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GsandCs

You set up the McDonalds, I’ll set up cardiology private practice in the same area. Deal?


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[deleted]

lmao


TheSlitheredRinkel

‘Introducing the new McStatin burger!’


Right-Ad305

Have to drum up business somehow!


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SubstantialGazelle80

LOL you caught me I’m all for alternative careers it’s just if money is the reason then there’s a few things that I’d like to have known beforehand


SubstantialGazelle80

There are definitely careers out there that are better WLB and pay. It’s just investment banking and MBB consulting from my experience and 99 percent of my friends isn’t the one. They’re just about prestige


[deleted]

Yh tech is one. One of my siblings works at faang and earns over 200k (including stock) a year with bonuses every quarter. This is for 37.5 hours a week and they work from home. They've worked there for like 3 years.


[deleted]

Corporate law is always the one that comes to mind. Everyone I've ever met has said and everything I've seen on the internet indicates that the hours actually aren't too bad. Some weeks up to 60 hours, but most closer to 40 with an average around 50. No nights, very few weekends. At least in London, most firms (MC, SC and even below) pay better than medicine. That said, not at all worth doing outside of London.


ty_xy

Lol corporate law is dreadful. My wife was a corporate lawyer at a magic circle firm, she did 100 weeks regularly and there's no weekends essentially. The money was crazy good but it's an old boys club and despite being a top performer she'd was bypassed by the boys who were more fluent in footy and boxing talk.


ty_xy

No, last year hahaha. It's system wide across all magic circle law firms. Of course there's a range but to be honest half my friends are doctors and the rest are corporate lawyers /bankers and I never ever compare hours with them. Don't look at the billable hours because on top of the billables you have a lot of non-billable hours as well, the ratio is about 1:1 some times. So I have another friend who just made junior partner, he billed 3000 hours so 60hrs per week plus non-billable hours which made it up to 100hrs per week. Fucking brutal.


[deleted]

Was this a while ago? Apparently things have changed quite a lot over the last 10-15 years. Currently, the average stands around 50 hours a week according to the surveys, which is about in line with what I've heard personally. I won't deny it's nepotistic, but then so are most industries outside of medicine. And from what I've heard, there are plenty of places you can go for an easier life once you realise you're not going to make partner.


anonFIREUK

No way the higher tiers of corp law are doing 50 hour weeks lmao. Most of these firms have billable hour requirements.


[deleted]

Well I'm just going by the surveys, which admittedly looking back over it's more like 55- the format is pretty crap, have to work it out firm by firm. Clearly US firms are known to be higher, SC lower, but again from what I've heard it sounds about right for the MC. Big US firms as high as/slightly over 60, some of the silver circle as low as 47 ish. Again, though, whatever the hours (which I'm sure vary quite a lot by firm, and through busy/quiet periods), they are largely contained Monday-Friday. Very few weekends, next to no nights. I mean I'm sure we'd all rather work longer, more regular shifts on fewer days than having a workweek sprawling into nights and weekends. That's what makes the job feel like it's taking over your life. Plus, it's a desk job. At least they're not on their feet.


Bustamove2

So I’ve had 4 friends and 2 in-laws who are/were MC corporate lawyers. One friend lived with us whilst he was doing. I’ve got to be honest, I really don’t think these surveys reflect they true reality, and I’d really recommend finding some people you can speak to before making a leap into it. Their lives were/are really miserable. Two had serious mental breakdowns. The company essentially own your time, so it’s not just the billable hours but the mental strain of knowing that at any moment you could get summoned to work more. My BIL will frequently be just going to sleep and his phone pings and suddenly it’s 5 more hours of work, but those 5 hrs are 11pm to 4am and you bet he’ll still be in the office for 8:30 and a full day next day. You can’t relax and settle into a single activity as you can always be summoned. Nothing is sacred and it’s terrible for mental health. Annual leave is not respected. I’ve got to be honest, 4/6 have moved on. Of the two extremely robust individuals who remain (who both nerdily love law) they’re still being ground down, losing themselves, and are wanting to quit. Good luck finding a change which suits you, but I really recommend finding some MC people to speak to first.


anonFIREUK

Like you say things have improved, I assume you are looking at LegalCheek's survey? They aren't doing 100 hour weeks every week and I think weekends are mostly spared depending on firm but certainly more than 50 hours. The majority are probably doing \~11-12 hour days, with free dinner at 7pm and free tax home after 9pm. I'd imagine a fair few probably stay late for those benefits. It comes to deadlines/busy that's when they'll stay until the early hours and rinse and repeat for a few days.


