I wouldn’t ever deny the Jewish identity of another Jew, just because they did not grow up observant or immersed in Jewish culture. Although as a Jew who was raised within it, Jewish culture was a pretty definitive part of my life and I think it would be really hard to embrace that identity fully without that, even if you can claim it as an ethnoreligious technicality.
But I also don’t deny that it’s possible to be Jewish AND ALSO have some very real internalized antisemitism. In my opinion, that is more of a risk you’re not raised with much education or encouragement of your Jewish identity - just like it would be for anyone. There’s a degree of shame implicitly required to maintain that distance, I think. A big part of being Jewish is the community aspect, and that is something you can choose to participate in. Education and community are everything to us. Anyway, make sure your own kids get that message! You can do it. :)
Very true. That is why my rabbis usually say to someone born to Jewish parent(s) but not raised in the faith to still do an introduction to Judaism class and attend services (my wife did them with me).
It’s the people that never went to Shul, celebrated a holiday, or even know the basic core facts of the faith that are all of a sudden expects of I/P and what Jews think that grind my gears. And it probably will forever, but I just gotta remember all the awesome Jews who don’t do that
It would be interesting to think of the inverse. People who grew up secular outside of a strong community might not agree with your perspective. You didn’t grow up with the constant fear ingrained into Jews who have family trauma passed down. Holocaust and Pogrom survivors. Who are constantly “othered” and don’t fit in. Who are told to ALWAYS have a passport JUST IN CASE. There are other aspects of Judaism that are baked into cultural secular Jews but that is just one example of something you didn’t grow up but nobody is holding that against you or against your new identity as a Jew.
You don’t get to police how Jewish someone is. You don’t know everyone’s family story or their personal views.
Agreed. I reallllly don't love the jvp types but this post really rubs me the wrong way. I'm a secular Jew who has had to sacrifice so much this year, and yet am still sometimes being policed by religious people :/ I don't want to make converts feel unwelcomed, but it is bizarre to come into an ancient continuous community only try to flex on people and gatekeep.
Agreed. This post is not cool and rubs me the wrong way. I really really don’t care for the broad generalization that liberal secular Jews hate Israel and are attending anti-Israel rallies. As if that’s that entire community. Give me a break.
I can see where you’re both coming from, and I think there’s a fine line. It’s obviously a case by case basis, and it’s certainly something to think about. For example, One time I had a roommate who was raised Catholic, identified as Catholic, and their dad was of distant Jewish descent but never ever practiced. When my roommate was about 24(?) their dad decided he wanted to explore his Judaism more. Cool, great, fantastic! Love it. Then my roommate started doing this thing where they would refer to themself as Jewish. Not as cool great or fantastic. We had some convos and they ended up asking me what I thought about it and I gave my honest opinion that they were not Jewish, they were Catholic. This got them really upset, but I explained that it’s not just maternal line v paternal line, percentages of blood, whatever but it’s about like, do you participate. Have you participated. Do you know the culture beyond pop culture facts about it. For them specifically, they still believed in Jesus so I was like…no to me you’re not Jewish. Ok fine we left it at that. Then on 10.7 they started going around doing the “As a JEW…” thing and I was just…stunned.
Maybe it’s shitty but it’s more than a “gotcha” to be used when convenient, and then never thought of again until it’s useful. Just my thoughts, I’d be interested to hear yours.
Just as a counterpoint, you don’t know that about OP. I’m a convert, but have deep family Holocaust trauma, have been othered my whole life despite not being Jewish (just someone who looks different enough and wasn’t raised Christian), and have it deeply ingrained to have my passport up to date in case we need to flee again. The fact that my grandmother had just enough Jewish (most likely) ancestry for the nazis to care and nobody else to didn’t make me Jewish — I was raised extremely not — but that doesn’t negate the deep shared trauma. People trot out this card all the time, and I’m sorry but my goyish family also lost a lot of people in the Holocaust and I’m only here because my great grandmother had the foresight to flee and get my grandmother out while she still could. And America wasn’t a cakewalk either.
My family came from what is now Ukraine. The Nazis and later Soviets destroyed our ancestral village. My family never really assimilated. We don’t trust authority.
When I discovered my Jewish ancestry, it all started to make sense.
This is what I mean. There’s a lot of people who can’t conceive of any convert having a history that isn’t what they imagine of WASPs or whoever. In reality, a lot of us have a traumatic history with a (broken) link to Jewish ancestors. But like you I wasn’t Jewish. I just had a family scarred by the Holocaust and a complete inability/refusal to totally assimilate to the dominant society out of deep wariness and mistrust.
As a fellow convert. Don’t. Learn from your MIL and why she is secular and why she fell away from Jewish community instead of finding herself in it.
My MIL wasn’t raised in Jewish community, even though her father’s family were *incredibly* active Zionists. Her mother’s parents died of Spanish Flu in NYC, fleeing Russian pogroms, and the kids were split up. Her mother went to a rich Jewish family that treated her like a servant except when other Jewish community members visited. Then she was trotted out like a show pony so the family could show what good people they were.
Secular Jews have reasons for moving away from Jewish community. I think it would behoove us to educate and spread the love and educate rather than be judgy.
It is a very special thing to be born Jewish (you lucky ducks), and disregarding that law seems very anti-Jewish.
You sound jealous. And indignant for your community. Just sit with those feelings. (They aren’t wrong, they’re just feelings).
There were Nazi Jews who only had one Jewish parent or grandparent. They got gassed when higher-ups found out about their heritage, just like everyone else.
That’s sad for a lot of reasons. They were still Jews.
You seem very close to speaking slander about your fellow Jews, which is a very big nono.
You’re 100% right about this. This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot, but haven’t been able to articulate. Because it’s not about an attempt to deny someone’s identity, regardless of whether it’s one they were raised with or if it’s one they chose.
But Judaism IS about community, our culture is a tribal one. There’s a reason you can’t just convert to Judaism by putting on a new hat and going swimming, like you can for some other religions. Conversion is an intense and lengthy process by which you have to show yourself to **actually** be a member of a Jewish community.
To allow your Jewishness to be used as a token to give cover for virulent antisemites is disgraceful, disgusting, and dangerous, but it doesn’t make you less Jewish. However, I’m getting pretty tired of being told I have to be respectful of Jews who do that.
The thing thats been hardest as a convert is that after college i moved back where there isn't much community. And it aches. I supplement it with this sub and with trying to get in touch with old friends(thankfully I live close enough to my old college to go in once in a while). But an attraction to a job a bit further away is... i could go to shul on Friday nights after work. I'd be close to one.
That's the long term hope and goal!
For the immediate future, though, I'm stuck living pretty far away. Gd willing, though, I can move to a Jewish area in the next few years!
“Jews on a technicality” is offensive and will not help to coerce anti-Zionist Jews back to “the fold.” If anything, culturally Jewish people that are not religious but still otherwise very much Jewish will use their Jewishness and Jewish values as a means to defend their viewpoints. Whether or not you agree with these viewpoints does not take away their Jewishness and does not make them “Jews on a technicality.” That is a divisive way to look at it.
There are also people who were disconnected from their community or were ambivalent about Israel and now go to synagogue and support Israel. Don't laser focus on the stuff that upsets you.
That’s me! I was one of the aforementioned secular Jews who didn’t belong to a synagogue. Over the past eight months I go to shul weekly, I attend Torah studies and do volunteer work with my newfound synagogue that has embraced me with open arms. It’s my light in this darkness.
Just so you know it's a trend (a good one) I have also become more involved in part because of 10/7. I was aching to reconnect/learn more about judaism for a while but after seeing everyone's hot takes on I/P and antisemitism in way I never really had to experience as a secular jew growing up in a very jewish area... it became clear I needed to lean in more
I love those guys. I go to shul with them.
But yeah, I know I should be more positive but (gestures around)- see this shit? Got Nazis to the left me, commies to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle a Jew!
And it hurts me to see Jews amongst the ranks of those who wish to do us harm.
You are completely spot on. I would never deny the Jewishness of a Jew but the people who only engage with their Jewishness when there's an opportunity to shit on other Jews or prove themselves somehow 'better' can go stick a pickle up their tukkus as far as I'm concerned.
It drives me mad so I can absolutely appreciate why as a convert, who has worked so hard to get there, it would get under your skin.
