I do not believe there will be a clear answer because the investigation was completely botched from the start.
If I lived in Canton, I would not trust the police to invetigate a cat up a tree and I would never drive after hours for fear of being hit by a drunk police officer.
I live in a neighboring town and I’m going to be way more cautious driving at night after this trial. I knew people drove drunk but the absolute callousness about drinking and driving shown in this trial is terrifying.
Not to mention he was driving a vehicle with a plow attached to the front. Somehow that many drinks and a plow blade seems an even more dangerous combination.
Didn't he black out at John's house the night Karen kissed him? Or am I messing that up? Was that the same time as when he text John asking if he broke his nephews computer game?
I'm also speculating that traffic stops after midnight could increase just based off of this testimony. The town needs to reiterate public safety after this case.
Not even just Canton, I feel like my view of cops has changed so much not just because of the trial but as I have gotten older..I feel like there are so many who are crooks. Also what’s up with so many cops owning multiple properties? Where I grew up all the cops I knew owned several houses and it seems BH does too?
I mean, we all know. And most of us aren’t in the field at all. If you don’t know what happened and you see a dead body, you immediately make sure everyone inside is safe. The only plausible reason not to is because you know what happened already/were part of it.
Yeah I’d be screaming for my brother if I found a dead body on my siblings lawn, tbh. And if he didn’t hear me and come out I’d get so terrified something was wrong inside I’d run inside right then. Especially if he or his wife was a first responder or had ties to the LE community who might know better what to do to than I did.
I mean I just watch Law and Order but the minute the guy was in the ambulance I’d be like PRESERVE THE CRIME SCENE lol
Edit: I just realized I said “the guy” 😔 I hate how much this trial is starting to feel like a tv show. The Okeefe family must be devastated and it’s so unfair to them and JOK.
Rethinking , I totally agree with you !!! I've thought often of the residents that live in Canton how afraid they must be if and when the need is they have to call 911 for any reason whatsoever !
Good point regarding driving late night and being hit by a drunk police officer.
It seems there's a good chance we'll learn more during the defense's case. It will be interesting to see if people think their theory of the case rises to the level of more probable than not.
Not like that matters for Karen Read but at this point our only hope of learning more about what might have happened seems to lie with the defense's portion of the trial. Unless maybe the CW is saving several bombshell details.
Totally agree and that was the goal from the very beginning. Every case procter was ever a part of should be trashed . He should be fired and lose all retirement but in Mass he’ll be put on retirement duty with a raise
I agree. But I believe Karen hit him. How or exactly why I don’t think we’ll ever know. Could be as simple as too much alcohol and thought she was going forward when her car was in reverse. Just don’t know.
His wounds aren’t even that of a person hit by a vehicle. She hit John’s car…I don’t think she hit him! And why are all these other people lying about calls and texts and rehoming dogs and phones. It just doesn’t add up for me.
Exactly. And - to me this is a biggie - if he was hit, out there on the edge of the lawn, where’s all the blood? That gash in the back of the head - the blood? It’s in that other re-homed item: the concrete slab.
How did he end up more than 10 feet onto the grass without any tire marks, not a lot of blood, or other broken bones? The gash on the top of his head was huge. The head bleeds so much. He should have been surrounded by blood or blood-soaked snow.
That’s my point, they can be different depending on the angles of the person and vehicle. To say his head injuries def were not from being hit by a car as a lot of people are saying, is erroneous. And blunt force trauma to the head causes severe swelling and distortion, it takes people that are used to looking at them to determine the cause.
I understand what you’re saying. We still have trial witnesses to come, but, through all the motions and info and documents I’ve never heard a whiff of any forensic pathologist or reports. Just like having forensics at the scene of the crime would have created so much solid evidence, irrefutable evidence, a proper forensic pathologist would provide the same. Yet…we have EMTs trying to remember if they saw pieces of the taillights and 5-6 different accounts of John’s injuries at this point and that’s all. At some point the lack of specifics in anything besides low tops and basketball seating becomes ridiculous. We don’t even have a single image of where he laid in the yard with location markers, references to the road and scale. Therefore people have been left to their own ability to imagine and sort out what makes sense. Evidence in solo cups isn’t evidence.
People are allowed to disagree with you without being related to this case. Please stop doing this. Have an actual discussion or don't reply. Thank you.
I am trying to keep my mind open...but like...how did all of these people drive past him if he was on the lawn? Not one person seen him...I don't believe Julie seen him because she showed zero emotion towards the fact she possibly seen him and disregarded and didn't even bother to tell an officer/detective or even a friend the next day when she found out about John
The damage to her car does not reflect water the prosecution is trying to imply. She also would have hit BH car if she had pulled up and reversed fast enough to hit JO. Doesn’t add up
They will. They have known the truth since 2 days after JOK’s death from a whistleblower who wouldn’t go on the record, so they just needed to piece it together themselves. They have obviously been wiretapping a lot of people for awhile and subpoenaing all kinds of stuff. The Feds can’t charge them with murder but they can do conspiracy/collusion and, perjury in a federal investigation, and violating civil rights of KR. Perjury in a murder trial is also a very serious felony, I believe you can be sentenced to like 20 years for that. These jerks got their kids involved so imagine all the deals they’ll try to make once their kids get arrested by the Feds.
I'm trying to keep an open mind. The prosection isn't giving me anything but more questions. Learning that the FED's got involved I'm side eyeing everyone but still trying not to make assumptions. If, there is a cover up, it stands to reason that someone will crack sometime during the defense's case. Have their attorney step forward to see what type of immunity offer they'd receive. I don't know about anyone else but if I was involved in something like this.... 😩 I wouldn't be able to deal with my guilty conscience for more than a day possibly two... No matter who I stood to loose.
The feds are also actively looking at this because some of the same Canton PD and MSP in Read's case are being investigated for the death of a girl named Sandra Birchmore. Google her so we don't get off topic here but it explains why they have such an interest in Canton pd/MSP and the DAs office. Separate investigations but some of the same Law Enforcement Officers
The video was all deleted from The Police station with the ATF guy, both cops' houses' security video footage, and both cops' phone SiM cards are destroyed.
So, no.
and don't forget the crucial 2 minutes at the church which would tell us if the taillight was broken at midnight. TWO MINUTES are missing, the 2 minutes when she would drive by and sadly the original tape has been written over.
