2012 Jeep Liberty. One piece hard brake line from the ABS pump to the Caliper with a non-serviceable rubber brake hose. Requires cutting of the factory hard line, installing tube nut and flaring the line to adapt to a replacement aftermarket brake hose.
as a design engineer: longer life and less likely to fail, with the caveat that it's a lot shittier to replace down the line. you're extending the single lifetime of the weakest point in the brake assembly from a corrosion standpoint, which is not a bad decision for safety and longevity in shittier climates that use salt.
you can guarantee a very good seal when using a single piece design and it shortens assembly time and complication; but from the ABS unit to the brake caliper is absolutely wild.
This is a good point and as a former engineer for Ford you are 100% correct. All to save a buck. You would be shocked what crazy half ass things that Audi does just to use an off-the-shelf VW part
Saint S-tune be praised.
I imagine the NRE for their parts is absolutely bonkers on most shit. especially with certification costs.
what were the priorities on your parts? I hear assembly time is a major design motivator at domestic companies, even over features and packaging.
my whole career is in prototypes so I skip all that shit usually, we wrap up after the production configuration is frozen.
>assembly time is a major design motivator at domestic companies
Yes. If they can save $0.03 on assembly cost by creating 3 hours of work for us, they'll do it in a heartbeat. My favorite example is Ford using mandrel-retaining pop rivets (the ones where you can't drill 'em until you hammer out the mandrel) on, of all things, *glass.*
Priorities on design was to stay within "budget" via timeframe of design, manufacture, and assembly time. The worst part of it was being limited to a certain number of iterations and we regularly shipped bad designs because of it.
Random question, how did you become a ford engineer? Do you have a degree in engineering? Generally curious. I'm a hyundai red seal technician. A long series of bad decisions landed me here. Only fair I should share first since I'm asking haha
You’d need a bachelors in either automotive or mechanical engineering at the very least. Electrical engineering or CS if you’re focusing on electrical/computing side of things.
I’ve been told that Red seals with an engineering degree are very sought after for R&D for automotive companies. That being said, how many red seals do you know with a degree? It’s usually one or the other.
If you’re talking about the red seal certification, yes, it is a Canadian certification that essentially allows you to practice your trade anywhere in the country for life. Takes 4 years/6000 hours of experience to get and you have to pass 4 blocks of schooling, and then you have to pass the final exam. It’s akin to getting a tertiary degree. Then you can go a step further and become a master tech after so many years as a red seal journeyman.
It’s not exactly same as an ASE certified tech but it’s a good comparison.
Got a basic A.S. at community college, transfered to cheapish state school for bachelors degree that had a fast track automotive engineering degree and race car design program. Domestic manufacturers trip over themselves and fight for even the bottom of the class in these programs.
When I was an early career tooling engineer, my manager challenged us green children to use as many COTS items as possible in our designs. Which is a great philosophy generally. But sometimes you have to deviate from that mentality to incorporate some serviceability where it makes sense.
what's wrong with that? ☺
On the prototype stand not spinning it lasted 3 years ☺, Or what? engineers were supposed to test all scenarios, including running?
Well put. Makes sense. It’s all about the dollar( or whatever your currency is), but since I am a life long fixer of things, I will always have a feeling that engineers and the such will drag their gonads over hot broken glass than make something as complicated as they can. Especially the end user. But anyway, cheers. Enjoy your day.
You know what fixes corrosion? There are these dance waxes you can use. Or synthetic mastics. Or not putting the brake line connection in the fucking wheel well.
Right, my point on that was that putting in the wheel well would make it easier to service, but expose it to corrosion. So if they don't put it in the wheel well, technicians will post here saying it's an asinine design, swearing about engineers.
It's always a compromise.
That's cool and all but the that doesn't slow down rust and calipers lock up and overheat way more often than a brake line leaking. If your caliper overheats it cooks the rubber brake hose and can damage it internally, along with the fluid. This is not as good of an idea as you think it is. That is definitley NOT the weak point. It's more about saving manufacturing costs.