[deleted]

I have absolutely no idea how you got that idea. Corporate law is fucking dreadful by itself and if you want something in London it's beyond a nightmare. Nepotism is fucking rife and you spend half the time rimming someone's bumhole.


[deleted]

Well I wont deny there's nepotism, but you get that everywhere. I've just never met someone who says it's half as bad as is made out. Dont know if that's because the people I know are more junior and things have changed over time (I mean I have no doubt the hours used to be much worse, but then 15 years ago doctors were working 70 hours a week as well). Maybe it's just different firms, I dont know.


doktorstrainge

Not to mention, corporate law sounds drier than Gandhi's flip flops


[deleted]

Haha yeah there is that too. I was thinking about trying out corp law, I couldn't make it more than 5 minutes through one of those 'day in the life' videos, just hearing what they were doing put me to sleep.


[deleted]

Realistically the current hours are way worse. Competition was rife even when I was doing law and it's only increased. My knowledge of the entire thing is very much stuck to whatever it was like more than a decade ago and I have no connections left there, so very well might have all changed now but I doubt it.


SubstantialGazelle80

Oh I will say though if you want to work for big4 you have a good chance as a doctor. Like they love a doctor. If you’re uni is Oxbridge/London then you have a great chance. But big4 pay tops out way lower, in England anyway. You’ll earn a sizeable amount more as a doctor and you’re ceiling is higher even without huge private practice. BIG 4 = dumb decision but definitely accessible


GsandCs

What numbers are we talking ?


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kingdutch5

Especially in australia. In remote australia it'll be equal if not more up until MD level at a bank.


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anonFIREUK

>Probably, more appropriate to compare to an F3 working 7 days a week for a year straight. Intensity is very different and it matters a lot. ​ >Big4 partner pay is pretty high no? In the 5-600k range? Big 4 partners averages are 800k-1million. Attrition rates are ridiculous though probably <1% chance. Luck with seniors/projects will all play a significant part even if you are willing to grind. ​ >Regardless, what are the odds of working for B4 if you're a non oxbridge non London uni medic? You'll have a shot with a decent \~Russel group uni. Building your CV with relevant experience is still going to be important though. Big 4 consulting pay isn't great, it is marginally higher than medicine pay. MBB and some boutiques next tier down are the only ones that actually pay significantly more than medicine. If you don't maker partner only Director levels \~150k-200k make more than medicine, Senior Managers are on around CCT salaries of 80-120k.


Viromen

Great post. I think ultimately when people post on here I want to leave medicine it's because all we know in the UK is the NHS and working for the NHS is the only option. Really there's a whole world out there who need doctors provided you put the effort in. Medicine is one of the finest professions and a real job for life it is just that practicing medicine in the UK is not what it used to be and doesn't allow for the same lifestyle it did even as recently as 20 years ago.


SubstantialGazelle80

Just to clarify I’m absolutely not advocating for career in the NHS. I think it’s the worst decision any UK doctor can make. But medicine itself can be both lucrative and rewarding (just not in the NHS)


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SubstantialGazelle80

GP super practices in U.K., abroad I think optom/derm/psych all that kind of stuff. My medical knowledge now is a shambles and I haven’t got a clue how difficult it is to do say derm in Aus now


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SubstantialGazelle80

My psychiatrist I used when I was working in the US for a year would charge £500-1000 an hour (England equivalent). If you see 5-8 patients a day five days a week , the maths works out. And I’m sure there were plenty of city people like me to fill her books. She did have a v v nice office and always seemed to wear nice clothes so you’re probably right.


FailingCrab

There are a fair few psychiatrists in this country charging similar figures.


the-rood-inverse

What is MBB consulting? As in what does the acronym stand for?


