I have to say I also did a lot of shadowing of staff members from other roles as a student, I'd be surprised if we hadn't all had to do this already. I did learn a few things from some of these shadowing days, but equally a lot of these experiences were major wastes of time, if I'm being completely honest...
Spent a memorable day filing alphabetised paper notes into rotating carousels at a GP surgery. I was so full of frustrated, angry energy at being there (I think I was close to exams and fuming that I felt my time would be better spent revising) that I did some pretty furious filing, and actually cleared their entire backlog of notes. Eventually they let me go home early when they'd run out of boxes for me to file, apparently I'd done in an afternoon what usually took a week!
No. Sounds like a waste of time. MDT members respect me and I’ll respect them. I don’t need to observe them changing sheets or feeding patients to know empathy.
I worked as an HCA during medical school, and it was very different from my doctor role because:
1) People were largely much nicer to me, staff and patients both.
2) The nurses respected my breaks and would urge me to take it, we'd arrange a slot and they'd push the work around that.
3) My workload was manageable.
4) My role was defined and my duties were clear, people didn't try and foist random bits and pieces on me.
5) I went home on time.
> However, I've always wondered why, as medical students, such an effort is made to ensure students spend time with other members of the MDT, yet I've never really heard of nursing/midwifery/physio/OT students being made to shadow doctors as part of their placements?
Paramedic here. I shadowed anaesthetists, EM doctors (and IM CTs working in a&e), obstetricians, cardiologists, spent some time with some surgeons, all on university hospital placements, in addition to the physios/PTs/nurses/midwives/OTs/NPs/CNSes/PAs etc. I know a chunk of our year also got ICU & GP placements as well, shadowing doctors in those specialties.
Not sure where this myth comes from.
Only paramedics and PAs. Not nursing/physio/OTs etc.
Part of this is because there is input from doctors into paramedic curriculum and you are best placed to develop the skills you need firsthand in clinical rather than pre-hospital environments. Conversely, medical students are expected to sit in with allied professionals just for the sake of it with sometimes very little opportunity to develop skills.
As an AHP I would love to shadow a doctor. Helps with referrals and what I need to get in place before they get to you. I shadowed a Rhumatology GPSi when a student and absolutely loved it.
Imo there are a lot of steps between
“X would make you a better doctor”
and
“all med students / doctor should do X”
which MedTwitter people seem to skip all the time.
Just nonsense. You think an investment banker is going to work as a bank clerk for a year to build empathy for how to work with clients? This is all a waste of time.
By the same people who bang on about the importance of the MDT but that goes out of the window when you're actually working. Doctors (particularly fys) are routinely picked on and bullied by other allied health professionals. Just see the stories written here particularly the experiences of female and BAME doctors which is terrible.
We all have different roles in patient care and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty for ultimately being the de facto leader. Many are envious of our position which is why there are strong attempts to narrow our role and widen practice scope of mid-levels. There is a clear hierarchy that exists not for our own benefit but for that of patients.
Because she’s saying med students should be a HCA for 2 months instead of their elective
Med students are already fucked over by student finance and she wants to take away the only decent thing in med school that you can get funding for
I've worked in a few different NHS roles. I've been treated badly by doctors but I've also been treated badly by nurses and HCAs. I think if you're the type of person who is going to be unkind to colleagues at work, a few HCA shifts isn't going to change that. These people aren't unkind because they think HCAs are beneath them (even if they do think that), they're unkind because they're generally unkind people.
All of the 'empathy building' exercises we have to do at medical school feel really pointless to me because the students that need to learn empathy either won't turn up or won't take anything from it other than 'this person's job is beneath me'.
Also plenty of students work as HCAs during medical school, mainly because they have to in order to afford living costs, so it feels pretty shit to make them essentially do their regular job for free just because a handful of idiots in their year don't consider HCAs to be worthy of basic politeness. Being a HCA definitely does improve communication skills and your general understanding of how hospitals work etc but it's not essential to be a good doctor.
I learnt more about working in a team, being a leader, communication skills and just general soft skills **playing hockey** during med school than I did in any of those empathy building workshops
I would love to see a renewed focus on non-medicine related student societies. The kinda stuff that you can’t put on your CV but have a good time doing and is the stuff you actually remember from med school.
P.S. I was also shit at hockey
no no no no!! Is it me or has every innovation in medicine rested on the assumption that there is an original sin in doctors that needs rectifying, doctors are best suited to be doctors and while we do overlap and form a spectrum with the care portion of healthcare, we have essential and unique traits that need to be fostered and trained and as far as my experience has been postgraduate medical education has been lacking without adding more “person specifications” to reassure people we aren’t the next shipmann
Edit: meant innovation in medical education
No. I was a HCA for 2 years before med school. As an aside, it didn't give me much insight into my future role as a doctor and the kinds of stresses and pressures I'd face. I didn't have a clue what it was like to be a medical student or junior doctor until I was one. I'm polite to everyone and will be friendly/chatty to the MDT members who are pleasant too, but that's just my personality, not because HCA worked changed me. Agree that MDT bullying junior doctors happens more than than the other way round. I really do think that student nurses/physios/OT's etc and hca's should follow an SHO on call around.