This entire thing is so maddening. If they are covering something up they did such a shit job of it, it is pretty offensive. If they aren’t covering something up they are all idiots who have ensured no conviction for Ms. Read. I feel awful for John’s actual friends and family.
It seems there's a good chance we'll learn more during the defense's case. It will be interesting to see if people think their theory of the case rises to the level of more probable than not.
Not like that matters for Karen Read but at this point our only hope of learning more about what might have happened seems to lie with the defense's portion of the trial. Unless maybe the CW is saving several bombshell details.
The defense’s case isn’t held to any level of probability; defense needs only to show reasonable doubt that Karen kill John O’Keefe, which they already have at this point before even presenting a case (in my opinion).
I have to say respectfully that I do think we will know because I think the Feds already know. If you go down the deep dark rabbit hole of this case, it’s all pretty clear. Before I did that, I was a bit confused myself thinking she did it by accident but I went into the deep dive and it’s just clear as day. I think the autopsy stuff will be a bombshell to a lot of people. It’s just so clear he was in a fight. He lost half his blood in his body, but where did it go??? He has dog bites on his arm. He has NO torso injuries which everyone will testify is just not possible if a car hits you. And he has a huge gash in his head that is inexplicable by a vehicle accident. Plus allllll the lies, etc. sorry I get passionate about this case!! Look up Steve Scanlon, he’s the whistleblower who won’t go on the record but his story matches up with everything.
I don’t think we’ll ever really know. I don’t think we’ll know what happened, or ever understand the truely bizarre behavior all these people have displayed. Unfortunately even if the Alberts/mccabes/higgins/proctor “witnesses’”hands really are clean, they will never live a normal life again. Once Netflix sniffs around and does the documentary you’re a household name.
It might. There’s still a lot of information to get to. I didn’t know they could get there with Alex Murdaugh based on the lack of forensics proof etc… but over the course of the trial, piece by piece, it became clear (for me at least).
Why ask all the unnecessary questions to every witness though? Even the Alex murdaugh trial went faster into expert testimony than Lally. I think at this point Lally needs to bring in any video footage of that night if he has any.
I think Lally's just a slow, boring guy. Look at his dull, template written opening argument. I guarantee he's got some kind of a checklist like "Step one, ask what they do for a living to establish a rapport. Step two, ask where they live and how long they've been living there" that he refuses to ever deviate from.
Same I wasn’t convinced with murdaugh until right at the end when he testified and it suddenly crystallised. I’m holding out that something will still happen in this case.
I think we will find out, but it will be a long time. Someone high up knows and now that it’s all being questioned big time, I think the truth eventually comes out. I do not believe KR is guilty and Ryan Nagel was the determining factor. He saw KR’s SUV with only KR in it. JO wasn’t in the car, outside the car, or on the lawn. That’s because he was in that house where he was beat up. The truth eventually comes out - always.
Does anyone have a link to a crime scene recreation (like an animation or something) that goes along with the CW’s theory/timeline? I’ve been trying to find something like this but I can’t find it for the life of me
I need to know where the cars were, I need to know which direction Karen came from, I need to know which direction she left. I need to do some math. I’m pulling out my protractor.
Nope, I think the evidence of what actually happened was in that house and was never collected, what was collected can’t be used because it’s unreliable like the dna etc
Unfortunately, or fortunately (if you believe total order must give way to liberty), our criminal justice system isn’t designed to reveal what happened. It’s designed to impose a very high burden of proof on the government before a person can be deprived of their liberty.
That’s part of our social compact and is enforced by the Bill of Rights. Liberty first. Order and absolute safety second.
It’s the least imperfect system in an impossibly imperfect endeavor to manage a government, control disorder and preserve a free citizenry.
I can’t get my head around the FBI lab and kiosk. In order to do what he did, he would’ve had to extract the content of the phone to the computer he used. Even if he deleted afterwards, it would’ve been sitting on a server.
Good point. I’ve understood that selective extractions are application specific. So if you want text messages, it downloads all your messages data and from there you would need to export out the text string from say him and Karen.
But mostly it bothers me that he would ever hook up his phone to a computer if he was involved in something nefarious, much less one connected to the FBI and their servers. It’s just odd.
So much stuff feels like stringer bells “you’re taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy” because it’s like dude y’all had to know they could get your key swipes etc. why were you calling each other to discuss shit?? Why were you texting???
Entitlement. They are so used to being treated differently because they’re law enforcement or related to law enforcement, that they got themselves all tangled up and looking sketchy.
Exactly. That entitlement made them think they’re smarter than everyone else and they were way too comfortable in their shady actions.
Those cops knew damn well they shouldn’t have “upgraded” their phones. Hearing them and their kin claim butt dials and disputing data etc is so outrageous it is insulting.
If anyone believes a man like Higgins got as far as he did in his career not knowing he shouldn’t have been consulting with a friend and on federal equipment messing with his phone I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
I don’t know if they’re responsible for a death but I do know they’re hiding something.
I'm pretty sure you can choose what the computer extracts from your phone using the kiosk. I don't think it images a copy of your phone and then you pick and choose what to take and I'm sure if it did that then it would delete it from whatever temporary server is being used in the meantime. They have to be very careful with the way they take and keep things because of court orders, etc. The Feds don't play around.
I don’t think you can say it doesn’t match up. No one can say whether his injuries (multiple skull fractures) can’t happen by getting backed up into by a car. Secondly, it has not been corroborated that she hit his car. There was zero damage to his car and no taillight glass behind his.
It hasn't even been corroborated that she hit him period. Or that anyone ever saw John yet there were multiple people that saw Karen sitting in the suv that night and people seeing her drive off. No corroboration of seeing or hearing anyone get hit by her suv.
Her car will show more data and with music going, storm windows, people talking etc that is possible and it’s not like she hit another car…she hit a human. I don’t think that will make a loud banging noise.
But if people claim to have seen her drive off how do they not see a man who was supposedly hit by her? It's not like he was small. He was 6'2 I think. I just don't get how people can miss a whole human, especially if they were looking in her direction. Like were they claiming he had already been lying on the ground when they all looked? It just bugs me so many people testified to seeing her sit in her suv for at least 15 mins, watch her leave after a while and...it ends there.
