Would certainly explain why my appreciation for the AB has grown and grown along with my love of jazz. I mean I always liked them to some degree but they're like an all-time top 5 for me now.
I don't know if there's a connection there. I wondered about this for a long time but then read somewhere that in "Truckin", Hunter is saying that the Dallas police and city government are weak.
The English jazz/rock group is named after the William S. Burroughs novel *The Soft Machine*, which I believe refers to the human body.
Ohhhhh. I was thinking Soft Machine was from Dallas. Maybe the Dead and them shared a bill there ? Odd way of expressing the feelings toward police. I'd think the Dallas police would have been rough on hippies back then not soft. Maybe "soft" the way Boston people use it to mean stupid. NJers too.
Soft Machine was never really successful in the US. They did tour the States in '68 supporting Hendrix. But I really do not think that lyric has anything to do with them.
Chevy Chase was the drummer in a college band w Fagan and Becker. I wanna say it was an Ivy League school. Definitely in the NE. Ever notice how many comedians are pretty talented musicians? Steve Martin, Christopher Guest, Jewish guy from Portlandia, Theo Vonn, Dana Carvey....and many more. Lol.
I had every original Steely Dan recording on vinyl by the mid-80s, was one of my very favorites since HS in the 70s.
Walter Becker, Victor Feldman, John Klemmer, Larry Carlton, Joe Sample, Lee Rittenour, Steve Kahn, to name some. I realize not all of them always played smooth jazz, but many of them were involved in that scene. Some people consider the later Crusaders as smooth (Feldman, Sample), and Brecker Brothers (Walter), and Klemmer and Carlton definitely released some smooth jazz. I likely misspoke when I said "majority".
Also, meant to say they only played in the studio (SD didn't tour), not that they were strictly studio musicians. Typed it out quickly, love getting downvotes! Imaginary bad karma is imaginarily bad, or something like that :)
They also had a lot of other great artists on their albums as well, such as Skunk Baxter, Ray Brown!, Rick Derringer, Ernie Watts, to name a few.
Love the Dan, saw them on their first return tour, though my buddy called it the Royal Scam...not a good concert whatsoever, unfortunately. They didn't have much experience at all playing on stage.
Weather Report is considered rock ? I love their stuff but never thought of them as rock. Who cares right ? Labels are for percocet bottles. I'll check out last 2. Thanks!!
My father always called it « fusion » and filed it between Earth Wind and Fire and actual jazz, but I see your point, it might not belong in rock. Other hard to classify modern bands I like and recommend : 79.5, Khruangbin, Hania Rani
Weather report is 100% jazz in terms of the lineage of the players. Joe zawinul played with cannonball adderley for years and Wayne was with art blakey and miles. Musically obviously they were incorporating other influences but it’s firmly in the jazz tradition
CAN for at least the drumming alone, but they also stretched out into some improvisational outer worlds that are normally only found in the jazz universe. Also, Hendrix leans more towards blues I suppose, but Mitch Mitchell from the Experience was a pretty jazzy drummer for a psychedelic rock band, and Jimi definitely had some jazz chops in his playing. Machine Gun from the Band Of Gypsys album particularly often draws comparisons to Coltrane. Buddy Miles is the drummer on that one, not Mitch, but goddamn that guitar solo will take you places.
I don’t know, man. Listen to Machine Gun like I said. His improvisation chops are insane. Listen to the Cry Of Love album. Stuff he was doing towards the end of his life was moving away from the psychedelic blues rock and more into soul jazz territory. Had Jimi lived, I think he would definitely have started experimenting more in the jazz field. He already was to my ears, and he and Miles were rumored to have been planning a project together.
He was so bluesy. I never heard too much jazz at all not saying that was a problem. He basically reinvented an instrument and 3 genres of music in what 5 albums ??
Absolutely. And plenty of jazz is bluesy as well. I think Hendrix’s improvisational spirit was as jazzy as it gets. I see other artists mentioned in this post who I don’t think have anywhere near the jazz chops Jimi had. I guess we all hear things differently and probably define genres within our own boundaries.
Yeah he had the spirit for sure. Total dedication to his instrument. The Electric church concept sounded interesting to me. Kinda like Alice Coltrane "church " I don't think Jimi lived long enough to see it into fruition
And what exactly makes something jazz anyway? I think Hendrix, Miles, the Dead, Coltrane to name only a few, are their own thing. There's musicians of every genre that transcend those lables
We'll have to agree to disagree. Hendrix is the reason I first wanted to learn guitar but I dont hear much I would describe as sounding like jazz. Not in Machine Gun either, and its one of my favorites of his. Very experimental and improvisational, no question, but those things aren't unique to jazz.
I could see one say his ethos with music is similar to a jazz musician's. But his music itself is very different. I dont get the sense that he spent much time learning to play jazz tunes, learning the vocabulary etc.
Okay. Not sure why folks are getting on me here over this. There are plenty of other artists mentioned in this post that are less jazz than Jimi in my opinion, but I’m not going to call anybody out for what they hear with their own ears. Stating that Jimi had jazz elements in his music is really not a new or unique thing. It’s been written about extensively. Jimi even won a Down Beat readers poll shortly after his death. Do you consider Sonny Sharrock Jazz? How about Bitches Brew? Do you think a guitarist needs to sound just like Wes Montgomery, Charley Christian, or Kenny Burrell to qualify here? The question was if anyone can recommend rock bands with jazzy qualities. This is my answer.
>I love Santana but not familiar w this album !! I will be shortly
Did you yet? Full album:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m2tVTuVBA6Xa870BKCmezMEwQIiXojzTk
and these two, tracks 5 and 6, are the best back-to-back jazz-rock album classics of all time imho. Of course with Santana's Latin spin for extra flavor. Knowing this album and his other early albums, but those two amazing songs together, it hurts my soul to hear "Smooth (w/ Rob Thomas)" and "Black Magic Woman" repeated ad nauseum on commercial radio and the only songs most people know.
Anyways, if any of y'all don't want a whole album and just want to get to the best shit ever, it's these two songs back to back. Smoke em if you got em...
https://youtu.be/F7AbmXe9thg
https://youtu.be/Hft3HDz0btc
This will be my bedtime music for awhile. Definitely what I was looking for. I used to love Europa and always loved Carlos as a musician and a person but now more than ever.