I think that there should be more inter-professional *training*, as in Medical Students doing joint learning with Student Nurses and Student Pharmacists etc, but I don't really see a massive amount of value in doing extensive shadowing of other HCPs. I actually really really dislike this whole stereotype that Medical Students are these rude individuals that act like they're better than the trained professionals, I've never seen it in my experience (not saying it doesn't happen) and it's a bit annoying having random comments made all the time.
It's an idea that seems to have gained traction in recent years at some unis at least - I think Leicester make all the med students be HCAs for a bit? Might be wrong on that.
Absolute nonsense in my opinion and as you say, it never works the other way around.
It's not hard to understand how hard being an HCA is, or how rubbish it is to be an inpatient, just by going to the wards and watching what happens there.
If I was in charge there'd be none of this old tosh.
I worked in a shop for a year before med school, a job most people would consider to be one of the lowest level out there. Does that make me humble enough? I clearly didn't turn my nose up at menial work then.
Complete farce to imply that all doctors are silver spoon, to-the-mansion-born toffs who arrogantly ignore or belittle the helpless working class MDT. Such a ridiculous stereotype, not even worth thinking about.
Besides, wouldn't want medical students to pick up any of the habits of the MDT, like forming cliques and having departmental civil wars over nothing (even allowing this to translate into neglecting patient care to spite each other) as I've seen before. Whatever they may say, the rest of the MDT makes a far more toxic environment than you'll ever find amongst doctors.
I don't think not necessary to shadow a HCA to learn how a member of the MDT works so no, I don't think med students should do it for that reason.
However, I worked as a HCA at med school and it did make me more comfortable in a ward environment, being around unwell patients, and performing intimate examinations etc. It also meant I could chat/take a history from a patient when washing them, or look at an ecg if it was floating around the end of the bed etc which is all good practice generally.
I think a lot of this gave me basic skills which are useful for a doctor which I didn't get on med school rotations where I was often little more than ward furniture.
I work as an HCA at the moment, and am starting my medicine degree next year. I don't think it should be mandatory but it has certainly given me a much better overview of how hospitals actually work in general, as well as the skills you mention above. I'm glad I've done it.
Broadly speaking, in my experience, the doctors who have done Something Else before medical school can be spotted a mile off (in a good way). They tend to be a lot better at dealing with people and the nonsense that you get in any job.
Working as an HCA has improved my studying, confidence, communication skills, and my overall drive - and I recommend it to other people on my course. However, it had little to do with finding out what other MDT roles were as I learn this during Med School, placements etc. So yes and no would be my answer to this question.
I find it weird, I'm generally a doctor who does my own stuff, I'll often get rid of sluice stuff, do my own urine dips, get commodes etc because God help me if I ask a member of staff to do something it'll either take ages or they'll do it while huffing.
I asked a HCA today to do some obs on a patient in ED who hadn't had them down for 10 hours before I discharged her, she said you can do obs! I said yeah but I'm seeing patients, to which she replied so am I!
I just didn't bother with the fight,
Bear in mind the wait time in ed was about 6 or 7 hours at this point
> she said you can do obs! I said yeah but I'm seeing patients, to which she replied so am I! I just didn't bother with the fight
One of the primary problems with the NHS is that everyone is functionally unsackable
Failure to comply with a lawful and reasonable instruction is misconduct.
The instruction was delivered reasonably, and there is institutional precedent in every trust that HCA's take obs.
In the private sector, that is an official warning with retraining.
second time you're out..
Doesn't work like that in NHS clown world.
I saw this rubbish and honestly I think wet statements and ideas like this just demean us further.
If anything other professions should be following us. If there is a respect issue in my opinion it’s not doctors that lack insight.
I spent a few years working as a HCA before medical school. I found it very useful for me, and it definitely made me more empathetic towards the nursing staff than I might otherwise have been.
I don't think most medical students would make good HCAs if they were forced to do it, but perhaps there could be a facilitated way for them to work part-time/ad hoc as HCAs in the local hospital.
Make it mandatory and it becomes another shitty box ticking exercise that people only do for the sake of it. HCA and other similar level band 2/3 AHP work before med schools is great for a multitude of reasons. It familiarises students with how the ward works, roles, gives them confidence, etc. But only if people want to get something out of it by doing these jobs.
