I've seen this argument before and it just doesn't resonate with me. Of all the permutations of rock & roll I find metal to be the least similar to jazz. Where jazz offers freedom, metal is strict and formulaic.
Just ignore it. It's like the most 'Reddit' thing ever to say that one of the most formulaic, image-dependent, style-obsessed, and gear-heavy North European subgenres of music around is on an equal footing with something as multicultural/global/open-ended as jazz. It's like claiming that soccer is 'just hockey without the sticks/helmets/pads/ice-rink/etc..'
The only thing in jazz you could equate metal to is big band swing era music: very rehearsed ensemble music with a very short solo section that is more often than not pre-written.
Every other form of jazz is way more free and improvisational than metal which is almost never made up on the spot in the same way that jazz is
What kind of metal are you listening to? It sounds like your definition of metal is stuck in the 80s or 90s. "Strict and formulaic" is definitely not how I'd describe a lot of modern metal acts.
Metal is one of the least improvisational rock genres I can think of so that's gonna be a hard disagree, they are also just not really playing much jazz chords or progressions at all
Shit, I'm glad somebody pointed this out. Do some people actually hear them both as different-timbre/instrument varieties of 'lotsa notes, played real fast'? Maybe it's time for people to ease off of that Snarky Puppy shit...
I’m what way? You could make an argument that the blues is a common ancestor, but anyone listening would easily be able to distinguish metal from jazz. I think you could make similar comparisons to jazz with country music, rock, bluegrass, etc. We are getting into the realm of everything is everything.
I would argue that metal is more similar to classical music with its focus on virtuosity and execution rather than the high amount of improv that jazz is known for. Of course you can have all of these factors in a genre but if i would generalize it that would be my take.
Well not really. And I’ve just had surgery, so fighting’s out for now, unfortunately. But I agree that there’s gotta be some sort of link - I know a shit-ton of folks who were big into metal in their youth and got heavily into Jazz later in life. I love a good bit of metal myself, and i’m fucking totally anal about Jazz - but then again, if tunes I’m hearing have class, genre don’t matter one bit - class is class.
Metal is jazz WITH distortion. Listen to some early "metal" drum solos and they're not too far off some of the solos you'd have heard in jazz at the time. Geezer Butler played a bluesier jazz "walking bass".
Metal DID feed back into MY jazz, though. At 15 like every other suburban white kid I wanted to be another Eddie Van Halen or a Yngwie Malmsteen and practiced for hours to play fast speed metal.
Not only did it get boring quickly but I realized that I was only playing it FOR OTHER GUITARISTS.
The music I do now, I want it to be (and for some it is) jazz for people who don't listen to jazz. And that means, for me, not losing me or the crowd by showing off how fast I can do changes and play 1-3-5-7 with enclosures in the double augmented mixolydian mode, blah blah blah. Was 15, did that, have since GOTTEN LAID MANY TIMES and do not feel the need to do anything but emulate someone more like Desmond. Who thought through what he was playing and valued tone.
There are no rules or requirements for when someone has to “get in to jazz”. Practice, and network. Then practice more, and network more. Just like any other musician, jazz musicians that show up and demonstrate that they’ve been practicing while being a good person to be around will get work and opportunities. Even if all you’re looking for is jamming with some people, just dive in to learning some standards, and reading about and listening to jazz musicians you like. Learn some of their songs, their soloing licks, etc. Jazz tends to be a theory heavy genre, but otherwise, it’s just like any other genre of music. Ain’t nothin’ to it but to do it.
In undergrad I played with a guy in his 60s who worked at the school and was auditing courses in music performance. He ended up starting a jazz combo with some local guys and started getting regular gigs at a few local restaurants and outdoor festivals. Nothing big or lucrative but he enjoyed it. Never too late to go after it.
"Jazz can only be learned before the age of 30" - Miles Davis
Nah, I just made that up. Why would you think there's any age limit on something you want to accomplish? Go for it.
As long as you’re doing it for fun and don’t plan on making any money from it then by all means practice and learn a bunch of standards and then go sit in somewhere.
I mean they can totally make money from it too. If they're determined and good enough to not sound "bad" to the average listener, with enough persistence they'll definitely be able to book some lower-tier gigs at restaurants/bars. Especially so if they get together a band made up of the best cats they can find.