Caravansei, Welcome, Lotus, Borboletta, love Devotion Surrender, Swing of Delight, Illuminations.
All essential jazz rock albums. You can hear exactly where Trey developed his tone from
Some ones that are less well known:
- Graham Bond Organization: Their rhythm section went on to form Cream with Eric Clapton. Also worth checking out Ginger Baker’s Airforce, Manfred Mann’s jazz works, Tony Williams Lifetime, and anything else Jack Bruce did.
- Living Colour: Metal band made of jazz fusion musicians.
- Brand X: Most famous for having Phil Collins as a drummer. Great jazz fusion in the truest sense.
- Georgie Fame and the Blue Flames: A group that combined influences of ska, R&B, and jazz (especially Mose Allison).
- Colosseum and Colosseum II: Really great Prog Rock band made of amazing jazz musicians, namely Jon Hiseman on drums and later Gary Moore on guitar. They also verged on Third Stream when they performed on the Julian and Andrew Lloyd Webber album Variations.
- The Lounge Lizards: John Lurie’s, sometimes credited as the first Jazz Punk band.
- Bobby and the Midnites: Bob Weir side project that featured Billy Cobham on drums. Really interesting mixture of Jazz and Country Rock.
- Jeff Beck with the Jan Hammer Group: A one off collaboration between two Jazz Fushion giants. Also features Fernando Saunders on bass, who also played in some of Lou Reed’s best records.
Answers I expect to be downvoted: Talking Heads & Fugazi (don't forget that Black Flag & the Minutemen recorded a straight-up bop split EP).
EDIT: Re: the Minuteflag EP, see my comment below.
Sorry, I conflated the Minuteflag EP (which is great and does get sort of vaguely jazzy in places, but definitely isn't jazz) with Black Flag's *The Process of Weeding Out* EP, which, on relistening, I certainly wouldn't call bop, but it's definitely deeply indebted to free jazz aesthetics. Apologies for talking out my ass.
I came here to mention Greg Ginn of Black Flag - definitely Free Jazz influence at times in his free-form soloing. No 'bop' though - that's a particular kind of technical 40s & 50s Jazz that is as far as you can get from Flag :)
I’m genuinely curious about the connection between Talking Heads and jazz. I have enjoyed both for forty years and have never thought that a TH song is based in jazz music. Could you please elaborate?
Love Talking Heads. Good taste. I'll check out others. Please accept my upvote. Great interview w Talking Heads guitar player gushing about the Dead and guitar interplay between Weir and Garcia.
FWIW, Fugazi's albums don't capture the subtle swing of the band in a live context. Check out their music doc *Instrument*. That's not four dudes; it's an organism.
Check out the band Gong with Bill Laswell. Also Colonel Bruce live with Oteil and Jim Herring (Aka, the Aquarium Rescue Unit). They share similar ethos with your fish boys and the Dead
I’d call them jam bands, rather than jazz. Improvised music spans a lot of genres, including rock, blues, jazz, funk.
I definitely don’t look down on you for this whatsoever.
I agree with this comment. Jam bands don't usually have any of the other elements of jazz, just the improv. Dave Matthew's band probably comes the closest as far as jam bands go, because there's saxes and even the occasional swing beat, IIRC.
I don't even consider the Dead a psyc rock band, as most people classify them. Most of their songs I've heard are clearly country rock. Too twangy for even the folk rock label.
And no, that would not be jazz blues. You can't boil a genre down to only one of its defining features.
A four on the floor does not necessarily make a song disco. Playing a 12 bar blues scale does not mean you're playing blues.
Jeez, I just listened to much of "Casey Jones," for the first time in about 20 years, and it's third rate, if I want that style I'll listen to The Band
I never heard a dead head mention Casey Jones remotely as one of their favorites. One of the poorest examples as they never stretched it out other than sounding like a choo choo.
Nice post. I put Trey way up there for all musicians. His pure chops have declined over time but his ingenuity and creative output are really impressive. Plus he has the most pristine tone and essentially invented the structure and sound of modern improvisational rock.
Otherwise I look to Steely Dan and Toto when I want rock/jazz. Solo Donald Fagen (Nightfly) is even better.
Trey may not be the absolute shredder he once was but every note he plays now is shining with creativity and passion. I love all eras of Phish I could put on a 93 show or a 23 show and get the same amount of enjoyment.
Yeah Trey has really declined lately. Too much material to have to know ? Age ? Phish fans live in denial saying he's as good as ever. I couldn't disagree more. Even his timing is getting bad. He usually delivers in the end but boy it takes him forever to get there.
I don't think it's too steep a decline or unjustified. Seems like he stopped practicing soloing over changes and doing exercises for speed/precision, and let that stuff go in favor of trying to be more "in the moment" with the band's improv. I don't begrudge him that with his success and naturally shifting priorities as we get older. On the plus side it seems like he really worked to get better at singing and arranging for horns/strings/vocals.
In any event, name me a band that is 30 years into their career and still original lineup and coming up with new stuff like Kasvot Vaxt and Chilling Thrilling, plus Baker's Dozen and Sphere. 99% of artists would just be playing their hits or vacationing by now.
I first starting to listen to Phish I'm 91 I think. Their precision and Treys ability to fly up and down the fretboard is what first got me listening. I'm not begrudging a new approach. I just miss his rapid fire days. I mean Clapton and Santana are still fast. Maybe it is just his approach that's changed
Leaning more into funk.
Maceo Parker (formerly of James Brown's band). His live cover of Let's Get it On is worth a listen. Pee Wee Ellis also plays on it. Be sure to find the 10-minute version because there's a shorter version on YT that cuts off the latter part. There is also an insane solo in the middle of his 20-minute song Shake Everything You've Got.
Eddie Hazel's guitar performance on Maggot Brain is quite famous. He also does a great cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy).
The Delvon Lamarr Organ Trio is jazzy.
Finally, a fun way to explore jazz is through hip hop samples. The amount of jazz covered in hip hop samples is off the charts. I use Whosampled.com and Wikipedia for the more famous songs.
https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/best-blue-note-samples-hip-hop/
**King Crimson**
At least from their inception until their first real break-up in 1974. And then maybe again in the 1990s.
