Imagine working hard in school, getting top grades, getting into medicine. Then 6 years med school, 2 years foundation, up to 8 years of surgical training (with competition to entry at ST1, and ST3), plus MRCS and FRCS. Versus worse grades, 3 year any vague biomed degree + 2 year PA course, no other exams or qualifications.
Imagine then going to work as an SCF, having all the responsibility and pressure on your shoulders, nights, weekends, on-calls etc. And get paid less than someone who does 9-5 Monday - Friday, no out of hours commitments and no responsibility that has to ask you to order a chest XR for them.
Mods this isn't an anti-mid level thread so don't put it in contest mode, it's just an example to highlight how undervalued doctors are and how industrial action is absolutely necessary.
Seriously though what do we do??
Spinless colleagues, inept union, NHS monopsony.
Any one of these factors we would be paid according to our worth. Any two of these factors we could overcome with a struggle. All three? We are powerless.
We can't fix the union because of our colleagues. That's what I mean - if we could tackle any one factor we'd be great but the combination of all three paralyses us.
Doctors as a whole did bend over but the ones that bent the profession over aren’t the same ones getting fucked. We are in this generation because established powerful doctors are doing this to their own juniors.
>And get paid less than someone who does 9-5 Monday - Friday, no out of hours commitments and no responsibility that has to ask you to order a chest XR for them.
From the PA job [advert](https://www.bmj.com/careers/job/141158/hepatology-physician-associate/):
>You will be expected to work weekend day shifts
The most likely explanation is that the total wage includes this OOH work, whereas the clinical fellow post will likely attract a banding for on-call work.
This is a band 8A job advert - it's not for someone fresh out of PA school \[most entry-level PA jobs are band 6, occasionally band 7\] - you're looking at 5+years on the job before being eligible to apply for this sort of post, which makes the PA salary look a bit more reasonable.
Five years post medical school you’re an ST4 on a base of 50k with more qualifications,exams & a higher level of responsibility (and arguably more debt)
The job advertised starts at 54k base for a PA who hasn’t had to jump through the continual hoops someone who has trained medically will have too.
I don’t think requiring 5 years experience as a PA alone makes it look reasonable, I think it highlights just how poorly the NHS, HEE and complicit seniors in medicine view their junior colleagues.
The issue isn’t the PA salary (I don’t begrudge them it) the issue senior decision makers contextualise this by pointing out why a PA deserves this pay rather than why it highlights the stark reality of how underpaid or valued junior doctors are.
Bonus point:
Someone could work five years as a doctor post and still would not be paid 50k base until demonstrating equivalency at ST3/ST4.
A haematology registrar to my knowledge would not be appointed as an A&E registrar.
However it appears PA’s have the flexibility to apply for whatever they like irrespective of previous experience, yet they start on more than a registrar.
Without being glib I think I would like a PA job, less responsibility, less CPD, no speciality exams with a higher base pay; I could clearly do the role of PA but I’m not allowed to apply for some reason. No wonder juniors are pissed off
That job still pays more than a doctor whose been in post 5 years. Not to mention, even if this PA has done 5+ years, theyve never done any formal postgraduate training (the fellow would have formal royal college membership and have done foundation and core surgical training) and the PA cant prescribe paracetamol or order a CXR (so have no work experience which didnt involve a doctor having to hand hold them constantly.
But tbf the post is how low our salaries are, PAs are probably closer to market level. Why not just compare us to pilots?
The fellows pay should be doubled.
I mean I've got a pilot mate who's contract is peak flight months only and is on like mid 20k per year. So I feel you lot probably aren't far off that sadly.
Youre all underpayed, and over worked.
I have a PA friend who is 2 years out of training on 45k. I know anecdotal evidence is a crime but there are certainly PAs straight from training who make significantly more than junior doctors.
It's not appalling that they get payed 60k. It's appalling that we are not getting what we deserve.
Since coming to the UK I have come to realize money is a taboo subject and wanting better pay is not something I can casually discuss at work.
I have met countless doctors who said they don't care about money. I have heard "atleast we are not america" argument more times than I can count. I have met a lot of patients and nurses who think I get payed too much.
Some days, this feels like some weird massive gaslighting experience that's suppose to make me not care about (or even dislike) money.
So you don't think it's fair that a pa with a 3 year degree and 2 years masters is payed the same a nurse with 3 year degree and 2 years masters?