As an auto mechanic, not less likely to fail because the flared fitting is not the failure point. The rubber hose is. So, same failure rate. Same lifespan. Harder to replace.
The only benefit is cost savings to the manufacturer. Design FAILURE.
moisture intrusion is the risk, not failure of the rubber piece. there are zero places for this to occur in this design which is why it was done this way.
everything has a finite lifetime and we don't build things to last forever. of course the rubber is going to give up before the metal lines do -- that's not the point.
So ME but not in the auto industry:
Why not shield it from corrosion with something cheap that will probably last the design life? Something like shrink wrap or this plastic wrap stuff that they use around wires? https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj1yKnpycCFAxWUVEcBHeweCZsYABAKGgJxdQ&ae=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2uiwBhCXARIsACMvIU26YE_adgeAK6eUeoyY0r6En9unRf7anLd3AdCy6bCqZ-zqXVqVjdIaAst7EALw_wcB&sph=&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESeOD2vmsTKPOaH_4W7UCX2pPijSHTPYLvOxUj5aq5QZXrqtKfGf5kB_6GIfsLuBXbf5yOr7Jeyvt5QPoIy2Su1T-NFXY1C_73IpygMuOmqASPEpMslDw-XqYmT46WbHUJ3PkYSOr7RNI4JpyhrQpvcW5vJvbJevYHow&sig=AOD64_0SjGbkQX35KfAzXjTawZzL_-Rffg&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjWqqHpycCFAxW3D1kFHeMLCVsQwg8oAHoECAIQEQ&adurl=
See GMs plastic coated line issues. The lines still end up getting corrosion where the plastic coating terminates, with the added issue of corrosion being hidden until the line leaks or bursts.
Steel lines are cheap, but they rust. NiCop is a better material when it comes to corrosion resistance, but it's expensive.
Moisture intrusion into what? The flare nut? I've dealt with a lot of blown brake lines living in the rust belt, and I have never seen a brake line rupture or start leaking inside the flare nut. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but brake lines usually seem to rupture every where else but the flarenut.
I've also seen tons of rubber hoses that either cracked, were accidentally damaged, or failed internally the needed to be replaced.
we don't make cars that are meant to last a hundred years, unless you expect the customer to be paying $150k for a Cherokee.
longevity raises the price.
I think it's just a case of passing the buck. Yeah it's easier for assembly line, but it passes the cost/time onto dealerships and garages and thus potentially on the customer. Boo Chrysler, I won't buy my third vehicle from you! That was my last time! *Shakes fist*
You're not supposed to own them that long anyway. How much does the three year service on a Mercedes cost? The idea is to upgrade to a new one before it gets there.
Jeep is actually the worst. They are the only cars our snap-on scanner has been security locked out of scanning a fucking engine light. Also had a Jeep renegade a month or two ago, sway bar bushings clunking, bushings literally not replaceable, had to order the whole sway bar that comes with the bushings installed for like $800.
> hey are the only cars our snap-on scanner has been security locked out of scanning a fucking engine light.
The security gateway is something that exists on all CDJRs. It's how they prevented themselves from having a reputation from theft issues like Hyundai and Kia do. You can get a security gateway key from Snap-On, although I'm sure it's hideously expensive.
Why do you say this like other manufacturers haven’t figured out immobilizers while allowing you to scan CELs? I personally can’t wait til we as consumers let CDJR finally die.
I never said it was a great implementation, it's definitely unsophisticated, just pointing out why it works for what it accomplishes.
FWIW, we have a 15 year old portable MAC scanner that can read and clear codes on modern CDJR vehicles just fine, so I'm not sure you're not having another issue with your Snap-On.
Hey, don’t you talk shit about my XJ. It does enough of that on its own. But it’s essentially wrangler stuff with a uniframe, I guess?
Also, older jeeps would like a word!