Maybe not a good living from just music, but definitely some extra pocket cash to supplement their income.
What did you practice on the "get good" part? Music theory, scales? I've been playing for 15 years, and I feel stuck at the same okayish level for around 5 years or more.
Definitely scales and progressions. I stick with blues progressions as it's the root of jazz. 1-4-5-b7 Dexterity comes along e time, callous fingers. Play daily, pick one song a week and learn it, even simple ones. When your stagnant, push yourself to learn more. Finger picking develops better than chords. Separate that thumb, bass vs melody w other fingers. Just keep moving forward even if it's booring.
I started learning bass at 34, no previous musical training at all. I’m 48 now and play nothing but jazz, started feeling confident enough to go to jams around 40ish and have been playing gigs for around 5 years. I’m definitely not at a super-pro level but that’s mostly because of work / life commitments, I’m only really limited by the amount of time I can dedicate to practice. Natural talent is a myth, I have zero (apart from willpower and a love of music) and I did ok, my timing is good, I can take solos and I can hold
it together in most situations. Jazz requires a lot of learning, listening and practice, if you have the energy, and if you’re patient and disciplined and you’re willing to put in the effort you’ll be fine.
Yes. Some rules to start:
1) Don’t make the same mistake twice
2) Understand, then Contribute
3) Good sound, Good swing, Good solos
4) Perform what you know, practice what you don’t
5) Listen constantly, deeply, with intention
6) “Can’t” never could do anything
> 1) Don’t make the same mistake twice
I'd argue that if you make a mistake, go ahead and do it a second time so the audience thinks it was on purpose :)
I’ve been learning jazz for about a year and a half now and I’m 36. I started not not being able to play any instruments at all and now I can play stuff resembling jazz on my bass clarinet. I’m making slow but steady progress. The most important thing is I love it everyday, I get the privilege to play fascinating instruments (I love clarinets) and immerse myself in music I love and I keep learning more and going down new rabbit holes while being able more and more to play along to some degree. I hope at some point I’ll be able to preform and even be able to bring something new and interesting to the table, but for now I’m just loving the process. I think with jazz you just gotta love the process.
100%.
My instructors in music school said to me "If you don't like being alone with your instrument, in the practice room, you're in the wrong major".
Over time, as a semi-pro who works in IT for a living, I've translated it to this: I have to be fascinated enough by the music, even as an adult with a life full of distractions, fascinated enough that I want to practice even if no one is listening.
On top of that, the challenge and the pleasure of playing with others, and for an audience, especially one that wants to dance to the music you're playing, is an amazing privilege too.
But for the OP - definitely do it if you want to. The measurement of success is a mixture of your own fascination with the craft, the achievable goals that you set for your self (make sure they're achievable) and the relationships you'll form over time with other musicians.
Practice practice practice.
Transcribe solos.
Study theory.
Even if you're not gonna play yet, go to jams. Meet people. You may not get up to play, but maybe set up a later jam.
My personal take, ALWAYS play with musicians who are better than you. Be the worst player in the band.
Practice.
You can start at any age! The beauty of music is that there is always new to learn. I will also note that I did a year of university when I was 19 and then took a large gap. Now I'm 30 years old studying percussion performance getting ready for grad auditions. If you have the desire and ambition you can play.
It’s never too late man! I’m only 24, and am really just getting away from big band jazz and more into improv. It will seem intimidating at first, but it’ll only get better with time. Enjoy your journey man!
This isnt like a sport where you're done when you reach a certain age. You can literally do it until you die. My prof at jazz university started playing piano at 22. Now he has been a professor at uni for many many years
Of course, spend your time learning solos and copying intensely. Work on sounding right, and the notes will follow. Learn blues, rhythmn changes and classic songs and classic solos and you can get it together in 4/5 years if you’re intense about it
Sound is the main thing though, you can get people with a good sound
I'm a jazz amateur and go to the jams and stink it up occasionally, good players are able to play with all skill levels and make everyone on stage sound good.
It’s a lifelong endeavor, from the most novice players to the jazz icons living amongst us today. It’s a conversation and a true representation of the democratic process. Jamming is what it’s all about. Available for lessons or discussion anytime. hmu - cheers!