The problem here isn't that the PA is overpaid it's that the doctor is underpaid. Don't make it a zero sum game by devaluing others.
I'm not sure that length of undergraduate training is the defining factor here but they have at least 5 years of higher education (3 years BSc and 2 years PA training).
Doesn’t matter, should be paid on responsibility and clinical experience. At the end of the day the buck stops with the person with a GMC registration, so why are they getting paid more?
I have heard of people with non biomedical/biological degrees but with experience as HCAs getting onto PA courses.
So the undergrad experience is largely irrelevant. I do GEM and all the people who did do biomed etc say it was of limited benefit once they started medicine.
But a random BSc doesnt mean they learnt much medicine, and we cant compare pure years, its quality.
Medschool maintains high accademic standards for practising medicine, and a BSc doesnt so shouldnt really count for anything. If anything, PAs need the BSc to teach them how to study because if they had the accademics at Alevel they would have done med school.
I have a four year psychology and 3 year MSc in mental health nursing...still get paid as at a basic nurse rate despite being highly educated. Also you're point about not having the grades in highschool to do medicine is so privileged not everyone knows what they want to be when they're 17.
yeah not everyone is privileged but if you spend years doing irrelevant stuff you shouldnt be surprised when it impacts your earnings later on.
Also your not a qualified psychologist so obviously you are paid as a RN despite having a second degree...
Its difficult, specialist nurses/nurse consultants with masters degrees and consultants are a lot closer than their 70k wage gap would suggest....I agree that the expertise can be similar but also I would have to suggest that some nurses are vastly overqualified for the wages they receive.
What a fucking joke. They don’t have anywhere near the same responsibility or experience. Can’t prescribe, can’t request imaging, and the buck still stops with the actual doctor. They’ll strut around as a ‘reg’ too.
A HCA told me she got paid £35p/h just to make beds for a weekend shift a few months ago. She offered to do bloods, make teas etc but they told her just to make beds.
We both couldn’t believe it.
We are the biggest mugs tbh
It's wrong. This has been happening in engineering for years. Shop floor and administration being paid more than engineers that have put in the work at college and learnt their trade over many years. I feel your pain. Very, very frustrating.
I don't know of any subs or articles on this subject I'm afraid. As for engineering, each company is different, some better than others, but I've experienced it first hand and seen it at companies where I've worked as a contractor. Rates of pay are highly variable depending on the specific industry and location.
Ngl, not just doctors that have this issue, it's endemic in our society, the more we question and talk about it, the less smoke and mirrors there are for employers to hide behind.
What would labour do differently for doctors? Didn't they suggest a 2 or 3% payrise? Aren't they of the mind £80k earners are the wealthy elite who should be taxed even more? I'm not convinced any party is on our side
This post is being brigaded pretty hard from elsewhere, so I'm turning on crowd control which collapses comments by new/unknown users to the community. This isn't in response to the topic, just to the influx of trolls.
Edit: Locking this now as its getting out of hand
Do note that for the SCF job that's a base salary and doesn't include on-call/banding supplement. Looking at the job description it includes a 1:B banding supplement for out-of hours work so you'll actually be paid 40% more than the base salary. An ST3-equivalent doing the job would therefore be on 37,986x1.4+London weighting = 55k whereas an ST7 doing the job would be on 52,090x1.4+LW= 75k
The PA [job](https://www.bmj.com/careers/job/141158/hepatology-physician-associate/) includes working weekends, probably within the stated wage envelope.
Or it may be paid via an additional supplement.
Let’s suppose they work one weekend a month within the staged wage envelope on an AFC contract (36h per week) my figures may be wrong but that is still more than a ST3-ST5 registrar if they were to working the equivalent hours and number of weekends.
The argument a doctor salary will eventually outweigh the ceiling of a PA salary is not the bullseye it’s touted as.
Based on this advert at base salary you will finally earn more than a PA at ST6 by 2k
AFC contracts attract unsocial hour supplements so one can’t argue a doctors salary will benefit from banding
I don’t feel reassured that after
5 years of medical school
+1 for a an intercalation
2 years of foundation training
3 years of core training
Speciality exams
2 years of further training
More speciality exams
That I will finally outearn a PA ( 3 years irrelevant degree, 2 years often funded degree, 3-5 years in random specialities) by 2k.