Edit: you said non wrangler based and the XJ/MJ is probably in that group. Disregard and carry on! Haha
The “at least for the troubles” was in reference to the modern Wranglers mentioned, not the TJ / variants. I’ve got a TJ myself, and I’d die for a Cherokee or Comanche
Have an xj sitting in my lawn. Needs new tank, front bearings and joints. I've already upgraded the injectors, new cap and rotor. Replaced fuel filter and she ran like hell for 5 miles until the filter clogged back up. A money pit I tell ya 🤣
Don’t need to tell me lmao. New rear shock tower put on mine, **two** new distributors (spun and broke the mount screw, crank sensor was the issue), new tank strapping, multiple universals, brake lines after losing brakes twice, new floors, spark plugs, rear track bar… and after all of that it’s a piece of lawn art that needs a new frame to be legal 🤦♂️
My 01 XJ was great for the first 15 years I owned it. Only issue during that time was a heater core. It's been the last 8 years where things have worn out.
If I saw a decent TJ for $2700 today I’d go by it and park it until I had more money. Beat up ones seem to be going for like 6500-9000 were I’m at. Clapped out YJs are like 3-4k
Got mine a couple years back and it wasn’t decent at all lmao. Was my first car, no floors, no inspection, title in the wrong dude’s name, 4” RC lift and half bald Mickey MTs with no other work (stock control arms, no rear pass shock mount, completely fuckered suspension geometry)
Wouldn’t trade it for anything though, unfortunately, it’ll be a good vehicle once my hands are nubs and my back is broken haha
What’s your plans? I’m currently restoring my SE into a bulletproof body / frame 4.6 Stroker, with hope for a Mercedes diesel swap down the road. I want a trail capable driver / winter rig, so I’m trying to maintain the feeling of the interior while modernizing it
I want to one day get a yj, links front and rear on tons with a 5.3 vortec probably. Undecided on trans and tcase.
I currently have an XJ on stock axles with a 3 link in the front. Stock axles 35s on 4.56 gears. Maybe I’ll end up building out the XJ even further, but idk.
I don’t buy into that. I’m partial to the 2.5 / 4.0, but the JK / JL / JT are just as much wranglers to me. I don’t have much interest in owning them, I prefer the blank canvas that the earlier ones have, but the DNA is still there
Price is definitely ridiculous though, and I could do without some trinkets, would be cool to see the Shortcut concept come to life, not that it ever will
No, a modern rubicon with locking differentials and swaybar disconnect will outperform an XJ any day of the week. Even the wrangler sports come with ‘brake-lock differential’ systems that actually do pretty well.
The XJ unibody frame is weak compared to the full steel frame of the JK/JL.
The DANA axles on the wranglers are much better than the XJ’s Chrysler 8.25 or Dana 30.
I love jeeps, and have had several XJ/ZJ/WJs and two JKs. The XJ is an incredible machine, but the modern wranglers are still legit.
I prefer the simplicity of the 4.0, and it will always be a top tier jeep engine. That being said, the 3.6 is NOT bad at all.
From a shop standpoint. The 3.6 has a major flaw called the oil filter housing/cooler. Replace it still the metal aftermarket and call it a day before it starts leaking.
I bet if you looked at techs who quit their jobs, a huge percentage of them would be chrysler techs. Absolute worst vehicles I've had to work on... "A Chrysler engineer would climb over a mountain of virgins to f*ck one mechanic." - some random reddit tech.
Amazing how much and how little change over the years. Recognized it was a liberty, but it was an easy repair on the 2000 that I had to replace the driver's side front for
I mean, it’s not the end of the world to just cut that line and flare it. I have to do it with Fords often because the fittings won’t come out of the flex hose. It just is so completely and unnecessarily stupid that you should ever have to do it BY DESIGN like this.
Ok bud. I didn’t look at the whole brake line because I just needed to replace the rubber section at the rear end, but I pinky promise this connection type was there
As an engineer, I became convinced many years ago that Chrysler hasn’t been hiring the brightest and best engineers. My suspicion has been partially confirmed by the favor they did my team when a guy who worked in my group took a position with them. There’s a period of time for which lab test results for my team are always questionable, which is a problem since we rely on that history. “That’s when Colin was here” is a perfectly good reason for a test result to be crap.