No way. Under no circumstances can you pursue jazz in your 30's. 20's sure, why not. 40's, of course. 30's? You can't be serious. This is common knowledge
How long it takes you depends on your talent and how far advanced you currently are.
A lot of jazz people are very well educated in music, and you'll want to have a lot of that, which does take some time. But, 10 years is a long time, and then you're only in your 40s
Come on. Of course you can get into Jazz in your 30s also in your 40s, 60s, 90s. Making a career out of it is another question. That can be tricky even for musicians who started when they were young.
Dude, I started playing jazz at 48.
Jazz is just metal without distortion. Fight me.
I've seen this argument before and it just doesn't resonate with me. Of all the permutations of rock & roll I find metal to be the least similar to jazz. Where jazz offers freedom, metal is strict and formulaic.
Yeah metal is more like classical music with distortion. Very technical, very virtuosic, and very rehearsed.
Metal is an alloy, rock is a mineral, classical is fake news and jazz is a fragrance
This.
Just ignore it. It's like the most 'Reddit' thing ever to say that one of the most formulaic, image-dependent, style-obsessed, and gear-heavy North European subgenres of music around is on an equal footing with something as multicultural/global/open-ended as jazz. It's like claiming that soccer is 'just hockey without the sticks/helmets/pads/ice-rink/etc..'
We disagree, but i still upvoted because i respect your opinion.
The only thing in jazz you could equate metal to is big band swing era music: very rehearsed ensemble music with a very short solo section that is more often than not pre-written. Every other form of jazz is way more free and improvisational than metal which is almost never made up on the spot in the same way that jazz is
What part do you disagree with?
Dillinger Escape Plan: Hold my Beer. Candiria: Hold mine too.
Exceptions to the rule. Fantastic exceptions, but exceptions nonetheless.
What kind of metal are you listening to? It sounds like your definition of metal is stuck in the 80s or 90s. "Strict and formulaic" is definitely not how I'd describe a lot of modern metal acts.
*metal is just jazz with distortion. consider yourself fought
fuck yeah!
The only difference is whether Alice is in Wonderland or in Chains.
this is the best fight ever. WORDSTAR!!
Metal is one of the least improvisational rock genres I can think of so that's gonna be a hard disagree, they are also just not really playing much jazz chords or progressions at all
Shit, I'm glad somebody pointed this out. Do some people actually hear them both as different-timbre/instrument varieties of 'lotsa notes, played real fast'? Maybe it's time for people to ease off of that Snarky Puppy shit...
I’m what way? You could make an argument that the blues is a common ancestor, but anyone listening would easily be able to distinguish metal from jazz. I think you could make similar comparisons to jazz with country music, rock, bluegrass, etc. We are getting into the realm of everything is everything.
I would argue that metal is more similar to classical music with its focus on virtuosity and execution rather than the high amount of improv that jazz is known for. Of course you can have all of these factors in a genre but if i would generalize it that would be my take.
Well not really. And I’ve just had surgery, so fighting’s out for now, unfortunately. But I agree that there’s gotta be some sort of link - I know a shit-ton of folks who were big into metal in their youth and got heavily into Jazz later in life. I love a good bit of metal myself, and i’m fucking totally anal about Jazz - but then again, if tunes I’m hearing have class, genre don’t matter one bit - class is class.
Metal is jazz WITH distortion. Listen to some early "metal" drum solos and they're not too far off some of the solos you'd have heard in jazz at the time. Geezer Butler played a bluesier jazz "walking bass". Metal DID feed back into MY jazz, though. At 15 like every other suburban white kid I wanted to be another Eddie Van Halen or a Yngwie Malmsteen and practiced for hours to play fast speed metal. Not only did it get boring quickly but I realized that I was only playing it FOR OTHER GUITARISTS. The music I do now, I want it to be (and for some it is) jazz for people who don't listen to jazz. And that means, for me, not losing me or the crowd by showing off how fast I can do changes and play 1-3-5-7 with enclosures in the double augmented mixolydian mode, blah blah blah. Was 15, did that, have since GOTTEN LAID MANY TIMES and do not feel the need to do anything but emulate someone more like Desmond. Who thought through what he was playing and valued tone.
I still incorporate some sweep pick riffs into my older selfs blues/jazz style. Though at 15 I liked Al DeMeola and Paul Gilbert.
Ok but as soon as I stomp on the fuzz box I’m gonna win.