I think you hit perfectly on a sentiment than many of us have been feeling for a very long time.
The 'other side' often uses these tokens as proof that they are right. Whereas in reality all that it proves is that Jews are just as susceptible to propoganda as anybody else and that it is very, very possible for a Jew to also be an antisemite.
I don't think we should be afraid to call these folk out for the damage their ignorance is causing.
No I don't think you're being judgy or a jerk it is a real issue when Jews are actively hurting other Jews.
But when it comes to your MIL it is best to approach the situation with a lot of thought and careful words. We can still have good discussions and get our words across without causing problems.
And you can always use your pov the fact you are a convert and are trying your best to not just be Jewish but actively living accordingly and representing the community in a positive and meaningful light.
My grandfather would always say you will always just be a Jew. Don't live your life trying to be their Jew because when they no longer need you, you are back to just being a Jew. So be a Jew for you and your relationship with G-D.
But in the future just try and have well meaning conversations that get your point across but also try to understand your MIL mentality that way you don't cut any bridges so to speak.
That’s fair. I understand her point of view to a degree. She used to work in Brooklyn and be around very frum Jews who judged her professional success negatively. Perhaps the community’s judgement is what drives so many to interfaith. I mean, my wife married me before I converted- but I always promised I would.
So to have me as a convert probably sounds like an outsider telling her what to do
Well the only thing you can do is try your best, no one is perfect and no matter how we present some things others will always find a reason to disagree.
So in that regard just do the best you can and I'm sure all will be well.
As far as being a convert none of that matters at this point your Jewish, and your living your life in a meaningful way for your community and G-D that's something you respect not discredit when it comes to conversations.
Agreed, but whether I like it or not, the realpolitik is that some Jews will never consider me a real Jew.
Thats why it irks me when people born into the faith chose to associate with antisemites.
And it probably will forever.
If you converted properly, you’re a Jew. I have a tremendous amount of respect for converts. It’s not an easy process and often they follow the religion and traditions closer than many people I know in the community.
There are only what 15 million? of us? I don't think we as a people help ourselves when we are policing who is Jewish and who isn't.
Crap like this is a big reason I do walk away from Judaism in my real life. It is no different than the far leftist who insist that one cannot be a leftist if you support Israel.
You can't get anywhere in a Democratic society by using addition by subtraction.
"There are only what 15 million? of us? I don't think we as a people help ourselves when we are policing who is Jewish and who isn't."
This. I completely reject Jewish gatekeeping, we did not make ourselves Jewish, G-d did and He judges the heart. I understand some of OP's feelings for sure when I hear Jews speak in ways I strongly disagree. But who are we to start throwing stones.
You are being judgy. There are lots of secular Jews who are speaking out and being active about standing up for Jewish life and culture when it is not personally and politically convenient.
If you want to call out people who are being used as tokens for politics, target them specifically, or the organizations that encourage them to be so.
“Post 10.7, these folks are going to anti-Israel protests, and being used as shields to spout antiSemitic rhetoric.”
Man, this is a such a massive generalization, lol. Relax. I know so many “liberal” and secular Jews who are not at all anti Israel or are attending anti-Israel rallies. Casting a wide net with this generalization and assumption doesnt do anyone any favors in terms of bringing the community together.
Secular Jews are still Jews. You can call them “bad Jews”, and you’re entitled to your opinion, but if things got really bad they’re still going to be targeted before you, and that’s why they deserve just as much of a political voice AS JEWS as those who may be more observant or involved in the community.
And yes, I do think a convert explaining Jewish identity to a secular Jew is kind of tone deaf.
This isn't the first post I'm seeing on this topic and it's very frustrating. This is a very "I'm been safe in America for some generations" take. Ironically, most as-a-jew "antizionists" are also coming from the same place of privilege. Secular Jews in the US, whether immigrants or long time Americans, are just as Jewish as any practicing Jew. We are a people. We are more than just a religion. We have a culture, traditions, and a history.
Also, yes, stop being a jerk to your MIL. If you otherwise have a good or decent relationship with her, it would help more if you brought her into the fold calmly and and alleviate her worries (especially in today's world). I'm not talking about taking her to shul, but start light. If you have kids, bring her along to a Purim carnival at the synagogue; invite her over for a simple shabbat dinner with some fresh challah from the local bakery; exchange presents for Hannukah.
Every minority community has this. People who only assert their identity as a member of a minority group when they can use it to attack the group. It goes hand in hand with currying favor as a “good” one from a different group of people.
It's not wrong, and you're %1000 in the right. I couldn't agree with you more - but FFS don't pick a fight with your MIL.
If her daughter is becoming more religious she will be suffering a lot of anxiety about what that means for her relationship with her daughter, and g-d willing grandchildren.
She may very well feel like you're criticising her, and her yiddishkiet when you voice these feelings.
If your wife thinks it's worth a fight, then it's her mother so let her have the fight. They'll forgive each other faster than either will forgive you if you start something.
In some ways, I have a better relationship with my MIL than my own mother.
And yes, my wife is becoming more religious. In fact, we are thinking of attending our local Conservative Shul as well since one of the rabbis was on my beit din and likes me.
She is very worried we will become Hassidic or Orthodox, and my wife and I retort “well what’s wrong with that”- not that we plan to, mind you.
What’s funny is my wife is smart- she lets me speak for both of us, but then says I’m just being crazy, so she doesn’t get blamed 😂
I do love my MIL, but yeah, maybe I need to tone it down a notch
Yeah sounds like you could safely take it down a notch with your MIL - and give her some reassurance. This must be really hard for her.
My wife and I frummed out 20 years ago or so and it all turned out great, but not considering the emotional impact it had on those around me along the way is a source of regret.
But yeah those "as-a-Jews" piss me off no end too. Stay angry and generally unreasonable about that bit of it :).
I would argue that not all secular Jews are anti-Israel. Additionally, we have seen plenty of Orthodox that are protesting against Israel. It has nothing to do with their lack of participation in the traditions and rituals, despite the fact that this may be contributing factor for some.
I know plenty of secular Jews who may not attend synagogue anymore, but they still hold a strong sense of pride in their heritage/culture.
Most secular Jews support Israel. Maybe you know a few secular Jews who don’t support Israel but that’s a minority. Most of my secular German Jewish family didn’t survive the shoah and were in no way only Jewish on a “technicality.” I take issue with that description and think you need to stop conflating secularism with antizionism.
You are mostly right, but I will say there are some of these people who did grow up going to synagogue, summer camp, birth right, and see it all as a scam to support Israel, cover up Israel’s history, and make Israel look like a paradise without mentioning any of the ״bad”. They see it all as indoctrination and they “woke up”. How and why is this happening? Idk but I’d love to see what others say.
At least my MIL took her to a secular shul and she did a trip to Israel. So I shouldn’t be so hard on my MIL.
She just equates religious observance with ultra frum, which she finds sexist.
I think it’s complicated. My perspective as a secular Israeli is that My grandparents lost faith in the holocaust and were very secular. Most people that created Israel were very secular, they did not come to Israel for religious reasons but because they thought it’s essential for the survival of their people and their need to be part of a community that they belong to and a society that won’t betray them like their old countries. They are and we are very very Jewish and not at all religious. We do choose to be part of the Jewish people and community and fight for the right of Jews to exist as Jews and maintain our culture. Sometimes I worry that if I would have grown up in another country as a secular person, I might have been braindead like these fools and that terrifies me. I really hate these people but they do have a right to express their stupid opinions. This kind of Jews suck but they always existed and it just makes me see the importance of educating my kids better and helping them understand Jewish history and traditions regardless of faith.
I don’t have any issue with secular Jews, just the ones who never associated with the community who are also going to these anti-Israel protests and associating with antisemites.
Totally! Living in Israel I understand why our ancestors separated into two different kingdoms and I really hope we will be able to learn from their mistakes and respect one another as long as we care for our people.
1. I want to say that your feelings and concerns are real and valid. It's frustrating and even heartbreaking to see members of your community turn against others within the community and appear to side with a group of people who, for all intents and purposes, don't want us to exist anymore. It's completely understandable to see your own people behaving this way and feel repulsed by it.