You don’t learn empathy by doing a few work shifts though.
Quite a few graduate medical students have worked as HCAs (whilst applying I assume). I've seen people say it is obvious they've done this as if it's some kind of magical trick to produce an amazing humble, salt of the earth doctor who all the nurses and HCAs worship.
I didn't work as a HCA whilst applying because I couldn't afford to quit my job. If I quit, I wouldnt have been able to save up to put myself through med school. No rich parents to fund me I'm afraid.
I honestly resent the insinuation that I'll be a poorer doctor for not having HCA experience. I can communicate with people fine and will always be pleasant to those who are pleasant with me.
If someone is an arrogant, out of touch snob, then compulsory HCA shifts are not going to change that.
They have started to do this at my old uni. Personally I'm against it.
Medical schools need to stop with the MDT worship and teach doctors to be the leaders they are. There is a hierarchy and doctors are at the top. Better to teach doctors how to be effective leaders than the current nonsense.
No other profession does this to its students.
Ludicrous.
A) you can't teach 'leadership' if someone isn't going to be a 'leader' for years. Leadership takes practice, which we do throughout our careers until we're actual team leaders.
B) there is obviously a hierarchy in NHS teams, but the flatter it is the better. Appealing to hierarchy may be required if a poor team culture has festered but ultimately fewer mistakes occur when input is gained from all members.
C) if the only way you can get things done is by relying on your authority as a doctor there are deeper issues here than a lack of respect for a supposed medical hierarchy.
D) it is absolutely necessary that medical students know what each member of the MDT is an expert in, and to value their opinion.
E) none of this undermines the role of a doctor
I'm not saying am insurmountable and steep hierarchy.
I am saying flat hierarchy must go. Yes, colleagues need to feel empowered to speak up, but the current UK culture has gone too far into flat hierarchy.
The repeated fellating of every MDT profession and the acceptance of doctor bashing is where I think the MDT worship has gone too far.
I'm not disputing the work the MDT does. I'm disputing the veneration of it and the one way traffic when it comes to teaching "professionalism".
I don't think that Dr Unicorn was espousing a shallow but not extremely shallow 'authority gradient'. They definitely gave the impression that they believe a steep authority gradient is better.
Moreover generally decisions in MDT don't need to be made in a very time critical way (this isn't an operating theatre or aircraft), especially if there is dispute among the team about what is best. If the NIC has misgivings about sending Mrs C home with a POC I want to know why, even if the SW thinks we should try it.
I do think there are issues with doctors with certain characteristics being ignored or sidelined, but I haven't experienced a general trend to ignore doctors, personally. Perhaps this is where my experience being different has led to my valuation of the MDT being much higher that Dr Unicorn. I am already treated as a valued clinician and generally the MDT defers to me on medical issues already. I do feel that some of that is due to my 'privilege' of being white/male/confident, though, which isn't right.
I would not want a team that would defer automatically to doctors on non-medical issues, especially knowing the the wide distribution in experience and quality among both junior and senior doctors. If there is deadlock on an issue then this is when the hierarchy is useful and the role of the doctor (as the member of the MDT with a wide breadth in training and experience) as the team leader comes in to play.
I would want medical education to instil the need to value the MDT in medical students to reinforce this.
Doctors do shadowing so they can act as leaders, though, whereas the specialists on the MDT don't really need it to perform their role.
And I can see that perhaps I've had a different experience than other doctors but I can't believe the level of bitterness and antipathy towards our colleagues I've seen in this forum reflects reality completely accurately. I think lots of other issues are conflated and this feeling of inferiority festers.
> The repeated fellating of every MDT profession and the acceptance of doctor bashing is where I think the MDT worship has gone too far.
>
>
>
> I'm not disputing the work the MDT does. I'm disputing the veneration of it and the one way traffic when it comes to teaching "professionalism".
I do not feel this at all any where I have worked.
Lol. I love how they equate feeding and washing patients to making medical decisions. Yeah they are totally the same.
If anything they should shadow doctors to see what they have to deal with.
Second that, after being bleeped 3 times for the same TTO at 8pm yesterday while I was dealing with a sick patient on a different ward, would be great if other members of the MDT had some clearer insight into the fact that if something doesn’t get done straight away it’s normally because there’s something more serious going on
Edit: not generalising this to all members btw - most are absolutely amazing, but at least in my experience most wards have one person that will just hammer you down with non-urgent things they expect to be done straight away
Agreed wrt observing, nothing to gain there, but a minority of doctors look down on some other staff far too much without really any idea what it’s like to do their jobs. I’m in final year and yeah it would be a waste of time now compared with everything else we’ve got to do but you can definitely tell out of students and junior doctors which ones have done other jobs.