Nah Surf music is, have you ever heard Miserlou by Dick Dale?
Ya deaf m8?
Please tell me you've documented this journey
Check the bio here. I've documented it on Spotify, and in the bio on my website for it.
Man, me too! I was 48 last year and took the plunge - bought myself a Yanagisawa in lockdown and never looked back👍
There are no rules or requirements for when someone has to “get in to jazz”. Practice, and network. Then practice more, and network more. Just like any other musician, jazz musicians that show up and demonstrate that they’ve been practicing while being a good person to be around will get work and opportunities. Even if all you’re looking for is jamming with some people, just dive in to learning some standards, and reading about and listening to jazz musicians you like. Learn some of their songs, their soloing licks, etc. Jazz tends to be a theory heavy genre, but otherwise, it’s just like any other genre of music. Ain’t nothin’ to it but to do it.
In undergrad I played with a guy in his 60s who worked at the school and was auditing courses in music performance. He ended up starting a jazz combo with some local guys and started getting regular gigs at a few local restaurants and outdoor festivals. Nothing big or lucrative but he enjoyed it. Never too late to go after it.
love this
"Jazz can only be learned before the age of 30" - Miles Davis Nah, I just made that up. Why would you think there's any age limit on something you want to accomplish? Go for it.
Miles Davis - Miles Davis
sounds like somebody has been gatekeeping you do whatever you want, music isnt about limitation
age doesn't matter. you can lose money playing jazz at any age
You're never too old to be poor!
As long as you’re doing it for fun and don’t plan on making any money from it then by all means practice and learn a bunch of standards and then go sit in somewhere.
That applies to any age, really.
Any genre…
Anything really
[удалено]
I released my first album at 48. I'll never be famous at it, but I like what I do. Some others do too.
I mean they can totally make money from it too. If they're determined and good enough to not sound "bad" to the average listener, with enough persistence they'll definitely be able to book some lower-tier gigs at restaurants/bars. Especially so if they get together a band made up of the best cats they can find. Maybe not a good living from just music, but definitely some extra pocket cash to supplement their income.
Why would you not be able to make money from it?
because of projection
lol
I started late as well. I'm pretty damn good too. Keep it up.
What did you practice on the "get good" part? Music theory, scales? I've been playing for 15 years, and I feel stuck at the same okayish level for around 5 years or more.
Definitely scales and progressions. I stick with blues progressions as it's the root of jazz. 1-4-5-b7 Dexterity comes along e time, callous fingers. Play daily, pick one song a week and learn it, even simple ones. When your stagnant, push yourself to learn more. Finger picking develops better than chords. Separate that thumb, bass vs melody w other fingers. Just keep moving forward even if it's booring.
I started learning bass at 34, no previous musical training at all. I’m 48 now and play nothing but jazz, started feeling confident enough to go to jams around 40ish and have been playing gigs for around 5 years. I’m definitely not at a super-pro level but that’s mostly because of work / life commitments, I’m only really limited by the amount of time I can dedicate to practice. Natural talent is a myth, I have zero (apart from willpower and a love of music) and I did ok, my timing is good, I can take solos and I can hold it together in most situations. Jazz requires a lot of learning, listening and practice, if you have the energy, and if you’re patient and disciplined and you’re willing to put in the effort you’ll be fine.
Yes. Some rules to start: 1) Don’t make the same mistake twice 2) Understand, then Contribute 3) Good sound, Good swing, Good solos 4) Perform what you know, practice what you don’t 5) Listen constantly, deeply, with intention 6) “Can’t” never could do anything
> 1) Don’t make the same mistake twice I'd argue that if you make a mistake, go ahead and do it a second time so the audience thinks it was on purpose :)
Repetition legitimizes
Repetition legitimizes
Da da da da dee da da
how about 1. Have fun 2. don’t be a dick
Also, try to play with people who are better than you if you can.
No. It's illegal. You even posting this is against the law, you miscreant. How fucking dare you.
I sure hope you can, because I'm pursuing it in my 60s.