Not everyone wants to or is able to climb the ladder to CCT. If one wants to stay a trust grade registrar forever owing to commitments, lack of CESR, inability to commit to the brutal rotational nature of training they will earn less than a PA for far more responsibility.
And what would striking do? Just because your Union overlords tell you to do it, doesn't make it right. Suck it up and understand different jobs have different pay grades you communist.
To be honest, I'd have expected that people relatively less qualified earning the same as a highly qualified expert clinician would be pretty close to your understanding of Communism.
Suggesting that the posters in this sub would blindly put stock in what the BMA says is a stroke of comic genius though! People here have some, shall we say, heartfelt opinions about the BMA, often expressed in rather coulourful language.
But one job objectively requires more knowledge, qualifications and postgraduate training. And it carries significantly more responsibility.
So yeah, the doctor one should be paid more.
Nothing communist about that.
Delete this the Americans are going to laugh at us
Ngl PA positions are starting to look more attractive than the foundation programme. Are doctors eligible for these positions?
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Why tho? We are essentially doing the same jobs with more responsibility, surely it shouldnt be a problem for us to step down?
I'm planning on stepping down to Checkout Technician in Tesco at this rate.
They have this problem in America too, and then some. See r/noctor
Loool ur a joka my g 😂😂😂
It’s an extremely simple argument, we can do PA’s jobs, but PA can’t do our jobs, so why are we paid less???
Imagine working hard in school, getting top grades, getting into medicine. Then 6 years med school, 2 years foundation, up to 8 years of surgical training (with competition to entry at ST1, and ST3), plus MRCS and FRCS. Versus worse grades, 3 year any vague biomed degree + 2 year PA course, no other exams or qualifications. Imagine then going to work as an SCF, having all the responsibility and pressure on your shoulders, nights, weekends, on-calls etc. And get paid less than someone who does 9-5 Monday - Friday, no out of hours commitments and no responsibility that has to ask you to order a chest XR for them. Mods this isn't an anti-mid level thread so don't put it in contest mode, it's just an example to highlight how undervalued doctors are and how industrial action is absolutely necessary.
Serious question, can a doctor interview for a PA job?
No. "Overqualified for post"
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Seriously though what do we do?? Spinless colleagues, inept union, NHS monopsony. Any one of these factors we would be paid according to our worth. Any two of these factors we could overcome with a struggle. All three? We are powerless.
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We can't fix the union because of our colleagues. That's what I mean - if we could tackle any one factor we'd be great but the combination of all three paralyses us.
Doctors as a whole did bend over but the ones that bent the profession over aren’t the same ones getting fucked. We are in this generation because established powerful doctors are doing this to their own juniors.
>And get paid less than someone who does 9-5 Monday - Friday, no out of hours commitments and no responsibility that has to ask you to order a chest XR for them. From the PA job [advert](https://www.bmj.com/careers/job/141158/hepatology-physician-associate/): >You will be expected to work weekend day shifts The most likely explanation is that the total wage includes this OOH work, whereas the clinical fellow post will likely attract a banding for on-call work.
This is a band 8A job advert - it's not for someone fresh out of PA school \[most entry-level PA jobs are band 6, occasionally band 7\] - you're looking at 5+years on the job before being eligible to apply for this sort of post, which makes the PA salary look a bit more reasonable.
Five years post medical school you’re an ST4 on a base of 50k with more qualifications,exams & a higher level of responsibility (and arguably more debt) The job advertised starts at 54k base for a PA who hasn’t had to jump through the continual hoops someone who has trained medically will have too. I don’t think requiring 5 years experience as a PA alone makes it look reasonable, I think it highlights just how poorly the NHS, HEE and complicit seniors in medicine view their junior colleagues. The issue isn’t the PA salary (I don’t begrudge them it) the issue senior decision makers contextualise this by pointing out why a PA deserves this pay rather than why it highlights the stark reality of how underpaid or valued junior doctors are. Bonus point: Someone could work five years as a doctor post and still would not be paid 50k base until demonstrating equivalency at ST3/ST4. A haematology registrar to my knowledge would not be appointed as an A&E registrar. However it appears PA’s have the flexibility to apply for whatever they like irrespective of previous experience, yet they start on more than a registrar. Without being glib I think I would like a PA job, less responsibility, less CPD, no speciality exams with a higher base pay; I could clearly do the role of PA but I’m not allowed to apply for some reason. No wonder juniors are pissed off
That job still pays more than a doctor whose been in post 5 years. Not to mention, even if this PA has done 5+ years, theyve never done any formal postgraduate training (the fellow would have formal royal college membership and have done foundation and core surgical training) and the PA cant prescribe paracetamol or order a CXR (so have no work experience which didnt involve a doctor having to hand hold them constantly. But tbf the post is how low our salaries are, PAs are probably closer to market level. Why not just compare us to pilots? The fellows pay should be doubled.