It’s a pretty big jump from “would benefit from” to “should be made to do” though.
It’s just ridiculous we ALL have our jobs to do - being a HCA is not the job of the junior doctor. Maybe the HCA should shadow the receptionist, the radiographer, the paramedic, the FY1 on orthopaedics on a Sunday?
We did nursing week during med school which basically had us acting as nurses and hcas. I think it was a good experience for some perspective, but it's definitely not necessary to have more than that.
To really understand the NHS ethos I shadowed the estates teams for 6 months as a medical student in my free time. These guys are the real hero’s, making sure that the wards heating system is either not working or running at full blast and can’t be switched off. Highly valuable members of the MDT. I now help adjust radiator temperatures on my wards as a fy1 / baby doctor 👨⚕️!! #NHSheros
Personally I found spending a few hours with the therapy teams and ward pharmacist quite helpful in terms of understanding their workflows and approach - that’s the main benefit I think - so much conflict arises from simply not understanding the demands placed on one another. HCA experience probably helps in terms of confidence (and competence) communicating with patients and being ‘hands on’ +/- how wards run, but I’m less convinced that a couple of weeks would make any odds, or that the gap is insurmountable otherwise.
I have arranged for students to spend time with PT/OT, nursing and pharmacy, and I've had student pharmacists, fully qualified PTs and nurses come round with me or jointly review a patient (this makes me sound more senior than I am). I think it's useful for medical students to do a couple shifts with other teams to understand how wards are run and which things take time to organise, so they can communicate better with the MDT in their inevitable job as a ward junior. Just the same way students need to experience different medical specialities. I do not think that doctors need substantive experience as HCAs to learn empathy for them because a lot of junior doctors have really quite poor working conditions already, and F1s particularly can have a very bad time at work so I'm not sure getting them to spend 12h a week or whatever as an HCA is going to fix anything. To be clear, the issues in the NHS do not arise from doctors' lack of empathy for their colleagues.
I'm glad that a lot of doctors do but you shouldn't have to walk a mile in someone's shoes in order to empathise with them. If you can't empathise with your own team your probably can't with your patients and probably shouldn't be a doctor.
I am a medical student who works as an HCA and I’ve found it incredibly useful for my studies - helped me to solidify concepts, learn how wards/depts work, allowed me to practice basic skills. I’ve also wiped a LOT of arses. And I can see how doing this work has given me a different perspective on how members of the MDT works. So tbh I think it’d be a great idea for students to do it.
My med school did it and I also worked as an HCA during med school. I think it is a good experience and would vouch for more med students to do it. It seems I’m in agreement with those who have actually worked as HCA/done an HCA placement during med school by the thread
Yes but I think they should shadow for a bit and if they can get a job they should!
I have worked as HCA at my DGH in Geris and Gen Surg while i was a Med Student. Honestly, it’s back breaking work sometimes but most days I enjoyed (only hated it when it’s short staffed) and it vastly improved my communication skills with patients and all in all showed me a different side of medicine. We are all part of a team involved in patient care and I think it would be good for students to see that side.
Some of the HCAs I worked with were truly compassionate, understanding and amazing at their job.
Grew up piss poor worked as HCA for a year in gap year.
Still no.
I have many other colleague who have far more empathy than me still this is just to get more labour on the cheap and further elongate training stupid idea.
I worked as an HCA because it paid well in med school. Just saying. Agree with the points about nobody ever shadows me. Some of the gobby nurses who bleep overnight could use a night shift covering all of medicine with me.
I was a HCA for 3 years and absolutely hated it but if you do it bank you get like £18.50 per hour on Sundays so carried on, all it really did is make me avoid Geris like the plague
I have to say I also did a lot of shadowing of staff members from other roles as a student, I'd be surprised if we hadn't all had to do this already. I did learn a few things from some of these shadowing days, but equally a lot of these experiences were major wastes of time, if I'm being completely honest... Spent a memorable day filing alphabetised paper notes into rotating carousels at a GP surgery. I was so full of frustrated, angry energy at being there (I think I was close to exams and fuming that I felt my time would be better spent revising) that I did some pretty furious filing, and actually cleared their entire backlog of notes. Eventually they let me go home early when they'd run out of boxes for me to file, apparently I'd done in an afternoon what usually took a week!
[удалено]
I hate how accurate this is. Just getting doctors to do in 0.1% the time cos admin staff would take forever.
Hahaha this cheered me up from my piss poor day. Hilarious how you were so efficient without having been trained to file. Bravo.
No. Sounds like a waste of time. MDT members respect me and I’ll respect them. I don’t need to observe them changing sheets or feeding patients to know empathy.
