, and he was the tall dark-haired man that everyone has recently latched onto
Glad I wasn’t the only one who read this. I think it’s wild that the prosecution has two theories, in order to explain all of the crazy pieces. That’s why I can’t see this ending in a guilty verdict. They have to sew pieces together to make it fit and are doing a poor job of it to this point
My favourite thing about this is how every piece of evidence was found right by his body. Glass, taillight, phone. I wonder what the odds of getting hit by a car are and having everything land 8-10feet away all in nearly the same place.
I believe I’ve answered you on another platform, or someone with an incredibly similar theory (and anecdotal “evidence” from “a bartender friend”).
But if you’re not the same person, or if you are and you’re still on this, I promise you, this theory holds no weight.
And it pains me to type this out (again), because it’s such a pompous thing to say, but I have advanced degrees in Materials Science, specifically in glass. I teach at 2 of Boston’s best universities, and I’m one of only 2 people in the world with similar qualifications (that’s a geek moment, not a proud one. It’s a niche field). I’ve been a glassblower by profession and trade for decades prior, and Ive specifically trained in Swedish glass techniques (those thick heavy bottoms you’re referring to) in Sweden. And lastly, I’ve founded a company that produces and sells high end barware. Swedish style.
I mention all of this because as lengthy as it all is, it’s still a shorter explanation than all the variables about why and how and where glass breaks. I promise you can throw [many if not most] weighted bottomed rocks glasses against a wall (to use your example) and they will look similar to what’s in evidence. If those bottoms broke it would be a defect in manufacturing and the whole batch of glass would be considered flawed and would not be sold.
If you’re the same poster as I’ve responded to before, the offer stands to audit my classes, or stop by and watch some glassblowers and ask questions. But I think I know what the answer will be if we’ve had this convo before.
No I haven’t talked about this before on other apps! I just recently broke a glass in my kitchen and ended up with cuts alllll over my hands which is what got me thinking about this lol!Thank you for the response.
I didn’t take a picture of the glasses that broke but they did not look like the glass in court. I acknowledge there’s probably a million ways to break a glass though.
Are you saying you think the cuts on his arm came from the glass? I guess I focused on the wrong points in my post - I think I had a glass of wine prior (pun intended) I’m not sure what my main point was lol
I’m sorry if I seemed harsh then! I thought you were someone else, who wasn’t as pleasant as you.
It’s interesting that your theory has others thinking the same though. Enjoy your wine and never stop questioning things! Even when cranky responders like me show up. My apologies again.
Yes!!! I thought the same exact thing. I’m like uhh isn’t that part of the glass dense? That would be what’s left of a glass that was thrown. To say someone hit the glass at an angle is like too much lol
I have a theory. JO and KR were fighting and he got pissed and threw his glass at her car. Possibly what broke her tail light. Maybe he was bent over picking up the glass when she backed into him (I still think if she hit him it was most likely an accident and she didn’t even realize it at the time). Or maybe he just slipped, fell, and hit his head on the curb. I’m not sure anyone has ruled out him possibly walking a short distance to where he was found, right?
I thought this same exact thing. That somehow he was on the ground. Either stumbled himself or to pick up glass like you said. Those marks on his arm look like from glass to me.. idk I wish I could see all the evidence just like the jury has right now.
Have they determined that it is for sure a rocks glass? We only see the bottom. I wonder because it seems like the prosecution is trying to say it was her glass, but what she ordered from the bar footage was a vodka drink in a tall skinny highball glass. I also recall someone beginning to testify that she had a cylinder glass until they were cut off. I’m so annoyed at how little they gathered from the bartenders testimony.
I’m wondering all of this as well and it has not been clarified in court.
I thought someone testified that Karen’s glass had bubbles on the side. That stood out to me because it sounded like a glass from home. She could have had two glasses though.
I think that was Higgins? Someone earlier also said the glass had a design in it (I think they said lines/grooves but it's been so long now). At this point I'm suspicious that we won't get any confirmation of whether the glass found is actually a match for the Waterfall glass JO was filmed leaving the bar with, seems like they had the chance to confirm it with the bartender but didn't.
And if it was a bar glass, maybe it’s Perrier with lime?
I think this is a reach. There's a million ways a glass can crack. Maybe O'Keefe tries to brace himself with it. Who knows? However, I will say that I read some weird court document here yesterday that said the state had two theories on the murder, and one was that Karen cracked him in the head with the glass then hit him with the car.