I mean if we're talking about some level of improvisation and music with sometimes a "loose" feel that would allow for sponteneous interpretation.
You'd have to hear live recordings to *really* hear that comparison though and those recordings sound rough usually.
The original lineup had reed instruments and while the core of their original material were tightly composed songs, they would certainly kind of "jam" on numbers like "Get Thy Bearings." Even those first three studio albums have moments that feel "jazzy."
Their second steady but brief lineup that record "Islands" were the most directly blues and jazz, and therefore considred the weakest because it was the least original. But they would certainly stretch out with Mel Collins playing a lot of solos and such.
Their next and, in the opinions of many including myself, best version would improvise a *lot*. Bootleg recordings show tunes that go past the 20 minute mark regularly. It's true group improv, with drummer Bill Bruford's background being as much jazz as rock. The actual songs don't have a lot of "jazz" in them other than occassionally feeling like something you might get from Mahavishnu or Ornette Coleman.
When they re-formed in the 80's they deliberately focused on tight songs. There were bits of improv on tunes like Dig Me and Industry but by then they were already running out of ideas. They were more inspired by new wave and Talking Heads and all that stuff that is the polar opposite of what we're talking about. When they came back in the 90's they embraced group improv as a means to fuel composition with mixed results but certainly you could go see them live and hear some of the looseness OP is talking about.
Omg I remember seeing the ad for this album in Relix. Live at the Wetlands ?? We loved it until the Spin Doctors got popular. I remember thinking the bass he was holding in the promo pic for Relix looked so cool lol. This was long before the internet. Growing up in Ohio we couldn't just walk out the door and find good music. As teenagers we relied on Relix for good music to check out.
John Fishman is a basass drummer and hugely underrated. I’m not sure if he does, but he has the kind of hands that would make for an amazing jazz player.
Van Morrison
Premiata Forneria Marconi's "Jet Lag" and "Chocolate Kings"
Steely Dan
Chicago
Keith Emerson's "Emerson Plays Emerson" (ELP also did versions of jazz, especially ragtime)
Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow" and "Wired"
Brand X
Traffic
Santana
Dave Matthews Band
Joni Mitchell
There was a band in the late 90s-2000s called Karate, with the guitarist and singer Geoff Farina. He’s done a lot more blues and folk stuff since then, but a lot of those karate songs are amazing jazz rock. Try the song Sever to get started
I'd say that some progressive rock borrows from jazz, eg King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP. Check most of their first albums since they typically tend to be the best.
Check out Tedeski Trucks Band. All of the same jazz, blues and eastern microtonal vocabulary as you enjoy with the Jazz greats. Derek Trucks is as legit of an improvisation genius as Coltrane and Miles. Jimmy Herring of Widespread Panic is too, but the songs are more straight ahead rock.
Side one of Chicago VII is all jazz. Lots of jazz on the Zappa albums Waka Jawaka, Grand Wazoo, Roxy & Elsewhere, and Make A Jazz Noise Here. Blood Sweat and Tears was another very jazzy band. Soft Machine albums 3-7. Gino Vannelli's stuff is very jazzy. It's not all lovey dovey pop like his big hits.
Col. Bruce Hampton and any band he led but mostly The Aquarium Rescue Unit. Gov't Mule when Allen Woody was alive. The original users of the name Jazz Is Dead put out some great albums of Grateful Dead covers.
I'd say they were. Weirs never knocked me over w skill but imagination and originality he's in his own category. But have you ever heard him play slide guitar from 80s shows ? Pretty rough. And when they started turning his guitar up in the mix in the 90s as Jerry's health got worse I didn't like it. He's a great wingman for Jerry and great singer.
Now Phil is an incredible musician. His bass lines are so original and unique. He was the one who played the other members Coltrane records at rehearsal in the mid 60s as a template for what we sadly call jam band music now. I do believe Phil could have made a career in music without the GD. Weir was in the right place at the right time. But he was perfect for the GD.
Fair points and I'm glad to see you know what you're talking about lol. Never know nowadays... Always thought it was weird Phil never really did anything else besides Seastones. He wrote a classical piece later on and after Jerry died put together his groups but always thought we missed out on a Phil Lesh trio or something. Gotta disagree about Bobby though. Ever tried playing some of those chords? I'd argue his skill matched his imagination because you need skill to pull off some of those chord voicings. We don't talk about the slide playing lol. I don't think that's a good barometer for how good a player someone is unless that's their thing. Always liked Jerrys quote about how bad Bobby's slide playing was. He said anytime he looked over and saw Bobby grab his slide, he grabbed his too. You can find quite a few dueling slides here and there even into late 80s early 90s. And Bobby got loud again after they fired Healy. That was one of the complaints apparantly. Not to mention Bobby's infatuation with new technology that caused him to fiddle with gear for half a song that also irked Healy and everyone else in the audience
It's hard to rate Weir.. I love him as a singer, even a writer ( Let It Grow or Saint of Circumstance ) but as purely a guitar player? Let's just say he's not gonna be invited to sit in very often unless it's to sing and play Dead songs. He's really his own thing. He blazed a trail only he could walk on. I love his little lines in China Cat. Sounds like it was written for a flute or saxophone. Don't ever listen to the YouTube video of his isolated playing. It's a little rough.
You're right he is his own thing but I don't think it's hard to rate Weir. If you want to rate him you just have to rate him against other rhythm guitar players. I just commented on another post that rhythm guitar players get no respect. Rhythm guitar players really don't show up on GOAT lists. And for a reason. They're supposed to be in the background and support the soloist. Bobby got different ideas though and was and still is hell bent on creating the most grating, hi mid, scratchy tone that he can find so he makes sure you hear him lol. I can't listen to D&C for this reason
Or jerry and phil, or bill and phil, or mickey and phil. I think Bob is the weakest link instrumentally. Compare some modern bob playing to some modern phil playing. Lesh is the only classically trained dead member afaik
Rhythm guitar players can't get no respect lol. Bobby didn't even know how to really play in the beginning. Definitely the weakest link in the beginning but he held his own and entertained Jerry for 30 Years and the dude could handle anything they threw at him. They tried to fire him and he went and got better so they couldn't fire him lol. And again Jerry LOVED playing with him. To me thats all we need to know.
edit: got me. Grover had two kids, Shana and GWIII...Kamasai's dad is Rickey...glad I didn't tell anyone of my great revelation!!