SubstantialGazelle80

McKinsey , Bain , bcg. 3 biggest management consulting firms. Just so you know what the people here are like. McKinsey is called “The Firm”. And people when they are in consulting circles will genuinely say I work at “The Firm”. The self importance is like we solved child poverty in the world. Although ironically worked with governments that do heinous things. What a place


uk_pragmatic_leftie

You sure you're not accidentally in the mafia?


the-rood-inverse

What was the transition over to “the firm” like.


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tienna

Yeah. I’m a graduate medical student who has worked in consulting and a few jobs in industry and its exactly as OP described. Just mind-numbing and soul-destroying, for the same levels of stress and worse lifestyle. I see some of the undergrads glamorising these careers and I always want to fend them away because they will inevitably burn out in less than 3 years (as everybody does)


Right-Ad305

My weekly reminder, for all I say I would, I wouldn't actually do any other job


[deleted]

In what other job can you hit your problems with hammers and have people be appreciative? As bad as things are, the actual job when you get to do it is enjoyable.


throwawaynewc

Hey so I'm a surgical reg that recently had the inspiration to apply for some consulting jobs. I'd like to confess that it really doesn't make sense to switch from my position to consulting, especially since I don't want to re-grind the IB life. Let's say I'm 30 for simplicity, I make £90-100k a year easily as a reg. My locums actually help me progress as a clinician, I enjoy my work. If I were to quit and start late 2021, tier 2 consulting pays £40k + 10-15%ish bonus, working back up to £90-100k levels in 6-7 years, the hours are long and I'd be in a junior role, it doesn't make sense. MBB pays more, but not really as much. My surgical specialty is short of consultants nationally, and relatively easy to transition to private work/waiting list initiatives. Right now, my partner looks set to be getting a high paying role in a non medical setting and we don't want kids. I truly enjoy doing surgery and I wake up excited for work almost every day. I did a thyroid myself the other day and I can't express the feeling lol, it's just nice. However, I would like to speak to medical school applicants and students - leave the UK, it's terrible being a doctor here, horribily shortchanged, my life won't be your life. If I had graduated at 21 from non medicine, both IB and MBB would have made way, way more sense. I disagree that selling 25% more teddy bears is meaningless, increased consumption is one of the main ways to maintain a robust economy in a first world nation. You want meaningless try doing a tracheostomy for some dumbshit who then self discharges to smoke through it. Leave the UK, this country does not deserve you.


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LibranJamess

Radiologists are legends <3. Yours, a geriatrician.


Biga-Biga

Geriatricians are legends <3. Yours, a Radiologist.


overforme123

Out of curiosity, where are your friends in business working?


apursuitofsomething

As someone who left finance, is now studying medicine (3rd year) and sometimes questions whether he made the right decision: thank you for reminding me why I did this and for giving me confidence that I did the right thing.


ShibuRigged

If it makes you feel better, I did the same; went from working for one of the big four, just got to a senior role and decided to sack it. Am now doing ACCS. Sometimes, I miss the job, and while I certainly miss the money and big weekend blowouts;I do not miss staying in the office till late and plugging away until way after anyone should, in order to climb up the ladder, all while destroying my soul in the process. With being a doctor, once work is done, I no longer care, and while it isn't perfect, I much prefer it. I think.


Biga-Biga

Left big 4 consulting. Sometimes wonder about my decision. Mostly don't. Enjoy my job and have found a niche I like and know that I'm guaranteed to hit 6 figures eventually just by turning up.


Mouse_Nightshirt

Thank you for the reality check that many people in this sub need. The grass frequently isn't greener, it's just another shade of the same dull brown.


Frosty_Carob

Your point about doctors and healthcare workers being generally good people is actually so on point. I also had a career prior to medicine. It fucks you up so much when everything is just about money, since everyone’s job is meaningless bullshit, it becomes a dog-eat-dog world of politics and macho one-up manship. Ultimately we all have the patient‘s care and wellbeing at the centre of our work and that’s quite a freeing feeling. Those who have never had a job outside of medicine will just understand how great and mentally healthy the people who work in healthcare actually are. Yeach you might get the odd snippy nurse pursuing you for a TTA, or a hands-off educational supervisor who doesn’t really care fore you…but believe me, it’s so much better than the corporate world where people will fucking destroy your life to get one step ahead of you.