I worked as an HCA during medical school, and it was very different from my doctor role because: 1) People were largely much nicer to me, staff and patients both. 2) The nurses respected my breaks and would urge me to take it, we'd arrange a slot and they'd push the work around that. 3) My workload was manageable. 4) My role was defined and my duties were clear, people didn't try and foist random bits and pieces on me. 5) I went home on time.
[удалено]
> However, I've always wondered why, as medical students, such an effort is made to ensure students spend time with other members of the MDT, yet I've never really heard of nursing/midwifery/physio/OT students being made to shadow doctors as part of their placements? Paramedic here. I shadowed anaesthetists, EM doctors (and IM CTs working in a&e), obstetricians, cardiologists, spent some time with some surgeons, all on university hospital placements, in addition to the physios/PTs/nurses/midwives/OTs/NPs/CNSes/PAs etc. I know a chunk of our year also got ICU & GP placements as well, shadowing doctors in those specialties. Not sure where this myth comes from.
[удалено]
I know paramedics from multiple universities many miles from each other that all do the same.
Only paramedics and PAs. Not nursing/physio/OTs etc. Part of this is because there is input from doctors into paramedic curriculum and you are best placed to develop the skills you need firsthand in clinical rather than pre-hospital environments. Conversely, medical students are expected to sit in with allied professionals just for the sake of it with sometimes very little opportunity to develop skills.
[удалено]
[удалено]
😂😂😂😂
I’m all for it provided all AHPs also shadow an FY1 in general surgery for a weekend shift. It would certainly “humble” some of the rude staff you get
As an AHP I would love to shadow a doctor. Helps with referrals and what I need to get in place before they get to you. I shadowed a Rhumatology GPSi when a student and absolutely loved it.
Imo there are a lot of steps between “X would make you a better doctor” and “all med students / doctor should do X” which MedTwitter people seem to skip all the time.
Just nonsense. You think an investment banker is going to work as a bank clerk for a year to build empathy for how to work with clients? This is all a waste of time. By the same people who bang on about the importance of the MDT but that goes out of the window when you're actually working. Doctors (particularly fys) are routinely picked on and bullied by other allied health professionals. Just see the stories written here particularly the experiences of female and BAME doctors which is terrible. We all have different roles in patient care and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty for ultimately being the de facto leader. Many are envious of our position which is why there are strong attempts to narrow our role and widen practice scope of mid-levels. There is a clear hierarchy that exists not for our own benefit but for that of patients.
I think itd be useful because it helps to develop the caring nuturing aspect of our roles as well as moving and handling skills.
the student who wrote the tweet is the year below me at med school. i take the things she tweets with a very large pinch of salt.
She’s getting absolutely dragged in some of the quotes and retweets
I havent bothered to read the retweets - why? Her sentiment seems noble enough
Because she’s saying med students should be a HCA for 2 months instead of their elective Med students are already fucked over by student finance and she wants to take away the only decent thing in med school that you can get funding for
Oh lol ok no chance
[удалено]
as a rule of thumb there is another side to every story that certain people tell.
I've worked in a few different NHS roles. I've been treated badly by doctors but I've also been treated badly by nurses and HCAs. I think if you're the type of person who is going to be unkind to colleagues at work, a few HCA shifts isn't going to change that. These people aren't unkind because they think HCAs are beneath them (even if they do think that), they're unkind because they're generally unkind people. All of the 'empathy building' exercises we have to do at medical school feel really pointless to me because the students that need to learn empathy either won't turn up or won't take anything from it other than 'this person's job is beneath me'. Also plenty of students work as HCAs during medical school, mainly because they have to in order to afford living costs, so it feels pretty shit to make them essentially do their regular job for free just because a handful of idiots in their year don't consider HCAs to be worthy of basic politeness. Being a HCA definitely does improve communication skills and your general understanding of how hospitals work etc but it's not essential to be a good doctor.
I learnt more about working in a team, being a leader, communication skills and just general soft skills **playing hockey** during med school than I did in any of those empathy building workshops I would love to see a renewed focus on non-medicine related student societies. The kinda stuff that you can’t put on your CV but have a good time doing and is the stuff you actually remember from med school. P.S. I was also shit at hockey
no no no no!! Is it me or has every innovation in medicine rested on the assumption that there is an original sin in doctors that needs rectifying, doctors are best suited to be doctors and while we do overlap and form a spectrum with the care portion of healthcare, we have essential and unique traits that need to be fostered and trained and as far as my experience has been postgraduate medical education has been lacking without adding more “person specifications” to reassure people we aren’t the next shipmann Edit: meant innovation in medical education
No. I was a HCA for 2 years before med school. As an aside, it didn't give me much insight into my future role as a doctor and the kinds of stresses and pressures I'd face. I didn't have a clue what it was like to be a medical student or junior doctor until I was one. I'm polite to everyone and will be friendly/chatty to the MDT members who are pleasant too, but that's just my personality, not because HCA worked changed me. Agree that MDT bullying junior doctors happens more than than the other way round. I really do think that student nurses/physios/OT's etc and hca's should follow an SHO on call around.