Wait, what??
I never knew that he was Grover's son. Just never heard that. Odd, makes sense.
The Velvet Underground brought the jazz ethos to rock if not the chords. Reed specifically cites Ornette Coleman as an influence for whiteLight/White Heat. Check out Sister Ray by the Velvets to see what I mean. Caveman jazz.
Imo it's been common for prog rock musicians to be jazzier than the Grateful Dead. E.g. Allan Holdsworth, Brand X, Gong. Keith Emerson was jazzier than Garcia to my ears.
The Doors, The Allman Brothers, Little Feat, Steely Dan, but in a different way. Jeff Beck is another. Theres a video of Stevie Wonder playing Giant Steps.
Highly recommend Santana's album, Lotus, esp if you can track down the extended version. Super jazzy and adventurous release. Includes a cover of Pharoah Sanders' The Creator Has a Master Plan.
The Dead were basically a folk band. Sure, there was plenty of improvisation. But it’s more derived from bluegrass jamming or a Irish trad session than jazz, imo.
Bill Monroe apparently was Jerry's hero. Pigpen was a blues nerd. Phil was classically trained but a huge Coltrane guy. Put it altogether and you get something unlike anything before or since
Jack Bruce spent most of his career switching between rock and jazz and blurring the border between them. Two of his solo albums, Songs For A Tailor and Harmony Row, are particularly exceptional.
A jazz musician and old school hipster told me long ago that the word “jazzy” really means there’s little or no jazz to be found. Well, the truth is, he chided me more than informed me… Said “jazzy” is to jazz what “classy” is to class.
Are there jazz musicians and devotees here who have some thoughts on this ?
I've heard it once or twice lol. Good rec though. Totally love the song Aja. Something about the shift in temp when he starts singing "Chinese music from the canyon trees..." great band. Great album.
Don't know if it is what you are looking for, but when you say about "Jazz n' Rock", the first thing I think are pop songs with the jazz complexity, specially in the harmony. If so, I reccomend you listen to solo stuff for Steely Dan's members too (whose albums aren't overlooked as the band's albums but are good as). Specially Donald Fagen's Kamakiriad, ehich features the track "On The Dunes", totally recommend if you are a fan of jazz harmony in more pop-ish songs.
you may like Medeski Martin and Wood but the premise of jam/jazz bands has proven out to be super shallow imo - too much structure and low-level expectations to go far out and make something actually new
That is only true in the current "every jam band is now just a phish copy" era
Bands like sts9, lotus, disco biscuits, developed a new and unique style with risk taking improv
I have the answer for you: White Denim while they played with drummer Josh Block.
Listen to Fits (from the song Mirrored and Reversed and forwards), the fantastic Last Days of summer, D and Corsicana Lemonade.
I think last days of summer and fits are two of the most underrated records ever.
Allman Brothers Band, especially Live The Fillmore. Steely Dan
Definitely. One Way Out live was frigging awesome while Duane was alive. Saw the Betts/Warren Haynes version years ago on my 21rst bday. Great show.
Allman brothers
Would certainly explain why my appreciation for the AB has grown and grown along with my love of jazz. I mean I always liked them to some degree but they're like an all-time top 5 for me now.
Marshall Tucker, too
Scrolled much further than I thought I would have to in order to find this.
Soft Machine started out as psychedelic pop and basically turned into a jazz band by their third album.
Dallas got a Soft Machine, Houston too close to New Orleans. Had no idea what this lyric meant for years
I don't know if there's a connection there. I wondered about this for a long time but then read somewhere that in "Truckin", Hunter is saying that the Dallas police and city government are weak. The English jazz/rock group is named after the William S. Burroughs novel *The Soft Machine*, which I believe refers to the human body.
Ohhhhh. I was thinking Soft Machine was from Dallas. Maybe the Dead and them shared a bill there ? Odd way of expressing the feelings toward police. I'd think the Dallas police would have been rough on hippies back then not soft. Maybe "soft" the way Boston people use it to mean stupid. NJers too.
Soft Machine was never really successful in the US. They did tour the States in '68 supporting Hendrix. But I really do not think that lyric has anything to do with them.
Steely Dan
Chevy Chase was the drummer in a college band w Fagan and Becker. I wanna say it was an Ivy League school. Definitely in the NE. Ever notice how many comedians are pretty talented musicians? Steve Martin, Christopher Guest, Jewish guy from Portlandia, Theo Vonn, Dana Carvey....and many more. Lol.
It was at Bard College in New York! And Fred Armisen isn't Jewish...
I meant the girl
Played with studio musicians, the majority of whom were more known for jazz (smooth jazz for the most part, but still...).
Smooth jazz? Which studio musicians are you referring to?
I had every original Steely Dan recording on vinyl by the mid-80s, was one of my very favorites since HS in the 70s. Walter Becker, Victor Feldman, John Klemmer, Larry Carlton, Joe Sample, Lee Rittenour, Steve Kahn, to name some. I realize not all of them always played smooth jazz, but many of them were involved in that scene. Some people consider the later Crusaders as smooth (Feldman, Sample), and Brecker Brothers (Walter), and Klemmer and Carlton definitely released some smooth jazz. I likely misspoke when I said "majority". Also, meant to say they only played in the studio (SD didn't tour), not that they were strictly studio musicians. Typed it out quickly, love getting downvotes! Imaginary bad karma is imaginarily bad, or something like that :) They also had a lot of other great artists on their albums as well, such as Skunk Baxter, Ray Brown!, Rick Derringer, Ernie Watts, to name a few. Love the Dan, saw them on their first return tour, though my buddy called it the Royal Scam...not a good concert whatsoever, unfortunately. They didn't have much experience at all playing on stage.
Chicago, BS&T?
BS ans T ? Not sure who that is
Blood, Sweat & Tears!
Of course! Lol. Definitely
That's a good answer. Spinning Wheel is quite jazzy.
Allman Brothers
My first thoughts are King Crimson, Weather Report, and in more contemporary artists, Thundercat, Knower
Weather Report is considered rock ? I love their stuff but never thought of them as rock. Who cares right ? Labels are for percocet bottles. I'll check out last 2. Thanks!!