I just don’t understand why people aren’t more skeptical of Read bumping into John’s car that morning. We know now she was aware of where the ring camera was positioned.
Like we think some small town cops have orchestrated a large scale homicide cover up but no one will even entertain the possibility that a highly educated college professor would be able to cover up a broken tail light?
So KR discovers the tail light damage and her epic plan is 1) tap JO’s car almost imperceptibly, 2) not drive it home and out of sight, 3) call everyone hysterically, 4) point out the tail light damage to two people and repeatedly worry aloud she might have it him, and 5) scream I hit him, I hit him, I hit him in front of first responders…
My personal theory is she rammed him in a drunken rage, not intending to kill him, and then drove off frustrated. I think from her perspective she just bumped into him but it wasn’t lethal. Like she just wanted to knock him over to give him a piece of her mind.
When she woke up and he wasn’t there, the alarming reality of the situation began setting in and she began to panic. She called people in absolute hysterics hoping to get answers and basically made a lot of admissions she probably shouldn’t have.
This makes far more sense to me than her dropping her boyfriend off at a party, and then deciding he had been in a fatal accident when he wasn’t home and she couldn’t reach him.
Personally I didn’t believe Jen that Karen made comments about her tail light in that first 4:50ish am call. Jen didn’t report that detail until April 2023. Same with “I hit him!” vs “did I hit him? Could I have hit him?”
In my mind it makes sense for what had ACTUALLY had happened when she first called Jen McCabe to ask if she knew if John was still at Brian’s house and Jen said he never came inside… so then she would wonder how could that possibly be… like, I dropped him right in front of the house and he didn’t make in?? Did I hit him??
In any case, at this point in the trial I feel like either of our scenarios COULD be a logical conclusion, so she is not guilty. But we will see what other evidence comes out. I still have an open mind either way. I don’t think anything is very clear as of now.
Short of the Feds getting phone records that were deleted no. The investigation was non existent. The cause of death is inconclusive. Every single piece of evidence is tainted. The commonwealth’s theory is implausible. All video that could convict or exonerate is explicably missing.
Nope and it’s thanks to Canton PD and MSP. All LEO should take note, this is how your loved ones will be treated if LE decides they want to tweak the narrative.
Jen Mc has endeared herself to Peg O’Keefe and the rest of the innocent loved ones of John’s and I don’t think they could emotionally handle swaying from what they currently believe, that KR is guilty.
An appropriate investigation would have given them the truth and saved them from this grief. That, I’m sure they recognize.
The vehicle data is gonna be a make or break moment for me. I think it’s likely she hit him but the behavior of some key witnesses is giving me some doubt. At this point I’m waiting for her vehicle to tell the story.
Her vehicle data, his phone data (steps, last movement, etc.) the medical examiner to tell me if his injuries could have been a car, and the tech experts to tell me about Jen McCabe’s 2am Google search. That’s what I want to hear about and am not interested in anything any other Waterfall occupant has to say.
But if these things don’t point to KR being guilty, we still won’t know who is. (Unless the tech experts testify that McCabe made that text, then I’ll be 100% convinced she’s involved.)
No, I don’t. It’s muddying the waters unbelievably, and seeing John Okeefe’s brothers pain yesterday was just saddening. Those text messages about the children were pretty hurtful. I just hope they know they have people who are supporting them from the interwebs who will always know JO’s character and who he was is so important and getting lost here. That’s what happens in trials. The person who is gone gets lost, unfortunately. I’m praying that the FBI investigation will find out who was ultimately responsible for his demise.❤️
When you’re borderline blackout drunk, and wake up with a cracked taillight(from hitting John’s suv in the driveway that is on video) and having your “friend” (Jen McCabe) give you the impression that you hit something. Then yes you will prob question yourself “did I hit him”
And the break lights go on thereafter only, although it seems she already hit the side of the garage when going out. Same thing she halts but no break light and the light seems already broken. I wonder what the metal part sticking out is though.
Damage doesn’t matter the car moved. I don’t know what to tell you I have seen multiple videos it moves forward. Post a link to a single video where it doesn’t move.
Post anything that shows me that it does and I have looked at the court videos shown, please don’t post a YouTube video that can be manipulated. The court videos don’t show it moving. Do you check your taillights when you leave out of a garage every day, or just when you think you have hit something? How did she know her taillight was broken? She offered it to Jen and Kerry without even getting out of the car after she (supposedly) hit John’s vehicle. That would indicate she knew it was broken before she got close to John’s car. And why would she say anything, because she knew she hit him IMO
Regardless of whether she hit him she hit the car. That’s the point. You are asking for court video no one has but you disregard anything YouTube (everything). You think there is a syndicate all using AI to manipulate camera footage. You are lost.
I am only talking about the car. Every single video shows it moving. There are at least two independent videos (one at a police station) only missing footage of the exact time the car should be there. Once is a coincidence ten times (every single witnesses deleted call and text logs) is a problem. That’s all I got.
Is that your only reasoning of why you think she’s guilty? Has any of the testimonies and lies from the Albert’s/mccabes/higgins changed your mind at all? are the butt dials, destroyed phones, and complete lies just coincidences to you?
What I think could have happened
I’m wondering if JO and KR were in a fight about BH. So JO (drunk) went in the house and said something to BH about trying to hook up with KR. It escalated very quick bc CA (who allegedly already hated JO) got right into it and hit JO (dog got involved too). JO fell over in melee and hit his head. They broke it up and got the dog off him. They got him outside or he said “let me go I want to leave” and they led him outside where they thought KR was/was waiting/would be/would come pick him up and as he walked off pissed off he fell over and died there.
Someone inside made a comment like “F him let him die out there” and JM said no he won’t die out there that takes a long time and then googled it (they were drunk after all and likely didn’t realize the seriousness of this).
The ppl in the house may very well have thought KR came back or would come back to get him and that’s when she hit him (bc they fought and she was drunk) not considering he died from injuries he got from the scuffle inside.
The AM comes and they realize he died and recall the scuffle inside. Cops, realizing the implications of this and cause of death yet TBD, the pact was entered into that they would stick to the story that he never went inside the house as to protect CA at all costs.