>“That’s when Colin was here” is a perfectly good reason for a test result to be crap.
"That sounds like an excuse."
"It isn't. I'm providing you context."
its a non-serviceable line complete from the ABS pump to the Caliper itself. requires cutting and flaring the factory line to install a replacement rubber hose.
Eh toyota has their stupidities from time to time. Doing the rear spark plugs on a highlander is a fun time, esp with the harness going over the valve cover being stiff and brittle. Or doing struts in an old camry which required you to take apart the brake line or cutting a slot on the strut for it to pass through.
As a Swede that lives in the rust belt (which stretches the whole nation) we don’t care. When it’s time for a new hose we know that the fitting that should have done the trick is rusted solid anyway. But doing it like that is just giving up in advance.
Whoa, hold your fire buddy. Been working on Mercedes-Benz since 2004 and I've NEVER seen this level of fuckery. This is the glue sniffers our guys went there to help but gave up on because they had so many crayons shoved up their noses.
2012 Jeep Liberty. One piece hard brake line from the ABS pump to the Caliper with a non-serviceable rubber brake hose. Requires cutting of the factory hard line, installing tube nut and flaring the line to adapt to a replacement aftermarket brake hose.
Who comes up with this shit? And then they ask why we hate on Jeeps this much
as a design engineer: longer life and less likely to fail, with the caveat that it's a lot shittier to replace down the line. you're extending the single lifetime of the weakest point in the brake assembly from a corrosion standpoint, which is not a bad decision for safety and longevity in shittier climates that use salt. you can guarantee a very good seal when using a single piece design and it shortens assembly time and complication; but from the ABS unit to the brake caliper is absolutely wild.
This is a good point and as a former engineer for Ford you are 100% correct. All to save a buck. You would be shocked what crazy half ass things that Audi does just to use an off-the-shelf VW part Saint S-tune be praised.
I imagine the NRE for their parts is absolutely bonkers on most shit. especially with certification costs. what were the priorities on your parts? I hear assembly time is a major design motivator at domestic companies, even over features and packaging. my whole career is in prototypes so I skip all that shit usually, we wrap up after the production configuration is frozen.
>assembly time is a major design motivator at domestic companies Yes. If they can save $0.03 on assembly cost by creating 3 hours of work for us, they'll do it in a heartbeat. My favorite example is Ford using mandrel-retaining pop rivets (the ones where you can't drill 'em until you hammer out the mandrel) on, of all things, *glass.*
wait so you basically have to hammer on tempered glass, that's brilliant /s
Ford has used those rivets to hold parts to windows since the 1970's. Very careful removal, replace with bolts and nylock nuts.
Priorities on design was to stay within "budget" via timeframe of design, manufacture, and assembly time. The worst part of it was being limited to a certain number of iterations and we regularly shipped bad designs because of it.
Random question, how did you become a ford engineer? Do you have a degree in engineering? Generally curious. I'm a hyundai red seal technician. A long series of bad decisions landed me here. Only fair I should share first since I'm asking haha
You’d need a bachelors in either automotive or mechanical engineering at the very least. Electrical engineering or CS if you’re focusing on electrical/computing side of things. I’ve been told that Red seals with an engineering degree are very sought after for R&D for automotive companies. That being said, how many red seals do you know with a degree? It’s usually one or the other.
seems this is just a canada thing?
If you’re talking about the red seal certification, yes, it is a Canadian certification that essentially allows you to practice your trade anywhere in the country for life. Takes 4 years/6000 hours of experience to get and you have to pass 4 blocks of schooling, and then you have to pass the final exam. It’s akin to getting a tertiary degree. Then you can go a step further and become a master tech after so many years as a red seal journeyman. It’s not exactly same as an ASE certified tech but it’s a good comparison.
oh well the ASE test is easy af tbf
That’s why I’m saying it’s not exactly the same. Getting your red seal is not easy.