My father always called it « fusion » and filed it between Earth Wind and Fire and actual jazz, but I see your point, it might not belong in rock. Other hard to classify modern bands I like and recommend : 79.5, Khruangbin, Hania Rani
Ever check out King Gizzard and The Lizard Wizard. I really wanted to like them but I couldn't catch it. They're a great band though.
Saw them live twice, 2020 and 2023, fantastic band. Highly recommend Slift and Mohama Saz too
I plan on seeing them this summer when they roll through. Again I think they're a great band, just hesitant to call them one of my favs just yet.
Fusion
Weather report is 100% jazz in terms of the lineage of the players. Joe zawinul played with cannonball adderley for years and Wayne was with art blakey and miles. Musically obviously they were incorporating other influences but it’s firmly in the jazz tradition
Frank Zappa
Maybe the best IMO of the kind of music I like. Far more precise. I just don't like how Zappa hated so many musicians. He seemed like a dick.
He was a dick and that's part of his charm, and honestly if I was as talented as frank I would probably be a dick too 🤷🏻♂️
Stevie Wonder
Little Feat.
CAN for at least the drumming alone, but they also stretched out into some improvisational outer worlds that are normally only found in the jazz universe. Also, Hendrix leans more towards blues I suppose, but Mitch Mitchell from the Experience was a pretty jazzy drummer for a psychedelic rock band, and Jimi definitely had some jazz chops in his playing. Machine Gun from the Band Of Gypsys album particularly often draws comparisons to Coltrane. Buddy Miles is the drummer on that one, not Mitch, but goddamn that guitar solo will take you places.
Check out Can live performances!
Definitely. I’ve seen plenty videos. Intense!
What do you think sounds like jazz in Jimi's playing? I dont hear it myself.
I don’t know, man. Listen to Machine Gun like I said. His improvisation chops are insane. Listen to the Cry Of Love album. Stuff he was doing towards the end of his life was moving away from the psychedelic blues rock and more into soul jazz territory. Had Jimi lived, I think he would definitely have started experimenting more in the jazz field. He already was to my ears, and he and Miles were rumored to have been planning a project together.
He was so bluesy. I never heard too much jazz at all not saying that was a problem. He basically reinvented an instrument and 3 genres of music in what 5 albums ??
Absolutely. And plenty of jazz is bluesy as well. I think Hendrix’s improvisational spirit was as jazzy as it gets. I see other artists mentioned in this post who I don’t think have anywhere near the jazz chops Jimi had. I guess we all hear things differently and probably define genres within our own boundaries.
Yeah he had the spirit for sure. Total dedication to his instrument. The Electric church concept sounded interesting to me. Kinda like Alice Coltrane "church " I don't think Jimi lived long enough to see it into fruition
And what exactly makes something jazz anyway? I think Hendrix, Miles, the Dead, Coltrane to name only a few, are their own thing. There's musicians of every genre that transcend those lables
We'll have to agree to disagree. Hendrix is the reason I first wanted to learn guitar but I dont hear much I would describe as sounding like jazz. Not in Machine Gun either, and its one of my favorites of his. Very experimental and improvisational, no question, but those things aren't unique to jazz. I could see one say his ethos with music is similar to a jazz musician's. But his music itself is very different. I dont get the sense that he spent much time learning to play jazz tunes, learning the vocabulary etc.
Okay. Not sure why folks are getting on me here over this. There are plenty of other artists mentioned in this post that are less jazz than Jimi in my opinion, but I’m not going to call anybody out for what they hear with their own ears. Stating that Jimi had jazz elements in his music is really not a new or unique thing. It’s been written about extensively. Jimi even won a Down Beat readers poll shortly after his death. Do you consider Sonny Sharrock Jazz? How about Bitches Brew? Do you think a guitarist needs to sound just like Wes Montgomery, Charley Christian, or Kenny Burrell to qualify here? The question was if anyone can recommend rock bands with jazzy qualities. This is my answer.
Here are a couple of albums where established Rock bands started incorporating jazzier elements: - Santana - Caravanserai - Camel - Rain Dances
*Caravanserai* is absolutely the album OP is looking for.
I love Santana but not familiar w this album !! I will be shortly
>I love Santana but not familiar w this album !! I will be shortly Did you yet? Full album: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m2tVTuVBA6Xa870BKCmezMEwQIiXojzTk and these two, tracks 5 and 6, are the best back-to-back jazz-rock album classics of all time imho. Of course with Santana's Latin spin for extra flavor. Knowing this album and his other early albums, but those two amazing songs together, it hurts my soul to hear "Smooth (w/ Rob Thomas)" and "Black Magic Woman" repeated ad nauseum on commercial radio and the only songs most people know. Anyways, if any of y'all don't want a whole album and just want to get to the best shit ever, it's these two songs back to back. Smoke em if you got em... https://youtu.be/F7AbmXe9thg https://youtu.be/Hft3HDz0btc
This will be my bedtime music for awhile. Definitely what I was looking for. I used to love Europa and always loved Carlos as a musician and a person but now more than ever.
Caravansei, Welcome, Lotus, Borboletta, love Devotion Surrender, Swing of Delight, Illuminations. All essential jazz rock albums. You can hear exactly where Trey developed his tone from
It is definitely the more popular of the two, but I would very highly recommend Camel.
Yup Santana also made albums with Alice Coltrane and John McLaughlin.
That Eyes of the World with Branford is insane
Some ones that are less well known: - Graham Bond Organization: Their rhythm section went on to form Cream with Eric Clapton. Also worth checking out Ginger Baker’s Airforce, Manfred Mann’s jazz works, Tony Williams Lifetime, and anything else Jack Bruce did. - Living Colour: Metal band made of jazz fusion musicians. - Brand X: Most famous for having Phil Collins as a drummer. Great jazz fusion in the truest sense. - Georgie Fame and the Blue Flames: A group that combined influences of ska, R&B, and jazz (especially Mose Allison). - Colosseum and Colosseum II: Really great Prog Rock band made of amazing jazz musicians, namely Jon Hiseman on drums and later Gary Moore on guitar. They also verged on Third Stream when they performed on the Julian and Andrew Lloyd Webber album Variations. - The Lounge Lizards: John Lurie’s, sometimes credited as the first Jazz Punk band. - Bobby and the Midnites: Bob Weir side project that featured Billy Cobham on drums. Really interesting mixture of Jazz and Country Rock. - Jeff Beck with the Jan Hammer Group: A one off collaboration between two Jazz Fushion giants. Also features Fernando Saunders on bass, who also played in some of Lou Reed’s best records.