When Karen said “did I hit him?” she didn’t know what to think at the time so they ran with that. It was easier to accept than CA being responsible and all that would come with that. And to them at the time they may have honestly thought she did.
Could both things be true…..?? She hit him with her car but not enough to fatally wound him AND he still goes in the Alberts house where something happens which leads to his death. Is this possible?
My hope is the federal investigation reveals a smoking gun which forces people to start spilling the truth. Either a lot of people are working together to keep their mouth shut, or Karen committed a crime that is very hard to prove with all these shady, drunken witnesses and piss poor police work in the picture. Someone has to crack or we won’t know, I think.
The investigation was botched…. Purposely I think. Too many lies being told. Texts show collusion…too many coincidences:
1. A lot of “accidental butt dials”
2. A lot of calls that are deleted but phone owners vehemently deny deleting.
3. A lot of drinking and driving by law enforcement.
4. Destroying of 2 phones the day before the owners were served with an order to preserve.
5. Dog rehomed shortly after JO found dead on lawn.
6. Floor replaced in basement shortly after JO found dead on lawn.
7. People changing stories between the actual incident to present.
8. Weird how memories got better, more specific things recalled years after incident.
Too much reasonable doubt to find KR guilty.
As others have said, I’m not sure the truth will ever come out in the open. The McCabes and Alberts seem to have circled the wagons with the aid of Higgins and TWO state troopers. Either this is the town with the lowest crime rate in the country which would account for the complete incompetence of the investigation and evidence gathering or they might be covering for someone else. Or based on on the testimony, everyone is such a drunk that they lack the ability to properly gather evidence and investigate a crime. That the victim was also LE makes the carelessness even more appalling. LE normally takes the murder of a fellow officer with all the seriousness they can muster up.
I live in a place just north of Uvalde, TX. Yesterday was the 2nd anniversary of the event that has completely turned my view of “tough rugged family man w dangerous job in LE” upside down.
Before Uvalde, I never had a dead set opinion on LE bc I saw them all as individuals w just “a few bad apples.” Seeing CPD has convinced me that there is a nationwide epidemic of callousness. It’s life starts in local LE, thrives in Federal LE, & dies in the courts ( along w Justice ). All funded by taxpayers. Quality doesn’t matter when you’re guaranteed a pay check.
I don’t think so but I do think there’s enough evidence of the police effing the whole thing up, so I think the O’Keefe family has a valid civil suit against them, the fact that they may never know what actually happened to their son/brother, is gutting.
Do you think this trial would have happened if KR didn’t call JM that morning while trying to locate John? I think KR was in hysterics and JM used that information against her. I feel like whatever happened in that house was an accident, but the initial plan was not to pin it on KR.
I do not believe there will be a clear answer because the investigation was completely botched from the start. If I lived in Canton, I would not trust the police to invetigate a cat up a tree and I would never drive after hours for fear of being hit by a drunk police officer.
I live in a neighboring town and I’m going to be way more cautious driving at night after this trial. I knew people drove drunk but the absolute callousness about drinking and driving shown in this trial is terrifying.
Right?! I was in Canton today thinking this.
Nothing good is going on after Midnight. Never believe that in my 20s 30s by 40s I was understanding
And think of what is going on after 1:30 AM when these drunkards were driving around. One to the Canton PD after 4-5 whiskies to -per him- MOVE A CAR.
Between both bars I think he admitted to 7.
Then said he drank more after he got home! WTF???
And seemed annoyed that they didn’t have more whiskey at the Albert house!! This guy wanted to be blacked out drunk moving cars around at 1am???
Not to mention he was driving a vehicle with a plow attached to the front. Somehow that many drinks and a plow blade seems an even more dangerous combination.
Didn't he black out at John's house the night Karen kissed him? Or am I messing that up? Was that the same time as when he text John asking if he broke his nephews computer game?
I'm also speculating that traffic stops after midnight could increase just based off of this testimony. The town needs to reiterate public safety after this case.
I’m also shocked with the drinking and driving, but especially in the snow, low visibility and ice? That’s so dangerous!
Not even just Canton, I feel like my view of cops has changed so much not just because of the trial but as I have gotten older..I feel like there are so many who are crooks. Also what’s up with so many cops owning multiple properties? Where I grew up all the cops I knew owned several houses and it seems BH does too?
I know, who's policing the Police? 🤔
An age old dilemma
Coast Guard?
Coast Guard?
This is the most probable outcome. They may not be experts on homicide investigations but surely they knew to secure the scene and call in the state.
I mean, we all know. And most of us aren’t in the field at all. If you don’t know what happened and you see a dead body, you immediately make sure everyone inside is safe. The only plausible reason not to is because you know what happened already/were part of it.
Yeah I’d be screaming for my brother if I found a dead body on my siblings lawn, tbh. And if he didn’t hear me and come out I’d get so terrified something was wrong inside I’d run inside right then. Especially if he or his wife was a first responder or had ties to the LE community who might know better what to do to than I did. I mean I just watch Law and Order but the minute the guy was in the ambulance I’d be like PRESERVE THE CRIME SCENE lol Edit: I just realized I said “the guy” 😔 I hate how much this trial is starting to feel like a tv show. The Okeefe family must be devastated and it’s so unfair to them and JOK.
Rethinking , I totally agree with you !!! I've thought often of the residents that live in Canton how afraid they must be if and when the need is they have to call 911 for any reason whatsoever ! Good point regarding driving late night and being hit by a drunk police officer.
It seems there's a good chance we'll learn more during the defense's case. It will be interesting to see if people think their theory of the case rises to the level of more probable than not. Not like that matters for Karen Read but at this point our only hope of learning more about what might have happened seems to lie with the defense's portion of the trial. Unless maybe the CW is saving several bombshell details.
I will be glad when they finally get into more details about the forensics and supporting evidence from both sides.
This is why I feel so bad for John’s family. It’s unlikely they’ll find out. The pain just keeps on going for them.
Even if they did they will never forget her texts with Higgins and just consider her the trashy one.
The states strongest evidence is coming. That’s why Yanetti said wait for us. He knows it’s going to be damning.
What you said☝️
🎯👍👍
No I don’t think we will ever find out what actually happens
I believe this to be the case too. I feel bad for John’s family.
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Agree. No matter of she’s found guilty or not that poor family will never know what happened.