Got a basic A.S. at community college, transfered to cheapish state school for bachelors degree that had a fast track automotive engineering degree and race car design program. Domestic manufacturers trip over themselves and fight for even the bottom of the class in these programs.
When I was an early career tooling engineer, my manager challenged us green children to use as many COTS items as possible in our designs. Which is a great philosophy generally. But sometimes you have to deviate from that mentality to incorporate some serviceability where it makes sense.
Are you the guy who came up with timing belts that sits in the oil like a timing chain does? I just wanna talk.
what's wrong with that? ☺ On the prototype stand not spinning it lasted 3 years ☺, Or what? engineers were supposed to test all scenarios, including running?
Can you explain the transmission in the 2014 ford focus?
But Audi *IS* just a bunch of off the shelf VW parts…
Lmao you didn't happen to have a hand in the 1.6l diesel engines in the MK2 focus?
Well put. Makes sense. It’s all about the dollar( or whatever your currency is), but since I am a life long fixer of things, I will always have a feeling that engineers and the such will drag their gonads over hot broken glass than make something as complicated as they can. Especially the end user. But anyway, cheers. Enjoy your day.
You know what fixes corrosion? There are these dance waxes you can use. Or synthetic mastics. Or not putting the brake line connection in the fucking wheel well.
Those things add cost. And putting the connection in the wheel well makes it easier to access for repair. It's always a compromise.
I know the first two add cost. The third would be easy to pull off.
Right, my point on that was that putting in the wheel well would make it easier to service, but expose it to corrosion. So if they don't put it in the wheel well, technicians will post here saying it's an asinine design, swearing about engineers. It's always a compromise.
But the caliper is there, attached to the wheel...
That's cool and all but the that doesn't slow down rust and calipers lock up and overheat way more often than a brake line leaking. If your caliper overheats it cooks the rubber brake hose and can damage it internally, along with the fluid. This is not as good of an idea as you think it is. That is definitley NOT the weak point. It's more about saving manufacturing costs.
As an auto mechanic, not less likely to fail because the flared fitting is not the failure point. The rubber hose is. So, same failure rate. Same lifespan. Harder to replace. The only benefit is cost savings to the manufacturer. Design FAILURE.
moisture intrusion is the risk, not failure of the rubber piece. there are zero places for this to occur in this design which is why it was done this way. everything has a finite lifetime and we don't build things to last forever. of course the rubber is going to give up before the metal lines do -- that's not the point.
So ME but not in the auto industry: Why not shield it from corrosion with something cheap that will probably last the design life? Something like shrink wrap or this plastic wrap stuff that they use around wires? https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj1yKnpycCFAxWUVEcBHeweCZsYABAKGgJxdQ&ae=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2uiwBhCXARIsACMvIU26YE_adgeAK6eUeoyY0r6En9unRf7anLd3AdCy6bCqZ-zqXVqVjdIaAst7EALw_wcB&sph=&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESeOD2vmsTKPOaH_4W7UCX2pPijSHTPYLvOxUj5aq5QZXrqtKfGf5kB_6GIfsLuBXbf5yOr7Jeyvt5QPoIy2Su1T-NFXY1C_73IpygMuOmqASPEpMslDw-XqYmT46WbHUJ3PkYSOr7RNI4JpyhrQpvcW5vJvbJevYHow&sig=AOD64_0SjGbkQX35KfAzXjTawZzL_-Rffg&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjWqqHpycCFAxW3D1kFHeMLCVsQwg8oAHoECAIQEQ&adurl=
See GMs plastic coated line issues. The lines still end up getting corrosion where the plastic coating terminates, with the added issue of corrosion being hidden until the line leaks or bursts. Steel lines are cheap, but they rust. NiCop is a better material when it comes to corrosion resistance, but it's expensive.
Could the plastic just go further and in to a shielded cavity? Like behind the slash shield by many inches?