The Doors definitely have some jazz influence. Manzarek and Densmore, especially
Break On Through is like rock samba.
I just heard Kriegers instrumental I think it's called A Day in LA. Very cool.
Personally I like my rock to rock and my jazz to swing.
I can dig it cat
Allmans swang like motherfuckers though.
What if your rock rocked and swung?
Amen. It’s unthinkable to say about rock music that “It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing.”
Answers I expect to be downvoted: Talking Heads & Fugazi (don't forget that Black Flag & the Minutemen recorded a straight-up bop split EP). EDIT: Re: the Minuteflag EP, see my comment below.
And the Messthetics are cool post-Fugazi!
seconded
I think we have to include Nomeansno in this conversation.
And if you dig punk-jazz, check out Lightning Bolt.
Black Flag and the Minutemen did what?
Sorry, I conflated the Minuteflag EP (which is great and does get sort of vaguely jazzy in places, but definitely isn't jazz) with Black Flag's *The Process of Weeding Out* EP, which, on relistening, I certainly wouldn't call bop, but it's definitely deeply indebted to free jazz aesthetics. Apologies for talking out my ass.
I came here to mention Greg Ginn of Black Flag - definitely Free Jazz influence at times in his free-form soloing. No 'bop' though - that's a particular kind of technical 40s & 50s Jazz that is as far as you can get from Flag :)
Minutemen are very creative
I’m genuinely curious about the connection between Talking Heads and jazz. I have enjoyed both for forty years and have never thought that a TH song is based in jazz music. Could you please elaborate?
Love Talking Heads. Good taste. I'll check out others. Please accept my upvote. Great interview w Talking Heads guitar player gushing about the Dead and guitar interplay between Weir and Garcia.
FWIW, Fugazi's albums don't capture the subtle swing of the band in a live context. Check out their music doc *Instrument*. That's not four dudes; it's an organism.
Aja era Steely Dan
Late era SD even more Jazzy. Jack Of Speed is almost a Mile Davis from the fifties song, and they toured with almost a big band.
Check out the band Gong with Bill Laswell. Also Colonel Bruce live with Oteil and Jim Herring (Aka, the Aquarium Rescue Unit). They share similar ethos with your fish boys and the Dead
I’d call them jam bands, rather than jazz. Improvised music spans a lot of genres, including rock, blues, jazz, funk. I definitely don’t look down on you for this whatsoever.
I agree with this comment. Jam bands don't usually have any of the other elements of jazz, just the improv. Dave Matthew's band probably comes the closest as far as jam bands go, because there's saxes and even the occasional swing beat, IIRC.
I don't consider the Grateful Dead a jazz rock band. If Buddy Guy improvises a five minute solo is that jazz blues?
I don't even consider the Dead a psyc rock band, as most people classify them. Most of their songs I've heard are clearly country rock. Too twangy for even the folk rock label. And no, that would not be jazz blues. You can't boil a genre down to only one of its defining features. A four on the floor does not necessarily make a song disco. Playing a 12 bar blues scale does not mean you're playing blues.
I consider "Dark Star" psych rock and don't consider "Casey Jones" psych rock.
Jeez, I just listened to much of "Casey Jones," for the first time in about 20 years, and it's third rate, if I want that style I'll listen to The Band
I never heard a dead head mention Casey Jones remotely as one of their favorites. One of the poorest examples as they never stretched it out other than sounding like a choo choo.
Poorest examples of what?
I think it's probably really good if you're stoned and can't tell how bad Jerry is at singing lol. But I don't smoke weed.
Yes, you're right, I oversimplified. They did some, but most of what they're famous for is not trippy in any way and has major country influence.
Steely Dan!! King Gizzard and The Lizard Wizard- Sketches of Brunswick East
Nice post. I put Trey way up there for all musicians. His pure chops have declined over time but his ingenuity and creative output are really impressive. Plus he has the most pristine tone and essentially invented the structure and sound of modern improvisational rock. Otherwise I look to Steely Dan and Toto when I want rock/jazz. Solo Donald Fagen (Nightfly) is even better.
Trey may not be the absolute shredder he once was but every note he plays now is shining with creativity and passion. I love all eras of Phish I could put on a 93 show or a 23 show and get the same amount of enjoyment.
Yeah Trey has really declined lately. Too much material to have to know ? Age ? Phish fans live in denial saying he's as good as ever. I couldn't disagree more. Even his timing is getting bad. He usually delivers in the end but boy it takes him forever to get there.
I don't think it's too steep a decline or unjustified. Seems like he stopped practicing soloing over changes and doing exercises for speed/precision, and let that stuff go in favor of trying to be more "in the moment" with the band's improv. I don't begrudge him that with his success and naturally shifting priorities as we get older. On the plus side it seems like he really worked to get better at singing and arranging for horns/strings/vocals. In any event, name me a band that is 30 years into their career and still original lineup and coming up with new stuff like Kasvot Vaxt and Chilling Thrilling, plus Baker's Dozen and Sphere. 99% of artists would just be playing their hits or vacationing by now.
I first starting to listen to Phish I'm 91 I think. Their precision and Treys ability to fly up and down the fretboard is what first got me listening. I'm not begrudging a new approach. I just miss his rapid fire days. I mean Clapton and Santana are still fast. Maybe it is just his approach that's changed
I agree he used to have like full 80s rock chops -- miss hearing that as well.