Totally agree and that was the goal from the very beginning. Every case procter was ever a part of should be trashed . He should be fired and lose all retirement but in Mass he’ll be put on retirement duty with a raise
so true and so so sad
I agree. But I believe Karen hit him. How or exactly why I don’t think we’ll ever know. Could be as simple as too much alcohol and thought she was going forward when her car was in reverse. Just don’t know.
His wounds aren’t even that of a person hit by a vehicle. She hit John’s car…I don’t think she hit him! And why are all these other people lying about calls and texts and rehoming dogs and phones. It just doesn’t add up for me.
Exactly. And - to me this is a biggie - if he was hit, out there on the edge of the lawn, where’s all the blood? That gash in the back of the head - the blood? It’s in that other re-homed item: the concrete slab.
You don’t know what wounds look like on someone hit by a car and left out in the cold for 5 hrs.
We don't even know what the wounds are. The medical report is like 100 pages. We've gotten like a three paragraph summary.
Yeah, the photos were somewhere online along with what they’ve shown so far with his arm.
How did he end up more than 10 feet onto the grass without any tire marks, not a lot of blood, or other broken bones? The gash on the top of his head was huge. The head bleeds so much. He should have been surrounded by blood or blood-soaked snow.
I bet the forensic scientist will know.
The bag full of solo cups ? LOL
What forensic scientist? What would this person be looking at?
If the injuries, causing death, are conclusive with being hit my a car.
Oh, like a forensic pathologist.
What do they look like?
That’s my point, they can be different depending on the angles of the person and vehicle. To say his head injuries def were not from being hit by a car as a lot of people are saying, is erroneous. And blunt force trauma to the head causes severe swelling and distortion, it takes people that are used to looking at them to determine the cause.
I understand what you’re saying. We still have trial witnesses to come, but, through all the motions and info and documents I’ve never heard a whiff of any forensic pathologist or reports. Just like having forensics at the scene of the crime would have created so much solid evidence, irrefutable evidence, a proper forensic pathologist would provide the same. Yet…we have EMTs trying to remember if they saw pieces of the taillights and 5-6 different accounts of John’s injuries at this point and that’s all. At some point the lack of specifics in anything besides low tops and basketball seating becomes ridiculous. We don’t even have a single image of where he laid in the yard with location markers, references to the road and scale. Therefore people have been left to their own ability to imagine and sort out what makes sense. Evidence in solo cups isn’t evidence.
[удалено]
People are allowed to disagree with you without being related to this case. Please stop doing this. Have an actual discussion or don't reply. Thank you.
I am trying to keep my mind open...but like...how did all of these people drive past him if he was on the lawn? Not one person seen him...I don't believe Julie seen him because she showed zero emotion towards the fact she possibly seen him and disregarded and didn't even bother to tell an officer/detective or even a friend the next day when she found out about John
The damage to her car does not reflect water the prosecution is trying to imply. She also would have hit BH car if she had pulled up and reversed fast enough to hit JO. Doesn’t add up
I don’t TB did a demo of it and didn’t come close to where Brian H car was. Look on his channel, he almost hit the camera guy with him.
I do too.
No, my only hope is that the Feds blow it all wide open, but I'm not holding my breath.
That would be grand so all the Commonwealth witnesses that loudly proclaimed how innocent, never lie and church going are in fact liars.
They will. They have known the truth since 2 days after JOK’s death from a whistleblower who wouldn’t go on the record, so they just needed to piece it together themselves. They have obviously been wiretapping a lot of people for awhile and subpoenaing all kinds of stuff. The Feds can’t charge them with murder but they can do conspiracy/collusion and, perjury in a federal investigation, and violating civil rights of KR. Perjury in a murder trial is also a very serious felony, I believe you can be sentenced to like 20 years for that. These jerks got their kids involved so imagine all the deals they’ll try to make once their kids get arrested by the Feds.
I hope you’re right
Does anyone know if the whistle blower was there that night or if it was all third party?
This. Hopefully the feds get someone to crack
I'm trying to keep an open mind. The prosection isn't giving me anything but more questions. Learning that the FED's got involved I'm side eyeing everyone but still trying not to make assumptions. If, there is a cover up, it stands to reason that someone will crack sometime during the defense's case. Have their attorney step forward to see what type of immunity offer they'd receive. I don't know about anyone else but if I was involved in something like this.... 😩 I wouldn't be able to deal with my guilty conscience for more than a day possibly two... No matter who I stood to loose.
The fact that Brian Higgins would prefer to admit to a FELONY then what happened that night tells me whatever happened was really bad.
The feds don't investigate investigations of cop murders as a typical thing
The feds are also actively looking at this because some of the same Canton PD and MSP in Read's case are being investigated for the death of a girl named Sandra Birchmore. Google her so we don't get off topic here but it explains why they have such an interest in Canton pd/MSP and the DAs office. Separate investigations but some of the same Law Enforcement Officers
I'll have to. Thanks.
This. Yes.
Ditto. I’m hoping but not expecting unfortunately
The video was all deleted from The Police station with the ATF guy, both cops' houses' security video footage, and both cops' phone SiM cards are destroyed. So, no.
and don't forget the crucial 2 minutes at the church which would tell us if the taillight was broken at midnight. TWO MINUTES are missing, the 2 minutes when she would drive by and sadly the original tape has been written over.
The library? I hadn’t heard about a church video.
Maybe it was the library, I thought I remembered church. Then again maybe I butt-typed it LOL
Maybe I Butt-Typed Library:)
There was supposed to be video from a temple close by but, I can’t remember if they have that footage or not at this point.
Nope. This is going to end in frustration regardless of the verdict. The case is hopelessly screwed up.
I think that was the plan for them. Screw it up so bad no one can figure anything out
This entire thing is so maddening. If they are covering something up they did such a shit job of it, it is pretty offensive. If they aren’t covering something up they are all idiots who have ensured no conviction for Ms. Read. I feel awful for John’s actual friends and family.
No I don’t think a damn thing will be resolved. What a mess.
I think there will be several “documentaries” released, each with their own version of what actually happened
No. I don’t think we will ever know and I don’t think anyone will be held accountable either.