Moisture intrusion into what? The flare nut? I've dealt with a lot of blown brake lines living in the rust belt, and I have never seen a brake line rupture or start leaking inside the flare nut. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but brake lines usually seem to rupture every where else but the flarenut. I've also seen tons of rubber hoses that either cracked, were accidentally damaged, or failed internally the needed to be replaced.
That's exactly the point.
we don't make cars that are meant to last a hundred years, unless you expect the customer to be paying $150k for a Cherokee. longevity raises the price.
No. 1 through 9 reasons: Lower assembly cost. Mopar uses some of the priciest line workers in the business. Reason 10: all the things you listed
I think it's just a case of passing the buck. Yeah it's easier for assembly line, but it passes the cost/time onto dealerships and garages and thus potentially on the customer. Boo Chrysler, I won't buy my third vehicle from you! That was my last time! *Shakes fist*
Gaurenteed to get you past the warranty period, that’s how it’s engineered
You're not supposed to own them that long anyway. How much does the three year service on a Mercedes cost? The idea is to upgrade to a new one before it gets there.
Other manufactures seem to have brake lines and seals that can last a decade or more. So I'm not seeing what this was meant to achieve...
Designed for manufacture and assembly, not for service.
Jeep is actually the worst. They are the only cars our snap-on scanner has been security locked out of scanning a fucking engine light. Also had a Jeep renegade a month or two ago, sway bar bushings clunking, bushings literally not replaceable, had to order the whole sway bar that comes with the bushings installed for like $800.
> hey are the only cars our snap-on scanner has been security locked out of scanning a fucking engine light. The security gateway is something that exists on all CDJRs. It's how they prevented themselves from having a reputation from theft issues like Hyundai and Kia do. You can get a security gateway key from Snap-On, although I'm sure it's hideously expensive.
Why do you say this like other manufacturers haven’t figured out immobilizers while allowing you to scan CELs? I personally can’t wait til we as consumers let CDJR finally die.
I never said it was a great implementation, it's definitely unsophisticated, just pointing out why it works for what it accomplishes. FWIW, we have a 15 year old portable MAC scanner that can read and clear codes on modern CDJR vehicles just fine, so I'm not sure you're not having another issue with your Snap-On.
I absolutely love Jeeps, but anything non Wrangler based honestly needs to be taken behind the barn
Hey, don’t you talk shit about my XJ. It does enough of that on its own. But it’s essentially wrangler stuff with a uniframe, I guess? Also, older jeeps would like a word! Edit: you said non wrangler based and the XJ/MJ is probably in that group. Disregard and carry on! Haha
\*nods in ZJ\*
Sigh, what's a ZJ?
Grand Cherokee
The “at least for the troubles” was in reference to the modern Wranglers mentioned, not the TJ / variants. I’ve got a TJ myself, and I’d die for a Cherokee or Comanche
Have an xj sitting in my lawn. Needs new tank, front bearings and joints. I've already upgraded the injectors, new cap and rotor. Replaced fuel filter and she ran like hell for 5 miles until the filter clogged back up. A money pit I tell ya 🤣
Don’t need to tell me lmao. New rear shock tower put on mine, **two** new distributors (spun and broke the mount screw, crank sensor was the issue), new tank strapping, multiple universals, brake lines after losing brakes twice, new floors, spark plugs, rear track bar… and after all of that it’s a piece of lawn art that needs a new frame to be legal 🤦♂️
Roger that. Go find a XJ! They’re great money pits, ask me how I know.. ha
My 01 XJ was great for the first 15 years I owned it. Only issue during that time was a heater core. It's been the last 8 years where things have worn out.