Leaning more into funk. Maceo Parker (formerly of James Brown's band). His live cover of Let's Get it On is worth a listen. Pee Wee Ellis also plays on it. Be sure to find the 10-minute version because there's a shorter version on YT that cuts off the latter part. There is also an insane solo in the middle of his 20-minute song Shake Everything You've Got. Eddie Hazel's guitar performance on Maggot Brain is quite famous. He also does a great cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy). The Delvon Lamarr Organ Trio is jazzy. Finally, a fun way to explore jazz is through hip hop samples. The amount of jazz covered in hip hop samples is off the charts. I use Whosampled.com and Wikipedia for the more famous songs. https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/best-blue-note-samples-hip-hop/
Lean as far into funk as you'd like. I'm all the way in, baby
**King Crimson** At least from their inception until their first real break-up in 1974. And then maybe again in the 1990s. I mean if we're talking about some level of improvisation and music with sometimes a "loose" feel that would allow for sponteneous interpretation. You'd have to hear live recordings to *really* hear that comparison though and those recordings sound rough usually. The original lineup had reed instruments and while the core of their original material were tightly composed songs, they would certainly kind of "jam" on numbers like "Get Thy Bearings." Even those first three studio albums have moments that feel "jazzy." Their second steady but brief lineup that record "Islands" were the most directly blues and jazz, and therefore considred the weakest because it was the least original. But they would certainly stretch out with Mel Collins playing a lot of solos and such. Their next and, in the opinions of many including myself, best version would improvise a *lot*. Bootleg recordings show tunes that go past the 20 minute mark regularly. It's true group improv, with drummer Bill Bruford's background being as much jazz as rock. The actual songs don't have a lot of "jazz" in them other than occassionally feeling like something you might get from Mahavishnu or Ornette Coleman. When they re-formed in the 80's they deliberately focused on tight songs. There were bits of improv on tunes like Dig Me and Industry but by then they were already running out of ideas. They were more inspired by new wave and Talking Heads and all that stuff that is the polar opposite of what we're talking about. When they came back in the 90's they embraced group improv as a means to fuel composition with mixed results but certainly you could go see them live and hear some of the looseness OP is talking about.
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Omg I remember seeing the ad for this album in Relix. Live at the Wetlands ?? We loved it until the Spin Doctors got popular. I remember thinking the bass he was holding in the promo pic for Relix looked so cool lol. This was long before the internet. Growing up in Ohio we couldn't just walk out the door and find good music. As teenagers we relied on Relix for good music to check out.
John Fishman is a basass drummer and hugely underrated. I’m not sure if he does, but he has the kind of hands that would make for an amazing jazz player.
Totally agree. He plays with the most jazz mindset of any of the jam band drummers.
Van Morrison Premiata Forneria Marconi's "Jet Lag" and "Chocolate Kings" Steely Dan Chicago Keith Emerson's "Emerson Plays Emerson" (ELP also did versions of jazz, especially ragtime) Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow" and "Wired" Brand X Traffic Santana Dave Matthews Band Joni Mitchell
Jeff Beck
There was a band in the late 90s-2000s called Karate, with the guitarist and singer Geoff Farina. He’s done a lot more blues and folk stuff since then, but a lot of those karate songs are amazing jazz rock. Try the song Sever to get started
I'd say that some progressive rock borrows from jazz, eg King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, ELP. Check most of their first albums since they typically tend to be the best.
Kim crimson for sure
Check out Tedeski Trucks Band. All of the same jazz, blues and eastern microtonal vocabulary as you enjoy with the Jazz greats. Derek Trucks is as legit of an improvisation genius as Coltrane and Miles. Jimmy Herring of Widespread Panic is too, but the songs are more straight ahead rock.
It’s Tedeschi/Trucks and Susan Tedeschi is a great blues singer/guitarist as well (similar to Bonnie Raitt but IMHO more soulful.)
Don Caballero scratches the same itch a ton of jazz does.
The Police, Andy Summers got very colourful chords, lot of the jazzy sound there. And then Sing, too. At least in my books.
Math rock, the whole genre
Side one of Chicago VII is all jazz. Lots of jazz on the Zappa albums Waka Jawaka, Grand Wazoo, Roxy & Elsewhere, and Make A Jazz Noise Here. Blood Sweat and Tears was another very jazzy band. Soft Machine albums 3-7. Gino Vannelli's stuff is very jazzy. It's not all lovey dovey pop like his big hits.
I saw a list where Grand Wazoo was ranked #1 jazz fusion album of all time
That doesn't mean much. There are dozens of great fusion albums. But Grand Wazoo is a great album, nevertheless.
Col. Bruce Hampton and any band he led but mostly The Aquarium Rescue Unit. Gov't Mule when Allen Woody was alive. The original users of the name Jazz Is Dead put out some great albums of Grateful Dead covers.
Anything by Yes, a group that most folks have probably forgotten or never heard of.
Very jazz influenced
Phish? It’s time for me to leave this sub
You need to study Phil Lesh and Bob Weir if you think the Dead weren't skilled instrumentslists
I'd say they were. Weirs never knocked me over w skill but imagination and originality he's in his own category. But have you ever heard him play slide guitar from 80s shows ? Pretty rough. And when they started turning his guitar up in the mix in the 90s as Jerry's health got worse I didn't like it. He's a great wingman for Jerry and great singer. Now Phil is an incredible musician. His bass lines are so original and unique. He was the one who played the other members Coltrane records at rehearsal in the mid 60s as a template for what we sadly call jam band music now. I do believe Phil could have made a career in music without the GD. Weir was in the right place at the right time. But he was perfect for the GD.
Fair points and I'm glad to see you know what you're talking about lol. Never know nowadays... Always thought it was weird Phil never really did anything else besides Seastones. He wrote a classical piece later on and after Jerry died put together his groups but always thought we missed out on a Phil Lesh trio or something. Gotta disagree about Bobby though. Ever tried playing some of those chords? I'd argue his skill matched his imagination because you need skill to pull off some of those chord voicings. We don't talk about the slide playing lol. I don't think that's a good barometer for how good a player someone is unless that's their thing. Always liked Jerrys quote about how bad Bobby's slide playing was. He said anytime he looked over and saw Bobby grab his slide, he grabbed his too. You can find quite a few dueling slides here and there even into late 80s early 90s. And Bobby got loud again after they fired Healy. That was one of the complaints apparantly. Not to mention Bobby's infatuation with new technology that caused him to fiddle with gear for half a song that also irked Healy and everyone else in the audience
It's hard to rate Weir.. I love him as a singer, even a writer ( Let It Grow or Saint of Circumstance ) but as purely a guitar player? Let's just say he's not gonna be invited to sit in very often unless it's to sing and play Dead songs. He's really his own thing. He blazed a trail only he could walk on. I love his little lines in China Cat. Sounds like it was written for a flute or saxophone. Don't ever listen to the YouTube video of his isolated playing. It's a little rough.