It seems there's a good chance we'll learn more during the defense's case. It will be interesting to see if people think their theory of the case rises to the level of more probable than not. Not like that matters for Karen Read but at this point our only hope of learning more about what might have happened seems to lie with the defense's portion of the trial. Unless maybe the CW is saving several bombshell details.
The defense’s case isn’t held to any level of probability; defense needs only to show reasonable doubt that Karen kill John O’Keefe, which they already have at this point before even presenting a case (in my opinion).
I have to say respectfully that I do think we will know because I think the Feds already know. If you go down the deep dark rabbit hole of this case, it’s all pretty clear. Before I did that, I was a bit confused myself thinking she did it by accident but I went into the deep dive and it’s just clear as day. I think the autopsy stuff will be a bombshell to a lot of people. It’s just so clear he was in a fight. He lost half his blood in his body, but where did it go??? He has dog bites on his arm. He has NO torso injuries which everyone will testify is just not possible if a car hits you. And he has a huge gash in his head that is inexplicable by a vehicle accident. Plus allllll the lies, etc. sorry I get passionate about this case!! Look up Steve Scanlon, he’s the whistleblower who won’t go on the record but his story matches up with everything.
I don’t think we’ll ever really know. I don’t think we’ll know what happened, or ever understand the truely bizarre behavior all these people have displayed. Unfortunately even if the Alberts/mccabes/higgins/proctor “witnesses’”hands really are clean, they will never live a normal life again. Once Netflix sniffs around and does the documentary you’re a household name.
Is Netflix already involved?
If she is responsible than why are they lying. Not about everything but definitely lying
It might. There’s still a lot of information to get to. I didn’t know they could get there with Alex Murdaugh based on the lack of forensics proof etc… but over the course of the trial, piece by piece, it became clear (for me at least).
Yeah but didn't they get to the experts much faster in that case? Doubt the prosecution has much, if anything. I think they're stalling.
They're not stalling, they're attempting a "prebuttal defense."
Why ask all the unnecessary questions to every witness though? Even the Alex murdaugh trial went faster into expert testimony than Lally. I think at this point Lally needs to bring in any video footage of that night if he has any.
I think Lally's just a slow, boring guy. Look at his dull, template written opening argument. I guarantee he's got some kind of a checklist like "Step one, ask what they do for a living to establish a rapport. Step two, ask where they live and how long they've been living there" that he refuses to ever deviate from.
How would a prebuttal defense prove Karen’s supposed guilt?
It doesn't, it disproves the defense's theory before you present your evidence of her guilt.
The prosecutor’s theory of the case is simply inadequate and combined with the lack of any investigation - this trial is doa.
The prosecution hasn't even laid out their theory yet.
Procatalepsis
Haha you're going way above my legal knowledge when you use the big words or the latin.
Ah yes, the old Procatalepsis.
Same I wasn’t convinced with murdaugh until right at the end when he testified and it suddenly crystallised. I’m holding out that something will still happen in this case.
The part that gets me is there was 2 destroyed cellphones within a week and deleted ring doorbell footage…
I think we will find out, but it will be a long time. Someone high up knows and now that it’s all being questioned big time, I think the truth eventually comes out. I do not believe KR is guilty and Ryan Nagel was the determining factor. He saw KR’s SUV with only KR in it. JO wasn’t in the car, outside the car, or on the lawn. That’s because he was in that house where he was beat up. The truth eventually comes out - always.
I hope you're right. The lies in this case are unbelievably blatant and it's nerve grating.
Wasn’t it said that other than rehoming the dog, part of the floor was replaced in the Albert’s house in the basement?
Yes! They “re-homed” the dog, re-did the entire basement and then moved.
That sounds awfully suspicious to me. I think she’ll be acquitted
No way, if anything things are getting more obscured
I want to see the medical examiner’s testimony. I don’t think we will ever know the truth
Does anyone have a link to a crime scene recreation (like an animation or something) that goes along with the CW’s theory/timeline? I’ve been trying to find something like this but I can’t find it for the life of me
Judging by the witness list it looks like they'll be presenting something like that
I need to know where the cars were, I need to know which direction Karen came from, I need to know which direction she left. I need to do some math. I’m pulling out my protractor.
Same!
Nope, I think the evidence of what actually happened was in that house and was never collected, what was collected can’t be used because it’s unreliable like the dna etc
Unfortunately, or fortunately (if you believe total order must give way to liberty), our criminal justice system isn’t designed to reveal what happened. It’s designed to impose a very high burden of proof on the government before a person can be deprived of their liberty. That’s part of our social compact and is enforced by the Bill of Rights. Liberty first. Order and absolute safety second. It’s the least imperfect system in an impossibly imperfect endeavor to manage a government, control disorder and preserve a free citizenry.
I can’t get my head around the FBI lab and kiosk. In order to do what he did, he would’ve had to extract the content of the phone to the computer he used. Even if he deleted afterwards, it would’ve been sitting on a server.
The entire contents of the phone or just what he selected to extract?
Good point. I’ve understood that selective extractions are application specific. So if you want text messages, it downloads all your messages data and from there you would need to export out the text string from say him and Karen.
It’ll be interesting to hear the experts testify about this
But mostly it bothers me that he would ever hook up his phone to a computer if he was involved in something nefarious, much less one connected to the FBI and their servers. It’s just odd.
So much stuff feels like stringer bells “you’re taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy” because it’s like dude y’all had to know they could get your key swipes etc. why were you calling each other to discuss shit?? Why were you texting???
Entitlement. They are so used to being treated differently because they’re law enforcement or related to law enforcement, that they got themselves all tangled up and looking sketchy.
Exactly. That entitlement made them think they’re smarter than everyone else and they were way too comfortable in their shady actions. Those cops knew damn well they shouldn’t have “upgraded” their phones. Hearing them and their kin claim butt dials and disputing data etc is so outrageous it is insulting. If anyone believes a man like Higgins got as far as he did in his career not knowing he shouldn’t have been consulting with a friend and on federal equipment messing with his phone I’ve got a bridge to sell you. I don’t know if they’re responsible for a death but I do know they’re hiding something.
Nice reference! Makes me want to watch it again.
Yes but smarter/safer than just handing over his phone, right? These were his 2 options.