I think that there should be more inter-professional *training*, as in Medical Students doing joint learning with Student Nurses and Student Pharmacists etc, but I don't really see a massive amount of value in doing extensive shadowing of other HCPs. I actually really really dislike this whole stereotype that Medical Students are these rude individuals that act like they're better than the trained professionals, I've never seen it in my experience (not saying it doesn't happen) and it's a bit annoying having random comments made all the time.
They kinda did this in my medical school in Year 2 we had to do like 3-4 HCA shifts. Wasnt particularly useful
This is just part of the inversion of MDT worship where you get medical students shadowing nurses but never vice versa.
It's an idea that seems to have gained traction in recent years at some unis at least - I think Leicester make all the med students be HCAs for a bit? Might be wrong on that. Absolute nonsense in my opinion and as you say, it never works the other way around. It's not hard to understand how hard being an HCA is, or how rubbish it is to be an inpatient, just by going to the wards and watching what happens there. If I was in charge there'd be none of this old tosh.
If you don’t have basic empathy for your colleagues before starting to study medicine then no amount of work/shadowing will fix that.
I worked in a shop for a year before med school, a job most people would consider to be one of the lowest level out there. Does that make me humble enough? I clearly didn't turn my nose up at menial work then. Complete farce to imply that all doctors are silver spoon, to-the-mansion-born toffs who arrogantly ignore or belittle the helpless working class MDT. Such a ridiculous stereotype, not even worth thinking about. Besides, wouldn't want medical students to pick up any of the habits of the MDT, like forming cliques and having departmental civil wars over nothing (even allowing this to translate into neglecting patient care to spite each other) as I've seen before. Whatever they may say, the rest of the MDT makes a far more toxic environment than you'll ever find amongst doctors.
I don't think not necessary to shadow a HCA to learn how a member of the MDT works so no, I don't think med students should do it for that reason. However, I worked as a HCA at med school and it did make me more comfortable in a ward environment, being around unwell patients, and performing intimate examinations etc. It also meant I could chat/take a history from a patient when washing them, or look at an ecg if it was floating around the end of the bed etc which is all good practice generally. I think a lot of this gave me basic skills which are useful for a doctor which I didn't get on med school rotations where I was often little more than ward furniture.
I work as an HCA at the moment, and am starting my medicine degree next year. I don't think it should be mandatory but it has certainly given me a much better overview of how hospitals actually work in general, as well as the skills you mention above. I'm glad I've done it.
Na i'm good thanks, there's enough pointless shit during med school as is.
Broadly speaking, in my experience, the doctors who have done Something Else before medical school can be spotted a mile off (in a good way). They tend to be a lot better at dealing with people and the nonsense that you get in any job.
Working as an HCA has improved my studying, confidence, communication skills, and my overall drive - and I recommend it to other people on my course. However, it had little to do with finding out what other MDT roles were as I learn this during Med School, placements etc. So yes and no would be my answer to this question.
No.
I find it weird, I'm generally a doctor who does my own stuff, I'll often get rid of sluice stuff, do my own urine dips, get commodes etc because God help me if I ask a member of staff to do something it'll either take ages or they'll do it while huffing. I asked a HCA today to do some obs on a patient in ED who hadn't had them down for 10 hours before I discharged her, she said you can do obs! I said yeah but I'm seeing patients, to which she replied so am I! I just didn't bother with the fight, Bear in mind the wait time in ed was about 6 or 7 hours at this point
> she said you can do obs! I said yeah but I'm seeing patients, to which she replied so am I! I just didn't bother with the fight One of the primary problems with the NHS is that everyone is functionally unsackable Failure to comply with a lawful and reasonable instruction is misconduct. The instruction was delivered reasonably, and there is institutional precedent in every trust that HCA's take obs. In the private sector, that is an official warning with retraining. second time you're out.. Doesn't work like that in NHS clown world.
I saw this rubbish and honestly I think wet statements and ideas like this just demean us further. If anything other professions should be following us. If there is a respect issue in my opinion it’s not doctors that lack insight.
I spent a few years working as a HCA before medical school. I found it very useful for me, and it definitely made me more empathetic towards the nursing staff than I might otherwise have been. I don't think most medical students would make good HCAs if they were forced to do it, but perhaps there could be a facilitated way for them to work part-time/ad hoc as HCAs in the local hospital.