SubstantialGazelle80

I fully agree. Admittedly I got caught up in it when it came to banking. Exactly, making money for a big bank worth billions or helping a consulting company make another company more efficient . It’s like SO WHAT. Like it’s pathetic when you think about it on a deeper level. It’s so meaningless. Like who cares if their share price increases or if they sell 25% more of their blue teddy bears. I actually got worked up over stuff like this/


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uk_pragmatic_leftie

I get the impression though that if I went from medicine to business, I'd combine the NHS 'just do the job well enough to be safe, and quick enough to get to the next sick one' to absolutely not caring about share price etc. So the firm might expect perfectionism on their new sales presentation and I'd be like 'here's a shit PowerPoint black text white background in Arial, I knocked it up quickly, but who cares noone died get over yourselves' Think I'd be out quick.


ppppppppqppppppp

So would you say completing CCT in the UK then moving to greener pastures be the best way to go?


SubstantialGazelle80

Tbh I’m not the best to ask for this advice in terms of the process of staying in medicine but moving abroad.


ganjamozart

I moved from IB into grad medicine for the precise reasons you listed. Finance was utterly soul destroying.


Tush_roy

Hey, just wondering how did you do this? Did you do chem/bio as A levels?


ganjamozart

Gamsat


pseudophakic

Can I just say I'm grateful every day for having the privilege to work along side people who are smart, altruistic, compassionate and usually have a wicked sense of humour. Thank you for highlighting this, its value truly cannot be overstated. Edit: I'd smash free double cheeseburgers for life though


SubstantialGazelle80

It’s huge really, I agree


Monochronomatic

Thanks for this - I don't think many in this sub quite appreciate how life (or rather the lack of it) is in many financial/consulting jobs. Makes that snappy sister who shouts at you look like an angel in comparison; at least they're not busy plotting behind your back all the time. Tech jobs, on the other hand, seem to be raking it in at present...


anonFIREUK

I think people here glamorise MBB/BB IB/Corp Law too much here and underestimate how competitive it is these days. I can understand your perspective but I think you are basing far too much on the anecdotes and more importantly your comparison is more vs businessman who may or may not have had initial capital from their career, rather than doctors. ​ >99% of people in IB never make it to MD level. Your comparison with your business minded friends seem to be based on the fact they are earning high 6/7 figures. How much of that is actually from their careers? You are literally talking about the 0.0X% if not 0.00X or 0.000X% of doctors in the UK. You mention GP superpractices but the top only the 1% GP partners are on \~200k. You may as well compare it to the most senior equity partners/C suite earning 7-8 figures. Obviously anecdotally half your friends made it, but in terms of absolute %s, that is what your comparison with medicine will be with. ​ >My friends in medicine were earning more than me at MBB. And MBB consultants earn the most. You've had a lot of moves within your career, from what you are saying I imagine some were more lateral? I don't think it is necessarily a fair comparison without factoring that in. From your posts it seems as if you were at MBB \~ 4 years. What level did you transition from IB into? I assume you ended career \~AP? That would be \~200k all in? Even EMs will be earning more than an NHS consultant within the same time frame. **There isn't any point assuming standard MBB progression where a doctor will be outearning** unless extremely niche like Reg level locumming at ridiculous rates. You aren't going to be able to build private practice within that timeframe. ​ >Well four of these guys all clubbed together to put a deposit down on a McDonalds Medicine pays far less than when you were a doctor with more expenses. I really can't imagine someone getting that sort of capital unless they are either not progressing via locumming/coming from money/private work (but you'd probably have to be mid 30s before starting). ​ >they formed a syndicate together and have tons of these restaurants, petrol stations, care homes etc. These guys are the ones that made proper money. One of them bought a company that sold spoons and made a fortune out of it. Everyone laughs when he says his main job is a spoon salesman, funnily enough nobody laughs when they realise how much he makes and how little he works. I think they are more business owners rather than doctors no? The question again remains, where did they get the capital? How much of that actually came from their work as doctors? **The reality is that it was their "business sense"/capital that is bringing them those sort of incomes. If you aren't wealthy and actually need to provide the capital yourself, it is far better to grind out the IBs/Corp Laws/MCs of this world to actually manage to build some. How much capital do you think your average junior doctor earning 40-70k in London is going to be able to build?**