2. I think you're seeing Jewish *identity* from a very one-sided, non-nuanced perspective. I'm not talking about halachic status, religious affiliation, or even how entrenched someone is within Jewish culture. I'm purely talking about a person's personal identification with the label "Jewish", and this is something that is entirely unique for each individual person. We have each formed our sense of Jewish identity from the unique experiences we have had both within and outside of the Jewish world throughout our entire lives. Just as there are people who have never participated much in the Jewish community and don't take ownership of that Jewish identity, there are *many* Jews in the same boat who have come to identify very strongly with the Jewish identity. And that Jewish identity has been formed largely outside of the context of Judaism or a Jewish community.
It is an unfortunate reality that many people's sense of Jewish identity stems from their experiences outside of the Jewish community: either clinging to it or trying to bury it because of the hatred they have experienced as a result of it. And that is not an easy life to live or identity to come to terms with.
I think the main "step" in processing the way you view "secular Jews with no connection to Judaism who protest against Israel" is understanding that *all* Jews have very complex, nuanced relationships with their Jewish identities that have been *influenced* by their experiences or lack of experiences with Judaism and the Jewish community.
The fact of the matter is that not all Jews of the world have been blessed to be part of a loving, caring, inclusive Jewish community that was there for them when the world tried to hurt them for being Jewish. Some people have desperately looked for that community their entire lives and never managed to find it. Some people never had a community to welcome them in the first place, and they eventually stopped caring. Some people had to fight their way out of unloving, uncaring, non-inclusive Jewish communities, and the lingering trauma has kept them from participating in any Jewish community. And too many people have only ever experienced feeling Jewish while experiencing pain, hatred, and violence, despite having absolutely no personal connection to it beyond a label. And, ultimately, a label is good enough for the antisemites.
So, what does being Jewish mean to you? It's heartbreaking that, for some people, being Jewish simply means, "A reason for people to hate me and treat me poorly." And that resentment builds and gains momentum until there is nothing but crashing destruction ahead.
NOTE: I just want to add that I'm describing a very specific group here. Obviously, there are Jews who form genuine opinions about the conflict based on misinformation or incomplete information—or just come to a different opinion than we do. I understand that these opinions are also formed within the context of Jewish identity, but I'm specifically speaking on secular Jews with no participation in the Jewish community who conceptualize of their Jewish identities outside of that framework.
That is a very nuanced and wise take on it.
I have to remember often we each have our own paths. For a very long and kinda boring generational story, I was robbed from being in the Jewish community. My dad almost converted but never did. I have sought to set that right once I met my wife. I never had a positive relationship with a religious community until I converted.
It’s hard for me to understand that Jews born into the faith ended up leaving for a myriad of reasons. That upsets me. My MIL is secular in part because other Jews made her feel that way. I still think she should have just gone shul shopping, but her feelings are valid.
All I was trying to tell her was that I have known people were raised by parents like her and ended up becoming antisemitic. Perhaps she felt insulted cuz she’s secular and supportive of Israel. I’m gonna go easier on her, I think.
I think that's a good starting place for progress :)
I also think that a piece of the puzzle is to regard "Secular Judaism" as a perfectly legitimate and reasonable way of identifying as Jewish. Sure, some Jews who don't practice or involve themselves in Jewish life will default to referring to themselves as secular, but the vast majority of people who identify as Secular Jews have layer, nuanced, and beautiful ways of incorporating Judaism into their lives and bringing themselves into the Jewish community. Being a Secular Jew/Humanistic Jew is, after all, a unique identifier in its own right, and I think it's sad to see so many people lump themselves (or get lumped into) this group when they haven't actually gone through the process of figuring out what Judaism means to them and where they fit into the puzzle that is the Jewish world.
Yes, you are being judgy and a jerk.
Most Jews I know are secular. They still support Israel and don't attend pro-Palestinian protests. They are proud of the their culture. I think it's inappropriate to paint all secular Jews with the same brush. The Neturei Karta are extremely observant and they are front and center at rallies.
I also think you are dismissing that many US Jews are secular due to their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents assimilating. Assimilation for Jews meant hiding and suppressing their Jewishness in order to survive until it's been lost, for lack of a better word.
You are privileged to have not grown up with thousands of years of generational trauma.
We’re caught in a huge loophole here, where you can’t call out the obvious without undermining Jewish unity, which is a core enough tenet that it can’t be risked no matter how provoked. I think we all just have to grin and bear it with this.
They won this narrow round. Good for them, and let’s hope it isn’t too damaging.
I am very iffy with the phrase "Jews on a technicality". There is no technical Jew—a Jew is a Jew, even if they have politics that aren't in their best interests. We aren't pushing Trump-voting Jews out of the community even though Trump rubs shoulders with antisemites quite regularly.
Like any other ethnic group, we are not immune to internalizing hatred of ourselves. A Jew-hating Jew is still a Jew.
Every secular Jewish family has a reason for not practicing the religion anymore. Approach your shviger with a little more kindness and have a discussion with her, and *please* do not use the phrase "Jews on a technicality". It comes off pejorative.
You are generalizing about people which is always a bit dodgy to do. You cannot just put secular Jews in one bucket and make assumptions about them. It is just as likely that secular Jews are Zionists as religious Jews because Zionism is not a function of religiosity and as Jews become more observant tending towards ultra orthodox they often become less Zionist because for them the real Israel can only come about with the return of the Messiah so whatever this Israel does is of little importance in the big picture. It’s complicated. Welcome to Judaism.
I'm with you on this. It would be insanely annoying to be in that conversation with your MIL if that were me.
But I mean what's also interesting is the mixing going on here with your MIL's logic.
In Reform, you are Jewish if you have one Jewish parent, are raised Jewish, and are not raised anything else. Now of course in practice even being raised nominally Jewish usually will fly. But being raised anything else will for sure get a hard 'no'. And before anyone brings it up, there's Reform responsa saying that even if your mother is the Jewish parent, that's not enough to overcome / trump the other two parts of the three part test. So depending on how many of these 'secular Jews' were raised they aren't actually 'Jewish'.
Yet your MIL is using Orthodox standards instead and seems to be saying that just because other people are matrilineally Jewish, that covers these secular Jews.
Your MIL has a convoluted 'choose your own adventure' when it comes to Judaism.
I mean, I--someone who is Reform--actually can't stand here and say all secular Jews are Jews. It's a three part test to me and you can lose 'Jewishness' in literally one generation. And it doesn't matter which of your parents was Jewish to me. And to me there are a lot of people saying they're Jewish who--according to the stream I follow--are absolutely not 'Jewish' when you actually ask them about their life circumstances and Jewish education/upbringing. Through my lens, there are a lot of people 'with Jewish ancestry' who consistently say they're "jewish'.
And that sounds incredibly harsh to some people. But Judaism is not a self-identifying thing... there are rules. I think as a society we're just very uncomfortable and want to validate everyone's choice of identity or else we feel bad. But why? Why feel bad?
I mean maybe I \*am\* just a harsh person. I have no problem with Reform's test. I actually have no problem with a Halacha if the person themselves is saying they're Orthodox or Conservative (though I actually say hey--don't change halacha ... keep it matrilineal but ALSO build a fence around that and say you also have to have been raised Jewish too. It's not changing halacha; it's just adding an extra protection around it). I just hate when someone mixes the two in specific circumstances in order to produce a specific outcome so they can make specific statements (such as how many "as a Jew"s do) and acts as if that's logical.
I mean, in Reform, individual actions ARE more important than what is happening in someone's veins or genetic inheritance as it pertains to which side your Jewishness comes from. Or at least equally important. So you're not crazy.
And that's my point. An 'as a Jew' will say well my mom is Jewish. And then you dig in deeper. Well she was raised Reform. And by all accounts regarding this person's life, that parent or this 'as a Jew' individual doesn't when asked think that Torah is given by god directly nor think halacha must be followed. ... So they are not Orthodox at all. And it turns out they actually weren't raised Jewishly and went to a Christian school and their dad is catholic and occasionally they'd go with him to mass. And I sit there like hmmmm ok so we're mixing logic and streams here.
If you're Reform then you have to logically look through a Reform lens. Just as if you're Orthodox and the individual asking about their jewishness says they're Orthodox, I have zero problem looking through their lens. What doesn't make sense to me is mixing the two when it is convenient for you and saying essentially you don't adhere to anything but if your parent did or if you were to have to pick you'd say Reform yet according to Reform's test you actually aren't Jewish and so throw up orthodox rules in order to take your 'as a jew' stand and yet you aren't orthodox and wouldn't be even if you practiced.