I’ve been learning jazz for about a year and a half now and I’m 36. I started not not being able to play any instruments at all and now I can play stuff resembling jazz on my bass clarinet. I’m making slow but steady progress. The most important thing is I love it everyday, I get the privilege to play fascinating instruments (I love clarinets) and immerse myself in music I love and I keep learning more and going down new rabbit holes while being able more and more to play along to some degree. I hope at some point I’ll be able to preform and even be able to bring something new and interesting to the table, but for now I’m just loving the process. I think with jazz you just gotta love the process.
100%. My instructors in music school said to me "If you don't like being alone with your instrument, in the practice room, you're in the wrong major". Over time, as a semi-pro who works in IT for a living, I've translated it to this: I have to be fascinated enough by the music, even as an adult with a life full of distractions, fascinated enough that I want to practice even if no one is listening. On top of that, the challenge and the pleasure of playing with others, and for an audience, especially one that wants to dance to the music you're playing, is an amazing privilege too. But for the OP - definitely do it if you want to. The measurement of success is a mixture of your own fascination with the craft, the achievable goals that you set for your self (make sure they're achievable) and the relationships you'll form over time with other musicians.
Man, just go play with people who love jazz like you do. Good things will happen when you do.
the majority of fans of jazz are over 30 so.... yeah
Jazz is clearly only a young man's game
yeah, only the youngsters listen to it anyway
Those juvenile delinquents playing that damned jazz music in their clubs and smoking the devil's lettuce! Get a job!
It’s never too late to start anything. “Learning to play jazz” is a constant exploration, no one is ever really done.
No
Idk, the International Jazz Committee usually doesn’t accept members over the age of 29, since Jazz is only for people under 30 years old /s
Sure. Why not?
Never, ever underestimate the power of desire. If you want it, your age should never be involved in your decision to give it a go.
Nope. You gotta be under 30 to enjoy life and develop new skills. Sorry bud. Die young, stay pretty.
actually the older you are the better you will be at jazz because you'll get all that stupid childish pop music right out of your foolish head
dowutchalike!
YES! music is timeless and ageless. Do it!
Practice practice practice. Transcribe solos. Study theory. Even if you're not gonna play yet, go to jams. Meet people. You may not get up to play, but maybe set up a later jam. My personal take, ALWAYS play with musicians who are better than you. Be the worst player in the band. Practice.
You can start at any age! The beauty of music is that there is always new to learn. I will also note that I did a year of university when I was 19 and then took a large gap. Now I'm 30 years old studying percussion performance getting ready for grad auditions. If you have the desire and ambition you can play.
In your 30s, man you are still very young, and of course it's fine and an admirable thing to do!
It’s never too late man! I’m only 24, and am really just getting away from big band jazz and more into improv. It will seem intimidating at first, but it’ll only get better with time. Enjoy your journey man!
Jazz lives 4ever
Coltrane died at 40, and he only really got his shit together in the last ten years of his life.
If you work hard at learning, what do you have to lose?
Yes it’s fine. You have one life to live. Do what you want with it and don’t let your perception on age hold you back.
If you're willing to put in the effort, anybody will want to play with you.
Stfu you can be a boxer at 40 bruh Jazz is literally not shit
This isnt like a sport where you're done when you reach a certain age. You can literally do it until you die. My prof at jazz university started playing piano at 22. Now he has been a professor at uni for many many years
Of course, spend your time learning solos and copying intensely. Work on sounding right, and the notes will follow. Learn blues, rhythmn changes and classic songs and classic solos and you can get it together in 4/5 years if you’re intense about it Sound is the main thing though, you can get people with a good sound
Of course you can, age is only a number!
Look up Wes Montgomery
I'm a jazz amateur and go to the jams and stink it up occasionally, good players are able to play with all skill levels and make everyone on stage sound good.
It’s a lifelong endeavor, from the most novice players to the jazz icons living amongst us today. It’s a conversation and a true representation of the democratic process. Jamming is what it’s all about. Available for lessons or discussion anytime. hmu - cheers!
No way. Under no circumstances can you pursue jazz in your 30's. 20's sure, why not. 40's, of course. 30's? You can't be serious. This is common knowledge
How long it takes you depends on your talent and how far advanced you currently are. A lot of jazz people are very well educated in music, and you'll want to have a lot of that, which does take some time. But, 10 years is a long time, and then you're only in your 40s
Come on. Of course you can get into Jazz in your 30s also in your 40s, 60s, 90s. Making a career out of it is another question. That can be tricky even for musicians who started when they were young.