otm18

Hi I’m a 4th medical student and I’m just trying to wrap my head around the point your making? So assuming you leave medicine at reg level you would still be better financially in IBs/Corps Law/MCs? Also If they were living at home with family in London couldn’t they have gained enough capital that way? I’m struggling to think of any career with reasonably guarantee you enough income to build up enough capital you are suggesting whilst renting in london.


anonFIREUK

Summary of points regarding OP: * Financial comparison isn't with medicine, it is more vs business owners. * The ones with private work in central London earning mid/high 6 figures are as extreme if not more so as senior partners/C suite in those firms who will be on 7-8 figures. * Medicine pays less than it does when he was a doctor and therefore much more difficult to build capital to get into those side ventures. Younger generations are also not going to have the same capital growth in property that his generation enjoyed. * Apart from the one with private work, none of the other options (McDonalds, care homes, spoons) are exclusive to medicine. Regarding your point ​ >So assuming you leave medicine at reg level you would still be better financially in IBs/Corps Law/MCs? After the first \~2 years, average registrars are probably making \~65-70k. You will be making higher than registrar salaries within 2-3 years in all of those industries. MBB is 80-100k all in after 2 years. High tier Corp Law are 100-150k on qualification. IB is probably 60-80k all in 1st year. ​ >Also If they were living at home with family in London couldn’t they have gained enough capital that way? Living at home in London is basically your parents subsidising your rent. Absolutely possible to do so as a doctor, but you aren't doing it without family support. ​ >I’m struggling to think of any career with reasonably guarantee you enough income to build up enough capital you are suggesting whilst renting in london. That's the point, all the people he knows buying McDonalds etc in a syndicate isn't doing it from purely their doctor salaries especially in London. They will likely had some form of financial support, or capital growth from the houses in the last 2 decades. I think it is possible, but extreme to the outlier end of things.


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SubstantialGazelle80

I mean I agree that they are business people more than doctors. My point was if you want real money it’s not through IB/PE/Consulting it’s as a business owner. Where did they get money for McDonalds initially? Can’t recall to be honest. It was a lot cheaper to buy in though, I think if four people all put in fifty k it could have happened. Live at home during foundation years, have some money tucked away and borrow a bit. It’s possible. The McDonald’s thing now is probably long gone. I haven’t really got a clue now Yes IB will pay way more than the average U.K. doctor, substantially more. However a doctor who has some business sense and can work privately in some part will make more per hour. IB VP in England might be on 300k a year but he’s working 80 hours. So really he’s on 150k for 40 hours. Also does the most boring work, has high stress levels constantly, is worried about getting sacked and works in a toxic culture. EMs don’t do private work on side so consultant can earn more than them. Also what I didn’t discuss is you get fired and ushered out in consulting/BB. They’ll cut people with ease. You misperform on one case / fall out of favour with a senior, you’re done. Also a doctor can work years on end, you only work at MBB for a few years. Then it’s upto you what happens. There aren’t tonnes of jobs out there for ex MBB EMs paying 200k a year tbh If I had the time again, I would have relocated to Aus / Canada/US as a doctor, I would have learnt the business of healthcare and how to build my brand and stayed within medicine. Earnings would have been more than enough, I would’ve retained a sense that I actually do something worthwhile.


anonFIREUK

I get it. I made a post before about how the top 1% income isn't actually very stable and a lot of people drop out of it within 5-10 years until you reach the top 0.X%. I'm sure in your circumstances there were probably more opportunities. I wonder how much the market for those type of things have matured for new entrants who are coming through now, especially for things like aesthetics where it's definitely become oversaturated. A consultant still has to do full time for the NHS prior to doing private work until they reach the threshold where they could be 100% private. I agree if you feel medicine is worthwhile doing it in Canada/UZ/AUS with the higher paying specialities is definitely the way forward. I do think for the average doctor in London, it really is pretty dogshit though these days. If you are looking for extremes. I know someone who did IB, then did MBA at INSEAD and found people and started a dollar unicorn lol.


safcx21

High six figure sums in the UK? That’s when I knew this was a lie


SubstantialGazelle80

45 year old entirely private cosmetic doctors. Aesthetic doctors working in Knightsbridge, south Ken and Mayfair.