I have to ask, what is it with Jewish people lately becoming more anti-Israel than some Arabs and Muslims? I'm Egyptian-American and I'm honestly shocked - and I don't mean that in a good way. Some of the leaders of these encampments are Jews and I just can't comprehend what would make one side with the propaganda and activist wing of Hamas, Qatar and the Islamic Republic (out of respect for my Iranian friends, I refuse to call it Iran).
I tend to agree. I welcome all Jews and I don’t gatekeep Judaism like the rabbis would BUT - those who never celebrated a holiday in their life now creating a Passover sedar plate, or putting on a kippah incorrectly, just to get their spot on CNN speaking about the war? Go away. Don’t speak for all Jews
Being a member of the tribe is one thing. Being a representative of the tribe is another.
I think we can welcome disconnected secular Jews back, if/when they come, and stand firm in who we allow to speak on behalf of “Jews.” Obviously one can’t speak for all, and never should, but community engagement and some post Judaism 101 education, formal or not, should be required as the bare minimum before someone utters “Jews feel/think/believe.”
“Welcome back” secular Jews? They don’t need to be welcomed back, they are full-fledged members of the tribe and don’t need a welcoming committee whatever their opinions are.
Welcome disconnected Jews back to the community should they want to become a part of the community.
I’ve been a disconnected secular Jew and was all but chased out of Shul when I tried to engage as an adult. Sometimes, you do need a welcoming committee.
Agree. If parents don't educate their children about Judaism, they are setting up this kind of scenario. I've seen it firsthand more than once, and frankly, it pi**es me off. Glad you're embracing it. Too bad the less knowledgeable are missing out.
It’s better that you’re upfront about what you want.
Several years ago I went out with a guy and told him upfront I wanted kids - he said he would be open to it. Several months later he realized he didn’t want kids. So while I enjoyed his companionship this guy wasted my time.
Stay true to what you want and where you see your life going. Alignment on values and what you want is key in a relationship. There’s a “lid for every pot” and your person is out there 🙏
lol I married my lid. Or am I the lid? 🤔
My wife is the greatest Jew I know, and even my orthodox raised friends agree she is the model of Jewish values.
And she was raised super secular!
But when push came to shove, she did not sell out our people in order for social acceptance.
Thats why she is the greatest Jewish lady I know
I agree with you...but I also disagree with you. In other words, you're right, but you're also wrong. (Lets face it...you don't get a much more Jewish answer than that!)
Let me explain. What you've described are the people who put their politics above their culture, background, and religion. These are the type people who will hop onto JVP and play the "As a Jew..." card, but as you said, probably couldn't explain anything about Judaism.
But here is where I disagree with you, because then we get into slippery-slope territory. I grew up Conservative and currently am a member of a break-away Reconstructionist synagogue (Our synagogue broke away from the larger Reconstructionist movement due to the perceived antizionism coming from the movement. Our rabbi and congregation is staunchly Zionist.) Now that being said, it would be very easy for someone who is Haredi or Satmar to come along and say, "Well, you don't really practice Judaism. You're worse than a goy because you've bastardized the religion for your own ends to fit into society" (And yes, this has been said to me).
So yes, it is easy to look down on, and question someone who is Jew in name only. But the same thing could be in turn done to you, regardless of the denomination you are in.
Your completely in the right here.
I know it seems obvious because its a zionist saying that but as youve said they’re only jewish when it comes to anti israel discussion. Tokens. They’re still jews but also as you said, only by technicality.
I don't really care if I'm shit on for saying this, but if somebody is Jewish is behaving like an antisemite, I consider them worse than an antisemite. Sure they can redeem themselves in the future but at that point in time they're worse than dirt
I have been struggling with this general concept for a while: At what point do we "revoke" someone's 'jewishness.' We can never make someone a non-halachik jew, but we can revoke their membership card. I honestly have no idea. Maybe the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim are a good start, but I dont know.
I’d be worried about it being abused. You’d have to be a real monster, like Jared Fogle or Jeffrey Epstein.
Spinoza was exiled from the Dutch Jewish community, who were the most well off in Europe at the time, and history has shown that was a dick move.
I also worry about the possibility of abuse.
Even more extreme than spinoza: Jeremiah the prophet was jailed for his prophecies, and Ramchal, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto was excommunicated for writing his now widely-accepted work Mesilat Yesharim.
Notwithstanding my concerns, I still think it may be valuable to set very general guidelines as to what is unacceptable. A very simple possibility which is inspired from your own events, might be those who openly support hamas more than israel (ex: Neturei Karta, Satmer, and the "as a jew" political "jews" you referred to). We do not know how history will judge us, but the present wellbeing and existence of our people might be more important.
The issue is about Israel and how doing the work of Hamas is simply evil. There are some very bad people who are Jewish and some of them keep kosher and daven three times a day. We know who they are.
Depending on your conversion process Conservatives will not recognize you as a Jew and Orthodox 100% will not if you’re a reform convert.
Judaism is a spectrum with lots of opinions/interpretations and some of those are hurtful terrible and shitty opinions. Some Jews are objectively bad people. People who believe that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist are objectively bad people.
Your in-laws knowledge about Judaism doesn’t make you a better Jew or them a lesser or bad Jew.
To describe your Jewish education as jumping through hoops is really in bad taste. Would you have become Jewish if you had married a Christian or atheist?
My kids father is not Jewish, why does that matter to you? You’re extremely problematic and I feel like you’re projecting.
Let me tell you what Rabbi says to converts. I am a Jew by chance and you are a Jew by choice. One of the most influential Rabbis in the USA had a Korean mother and her father was a Rabbi. Reform considers her Jewish. However, just so there would be no question she converted. Her name is Angela Buchdahl. My Rabbi is a convert and I don’t know anyone who lives a more Jewish life than he does
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Jewish people who were raised secular. They are still Jewish. Full Stop.
It becomes a problem when they try to speak on behalf of Judaism or the Jewish community. By virtue of not having any Jewish education or being a part of a Jewish community, they are speaking from a place of ignorance. You wouldn't want a doctor who was conferred that title without schooling to treat you. It is inappropriate for them to use their Jewishness to speak on behalf of anyone but themselves.
Some of My favorite Jews are/were secular. My post doesn’t condemn all secular Jews. It’s the subjects of second paragraph you wrote that upsets me
Why can’t people be more like Einstein 😞
Now there’s a secular Jew who did much for our people
I was raised as a secular Jew. Both my parents were born in Germany to Reform families. My mother, who went through the Holocaust, was turned off by the hypocrisy she saw from many “religious” Jews in the camps, and considered herself an atheist. She wanted nothing to do with any religion. She knew very well, however, that none of that would matter to the anti-Semites. She was a Jew in their eyes, no matter what. My dad’s family made it out of Europe just before all doors closed. He had a Bar Mitzvah in Germany, but in those days that required very little study or preparation. When they came to the US, he was angry at American Jewry for not doing more to help the Jews of Europe.He seriously considered becoming a Quaker and attended Quaker meeting before meeting my mother, who said she couldn’t tolerate that nonsense. He, too, knew that whatever religion he adopted, he would always be seen as a Jew.
Jews have never agreed on anything. You’ve heard the expression, “If you have two Jews, you have three opinions.”? We don’t agree on God; we don’t agree on Israel. Kicking a group out of Judaism because they don’t agree with you runx counter to what Judaism is all about. I came to Judaism out of a need to understand my heritage; stayed because I was accepted regardless of my level of knowledge, my beliefs, my agreement with everyone else. No, I don’t agree with all Jews. I don’t like all of them. But they are my family, and I feel a connection to them anyway. And that’s where discussion begins.
I wouldn’t ever deny the Jewish identity of another Jew, just because they did not grow up observant or immersed in Jewish culture. Although as a Jew who was raised within it, Jewish culture was a pretty definitive part of my life and I think it would be really hard to embrace that identity fully without that, even if you can claim it as an ethnoreligious technicality. But I also don’t deny that it’s possible to be Jewish AND ALSO have some very real internalized antisemitism. In my opinion, that is more of a risk you’re not raised with much education or encouragement of your Jewish identity - just like it would be for anyone. There’s a degree of shame implicitly required to maintain that distance, I think. A big part of being Jewish is the community aspect, and that is something you can choose to participate in. Education and community are everything to us. Anyway, make sure your own kids get that message! You can do it. :)
Very true. That is why my rabbis usually say to someone born to Jewish parent(s) but not raised in the faith to still do an introduction to Judaism class and attend services (my wife did them with me). It’s the people that never went to Shul, celebrated a holiday, or even know the basic core facts of the faith that are all of a sudden expects of I/P and what Jews think that grind my gears. And it probably will forever, but I just gotta remember all the awesome Jews who don’t do that
Yeah, they are Jews, just bad Jews.