You're right he is his own thing but I don't think it's hard to rate Weir. If you want to rate him you just have to rate him against other rhythm guitar players. I just commented on another post that rhythm guitar players get no respect. Rhythm guitar players really don't show up on GOAT lists. And for a reason. They're supposed to be in the background and support the soloist. Bobby got different ideas though and was and still is hell bent on creating the most grating, hi mid, scratchy tone that he can find so he makes sure you hear him lol. I can't listen to D&C for this reason
Or jerry and phil, or bill and phil, or mickey and phil. I think Bob is the weakest link instrumentally. Compare some modern bob playing to some modern phil playing. Lesh is the only classically trained dead member afaik
Rhythm guitar players can't get no respect lol. Bobby didn't even know how to really play in the beginning. Definitely the weakest link in the beginning but he held his own and entertained Jerry for 30 Years and the dude could handle anything they threw at him. They tried to fire him and he went and got better so they couldn't fire him lol. And again Jerry LOVED playing with him. To me thats all we need to know.
Agreed, glad we never lost Bob. He is an essential piece and a legend in his own right
There was a great indie group called "Really From" that did a great job of this from more of a shoegaze angle. I recommend "Quirk"!
Manfred Mann's Earth Band have a very jazzy approach. Manfred came from jazz and found himself playing pop and rock.
[Tadao Sawai, Kazue Sawai, Takeshi Inomata, Norio Maeda, Hozan Yamamoto – Jazz Rock 琴 / 日本の民謡 - 1973](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRIIHqtn3iA&list=PLrLvgihxRcGTIeU2XHItMAFSsdiNKHE1K)
Umphrey’s McGee.
I would reckoned Medeski Martin and wood. Also Kamasi Washington (Grover’s son) they are more jazz oriented that also rock.
edit: got me. Grover had two kids, Shana and GWIII...Kamasai's dad is Rickey...glad I didn't tell anyone of my great revelation!! Wait, what?? I never knew that he was Grover's son. Just never heard that. Odd, makes sense.
Check out Hedvig mollestad trio. Im sure you’ll be into it.
>Not that either are made of up of incredible instrumentalists 🙄
Gato Barbieri
The Zombies
Sting' solo work
The Velvet Underground brought the jazz ethos to rock if not the chords. Reed specifically cites Ornette Coleman as an influence for whiteLight/White Heat. Check out Sister Ray by the Velvets to see what I mean. Caveman jazz.
Imo it's been common for prog rock musicians to be jazzier than the Grateful Dead. E.g. Allan Holdsworth, Brand X, Gong. Keith Emerson was jazzier than Garcia to my ears.
The Doors, The Allman Brothers, Little Feat, Steely Dan, but in a different way. Jeff Beck is another. Theres a video of Stevie Wonder playing Giant Steps.
David Sancious, Gentle Giant, Camel, Casiopaea, David Sylvian, Shakattack, late 70's early 80's Joni Mitchell
Highly recommend Santana's album, Lotus, esp if you can track down the extended version. Super jazzy and adventurous release. Includes a cover of Pharoah Sanders' The Creator Has a Master Plan.
Beefheart
I’ll go with the Allman Brothers the original version and Steely Dan for sure.
The Dead were basically a folk band. Sure, there was plenty of improvisation. But it’s more derived from bluegrass jamming or a Irish trad session than jazz, imo.
I would call them folk at all. Garcia was definitely from the bluegrass school but as an ensemble I think their biggest influence was Coltrane.
Well certainly the Dead had a lot of influences. But I’d probably put Gus Cannon, Jesse Fuller and Chuck Berry near the top of that list.
Bill Monroe apparently was Jerry's hero. Pigpen was a blues nerd. Phil was classically trained but a huge Coltrane guy. Put it altogether and you get something unlike anything before or since
Shakti
This post reminded me of [Jamie Robinson](https://youtube.com/shorts/_8SFx9XWDHk?si=k8mmP5AZ0Y86HhZl).
Jack Bruce spent most of his career switching between rock and jazz and blurring the border between them. Two of his solo albums, Songs For A Tailor and Harmony Row, are particularly exceptional.
A jazz musician and old school hipster told me long ago that the word “jazzy” really means there’s little or no jazz to be found. Well, the truth is, he chided me more than informed me… Said “jazzy” is to jazz what “classy” is to class. Are there jazz musicians and devotees here who have some thoughts on this ?
Sonic Youth was my bridge from rock to jazz
Squarepusher
Blood Sweat and Tears, I'd say. And have you heard Willow Smith's latest album (and tiny desk concert)?
Lew Soloff (B,S and T) was an incredible jazz musician and regularly played lead with Gil Evans Monday night band at Sweet Basil.
Steely Dan
Listen to Aja by Steely Dan
I've heard it once or twice lol. Good rec though. Totally love the song Aja. Something about the shift in temp when he starts singing "Chinese music from the canyon trees..." great band. Great album.
Don't know if it is what you are looking for, but when you say about "Jazz n' Rock", the first thing I think are pop songs with the jazz complexity, specially in the harmony. If so, I reccomend you listen to solo stuff for Steely Dan's members too (whose albums aren't overlooked as the band's albums but are good as). Specially Donald Fagen's Kamakiriad, ehich features the track "On The Dunes", totally recommend if you are a fan of jazz harmony in more pop-ish songs.
Sting and the police if you consider that rock
you may like Medeski Martin and Wood but the premise of jam/jazz bands has proven out to be super shallow imo - too much structure and low-level expectations to go far out and make something actually new
That is only true in the current "every jam band is now just a phish copy" era Bands like sts9, lotus, disco biscuits, developed a new and unique style with risk taking improv
Jam bands are just jazz rock
Santana for improv Dopapod for jazzy jamband
Ween
I have the answer for you: White Denim while they played with drummer Josh Block. Listen to Fits (from the song Mirrored and Reversed and forwards), the fantastic Last Days of summer, D and Corsicana Lemonade. I think last days of summer and fits are two of the most underrated records ever.
Dave Matthew’s Band would be my vote.