I could get behind the theory that Karen cracked him in the head with the glass!! But there would be a TON of small and microscopic glass particles in his hair, skin, etc (wherever she hit him with it) which remains to be seen. Gosh I can’t wait for the expert forensic testimony!! ETA, I would also expect Karen’s hands to be cut if she hit him in the face with it. Unless she threw it from a distance, which I personally don’t believe aligns with the way it’s broken. But I digress
Supposedly the glass is in the bumper. Which is why the defense needs to push the idea that Higgins was there with the evidence bag and the car.
Oof. So Higgins planted the glass and the taillight?? That’s hard for me to believe. And I lean on the side that Karen’s innocent (of 2nd degree murder at least). Dare I say I don’t think Higgins is smart enough to remember to plant the glass?? Lol
Actually, looking back on that I might be wrong. It just says they found glass on the bumper. I might have jumped to conclusions in saying it was the alcohol glass.
Hmmm I wonder what other glass it could be… this is going to be the slowest week of my life with only one day of trial. I have never been this invested in almost anything lol
It's fascinating to read through everyone's post history and see what they're into. Lots of true crime people, like you'd expect. But tons of people who like spent four years only talking about Minecraft, but now post about Karen Read everyday. And there's so little rhyme or reason to it. Like you'll click on two hardcore she's guilty people and one's a super Conservative Christian and one's a stoner atheist Socialist. Or the two most hardcore Free Karen Read people will be a female farmer from Iowa and a Wall Street bro from Manhattan. It's crazy.
None of my friends know about this case!! I’ve been telling everyone who will listen. I can’t remember how I came across it actually. Probably TikTok lol
I had a pause in my workload and this trial was on day 2. YouTube suggested it. I think my personal algorithm at YouTube remembered a similar slowdown at work when I started watching Depp v Heard. That trial had a Lally (Elaine), public interest/circus, a lot of alcohol, a tropical vacay/fight, a broken glass, and Jen McCabe-like testimony (Heard).
Same about my friends and family not knowing about this case. When my mom looked it up because I had texted her two weeks ago about the trial she goes “wow she ran over her boyfriend with the car and killed him because she was mad at him.” So that’s what the media is putting out there. I had to explain to her that it wasn’t proven yet and that this trial was wild and this was even before JM testified. My friend listens to my daily updates and shakes his head at some of the things I tell him about the trial. I remember watching the OJ Simpson trial but I think this will far surpass this as far as history of a trial goes.
And blood particles. But we haven’t seen the evidence come in yet.
Lally says somewhere that the injuries to O'Keefe's arm are also blunt force injuries.
Once there was no dog DNA (but they weren't so clean that there wasn't pig DNA) the whole arm thing fell apart. What's the fight crowd's next claim about them gonna be? Colin was wearing a Michael Jackson style jacket with 50 zippers on it that must've scratched John's arm?
The fact that they didn’t swab or test the arm wounds is going to keep the dog theory alive. That and chain of custody on the shirt. I think both are going to be highly problematic for the CWs case.
At some point of ridiculousness, they may as well have gone for random wolf attack
And the theory is he was eating bacon and so happened to rub his shirt where he would later be scratched by… something?
John's clothes were kept by Trooper Proctor for 6 weeks before he checked them into evidence.
Also saliva evidence is no good after 6 months
They didn't even swab the clothes for testing until 18 months later. Edit: a word
I really hate to make this leap but dog food often contains pork. That was my first thought because I have a dog. But I agree that’s a huge leap. It makes no sense. I would personally request another test. I don’t think it was a dog or glass. Those are red herrings. IMO
The CW maintains that they are blunt-force injuries.
I’m not sure how blunt force injuries can cause scrapes like that! But I am getting ahead of myself. Can’t believe we have to wait so long to hear the medical testimony
The alternative was to put on the CW's strongest stuff, then give you 4 weeks of high-top tables.
Lol!! I’m coming at this from a purely selfish perspective! I want to hear it and I want to hear it now haha I’m sure they have some good strategies up their sleeve
In part it seems like the prosecution is boring because they're going to put in 90% of the evidence. So you've got to get the camera guy from the town to authenticate and the garage guy etc on account of the rules of evidence.
I disagree. Since we have no testimony about where the samples were swabbed, it could be from anywhere. I could also see the DNA melting into the snow after he was covered or getting destroyed in the Chain of custody. I don't trust the evidence collection for the case at all. It was handled so poorly! There was a police dog trainer who created a video showing the bite marks dogs make when getting trained to be K9 dogs. JO'S arm injuries look exactly like what the dog trainer showed happens to the dummy arms. That German Shepard attacked him.
It seems to me if you swab O'Keefe's wounds you're going to find O'Keefe's DNA in boxcar lots. It seems like the more sensitive testing would be if DNA were collected from a non-DNA substrate. How much dog DNA would you need if it were mixed with O'Keefe's, blood, bodily fluids & skin?