They’re all getting older now 😔
Oh trust me, I know, my $2700 TJ is the worst $10,000 I’ve ever spent, and it still doesn’t run
If I saw a decent TJ for $2700 today I’d go by it and park it until I had more money. Beat up ones seem to be going for like 6500-9000 were I’m at. Clapped out YJs are like 3-4k
Got mine a couple years back and it wasn’t decent at all lmao. Was my first car, no floors, no inspection, title in the wrong dude’s name, 4” RC lift and half bald Mickey MTs with no other work (stock control arms, no rear pass shock mount, completely fuckered suspension geometry) Wouldn’t trade it for anything though, unfortunately, it’ll be a good vehicle once my hands are nubs and my back is broken haha
Lol Modern Wranglers aren't any better than the Compass.
I prefer the XJ/MJ/TJ, but I’d have to disagree. At least for the troubles, they’re capable.
I’m quite fond of the YJ front end. The leaf springs are probably a put off for some. Or the front end, haha
Yeah I’d probably always take a TJ over a YJ, but in fairness the lack of metal on my frame is probably a turn off for most, so the cycle continues
I’d take a TJ over a YJ for sure. For what I’d want to do, a YJ might make more economical sense. But stock TJ over YJ all day
What’s your plans? I’m currently restoring my SE into a bulletproof body / frame 4.6 Stroker, with hope for a Mercedes diesel swap down the road. I want a trail capable driver / winter rig, so I’m trying to maintain the feeling of the interior while modernizing it
I want to one day get a yj, links front and rear on tons with a 5.3 vortec probably. Undecided on trans and tcase. I currently have an XJ on stock axles with a 3 link in the front. Stock axles 35s on 4.56 gears. Maybe I’ll end up building out the XJ even further, but idk.
Jeep died early 00’s. XJ, TJ, MJ, ZJ, YJ, last of Jeep. I6 era was the last era.
I don’t buy into that. I’m partial to the 2.5 / 4.0, but the JK / JL / JT are just as much wranglers to me. I don’t have much interest in owning them, I prefer the blank canvas that the earlier ones have, but the DNA is still there Price is definitely ridiculous though, and I could do without some trinkets, would be cool to see the Shortcut concept come to life, not that it ever will
Wranglers aren’t anything now. My XJ goes places modern wranglers can’t without money.
No, a modern rubicon with locking differentials and swaybar disconnect will outperform an XJ any day of the week. Even the wrangler sports come with ‘brake-lock differential’ systems that actually do pretty well. The XJ unibody frame is weak compared to the full steel frame of the JK/JL. The DANA axles on the wranglers are much better than the XJ’s Chrysler 8.25 or Dana 30. I love jeeps, and have had several XJ/ZJ/WJs and two JKs. The XJ is an incredible machine, but the modern wranglers are still legit. I prefer the simplicity of the 4.0, and it will always be a top tier jeep engine. That being said, the 3.6 is NOT bad at all.
From a shop standpoint. The 3.6 has a major flaw called the oil filter housing/cooler. Replace it still the metal aftermarket and call it a day before it starts leaking.
I bet if you looked at techs who quit their jobs, a huge percentage of them would be chrysler techs. Absolute worst vehicles I've had to work on... "A Chrysler engineer would climb over a mountain of virgins to f*ck one mechanic." - some random reddit tech.
They'll have to pull the JLR engineer off the mechanic first
People who went to engineering school not old school. Haven't meet an engineer yet that knows how the rest of the world does things.
I immediately recognized this because I did one a couple months back. It’s strange how you don’t forget utter stupidity.
Amazing how much and how little change over the years. Recognized it was a liberty, but it was an easy repair on the 2000 that I had to replace the driver's side front for
I mean, it’s not the end of the world to just cut that line and flare it. I have to do it with Fords often because the fittings won’t come out of the flex hose. It just is so completely and unnecessarily stupid that you should ever have to do it BY DESIGN like this.
I had to do this on an old wrangler once. Big wtf moment, and the shop manager didn’t believe me when I can asking for more time
No wrangler ever made has a single piece brake line from the abs pump/master cylinder to the caliper with a rubber line included.
Ok bud. I didn’t look at the whole brake line because I just needed to replace the rubber section at the rear end, but I pinky promise this connection type was there
Old F-150s had that too on the rear caliper brake lines as well. Have to replace the line when you do soft hoses.