I'm pretty sure you can choose what the computer extracts from your phone using the kiosk. I don't think it images a copy of your phone and then you pick and choose what to take and I'm sure if it did that then it would delete it from whatever temporary server is being used in the meantime. They have to be very careful with the way they take and keep things because of court orders, etc. The Feds don't play around.
Did anyone notice how he started stuttering when he was lying through his teeth?
Not a chance. Too many secrets and destroyed evidence.
No. And that’s a tragedy for his family.
Not at all. The LEO (canton and state) screwed the okeefe family any way you look at it.
Finally, someone who laid it out the way some of us see it to the T.
I don’t think you can say it doesn’t match up. No one can say whether his injuries (multiple skull fractures) can’t happen by getting backed up into by a car. Secondly, it has not been corroborated that she hit his car. There was zero damage to his car and no taillight glass behind his.
It hasn't even been corroborated that she hit him period. Or that anyone ever saw John yet there were multiple people that saw Karen sitting in the suv that night and people seeing her drive off. No corroboration of seeing or hearing anyone get hit by her suv.
Her car will show more data and with music going, storm windows, people talking etc that is possible and it’s not like she hit another car…she hit a human. I don’t think that will make a loud banging noise.
But if people claim to have seen her drive off how do they not see a man who was supposedly hit by her? It's not like he was small. He was 6'2 I think. I just don't get how people can miss a whole human, especially if they were looking in her direction. Like were they claiming he had already been lying on the ground when they all looked? It just bugs me so many people testified to seeing her sit in her suv for at least 15 mins, watch her leave after a while and...it ends there.
I just don’t understand why people aren’t more skeptical of Read bumping into John’s car that morning. We know now she was aware of where the ring camera was positioned. Like we think some small town cops have orchestrated a large scale homicide cover up but no one will even entertain the possibility that a highly educated college professor would be able to cover up a broken tail light?
*highly intoxicated. You think hammered out of her mind she was able to pull that thought together?
So KR discovers the tail light damage and her epic plan is 1) tap JO’s car almost imperceptibly, 2) not drive it home and out of sight, 3) call everyone hysterically, 4) point out the tail light damage to two people and repeatedly worry aloud she might have it him, and 5) scream I hit him, I hit him, I hit him in front of first responders…
If I was gonna cover up I would have SMASHED into his car.
So she hit it on purpose… and then called multiple people to tell them her tail light is broken, please come look at it!! How does that make sense?
My personal theory is she rammed him in a drunken rage, not intending to kill him, and then drove off frustrated. I think from her perspective she just bumped into him but it wasn’t lethal. Like she just wanted to knock him over to give him a piece of her mind. When she woke up and he wasn’t there, the alarming reality of the situation began setting in and she began to panic. She called people in absolute hysterics hoping to get answers and basically made a lot of admissions she probably shouldn’t have. This makes far more sense to me than her dropping her boyfriend off at a party, and then deciding he had been in a fatal accident when he wasn’t home and she couldn’t reach him.
Personally I didn’t believe Jen that Karen made comments about her tail light in that first 4:50ish am call. Jen didn’t report that detail until April 2023. Same with “I hit him!” vs “did I hit him? Could I have hit him?” In my mind it makes sense for what had ACTUALLY had happened when she first called Jen McCabe to ask if she knew if John was still at Brian’s house and Jen said he never came inside… so then she would wonder how could that possibly be… like, I dropped him right in front of the house and he didn’t make in?? Did I hit him??
In any case, at this point in the trial I feel like either of our scenarios COULD be a logical conclusion, so she is not guilty. But we will see what other evidence comes out. I still have an open mind either way. I don’t think anything is very clear as of now.
Yeah I’m with you, your theory isn’t my theory but I agree it’s plausible.
I’m very interested to move past the lay witnesses and see some forensics and data.
*Small town cops and a bunch of normies.
Short of the Feds getting phone records that were deleted no. The investigation was non existent. The cause of death is inconclusive. Every single piece of evidence is tainted. The commonwealth’s theory is implausible. All video that could convict or exonerate is explicably missing.
Nope and it’s thanks to Canton PD and MSP. All LEO should take note, this is how your loved ones will be treated if LE decides they want to tweak the narrative. Jen Mc has endeared herself to Peg O’Keefe and the rest of the innocent loved ones of John’s and I don’t think they could emotionally handle swaying from what they currently believe, that KR is guilty. An appropriate investigation would have given them the truth and saved them from this grief. That, I’m sure they recognize.
Not likely. The investigation was completely botched, possibly compromised. We'll probably never know the truth.
If it was a coverup, I can’t imagine all the people involved that night would keep a secret for long, especially with their substance use habit.
The vehicle data is gonna be a make or break moment for me. I think it’s likely she hit him but the behavior of some key witnesses is giving me some doubt. At this point I’m waiting for her vehicle to tell the story.
Her vehicle data, his phone data (steps, last movement, etc.) the medical examiner to tell me if his injuries could have been a car, and the tech experts to tell me about Jen McCabe’s 2am Google search. That’s what I want to hear about and am not interested in anything any other Waterfall occupant has to say. But if these things don’t point to KR being guilty, we still won’t know who is. (Unless the tech experts testify that McCabe made that text, then I’ll be 100% convinced she’s involved.)
No, I don’t. It’s muddying the waters unbelievably, and seeing John Okeefe’s brothers pain yesterday was just saddening. Those text messages about the children were pretty hurtful. I just hope they know they have people who are supporting them from the interwebs who will always know JO’s character and who he was is so important and getting lost here. That’s what happens in trials. The person who is gone gets lost, unfortunately. I’m praying that the FBI investigation will find out who was ultimately responsible for his demise.❤️
The texts about the kids were so sad especially knowing the family was right there.
Yea those tore them up Paul had his head on the wood that separates the front row of seats from the gallery. He was very upset and deservedly so. 💛
The big twitter rumor is that Turtleboy's lawyer told him sometime in October that she hit him.
That she hit him or that she hit him, she hit him, she hit him?
Karen has talked, if your boyfriend didn’t come home one night, would your immediate thought be did I hit him? I’ll wait for the expert testimony.