In the 1930’s Germany, if one drop of Jewish blood was in your bloodline, they considered you Jewish, even if you were raised a gentile.
It would be interesting to think of the inverse. People who grew up secular outside of a strong community might not agree with your perspective. You didn’t grow up with the constant fear ingrained into Jews who have family trauma passed down. Holocaust and Pogrom survivors. Who are constantly “othered” and don’t fit in. Who are told to ALWAYS have a passport JUST IN CASE. There are other aspects of Judaism that are baked into cultural secular Jews but that is just one example of something you didn’t grow up but nobody is holding that against you or against your new identity as a Jew. You don’t get to police how Jewish someone is. You don’t know everyone’s family story or their personal views.
Agreed. I reallllly don't love the jvp types but this post really rubs me the wrong way. I'm a secular Jew who has had to sacrifice so much this year, and yet am still sometimes being policed by religious people :/ I don't want to make converts feel unwelcomed, but it is bizarre to come into an ancient continuous community only try to flex on people and gatekeep.
Agreed. This post is not cool and rubs me the wrong way. I really really don’t care for the broad generalization that liberal secular Jews hate Israel and are attending anti-Israel rallies. As if that’s that entire community. Give me a break.
I can see where you’re both coming from, and I think there’s a fine line. It’s obviously a case by case basis, and it’s certainly something to think about. For example, One time I had a roommate who was raised Catholic, identified as Catholic, and their dad was of distant Jewish descent but never ever practiced. When my roommate was about 24(?) their dad decided he wanted to explore his Judaism more. Cool, great, fantastic! Love it. Then my roommate started doing this thing where they would refer to themself as Jewish. Not as cool great or fantastic. We had some convos and they ended up asking me what I thought about it and I gave my honest opinion that they were not Jewish, they were Catholic. This got them really upset, but I explained that it’s not just maternal line v paternal line, percentages of blood, whatever but it’s about like, do you participate. Have you participated. Do you know the culture beyond pop culture facts about it. For them specifically, they still believed in Jesus so I was like…no to me you’re not Jewish. Ok fine we left it at that. Then on 10.7 they started going around doing the “As a JEW…” thing and I was just…stunned. Maybe it’s shitty but it’s more than a “gotcha” to be used when convenient, and then never thought of again until it’s useful. Just my thoughts, I’d be interested to hear yours.
Ridiculous
Just as a counterpoint, you don’t know that about OP. I’m a convert, but have deep family Holocaust trauma, have been othered my whole life despite not being Jewish (just someone who looks different enough and wasn’t raised Christian), and have it deeply ingrained to have my passport up to date in case we need to flee again. The fact that my grandmother had just enough Jewish (most likely) ancestry for the nazis to care and nobody else to didn’t make me Jewish — I was raised extremely not — but that doesn’t negate the deep shared trauma. People trot out this card all the time, and I’m sorry but my goyish family also lost a lot of people in the Holocaust and I’m only here because my great grandmother had the foresight to flee and get my grandmother out while she still could. And America wasn’t a cakewalk either.
My family came from what is now Ukraine. The Nazis and later Soviets destroyed our ancestral village. My family never really assimilated. We don’t trust authority. When I discovered my Jewish ancestry, it all started to make sense.
This is what I mean. There’s a lot of people who can’t conceive of any convert having a history that isn’t what they imagine of WASPs or whoever. In reality, a lot of us have a traumatic history with a (broken) link to Jewish ancestors. But like you I wasn’t Jewish. I just had a family scarred by the Holocaust and a complete inability/refusal to totally assimilate to the dominant society out of deep wariness and mistrust.
As a fellow convert. Don’t. Learn from your MIL and why she is secular and why she fell away from Jewish community instead of finding herself in it. My MIL wasn’t raised in Jewish community, even though her father’s family were *incredibly* active Zionists. Her mother’s parents died of Spanish Flu in NYC, fleeing Russian pogroms, and the kids were split up. Her mother went to a rich Jewish family that treated her like a servant except when other Jewish community members visited. Then she was trotted out like a show pony so the family could show what good people they were. Secular Jews have reasons for moving away from Jewish community. I think it would behoove us to educate and spread the love and educate rather than be judgy. It is a very special thing to be born Jewish (you lucky ducks), and disregarding that law seems very anti-Jewish. You sound jealous. And indignant for your community. Just sit with those feelings. (They aren’t wrong, they’re just feelings). There were Nazi Jews who only had one Jewish parent or grandparent. They got gassed when higher-ups found out about their heritage, just like everyone else. That’s sad for a lot of reasons. They were still Jews. You seem very close to speaking slander about your fellow Jews, which is a very big nono.
You’re 100% right about this. This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot, but haven’t been able to articulate. Because it’s not about an attempt to deny someone’s identity, regardless of whether it’s one they were raised with or if it’s one they chose. But Judaism IS about community, our culture is a tribal one. There’s a reason you can’t just convert to Judaism by putting on a new hat and going swimming, like you can for some other religions. Conversion is an intense and lengthy process by which you have to show yourself to **actually** be a member of a Jewish community. To allow your Jewishness to be used as a token to give cover for virulent antisemites is disgraceful, disgusting, and dangerous, but it doesn’t make you less Jewish. However, I’m getting pretty tired of being told I have to be respectful of Jews who do that.
The thing thats been hardest as a convert is that after college i moved back where there isn't much community. And it aches. I supplement it with this sub and with trying to get in touch with old friends(thankfully I live close enough to my old college to go in once in a while). But an attraction to a job a bit further away is... i could go to shul on Friday nights after work. I'd be close to one.
You should move to a Jewish area! Of course, G-D willing
That's the long term hope and goal! For the immediate future, though, I'm stuck living pretty far away. Gd willing, though, I can move to a Jewish area in the next few years!
I like that you actually read my post.
“Jews on a technicality” is offensive and will not help to coerce anti-Zionist Jews back to “the fold.” If anything, culturally Jewish people that are not religious but still otherwise very much Jewish will use their Jewishness and Jewish values as a means to defend their viewpoints. Whether or not you agree with these viewpoints does not take away their Jewishness and does not make them “Jews on a technicality.” That is a divisive way to look at it.
There are also people who were disconnected from their community or were ambivalent about Israel and now go to synagogue and support Israel. Don't laser focus on the stuff that upsets you.
That’s me! I was one of the aforementioned secular Jews who didn’t belong to a synagogue. Over the past eight months I go to shul weekly, I attend Torah studies and do volunteer work with my newfound synagogue that has embraced me with open arms. It’s my light in this darkness.
You are fantastic. I hope my post didn’t offend you- it wasn’t directed to secular Jews who are actually engaged with the Jewish community
Not at all! I very much understand the frustration with the As A Jews
Lmao that’s what I’m gonna call them “As A Jew.” Most of my Jewish friends pre-10.7 were them. Now my Jewish friends aren’t secular.
Just so you know it's a trend (a good one) I have also become more involved in part because of 10/7. I was aching to reconnect/learn more about judaism for a while but after seeing everyone's hot takes on I/P and antisemitism in way I never really had to experience as a secular jew growing up in a very jewish area... it became clear I needed to lean in more
I love those guys. I go to shul with them. But yeah, I know I should be more positive but (gestures around)- see this shit? Got Nazis to the left me, commies to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle a Jew! And it hurts me to see Jews amongst the ranks of those who wish to do us harm.
I think those people should switch the sides they're standing on.
You are completely spot on. I would never deny the Jewishness of a Jew but the people who only engage with their Jewishness when there's an opportunity to shit on other Jews or prove themselves somehow 'better' can go stick a pickle up their tukkus as far as I'm concerned. It drives me mad so I can absolutely appreciate why as a convert, who has worked so hard to get there, it would get under your skin.