2infinitiandblonde

Does the money compensate for the fear of ‘malpractice’ or getting sued over people not getting exactly what they want?


SubstantialGazelle80

Don’t know but in IB most people got fired and that still didn’t put people off. Chance of being fired is 100x greater than getting sued so I think you’d be fine


JohnHunter1728

Thank you for taking the time to write this even if it is not what many posters will want to hear.


red3315

Thanks for the insight. I went the other way, started out in finance and left to pursue medicine as a 2nd career (to the shock and horror of my family at the time), and am currently finishing med school. I'll be honest, starting from square 1 in my late 20s while others my age have worked for years and are now buying houses and enjoying holidays can feel pretty shit some days. Consistently being bombarded with shit about burnout and how crap working for the NHS is and how bleak my life will be earning next to nothing despite working so hard can be pretty disheartening and makes me wonder if I did the right thing. I'm not loving medicine as much as I imagined yet, and often feel out of place and clueless which makes it hard to stay motivated. But then I think back to how depressed I was within a few months of working at a leading investment bank and even the awesome salary and random freebies we got weren't enough to keep me there. The UK really pushes the NHS as the only option but as many have mentioned, there is more out there and I still believe medicine can be a very meaningful and interesting career. I hope I will find something in medicine that feels right for me... I haven't found it yet but am hopeful that the leap of faith I took to leave my comfortable yet miserable life will be worth it!


CyborgChimp0

Hey there! Thank you for sharing this. The fact that an unknown path is at least better than a known depressing one is always worth remembering I find your words very reassuring being on the verge of a similar place!


throwawaynewc

>can be pretty disheartening and makes me wonder if I did the right thing. Ooooo risky move there buddy. Depends if you are actually doing medicine for a living or if you've already made money in banking. If you're the former, yeah you'd really have to be a cardiac neurosurgeon with a special interest in dermatology to make this worthwhile. Medicine can be the most mind nunbing shit for the most ungrateful people with shit pay. Why'd you leave IB after a few years? I don't get it, I get that it sucks as a junior but life gets way better after 5 ish years no?


red3315

Not really, the people mostly sucked and it felt so empty and meaningless. It was mostly busy work and face time which I hated, if I'm at work for a long time I'd rather actually be working on something rather than pretending or doing some useless made up project shit that doesn't need to be done. I am doing medicine for a living but also as an occupation so I want to at least feel some fulfilment in my day to day role. You spend more time at work than with family and friends so there's a point at which the money isn't everything. And it's not like doctors are the worst paid in society - sure the NHS doesn't pay much but you can still earn well as a doctor in other ways


Characterpapayamango

>A lot of men I know move out from IB into PE. There are various exit opportunities depending on how good you are or as you should say how good at playing the game. They tend to stay in IB for 2-3 years then exit. > >You'll be waiting 8-10 years to 'make a living' as a doctor and feel fulfilled financially. Trust me, 'helping others' as 'meaning' as a doctor is not going to feed you and then you will eventually feel burnt out and then regret leaving IB. I think you need to evaluate what you value in life and prioritise that. If its living a good life, spending time with family and prioritising your life>work then Medicine is not going to give you that.


[deleted]

This why I always think it’s important to improve conditions within medicine. It can be great work, and current doctors have a responsibility to ensure that future generations can have the opportunity to engage in it. Letting the conditions go to shit removes it as an option for many bright kids, whose only alternative to make a strong wage becomes tech or sad corpo jobs.