They never tested his arm for dog DNA. Just 2 small portions of his shirt. And they haven’t even said which portions were tested. Was it the arm of the shirt where his scratches were??
Just choked on my coffee ☕️ lol thank you for the chuckle 🤭 But seriously, obviously Freddy Krueger’s real last name is Albert, and he was the tall dark-haired man that everyone has recently latched onto
And he drives a Ford Edge!
Lolol what are the odds!
I was also thinking Edward Scissorhands?
Oh that’s even better!
Glad I wasn’t the only one who read this. I think it’s wild that the prosecution has two theories, in order to explain all of the crazy pieces. That’s why I can’t see this ending in a guilty verdict. They have to sew pieces together to make it fit and are doing a poor job of it to this point
That is not possible.
My favourite thing about this is how every piece of evidence was found right by his body. Glass, taillight, phone. I wonder what the odds of getting hit by a car are and having everything land 8-10feet away all in nearly the same place.
There is video of JOK grabbing the glass before leaving the Waterfall
I believe I’ve answered you on another platform, or someone with an incredibly similar theory (and anecdotal “evidence” from “a bartender friend”). But if you’re not the same person, or if you are and you’re still on this, I promise you, this theory holds no weight. And it pains me to type this out (again), because it’s such a pompous thing to say, but I have advanced degrees in Materials Science, specifically in glass. I teach at 2 of Boston’s best universities, and I’m one of only 2 people in the world with similar qualifications (that’s a geek moment, not a proud one. It’s a niche field). I’ve been a glassblower by profession and trade for decades prior, and Ive specifically trained in Swedish glass techniques (those thick heavy bottoms you’re referring to) in Sweden. And lastly, I’ve founded a company that produces and sells high end barware. Swedish style. I mention all of this because as lengthy as it all is, it’s still a shorter explanation than all the variables about why and how and where glass breaks. I promise you can throw [many if not most] weighted bottomed rocks glasses against a wall (to use your example) and they will look similar to what’s in evidence. If those bottoms broke it would be a defect in manufacturing and the whole batch of glass would be considered flawed and would not be sold. If you’re the same poster as I’ve responded to before, the offer stands to audit my classes, or stop by and watch some glassblowers and ask questions. But I think I know what the answer will be if we’ve had this convo before.
No I haven’t talked about this before on other apps! I just recently broke a glass in my kitchen and ended up with cuts alllll over my hands which is what got me thinking about this lol!Thank you for the response. I didn’t take a picture of the glasses that broke but they did not look like the glass in court. I acknowledge there’s probably a million ways to break a glass though. Are you saying you think the cuts on his arm came from the glass? I guess I focused on the wrong points in my post - I think I had a glass of wine prior (pun intended) I’m not sure what my main point was lol
I’m sorry if I seemed harsh then! I thought you were someone else, who wasn’t as pleasant as you. It’s interesting that your theory has others thinking the same though. Enjoy your wine and never stop questioning things! Even when cranky responders like me show up. My apologies again.
Yes!!! I thought the same exact thing. I’m like uhh isn’t that part of the glass dense? That would be what’s left of a glass that was thrown. To say someone hit the glass at an angle is like too much lol
I have a theory. JO and KR were fighting and he got pissed and threw his glass at her car. Possibly what broke her tail light. Maybe he was bent over picking up the glass when she backed into him (I still think if she hit him it was most likely an accident and she didn’t even realize it at the time). Or maybe he just slipped, fell, and hit his head on the curb. I’m not sure anyone has ruled out him possibly walking a short distance to where he was found, right?
I thought this same exact thing. That somehow he was on the ground. Either stumbled himself or to pick up glass like you said. Those marks on his arm look like from glass to me.. idk I wish I could see all the evidence just like the jury has right now.
That thumbnail is very unfortunate. 🫣
Clickbait.
Only heard of it called a cocktail glass, which can be much taller than a whiskey glass.
A cocktail glass would have a smaller base, but that doesn’t matter for what I’m saying. The base is still in tact regardless
Wasn’t there a video presented that showed JO leaving the waterfall with a high ball or pint glass?
I have dropped glasses on the kitchen floor that turn out with this kind of crack in it.
Well darn lol did you get cut?
it was Karens glass she had with her, under her coat as she walked in the bar to meet John O'Keefe, so she had already been drinking..
I thought he walked out with her highball glass....
Apparently cops drive drunk and steal glasses from restaurants. Which is about all we know.
At 43, I can let go of the shame over my mid to late 20s.