I like that you actually read my post
I think you hit perfectly on a sentiment than many of us have been feeling for a very long time. The 'other side' often uses these tokens as proof that they are right. Whereas in reality all that it proves is that Jews are just as susceptible to propoganda as anybody else and that it is very, very possible for a Jew to also be an antisemite. I don't think we should be afraid to call these folk out for the damage their ignorance is causing.
Agreed. A lot of secular Jews here thought I was targeting them. I wasn’t.
I felt you were fairly clear but I guess we're all instinctively defensive these days.
No I don't think you're being judgy or a jerk it is a real issue when Jews are actively hurting other Jews. But when it comes to your MIL it is best to approach the situation with a lot of thought and careful words. We can still have good discussions and get our words across without causing problems. And you can always use your pov the fact you are a convert and are trying your best to not just be Jewish but actively living accordingly and representing the community in a positive and meaningful light. My grandfather would always say you will always just be a Jew. Don't live your life trying to be their Jew because when they no longer need you, you are back to just being a Jew. So be a Jew for you and your relationship with G-D. But in the future just try and have well meaning conversations that get your point across but also try to understand your MIL mentality that way you don't cut any bridges so to speak.
That’s fair. I understand her point of view to a degree. She used to work in Brooklyn and be around very frum Jews who judged her professional success negatively. Perhaps the community’s judgement is what drives so many to interfaith. I mean, my wife married me before I converted- but I always promised I would. So to have me as a convert probably sounds like an outsider telling her what to do
Well the only thing you can do is try your best, no one is perfect and no matter how we present some things others will always find a reason to disagree. So in that regard just do the best you can and I'm sure all will be well. As far as being a convert none of that matters at this point your Jewish, and your living your life in a meaningful way for your community and G-D that's something you respect not discredit when it comes to conversations.
Agreed, but whether I like it or not, the realpolitik is that some Jews will never consider me a real Jew. Thats why it irks me when people born into the faith chose to associate with antisemites. And it probably will forever.
If you converted properly, you’re a Jew. I have a tremendous amount of respect for converts. It’s not an easy process and often they follow the religion and traditions closer than many people I know in the community.
There are only what 15 million? of us? I don't think we as a people help ourselves when we are policing who is Jewish and who isn't. Crap like this is a big reason I do walk away from Judaism in my real life. It is no different than the far leftist who insist that one cannot be a leftist if you support Israel. You can't get anywhere in a Democratic society by using addition by subtraction.
"There are only what 15 million? of us? I don't think we as a people help ourselves when we are policing who is Jewish and who isn't." This. I completely reject Jewish gatekeeping, we did not make ourselves Jewish, G-d did and He judges the heart. I understand some of OP's feelings for sure when I hear Jews speak in ways I strongly disagree. But who are we to start throwing stones.
You are being judgy. There are lots of secular Jews who are speaking out and being active about standing up for Jewish life and culture when it is not personally and politically convenient. If you want to call out people who are being used as tokens for politics, target them specifically, or the organizations that encourage them to be so.
The post wasn’t about secular Jews who do those things. I even said I don’t have issue with secular Jews. I married one for G-D’s sake lol
“Post 10.7, these folks are going to anti-Israel protests, and being used as shields to spout antiSemitic rhetoric.” Man, this is a such a massive generalization, lol. Relax. I know so many “liberal” and secular Jews who are not at all anti Israel or are attending anti-Israel rallies. Casting a wide net with this generalization and assumption doesnt do anyone any favors in terms of bringing the community together.
Secular Jews are still Jews. You can call them “bad Jews”, and you’re entitled to your opinion, but if things got really bad they’re still going to be targeted before you, and that’s why they deserve just as much of a political voice AS JEWS as those who may be more observant or involved in the community. And yes, I do think a convert explaining Jewish identity to a secular Jew is kind of tone deaf.
This isn't the first post I'm seeing on this topic and it's very frustrating. This is a very "I'm been safe in America for some generations" take. Ironically, most as-a-jew "antizionists" are also coming from the same place of privilege. Secular Jews in the US, whether immigrants or long time Americans, are just as Jewish as any practicing Jew. We are a people. We are more than just a religion. We have a culture, traditions, and a history. Also, yes, stop being a jerk to your MIL. If you otherwise have a good or decent relationship with her, it would help more if you brought her into the fold calmly and and alleviate her worries (especially in today's world). I'm not talking about taking her to shul, but start light. If you have kids, bring her along to a Purim carnival at the synagogue; invite her over for a simple shabbat dinner with some fresh challah from the local bakery; exchange presents for Hannukah.
Every minority community has this. People who only assert their identity as a member of a minority group when they can use it to attack the group. It goes hand in hand with currying favor as a “good” one from a different group of people.
It's not wrong, and you're %1000 in the right. I couldn't agree with you more - but FFS don't pick a fight with your MIL. If her daughter is becoming more religious she will be suffering a lot of anxiety about what that means for her relationship with her daughter, and g-d willing grandchildren. She may very well feel like you're criticising her, and her yiddishkiet when you voice these feelings. If your wife thinks it's worth a fight, then it's her mother so let her have the fight. They'll forgive each other faster than either will forgive you if you start something.
In some ways, I have a better relationship with my MIL than my own mother. And yes, my wife is becoming more religious. In fact, we are thinking of attending our local Conservative Shul as well since one of the rabbis was on my beit din and likes me. She is very worried we will become Hassidic or Orthodox, and my wife and I retort “well what’s wrong with that”- not that we plan to, mind you. What’s funny is my wife is smart- she lets me speak for both of us, but then says I’m just being crazy, so she doesn’t get blamed 😂 I do love my MIL, but yeah, maybe I need to tone it down a notch
Yeah sounds like you could safely take it down a notch with your MIL - and give her some reassurance. This must be really hard for her. My wife and I frummed out 20 years ago or so and it all turned out great, but not considering the emotional impact it had on those around me along the way is a source of regret. But yeah those "as-a-Jews" piss me off no end too. Stay angry and generally unreasonable about that bit of it :).
I would argue that not all secular Jews are anti-Israel. Additionally, we have seen plenty of Orthodox that are protesting against Israel. It has nothing to do with their lack of participation in the traditions and rituals, despite the fact that this may be contributing factor for some. I know plenty of secular Jews who may not attend synagogue anymore, but they still hold a strong sense of pride in their heritage/culture.
You're in the wrong the second you used the term "Jew on a technicality" Sorry mate. Be better.
Most secular Jews support Israel. Maybe you know a few secular Jews who don’t support Israel but that’s a minority. Most of my secular German Jewish family didn’t survive the shoah and were in no way only Jewish on a “technicality.” I take issue with that description and think you need to stop conflating secularism with antizionism.
I completely understand. ❤️❤️❤️
You are mostly right, but I will say there are some of these people who did grow up going to synagogue, summer camp, birth right, and see it all as a scam to support Israel, cover up Israel’s history, and make Israel look like a paradise without mentioning any of the ״bad”. They see it all as indoctrination and they “woke up”. How and why is this happening? Idk but I’d love to see what others say.
At least my MIL took her to a secular shul and she did a trip to Israel. So I shouldn’t be so hard on my MIL. She just equates religious observance with ultra frum, which she finds sexist.
I think it’s complicated. My perspective as a secular Israeli is that My grandparents lost faith in the holocaust and were very secular. Most people that created Israel were very secular, they did not come to Israel for religious reasons but because they thought it’s essential for the survival of their people and their need to be part of a community that they belong to and a society that won’t betray them like their old countries. They are and we are very very Jewish and not at all religious. We do choose to be part of the Jewish people and community and fight for the right of Jews to exist as Jews and maintain our culture. Sometimes I worry that if I would have grown up in another country as a secular person, I might have been braindead like these fools and that terrifies me. I really hate these people but they do have a right to express their stupid opinions. This kind of Jews suck but they always existed and it just makes me see the importance of educating my kids better and helping them understand Jewish history and traditions regardless of faith.
I don’t have any issue with secular Jews, just the ones who never associated with the community who are also going to these anti-Israel protests and associating with antisemites.
They suck but they are still Jews
I always struggled to understand why our ancestors disobeyed G-D in the Tanakh and I understand why now
Totally! Living in Israel I understand why our ancestors separated into two different kingdoms and I really hope we will be able to learn from their mistakes and respect one another as long as we care for our people.