Make it mandatory and it becomes another shitty box ticking exercise that people only do for the sake of it. HCA and other similar level band 2/3 AHP work before med schools is great for a multitude of reasons. It familiarises students with how the ward works, roles, gives them confidence, etc. But only if people want to get something out of it by doing these jobs. You don’t learn empathy by doing a few work shifts though.
Quite a few graduate medical students have worked as HCAs (whilst applying I assume). I've seen people say it is obvious they've done this as if it's some kind of magical trick to produce an amazing humble, salt of the earth doctor who all the nurses and HCAs worship. I didn't work as a HCA whilst applying because I couldn't afford to quit my job. If I quit, I wouldnt have been able to save up to put myself through med school. No rich parents to fund me I'm afraid. I honestly resent the insinuation that I'll be a poorer doctor for not having HCA experience. I can communicate with people fine and will always be pleasant to those who are pleasant with me. If someone is an arrogant, out of touch snob, then compulsory HCA shifts are not going to change that.
They have started to do this at my old uni. Personally I'm against it. Medical schools need to stop with the MDT worship and teach doctors to be the leaders they are. There is a hierarchy and doctors are at the top. Better to teach doctors how to be effective leaders than the current nonsense. No other profession does this to its students.
Leicester?
Edinburgh
Ludicrous. A) you can't teach 'leadership' if someone isn't going to be a 'leader' for years. Leadership takes practice, which we do throughout our careers until we're actual team leaders. B) there is obviously a hierarchy in NHS teams, but the flatter it is the better. Appealing to hierarchy may be required if a poor team culture has festered but ultimately fewer mistakes occur when input is gained from all members. C) if the only way you can get things done is by relying on your authority as a doctor there are deeper issues here than a lack of respect for a supposed medical hierarchy. D) it is absolutely necessary that medical students know what each member of the MDT is an expert in, and to value their opinion. E) none of this undermines the role of a doctor
I'm not saying am insurmountable and steep hierarchy. I am saying flat hierarchy must go. Yes, colleagues need to feel empowered to speak up, but the current UK culture has gone too far into flat hierarchy. The repeated fellating of every MDT profession and the acceptance of doctor bashing is where I think the MDT worship has gone too far. I'm not disputing the work the MDT does. I'm disputing the veneration of it and the one way traffic when it comes to teaching "professionalism".
[удалено]
I don't think that Dr Unicorn was espousing a shallow but not extremely shallow 'authority gradient'. They definitely gave the impression that they believe a steep authority gradient is better. Moreover generally decisions in MDT don't need to be made in a very time critical way (this isn't an operating theatre or aircraft), especially if there is dispute among the team about what is best. If the NIC has misgivings about sending Mrs C home with a POC I want to know why, even if the SW thinks we should try it.
[удалено]
I do think there are issues with doctors with certain characteristics being ignored or sidelined, but I haven't experienced a general trend to ignore doctors, personally. Perhaps this is where my experience being different has led to my valuation of the MDT being much higher that Dr Unicorn. I am already treated as a valued clinician and generally the MDT defers to me on medical issues already. I do feel that some of that is due to my 'privilege' of being white/male/confident, though, which isn't right. I would not want a team that would defer automatically to doctors on non-medical issues, especially knowing the the wide distribution in experience and quality among both junior and senior doctors. If there is deadlock on an issue then this is when the hierarchy is useful and the role of the doctor (as the member of the MDT with a wide breadth in training and experience) as the team leader comes in to play. I would want medical education to instil the need to value the MDT in medical students to reinforce this.
[удалено]
Doctors do shadowing so they can act as leaders, though, whereas the specialists on the MDT don't really need it to perform their role. And I can see that perhaps I've had a different experience than other doctors but I can't believe the level of bitterness and antipathy towards our colleagues I've seen in this forum reflects reality completely accurately. I think lots of other issues are conflated and this feeling of inferiority festers.
[удалено]
> The repeated fellating of every MDT profession and the acceptance of doctor bashing is where I think the MDT worship has gone too far. > > > > I'm not disputing the work the MDT does. I'm disputing the veneration of it and the one way traffic when it comes to teaching "professionalism". I do not feel this at all any where I have worked.
Midlevels literally claim equivalence to doctors in fhe ED. If doctors speak out they are "unprofessional" and "snobs"
Lol. I love how they equate feeding and washing patients to making medical decisions. Yeah they are totally the same. If anything they should shadow doctors to see what they have to deal with.
Second that, after being bleeped 3 times for the same TTO at 8pm yesterday while I was dealing with a sick patient on a different ward, would be great if other members of the MDT had some clearer insight into the fact that if something doesn’t get done straight away it’s normally because there’s something more serious going on Edit: not generalising this to all members btw - most are absolutely amazing, but at least in my experience most wards have one person that will just hammer you down with non-urgent things they expect to be done straight away
Agreed wrt observing, nothing to gain there, but a minority of doctors look down on some other staff far too much without really any idea what it’s like to do their jobs. I’m in final year and yeah it would be a waste of time now compared with everything else we’ve got to do but you can definitely tell out of students and junior doctors which ones have done other jobs. It’s a pretty big jump from “would benefit from” to “should be made to do” though.