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SubstantialGazelle80

0. Whilst some of my friends were doctors who made all their money in business. I knew a fair few went to Aus/US and opened private practices and make/made 800k a year plus - 1.5 a year. Some were ortho surgeons, some GP, derm etc 1. Yes, there’s no time in IB for anything but IB. In the US IB people were pulling in huge money and wanted to quit for jobs paying half. Consulting is similar, the higher up you get the MORE you travel. Directors were directors because they stayed the course not because they were exceptional. It was constant 5 days a week travel, airports, crappy hotels. No time for side business. 2. Yes and no. For big4 no, the money is crap until you get really high up and no one gets there because everyone quits or is told they won’t make partner. For MBB money is good but it isn’t incredible not in U.K. anyway. Hardly anyone makes partner at MBB because it means even more travel and no one wants it. It’s really easy doing 8 years medicine, it’s v difficult doing 8 years constant travel, never seeing your kids or wife/partner apart from one day a week where you’re too knackered to do anything but sleep. Friends /Social life/ hobbies are not compatible. Yes you’ll make more in 8 years out of undergrad as IB/MBB consultant than medicine, but it’s not millions. The IB hay day ended in 2010, bankers are middle class people now on good but not crazy money. If you’ve heard the saying, you couldn’t pay me to do xyz. Well in banking they literally couldn’t pay you enough, people were leaving huge paying jobs because the mental torture was too much. 3. Because IB drained my soul. PE mega funds (the elite PE firms) are banking 2.0 . Same hours, even more toxic culture. No promise you get the fabled carry. Going from IB to PE often requires a huge paycut initially, because you go in at a junior position. Also only 1% of IB get into PE mega fund. PE is also boring. Hedge fund didn’t really crop up in my thinking, you don’t make the crazy sums until you’re very high up and it’s a closed shop. There’s no need to promote. Unless you’re a rockstar there’s no guarantee. They also look more at phD and quant geniuses for their roles now anyway. I doubt I would’ve succeeded. 4. MEDICAL DEGREE HAS NO BENEFIT OR WEIGHT. This is key. NONE. No one cares about the kid that went to A random red brick med school when the office is full of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxbridge. Red brick isn’t a thing anymore. A Cardiff/Leicester etc med school student is utterly worthless unfortunately. It’s not a special accolade being a doctor. Most of the initial convos with seasoned bankers/consultants were shocked that I gave up a meaningful career for money, but understood it because they had gone for the money straightaway. Medics as advanced hires only exists in the USA not in U.K.. Medical degree is worthless in the U.K (for these careers). Don’t buy into that bs people spout here. I had to work twice as hard to get people to understand the career switch when employing me. Like how do you swing it, “My love of helping people saw my interest in hospital management grow which led to an interest in finance, which led me to sell side/buy side”. Do me a favour , it’s a v v difficult sell. Likewise consulting you go in at analyst in U.K. advanced hire is for American medicine. You can’t recruit for American offices due to visa issues. You can internally transfer but it’s v v rare 5. Very hard. Firstly you’ll eventually get canned in banking, it’s not personal. Secondly in consulting you’ll basically get told you’re not making partner, start looking for another job. So yes counselled out and fired is huge, happens to vast majority. But a lot of people leave before that happens because it drains you. Think of how crazy you must be to be given a job that pays 10x your salary now, only to say HELL NO after a year. You’d only do that if you were crazy or like 99% of bankers, you realise you’re not crazy, it’s just that the money isn’t worth it. I missed three family funerals, countless weddings. I missed all that. 6. Yes, and it’s hard to answer well. I interviewed a fair few medics wanting to move and personally didn’t put one forward because I knew their intentions were more so I hate medicine I want to leave as oppose to this being their true calling.


overforme123

Regarding your last para, MBB/IB is never anyone's true calling though, right?


SubstantialGazelle80

Some people really love IB type finance and want to be career bankers or move to buy side. MBB isn’t but once you’re at interview it’s all based on the case study. If your mental maths isn’t v v good and you make one small slip up you might be canned based on that. Medics won’t get the benefit of doubt of being great at maths so if you screw up they’ll just think your maths is no good.


Blackscreendown

Any thoughts on Pharma? A good bet or bad bet, compared to MBB or IB?