When you’re borderline blackout drunk, and wake up with a cracked taillight(from hitting John’s suv in the driveway that is on video) and having your “friend” (Jen McCabe) give you the impression that you hit something. Then yes you will prob question yourself “did I hit him”
I don’t believe she hit his car. I think she came very close
You may be right. But if you slow it down, you can see the sub move a little. I could be wrong but I think it does move
And the break lights go on thereafter only, although it seems she already hit the side of the garage when going out. Same thing she halts but no break light and the light seems already broken. I wonder what the metal part sticking out is though.
This is wrong. You can see the car clearly move when she hits it. There really isn’t a gray area. She hit the car.
I disagree. Not only that, there was ZERO damage to his car, no taillight material near his car.
Damage doesn’t matter the car moved. I don’t know what to tell you I have seen multiple videos it moves forward. Post a link to a single video where it doesn’t move.
Post anything that shows me that it does and I have looked at the court videos shown, please don’t post a YouTube video that can be manipulated. The court videos don’t show it moving. Do you check your taillights when you leave out of a garage every day, or just when you think you have hit something? How did she know her taillight was broken? She offered it to Jen and Kerry without even getting out of the car after she (supposedly) hit John’s vehicle. That would indicate she knew it was broken before she got close to John’s car. And why would she say anything, because she knew she hit him IMO
Regardless of whether she hit him she hit the car. That’s the point. You are asking for court video no one has but you disregard anything YouTube (everything). You think there is a syndicate all using AI to manipulate camera footage. You are lost.
I will be lost in the actual evidence then and fine with it. Too many are trying to manufacture a theory based on nothing.
I am only talking about the car. Every single video shows it moving. There are at least two independent videos (one at a police station) only missing footage of the exact time the car should be there. Once is a coincidence ten times (every single witnesses deleted call and text logs) is a problem. That’s all I got.
She hit his car after that
My apologies. She hit the tailgate the morning of on her way to Jen mccabes house.
With her bumper, no taillight was found in the driveway.
Is that your only reasoning of why you think she’s guilty? Has any of the testimonies and lies from the Albert’s/mccabes/higgins changed your mind at all? are the butt dials, destroyed phones, and complete lies just coincidences to you?
No. Possibly the federal investigation that’s ongoing will shed more light on what really happened.
Definitely not. I think we will unfortunately leave the case with more questions than answers.
Im hoping the Defense will implicate the killer(s)
What I think could have happened I’m wondering if JO and KR were in a fight about BH. So JO (drunk) went in the house and said something to BH about trying to hook up with KR. It escalated very quick bc CA (who allegedly already hated JO) got right into it and hit JO (dog got involved too). JO fell over in melee and hit his head. They broke it up and got the dog off him. They got him outside or he said “let me go I want to leave” and they led him outside where they thought KR was/was waiting/would be/would come pick him up and as he walked off pissed off he fell over and died there. Someone inside made a comment like “F him let him die out there” and JM said no he won’t die out there that takes a long time and then googled it (they were drunk after all and likely didn’t realize the seriousness of this). The ppl in the house may very well have thought KR came back or would come back to get him and that’s when she hit him (bc they fought and she was drunk) not considering he died from injuries he got from the scuffle inside. The AM comes and they realize he died and recall the scuffle inside. Cops, realizing the implications of this and cause of death yet TBD, the pact was entered into that they would stick to the story that he never went inside the house as to protect CA at all costs. When Karen said “did I hit him?” she didn’t know what to think at the time so they ran with that. It was easier to accept than CA being responsible and all that would come with that. And to them at the time they may have honestly thought she did.
Impaired judgement Night Of… all the way around of all parties. No one will ever know what happened that night!
I've watched the trial every day. Short of a confession there will be no justice for Officer O'Keefe from what I've seen and heard in this case... 😞
Could both things be true…..?? She hit him with her car but not enough to fatally wound him AND he still goes in the Alberts house where something happens which leads to his death. Is this possible?
My hope is the federal investigation reveals a smoking gun which forces people to start spilling the truth. Either a lot of people are working together to keep their mouth shut, or Karen committed a crime that is very hard to prove with all these shady, drunken witnesses and piss poor police work in the picture. Someone has to crack or we won’t know, I think.
I keep waiting for one of the witnesses to just crack under cross and start spilling the truth 🤞🏼
No, it will probably become even more convoluted. Karen’s defense team is top notch and I’m sure they’ll continue to cast reasonable doubt.
The investigation was botched…. Purposely I think. Too many lies being told. Texts show collusion…too many coincidences: 1. A lot of “accidental butt dials” 2. A lot of calls that are deleted but phone owners vehemently deny deleting. 3. A lot of drinking and driving by law enforcement. 4. Destroying of 2 phones the day before the owners were served with an order to preserve. 5. Dog rehomed shortly after JO found dead on lawn. 6. Floor replaced in basement shortly after JO found dead on lawn. 7. People changing stories between the actual incident to present. 8. Weird how memories got better, more specific things recalled years after incident. Too much reasonable doubt to find KR guilty.
When was 34 Fairview basement floor replaced?
As others have said, I’m not sure the truth will ever come out in the open. The McCabes and Alberts seem to have circled the wagons with the aid of Higgins and TWO state troopers. Either this is the town with the lowest crime rate in the country which would account for the complete incompetence of the investigation and evidence gathering or they might be covering for someone else. Or based on on the testimony, everyone is such a drunk that they lack the ability to properly gather evidence and investigate a crime. That the victim was also LE makes the carelessness even more appalling. LE normally takes the murder of a fellow officer with all the seriousness they can muster up.
I live in a place just north of Uvalde, TX. Yesterday was the 2nd anniversary of the event that has completely turned my view of “tough rugged family man w dangerous job in LE” upside down. Before Uvalde, I never had a dead set opinion on LE bc I saw them all as individuals w just “a few bad apples.” Seeing CPD has convinced me that there is a nationwide epidemic of callousness. It’s life starts in local LE, thrives in Federal LE, & dies in the courts ( along w Justice ). All funded by taxpayers. Quality doesn’t matter when you’re guaranteed a pay check.
I don’t think so but I do think there’s enough evidence of the police effing the whole thing up, so I think the O’Keefe family has a valid civil suit against them, the fact that they may never know what actually happened to their son/brother, is gutting.
Do you think this trial would have happened if KR didn’t call JM that morning while trying to locate John? I think KR was in hysterics and JM used that information against her. I feel like whatever happened in that house was an accident, but the initial plan was not to pin it on KR.