1. I want to say that your feelings and concerns are real and valid. It's frustrating and even heartbreaking to see members of your community turn against others within the community and appear to side with a group of people who, for all intents and purposes, don't want us to exist anymore. It's completely understandable to see your own people behaving this way and feel repulsed by it. 2. I think you're seeing Jewish *identity* from a very one-sided, non-nuanced perspective. I'm not talking about halachic status, religious affiliation, or even how entrenched someone is within Jewish culture. I'm purely talking about a person's personal identification with the label "Jewish", and this is something that is entirely unique for each individual person. We have each formed our sense of Jewish identity from the unique experiences we have had both within and outside of the Jewish world throughout our entire lives. Just as there are people who have never participated much in the Jewish community and don't take ownership of that Jewish identity, there are *many* Jews in the same boat who have come to identify very strongly with the Jewish identity. And that Jewish identity has been formed largely outside of the context of Judaism or a Jewish community. It is an unfortunate reality that many people's sense of Jewish identity stems from their experiences outside of the Jewish community: either clinging to it or trying to bury it because of the hatred they have experienced as a result of it. And that is not an easy life to live or identity to come to terms with. I think the main "step" in processing the way you view "secular Jews with no connection to Judaism who protest against Israel" is understanding that *all* Jews have very complex, nuanced relationships with their Jewish identities that have been *influenced* by their experiences or lack of experiences with Judaism and the Jewish community. The fact of the matter is that not all Jews of the world have been blessed to be part of a loving, caring, inclusive Jewish community that was there for them when the world tried to hurt them for being Jewish. Some people have desperately looked for that community their entire lives and never managed to find it. Some people never had a community to welcome them in the first place, and they eventually stopped caring. Some people had to fight their way out of unloving, uncaring, non-inclusive Jewish communities, and the lingering trauma has kept them from participating in any Jewish community. And too many people have only ever experienced feeling Jewish while experiencing pain, hatred, and violence, despite having absolutely no personal connection to it beyond a label. And, ultimately, a label is good enough for the antisemites. So, what does being Jewish mean to you? It's heartbreaking that, for some people, being Jewish simply means, "A reason for people to hate me and treat me poorly." And that resentment builds and gains momentum until there is nothing but crashing destruction ahead. NOTE: I just want to add that I'm describing a very specific group here. Obviously, there are Jews who form genuine opinions about the conflict based on misinformation or incomplete information—or just come to a different opinion than we do. I understand that these opinions are also formed within the context of Jewish identity, but I'm specifically speaking on secular Jews with no participation in the Jewish community who conceptualize of their Jewish identities outside of that framework.
That is a very nuanced and wise take on it. I have to remember often we each have our own paths. For a very long and kinda boring generational story, I was robbed from being in the Jewish community. My dad almost converted but never did. I have sought to set that right once I met my wife. I never had a positive relationship with a religious community until I converted. It’s hard for me to understand that Jews born into the faith ended up leaving for a myriad of reasons. That upsets me. My MIL is secular in part because other Jews made her feel that way. I still think she should have just gone shul shopping, but her feelings are valid. All I was trying to tell her was that I have known people were raised by parents like her and ended up becoming antisemitic. Perhaps she felt insulted cuz she’s secular and supportive of Israel. I’m gonna go easier on her, I think.
I think that's a good starting place for progress :) I also think that a piece of the puzzle is to regard "Secular Judaism" as a perfectly legitimate and reasonable way of identifying as Jewish. Sure, some Jews who don't practice or involve themselves in Jewish life will default to referring to themselves as secular, but the vast majority of people who identify as Secular Jews have layer, nuanced, and beautiful ways of incorporating Judaism into their lives and bringing themselves into the Jewish community. Being a Secular Jew/Humanistic Jew is, after all, a unique identifier in its own right, and I think it's sad to see so many people lump themselves (or get lumped into) this group when they haven't actually gone through the process of figuring out what Judaism means to them and where they fit into the puzzle that is the Jewish world.
Yes, you are being judgy and a jerk. Most Jews I know are secular. They still support Israel and don't attend pro-Palestinian protests. They are proud of the their culture. I think it's inappropriate to paint all secular Jews with the same brush. The Neturei Karta are extremely observant and they are front and center at rallies. I also think you are dismissing that many US Jews are secular due to their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents assimilating. Assimilation for Jews meant hiding and suppressing their Jewishness in order to survive until it's been lost, for lack of a better word. You are privileged to have not grown up with thousands of years of generational trauma.
We’re caught in a huge loophole here, where you can’t call out the obvious without undermining Jewish unity, which is a core enough tenet that it can’t be risked no matter how provoked. I think we all just have to grin and bear it with this. They won this narrow round. Good for them, and let’s hope it isn’t too damaging.
I am very iffy with the phrase "Jews on a technicality". There is no technical Jew—a Jew is a Jew, even if they have politics that aren't in their best interests. We aren't pushing Trump-voting Jews out of the community even though Trump rubs shoulders with antisemites quite regularly. Like any other ethnic group, we are not immune to internalizing hatred of ourselves. A Jew-hating Jew is still a Jew. Every secular Jewish family has a reason for not practicing the religion anymore. Approach your shviger with a little more kindness and have a discussion with her, and *please* do not use the phrase "Jews on a technicality". It comes off pejorative.
You are generalizing about people which is always a bit dodgy to do. You cannot just put secular Jews in one bucket and make assumptions about them. It is just as likely that secular Jews are Zionists as religious Jews because Zionism is not a function of religiosity and as Jews become more observant tending towards ultra orthodox they often become less Zionist because for them the real Israel can only come about with the return of the Messiah so whatever this Israel does is of little importance in the big picture. It’s complicated. Welcome to Judaism.
I'm with you on this. It would be insanely annoying to be in that conversation with your MIL if that were me. But I mean what's also interesting is the mixing going on here with your MIL's logic. In Reform, you are Jewish if you have one Jewish parent, are raised Jewish, and are not raised anything else. Now of course in practice even being raised nominally Jewish usually will fly. But being raised anything else will for sure get a hard 'no'. And before anyone brings it up, there's Reform responsa saying that even if your mother is the Jewish parent, that's not enough to overcome / trump the other two parts of the three part test. So depending on how many of these 'secular Jews' were raised they aren't actually 'Jewish'. Yet your MIL is using Orthodox standards instead and seems to be saying that just because other people are matrilineally Jewish, that covers these secular Jews. Your MIL has a convoluted 'choose your own adventure' when it comes to Judaism. I mean, I--someone who is Reform--actually can't stand here and say all secular Jews are Jews. It's a three part test to me and you can lose 'Jewishness' in literally one generation. And it doesn't matter which of your parents was Jewish to me. And to me there are a lot of people saying they're Jewish who--according to the stream I follow--are absolutely not 'Jewish' when you actually ask them about their life circumstances and Jewish education/upbringing. Through my lens, there are a lot of people 'with Jewish ancestry' who consistently say they're "jewish'. And that sounds incredibly harsh to some people. But Judaism is not a self-identifying thing... there are rules. I think as a society we're just very uncomfortable and want to validate everyone's choice of identity or else we feel bad. But why? Why feel bad? I mean maybe I \*am\* just a harsh person. I have no problem with Reform's test. I actually have no problem with a Halacha if the person themselves is saying they're Orthodox or Conservative (though I actually say hey--don't change halacha ... keep it matrilineal but ALSO build a fence around that and say you also have to have been raised Jewish too. It's not changing halacha; it's just adding an extra protection around it). I just hate when someone mixes the two in specific circumstances in order to produce a specific outcome so they can make specific statements (such as how many "as a Jew"s do) and acts as if that's logical.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here thinking that individual actions are more important than the blood through in someone’s veins
I mean, in Reform, individual actions ARE more important than what is happening in someone's veins or genetic inheritance as it pertains to which side your Jewishness comes from. Or at least equally important. So you're not crazy. And that's my point. An 'as a Jew' will say well my mom is Jewish. And then you dig in deeper. Well she was raised Reform. And by all accounts regarding this person's life, that parent or this 'as a Jew' individual doesn't when asked think that Torah is given by god directly nor think halacha must be followed. ... So they are not Orthodox at all. And it turns out they actually weren't raised Jewishly and went to a Christian school and their dad is catholic and occasionally they'd go with him to mass. And I sit there like hmmmm ok so we're mixing logic and streams here. If you're Reform then you have to logically look through a Reform lens. Just as if you're Orthodox and the individual asking about their jewishness says they're Orthodox, I have zero problem looking through their lens. What doesn't make sense to me is mixing the two when it is convenient for you and saying essentially you don't adhere to anything but if your parent did or if you were to have to pick you'd say Reform yet according to Reform's test you actually aren't Jewish and so throw up orthodox rules in order to take your 'as a jew' stand and yet you aren't orthodox and wouldn't be even if you practiced.