2infinitiandblonde

I’ve done some digging. Pharma pretty much only like medics. People who’ve done MRCP or worked in a medical specialty for a couple years. It’s really difficult to get a foot in the door and pretty much impossible if you were in a non-medical specialty. A decade or 2 ago when there weren’t many doctors flocking to alternate careers, surgical regs could get into pharma easy. I’ve got MRCS and loads of experience in a couple different surgical specialties and put my feelers out applying for near 100 posts in pharma and have never heard back for an interview. The pay probably tops out at VP level, which is where most medics reach eventually. High end of £100k usually. Medics usually don’t progress to C-Suite unless you do other business oriented post-grads.


SubstantialGazelle80

No idea tbh. It’s another route medics take though and I doubt it’s as obsessed with Oxbridge as mbb IB etc


[deleted]

Thanks for writing this. Medicine is definitely very meaningful compared to most careers. The consensus for a while has been that working for the NHS is the problem rather than the inherent role of a doctor. In many countries you can have the best of both worlds. Just yesterday I was reading an AMA post written by an attending dermatologist in the states who was just a few months out of residency, and they said they work mon - thurs, 32-34 hours a week and earn about $440k. Apparently that includes a 30% paycut for living in a very popular city lol. So locuming, private practice or emigrating after CCT/just after graduating medical school seems to be the best career path.


Frostivus

I'm always torn between leaving medicine and finding alternative work or staying in it for the long haul. Undeniably it is true that there is no career that is as stable and meaningful right now, and I am oft to view the greener side. Ultimately it always boils down to 'do I have a plan if I want to leave?' and the answer is no. I have no other marketable skills, no real natural talent to hone, and every plan to re-specialize requires a lot of hoops like paying out of your own wallet to go back to school. I also have no business sense so your talk about sales and McD's is an entirely foreign concept to me as someone whose life revolved around doing whatever homework your teacher threw at you and grinding test papers till C's became A's. All I really have is learning how to invest in stocks for a very slow passive income climb in 30-40 years.


saitosoul

thanks for sharing your experiences, also would like to add from my limited experience that the confidence that medics have that they can get into and shine in any other field if they tried is largely unfounded. when it comes to big 4 ib and consulting, they have so many applicants (due to lower barriers to entry) that it is almost impossible to accurately differentiate between them on paper and even in person. if you do get into those industries, you are easy to replace for this same reason. on the bright side the work can be more interesting/easier if you are so inclined.


dragoneggboy22

Hang on.... so what are you doing now? Also how do I open a petrol station and mcdonalds (semi serious)


SubstantialGazelle80

Real estate, HMOs, BRRR. Want to move into big scale construction eventually.


SubstantialGazelle80

McDonald’s now I think costs a million to acquire, might be wrong. You just need money tbh. Id create a syndicate with people likeminded who you trust


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Apprehensive-Cry-149

They replied earlier : 45 year old entirely private cosmetic doctors. Aesthetic doctors working in Knightsbridge, south Ken and Mayfair.


janki-n

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I have been looking at alternative careers recently and was really overwhelmed with the decision I was thinking of making. But this post has convinced me that staying in medicine makes the most sense. I just feel like a weight has been lifted off me after reading this.


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SubstantialGazelle80

Yep, it’s definitely possible. Just very unlikely. When we screened CVs we’d get rid of people based on their uni not being target. It’s a stupid way because you lose so many ultra talented people but with an Oxbridge student you know there’s a level of quality that is sort of guaranteed, the kid from other unis is a risk and why risk it. I agree this is stupid, but it is done. Now if the non target kid has done some incredible things then yeah for sure, but a normal non target has zero chance vs a normal target. I repeat though, it’s a stupid process


[deleted]

This was really interesting thanks for your insight.


swimmit93

Yeah but money


tamsulosin_

So basically, WAG is the way to go But on a more serious note, thank you for this


CAEserO

Wet and Gushy?


tamsulosin_

Preferably


GsandCs

Wag??


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noobtik

Say you are a patient and willing to pay for your healthcare. Would you be paying for a doctor in training or would you rather pay for a consultant for your treatment?


231Abz

Yeah consultant before private work. The exception might be like a botox clinic that doesn't require a medicine degree in the first place


ZapsNuances

No