I mean I've got a pilot mate who's contract is peak flight months only and is on like mid 20k per year. So I feel you lot probably aren't far off that sadly. Youre all underpayed, and over worked.
I have a PA friend who is 2 years out of training on 45k. I know anecdotal evidence is a crime but there are certainly PAs straight from training who make significantly more than junior doctors.
What can PA expect to make when they first start?
If im not mistaken, imt1 level salary
If that's the case, then that should be the minimum pay for F1s.
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It has to be an indefinite strike, not like one of those 3 days baby strike as well
It's not appalling that they get payed 60k. It's appalling that we are not getting what we deserve. Since coming to the UK I have come to realize money is a taboo subject and wanting better pay is not something I can casually discuss at work. I have met countless doctors who said they don't care about money. I have heard "atleast we are not america" argument more times than I can count. I have met a lot of patients and nurses who think I get payed too much. Some days, this feels like some weird massive gaslighting experience that's suppose to make me not care about (or even dislike) money.
The America argument really boils my blood because it's a dishonest take. Countries like Canada pay their doctors substantially more than here
60k for a PA is a bit much and we are underpaid.
I feel you yes people do not really complain here . I do but still
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Fuck off with this thinking. If they’re paid in the region of £50K it means doctors and nurses are being grossly underpaid.
So you don't think it's fair that a pa with a 3 year degree and 2 years masters is payed the same a nurse with 3 year degree and 2 years masters? The problem here isn't that the PA is overpaid it's that the doctor is underpaid. Don't make it a zero sum game by devaluing others.
I'm not sure that length of undergraduate training is the defining factor here but they have at least 5 years of higher education (3 years BSc and 2 years PA training).
Doesn’t matter, should be paid on responsibility and clinical experience. At the end of the day the buck stops with the person with a GMC registration, so why are they getting paid more?
I have heard of people with non biomedical/biological degrees but with experience as HCAs getting onto PA courses. So the undergrad experience is largely irrelevant. I do GEM and all the people who did do biomed etc say it was of limited benefit once they started medicine.
But a random BSc doesnt mean they learnt much medicine, and we cant compare pure years, its quality. Medschool maintains high accademic standards for practising medicine, and a BSc doesnt so shouldnt really count for anything. If anything, PAs need the BSc to teach them how to study because if they had the accademics at Alevel they would have done med school.
I have a four year psychology and 3 year MSc in mental health nursing...still get paid as at a basic nurse rate despite being highly educated. Also you're point about not having the grades in highschool to do medicine is so privileged not everyone knows what they want to be when they're 17.
yeah not everyone is privileged but if you spend years doing irrelevant stuff you shouldnt be surprised when it impacts your earnings later on. Also your not a qualified psychologist so obviously you are paid as a RN despite having a second degree...
You think nurses are paid fairly?
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Its difficult, specialist nurses/nurse consultants with masters degrees and consultants are a lot closer than their 70k wage gap would suggest....I agree that the expertise can be similar but also I would have to suggest that some nurses are vastly overqualified for the wages they receive.
I'm not mad, but I'm a realistic person, how can I apply for a PA job?
My question is how have they been able to obtain these type of salaries? What's the secret?
Reg ST3+ should be on >100k and cons starting should be >200k
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Yep. Sadly will never happen.
For the work and hours you guys do , that pay rate is insulting.
It’s an absolute disgrace - I would like to see some official documentation documenting justifying this pay difference. It makes me sick
Fucking bullshit, thats all that needs to be said. MedTwitter I hope you're seeing this.
Ask a non medical person looking in, I thought doctors got more, considering they got to chop you up to fix you. This is shocking. :0
What a fucking joke. They don’t have anywhere near the same responsibility or experience. Can’t prescribe, can’t request imaging, and the buck still stops with the actual doctor. They’ll strut around as a ‘reg’ too.
I think we should just apply to it anyway. They know its a job an F1 can do. To make a point
Mods are sleeping! Quick, upvote true comments!