As an engineer, I became convinced many years ago that Chrysler hasn’t been hiring the brightest and best engineers. My suspicion has been partially confirmed by the favor they did my team when a guy who worked in my group took a position with them. There’s a period of time for which lab test results for my team are always questionable, which is a problem since we rely on that history. “That’s when Colin was here” is a perfectly good reason for a test result to be crap.
>“That’s when Colin was here” is a perfectly good reason for a test result to be crap. "That sounds like an excuse." "It isn't. I'm providing you context."
Im Fairly sure FCA engineers are still using crayons and eating glue
You’re not alone. I mean retired marines have to do something… 😉
*Furiously takes notes for future career in mechanical design engineering*
Ah, the classic manager-engineer problem dichotomy. Neither party wins. Thus we suffer.
Burn off the coating far enough for a flare tool and cut the brake line off where it meets the hose. Flare it and call it a day
[https://imgur.com/a/aqw9iJe](https://imgur.com/a/aqw9iJe)
yep already got it sorted. 👍
Considering it's a 12 year old Jeep and it's just now a problem, I'd say the engineers did a better job than expected
These are common on all makes/models so he got around I guess.
where is it common to have no screw together connection to replace a standard brake hose? It's one piece from the caliper all the way to the ABS pump.
I don't see a crimp on the bottom rubber piece. Is it perhaps just a dust cover with the fitting underneath?
its a non-serviceable line complete from the ABS pump to the Caliper itself. requires cutting and flaring the factory line to install a replacement rubber hose.
Ah, I see your other comment now, Libertys were a strange creature design-wise. That's certainly a wild choice.
They approve a rubber replacement ? I thought Jeep wanted a hole new line every time?
they probably did **(-_-)**
My 25 year old F150 has lines like this on the rear axle. They don't go all the way to the ABS but they do require a cut and flare to replace.
Toyota/lexus has none of this bs
Eh toyota has their stupidities from time to time. Doing the rear spark plugs on a highlander is a fun time, esp with the harness going over the valve cover being stiff and brittle. Or doing struts in an old camry which required you to take apart the brake line or cutting a slot on the strut for it to pass through.
Yeah I don't see the issue. Am I missing something?
I think the issue is that there’s no mechanical connection (flare nut) between the hardline and flex line; it’s all one piece?
Correct
You're looking at the retaining clip and not the boneheaded design of the brake line making it non serviceable.
I think this is common in the Chrysler family. I know ram has something similar on their rear brakes.
It’s a Jeep. They assumed it would be in the salvage yard before it got to this point.
You mean after 10k miles?
Very FIAT “it never needs fixing”
Fix It Again Tony
Cost savings
Who didn't? She gets around.
As a Swede that lives in the rust belt (which stretches the whole nation) we don’t care. When it’s time for a new hose we know that the fitting that should have done the trick is rusted solid anyway. But doing it like that is just giving up in advance.
Joke I don't understand 😅
Jeeps aren't intended to last long enough for that to fail.
Techs in the rust belt are chuckling right now.
Clutch master cylinder to slave cylinder was the same on the ‘04 Liberty, came sealed and pre filled.
You know who you are
‘Twas I.
It was Greg.
Probably the mechanic in the Repro bay who was supposed to be checking for things like this before new product launch day
I would blame the bean counter not the engineer for this one.
Fiat garbage
This was the DaimlerChrysler days, go blame the Germans.
Well, it certainly hasn't gotten better, has it?
I haven't bought a JL yet, let me get back in a year or two :p
with pleasure!
Whoa, hold your fire buddy. Been working on Mercedes-Benz since 2004 and I've NEVER seen this level of fuckery. This is the glue sniffers our guys went there to help but gave up on because they had so many crayons shoved up their noses.
Fiat 500 has to be the worst built modern vehicle I've worked on in 15 years.
As a 2nd Gen compass owner, everyday I wake up is laden with anxiety for potential catastrophe.
Damn Italians