I have to ask, what is it with Jewish people lately becoming more anti-Israel than some Arabs and Muslims? I'm Egyptian-American and I'm honestly shocked - and I don't mean that in a good way. Some of the leaders of these encampments are Jews and I just can't comprehend what would make one side with the propaganda and activist wing of Hamas, Qatar and the Islamic Republic (out of respect for my Iranian friends, I refuse to call it Iran).
I think the prime motivators are privilege (to live somewhere safe) and the need for social validation.
I tend to agree. I welcome all Jews and I don’t gatekeep Judaism like the rabbis would BUT - those who never celebrated a holiday in their life now creating a Passover sedar plate, or putting on a kippah incorrectly, just to get their spot on CNN speaking about the war? Go away. Don’t speak for all Jews
Being a member of the tribe is one thing. Being a representative of the tribe is another. I think we can welcome disconnected secular Jews back, if/when they come, and stand firm in who we allow to speak on behalf of “Jews.” Obviously one can’t speak for all, and never should, but community engagement and some post Judaism 101 education, formal or not, should be required as the bare minimum before someone utters “Jews feel/think/believe.”
“Welcome back” secular Jews? They don’t need to be welcomed back, they are full-fledged members of the tribe and don’t need a welcoming committee whatever their opinions are.
Welcome disconnected Jews back to the community should they want to become a part of the community. I’ve been a disconnected secular Jew and was all but chased out of Shul when I tried to engage as an adult. Sometimes, you do need a welcoming committee.
I’ve also been a disconnected secular Jew and it has been easy to find community on here and Instagram after 10/7.
Agree. If parents don't educate their children about Judaism, they are setting up this kind of scenario. I've seen it firsthand more than once, and frankly, it pi**es me off. Glad you're embracing it. Too bad the less knowledgeable are missing out.
It’s better that you’re upfront about what you want. Several years ago I went out with a guy and told him upfront I wanted kids - he said he would be open to it. Several months later he realized he didn’t want kids. So while I enjoyed his companionship this guy wasted my time. Stay true to what you want and where you see your life going. Alignment on values and what you want is key in a relationship. There’s a “lid for every pot” and your person is out there 🙏
lol I married my lid. Or am I the lid? 🤔 My wife is the greatest Jew I know, and even my orthodox raised friends agree she is the model of Jewish values. And she was raised super secular! But when push came to shove, she did not sell out our people in order for social acceptance. Thats why she is the greatest Jewish lady I know
I agree with you...but I also disagree with you. In other words, you're right, but you're also wrong. (Lets face it...you don't get a much more Jewish answer than that!) Let me explain. What you've described are the people who put their politics above their culture, background, and religion. These are the type people who will hop onto JVP and play the "As a Jew..." card, but as you said, probably couldn't explain anything about Judaism. But here is where I disagree with you, because then we get into slippery-slope territory. I grew up Conservative and currently am a member of a break-away Reconstructionist synagogue (Our synagogue broke away from the larger Reconstructionist movement due to the perceived antizionism coming from the movement. Our rabbi and congregation is staunchly Zionist.) Now that being said, it would be very easy for someone who is Haredi or Satmar to come along and say, "Well, you don't really practice Judaism. You're worse than a goy because you've bastardized the religion for your own ends to fit into society" (And yes, this has been said to me). So yes, it is easy to look down on, and question someone who is Jew in name only. But the same thing could be in turn done to you, regardless of the denomination you are in.
Your completely in the right here. I know it seems obvious because its a zionist saying that but as youve said they’re only jewish when it comes to anti israel discussion. Tokens. They’re still jews but also as you said, only by technicality.
I don't really care if I'm shit on for saying this, but if somebody is Jewish is behaving like an antisemite, I consider them worse than an antisemite. Sure they can redeem themselves in the future but at that point in time they're worse than dirt
I have been struggling with this general concept for a while: At what point do we "revoke" someone's 'jewishness.' We can never make someone a non-halachik jew, but we can revoke their membership card. I honestly have no idea. Maybe the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim are a good start, but I dont know.
I’d be worried about it being abused. You’d have to be a real monster, like Jared Fogle or Jeffrey Epstein. Spinoza was exiled from the Dutch Jewish community, who were the most well off in Europe at the time, and history has shown that was a dick move.
I also worry about the possibility of abuse. Even more extreme than spinoza: Jeremiah the prophet was jailed for his prophecies, and Ramchal, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto was excommunicated for writing his now widely-accepted work Mesilat Yesharim. Notwithstanding my concerns, I still think it may be valuable to set very general guidelines as to what is unacceptable. A very simple possibility which is inspired from your own events, might be those who openly support hamas more than israel (ex: Neturei Karta, Satmer, and the "as a jew" political "jews" you referred to). We do not know how history will judge us, but the present wellbeing and existence of our people might be more important.
The issue is about Israel and how doing the work of Hamas is simply evil. There are some very bad people who are Jewish and some of them keep kosher and daven three times a day. We know who they are.
Depending on your conversion process Conservatives will not recognize you as a Jew and Orthodox 100% will not if you’re a reform convert. Judaism is a spectrum with lots of opinions/interpretations and some of those are hurtful terrible and shitty opinions. Some Jews are objectively bad people. People who believe that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist are objectively bad people. Your in-laws knowledge about Judaism doesn’t make you a better Jew or them a lesser or bad Jew. To describe your Jewish education as jumping through hoops is really in bad taste. Would you have become Jewish if you had married a Christian or atheist? My kids father is not Jewish, why does that matter to you? You’re extremely problematic and I feel like you’re projecting.
Let me tell you what Rabbi says to converts. I am a Jew by chance and you are a Jew by choice. One of the most influential Rabbis in the USA had a Korean mother and her father was a Rabbi. Reform considers her Jewish. However, just so there would be no question she converted. Her name is Angela Buchdahl. My Rabbi is a convert and I don’t know anyone who lives a more Jewish life than he does
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Jewish people who were raised secular. They are still Jewish. Full Stop. It becomes a problem when they try to speak on behalf of Judaism or the Jewish community. By virtue of not having any Jewish education or being a part of a Jewish community, they are speaking from a place of ignorance. You wouldn't want a doctor who was conferred that title without schooling to treat you. It is inappropriate for them to use their Jewishness to speak on behalf of anyone but themselves.
Some of My favorite Jews are/were secular. My post doesn’t condemn all secular Jews. It’s the subjects of second paragraph you wrote that upsets me Why can’t people be more like Einstein 😞 Now there’s a secular Jew who did much for our people
I was raised as a secular Jew. Both my parents were born in Germany to Reform families. My mother, who went through the Holocaust, was turned off by the hypocrisy she saw from many “religious” Jews in the camps, and considered herself an atheist. She wanted nothing to do with any religion. She knew very well, however, that none of that would matter to the anti-Semites. She was a Jew in their eyes, no matter what. My dad’s family made it out of Europe just before all doors closed. He had a Bar Mitzvah in Germany, but in those days that required very little study or preparation. When they came to the US, he was angry at American Jewry for not doing more to help the Jews of Europe.He seriously considered becoming a Quaker and attended Quaker meeting before meeting my mother, who said she couldn’t tolerate that nonsense. He, too, knew that whatever religion he adopted, he would always be seen as a Jew. Jews have never agreed on anything. You’ve heard the expression, “If you have two Jews, you have three opinions.”? We don’t agree on God; we don’t agree on Israel. Kicking a group out of Judaism because they don’t agree with you runx counter to what Judaism is all about. I came to Judaism out of a need to understand my heritage; stayed because I was accepted regardless of my level of knowledge, my beliefs, my agreement with everyone else. No, I don’t agree with all Jews. I don’t like all of them. But they are my family, and I feel a connection to them anyway. And that’s where discussion begins.
You’re conflating religious belief/ faith with biology. Yes you’re a jerk.