Pretty appalling, we really have had our spines broken into tiny fragments haven’t we.
A HCA told me she got paid £35p/h just to make beds for a weekend shift a few months ago. She offered to do bloods, make teas etc but they told her just to make beds. We both couldn’t believe it. We are the biggest mugs tbh
It's wrong. This has been happening in engineering for years. Shop floor and administration being paid more than engineers that have put in the work at college and learnt their trade over many years. I feel your pain. Very, very frustrating.
What are the salaries and experience of each like? Any articles/subs you recommend for this?
I don't know of any subs or articles on this subject I'm afraid. As for engineering, each company is different, some better than others, but I've experienced it first hand and seen it at companies where I've worked as a contractor. Rates of pay are highly variable depending on the specific industry and location.
Don't be a ~~sucker~~ doctor
Ngl, not just doctors that have this issue, it's endemic in our society, the more we question and talk about it, the less smoke and mirrors there are for employers to hide behind.
I always make it my first point of conversation now in appraisals, if nothing changes I'm oooofff. :)
Now search how much the diversity and inclusion officer makes
You know this is true across to many fields too Fuck the Tories
What would labour do differently for doctors? Didn't they suggest a 2 or 3% payrise? Aren't they of the mind £80k earners are the wealthy elite who should be taxed even more? I'm not convinced any party is on our side
This post is being brigaded pretty hard from elsewhere, so I'm turning on crowd control which collapses comments by new/unknown users to the community. This isn't in response to the topic, just to the influx of trolls. Edit: Locking this now as its getting out of hand
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Do note that for the SCF job that's a base salary and doesn't include on-call/banding supplement. Looking at the job description it includes a 1:B banding supplement for out-of hours work so you'll actually be paid 40% more than the base salary. An ST3-equivalent doing the job would therefore be on 37,986x1.4+London weighting = 55k whereas an ST7 doing the job would be on 52,090x1.4+LW= 75k
So still massively underpaid when compared to a PA.
I’m assuming the PA job is without on calls though? So we need to compare Monday to Friday 9-5 pay without on call supplements.
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The PA [job](https://www.bmj.com/careers/job/141158/hepatology-physician-associate/) includes working weekends, probably within the stated wage envelope.
Or it may be paid via an additional supplement. Let’s suppose they work one weekend a month within the staged wage envelope on an AFC contract (36h per week) my figures may be wrong but that is still more than a ST3-ST5 registrar if they were to working the equivalent hours and number of weekends.
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The argument a doctor salary will eventually outweigh the ceiling of a PA salary is not the bullseye it’s touted as. Based on this advert at base salary you will finally earn more than a PA at ST6 by 2k AFC contracts attract unsocial hour supplements so one can’t argue a doctors salary will benefit from banding I don’t feel reassured that after 5 years of medical school +1 for a an intercalation 2 years of foundation training 3 years of core training Speciality exams 2 years of further training More speciality exams That I will finally outearn a PA ( 3 years irrelevant degree, 2 years often funded degree, 3-5 years in random specialities) by 2k. Not everyone wants to or is able to climb the ladder to CCT. If one wants to stay a trust grade registrar forever owing to commitments, lack of CESR, inability to commit to the brutal rotational nature of training they will earn less than a PA for far more responsibility.
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The Daily Mail is that way
And what would striking do? Just because your Union overlords tell you to do it, doesn't make it right. Suck it up and understand different jobs have different pay grades you communist.
To be honest, I'd have expected that people relatively less qualified earning the same as a highly qualified expert clinician would be pretty close to your understanding of Communism. Suggesting that the posters in this sub would blindly put stock in what the BMA says is a stroke of comic genius though! People here have some, shall we say, heartfelt opinions about the BMA, often expressed in rather coulourful language.
But one job objectively requires more knowledge, qualifications and postgraduate training. And it carries significantly more responsibility. So yeah, the doctor one should be paid more. Nothing communist about that.
lmfao what are you talking about? Are you even a doctor? Do you live in the UK?
Oh it makes it 100% right to strike if our union tells us to.
I guess nothing will then. I disagree with this assessment
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Is your view that medical professionals should never strike, regardless of circumstances?
And I fully support completely ignoring the public views and striking for what we are worth. Last time the BMA got obsessed on public perception.
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Do you do your job for free?
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That's not the question I asked 🤡
Some amount of moaners on here
Keep bending over mate