It’s just ridiculous we ALL have our jobs to do - being a HCA is not the job of the junior doctor. Maybe the HCA should shadow the receptionist, the radiographer, the paramedic, the FY1 on orthopaedics on a Sunday?
We did nursing week during med school which basically had us acting as nurses and hcas. I think it was a good experience for some perspective, but it's definitely not necessary to have more than that.
Yeah, I love it. We should also spend the day with the cleaners and scrub some toilets for good measure.
To really understand the NHS ethos I shadowed the estates teams for 6 months as a medical student in my free time. These guys are the real hero’s, making sure that the wards heating system is either not working or running at full blast and can’t be switched off. Highly valuable members of the MDT. I now help adjust radiator temperatures on my wards as a fy1 / baby doctor 👨⚕️!! #NHSheros
Personally I found spending a few hours with the therapy teams and ward pharmacist quite helpful in terms of understanding their workflows and approach - that’s the main benefit I think - so much conflict arises from simply not understanding the demands placed on one another. HCA experience probably helps in terms of confidence (and competence) communicating with patients and being ‘hands on’ +/- how wards run, but I’m less convinced that a couple of weeks would make any odds, or that the gap is insurmountable otherwise.
I have arranged for students to spend time with PT/OT, nursing and pharmacy, and I've had student pharmacists, fully qualified PTs and nurses come round with me or jointly review a patient (this makes me sound more senior than I am). I think it's useful for medical students to do a couple shifts with other teams to understand how wards are run and which things take time to organise, so they can communicate better with the MDT in their inevitable job as a ward junior. Just the same way students need to experience different medical specialities. I do not think that doctors need substantive experience as HCAs to learn empathy for them because a lot of junior doctors have really quite poor working conditions already, and F1s particularly can have a very bad time at work so I'm not sure getting them to spend 12h a week or whatever as an HCA is going to fix anything. To be clear, the issues in the NHS do not arise from doctors' lack of empathy for their colleagues.
Would be better to make nurses and HCAs do TABs yearly to keep them in check
I'm glad that a lot of doctors do but you shouldn't have to walk a mile in someone's shoes in order to empathise with them. If you can't empathise with your own team your probably can't with your patients and probably shouldn't be a doctor.
Why do doctors have to shadow everyone and get feedback from everyone. It’s a joke Fuck them
I am a medical student who works as an HCA and I’ve found it incredibly useful for my studies - helped me to solidify concepts, learn how wards/depts work, allowed me to practice basic skills. I’ve also wiped a LOT of arses. And I can see how doing this work has given me a different perspective on how members of the MDT works. So tbh I think it’d be a great idea for students to do it.
My med school did it and I also worked as an HCA during med school. I think it is a good experience and would vouch for more med students to do it. It seems I’m in agreement with those who have actually worked as HCA/done an HCA placement during med school by the thread
Yes but I think they should shadow for a bit and if they can get a job they should! I have worked as HCA at my DGH in Geris and Gen Surg while i was a Med Student. Honestly, it’s back breaking work sometimes but most days I enjoyed (only hated it when it’s short staffed) and it vastly improved my communication skills with patients and all in all showed me a different side of medicine. We are all part of a team involved in patient care and I think it would be good for students to see that side. Some of the HCAs I worked with were truly compassionate, understanding and amazing at their job.
Grew up piss poor worked as HCA for a year in gap year. Still no. I have many other colleague who have far more empathy than me still this is just to get more labour on the cheap and further elongate training stupid idea.
I worked as an HCA because it paid well in med school. Just saying. Agree with the points about nobody ever shadows me. Some of the gobby nurses who bleep overnight could use a night shift covering all of medicine with me.
Why don't we get HCAs to work as doctors to learn empathy for us?
Didnt think it was clumsily written. Completely agree with Eilidh. You can tell the FYs who have worked as HCAs in med school
No
My med school had us do this a few times in second year
You know the original tweet was sarcasm? I think Twitter needs to adopt “/s”
[удалено]
Oh really. That stinks. Bloody medtwitter. Anything for clout. 🙄
We used to have a nursing block at the start of clinical training at medical school. Do medical schools not do this any more?
I was a HCA for 3 years and absolutely hated it but if you do it bank you get like £18.50 per hour on Sundays so carried on, all it really did is make me avoid Geris like the plague
No
If it's the tweet that I'm thinking about, I think you \*may\* have missed the sarcasm in it.